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themandudeperson
25-08-2007, 15:35
I've been kicking the idea around of starting a Tomb Kings army and I made up a list using army builder. I don't know all the ins and outs of their list being that I don't have the book yet and I probably won't start the army for many months, but I figured I'd throw out a prototype army list up and see what people think. On the tabletop, I'm most interested in having an army based on these three aspects: Mobility, Magic and Missile fire. I believe this list hits all three but is suffering in durability and close combat prowess. Also, I'd like to keep the model count down without making the army too frail as money is a definate consideration. Anyway, enough rambling:

Lord:
Hierophant:
Liche Priest with Hieratic Jar, Cloak of the Dune
290
Heroes:
General:
Tomb Prince with Light armor, Enchanted Shield, Flail
114
Liche Priest with Plaques of Mighty Incantations
145
Liche Priest with Staff of Ravening
160
Liche Priest with Staff of Mastery
155

Core:
3x 5 Heavy Horsemen with Champions
3x94=282

Special:
18 Tomb Guard with full command and Banner of the Undead Legion
271
Tomb Scorpion
85
3 Ushabti
195
3 Carrion
72



Rare:
Screaming Skull Catapult with Skulls of the Foe
110
20 Dogs of War Halfings with bows
120

Lord/Hero Total:864
Core Total:282
Special Total:623
Rare Total:230
Point Total: 1999
Model Total: 66

He Who Is Him
25-08-2007, 20:25
Couple of problems with your list:

1. Too many Characters - While taking 5 characters would be nice with a 2000 pt army, you can't. You probably misread the rules for army creation. You can only have 4 characters (either 3 heroes 1 lord, or 4 heroes).

2. Heavy Horsemen suck - Heavy Horsemen suck. You should really only use them if you plan on running down the field and getting into CC, and even then, don't expect them to do much (they NEED flank support).

3. Champions - Don't really need them. Most of my TK units bring just the standard (though i do run a full command in the Tomb Guard). An extra WS2 ST3 (4 on the charge) attack isn't worth as much as the banner's consistent +1 to combat resolution

4. Enchanted shield w/ flail - The flail requires two hands, so the shield would really only come into play in missle fire, or after the first round of combat (Where you would switch from using the flail to hand weapon and shield). Ditch the shield and grab some magic armor (of the ages) and a great weapon. It'll give your prince some staying power and he'll rip units up (especially if he's in the TG unit).

5. Staff of Mastery - Staff sucks, cost too much.

6. DoW Halflings - I like where your head is at with cheap bowmen, but using a rare spot isn't worth it. Your core archers are better than they look on paper (always hitting on 5+ regardless of range or moving isn't shabby). Also, none of your incantations will work on them, incantations can only target undead units. You can only get 15 skele archers for the same price as 20 halflings, but when you factor in the extra round of shotting with no modifiers, the fact they cause fear, and the option of healing and extra movement, it becomes a waste of rare slot for the halflings.

In short, drop the halflings for a unit of skele archers. With the points you'll get from dropping the extra priest (with the staff of mastery) and the rare slot from the halflings, grab another SSC or CoS. Switch your champions for standard bearers. Do... something with the heavy horsemen (your core should be skele archers and Tomb Swarms if you're doing a shooty list). I'd probably mount the non-hierophant liche priests as well (Staff of ravening only has an 18" range). The best strat with TK missile lists is to bring a butt-load of skele archers and SSCs or a CoS then reforming them for combat. Your special choices are good, they are war machine/mage hunters (carrion and Scorp) and the hammers to your skele anvils (Ushabtis and TG). Rare units in TK (SSC and CoS) are vital to a TK missile list, no Dogs of War unit can justify the use of the rare slot (maybe a cannon, maybe).

fubukii
26-08-2007, 12:34
Heavy cav arent bad in a tk army but if you want to run them they have to be in big units. Basically they are just a skeleton thats us2 with a extra attack but double the move and str 4 on the charge :P. But yea run them in units of 15 and you will start to like them. throw in some flanking units and you should see success.

Bazzal
28-08-2007, 02:23
pretty much same as above, but i would consider using chariots rather than heavy horsemen (they really do suck), and why oh why halflings,ok yes there cheaper, but u always hit on 5's n cause fear with your own arhers and you dont get the extra round of shooting with them and you coul dget another rare choice, either catapult for a shooty army or casket of souls just to scar your opnt that bit extra. so in short get a tomb king (makin chariots core) and get rid of halflings. plus with king in tomb guard you have some serious hiting power when used correctly

themandudeperson
28-08-2007, 12:57
Well, to start with, like I said, I don't have the army book and I don't know ALL of the rules for Tomb Kings. Also, I should have explained what I meant with "mobility" more: It's my belief that no army can be effective in any since of the word if it A) can't shoot B) can't cast magic C) can't close with the enemy to keep from getting shot to death. I really hadn't intended this to be taken as an attempt at a hardcore shooty list. I just tried to address those three ideas with it. Before I revise it, and believe me I will.. I had archers and a warmachine for shooting, 5 casters for magic and 4 special choices and 3 units of calvary that can quickly close with the opposition due to either high movement, the urgency spell or both. Now to explain some of the things that were going through my brain when I created this list:
I thought the halfings would A) be something unexpected, B) be cheaper(both monetarily and point-wise, btw I was wrong on both counts) C) work out the same as far as wounds caused per turn as an equal number of stationary skeleton bowmen having smite casted on them and D) army builder words TK's spells poorly and says "cast on any friendly unit" so I thought 40 BS 4 shots would trump 40 BS 2 shots from the skellies.
Also, I kinda FUBAR'ed the characters by having one too many. I thought the rules was a lord and four heroes, not four characters of which one can be a lord.
As far as the Tomb Prince's equipment, I chose that gear mostly to keep his costs down while affording him a decent armor save and offense. He's mostly there because I think for TK armies you HAVE to have a Hierophant and a General. (let me know if I'm wrong on that)
With the Heavy Horsmen, do you think they could be effective at one unit of 8 and one of 7, both with standards only? I mainly intend to use their high movement with urgency to cover most of the board in the first turn and attack missile troops. If neccessary, both units would hit the same enemy unit together. In addition, does urgency only allow your regular 8" from them or can you march/charge with it?
I really don't want chariots if I can avoid them.. it's more of a personal taste thing. I know... If I don't like them, then why the hell am I going after an army themed after the Egyptians who were famed for the use of chariots in combat? Also, I think a Tomb King would detract from my magic phase too much, and if what I've read so far is true, TK armies are utterly dependant on their magic succeeding.
I like the idea of the casket of souls, it has a cool model and it's light of death attack is promising against gobbos, but against dwarves and even "average" leadership armies, it's going to be hard to get much effectiveness out of it. It could serve as a great dispell dice sucking blackhole.. making my opponent so obsessed with stopping that one spell he ignores all my others. But damn, even with 3 liche priests instead of four and a liche high priest, I'll still be blowing the hell out of the magic phase regardless.

themandudeperson
28-08-2007, 13:08
after quick deliberation, here's my revised list:

Lord:
Hierophant:
Liche Priest with Hieratic Jar, Cloak of the Dunes
290
Heroes:
General:
Tomb Prince with Armor of the Ages, Shield, Great Weapon
139
Liche Priest with Plaques of Mighty Incantations
145
Liche Priest with Staff of Ravening
160


Core:
1x 7 Heavy Horsemen with Standard
124
1x 7 Heavy Horsemen with Standard
124
1x 19 Skeleton Warriors with Bows
152

Special:
19 Tomb Guard with full command and Banner of the Undead Legion
283
Tomb Scorpion
85
3 Ushabti
195
3 Carrion
72


Rare:
Screaming Skull Catapult
90
Screaming Skull Catapult
90

Character Point Total:745
Core Point Total:440
Special Point Total:635
Rare Point Total:180
Army Point Total:2000
2000

Bazzal
28-08-2007, 13:20
you still cant have 3 liche priests, and a high priest, unfortunatly in a tomb king army you need 1 priest to be your heirophant and 1 king/prince to be the general. yes tomb king army needs magic, but the tomb king still casts 2 incantations, true there nowhere near as powerful, but they still require dispellin. tomb archers can move and fire without penelty keepin your mobilty high. true the casket cant move so it'll need protection, but it will mean your opnt would either move towards it, trying to kill it, or face away from it (iv seen it happen). if your wanting to keep your heavy cav, you could mount a priest join them with staff of ravening, giving mobility, another bound spell to be dispelled. plus this would allow yours horsemen to move 16" per turn technically, or even move "8 then charge 16" thats 24" in one go.

themandudeperson
28-08-2007, 14:25
bah, the words in text weren't the words coming out of my head. I didn't mean 3 liche priests.. I meant 2. Am I off base with this or are TK units not allowed to march?

Bazzal
29-08-2007, 11:41
no tomb kings cant march, hence the dependence on magic to let them move again, pos even charge :-)

themandudeperson
29-08-2007, 21:50
is it a good idea to keep the full command for the grave guard or does the higher weapon skill make the champion worth the points and do I really need/want the musician?

He Who Is Him
30-08-2007, 02:12
I wouldn't really run the heavy calv in less than 10 (15 is my ideal). Any less and they get shot to **** in the first round and ur charge turns into a free over-run move for the enemy unit that just crushed your two remaining horsemen (T3 AS 4+ turns into nothing really quick).

You do have to have a Hierophant and a General, but a Tomb Prince general in a skele warriors unit turns the unit into an actual fighting force, and his one casting die might not look very good, but eating a dispell dice or getting off an incantation from a character that is a 'fighting char' isn't bad.

Your troops can never march, even with the incantation (it just gives them a 4" or 8" extra movement).

Tomb Kings still cast 2 incantations (at 1 die), but if you run a TK, you can have 3 priests, which is pretty good on magic, and they are pretty bad ass in CC. I can understand the chariot thing, I'll never run a Bone Giant (I had a bad experience...I don't want to talk about it).

The Casket of Souls is pretty fun to field. It causes Terror in the game, and causes Terror in real life. I've seen people completely change their lists just because the heard I was bringing the model. Some people just avoid it for entire games and just chase u around it like it was terrian. It's an extra 2 casting dice for your magic phase, and while it may look somewhat bad against high leadership armies, it's not. Once it takes out 4 heavy calv in one turn (no armor save for light of death), you'll never leave home with out it. The high leadership armies usually have high cost units, making those couple of wounds more than worth it. And against the horde armies who can soak up wounds, you'll cause enough panic checks to break a unit or four. And its a cool model.

themandudeperson
31-08-2007, 19:30
Ok.. I haven't added up the points yet, BUT if I wanted to carve out some points to allow two units of 10 bowmen and one unit of 15 heavy horsemen for my core choice then replace one of my catapults with a casket of souls.. who should get the axe? I really want the ushabti and I think the casket guard and scorpion are pretty much neccessary so that leaves dropping either a liche or the carrion.. what do ya'll think?

He Who Is Him
01-09-2007, 01:04
From your ealier posts and the last one, this is your army so far (I think)

Lord:
Hierophant:
Liche Priest with Hieratic Jar, Cloak of the Dunes
290
Heroes:
General:
Tomb Prince with Armor of the Ages, Shield, Great Weapon
139
Liche Priest with Plaques of Mighty Incantations
145
Liche Priest with Staff of Ravening
160


Core:
1x 15 Heavy Horsemen with Standard
254
1x 10 Skeleton Warriors with Bows
80
1x 10 Skeleton Warriors with Bows
80

Special:
19 Tomb Guard with full command and Banner of the Undead Legion
283
Tomb Scorpion
85
3 Ushabti
195
3 Carrion
72


Rare:
Screaming Skull Catapult
90
Casket of Souls
165

Character Point Total:745
Core Point Total:414
Special Point Total:635
Rare Point Total:255
Army Point Total:2049

So you only have to drop 49 pts, which can be done without sacrificing units. Depending on which liche u put on the CoS, u might be able to cut down some points on equipment (maybe ditch the Plaques of Mighty Incantations because of the add spell dice from the CoS or if ur high priest will ride the CoS just give him the collar of shapeshift). You could also ditch the musician in the Tomb Guard (taking 1 wound from a tie in CC is meaningless). For the last 25 or 30 pts left, I would just drop 2 of the calv, or a calv and a Tomb Guard (if you're under 20 Tomb Guard, 18 vs 19 won't make much a difference). You could also drop the shield on your TP (it only works against missile fire or if you decide to fight with HW/SH in the second round of CC). Other than that, it looks pretty good.

themandudeperson
01-09-2007, 03:05
With the plaques of mighty incantations, is it only good for the liche who has it or do all liches take advantage of it? Army Builder describes it poorly, so I'm clueless..

BigRob
01-09-2007, 07:09
My best advice, as someone who has played Tomb Kings even back when they had scroll magic, is to get the army book .Tomb Kings have always had funky rules and in my experience Army Builder can have its moments.
So beg or borrow the army book (Or sneak a read in GW on vets night) and you'll have a better idea of who does what, whats nails and whats best left buried under the sand and you can see if its worth buying.
I've always thought an aggressive Tomb Kings list is best, but I'm probably the only person who likes Settra and his special army. Hmmmm chariot goodness.
Have fun
Rob

themandudeperson
01-09-2007, 12:33
I plan to before I start actually buying models, right now I'm just trying to settle on a general idea that will work. With my past two armies I've made the same horrible mistake: Buying a bunch of models while I waited for my Army Books to show in the mail, then realizing that once I decide on a theme for my army I've wasted about $200 on models I don't need or want. I'm just trying to avoid that..

He Who Is Him
01-09-2007, 21:28
The plaques of mighty incantations only apply to the liche that is carrying it, which only ends up letting you get off an extra incantation or two a game. Not worth it IMO

themandudeperson
02-09-2007, 02:11
well, Hieratic Jar is single use only.. so it won't help me that much either I don't think.. so I could drop that and the plaques and really cut back on the points if need be..

He Who Is Him
06-09-2007, 02:53
Yeah, I usually only use the jar if my strat really depends on getting extra movements (like luring knights into charge by 3 units), but that's really just when I messing around with random strats to keep my regular opponents on their toes

Tomb king13
06-09-2007, 18:01
Well if you want an agressive list,2000pts here some ideas.
1) Lord:Tomb King with Destroyer of Eternities and Collar of Shapesh.
2) Hero:Liche Priest with 2 Dispell Scrolls and/or mount on steed.
>> :Liche Priest (Hiero.) Hieratic Jar, Cloak of the Dunes or if you want to be more sure for your Hiero. you can take the Golden Ankrha.-The idea of using the Jar and Cloak is very nice :)-
3) Core: 2 small teams of bowmen (11x2)
: 4 Chariots Full command with Icon of the Sacred Eye
4) Special: 20 Tomb Guards Full Command with the Icon of Rakaph and the Lord with them.
>> : 4 Ushabtis
>> : 4 Carrions
>> : 1 Tomb Scorpion
and final
5) Rare: 2 Catapults of Foe.
Use your Scorpion and Carrions to destroy warmachines and kill Characters.Like the Lords of the VC.The catapults will do serious (shooting) damage to other units.Sent the Guards with the Lord and the Chariots into battle, don't keep them back.But keep the bowmen and the Ushabtis back to protect the catapults and the Hiero.
All these cost 1997 Pts.

If anyone notise anything wrong tell it to me.

He Who Is Him
07-09-2007, 02:09
Not enough characters. TK should always run the max number of characters.