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View Full Version : Renegade Grey Knights...*No you didn't* *Yes I did!*



jma037
25-08-2007, 05:50
Okay...Let's stick with the Canon that NO Grey Knight has ever fall to chaos and they are not about to anytime soon...BUT!

Can they go Renegade? Keep in mind that renegade /= fall to chaos.

Can any of you think up any reasons that a GK will go Renegade?

Or is the idea of a renegade GK equivalent to female space marines?

Comments, Ideas, Suggestions!

High Marshal Trenth
25-08-2007, 06:10
If they havent fallen in the past then what gives you thought that they might in the future? Seems to me that they are doing a good job at keepin them kept under the Emperors wing.

jma037
25-08-2007, 06:25
Where did it say that Grey Knights was never fallen? They were never fallen to Chaos...
It doesn't mean that one or two didn't figure out that the current Imperium was not what the Emperor intended and decided to go fight chaos on his own for the emperor.

Loyal to the Emperor? Yes!
Fighting Chaos? Yes!
Renegade in the eyes of the Imperium? Yes!

Why not?

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 06:28
Where did it say that Grey Knights was never fallen? They were never fallen to Chaos...
It doesn't mean that one or two didn't figure out that the current Imperium was not what the Emperor intended and decided to go fight chaos on his own for the emperor.

Loyal to the Emperor? Yes!
Fighting Chaos? Yes!
Renegade in the eyes of the Imperium? Yes!

Why not?

Well the thing is in order to work with the Inquisition they have to go through countless purity tests and such that if it was likely that one was to do so they woldn't become a Grey Knight.

High Marshal Trenth
25-08-2007, 06:32
And the fact that they can smell uncertainty from a lightyear away. Smell disloyalty, deciet and whatever else they may believe may be the making of a heretic/tratoir. IF and only IF a grey knight ever came close to this they would be destroyed in a heart beat.

jma037
25-08-2007, 06:33
Since when are any of the Imperium's "procedures" perfect?
I just think that the idea that they are 100% pure is stupid idea. I mean if Fulgrim didn't manage to achieve perfection, what are the chances of the inquisition achieving perfection in their training?
I don't want to go as far as having grey knights all to chaos...but say a Grey Night was by himself for a long time (numerous possibilities)...surely renegade is POSSIBLE?

High Marshal Trenth
25-08-2007, 06:36
Think of it this way. Fulgrim had some seriouse issues. For one he was a megalomaniac, self centered and well just thought he was the beez neez and everyone else should bow before him. When the big "I" pull canidates for the grey knights they make damn sure that they are free of any sort of taint. Including the above. Plus they are practically brainwashed over and over again until there isnt much of their mind left, then they build up from there.

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 06:37
Since when are any of the Imperium's "procedures" perfect?
I just think that the idea that they are 100% pure is stupid idea. I mean if Fulgrim didn't manage to achieve perfection, what are the chances of the inquisition achieving perfection in their training?
I don't want to go as far as having grey knights all to chaos...but say a Grey Night was by himself for a long time (numerous possibilities)...surely renegade is POSSIBLE?

But the second the Grey Knight did anything close to heretical the Inquisition would of executed him. Just think of the Greyknight as an organized crime family and the Emperor is the crime boss and Chaos are the feds. The second the Greyknight even mentions ratting on Crimeboss Emperor he would be sleeping with the fishes, if you catch my drift.

jma037
25-08-2007, 06:41
No...I didn't meant that he will be actively fighting the Imperium...
I'm thinking about a grey knight walking into the sunset and fighting Chaos by himself. No longer wanting to be a part of the chapter(corrupted Imperium).

Say somehow he got accessed to the Black Library and the truth was shown to him..etc

High Marshal Trenth
25-08-2007, 06:47
Well, ;) gaining access to the black library is far more likely for someone than a grey knight turing his attention away from the Imperium of man and walkin off into the sunset. Get my drift on how unlikely this would happen? Even if there was once some grey knight that somehow got past the mindscrubbing and the mental shields that kept him in check and saw the wrongs of the Imperium, the big "I" would have him dead before he knew it.

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 06:50
Well, ;) gaining access to the black library is far more likely for someone than a grey knight turing his attention away from the Imperium of man and walkin off into the sunset. Get my drift on how unlikely this would happen? Even if there was once some grey knight that somehow got past the mindscrubbing and the mental shields that kept him in check and saw the wrongs of the Imperium, the big "I" would have him dead before he knew it.

Exactly this is my exact theory.

jma037
25-08-2007, 07:00
Damn it! I just watched Bourne Ultimatum and I want my Grey Knight hero to wake up after a massive battle with a Daemon , alone and with no memory of what or who he is...
When he finally find out that he's a Grey Knight...He is now...David Webb.

How that for an idea?

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 07:04
Damn it! I just watched Bourne Ultimatum and I want my Grey Knight hero to wake up after a massive battle with a Daemon , alone and with no memory of what or who he is...
When he finally find out that he's a Grey Knight...He is now...David Webb.

How that for an idea?

Maybe it would work. So what happened that caused him to lose his memory elaborate please.

jma037
25-08-2007, 07:04
Just to clarify my idea.
1)Hero fighting Daemon in Eye of terror
2)Big final battle
3)Massive explosion of psychic power as the daemon is slain.
4)Hero wakes up alone and with no memory of what or who he is
5)Travel the length of the galaxy to find out.
6)Meet friends etc along the way and rediscovers his humanity.
7)Find out that he's in fact Grey Knight.
8)Not liking what he finds and walks off into the sunset.

Workable?

Khaine's Messenger
25-08-2007, 07:05
Can any of you think up any reasons that a GK will go Renegade?

I can think of reasons that a GK might be considered to be renegade. To be sure, the GK are not exactly a widely known force, and ignorance is one of the driving factors for a lot of the Imperium's internecine conflicts. This was one of the plot points of the novel Grey Knights, where a Chaos-tainted Inquisitor was able to convince various planetary authorities that the Grey Knights were in fact renegades. Doing much convincing on an interplanetary or inter-system level would probably grow complicated, though.

However, instances of GK actually going renegade would be odd. While it is possible to disappear into the faceless masses of the Imperium or the cold void of space if you wish to do so, it would be a hard sell to convince a Grey Knight that they could accomplish their mission without the support of the Inquisition and their battle brothers. And the idea of a "corrupt Imperium" is one they already endorse; after all, correcting for that is part of the reason for their existence.

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 07:18
Just to clarify my idea.
1)Hero fighting Daemon in Eye of terror
2)Big final battle
3)Massive explosion of psychic power as the daemon is slain.
4)Hero wakes up alone and with no memory of what or who he is
5)Travel the length of the galaxy to find out.
6)Meet friends etc along the way and rediscovers his humanity.
7)Find out that he's in fact Grey Knight.
8)Not liking what he finds and walks off into the sunset.

Workable?

I guess it's workable my problem is that chances are the Imperium would find him and kill him the only way he could avoid this is by getting massive plastic surgery to make him more human and less marine.

jma037
25-08-2007, 07:22
Kill him? He is Jason Bourne! The Slayer of czxcasdfkwqerbadfkk'askxucbqksjdfb'askjvcbnvaksjdf h. The banisher of adskf'jnawqo'ieurhiasduvcnvba'asfkdjwe'iufabsfdb'a sdfvcbnc.
The destroyer of Legions of Daemons.
It was prophesied by the Keeper of Secret xifhrsjfkgoeiw before he is slain that the grey knight shall be killed by no man!

...

In the distance...Battle sister Lucia wakes up with a single bolt shell left in her bolter.

...

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 07:24
Kill him? He is Jason Bourne! The Slayer of czxcasdfkwqerbadfkk'askxucbqksjdfb'askjvcbnvaksjdf h. The banisher of adskf'jnawqo'ieurhiasduvcnvba'asfkdjwe'iufabsfdb'a sdfvcbnc.
The destroyer of Legions of Daemons.
It was prophesied by the Keeper of Secret xifhrsjfkgoeiw before he is slain that the grey knight shall be killed by no man!

...

In the distance...Battle sister Lucia wakes up with a single bolt shell left in her bolter.

...

What??????

Adra
25-08-2007, 08:50
The one GK that loses his memo is fine i guess but aside from that...no...they dont break ranks...they dont turn to chaos. this is one area of the fluff that im happy GW have made nice and solid. SM going off on one is rare enough...Gk dont do it...they are to SM as SM are to men....different league....and their loyalty is unquestionable

Bregalad
25-08-2007, 11:08
Another victim of the "paladin syndrome":) *


*Paladin syndrome: First witnessed in online games where all children first take the purest character class (->paladin) or race (->elf) and start a "corrupted" version of it, with names like "Black Avenger of Death" or "Dark Ueber Knight of Evil". Also common in other games (see entry "Chaos Tau")

Ktotwf
25-08-2007, 12:54
The Grey Knights are simply the best and most incorruptible soldiers in the Imperium (outside of the godlike and all mighty Custodes).

I know Warhammer 40k ALWAYS had shades of grey, if not outright black, but I kind of like the Grey Knights as the biggest, baddest MOFOs who just get stuff done and are incorruptible, understanding of course that they are the only ones who get this pass.

It kind of helps to explain why Demons and the like haven't taken everything over (despite countless attempt.) It is simply that Grey Knights wipe the floor with everything and everyone they meet, and who they normally meet is demons.

I also favor the idea that the Grey Knights are created from the Geneseed of the Emperor directly. This helps explain to me why they are both stronger than a Space Marine, and more incorruptible.

Vesica
25-08-2007, 13:10
The idea of him walking up alone and with nomemory is a bit iffy, like what happened to the rest of the force sent with him? and what about the space ship sent to take them there? Its a bit far fetched but if you put in the effort it might be workable.

But i still cant see a GK ever turning to anything, they dont have the human edge to them to do so.

good luck tho.

Born Again
25-08-2007, 13:14
It's plausible, but nothing would ever come of it! The moment he showed any hint of disloyalty or variation in his faith or beliefs, it's time to dance the hemp fandango. If he managed to sneak out, wander off on his own... don't get me wrong, Grey Knights are seriously badass... but one on their own is not gonna do much at all. Plus, it would be noticed he was missing. Then the big I would be tracking him down with all their resources to make a very definite example of him.

Vesica
25-08-2007, 13:29
Also it would be hard to blend in when you 7ft tall wearing siver armour and such.

A better idea would be to have a inquisitor losing his memory and wandering the galaxy trying to piece his mind back together, hell you could even have him been betrayed by a superior and been sent into a trap.

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 17:18
Also it would be hard to blend in when you 7ft tall wearing siver armour and such.

A better idea would be to have a inquisitor losing his memory and wandering the galaxy trying to piece his mind back together, hell you could even have him been betrayed by a superior and been sent into a trap.

Yeah, so leave my Grey Knights alone!:D

Vesica
25-08-2007, 18:19
Lol, are they your grey knights now then. Would that make you a Grand Master then?

cromdubh
25-08-2007, 18:22
Ok this is a bit far out, but may be a plausible reason for GK's to be branded renegades.

What if a squad of GK's are being led by an Inquisitor, who decides to carve out a little Empire for himself? If the GK's could be convinced that they are doing the Emperor's work, by killing innocents and such then it is possible for the GK squad to be branded traitor by the rest of the Chapter and the Malleus.

Technically the GK's would only be following the orders of the Inquisitor (who has decided to go renegade), and may well feel that they are doing nothing wrong.

Would GK's question the orders of an Inquisitor? Would they execute the inquisitor, if they felt that the orders being given were not for the good of the Imperium?

dr.oetk3r
25-08-2007, 18:23
Heretic, GK's always know what is best. This idea = stupid. Sorry.

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 18:31
Lol, are they your grey knights now then. Would that make you a Grand Master then?

Yep, I am Grand Master Arcanus Uriel Corvus

CELS
25-08-2007, 18:46
Another victim of the "paladin syndrome":) *


*Paladin syndrome: First witnessed in online games where all children first take the purest character class (->paladin) or race (->elf) and start a "corrupted" version of it, with names like "Black Avenger of Death" or "Dark Ueber Knight of Evil". Also common in other games (see entry "Chaos Tau")
Quoted for truth.

To answer the OP, yes, it's possible. It's also possible to have your character be a missing Primarch who had amnesia and whose other Primarch is his evil twin. ;)

cromdubh
25-08-2007, 18:54
Where do the loyalties of the GK's ultimatly lie? Is it with the Malleus or the Imperium?

If the Inquisition decided to overthrow the current High Lords of Terra (maybe they think that the Inquisition would do a better job protecting the Imperium), where would the GK's stand?

If they decided to side with the Inquisition, would they be classed as traitors?

Arcanus
25-08-2007, 18:58
Where do the loyalties of the GK's ultimatly lie? Is it with the Malleus or the Imperium?

If the Inquisition decided to overthrow the current High Lords of Terra (maybe they think that the Inquisition would do a better job protecting the Imperium), where would the GK's stand?

If they decided to side with the Inquisition, would they be classed as traitors?

I doubt all of the Ordo Malleus would turn against the Imperium but I think the Grey Knight would stay with the Imperium no matter what. And yes they would be classed as traitors.

Slaaneshi Slave
25-08-2007, 19:05
I have a different view on the whole "never fallen to chaos" crap. As soon as any Grey Knight turns rogue he has a bullet put in the back of his head, and is marked down as a casualty of war, not a traitor. This way, they get to keep the current Grey Knights thinking they are invincible (which goes a long way to making them actually invincible), and gives them an untarnished reputation in the eyes of... Well, whoever knows of them (not many).

Vesica
25-08-2007, 19:11
Im not even going to try and argue with you Slaaneshi, i have learnt my lesson

Slaaneshi Slave
25-08-2007, 19:13
Please do, my previous post has no foundation of canon, and is purely speculation and personal belief than in 10,000 years, even the most incorruptable of incorruptables can be turned by my Master and his brothers.

Vesica
25-08-2007, 19:36
lol, well ok i think if one did turn what you descibe would happen as they say 'faith is my shield' and i think losing a brother would weaken them just a little.

I dont believe this has happened because if it did what ever chaos power it was would brag about it to the GK's they face.

Also they wouldnt follow a Inqs order if they found it wanting, they are not part of the Ordo Malleus but they do associate with them because they do the same work.

Slaaneshi Slave
25-08-2007, 19:43
Why would the Chaos Gods brag about it, when they don't brag about the entire legions they corrupted. :rolleyes:

The Chaos Gods don't give a damn about mortals, its more of a passive corruption than the Gods concentrating on corrupting them individually.

Vesica
25-08-2007, 19:57
I mean when they battle GK's because it would daze them for a second or something idk.

it makes sense to me and my warped mind.

Slaaneshi Slave
25-08-2007, 20:01
I'm sure they do, but Grey Knights know better than to listen to the lies of Daemons.

Damien 1427
25-08-2007, 20:07
I imagine one may have. Possibly. Maybe. After all, it's a big galaxy.

Of course, one may argue the moment you turn to Chaos, you're no longer a Grey Knight. Thus, no Fallen Knights.

Of course, they're rigged with failsafes. If one was possessed, odds are the wards and whatnot in their armour would cause the thing to explode in a great beam of holy holiness.

Vesica
25-08-2007, 20:53
O yea i forgot about the wards, so one wouldnt be able to turn otherwise they would probably die anyway.

good point damien

Slaaneshi Slave
25-08-2007, 20:56
Of course they can turn, the wards don't stop them thinking. A mans beliefs are not something which can be controlled that simply. The wards might have something do say if he got possessed, but thats it. Besides, whats to stop him abandoning his armour?

DantesInferno
25-08-2007, 22:48
Of course they can turn, the wards don't stop them thinking. A mans beliefs are not something which can be controlled that simply.

Yeah, it's not the wards on their armour which stop the Grey Knights from thinking independently and control their beliefs. That's what the decades of indoctrination and hypnotherapy are for.

I'd imagine that the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knight command structure have some pretty sophisticated mental scanners to detect the beginnings of psychic impurity or non-standard thought patterns.

Slaaneshi Slave
25-08-2007, 22:49
Yes, and those individuals would either be sent on suicide missions, or purified and struck of the rosters as casualties of war or some other such reason.

Arcanus
26-08-2007, 05:23
So now it's pretty much official there are no living renegade Grey Knights

Born Again
26-08-2007, 06:13
At least not if you want to keep living. Suggesting such a thing would be a first class ticket to execution for some heresy of your own.

Arcanus
26-08-2007, 06:24
At least not if you want to keep living. Suggesting such a thing would be a first class ticket to execution for some heresy of your own.

Yeah, so right now we're preping the eletric chair for the OP.

Born Again
26-08-2007, 06:27
Yeah, so right now we're preping the eletric chair for the OP.

well that's one way of closing down a thread!

Arcanus
26-08-2007, 06:31
well that's one way of closing down a thread!

What's that supposed to mean?

Vesica
26-08-2007, 12:37
lol, have any of you read the 2 Grey Knight books? they are pretty good and kind of have something on this subject.

The reason why i dont think they would fall is because the powers have nothing to offer them and as for going rogue why would they? they wouldnt gain anything from doing so.

All marines that go rogue do it to gain something, if they join chaos its mainly for power, if they go rogue its to free themselves of the Imperium, but i cant see GK's having enough of a real personality to want either.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 12:40
Not everybody who goes rogue does it to gain something. The Inquisitor Eisenhorns gets his nasty book from still believed he was working for the Imperiums good, even though he was sacrificing people and had grown horns on his head.

cromdubh
26-08-2007, 13:11
I have to agree with Slaaneshi Slave, there are many reasons for going rogue.
What if a member , or even a squad of GK's thought that they were being used by the Inquisition for reasons which were not for the good of the Imperium and decided to disobey orders?

Vesica
26-08-2007, 13:12
True about Eisenhorn, but he is as indoctrananted as a GK now is he.

Also doesnt he eventually return to the light fully?

Brilliant books aswell, i heard that there is one more to be made.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 13:26
I meant the Inquisitor that Eisenhorn killed, the one who was organising the atrocities to capture psychers to use on a Necron Pilon to amplify the effect and close the eye (so he thought, all that would have happened was the destruction of the entire planet). That guy was mutated to all hell but still considered himself a loyal servant of the Imperium.

Also, you think he has returned to the light, but its a slippery path to damnation which he treads. He summons a Greater Daemon trapped in his friends body to fight for him. :rolleyes: His eventual fate is unknown, but it can be surmised that some young and puritanical Inquisitor would have purged him and destroyed the host.

Vesica
26-08-2007, 13:43
damn you, good point tho. I supose heresy is in the eye of the beholder (or something like that).

Ktotwf
26-08-2007, 13:46
I'll put it this way Slaneeshi Slave...what you are saying MAY be true, but it has no background whatsoever to support it.

So...the fact that no Grey Knights have turned is canon, the idea that 8 ft tall superhuman ubersoldiers could be quietly snuffed is personal speculation.

Until GW even begins to possibly imply otherwise, I am sticking with the whole "No Grey Knight has ever turned" line.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 13:47
I did say it was speculation, and it makes a lot more sence to me that it happens this way, rather than in 10,000 years there has never been a traitor.

superknijn
26-08-2007, 14:10
I though tthat Grey Knights where so mind-washed that they had absolutely no emotions (except for the famous Imperial Righteous Hate), and that there minds where effectively locked, so that nothing (not even chaos powers) could penetrate it and alter it. The Wards and the like is then added ontop of it. And, ofcourse, they would never submit to Heresy voluntarily, due to their brain-washing.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 14:14
If a tank can be corrupted, which has no emotions or feelings at all, then any human can, no matter how brain washed he is.

superknijn
26-08-2007, 14:19
That's not true; tanks, in the 40th millenium, have Machine Spirits, who are usually not quite as programmed against heresy as GK's. I mean, the ruleboook itself sais that Titans are machines containing an almost uncontrollable rage.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 14:24
Thats a primitive AI, not some living thing. Ok, a better example, a set of power armour can be corrupted.

Ktotwf
26-08-2007, 14:32
Slaneeshi Slave, you can't prove it.

And it isn't a "He-Said-She-Said" thing either, GW has flatly said several times that the GK have the honor of being the only ones who haven't fallen to Chaos.
Your speculation may be speculation, but it still is very weak in terms of ANY evidence in the least bit. It is basically "Counter-Canon"

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 14:43
I did state that it is not based in canon, just more on common sence. ;)

Chilltouch
26-08-2007, 14:53
Well GW isn't big in the common sense department. Land Raider armour, Marauder bombs, invasion scales and so on. They're all completely impractical and nonsense.

But, despite all of that, I like it. Grey Knights have faith that is absolutely unbendable. No questions asked, that's just it. It's nice, for once, to have a group of Imperials who have no chance of turning to Chaos.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-08-2007, 14:56
The whole point is that the Imperium is fighting against Chaos with everything its got, but inevitably it is turning to Chaos ever so slowly itself. Just like the Eldar before them.

Chilltouch
27-08-2007, 17:16
I thought the Imperium was allabout showing how far mankind would go to survive

Vesica
27-08-2007, 17:48
read his name then think about his answer, they seem very heretical to me, do they to you brother?

Josiah
27-08-2007, 18:43
The whole point is that the Imperium is fighting against Chaos with everything its got, but inevitably it is turning to Chaos ever so slowly itself. Just like the Eldar before them.

The fall of the eldar was a result of them becoming hedonists, not them turning to chaos. It was more of an adore yourself thing, not a worship a chaos god thing.

Of course, they created a chaos god in the process, but thats not the point.


As for the whole renegade GK thing, I don't think its possible.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
27-08-2007, 19:43
What if he wasn't quite a full grey knight?

What if for example he was still in the process of being created, getting shipped from somewhere to somewhere else to get his mind programmed or whatever and the ship crashes killing everyone but him and he has had his mind wiped and doesn't know who or what he is. Or the ship gets raided by dark eldar / eldar pirates / mischevious chaos god and they capture him and he manages to escape but with no memories due to mind scrub - > then he has to run around in a loin cloth finding out about what he is.... until he finds some marine armour ... he joins a rogue trader band .... sees grey knights ... realises he is one...

I think you can explain anything you want to in this universe - > grot fighting alongside space marines, necrons fighting for eldar etc etc. all plausible no matter how unlikely...

Devil-Tears
27-08-2007, 20:39
Bob Plisskin;1858929']What if he wasn't quite a full grey knight?

What if for example he was still in the process of being created, getting shipped from somewhere to somewhere else to get his mind programmed or whatever and the ship crashes killing everyone but him and he has had his mind wiped and doesn't know who or what he is. Or the ship gets raided by dark eldar / eldar pirates / mischevious chaos god and they capture him and he manages to escape but with no memories due to mind scrub - > then he has to run around in a loin cloth finding out about what he is.... until he finds some marine armour ... he joins a rogue trader band .... sees grey knights ... realises he is one...

I think you can explain anything you want to in this universe - > grot fighting alongside space marines, necrons fighting for eldar etc etc. all plausible no matter how unlikely...

Ya, problem with the unprogrammed mind is that he WOULDN't be a GK without all the propagn- I mean training, he would simply be a space marine.

Another problem about "fighting big battle/ have amnesia afterwards" thing is that if the GK found one of their own out cold, they would probably bring the man back to heal up. If they thought the guy was dead, its more of a "no more gene seed for you!" matter, and the GK would die regardless.

jma037
27-08-2007, 21:38
What if he's the only survivor?

Bregalad
28-08-2007, 02:20
No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.
What is so difficult to understand?
If you give a damn about official background (and your opponents too), then just add the spikes and green stuff tentacles and go ahead.

thanoson
28-08-2007, 10:55
Yeah, I remember the Fallen Inquisitor from long ago. Think it was in Slaves to Darkness. Who has more strength of mind, GK's or Inquisitors?

thanoson
28-08-2007, 10:57
Wait, don't Sisters of Battle have immeasurable faith as well? Yet, there was a story about some being corrupted in that comic. Never say never.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 10:58
Grey Knights, an Inquisitor is just a human.

Who has more strength of mind, a Grey Knight trooper or a Primarch? ;)

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 11:05
Grey Knight by MILES.
A normal marine, by MILES.

Primarchs were raised in atmospheres where they were treated like gods, they didn't suffer the same indoctrination as other marines, they had minds of their own.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 11:10
Marines have minds of their own, or why would that Marine have been too scared / intimidated by Eisenhorn to ask him how he killed the Chaos Marine?

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 11:18
Okay, maybe I put it wrong.

The Primarchs didn't receive any sort of mental training at a young age. They were simply brought into the Emperor's arms and given their armies.

Meanwhile, Marines are mentally strengthened by dozens of different forms of indoctrination to ensure that they don't sway.

In my eyes, a primarch would turn faster than a guardsman.

Khaine's Messenger
28-08-2007, 11:31
The whole point is that the Imperium is fighting against Chaos with everything its got, but inevitably it is turning to Chaos ever so slowly itself. Just like the Eldar before them.

I would think the more delicious irony is that their "fall" occurred the moment they took their vows. A Grey Knight betraying the Emperor is as unthinkable as Kharn betraying Khorne. Therefore, a pessimist may as well note that the Grey Knights are no more immune to the depredations of Chaos than anyone else...it's just that they are already pledged to a "Chaos God"/"warp power" (the Emperor, call it the Star Child if you want) and therefore a further fall would be pointless. But that probably requires a certain view of the cosmology of 40k....

Again, I think a renegade is possible under the right circumstances. The declaration of renegade status is a political thing, and knowledge of the Grey Knights is not exactly widespread beyond upper echelon commanders. But for a Grey Knight to consider himself a renegade...that would be a very hard sell.

Vesica
28-08-2007, 12:30
The Primarchs had HUMAN minds which can be corrupted, Grey Knights have GREY KNIGHT minds which cant.

as for the sole survivor, what about the fleet that got them there? and why would you leave a sole GK? you wouldnt would you, the idea is very implausable.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 12:32
Grey Knights have human minds which are indoctrinated. They have the same minds as everybody else, and enough stress will break them.

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 12:41
The Grey Knights don't have human minds by the time they are allowed out of Titan. By that time, every last scrap of human thought is torn from their minds. They only exist to serve the Emperor. Nothing more. All they think about is the Emperor and serving him. Any last scrap of human thought that Space Marines might have is gone. The Imperium wouldn't release them until they are 100% sure they are 100% failsafe.

Especially not after the Horus Heresy.

Vesica
28-08-2007, 13:47
Chilltouch got what i was trying to say.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 13:54
There is no such thing as 100% failsafe. :rolleyes:

Humans all have human weaknesses. The only way to remove that is to use robots. There is a Calidus Assassin in one of the old Inquisitor War books (I think) who almost gets subverted by pleasure torture. There are some things you just can't defend against, as somebody will always come up with something new.

Josiah
28-08-2007, 14:04
Grey Knights aren't exactly human...

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 14:04
They're less human than Space Marines.

My point is, after nigh on ten thousand years, none have turned. And there's a very good reason for that.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 14:07
Personally, I think you take the fluff much too literally.

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 14:15
Actually, I don't. I think a lot of the figures in the fluff have been absolutely crap. But I think it's logical that as of this rate, no Grey Knights have turned.

Besides, who would want to turn the Grey Knights? Their mental willpower is half of what makes them any different from other Adeptus Astartes. As soon as you break their loyalty to the Emperor to swear to fight for the creatures they hate so much, that mental willpower is gone. The castle that was built up around their mind has been toppled. Their insane fearless nature has been dominated. Once all of that is gone, all you have left is a Space Marine with superior equipment.

Which, if you ask me, isn't worth the effort of the years of torture it would take.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 14:18
Chaos doesn't turn you to fight for Chaos, it just turns you against what you fight for. Then you do your own thing.

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 14:35
Okay then. Would it be worth the effort to turn them to fight again what they serve?

And since they no longer work for anyone - who'd give them the support they'd need to do ANYTHING?! They'd just wait on a planet, twiddle their thumbs and maybe get orbital nuked before they die of Space Marine old age.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 14:47
Chaos only has one goal. To spread chaos. If it disrupts the enemy then anything is worth the effort. Besides, they are formless masses of warp energy, what else do they have to occupy their days?

BrotherMoses
28-08-2007, 15:05
Chaos only has one goal. To spread chaos. If it disrupts the enemy then anything is worth the effort. Besides, they are formless masses of warp energy, what else do they have to occupy their days?

Daemonette porn :D

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 15:08
Lead titanic empires under their command throughout the universe against their foes.

Remember, the Milky Way is one galaxy in a countless billion. And Chaos probably has a countless billion galaxies to dominate out there. After all, Eldar made Slaanesh. Who caused enough hatred, enough despair and enough hope to create the elder gods?

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 15:10
Chaos only has one goal. To spread chaos. If it disrupts the enemy then anything is worth the effort. Besides, they are formless masses of warp energy, what else do they have to occupy their days?

But the effort spent converting one Grey Knight could have converted a whole lot more of other people. And I think they'd take twenty people over one gray knight.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 15:10
The Eldar Gods were crafted, not born. They were made by the Old Ones. They were extremely powerful Daemons, not true Gods, as evidenced by the fact that Khaine crossed over at least twice (fighting Eldarnesh, and fighting the Nightbringer).


But the effort spent converting one Grey Knight could have converted a whole lot more of other people. And I think they'd take twenty people over one gray knight.

Why? One man means nothing to them, one million means nothing to them. They do what they think is fun and damn everything else.

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 15:17
The Eldar Gods were crafted, not born. They were made by the Old Ones. They were extremely powerful Daemons, not true Gods, as evidenced by the fact that Khaine crossed over at least twice (fighting Eldarnesh, and fighting the Nightbringer).



Why? One man means nothing to them, one million means nothing to them. They do what they think is fun and damn everything else.

I think that they would think it would be more entertain to see 20 people causing havoc rather than one Grey Knight wandering the universe.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 15:19
They have spent over 60,000,000 years (except Slaanesh) recruiting as many as they can, surely they are bored of it now? :p

The Chaos Gods are corrupting the Emperor slowly, fragmenting his mind (is that from 2nd Ed or 3rd Ed rule book?). If they can get to Him, they can get to anybody.

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 15:23
They have spent over 60,000,000 years (except Slaanesh) recruiting as many as they can, surely they are bored of it now? :p

The Chaos Gods are corrupting the Emperor slowly, fragmenting his mind (is that from 2nd Ed or 3rd Ed rule book?). If they can get to Him, they can get to anybody.

But other people can be corverted much more easily and why bother converting one lone Grey knight when you can convert so many more influential people without the same amount of work.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
28-08-2007, 15:23
does he have to turn to chaos to be considered renegade?

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 15:24
Bob Plisskin;1860579']does he have to turn to chaos to be considered renegade?

Well, he has to lose faith in the Emperor.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
28-08-2007, 15:36
I don't believe in god, am I a satanist?

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 15:45
Bob Plisskin;1860617']I don't believe in god, am I a satanist?

No but in the 41st millennium the government is headed by God and if you don't believe in the Emperor as god your declared renegade. So in the 41st millennium you are a satanist if you don't believe in god. Also, you in most cases Satanism is the worship of yourself as a god. So you might just be a stanist and not even know it.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
28-08-2007, 15:51
Just because everyone else believes he is a chaos worshipping grey knight wouldn't make him one, misunderstood is the basis of many works of literary and visual fiction. Hence why he's renegade, sort of like the A-team but with more people actaully getting shot.

cromdubh
28-08-2007, 16:26
You dont have to lose your faith/belief in the Emperor to be classed as a renegade.

The Relictors still believe in the Emperor, but have been excommunicated due to their use of chaos artifacts as have radical Inquisitors.

Iy seems that many feel that Grey Knights have been indoctinated/brain washed to only serve the Emperor, but arent the Malleus their masters? Surely the Knights would be trained to follow any edict of an Inquisitor, including the slaughter of innocents etc. It would seem pointless if the Chamber Militant of the Malleus were capable of questioning orders, especially if it was felt that they did not see the "Big Picture".

As a consequence, it is possible that a radical Inquisitor could lead a few grey knights down the road of becoming Renegades.

cromdubh
28-08-2007, 16:29
No but in the 41st millennium the government is headed by God and if you don't believe in the Emperor as god your declared renegade. So in the 41st millennium you are a satanist if you don't believe in god. Also, you in most cases Satanism is the worship of yourself as a god. So you might just be a stanist and not even know it.

Not wanting to side track, but wouldnt you be an atheist if you didnt believe in God? Since the story goes that God created satan, by default you would have to believe in him, but just not worship him.

TrooperTino
28-08-2007, 17:13
I like it the way 'simply not coruptable'

They are Grey Knights, the purest and faithfullest of the pure and faithfull!

Iff we just say "in 10.000 years so much is possible"... I say this: The Emperor will someday join the Tau empire and gets burned by the Custodes for heresy... why not? so much is possible!

marines are curuptable, Primarchs are curuptable, SOB are curuptable, iff even grey knights are... I think there has to be a stop, chaos is powerfull enough and the Imperium may burn someday... but the GK will fight to the last drop of blood! rule of cool!

my english reaches its limits but i hope you get my point

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 17:47
Not wanting to side track, but wouldnt you be an atheist if you didnt believe in God? Since the story goes that God created satan, by default you would have to believe in him, but just not worship him.

Ah, the Glenn Danzig arguement. I think the loophole is that people who worship satan say they worship the idea of Satan.

Arcanus
28-08-2007, 17:50
I like it the way 'simply not coruptable'

They are Grey Knights, the purest and faithfullest of the pure and faithfull!

Iff we just say "in 10.000 years so much is possible"... I say this: The Emperor will someday join the Tau empire and gets burned by the Custodes for heresy... why not? so much is possible!

marines are curuptable, Primarchs are curuptable, SOB are curuptable, iff even grey knights are... I think there has to be a stop, chaos is powerfull enough and the Imperium may burn someday... but the GK will fight to the last drop of blood! rule of cool!

my english reaches its limits but i hope you get my point

Yeah, I argee. Even though I tend to think of the SoBs as being incorruptable even though that was proven wrong in Faith and Fire.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-08-2007, 22:17
No but in the 41st millennium the government is headed by God and if you don't believe in the Emperor as god your declared renegade. So in the 41st millennium you are a satanist if you don't believe in god. Also, you in most cases Satanism is the worship of yourself as a god. So you might just be a stanist and not even know it.

Lots of Space Marine chapters don't believe the Emperor is a God.

Captain Stern
29-08-2007, 11:41
For what it's worth here's an excerpt from Dark Millenium:

"... To date these extraordinary measures have been effective: in 10,000 years of combat against the forces of darkness not one Grey Knight has faltered in battle or betrayed the Emperor in word or deed."

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
They are In-corruptable, they dont have enough of a normal mind for it to be corrupted, look at everyone in 40k and wfb that turn to chaos they do it to gain something or to get power, a gk has no reason to turn all they know is there loyalty to the Immortal God Emperor.

Also they are not Ordo Malleus lap dogs, they are a independant chapter that works closely with the Ordo Malleus because they do the same work.
It is like a Xeno hunting chapter (not deathwatch) working closely with Ordo Xenos because of what they do.

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 11:41
Lots of Space Marine chapters don't believe the Emperor is a God.

Well they revere and respect him.

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 11:41
They are In-corruptable, they dont have enough of a normal mind for it to be corrupted, look at everyone in 40k and wfb that turn to chaos they do it to gain something or to get power, a gk has no reason to turn all they know is there loyalty to the Immortal God Emperor.

Also they are not Ordo Malleus lap dogs, they are a independant chapter that works closely with the Ordo Malleus because they do the same work.
It is like a Xeno hunting chapter (not deathwatch) working closely with Ordo Xenos because of what they do.

Another reason they may not turn is because they work with the Inquisition. That means there's probably an Inquisitor around them almost all the time. And when the Grey Knight does something wrong an Inquisitor could slay the Grey Knight no questions asked. So there could be fear for their life causing them to stay in the Emperor's service.

Vesica
29-08-2007, 19:39
I think its more to do with failing the Emperor than losing there life.

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 20:08
I think its more to do with failing the Emperor than losing there life.

What's that in reference to? If it's in reference my statements regarding fear then, if you were borderline renegade and here was an Inquisitor who has the authority to kill you the first time you even utter the Emperor's name in a negative context. I think you would be more worried about your life than failing the Emperor.

jma037
29-08-2007, 22:24
What happens if a grey knight failed his task and is too ashamed to return to the chapter? Or do they have no shame.... hahahaha

DrDoom
29-08-2007, 22:32
Okay...Let's stick with the Canon that NO Grey Knight has ever fall to chaos and they are not about to anytime soon...BUT!

Can they go Renegade? Keep in mind that renegade /= fall to chaos.

Can any of you think up any reasons that a GK will go Renegade?

Or is the idea of a renegade GK equivalent to female space marines?

Comments, Ideas, Suggestions!

When I started playing I used a Grey Knight model as my Chaos Warlord. his back story was that he was part of a Grey Knight squad that chased a Rogue Inquisitor into the Eye. They killed the Inquisitor but only Draxas was left. (insert trials and tribulations here. if you really want the bloody, gorey details PM me.) After some years he falls to Chaos.

The story changed slightly (but not much) when I decided I was going to make my army Black Legion.

People used to get very upset at the corrupted Grey Knight idea. Draxas has become a DP now so I use a differant model. Fewer people seem to mind these days.

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 23:23
What happens if a grey knight failed his task and is too ashamed to return to the chapter? Or do they have no shame.... hahahaha

I think he would go home and do penance. Not run-off into the depths of the universe.

Vesica
30-08-2007, 01:16
There is no failure in death.

damn you guys got me thinking about Grey knights and i have now added around 100pts of them to my SM army for apoc, grrr i was so close to not buying more stuff.

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 01:24
There is no failure in death.

damn you guys got me thinking about Grey knights and i have now added around 100pts of them to my SM army for apoc, grrr i was so close to not buying more stuff.

There is shame in being killed as a heretic by an inquisitor though.

thanoson
30-08-2007, 01:25
The reason to corrupt a Gray Knight is simple: His soul will probably taste better. More sastifaction for the accomplishment. Well worth the challenge.

jma037
30-08-2007, 01:26
...The thread has taken a life of it's own. I don't want a corrupted GK. I wanted a renegade GK....

Vesica
30-08-2007, 01:29
Sorry, i think i may have had a hand in that.

It may be possible but it would be very hard to pull off, have you ever thought about doing a 'fallen' dark angel who was throwen into the future and has woke up with no memory of the heresy and has to try and piece together his past?

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 01:29
...The thread has taken a life of it's own. I don't want a corrupted GK. I wanted a renegade GK....

Yeah, jma I thinks it's time to take this thread behind the shed and put it to rest.

Vesica
30-08-2007, 02:27
lol im sure that there is a law against executions(sp? its like 330am here)
you know.

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 02:29
lol im sure that there is a law against executions(sp? its like 330am here)
you know.

Not if anyone sees it and you spelled execution right. Also, it's not illegal in the good ol' U.S. of A.

Vesica
30-08-2007, 16:44
lol, ok then im sure somepeople will find it immoral.

Also what did you think of my twist in the original idea?

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 18:47
lol, ok then im sure somepeople will find it immoral.

Also what did you think of my twist in the original idea?

So those people who think it's immoral should be executed too problem solved. What twist of the original idea?

Navis Noble
30-08-2007, 18:56
It would take a lot to make a Grey Knight go renegade. Especially since Psycho Indoctrination takes the place of all of your memories and all you know and remember is your training and the importance of your duty to the Imperium.

Vesica
30-08-2007, 19:14
It may be possible but it would be very hard to pull off, have you ever thought about doing a 'fallen' dark angel who was throwen into the future and has woke up with no memory of the heresy and has to try and piece together his past?

That idea lol.

I agree we should get rid of some of these moral people aswell.

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 19:30
That idea lol.

I agree we should get rid of some of these moral people aswell.

It's an ok idea nut I'm guesing the op wants to use it for an army. So I don't think a singular fallen angel could do much.

Justicar_Freezer
31-08-2007, 03:03
Well by my handle I think it's no secret that I am a Grey Knights Player. So this topic interests me.

On the matter of renegade Grey knight's I honestly don't think it's possible. They are highly indoctrined in the imperial faith and the desire to serve the emperor. However in a stretch I suppose a radical inquisitor could label a grey knight or even a grey knight squad renegade because they defy him and attack him for his radical ways.

Now some might say the knights would follow any inquisitor blindly because the 666th chapter of the Adeptus Astartes are the Ordo Malleus's lap dogs but that is wrong. The Grey Knights are their own chapter. They have chaplains, they have commanders, and they are their own military force. The simply work with the Ordo Malleus because of what they do.

Also the whole not a single grey knight going renegade or falling to chaos is made even more believable now that the HH books have come out and it is strongly hinted to that the surviving loyalists of the traitor legions like Tarvitz, Garro and the survivors of the eisenstien who have already resisted corruption are the founders of the 666th chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

Seeing as I've put my two pents in on the op's question I want to ask a simple question?

Why is it so impossible to believe that the Grey Knights are totally immune to chaos corruption? I mean honestly is it so bad to think that throughout the whole doom and gloom of the 40k galaxy that one aspect of humanities defenders are immune to chaos? Is it so bad to think that one little part of humanities armies have hope of facing chaos and defeating them without turning?

Maybe I'm weird because I like to think there is some hope for humanity in 40k because it seems to be the majority like thinking humanity is doomed.

Justicar_Freezer.

jma037
31-08-2007, 12:20
When a man turns renegade it doesn't mean that he's aways influenced by the forces of Chaos. I don't believe that Chaos is behind every plot and every betrayal. I like my soldiers to be human in some way. I don't want them to be robots, because I can relate to them more. And to be human is to be flawed and coruptable. I think it's more rewarding to think of the grey knights as coruptable(with one or two examples) then to think of them as 100% immune.

Arcanus
31-08-2007, 17:17
When a man turns renegade it doesn't mean that he's aways influenced by the forces of Chaos. I don't believe that Chaos is behind every plot and every betrayal. I like my soldiers to be human in some way. I don't want them to be robots, because I can relate to them more. And to be human is to be flawed and coruptable. I think it's more rewarding to think of the grey knights as coruptable(with one or two examples) then to think of them as 100% immune.

Well the thing is Space Marines aren't human. They go through so many alterations that I wouldn't even call them human any more. They are geneticly crafted super-warriors.

Khaine's Messenger
31-08-2007, 17:47
Why is it so impossible to believe that the Grey Knights are totally immune to chaos corruption?

Because there are interpretations that accept Chaos as an all-pervasive force that is impossible to reject; one may as well reject electromagnetism or gravity for all the good it will do you. The warp (Chaos or not) changes everything it touches. And, as the more philosophically inclined daemons prefer to say, "we are part of you." In short, it's hard to accept that something is incorruptible because Chaos already has its claws in everything; the only sure way to purge yourself of this wicked worm is to wound yourself, and that may only allow more room for the infection to grow. Chaining it up could work just as well, but chains can be broken.


Is it so bad to think that one little part of humanities armies have hope of facing chaos and defeating them without turning?

The thing about Grey Knights, I think, is that you really have to wonder what the price they have to pay for their incorruptible nature is. Call it the "no free lunch" philosophy if you like, but it sounds pretty fishy.

Arcanus
31-08-2007, 18:41
Because there are interpretations that accept Chaos as an all-pervasive force that is impossible to reject; one may as well reject electromagnetism or gravity for all the good it will do you. The warp (Chaos or not) changes everything it touches. And, as the more philosophically inclined daemons prefer to say, "we are part of you." In short, it's hard to accept that something is incorruptible because Chaos already has its claws in everything; the only sure way to purge yourself of this wicked worm is to wound yourself, and that may only allow more room for the infection to grow. Chaining it up could work just as well, but chains can be broken.



The thing about Grey Knights, I think, is that you really have to wonder what the price they have to pay for their incorruptible nature is. Call it the "no free lunch" philosophy if you like, but it sounds pretty fishy.

Well the Grey Knight are like the super-soldiers of the Adeptus Astartes who are genetically crafted super-soldiers. The reason they are incoruptable is becase they have extra hypnosis and have so many purity seals that it would be hard for Chaos let alone a daemon corupt them.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-09-2007, 06:16
Well the thing is Space Marines aren't human. They go through some many alterations that I wouldn't even call them human any more. They are geneticly crafted super-warriors.

Their minds are still human, and any amount of Indocrination and Hypno-therapy can be broken.

Arcanus
01-09-2007, 06:27
Their minds are still human, and any amount of Indocrination and Hypno-therapy can be broken.

Well the thing is that even if they could be broken why would a Chaos God or immensly powerful daemon go out of it's way to do so.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
01-09-2007, 07:02
Why do we paint models and play games with them, it's entertaining and something to do, I think that's enough reason for a chaos god to want to corrupt a Grey Knight.

I still think people aren't getting the idea though, there is a big difference between being renegade and being corrupted by chaos. To be renegade then a Grey Knight just has to disagree with his superiors, maybe even in a more loyal to the imperium way
eg brother-captain says to leave the planet to get eaten by daemons, there's too many and we cant do anything. Grey knight says that the have to at least try and help the population etc etc.

Devil-Tears
02-09-2007, 05:06
Bob Plisskin;1869116']

I still think people aren't getting the idea though, there is a big difference between being renegade and being corrupted by chaos. To be renegade then a Grey Knight just has to disagree with his superiors, maybe even in a more loyal to the imperium way
eg brother-captain says to leave the planet to get eaten by daemons, there's too many and we cant do anything. Grey knight says that the have to at least try and help the population etc etc.

But there is still a problem with that because Grey Knights who disagree would be suspected by the Inquisition and probably tortured and killed under the pretense that he is defying the Emperor (Don't ask how, but the INQ would have about a million reasons to kill anything). Also, (not to offend) the problem with your example is that the GK and INQ would rather destroy a planet and kill everything within its proximity than let a single daemon manifest. Thus, a renegade GK is very hard to justify.

Reinn
02-09-2007, 05:11
The only way I could see a GK turning renegade, is if the Imperium somehow turned against the Emperor and his ideals.
Which I dont really see happening so...you have better chances of seeing docile orks than a renegade GK

Arcanus
02-09-2007, 05:11
But there is still a problem with that because Grey Knights who disagree would be suspected by the Inquisition and probably tortured and killed under the pretense that he is defying the Emperor (Don't ask how, but the INQ would have about a million reasons to kill anything). Also, (not to offend) the problem with your example is that the GK and INQ would rather destroy a planet and kill everything within its proximity than let a single daemon manifest. Thus, a renegade GK is very hard to justify.

I agree with everything except the last part. An Inquisitor wouldn't destroy everything around a planet for a single daemon but if their were several thousand daemons the Inquistor would probably do so.

Arcanus
02-09-2007, 05:21
Double post. Sorry

Devil-Tears
02-09-2007, 09:04
I agree with everything except the last part. An Inquisitor wouldn't destroy everything around a planet for a single daemon but if their were several thousand daemons the Inquistor would probably do so.

Ok, so maybe that was a slight exaggeration (unless of course, it was a Greater Daemon). However, on pg. 11 of Codex: Daemonhunters, it does state that the INQ would "cosign billions of souls to death" even after the daemons are beaten to ensure that there would be no chaos taint left at all.

Edit: Man, it seems its always you and me who argues about the random stuff xD.

Richter Kless
02-09-2007, 10:27
Why is it so impossible to believe that the Grey Knights are totally immune to chaos corruption? I mean honestly is it so bad to think that throughout the whole doom and gloom of the 40k galaxy that one aspect of humanities defenders are immune to chaos? Is it so bad to think that one little part of humanities armies have hope of facing chaos and defeating them without turning?

I agree here. People never seem to accept that something is going well for the Imperium (accept if it has costed billions of lifes). And those people alwasy, always use the same argument. ´It´s imperial propaganda´.
When I begin about an Eldar Harlequin who turned to Chaos, I will get a truckload of arguments about how that is impossible, but when I state that not a single, not even one Grey knight has ever, ever fallen, I am called a fanboy. Because everything in the Imperium has to be corrupt and twisted and thus there is no room for something as pure and holy as an Emperor who is more than just a corpse, and Grey knights that will stay loyal no matter what.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-09-2007, 10:54
The Emperor is not pure or holy, he is simply a very powerful man. An alfa+ level psycher with delusions of grandure. :p

Iracundus
02-09-2007, 11:18
I am far from an Imperial fanboy but I would agree that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos or even become renegade. They are the purest the Imperium has to offer. However, and this is a big however, they are pure in the sense they have a mental life that is not what we as players would call human. That is why Chaos has no hold over them. Even when not fighting, they engage in their training and the rituals and prayers of their Chapter to an extent that crowds out and renders meaningless the things normal humans would feel, think, or value. The Space Marines may be inhuman in their flesh, but they are still more or less humans in their minds (though living monastically). The Grey Knights are inhuman in their minds.

To bring up Moorcock's Law vs Chaos dichotomy (not that I like it normally), the Grey Knights are people that are far far on the Law end of the spectrum. They are pure in the sense that it is good for fighting Chaos but being pure is not good for leading a mentally balanced normal life. I'd take that a step further and say that the Grey Knights may be clad in shining armor, but they represent the sacrificing of humanity for the sake of defending humanity (or the Imperium), and their mental inhumanity is disturbing even repulsive. They represent in microcosm the inhumane sacrfices the Imperium makes for just survival.

Chilltouch
02-09-2007, 11:30
Alpha+ doesn't describe the Emperor. He's more of a Alpha+++++ with immunity to the Warp. He could overpower the gathered strength of the Chaos Gods in a vessel with a single move. He was a scientist who probably could've outdone the Eldar - he managed to create the ultimate biological weapon and managed to actually penetrate the Webway and create a gate for humanity in there. And he was pure enough not to ever fall to the Dark Gods in their moment of triumph. Sure, he may not really be "holy" but he will be, going by the logic of the 40K universe and the uncounted millions of billions worshipping him during with their every living moment.

And Richter has hit the nail on the head - the Imperium is failing. It's falling and collapsing but it's not impossible for them to have one last shard of hope, one last thing that is constant and will never change: Grey Knights are steadfast, loyal and will remain that way forever.

TheLionReturns
02-09-2007, 14:01
I'm reading grey knights at the moment and it pretty categorically states that no GK has ever fall to chaos. Now we can argue whether books like this are canon of course, but the impression I form is that the idea of renegade grey knights is unlikely.

One thing I would say though is that renegade inquisitors are hardly unheard of. Furthermore even by space marine standards Grey Knights seem to be almost complete automatons. Yes they have some free will, but are generally obedient to a fault if they believe they are doing the emperors duty. A clever renegade inquisitor may be able to trick and use gullible grey knights if not too obvious. My only concern is as to whether the grey knights would be able to sense any taint about such an inquisitor.

dugaal
02-10-2007, 06:19
This may be far off, as the fluff I am referring to I heard on the forums but fill me in if necessary;
Was the Emperor not born of the reincarnation of hundreds of psykers, millennia before there was any human galactic empire? The associated theory is that he is reincarnated after death (a prospect held back due to the Golden Throne) at the peak of his powers+knowlege of the last 10k years.

If this IS the case, and some GK got wind of this fact, perhaps from some ancient,secret,hidden,mystical artifact or writings, his loyalty to the Emperor might override the lies of the Imperium. By going renegade and escaping the Inquisition he could then go about recruiting others and develop a plan to kill the Emperor (for his own good or course)

mistformsquirrel
02-10-2007, 06:26
The only way I could see a GK turning renegade, is if the Imperium somehow turned against the Emperor and his ideals.
Which I dont really see happening so...you have better chances of seeing docile orks than a renegade GK

I kinda agree.

I'm *VERY* liberal with the fluff - but Renegade Grey Knights are *very* hard to rationalize. I didn't say *impossible*; but its just an enormous stretch that in my view, would require some absolutely stellar writing and thinking to make work.

The prime reason, in my view; is that it almost seems like Grey Knights are 're-programmed' when they join. Not just the usual psycho-indoctrination any Marine gets - but almost like, having your brain scrubbed, then re-written with loyalty and faith.

Again, not insurmountable - but a tough nut to crack.

Oh, and the other major hindrance - the Grey Knights are one single individual Chapter of 1000. Even if one could corrupt a Grey Knight, it would be *VERY* difficult to do so in numbers enough to be significant - partly just due to the difficulty in getting them together in enough numbers to be significant in the fist place.

So like I said, not impossible... but tough tough tough.

Archaon
05-10-2007, 19:58
Just to clarify my idea.
1)Hero fighting Daemon in Eye of terror
2)Big final battle
3)Massive explosion of psychic power as the daemon is slain.
4)Hero wakes up alone and with no memory of what or who he is
5)Travel the length of the galaxy to find out.
6)Meet friends etc along the way and rediscovers his humanity.
7)Find out that he's in fact Grey Knight.
8)Not liking what he finds and walks off into the sunset.

Workable?

No.

To be more precise.. up until point 7 it's ok and could happen. Maybe even a good story if written well though memory loss as a plot device has gotten really stale.

But point 8 is impossible. GW may change (retcon) their background frequently but one thing was always constant in all editions.. Grey Knights are the one and only Space Marine chapter that never lost a member to Chaos or betrayed the Emperor/the Empire in any way.
This, apart from their very specialized mission profile, was a key constant and unlikely to ever change.

It simply doesn't enter the mind of a Grey Knight to betray the Empire.. they may not like some of what is done in the name of the Empire but they know that the Warp and its Deamons is infinitely worse.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 20:02
If he has lost his memory he is no longer a Grey Knight.

Sekhmet
05-10-2007, 21:06
Bob Plisskin;1858929']What if he wasn't quite a full grey knight?

What if for example he was still in the process of being created, getting shipped from somewhere to somewhere else to get his mind programmed or whatever and the ship crashes killing everyone but him and he has had his mind wiped and doesn't know who or what he is. Or the ship gets raided by dark eldar / eldar pirates / mischevious chaos god and they capture him and he manages to escape but with no memories due to mind scrub - > then he has to run around in a loin cloth finding out about what he is.... until he finds some marine armour ... he joins a rogue trader band .... sees grey knights ... realises he is one...

Grey Knights are created and trained in the Sol system. The only hostile alien race to get into the Sol system in the last 10,000 years is the Necrons iirc. By hostile I mean.. they did it on their own will with the ability to fight, not being brought back to be studied. If Dark Eldar got to Saturn and actually shot down a transport in the literal heart of the Imperium... something's wrong.



I think you can explain anything you want to in this universe - > grot fighting alongside space marines, necrons fighting for eldar etc etc. all plausible no matter how unlikely...
I disagree.

dr.oetk3r
06-10-2007, 00:00
It's a stupid idea.

Don't do it.

DantesInferno
06-10-2007, 02:06
You need to remember that just because an idea is possible does not make it plausible.

Tanith Ghost
06-10-2007, 02:29
I'd take that a step further and say that the Grey Knights may be clad in shining armor, but they represent the sacrificing of humanity for the sake of defending humanity...


Quoted for truth. The GK are pure beyond all reproach because they've sacrificed more than any save the Emperor himself. They forfeit their humanity
to save humanity. Duty is a demanding master, after all. All of the awsome powers they wield come with massive responsibility, and it carries a terrible price.

mistformsquirrel
06-10-2007, 02:52
You need to remember that just because an idea is possible does not make it plausible.

That's kind of how I look at this thing honestly.

I believe *ANYTHING* is *possible* within the bounds of the 40k universe.

I mean seriously - look at it; its a universe with gods and daemons cavorting about, with humanity somehow awe-inspiringly powerful... yet at the same point on the very brink of destruction at the same time. We have Space Marines that end up like walking tanks... and we also suspend our disbelief enough to say that some of these walking tanks can be *infiltration* specialists!

We have creatures that grow guns, guns that shoot other creatures! We have immortal robots that shoot tanks to death with their small arms!

I would say, given the craziness of the 40k universe - ANYTHING can happen.

But, that said, some things, are just not very plausible. Or more to the point, you need stellar writing to make them plausible.

Grey Knights, as I mentioned before, are just... well obscenely rare. I mean Space Marines are far from common, but we're talking about a very specific chapter, who's numbers are often scattered to the wind. Getting them together in enough numbers to be significant = Problem 1.

I actually find corrupting them or making them turn renegade to be the least of your worries = everyone has a breaking point, even if that point goes well beyond death. In the 40k universe, there are things *so much* worse than dying - so I don't think thats necessarily a problem.

What IS a problem though, is keeping this corrupted or turned Grey Knight alive; because the Inquisition has its eyes on them constantly. A terrifying prospect for anyone; but for someone to operate in such a manner, they must be especially strict with the Knights.

And then - you have just one single individual - to field a squad, or especially an army... it just gets exponentially more difficult.

Not impossible... but... hard.

I want to add - I'm not dead set against anything. If someone could explain renegade or corrupted Grey Knights properly, with the right level of storytelling and skill, I could accept it. Its just a truly daunting challenge, and one that even I wouldn't want to pick up frankly >.>

(I would add, I actually see Chaos Harlequins as being easier to explain - to give you an idea of where I'm coming from.)

Man I wish I could sum my thoughts up better, my ramblings have got to be irritating.

Hive Mind 33
06-10-2007, 04:32
but why was this thread brought back from the dead?

mistformsquirrel
06-10-2007, 05:51
Uhh >.> ask Dugaal. >.>

exMudPuppy
09-10-2007, 00:45
One point that I haven't seen brought up against GK's going renegade or being corrupted is that all GK's are psykers, and are rumored (pg 25 DH Codex) to endure the Emperor's Soul Binding.

Eldartank
09-10-2007, 02:17
My basic thought on this is - It just isn't possible for a Grey Knight to ever fall to chaos, be corrupted, or even turn renegade. And it certainly isn't possible for a rogue Inquisitor to decieve, trick or otherwise dupe any Grey Knight to join him in any kind of rebellion.

Lancer
09-10-2007, 02:51
A rogue Inquisitor wouldn't be able to call upon a Grey Knight without unduely drawing attention to himself unless there already were daemons popping up like weeds, in either event he is unlikely to survive for much longer.

FlashGordon
09-10-2007, 17:36
Well, since a deamon apparantly can posess an untouchable i think that corrupting grey knights is possible. But they will probably be killed quite swift.

Cheesolith
09-10-2007, 18:29
They can be renegades and still be loyal to the Emperor.

Simple scenario:
A grey knight and a big I are walking down the road and get a phonecall from the local PDF.
PDF: We are under attack, there's a deamonette screwing a local farmer in the village to your east and there's a bloodthirster running amok throug a city to your west.
GK: Understood, we will be there soon.
I: Let's take out the deamonette first, she's corrupting the population.
GK: Dude, if we don't kill that bloodthirster first there's no population left to cleanse.
I: I said we kill the deamonette first.
GK: Bloodthirster.
I: Deamonette.
GK: Bloodthirster.
I: Deamonette.
GK: Bloodthirster.
I: Deamonette.
GK: Bloodthirster.
I: Deamonette.
GK: Bloodthirster.
I: Deamonette.
GK: You and your standard procedures! I'm going after the bloodthirster.
*GK runs off* FOR THE EMPEROOoooor....
I: By the emperor's cereal bowl! He defied my orders so he has to be a heretic. Where's that assasin when you need him? Ah well, not my problem, back to banishing deamons.
*Inquisitor walks to the general direction of the deamonette*

40k A-team:D

Lothlanathorian
09-10-2007, 21:50
I think that they would think it would be more entertain to see 20 people causing havoc rather than one Grey Knight wandering the universe.

I'd rather sleep with one nun than 100 girls of questionable moral fiber. It's about conquest.


Not wanting to side track, but wouldnt you be an atheist if you didnt believe in God? Since the story goes that God created satan, by default you would have to believe in him, but just not worship him.

Satanism is a crazy, misguided, misunderstood philosophy.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-10-2007, 23:59
I'd rather sleep with one nun than 100 girls of questionable moral fiber. It's about conquest.

Well, that's one way to look at it... and it illustrates the point nicely. I see exactly where you're coming from.


Satanism is a crazy, misguided, misunderstood philosophy.

Quite. A lot of people don't realize that Satanism isn't so much about Satan at all. My brother once decided it was for him, after doing a bit of research on other religions. I still disagree on a deep level with the religion's philosophy, but I know now that it has nothing to do with Satan or God.

Of course, my brother, damnfool that he is, gave up his religion because his friends didn't like it...:rolleyes:

Sorry, here's not the place to rant about that idiot.