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View Full Version : Nathaniel Garro, Psyker? or Destiny? (possible spoilers for HH books)



Vesica
25-08-2007, 15:00
Hey guys i had seen a fair few comments on here about Garro been a possible psyker.

Now i had read all these before reading the 'Flight of the E' and after reading over half i have to say he seems to me to be a psyker, but then i was thinking about what his serf says about him being the one.

now this got me thinking about if he was a psyker or it was just his destiny and such.

Hope that makes sense,

Kage2020
25-08-2007, 16:09
Yes.

No.

Both.

Or, more importantly, which do you think is applicable? Ultimately that's what it comes down to.

Kage

Light of the Emperor
25-08-2007, 16:12
I think Garro was a latent psyker. How that was caused is unknown ie mutation of the geneseed. I do think his powers (telepatchic) were awoken after the first battle in the book when that xenos creature talked to him. The saint was also able to communicate with him as well.
His sword, The Veritas, seems to perhaps be a force weapon too.

Perhaps it was all his destiny to begin with...after all the saint chose him.

Vesica
25-08-2007, 16:17
not just the hearing voices, he also talks about other pschic sounding abilities.

doesnt it all really start after he is nearly killed by the warsinger (sp?)

Vesica
25-08-2007, 16:18
Personally i think it is a mixture of both, i believe it was his destiny to become a psker.

colmarekblack
25-08-2007, 16:26
Personally i think it is a mixture of both, i believe it was his destiny to become a psker.

And the reason he becomes the first GK Grandmaster (IMO anyway)

Vesica
25-08-2007, 16:54
Yea i agree with that aswell, who better to lead the fight against corruption and traitors than someone who saw his primarch and his brothers turn and still held loyal to the Emperor.

Homemaster
25-08-2007, 18:45
He becomes the first Grand Master?

Very interesting, where did you find this out?

Vesica
25-08-2007, 18:57
Its not cannon, but alot of people believe it to be so.

cant give my full opinion as i havent finished reading the book.

Choke's me up when i read about astartes killing fellow astartes.

Kage2020
25-08-2007, 19:13
Chokes you up? I was actually relieved. Stopped the incessant whining and "oh look how heroic and wonderful we are" text. Yeesh... :eyebrows: ;)

Kage

heretics bane
25-08-2007, 20:15
Well he was trapped in the warp with no gellar sheilds so mutation could of happened then or he was simplie afraid of showing he was a pysker because alot of marines didnt like the idea of libarians being tuned to the warp (like magnus)

But did the death guard have libarians or similar pyskers in the legion, ive neve heard of a death guard libarian?

Vesica
25-08-2007, 21:01
No i dont believe they did, and i am sure the mutation happens towards the begining of the book,

it does choke me up, i dont care when traitors die i just find it sad that loyalists died.

Crazy Tom
26-08-2007, 01:06
I didn't think they had any Librarians, pre-Heresy era - I thought all warp stuff beyond astropaths and the astronomicon was an absolute no-no as far the Emperor was concerned. When did Librarians start being used?

Leftenant Gashrog
26-08-2007, 02:55
According to the Index Astartes series the Thousand Sons were the first legion to establish a Librarian Corps, some legions then copied it, other legions then objected.. and finally the Council of Nikaea came about, at which the Emperor sanctioned the use of librarians.

Alan Merritts hack-job (Horus Heresy artbooks) changes it so that instead of sanctioning the use of librarians at the Council of Nikaea the Emperor instead bans their use, ordering the the Librarian Corps disbanded and their marines returned to their original duties.. (I dont believe there is any info on why they were subsequently put back into use.. I wont have a problem with this particular retcon if they come up with a decent reason.. eg: change the Imperial Fist Terminator who distracted Horus into an Imperial Fist Terminator Librarian)

Either way they certainly existed pre-heresy.. tho may not have existed by the time of the heresy..

The pestilent 1
26-08-2007, 08:56
I didn't think they had any Librarians, pre-Heresy era - I thought all warp stuff beyond astropaths and the astronomicon was an absolute no-no as far the Emperor was concerned. When did Librarians start being used?

False G-D's says that all legions had Librarians, but they stopped using them after the big E's decision on Nohickey.

mick005usa
26-08-2007, 14:23
This whole Nathanael Garro, founder of Chapter 666, is something to think about. Clearly, the idea that the Grey Knights would be composed of the group of Astartes that remained loyal during the Heresy is interesting. Garro proved uncoruptable, along with many others (their names escape me!).

Anyhow, *Spoiler*In Fulgrim it is mentioned that a dreadnought, understood to be venerable, may have survived the cull of the Emperor's Children when he moved undergound in search of something while on Istvaan III. Anyhow, it certainly is interesting.

In some ways, though, it does run contray to Imperial procedure. At this time, the events of the Heresy were just ratcheting up. The Emperor would have assumed sole command of the defence, presumably. The GK's, to my knowledge, were formed some time after the Heresy. What would be done with the traitors? How could the Imperium be assured of their loyalty? In some marines' cases, it could be argued that their lack of corruption merely stemmed from being in the right place at the right time. This would almost clearly apply to the ECs that did not enter the Laer Temple. Anyhow, i don't belive that ANY Imperial leader would agree to employ the traitors in any capacity, prefering to execute them instead. This seems logical, even discounting the fact that the Inquisition had not yet arisen.

Luthien
26-08-2007, 14:39
Naah up until Horus's final gambit Dorn had sole command of the Imperial defenders

mick005usa
26-08-2007, 14:45
Certainly. Perhaps i didn't explain myself right. I think it makes sense to assume that the emperor was in sole command of the Imperium up until his death. Decision with what to do with the loyalist Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children etc. would have rested with him. Upon his death, i don't believe that those that took command would have taken but a moment to decide to execute any marines from the Traitor legions, regardless of supposed loyalty. Their subsquent attitude towards traitors of any stripe has been death. Look at how the Dark Angels treat their OWN BROTHERS that turned traitor. No Imperial would have been forward thinking enough to preseve the "loyal traitors," save for perhaps Malcador.

Vesica
27-08-2007, 17:35
By that idea, they would have been killed as soon as they landed on the Luna base would they not? also remeber he was one of the first Astartes to face 2 daemons and live, that is not something you would dispose of on a whim.

I do believe he was a GK it basically says that he will do some involving Xenos, Heretics and Daemons and his faith would make him an ideal candidate for the role of GK.

Vesica
27-08-2007, 17:36
As for DA's hunting the 'fallen' its to make up for a past shame and as you said they where traitors, if by your thinking then the INQ would have purged the DA a long time ago wouldnt they.

ryng_sting
28-08-2007, 03:42
I take the book as saying that Garro was pivotal in creating the Grey Knights. Yes, the Emperor and Malcador the Sigilite came up with the idea. But it took Garro and his mates to put it into practice, to train and counsel their charges.

SonofUltramar
29-08-2007, 23:14
Just to put a different spin on things how about the 8 Marines from Legions who turned to Chaos that remained Loyal who are mentioned in Horus Heresy: Visions of Death could include Garro and Iacton Qruze amongst their number but they instead became the first Deathwatch and the first Grey Knights were in fact a number of Adeptus Custodes.

The only thing I can make this massive postulation on would be that Garro says in Flight of the Eisenstein that the Custodes were to The Emperor as a Marine is to his Primarch. To me at least this backs up previous rumour that they were crated from The Emperors Geneseed and would all have the potential to to be Psykers?

As I said just another spin on things we already know?

Vesica
30-08-2007, 01:21
True, i never thought about that even when i read the book. I Still think Garro became something to do With the Malleus tho because he defide a direct order from a superior and from his primarch because of his loyalty to the Emperor, also wasnt he born on Terra so mabye he didnt have his primarchs geneseed?

Exetus
30-08-2007, 07:26
No, he was still created from his primarch's geneseed. The founding legions were are created with the geneseed of their primarchs. After the legions were turned over to their respective "fathers" they would then start recruiting from their homeworlds which would start to wean out the Terrans bit-by-bit. I think that the authors have left a few ambiguities for a number of reasons which we will find out later in the Horus Heresy series.

While it is a stretch, knowing that there are warrens and tunnels beneath the Choral City, it is not entirely implausible to believe that Tarvitz and Loken still live. last we heard, Loken was being buried beneath the rubble of the bombardment and Tarvitz was in what little remained of the Choral Palace, which could easily have fallen. In the meantime, Ancient Rylanor was beneath the palace, meaning that he is in a position to possibly recover both or our protagonists.

As for Straight-Arrow Garro, I would think that he would be Malleus, not Xenos, simply due to his involvement with the traitor legions. The fact that he has actually dealt with daemons gives him a unique persepctive amongst many other mortals. I mean the guy beat down a host of plaguebearers with some help, but they're still daemons. That and he faced down the "new and improved" Solun Decius, Lord of Flies. Garviel (should he still be alive) also has dealt with Xavyer Jubal who was warped in the Wisperheads. All-in-all, I think it much more likely that they are a militant arm of the soon to be Ordo Malleus and perhaps the founding fathers of the Grey Knights once all is said and done. We'll jsut have to keep reading to find out.

precinctomega
30-08-2007, 12:31
It is my considered - albeit guarded - opinion that Garro was one of the two unnamed persons at the meeting that saw the split between the Resurrectionists and the Inquisition, with Promeus and Moriana.

In addition, I wonder if he wasn't the hooded figure who joined the Senatum Imperialis with the assent of the Primarchs, claiming to represent the Orders of the Emperor's Holy Inquisition.

R.

mick005usa
30-08-2007, 15:15
As I said earlier, it would just be out of character for the Imperium to keep these marines alive. The fact that Garro and co. were effectively interned on Luna upon their arrival shows the extreme caution that Malcador (acting on behalf of the Emperor) used when interacting with these individuals.

The "loyalist traitors," for want of a better description, were kept at arms length upon their arrival and viewed with trepidation, to say the least. This was before the Emperors little incident with Horus and the atrocities committed by the Traitor Legions transpired. To think that the powers that be would have spared Garro and the rest after the effective death of the Emperor is, to me, a tremendous leap of faith. It goes contrary to the spirit of the Imperium and the zeal with which they prosecute traitors. If anything, in the aftermath of the Battle of Terra, there would have been a resounding call for the death of any of the traitors, regardless of the loyalty they themselves professed. As a quick side note, we take for granted the knowledge of the Dark Angels "fall from grace." Their secrecy, however, means that in game terms, the Inquisition would have relatively little knowledge of the existence of these fallen Angels.

Clearly, the authors of the series could use "artistic licence" to defecate all over my theory. It would certainly be "warm and fuzzy" to think that Garro and the others would be rewarded for their loyalty and the tenacity with which they fought for the Emperor. In that respect, it is certainly easy, even comfortable, to assert that Garro or some combination of the other loyalists laid the groundwork for the 666th. The problem is, however, the spirit of 40k is not warm and fuzzy. The Imperium paints with a broad brush, and it seems impossible to believe that they would have spared any of the traitors, regardless of their actions.

Vesica
30-08-2007, 16:43
I get your point about it not been fluffy to keep them around because of their chapters heresy, but as i have said before what about the Dark Angels? by that idea they would be declared traitors by now.

ryng_sting
30-08-2007, 17:48
Or it was simply convenient. They were lying around doing nothing, and the position, for which there was no precedent, suited their talents. Nothing 'warm and fuzzy' about it.