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azimaith
26-08-2007, 14:58
Edited: Narrative Cult already looked at.

Genestealer Cult (Player Variant)

On many Imperial worlds deep within catacombs or underhives lurk the vanguard of the Tyranid fleet. The Genestealer. Around him his cult, lead by a bloated Patriarch. Though the nature of the genestealer threat remains undetected on most Imperial worlds until too late, sometimes cults fight for territory or new recruits with other gangs in the depths of the hive.

Outlaws:
Genestealer cults do not automatically start as outlaws. They must be reported as any other gang, but have a "Mostly Outlawed" status. Any genestealer cult with any hybrids has a -2 modifier to their roll for Outlawed status. If they utilize a purestrain they lose an additional -3(But only for the game they use the purestrain!) If you use a purestrain or a hybrid against an Enforcers warband you become automatically outlawed when reported.

Overall genestealer cults operate as normal Imperial citizens once they are well established trying to stay out of the spotlight until the hive fleet descends at which point they rush forth to cause chaos and confusion amongst the planetary defenders.

As such they do not suffer any special penalties until reported.

Conversion:
Genestealer cults do their best to subvert local populace's by infecting them with a Tyrannic implant which overwrites their DNA. Genestealer cults do not hold territory as other gangs do, instead they can attempt kidnappings to convert others to their cause.

When generating territories, instead of using the standard Necromunda chart, utilize the genestealer conversion chart. You get 2 rolls on the kidnapping chart to start with no chance of detection. When generating income from your victims as a cult you do not need to dedicate a model to gather income but you must organize a kidnapping attempt. For some its a simple snatch off a street corner, for others its nearly impossible. Furthermore every victim has a chance of being detected and killed, whether by the Redemptionist in the underhive to the arbites in higher quarters.

To accomplish a kidnapping roll 2d6 and try to get under the listed score. After each kidnapping attempt there is a chance of detection which increases for each member that takes part in it. A roll of a 12 always fails.
If you roll over the number the Kidnapping is considered "Botched" consult the "Botched Kidnapping" chart below adding any modifiers.

You may always choose *not* to attempt a kidnapping.


When rolling for detection roll two D6's and add the result together, subtracting the same amount from your dice rolls as you did for the kidnapping attempt. If you score under the discovery roll your victim is discovered and is removed after a single game. (Though you still get one games worth of income). If you are detected and the difference between the detection roll and the kidnapping roll is an unmodified 4 (thats your base roll with no subtractions) then you must also roll on the botch table and you must add the botch modifier).

Finally after every game roll a D6 for each victim the gang has. On a one that infected victim has died, either caught by another gang, killed by the Redemption, arbites, or worse.

In the case of a raid the attempt is against the cults local hub. This is particularly difficult raid mission for the attacker and what he might encounter there is listed later.

2-6: Underhiver 2d6 credits. Standard procedure for this sort of kidnapping is grabbing a poor sod off a street corner. As such it is a very easy to accomplish. On an 8 or less the kidnapping was successful. For every extra gang member you add to this you may subtract 2 to your roll.

Detection Check: 3

Botch Modifier:-1

7-8: Hiver:2D6+6 credits. Standard procedure for grabbing a hiver is somewhat more cautious than that of an underhiver. They often have people who will wonder where they've gone and those peoples words carry more weight with local authorities, be it gang or otherwise. The kidnapping roll is 6 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Score:4

Botch Modifier:0

9-10: Middle Hiver 3D6+6 credits. Kidnapping a middle hiver represents considerable risk to the cult as they often live in areas patrolled regularly by arbites. The kidnapping roll is 5 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Score: 5

Botch Modifier: +1

11: Minor Lower Hive Noble: 4D6+6. Kidnapping a minor noble is extraordinarily difficult. The job must be done so fast and so cleanly its rarely is successful. Still, the rewards are quite good. The Kidnapping roll is 4 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Roll: 6

Botch Modifier:+2

12: Local Leader:4d6+6: Local leaders may not have the credits of a noble but most carry a more useful currency, influence. Kidnapping a local hive leader is very difficult however as other constantly look to them for guidance. If a local leader is kidnapped successfully you may add 2 to all detection rolls made until the Local Leader is killed.
The kidnapping roll is 3 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Roll: 7

Botch Modifier: +3

Botch Chart:
1-2: "Those Crazy Kids!" Your attempted kidnapping has been ignored as a stunt pulled by juves attempting to prove themselves. No further effect.
3-4: Rumors: Your kidnapping didn't make very big news, but there are rumors that there are kidnappers about. Add +1 to your next kidnapping roll. This lasts until you kidnap someone again or a game passes.
5: "Something Fishy" You count as being automatically reported to the Arbites and must roll for being outlawed.
6+: "Exposed!" Your gang is exposed as a tendril of a genestealer cult! You are automatically outlawed. Gangs that fight against you in the future count as "deputized". Roll for each victim feeding you money to see if they are discovered. The automatic deputization of enemy gangs lasts for 3 games or until you capture a local leader.

Despite not being a "House" list in the conventional sense, they still use the income charts. Being horrible subversive alien hybrids doesn't mean you don't need to eat!

The Cult List
Unlike most gang lists, the Genestealer cult list isn't run by a single leader but arranged in a heirarchy based on their generational status. Genestealer cults begin looking like any other gang, but as time passes they grow more and more monstrous. As this is a tendril of a well established cult, they may buy second generation breeders to try and jump start this. As the growth of a hybrid takes too long to be expressed in game terms the breeders may be considered to "trade in" newly born hybrids to the cults main cells where they can be raised for already grown hybrids to help them survive.

First Generation: The initial infected of the Genestealer cult, they are fanatically devoted to their cult. However, without guidance from latent psychics like a hybrids they quickly fall apart.

M:4 WS:2 BS:2 S:3 T:3 A:1 W:1 I:3 Ld:6
A First Generation must test on its leadership for stupidity if it is out of the range of the synaptic chain. The Synaptic chain is detailed later.

A cult may have as many First Generations as they wish. After the initial gang building you may not buy more until you breed.

A First Generation can use pistols, and basic weapons. They have access to the stealth and shooting skills.
30 Credits.

Second Generation: The children of the first generation, the second generation cultist is somewhat more feral and powerful, sometimes even expressing mutations later in life. These form the base line soldiers of the cult as they are more capable of operating independently.

M:4 WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 A:1 W:1 I:3 LD:7
A second generation must make a leadership test for stupidity if it is out of the range of the synaptic chain. The synaptic chain is detailed later.

A second generation can use pistols and basic weapons. They have access to the stealth and shooting skills and ferocity. They may mutate if their chart is rolled.

You may have as many Second Generations as you have First Generations. After the initial gang building you may not buy more until you breed.

A second generation costs 35 points.

Third Generation: Hybrids.
M:5 WS:4 BS:2 S:4 T:3 A:2 W:1 I:4 LD:8
The third generation hybrids are often the first signs of the taint of a genestealer cult. Horribly mutated and feral, hybrids are the cults elite shock troops. They also have a slight latent telepathy by which they can give orders to the rest of the cult.

If a third generation is not in a synaptic chain it must test for stupidity.

A third generation can use pistols and basic weapons.

A third generation always has a close combat weapon for each of its hands. Its two basic arms are included above but it may have more.

A third generation must be given a mutation and may be given up to 2, but no mutation can be repeated.

A hybrid has access to the Stealth, Ferocity, and Muscle Skills.

A hybrid costs 120 credits base and may not be purchased at the start of a gang. Details on obtaining a hybrid are later.

You may have one hybrid for every 4 second generations you have.

Generation Four: Purestrains:
M6: WS:6 BS:- S:4 T:4 A:4 W:2 I:6 LD:10 Sv: 5+
Purestrain genestealers are the stuff of nightmares for any veteran of the Tyrannic wars. Lightning fast and absolutely lethal in combat a purestrain can tear a man apart in mere moments. Luckily purestrains tend to skulk in the deepest depths of the underhive far from prying eyes while the cult presents a more human face. There are some occassions where a purestrain will join a cult band if the need is dire.

A purestrain may not use any weapons. It IS a weapon.

A purestrain has brood telepathy, detailed below.

A Purestrain's intelligence may not be used for Bottle Tests. Its leadership score is derived from its animal ferocity, not its capability to lead.

A purestrain causes Fear.

A purestrain is immune to psychology.

A purestrain may be given any single biomorph before the game it is to be used on.

A purestrain does not gain experience, nor does it remain in the gang after its mission. Do not roll for injury for purestrains. A wound caused on a purestrain is with 2D6 experience rather than 1D6 if dealt in close combat.

Purestrains begin with the skills:Catfall and Infiltrate. A purestrain causes a critical hit on a single roll of a 6, not two.

You may never buy a purestrain, they only appear when the cult is in dire need. The rules for getting a purestrain for a battle are below.

Advancing Generations
A genestealer cult has graduated generations where the cult becomes less and less human. These generations occur too slowly to be depicted in a standard necromunda gang but as part of an established cult, particularly successful tendrils will be given members from other older cells.
As such the cult advances through generations. At the start of a gang you have access to both First and Second Generation members but no others. A cult would not risk itself in its first generation. You have the standard one thousand credits to spend on outfitting your initial gang.
After the first game a Genestealer cult may attempt breeding to produce third generations or second generations. Roll a D6 for each breeding couple (Obviously you will need 2 first generations or 2 second generations or some combination there of to breed them. Alternatively you may breed first generations with uninfected.) and consult the chart below:
First Generation to General Public:
1-3: No luck, the attempt is wasted.
4-5: The breeding results in a human child who will be converted to a first generation.
6: The breeding results in a normal human child and an unwittingly converted breeder. Both are converted to first generations and you may now buy 2 more for your cult.

First Generation to First Generation:
1-4: The breeding results in a normal human child who will be converted to a First Generation. You can now recruit another first generation.
4+: The breeding is a success resulting in a second generation child who will be raised in another cell of the cult. Your gang can now recruit another second generation. (But you must pay for it as normal).

First Generation to Second Generation:
1-2: The breeding results in a normal human child who will be converted to a First Generation. You can now recruit another first generation.
3-5: The Breeding results in a second generation. You may now recruit another second generation.
6: Generational Leap! The breeding results in a Third generation. You may now recruit a hybrid.

Second Generation to Second Generation:
1: 1-2: The breeding results in a normal human child who will be converted to a First Generation. You can now recruit another first generation.
2-4: The Breeding results in a second generation. You may now recruit another second generation.
5-6:The breeding results in a Third generation. You may now recruit a hybrid.

While third generations can breed they may only breed with other third generations. They are too genetically different from second and first generations.
Third Generation to Third Generation:
1-4: Third Generation born, you may now recruit a hybrid.
5-6: Purestrain! A purestrain genestealer is born and is quickly spirited away. You may now recruit another hybrid or request 2D6x10 credits from the prime cults treasury to fund your successful breeding program.

Conversion
The ability of a genestealer cult to subvert people to their cause is of their most feared abilities. Any gang member who is captured by a genestealer cult is implanted. After this they are released (No ransom, all equipment, they want it inconspicuous). Treat it as a 66 on the serious injury chart as the disoriented ganger has to find his way back to his gang. The genestealer cult may now count all implanted gangers from any gang as a first generation for breeding purposes. (Its assumed they can sneak out). Furthermore if a member of the genestealer cult is taken out by an implanted ganger and they roll a "Killed" for the serious injury re-roll it. The implanted gangers would have had to fight against the idea of killing its kindred which would be difficult but not impossible (as its a new implant). If a member of the genestealer cult is captured by a gang containing an implanted ganger he counts as automatically having a "hidden blade" representing the gangers unconscious help. There is no further effect.

Obtaining Purestrains
Purestrains are a valued commodity of any genestealer cult. They are not deployed lightly. If a genestealer cult has at least 2 hybrids (if it doesn't its too small to care about) and its facing a gang with 2x its gang rating and it has spent at least a thousand credits it may use one genestealer. If its facing a gang with 3x its rating it may use 2, and so on and forth. All purestrains get a single biomorph as well. You may choose one.

Remember sense is needed here. The goal of a Genestealer cult isn't to minimize your total experience to get genestealers, its to play a different kind of gang.


Hybrid Mutations, Second Generation Mutations, and Genestealer Bio-Morphs.
Second Generation Mutations:
1: Tough Hide: The Second generations hide has become tough and chitinous. It has a 5+ basic save.
2: Clawed: The second generations hands have become clawlike, it always counts as having a close combat weapon for each hand, even when weilding a two handed weapon.
3: Agile: A little of the genestealers legendary speed exists in this second generation. It gains +1 movement.
4: Misshapen: This second generation in hunched in the fashion of a stalking genestealer and his body shows signs of alien taint. He causes Fear.
5: Olafactory Nodes: This Second generation has a keen sense of smell. It can detect hidden models within double its initiative range.
6: Hive Node: This second generation has a stronger brood telepathy and thus can double his range for the synaptic chain.

Hybrid Mutations
1: Extra Arm: The hybrid can carry an extra weapon and gains an extra attack. 20 Credits.
2: Chitinous Body: The hybrid has grown platelike growths over its body giving it a 5+ basic save. 10 Credits
3: Rending Claws: This hybrids claws have fused together forming large incredibly strong digits. He adds +1 to his weapon base weapon skill.*. 20 Credits
4: Horrifying: This genestealer hybrid has a visage similar to that of a genestealer and thus causes fear. 15 Credits
5: Hardened Body: This genestealer hybrid has had its body hardened and its bones thickened. Its toughness increases by one.* 30 Credits
6: Ferocity: This hybrid has overactive adrenals, it can not shoot any weapons and must charge if able. It no longer fumbles in combat and is immune to psychology. 35 points.
Extra statistics gained from mutations count as if they had been rolled for. Thus if a Hybrid took the Hardened body mutation he would only be able to gain one more point of toughness to his racial max of 5. Same with Rending Claws.

Biomorphs:
1: Toxin Sacs: Add +1 strength to the genestealer.
2: Flesh Hooks: The genestealer may fire them hitting on a 4+ with a range of 6". If they hit they target makes a strength check, if he fails he gets pulled 6" toward the genestealer. This may drop him off a ledge!
3: Feeder Tendrils: This Genestealer has complex sensory tendrils surrounding its mouth. As such they may automatically detect hidden models at double their initiative range.
4: Extended Carapace: This genestealer has large chitinous plates that are thicker than normal. It has a 4+ save.
5: Scything Talons: This Genestealers foreclaws are large talons rather than hands. It gains another attack.
6: Adrenal Glands: This genestealer has large adrenals which pump it full of aggressive hormones. It may frenzy one turn of the game.

The Synaptic Chain
Genestealer cults remain intact by virture of an innate shared telepathy between its members. Without this they are without direction and unmotivated. But together, they form a near unbreakable bond.

To represent this all members of a genestealer cult exude an aura of telepathy referred to as the Synaptic Chain. Each models synaptic chain is equal to half his leadership characteristic in inches rounding up. For each member of the gang within that area each member adds +1 to their leadership and may test using the highest leadership in that particular chain.

Brood Telepathy
A Purestrains brood telepathy is so strong is can cause a synaptic chain aura equal to its leadership value in inches. It also allows him to operate independently.

Experience and Advancement
First Generation: 0 experience.
Second Generation: 20+D6 experience.
Hybrids: 60+D6 Experience.

Second Generations advance identically to normal gangers except that a roll of 2 or 12 on the advancement chart results in a new mutation. After a single mutation 2 or 12's count as skills instead.

Hybrids already have mutations and do not gain more thus advance as normal.

Maximum Stats:
First Generation:
M:4 WS:6 BS:6 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:6 A:3 Ld:8

Second Generation:
M:5 WS:7 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:6 A:4 Ld:9

Third Generation:
M:5 WS:8 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:6 A:5 Ld:10

Weapons
Pistols:
Autopistol: 15
Laspistol: 20
Stubgun: 10

Ranged Weapons:
Lasgun:25
Autogun:20
Shotgun: 20

Close Combat Weapons:
Knife: Free/5
Club: 10
__________________

Eazy-O
28-08-2007, 01:36
At the moment i don't have the time to wade through all the rules and i'd prolly miss something anyway, so i'll try to read through later.

I just wanted to say that there have been a few attempts at genestealer cults, i even have one on my disk and there have been others floating about.

Not to do any advertising, but i do believe the chaps over at Eastern Fringe Forums might be able to help you out more, plus point you in the direction of the already attempted rules. -> http://easternfringe.com/forum/index.php

Tomothy
30-08-2007, 07:53
Do you honestly believe this gang is balanced?

ZomboCom
30-08-2007, 11:44
From a quick glace through this seems stupidly overpowered.

azimaith
31-08-2007, 00:26
Do you honestly believe this gang is balanced?

I don't expect *anything* to be balanced the first time around. The way I was looking at is was a good option for a narrative type game with a beefy gang of cultists that continually is a thorn in the side of other gangs till the narrative campaigns conclusion (thus requiring the cult to advance).

I wouldn't suggest thing for a normal gang.

Tomothy
31-08-2007, 03:58
I don't expect *anything* to be balanced the first time around. The way I was looking at is was a good option for a narrative type game with a beefy gang of cultists that continually is a thorn in the side of other gangs till the narrative campaigns conclusion (thus requiring the cult to advance).

I wouldn't suggest thing for a normal gang.
I don't expect it to be completely balanced no. Not all of my ideas were. But i at least tried to reach the point where i thought they were balanced, especially before posting online.

I had no idea what it was going to be used for. All i had to go on was that this was a suggestion for a genestealer cult. Even given that i still don't like them.

Have you seen any of the other versions doing the rounds? There have been one or two on the eastern fringes and one or two on specialist games. There was one in citadel journal as well. I'm not a huge fan of any of them to be honest but they are good to research, especially people's comments on them, while making your own rules.

I don't like that people keep introducing genestealers and magus' into necromunda. They don't really fit. It's really not 40k so i don't see why the elite troops of the cult army list and the general are making their way down into a gang brawl. You don't see space marine commanders or the arbitrator general of the enforcers kicking it in the underhive. Why can't the level of the cult reflect the level of the gangers and just be part of the genestealer cult, not the command structure.

General points of contention:

1. Your genestealers gain experience. No other versions have that; it is particularly bad on such powerful starting pieces.

2. You have genestealers. I would prefer at the very most for one genestealer to be gotten as a special character, mentor only would be satisfactory.

3. You use special rules associated with other gangs. It reduces the uniqueness of both when this is done.

4. You just made the special rules more powerful. The cannibalism rules aren't meant to be used to gain money. Eating hybrids you can. Your capture rule is better than the redemptionist one. Come up with something different for seeding ideally rather than having them convert.

5. Your income rules seem a little weird. They seem hard to start but could quickly become over-powered.

6. Back to genestealers. They're undercosted. If you look at the price of the thing from an independent perspective and think "Hellz yeah I'll take 10!!!!!!" it's probably too cheap.

7. They all (except the cultists) have too many skill groups available.

8. I don't like wyrd powers on fighters that can gain experience as a general rule. They weren't designed to be used that way.

9. The cultists should make up the majority of the gang but the way you have recruitment set up they don't need to. You need at least to put in that 50% of the gang has to be cultists. I think it would be more interesting to have 75%.

10. Your hybrids are undercosted. Same as genestealers. Extra movement is very powerful in this game. +1 M should translate to at least 20 creds extra on their cost.

azimaith
31-08-2007, 04:40
I don't expect it to be completely balanced no. Not all of my ideas were. But i at least tried to reach the point where i thought they were balanced, especially before posting online.

I had no idea what it was going to be used for. All i had to go on was that this was a suggestion for a genestealer cult. Even given that i still don't like them.

Have you seen any of the other versions doing the rounds? There have been one or two on the eastern fringes and one or two on specialist games. There was one in citadel journal as well. I'm not a huge fan of any of them to be honest but they are good to research, especially people's comments on them, while making your own rules.

I've read them, the difference is this isn't designed to be a normal "PC" run gang.



I don't like that people keep introducing genestealers and magus' into necromunda. They don't really fit. It's really not 40k so i don't see why the elite troops of the cult army list and the general are making their way down into a gang brawl.

Two reasons.
One, Genestealer cults always have purestrains and patriarchs. Its just a mandatory part of the process, the patriarch is an original infecting stealer, the magus is the outside face, and the pure strains are the inevitable result of genestealer infection.

Two, There has to be something to differentiate this from Scavvys and a using a couple models with the extra arm mutation. Especially when your talking about a narrative "GM" run gang.



You don't see space marine commanders or the arbitrator general of the enforcers kicking it in the underhive.

Thats because there isn't one Arbitrator general for each enforcer squad while there is one patriarch per cult.



Why can't the level of the cult reflect the level of the gangers and just be part of the genestealer cult, not the command structure.

One, then it would be scavvys.
Two, the command structure is vital to the cults basic existence. Without it they have no real personal capability. Once they are subverted they essentially become thralls, controlled like any other gaunt or gargoyle.



General points of contention:

1. Your genestealers gain experience. No other versions have that; it is particularly bad on such powerful starting pieces.

I've played warbands where members don't get experience in Mordheim. You'll find that non-exp gaining members get beaten to death by exp pumped up normal guys. Since advancement occurs at a slower rate the more starting experience you have you won't necessarily see many advances or have them especially often.



2. You have genestealers. I would prefer at the very most for one genestealer to be gotten as a special character, mentor only would be satisfactory.

Genestealers are an integral and center point in a genestealer cult. Without genestealers you have scavvys with a single mutation. Genestealers stalk underhives and catacombs on infected worlds and would be available to a cult sizable enough to birth them.



3. You use special rules associated with other gangs. It reduces the uniqueness of both when this is done.

Cannabalism would be expected in a genestealer cult if it were starving.



4. You just made the special rules more powerful. The cannibalism rules aren't meant to be used to gain money. Eating hybrids you can. Your capture rule is better than the redemptionist one. Come up with something different for seeding ideally rather than having them convert.

Cannabalism can't be used to gain money. You get food and thats it.

As for conversion, its just part of genestealers and genestealer cults. Its no worse than the pirate conversion rules in Mordheim.



5. Your income rules seem a little weird. They seem hard to start but could quickly become over-powered.

The income rules are supposed to be hard to start. The point is that they get powerful units but are hamstrung by costs. Their way of getting new members is through conversion, their way of getting money for gear is through small sources than can be gone in a heartbeat. They have a barely smaller chance (16%) of losing a income source as they do to get it.



6. Back to genestealers. They're undercosted. If you look at the price of the thing from an independent perspective and think "Hellz yeah I'll take 10!!!!!!" it's probably too cheap.

Which is why each genestealer costs at least 250 to get. (150 per stealer+4 cultists who need to be babysit. One genestealer plus one mandatory patriarch plus 4 cultists comes out to 510 points and the cultists are only really operational within 18" of the patriarch. None of the cultists have any ranged weapons in that case either. So if you took 10 you'd need 2760 creds right off the bat, and then you'd have no ranged weapons.



7. They all (except the cultists) have too many skill groups available.

I don't see it that way.
They fulfill the role of "Heavies" for the gang. According to Unknown Warriors Article they get 4 skills (granted techno is one, but that doesn't make sense for genestealers)



8. I don't like wyrd powers on fighters that can gain experience as a general rule. They weren't designed to be used that way.

Wyrd skills are available of on experience gaining ratskin shamans and the powers are relatively low for magus's, focusing primarily on leadership.



9. The cultists should make up the majority of the gang but the way you have recruitment set up they don't need to. You need at least to put in that 50% of the gang has to be cultists. I think it would be more interesting to have 75%.

You need 4 cultists to every genestealer and 2 cultists to every hybrid. How is that not the majority?



10. Your hybrids are undercosted. Same as genestealers. Extra movement is very powerful in this game. +1 M should translate to at least 20 creds extra on their cost.
The hybrids actually cost 100 points each since you need deadweight cultists (who need leadership babysitting) to spawn them. My initial costing was 75 per hybrid and 150 per purestrain (as they are now) with a cultist exclusion for their requirements. (IE 4 cultists must be maintained soley to the genestealer, you can't have a genestealer and 2 hybrids for 4 cultists)

Tomothy
31-08-2007, 05:14
I've read them, the difference is this isn't designed to be a normal "PC" run gang.
That doesn't mean you should deliberately make them overpowered. Building inherent flaws into it means the rules can't be used by anyone else except you.


Genestealer cults always have purestrains and patriarchs. Its just a mandatory part of the process, the patriarch is an original infecting stealer, the magus is the outside face, and the pure strains are the inevitable result of genestealer infection.
That doesn't mean they have to be part of the gang. They can be special characters that turn up at the end of the campaign. The gangs from House Escher do not represent the entirety of House Eschers gangs. The cults from the genestealer cult do not need to represent the entirety of the genestealer menace. In fact, they shouldn't.


Two, There has to be something to differentiate this from Scavvys and a using a couple models with the extra arm mutation. Especially when your talking about a narrative "GM" run gang.
It does not need to be HQ and elite choices from 40k armies. They do not suit the scale of what a GANG represents in necromunda.


Thats because there isn't one Arbitrator general for each enforcer squad while there is one patriarch per cult.
No but there is one arbitrator general per division. Which more accurately represents the comparative strengths seeing as how a squad is 4-5 men. And a cult is definitely not that. There is one Arch Zealot per redemptionist cult but you don't see an Arch Zealot accompanying every fricking gang of them that roams the underhive.


One, then it would be scavvys.
Only if you were so unimaginative as to build them that way.


Two, the command structure is vital to the cults basic existence. Without it they have no real personal capability. Once they are subverted they essentially become thralls, controlled like any other gaunt or gargoyle.
I doubt it. I doubt the command structure has to accompany every roaming group of their cultists. It would be physically impossible. I doubt they have to mentally control each group of their cultists.


I've played warbands where members don't get experience in Mordheim. You'll find that non-exp gaining members get beaten to death by exp pumped up normal guys. Since advancement occurs at a slower rate the more starting experience you have you won't necessarily see many advances or have them especially often.
That is not a good reason to give experience to exceptionally powerful starting pieces.


Genestealers are an integral and center point in a genestealer cult. Without genestealers you have scavvys with a single mutation. Genestealers stalk underhives and catacombs on infected worlds and would be available to a cult sizable enough to birth them.
And this is why genestealer rules will NEVER be official. Because the people who want them can't get past this one sticking point. Genestealers are too powerful to exist as a basic choice in the gang-based level of combat that is Necromunda. Not only that but they wouldn't be wandering around and revealing themself in every little skirmish the cult finds itself in. That would quickly expose the cult and bring the imperium down on it.


Cannabalism would be expected in a genestealer cult if it were starving.
I really doubt it would.


Cannabalism can't be used to gain money. You get food and thats it.
Uhm. If it saves you money. Then it makes you money. If it costs less to buy one of your choices (in this case a hybrid) and it eat him than it costs to buy food then you're making money by doing it.


As for conversion, its just part of genestealers and genestealer cults. Its no worse than the pirate conversion rules in Mordheim.
And you have missed my point. By taking rules from other gangs (resilient, too similar mutation rules, too similar conversion rules) you are devaluing the other gang as well as being unoriginal yourself. Boring.


The income rules are supposed to be hard to start. The point is that they get powerful units but are hamstrung by costs. Their way of getting new members is through conversion, their way of getting money for gear is through small sources than can be gone in a heartbeat. They have a barely smaller chance (16%) of losing a income source as they do to get it.
They support something I don't agree with. The conversion and cannibalism rules.


Which is why each genestealer costs at least 250 to get. (150 per stealer+4 cultists who need to be babysit. One genestealer plus one mandatory patriarch plus 4 cultists comes out to 510 points and the cultists are only really operational within 18" of the patriarch. None of the cultists have any ranged weapons in that case either. So if you took 10 you'd need 2760 creds right off the bat, and then you'd have no ranged weapons.
Its called hyperbole. A little bit of exaggeration to make my point. Plus your reasoning is completely backward. They do not cost 250. They cost 150 for the stats. That you have to have 4 cultists for every one is a minor sticking point. Numbers help. They make great meat shields to get the power pieces through. Especially cheap ones with no xp. They artificially lower your GR. They are not dead weight. The fact that you have to have 4 of them has no bearing on the fact that what you are actually paying for the genestealer is a lot less than it is worth.


I don't see it that way.
They fulfill the role of "Heavies" for the gang. According to Unknown Warriors Article they get 4 skills (granted techno is one, but that doesn't make sense for genestealers)
Your hybrids have access to 5 and there's technically no limit to how many you can have in a gang. You can only have 2 heavies.



Wyrd skills are available of on experience gaining ratskin shamans and the powers are relatively low for magus's, focusing primarily on leadership.
You have specifically described him as a wyrd, which means he takes perils of the warp tests. Ratskins don't. I had a proper read through the powers and this isn't as big a sticking point as the others. Although warp fire is quite powerful its not so important as the rest of my issues.


You need 4 cultists to every genestealer and 2 cultists to every hybrid. How is that not the majority?
Because there is no relation between the two made in your list. They are separate. Each 4 cultists that allows you a genestealer also allows you 2 hybrids. If you want them to joined and not independent you need to say so.


The hybrids actually cost 100 points each since you need deadweight cultists (who need leadership babysitting) to spawn them. My initial costing was 75 per hybrid and 150 per purestrain (as they are now) with a cultist exclusion for their requirements. (IE 4 cultists must be maintained soley to the genestealer, you can't have a genestealer and 2 hybrids for 4 cultists)
Wrong wrong wrong. Juves are not dead weight. Redemptionist cultists are not dead weight. Unmutated scavvies were not dead weight. The fact that you had to have 50% cultists in a redemptionist gang did not make the cultists dead weight. They have their uses and at their cheap cost can be used very succesfully. Not the least to be eaten. Just because you need to buy them doesn't suddenly mean that the cheap costs of the other guys are "suddenly" balanced out. It does not work like that.

azimaith
31-08-2007, 21:11
That doesn't mean you should deliberately make them overpowered. Building inherent flaws into it means the rules can't be used by anyone else except you.

Im not publishing for necromunda. And if I'm facing off against 2x my gang rating yes, they should be "overpowered".



That doesn't mean they have to be part of the gang. They can be special characters that turn up at the end of the campaign. The gangs from House Escher do not represent the entirety of House Eschers gangs. The cults from the genestealer cult do not need to represent the entirety of the genestealer menace. In fact, they shouldn't.

Considering this gang is supposed to represent a small self-contained cult rather than a global menace it does.



It does not need to be HQ and elite choices from 40k armies. They do not suit the scale of what a GANG represents in necromunda.

They aren't anywhere near as bad as broodlords and elites (though genestealers are troops).


No but there is one arbitrator general per division. Which more accurately represents the comparative strengths seeing as how a squad is 4-5 men. And a cult is definitely not that. There is one Arch Zealot per redemptionist cult but you don't see an Arch Zealot accompanying every fricking gang of them that roams the underhive.



Only if you were so unimaginative as to build them that way.

That seems to be what you want. No purestrains, no magus, no patriarch. This is scavvys with extra arms.



I doubt it. I doubt the command structure has to accompany every roaming group of their cultists. It would be physically impossible. I doubt they have to mentally control each group of their cultists.

The patriarch spends most of his time sitting around the lair while his cultists go out lead by hybrids with more of a synaptic link. (Which is why hybrid can get leadership auras. If your just a roving group of cultists then your creds total is too low to be a big gang in which case it would accompany them (As its just starting out). If its high then its no random roving band.



That is not a good reason to give experience to exceptionally powerful starting pieces.

Yes it is.
In fact thats a very good reason to give them experience.



And this is why genestealer rules will NEVER be official. Because the people who want them can't get past this one sticking point. Genestealers are too powerful to exist as a basic choice in the gang-based level of combat that is Necromunda.

Genestealers are not too powerful as long as they are properly limited in numbers. Since this is not a general use gang they are supposed to be powerful. Powerful enough to turn a 2-1 fight into a fair one.



Not only that but they wouldn't be wandering around and revealing themself in every little skirmish the cult finds itself in. That would quickly expose the cult and bring the imperium down on it.

The scavvys can bring their mutants around whenever they go out, why wouldn't stealer cults. They exist in the depths of the underhive where the imperium doesn't even patrol and they are automatically outlaws.



I really doubt it would.

Tyranids make their way through the cosmos eating entire worlds. How is it they would suddenly become picky when it came down to throwing Joe into the stew pot to avoid starvation.



Uhm. If it saves you money. Then it makes you money. If it costs less to buy one of your choices (in this case a hybrid) and it eat him than it costs to buy food then you're making money by doing it.

Perhaps you need a math refresher. T X W X S for a hybrid = 4x1x4=16.
16<55(minimum for a hybrid). So how is 1 cred per person equaling 16 credits for 16 members equal to 55 credits for 16 members?



And you have missed my point. By taking rules from other gangs (resilient, too similar mutation rules, too similar conversion rules) you are devaluing the other gang as well as being unoriginal yourself. Boring.

Yet just above you say above I shouldn't add any uniqueness by using genestealers. Make up your mind. Genestealer Hybrid mutations are background based. Resilience is to avoid genestealers from being too easy to put down permenantly when considering the crappy crappy income of the cult and the eventual increase in weapons that can do so easily.



They support something I don't agree with. The conversion and cannibalism rules.

The conversion rules are part of background. Genestealer cults without conversion is like a ratskins gang without native. Cannabalism is there to help cut down on constant feeding costs thanks to their crap income.



Its called hyperbole. A little bit of exaggeration to make my point. Plus your reasoning is completely backward. They do not cost 250. They cost 150 for the stats. That you have to have 4 cultists for every one is a minor sticking point. Numbers help. They make great meat shields to get the power pieces through.

Except they don't make good meat shields because you need to stay close to them at all times or they become Stupid. This means you either need a magus to stick with them or a hybrid with a skill to stick near them. They also need to stay close together to benefit which renders them vulnerable to blast weapons.



Especially cheap ones with no xp. They artificially lower your GR. They are not dead weight. The fact that you have to have 4 of them has no bearing on the fact that what you are actually paying for the genestealer is a lot less than it is worth.

It does because they are stupid without some one babysitting them. Thus you need to take that into consideration. If you don't you'll find yourself taking bottle tests very rapidly.



Your hybrids have access to 5 and there's technically no limit to how many you can have in a gang. You can only have 2 heavies.

You can only have half as many hybrids as normal cultists, that is a limit. Hybrid skills and genestealer skills are there to represent innate biological mutations just like the scavvy mutation table you get to use later as advances.



Because there is no relation between the two made in your list. They are separate. Each 4 cultists that allows you a genestealer also allows you 2 hybrids. If you want them to joined and not independent you need to say so.

I plan on it.



Wrong wrong wrong. Juves are not dead weight. Redemptionist cultists are not dead weight. Unmutated scavvies were not dead weight. The fact that you had to have 50% cultists in a redemptionist gang did not make the cultists dead weight. They have their uses and at their cheap cost can be used very succesfully. Not the least to be eaten. Just because you need to buy them doesn't suddenly mean that the cheap costs of the other guys are "suddenly" balanced out. It does not work like that.
Your forgetting the most important factor. Juves, Redemptionist cultists and umutated scavvies do not suffer from stupidity. This means that if your not babysitting them they are going to spend all their time running around diving for cover, not fighting back or standing around slack jawed. Thats a penalty considering this means either:
A: Your genestealers can not move their full speed in order to stay behind their meat shield.
B: Your genestealers need to abandon their meatshield to chase after enemies and risk getting gunned down.

Considering that you can easily fit a an autocannon into many starting gangs all you'd need is the marksman skill and a couple pot shots at a brood lord to render an entire group of cultists utterly useless.

Dyrnwyn
31-08-2007, 21:31
Settle down you two. Lets straighten some things out. Azimaith, the Cult as listed is incredibly overpowered. I know you intend it to be, as it would be for a narrative campaign where the gangs would be forced to work together to survive, but Tomothy has a valid point; this list is useless for any other purpose, and were someone to field it, they could mop the floor with most other gangs. Lets try an build a viable cult list that a GM could modify to be tougher for a narrative campaign, rather than an overpowered gang list specifically for that purpose.

Tomothy, rather than argue with Azimaith over his choices in building the list and nitpicking what you don't like, lets suggest changes to balance it.

First off, I suggest a compromise on the Patriarch. Yes, the cult should have one, but it should not be a regular sight in most fights. Much like the Matriarch and Patriarch for Spyrers, it should be a rare event to see it. How about the Patriarch is only fielded in the event that the Cult is the defender in a Raid or Rescue Mission. Possibly only a Raid. After all, the Patriarch is to important to the cult to go waltzing around fighting gangs. And put some kind of penalty in for losing him. I realize losing the 18" Leadership aura and possibly your most badass model is something of a penalty in itself, but it needs to reinforce the idea that while the Patriarch is horribly strong, you shouldn't be risking him in combat except where necessary. Perhaps a loss of some experience, or have the entire cult be affected by Stupidity if he is put out of action. The Magus should be the equivalent of the Leader in this list, with the Patriarch a horror in the depths of the Genestealer lair.

Also, I suggest reducing the Patriarch's aura to 12", and losing the +2/auto ld 10 on the Hybrid's Synapse/Synapse Magus power. A 4x4 board is a lot smaller than the 6x4 you play most 40k games on.

Cannibalism might be expected in cults, but I doubt they'd eat a valuable member of the cult, rather a prisoner or some corpses from a battle. I'd drop this from the list as it's mostly unnecessary. If you really want to include it, make it only useable on members who roll up "dead" on the injury chart.

Conversion is iffy. The way Pirates shanghai other warband members in Mordhiem works very differently, and doesn't come up all that often. It's a leadership roll off, with the hero either losing all stat bonuses and skills and becoming a pirate henchman, or him being pressed into service where he keeps his skills and stats but loses his equipment and gains access to a very limited equipment list. Pirates can only recruit captured Heroes, and possibly dead henchmen, only if they win the scenario. Your implant attack can happen to any opposing model that happens to get into combat with a Stealer. I'd rethink the way this works. Have it come into play less often, and have the converted ganger join as a Cultist, losing any skills and equipment he might have, but keeping his stats. Maybe he should lose those too. I realize this isn't consistent with the background, but this is for balance.

I think some of the prices and stats need adjusting. Cultists cost the same as a Juve with better stats, aside from Ld which can be negated by a nearby Ld Aura. I think their WS and BS should be reduced to 2, with them maintaining the Ld 5/Stupidity. Give them access to pistols in addition to basic weapons.

The money rules are interesting, but seem rather lopsided. I'd make the values closer to each other, because I can see the cult starving quite a bit at the beginning. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this one.

Organization needs to be shuffled. Treat the Cultists like juves, the Hybrids like gangers, and the Stealers like heavies. The Magus is the Leader and the Patriarch is a special character that shows up rarely. In this vein I'd hold the cult at two purestrains, and reduce the skill lists available to the hybrids and purestrains.

I'm out of time for now, but I'll make a few more suggestions later.

azimaith
31-08-2007, 22:08
Settle down you two. Lets straighten some things out. Azimaith, the Cult as listed is incredibly overpowered. I know you intend it to be, as it would be for a narrative campaign where the gangs would be forced to work together to survive, but Tomothy has a valid point; this list is useless for any other purpose, and were someone to field it, they could mop the floor with most other gangs.

Well that was the entire point. Though I wouldn't go as far as "incredibly overpowered". You need to realize that if the patriarch eats it then your list is bottling on a leadership of 5 and if they pass it every cultist is testing for stupidity at a leadership of 5 (which basically means they're all running for cover or drooling).



Lets try an build a viable cult list that a GM could modify to be tougher for a narrative campaign, rather than an overpowered gang list specifically for that purpose.

If I was going to build a balanced player list it would revolve around an increasing scale per game based on the gangs "Births" as each successive generation gives rise to more mutated hybrids till they become purestrain.




First off, I suggest a compromise on the Patriarch. Yes, the cult should have one, but it should not be a regular sight in most fights. Much like the Matriarch and Patriarch for Spyrers, it should be a rare event to see it. How about the Patriarch is only fielded in the event that the Cult is the defender in a Raid or Rescue Mission. Possibly only a Raid.

If were talking about a player list the gangers would be part of a well embedded genestealer cult rather than a new one. Since the other is a new cult it requires a patriarch to participate.



After all, the Patriarch is to important to the cult to go waltzing around fighting gangs. And put some kind of penalty in for losing him. I realize losing the 18" Leadership aura and possibly your most badass model is something of a penalty in itself, but it needs to reinforce the idea that while the Patriarch is horribly strong, you shouldn't be risking him in combat except where necessary.

Well actually patriarchs that are lost get replaced by the next stealer in line so they aren't really horribly risky. In the narrative list the patriarch will spend his first games babysitting cultists way in the back or the gang will be down to its genestealers, hybrids, and patriarch with no fire support in sight. In a player list the patriarch wouldn't play a part at all unless the cults existence was threatened, and in a well embedded cult that would be the same likelyhood of house escher or house goliath being threatened. Granted a splinter cult (as above) would have a patriarch with them all the time until they carved out a lair and even then it would accompany its thralls until it was well enough embedded it could survive.



Perhaps a loss of some experience, or have the entire cult be affected by Stupidity if he is put out of action. The Magus should be the equivalent of the Leader in this list, with the Patriarch a horror in the depths of the Genestealer lair.

Well if the patriarch goes out of action all your cultists are going to basically be negated and your going to be taking a bottle test. The Magus isn't necessarily a leader to start, he becomes a leader once the cult is well established, till then hes basically a thrall like anyone else. Essentially a new cult is:
Patriarch-Cultists, and Genestealer.
And an embedded cult is
Patriarch-Magus-Hybrids-Cultists and Genestealers in the leadership scale.



Also, I suggest reducing the Patriarch's aura to 12", and losing the +2/auto ld 10 on the Hybrid's Synapse/Synapse Magus power. A 4x4 board is a lot smaller than the 6x4 you play most 40k games on.

If it were a narrative list the 18" is important to prevent the patriarch from being too much of a babysitter. Its hard to be a big scary storyline monster when you need to stand around next to your thralls all game. In a player based list the patriarch would simply send his orders down to his established magus who would send it to each member using hybrids and leadership would be based on the distance between each member. Brood telepathy essentially.



Cannibalism might be expected in cults, but I doubt they'd eat a valuable member of the cult, rather a prisoner or some corpses from a battle. I'd drop this from the list as it's mostly unnecessary. If you really want to include it, make it only useable on members who roll up "dead" on the injury chart.

Well they'd eat whoever the patriarch told them to eat. Eating a valuable member of the cult is like shooting yourself in the foot. It only costs a single credit to feed everyone, if your starting to need to kill hybrids to feed the cult (which hybrids would gladly submit to since they have no free will) then your cult is in such dire straits that would be what would happen. Its self-balancing. No member of the cult is cheaper to eat than he is to buy.



Conversion is iffy. The way Pirates shanghai other warband members in Mordhiem works very differently, and doesn't come up all that often. It's a leadership roll off, with the hero either losing all stat bonuses and skills and becoming a pirate henchman, or him being pressed into service where he keeps his skills and stats but loses his equipment and gains access to a very limited equipment list. Pirates can only recruit captured Heroes, and possibly dead henchmen, only if they win the scenario. Your implant attack can happen to any opposing model that happens to get into combat with a Stealer.

On the flipside the only way a cults are going to get new members most of the time considering they're income is terrible. The reason why the conversion rules are intentionally harsh is because its a narrative gang which means they won't always be fighting other gangs. There would be plenty of scenarios where no one would see hide nor hair of a genestealer or its cult. Thus the possibility for mass conversion is limited to specific games.

If I were doing this as a general gang the conversion would only work on models that roll "killed" or "Captured" and that were taken out by genestealers or hybrids with the appropriate mutation.



I'd rethink the way this works. Have it come into play less often, and have the converted ganger join as a Cultist, losing any skills and equipment he might have, but keeping his stats. Maybe he should lose those too. I realize this isn't consistent with the background, but this is for balance.

The great thing about narrative gangs is that they can be rebalanced in the middle of the campaign. If your a Arbitrator and you think too many conversions are occuring you can always put out a : "You'll never take me alive" rule where gang members, when faced with genestealers bearing down on them ready to convert them into monsters can take an initiative or perhaps leadership tests to "Do themselves" rather than become a thrall.



I think some of the prices and stats need adjusting. Cultists cost the same as a Juve with better stats, aside from Ld which can be negated by a nearby Ld Aura. I think their WS and BS should be reduced to 2, with them maintaining the Ld 5/Stupidity. Give them access to pistols in addition to basic weapons.

The reason why cultists cost the same is pretty much because they are either babysit or ineffective. To really run a cult that will work on the first game you'd need a patriarch and a magus with synaptic link, the magus taking care of the cultists and the patriarch tearing peoples faces off. Thats around a third of the warband flat out before any sorts of weapons. Later on all it takes is a single model with a long ranged gun and marksman to break every cultist you've got with a single shot as soon as the patriarch is out of range. Its meant to be the achilles heel the "heros" discover after bloody battles with the cult that lead them to victory.

If it were a player based gang the rules would be alot softer on cultists and they'd be much more similar to juves and gangers than thralls.



The money rules are interesting, but seem rather lopsided. I'd make the values closer to each other, because I can see the cult starving quite a bit at the beginning. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this one.

Well its not supposed to be fixed. They're supposed to spend their time eating rats or whatnot at one credit a mouth until they get an income source (who hopefully doesn't get caught). Any genestealer cult should store at least some money in their stash from their initial creds.

If this were a PC gang they would simply start with a group of infected sources and be able to infect more by sending out hybrids or a genestealer (while running the risk of getting caught by authorities).



Organization needs to be shuffled. Treat the Cultists like juves, the Hybrids like gangers, and the Stealers like heavies. The Magus is the Leader and the Patriarch is a special character that shows up rarely. In this vein I'd hold the cult at two purestrains, and reduce the skill lists available to the hybrids and purestrains.

That would be fine in a player list, to be honest i'd run one genestealer for a player list as its "Brood Leader".

In the narrative list you need a bit more bite. It would be boring to fight a genestealer cult without genestealers in it.
Like I said, this is very different from what i'd run a player run cult list. A player run cult list is a much microscopic look at a cult. You'd be one tiny cell of one larger cult with tenous ties to the big daddy himself.

The narrative cult is designed to face players with a growing genestealer menace they eventually need to wipe out.

Tomothy
01-09-2007, 02:52
Well that was the entire point. Though I wouldn't go as far as "incredibly overpowered". You need to realize that if the patriarch eats it then your list is bottling on a leadership of 5 and if they pass it every cultist is testing for stupidity at a leadership of 5 (which basically means they're all running for cover or drooling).
Well I think it's going to be fricking hard to take down the patriarch. Plus, at the point where they might be able to you should have some synapse hybrids.


If I was going to build a balanced player list it would revolve around an increasing scale per game based on the gangs "Births" as each successive generation gives rise to more mutated hybrids till they become purestrain.
You do know that arbitrator rules don't have to be overpowered to provide a challenge. How often do you plan on using the gang compared to how often the players are going to be playing? What kind of scenarios do you plan on using them in? How do you plan to go about revealing they're a cult (if you even plan on keeping it hidden at the beginning, which i think would be cool).


If were talking about a player list the gangers would be part of a well embedded genestealer cult rather than a new one. Since the other is a new cult it requires a patriarch to participate.
This sounds a lot more interesting to me and a lot more like what i was talking about.


Well if the patriarch goes out of action all your cultists are going to basically be negated and your going to be taking a bottle test. The Magus isn't necessarily a leader to start, he becomes a leader once the cult is well established, till then hes basically a thrall like anyone else. Essentially a new cult is:
Patriarch-Cultists, and Genestealer.
And an embedded cult is
Patriarch-Magus-Hybrids-Cultists and Genestealers in the leadership scale.
If the patriarch goes down the hybrids' leadership still counts for bottle tests, thats 8. After them there's the magus who starts at 6.



Well they'd eat whoever the patriarch told them to eat. Eating a valuable member of the cult is like shooting yourself in the foot. It only costs a single credit to feed everyone, if your starting to need to kill hybrids to feed the cult (which hybrids would gladly submit to since they have no free will) then your cult is in such dire straits that would be what would happen. Its self-balancing. No member of the cult is cheaper to eat than he is to buy.
It doesn't say anywhere it only costs a single credit. In the actual starvation rules it costs 3 credits. Hence my problem.


If I were doing this as a general gang the conversion would only work on models that roll "killed" or "Captured" and that were taken out by genestealers or hybrids with the appropriate mutation.
I don't like it. I would give them a D6 settlement chance to get a juve from that house at the end of every game. Once you get one the chance goes.


The reason why cultists cost the same is pretty much because they are either babysit or ineffective. To really run a cult that will work on the first game you'd need a patriarch and a magus with synaptic link, the magus taking care of the cultists and the patriarch tearing peoples faces off. Thats around a third of the warband flat out before any sorts of weapons. Later on all it takes is a single model with a long ranged gun and marksman to break every cultist you've got with a single shot as soon as the patriarch is out of range. Its meant to be the achilles heel the "heros" discover after bloody battles with the cult that lead them to victory.
Not really. You get an 18" range from the patriarch to set up an overwatch base with basic weapons. Thats pretty strong. If they get too close the patriarch takes them out. Meanwhile you get genestealers and hybrids to work in teams to hunt people down. Considering the stats and cost you've put on your guys it would be a damn hard to win against.


That would be fine in a player list, to be honest i'd run one genestealer for a player list as its "Brood Leader".
Ergh. Been done. Nobody likes it except people who want to play the cult.


Im not publishing for necromunda. And if I'm facing off against 2x my gang rating yes, they should be "overpowered".
You put them up here for people to see and comment on. That would have been useful to know. All i was saying was you're making it hard for other people to find use in your rules. There are other ways to play "catch" up. Make them join fights already under way. Give them extra xp to start. Give them more creds to start.


The scavvys can bring their mutants around whenever they go out, why wouldn't stealer cults. They exist in the depths of the underhive where the imperium doesn't even patrol and they are automatically outlaws.
You'll forgive me for thinking thats a tiny bit different from genestealers hauling people off and turning them into mindslaves in front of people.


I think some of the prices and stats need adjusting. Cultists cost the same as a Juve with better stats, aside from Ld which can be negated by a nearby Ld Aura. I think their WS and BS should be reduced to 2, with them maintaining the Ld 5/Stupidity. Give them access to pistols in addition to basic weapons.
You need to do this. Even with stupidity they're too good. You could put their Ld back up to 6 if you do this.


Yet just above you say above I shouldn't add any uniqueness by using genestealers. Make up your mind. Genestealer Hybrid mutations are background based. Resilience is to avoid genestealers from being too easy to put down permenantly when considering the crappy crappy income of the cult and the eventual increase in weapons that can do so easily.
Genestealers aren't unique. Everyone that tries to make the gang adds them and all the people that are sick of seeing overpowered genestealer cults shout them down till they go away again. There are other methods to making them less likely to get injured than to give them the rule of another gang. A 6+ save against any injury perhaps?


The conversion rules are part of background. Genestealer cults without conversion is like a ratskins gang without native. Cannabalism is there to help cut down on constant feeding costs thanks to their crap income.
It's not a big deal as they're not supposed to be a player gang. But thats still no excuse, you put the income rules in.


Except they don't make good meat shields because you need to stay close to them at all times or they become Stupid. This means you either need a magus to stick with them or a hybrid with a skill to stick near them. They also need to stay close together to benefit which renders them vulnerable to blast weapons.
The patriarch has 6 movement and is a beast in hth. How is he not going to be moving forward. Which in turns they need to move forward. Your genestealers and hybrids are hth pieces as well. Which means your whole freaking list is moving forward. Which means as long as they stay in front...they're meat shields! Not only that, they have good WS and BS stats, as long as they stay in synapse range (not hard) they are actually a threat and need to be dealt with. Not only that but your hybrids are major cheap and toughness 4. They'll also make excellent shields.


You can only have half as many hybrids as normal cultists, that is a limit. Hybrid skills and genestealer skills are there to represent innate biological mutations just like the scavvy mutation table you get to use later as advances.
Its redundant to give them access to that many skill tables as they're unlikely to be rolling on them all. It just makes the gang look more overpowered. Cut some. Scavvies only mutate on a 12 on the advance roll, which cuts their access to all the skill tables, not a good comparison. Now if on a 2 or 12 only the hybrids and genestealers/patriarch got to roll on the hybrid and genestealer tables (respectively) only, that would be cool.


Your forgetting the most important factor. Juves, Redemptionist cultists and umutated scavvies do not suffer from stupidity. This means that if your not babysitting them they are going to spend all their time running around diving for cover, not fighting back or standing around slack jawed. Thats a penalty considering this means either:
A: Your genestealers can not move their full speed in order to stay behind their meat shield.
B: Your genestealers need to abandon their meatshield to chase after enemies and risk getting gunned down.

Considering that you can easily fit a an autocannon into many starting gangs all you'd need is the marksman skill and a couple pot shots at a brood lord to render an entire group of cultists utterly useless.
I'm not forgetting anything. You need to move all your guys forward for them to be useful. Your opponent is most likely going to be moving most, if not all, of his guys forward. As soon as you reach basic weapon range (and thats not hard) all of your extremely cheap cultists become useful. Then your genestealers can charge out. And its really not hard to keep your patriarch out of line of sight of a move or fire piece. I've had experience with spyrers and high movement pieces, they are incredibly dangerous. Especially on some scenario choices like ambush. Plus there's a shooting modifier (-1) for fighters that move over a certain distance (10") in a turn. I'm not even going to bother addressing the likelihood of an autocannon turning up as heavy weapon usage differs so greatly from group to group.

azimaith
01-09-2007, 07:28
Well I think it's going to be fricking hard to take down the patriarch. Plus, at the point where they might be able to you should have some synapse hybrids.

Hard to guarantee synapse hybrids if your rolling for skills (and hoping you roll a skill advance anyhow). Its simple to get an autocannon right away.

Considering an autocannon does D6 damage, has an armor save of -3 and is a high impact weapon and all, as soon as you get one the marksman skill (or get the patriarch as the closest target) you may as well kiss him goodbye.

The Patriarch at the start is the lynchpin of how the gang stays together, without him the warband will collapse practically instantly.



You do know that arbitrator rules don't have to be overpowered to provide a challenge. How often do you plan on using the gang compared to how often the players are going to be playing? What kind of scenarios do you plan on using them in? How do you plan to go about revealing they're a cult (if you even plan on keeping it hidden at the beginning, which i think would be cool).

Well its there to fight against 2 or more opponent gangs so you need more bang for your buck at a thousand credits. It wouldn't really be any less or more overpowered had the costs increased by 2x and I gotten 2k to spend instead. This isn't a player gang. If it were a player variant alot of things would need to change (as they require a different kind of consistent playability).



This sounds a lot more interesting to me and a lot more like what i was talking about.

Well for a player gang its important the gang be well embedded because every gang needs some kind of a base to fall back on. With an embedded cult you could get a more sensibly constant source of income to pay and advance as well as sources to draw from for later advancement.



If the patriarch goes down the hybrids' leadership still counts for bottle tests, thats 8. After them there's the magus who starts at 6.

The idea behind the narrative gang is a very tyranid breakdown in how you cut through a cult gang. Optimally (with some experience against them) your kills will go:
Patriarch>Hybrids>Magus>Purestrains>Cultists. Cutting out the thrall leadership from beneath them.

This is also a match to the speed of each model. The Patriarch, Hybrids, and Purestrains all moving faster (thus being more exposed than the rest of the cult as the closest target) causing you to either take inefficient movement or risk serious damage.



It doesn't say anywhere it only costs a single credit. In the actual starvation rules it costs 3 credits. Hence my problem.

Its not standard starvation:
"So Many Mouths To Feed" Cultists need to eat like anyone else, normally its only a single credit to feed each one as they will eat nearly anything. Alternatively, they may eat a member of the cult, a captured person or animal. A person or animal feeds a number of people equal to their Str X T X W.



I don't like it. I would give them a D6 settlement chance to get a juve from that house at the end of every game. Once you get one the chance goes.

I think conversion is too important a factor of a cult to not keep it in an aggressive fashion, but thats just me.



Not really. You get an 18" range from the patriarch to set up an overwatch base with basic weapons. Thats pretty strong. If they get too close the patriarch takes them out. Meanwhile you get genestealers and hybrids to work in teams to hunt people down. Considering the stats and cost you've put on your guys it would be a damn hard to win against.

The thing is basic rifle range is 6" longer than the patriarchs leadership aura which means that if he stays out there hes going to get gunned down and if he goes after them he dies. Certainly you could hunt around with a few genestealers and hybrids but the thing is that with focused fire they won't last long against an enemy whose shooting and walking. Its unlikely you'll have more than 4 of them total (coming out to around 6 wounds with 2 stealers and 2 hybrids) which you should be capable of dealing with unless the patriarch is moving forward too, and if hes moving forward then the cultists will need to go with him, and if they're moving the patriarch can't move any faster than a cultist can walk (unless he doesn't care about them shooting).



Ergh. Been done. Nobody likes it except people who want to play the cult.

Having a genestealer cult without a single genestealer would be like Aliens without its queen. Its just not the same without the big nasty critter leading it. One genestealer can be very reasonable if the list is similar to the Vampire count list or the cult of the possessed list from mordheim.



You put them up here for people to see and comment on. That would have been useful to know. All i was saying was you're making it hard for other people to find use in your rules. There are other ways to play "catch" up. Make them join fights already under way. Give them extra xp to start. Give them more creds to start.

In a last run of campaigns for Mordheim I found enemies were often too easy to fight even when they were battling already. The cults not just there to say: "Hey a bonus objective". Its there to make them say: "Holy crap, if we don't work together were going to get killed!"




You'll forgive me for thinking thats a tiny bit different from genestealers hauling people off and turning them into mindslaves in front of people.

Its different then giant lizard people and scavvys running around with packs of plague zombies or ghouls? Not really, I don't think its any less shocking for the scavvy's ghouls to start eating the dying alive, ditto for plague zombies.



Genestealers aren't unique. Everyone that tries to make the gang adds them and all the people that are sick of seeing overpowered genestealer cults shout them down till they go away again. There are other methods to making them less likely to get injured than to give them the rule of another gang. A 6+ save against any injury perhaps?

I've played enough D6 games to realize that a 6+ save might as well not be a save at all. If you weren't giving them resilience you could give them regeneration that would render minor injuries a temporary problem. No one really expects a genestealer to be stopped by a arm it busted a year ago.



It's not a big deal as they're not supposed to be a player gang. But thats still no excuse, you put the income rules in.

Right, which is why at the end of a game when finances come up short you can smile and tell the players you just ate their juve.



The patriarch has 6 movement and is a beast in hth. How is he not going to be moving forward. Which in turns they need to move forward. Your genestealers and hybrids are hth pieces as well. Which means your whole freaking list is moving forward. Which means as long as they stay in front...they're meat shields!

The problem is that your deployment zone is not large enough (nor would it be conducive to getting there faster) to put them far enough forward. This means if they're playing meat shields your genestealers, hybrids, and patriarch are moving as fast as their cultists, which at 8" a turn is hardly blistering and easily matchable by any other gang.



Not only that, they have good WS and BS stats, as long as they stay in synapse range (not hard) they are actually a threat and need to be dealt with. Not only that but your hybrids are major cheap and toughness 4. They'll also make excellent shields.

Every hybrid needs 2 cultists dedicated to it which cuts down on how many genestealers you can have. Sure they could be meatshields, but if one of them dies (at a minimum of 55) points its going to hurt quite a bit.



Its redundant to give them access to that many skill tables as they're unlikely to be rolling on them all. It just makes the gang look more overpowered. Cut some. Scavvies only mutate on a 12 on the advance roll, which cuts their access to all the skill tables, not a good comparison. Now if on a 2 or 12 only the hybrids and genestealers/patriarch got to roll on the hybrid and genestealer tables (respectively) only, that would be cool.

I've been thinking about cutting some skills actually, specifically combat. I don't think that genestealers or even hybrids really have the presence of mind to really use alot of them. I'm thinking its going to be stealth, agility, ferocity and genestealer for their skills. I haven't written out experience totals or skill rolls yet but I figured i'd follow the scavvy example for species skills anyhow.



I'm not forgetting anything. You need to move all your guys forward for them to be useful. Your opponent is most likely going to be moving most, if not all, of his guys forward. As soon as you reach basic weapon range (and thats not hard) all of your extremely cheap cultists become useful. Then your genestealers can charge out.

The big issue here is that it seems to me your thinking you will have a half dozen stealers to throw at your enemy right away. A genestealer is 250 points in total to get in a gang. That means you can have 2 within a thousand credits (500 points +260 for the patriarch) which leaves you with too little money for another genestealer.
That band at 760 points would be 8x cultists, nothing on them, two genestealers, and one patriarch. Now you can either add a single magus and perhaps a hybrid or around 2 hybrids. Either way your looking at around 13 models with no guns whatsoever. If you were to equip each of your cultists with a lasgun you'd be more effective but would half your numbers. Considering the poor income the likelyhood of you getting another genestealer is very slim and a single lost genestealer would be crushing. With 4-5 tough models and the rest being relatively crappy you wouldn't want to simply run screaming forward without people in the way, which then slows you down in turn.



And its really not hard to keep your patriarch out of line of sight of a move or fire piece. I've had experience with spyrers and high movement pieces, they are incredibly dangerous. Especially on some scenario choices like ambush. Plus there's a shooting modifier (-1) for fighters that move over a certain distance (10") in a turn. I'm not even going to bother addressing the likelihood of an autocannon turning up as heavy weapon usage differs so greatly from group to group.
I know the metagame I play in thus I don't really have an issue with knowing whether an autocannon will turn up.

I do think its important to really quantify what a thousand credits can get a genestealer cult at this cost.

2 stealers requires 8 cultists which is 500 points (200 for the 8 cultists and 300 for two 150 cred stealers) and they have no guns whatsoever. Then you need the patriarch at another 260, thats 760 points for 11 models only 3 of which can operate independently. Its a case of too many eggs in one basket for the cult which helps players to disassemble the cult in a narrative gang after some experience.

Tomothy
01-09-2007, 16:33
Hard to guarantee synapse hybrids if your rolling for skills (and hoping you roll a skill advance anyhow). Its simple to get an autocannon right away.

Considering an autocannon does D6 damage, has an armor save of -3 and is a high impact weapon and all, as soon as you get one the marksman skill (or get the patriarch as the closest target) you may as well kiss him goodbye.
Hard to guarantee? On a piece that is described as the ganger. So i assume starts at 20xp, which means its twice as likely to get the next 4 advances as a heavy is yet you keep assuming you'll get marksman. Which i might add is in a skill table that is otherwise almost completely useless for heavies. Yeah. Also, its very rare (in my experience) to actually see someone use the 300 cred autocannon. So please stop using a heavy with marksman and an autocannon as why your patriarch isn't overpowered. It's a stupidly limited scenario that actually goes a lot further as to proving why it is overpowered. If thats all you can think of that can act as a good deterrent maybe you need to try and take a step back.


The Patriarch at the start is the lynchpin of how the gang stays together, without him the warband will collapse practically instantly.
You keep saying that. If that is the case its not all that hard to keep someone out of sight.


Well its there to fight against 2 or more opponent gangs so you need more bang for your buck at a thousand credits. It wouldn't really be any less or more overpowered had the costs increased by 2x and I gotten 2k to spend instead. This isn't a player gang. If it were a player variant alot of things would need to change (as they require a different kind of consistent playability).
No, but it makes more sense and makes the rules more useful to other people.


The idea behind the narrative gang is a very tyranid breakdown in how you cut through a cult gang. Optimally (with some experience against them) your kills will go:
Patriarch>Hybrids>Magus>Purestrains>Cultists. Cutting out the thrall leadership from beneath them.
Thats nice. I'm also sure its not going to be as easy as all that.


This is also a match to the speed of each model. The Patriarch, Hybrids, and Purestrains all moving faster (thus being more exposed than the rest of the cult as the closest target) causing you to either take inefficient movement or risk serious damage.
They only need to move slowly until they close to the range of the enemy. Of course you're not going to run them ahead needlessly making a tiny bit of extra use from their movement only to get them shot.


I think conversion is too important a factor of a cult to not keep it in an aggressive fashion, but thats just me.
And i dislike the unoriginality of it. It already exists for Redemptionists and genestealer progression is really not supposed to happen that fast.


The thing is basic rifle range is 6" longer than the patriarchs leadership aura which means that if he stays out there hes going to get gunned down and if he goes after them he dies. Certainly you could hunt around with a few genestealers and hybrids but the thing is that with focused fire they won't last long against an enemy whose shooting and walking. Its unlikely you'll have more than 4 of them total (coming out to around 6 wounds with 2 stealers and 2 hybrids) which you should be capable of dealing with unless the patriarch is moving forward too, and if hes moving forward then the cultists will need to go with him, and if they're moving the patriarch can't move any faster than a cultist can walk (unless he doesn't care about them shooting).
The patriarch moves with, and protects your fire base of cultists. They get an extra 6" at which to use his Ld, which is 10. He protects them, killing anything that gets close to his 10" charge range. The genestealers stay back behind the meat shields unless a good cover avenue presents itself. They are flankers sneaking into hth and crushing stuff. The hybrids are toughness 4 and only cost 50 creds they can easily back up either one.


Having a genestealer cult without a single genestealer would be like Aliens without its queen. Its just not the same without the big nasty critter leading it. One genestealer can be very reasonable if the list is similar to the Vampire count list or the cult of the possessed list from mordheim.
Yeah I don't like mordheim. The different gangs aren't particularly balanced. I've heard bad things about possessed.


Its different then giant lizard people and scavvys running around with packs of plague zombies or ghouls? Not really, I don't think its any less shocking for the scavvy's ghouls to start eating the dying alive, ditto for plague zombies.
Yes. It is. Genestealer cults are known about and feared. The imperium is on the look out for them. There are mutants on most imperial worlds, but if there is a rumour about genestealers connected to them suddenly the inquisition gets interested.


I've played enough D6 games to realize that a 6+ save might as well not be a save at all. If you weren't giving them resilience you could give them regeneration that would render minor injuries a temporary problem. No one really expects a genestealer to be stopped by a arm it busted a year ago.
Really. An unmodified D6 save? You know, it provides better odds for dealing with injuries than a re-roll does. And you gave genestealers regeneration. Not exactly a fluffy choice.


Right, which is why at the end of a game when finances come up short you can smile and tell the players you just ate their juve.
Their captured juve? That you automatically converted. Right.


The problem is that your deployment zone is not large enough (nor would it be conducive to getting there faster) to put them far enough forward. This means if they're playing meat shields your genestealers, hybrids, and patriarch are moving as fast as their cultists, which at 8" a turn is hardly blistering and easily matchable by any other gang.
Its hardly slow. Its the usual speed and you can put on bursts if needed. And the deployment zone depends on the scenario. You don't need to be moving at maximum speed every possible turn to be getting the most out of having more movement than your opponent.


Every hybrid needs 2 cultists dedicated to it which cuts down on how many genestealers you can have. Sure they could be meatshields, but if one of them dies (at a minimum of 55) points its going to hurt quite a bit.
How is it a minimum of 55 points? A cultist costs 25. He's got the same chance of dying as anyone else. Its only your income system that means it hurts and I've told you i dislike your fragile income.


The big issue here is that it seems to me your thinking you will have a half dozen stealers to throw at your enemy right away. A genestealer is 250 points in total to get in a gang. That means you can have 2 within a thousand credits (500 points +260 for the patriarch) which leaves you with too little money for another genestealer.
That band at 760 points would be 8x cultists, nothing on them, two genestealers, and one patriarch. Now you can either add a single magus and perhaps a hybrid or around 2 hybrids. Either way your looking at around 13 models with no guns whatsoever. If you were to equip each of your cultists with a lasgun you'd be more effective but would half your numbers. Considering the poor income the likelyhood of you getting another genestealer is very slim and a single lost genestealer would be crushing. With 4-5 tough models and the rest being relatively crappy you wouldn't want to simply run screaming forward without people in the way, which then slows you down in turn.
I don't think you'll have half a dozen. All you need is one well used one and you can really hurt your opponents gang. Besides, that 760 point gang? Buy 8 autoguns. 920 points. That means you can buy two more cultists and another autogun. Suddenly your opponent has 2 genestealers, a patriarch and 9 autoguns to deal with. Yeah, i'd be worried about that. Meat shields doesn't mean you try to get them killed, just that they make sure they are the closest target rather than your expensive pieces.


I know the metagame I play in thus I don't really have an issue with knowing whether an autocannon will turn up.
You're the one that keeps bringing the weapon up not me.

At this point its pretty obvious you aren't particularly interested in making these rules accessible for anyone else. Or really even suggestions or issues so i don't think i'll be posting much more on this thread.

NeonWraith
01-09-2007, 17:04
Um...

Actually, genestealers don't convert people in the sense you mean. They do take prisoners, and they do infect them, but once they've done that the newly infected people are sent back to wherever they came from to start a new cult, thus spreading the influence of the cult and boosting its psychic signal.

azimaith
01-09-2007, 19:07
Hard to guarantee? On a piece that is described as the ganger. So i assume starts at 20xp, which means its twice as likely to get the next 4 advances as a heavy is yet you keep assuming you'll get marksman.

There is no way in hell im starting off a Hybrid with 20xp. Not with that statline. Hes going to start with totem warrior xp, I just have not figured out exactly how much for each one.



Which i might add is in a skill table that is otherwise almost completely useless for heavies. Yeah. Also, its very rare (in my experience) to actually see someone use the 300 cred autocannon. So please stop using a heavy with marksman and an autocannon as why your patriarch isn't overpowered. It's a stupidly limited scenario that actually goes a lot further as to proving why it is overpowered. If thats all you can think of that can act as a good deterrent maybe you need to try and take a step back.

Theres alot of things that can do the same thing, plasma weapons, heavy stubbers, meltaguns.



You keep saying that. If that is the case its not all that hard to keep someone out of sight.

If hes out of LOS then not much is going to be impacted the enemy in close combat which is where the gang excels.



No, but it makes more sense and makes the rules more useful to other people.

Makes more sense to who exactly? I need a very specific progenitor type gang to make the narrative make sense.



Thats nice. I'm also sure its not going to be as easy as all that.

By the time the gang would be introduced I don't think it would be a problem.



They only need to move slowly until they close to the range of the enemy. Of course you're not going to run them ahead needlessly making a tiny bit of extra use from their movement only to get them shot.

Right in which case they end up being essentially like normal running guys which gives you alot more time to shoot at them.



And i dislike the unoriginality of it. It already exists for Redemptionists and genestealer progression is really not supposed to happen that fast.

Its not unoriginal its what happens in a cult. The only thing thats been sped up in generational births for hybrids.



The patriarch moves with, and protects your fire base of cultists. They get an extra 6" at which to use his Ld, which is 10. He protects them, killing anything that gets close to his 10" charge range. The genestealers stay back behind the meat shields unless a good cover avenue presents itself. They are flankers sneaking into hth and crushing stuff. The hybrids are toughness 4 and only cost 50 creds they can easily back up either one.

The problem is your going to have on patriarch, at maximum two genestealers and two hybrids with no guns at all so there won't be a firebase. If you wanted a firebase you'd need to lose one of your genestealers. You keep pluralizing everything.

If your keeping a firebase your also moving 6" a turn.



Yeah I don't like mordheim. The different gangs aren't particularly balanced. I've heard bad things about possessed.

Possessed focus on making one really mean possessed while the rest are kind of average or worse. Same way as vampire counts.



Yes. It is. Genestealer cults are known about and feared. The imperium is on the look out for them. There are mutants on most imperial worlds, but if there is a rumour about genestealers connected to them suddenly the inquisition gets interested.

And plague zombie are the herald of nurgle from the black crusade. The Inquisition doesn't go chasing off after every little rumor of mutation from deep in the underhive. Theres an assload of worlds on Leviathans cordon and they all have cults. And if the inquisition arrives, so what? It becomes a more interesting game with 4 parties all working toward different goals and the narrative all the more richer.



Really. An unmodified D6 save? You know, it provides better odds for dealing with injuries than a re-roll does. And you gave genestealers regeneration. Not exactly a fluffy choice.

Regeneration is supposed to indicate them simply shrugging off injuries or ignoring them. An old war wounds pain might stop a human but it won't stop a genestealer.



Their captured juve? That you automatically converted. Right.

Its either eat him or starve. I choose eat him.



Its hardly slow. Its the usual speed and you can put on bursts if needed. And the deployment zone depends on the scenario. You don't need to be moving at maximum speed every possible turn to be getting the most out of having more movement than your opponent.

The entire point is that if your not moving at or toward close combat then your not using your potential to its fullest. No one is going to be scared of a genestealer that refuses to charge.



How is it a minimum of 55 points? A cultist costs 25. He's got the same chance of dying as anyone else. Its only your income system that means it hurts and I've told you i dislike your fragile income.

A hybrid costs 50 points plus it must have at least *one* mutation, which at its cheapest is feeder tendrils at 5 points. That makes him 55 points at the cheapest. For the hybrid and its cultists you will need at least 105 points.



I don't think you'll have half a dozen. All you need is one well used one and you can really hurt your opponents gang. Besides, that 760 point gang? Buy 8 autoguns. 920 points. That means you can buy two more cultists and another autogun. Suddenly your opponent has 2 genestealers, a patriarch and 9 autoguns to deal with. Yeah, i'd be worried about that. Meat shields doesn't mean you try to get them killed, just that they make sure they are the closest target rather than your expensive pieces.

Right, and the genestealers now need to move as fast as the cultists do or they'll get gunned down while the patriarch must remain within 18" of the cultists.



You're the one that keeps bringing the weapon up not me.

At this point its pretty obvious you aren't particularly interested in making these rules accessible for anyone else. Or really even suggestions or issues so i don't think i'll be posting much more on this thread.
Im looking for suggestions that make it a better narrative gang, not on how to make it a gang everyone can use for their necromunda gang (which I would be happy to write). Its like going to a car store and asking for suggestions on getting window tinting while the guy at the store tells you to change your toyota for a ford because he doesn't like toyotas.


Um...

Actually, genestealers don't convert people in the sense you mean. They do take prisoners, and they do infect them, but once they've done that the newly infected people are sent back to wherever they came from to start a new cult, thus spreading the influence of the cult and boosting its psychic signal.
Actually the cult starts (as this is a progenitor cult) with the cultists staying with the genestealers that converted them. They bring people in to them. The cult itself forms around the patriarch which would be impossible if they just left as soon as they were infected. A well embedded genestealer cult will certainly spread its tendrils wide but at its core will be cultists, hybrids, purestrains and their patriarch.

azimaith
01-09-2007, 19:58
Genestealer Cult (Player Variant)

On many Imperial worlds deep within catacombs or underhives lurk the vanguard of the Tyranid fleet. The Genestealer. Around him his cult, lead by a bloated Patriarch. Though the nature of the genestealer threat remains undetected on most Imperial worlds until too late, sometimes cults fight for territory or new recruits with other gangs in the depths of the hive.

Outlaws:
Genestealer cults do not automatically start as outlaws. They must be reported as any other gang, but have a "Mostly Outlawed" status. Any genestealer cult with any hybrids has a -2 modifier to their roll for Outlawed status. If they utilize a purestrain they lose an additional -3(But only for the game they use the purestrain!) If you use a purestrain or a hybrid against an Enforcers warband you become automatically outlawed when reported.

Overall genestealer cults operate as normal Imperial citizens once they are well established trying to stay out of the spotlight until the hive fleet descends at which point they rush forth to cause chaos and confusion amongst the planetary defenders.

As such they do not suffer any special penalties until reported.

Conversion:
Genestealer cults do their best to subvert local populace's by infecting them with a Tyrannic implant which overwrites their DNA. Genestealer cults do not hold territory as other gangs do, instead they can attempt kidnappings to convert others to their cause.

When generating territories, instead of using the standard Necromunda chart, utilize the genestealer conversion chart. You get 2 rolls on the kidnapping chart to start with no chance of detection. When generating income from your victims as a cult you do not need to dedicate a model to gather income but you must organize a kidnapping attempt. For some its a simple snatch off a street corner, for others its nearly impossible. Furthermore every victim has a chance of being detected and killed, whether by the Redemptionist in the underhive to the arbites in higher quarters.

To accomplish a kidnapping roll 2d6 and try to get under the listed score. After each kidnapping attempt there is a chance of detection which increases for each member that takes part in it. A roll of a 12 always fails.
If you roll over the number the Kidnapping is considered "Botched" consult the "Botched Kidnapping" chart below adding any modifiers.

You may always choose *not* to attempt a kidnapping.


When rolling for detection roll two D6's and add the result together, subtracting the same amount from your dice rolls as you did for the kidnapping attempt. If you score under the discovery roll your victim is discovered and is removed after a single game. (Though you still get one games worth of income). If you are detected and the difference between the detection roll and the kidnapping roll is an unmodified 4 (thats your base roll with no subtractions) then you must also roll on the botch table and you must add the botch modifier).

Finally after every game roll a D6 for each victim the gang has. On a one that infected victim has died, either caught by another gang, killed by the Redemption, arbites, or worse.

In the case of a raid the attempt is against the cults local hub. This is particularly difficult raid mission for the attacker and what he might encounter there is listed later.

2-6: Underhiver 2d6 credits. Standard procedure for this sort of kidnapping is grabbing a poor sod off a street corner. As such it is a very easy to accomplish. On an 8 or less the kidnapping was successful. For every extra gang member you add to this you may subtract 2 to your roll.

Detection Check: 3

Botch Modifier:-1

7-8: Hiver:2D6+6 credits. Standard procedure for grabbing a hiver is somewhat more cautious than that of an underhiver. They often have people who will wonder where they've gone and those peoples words carry more weight with local authorities, be it gang or otherwise. The kidnapping roll is 6 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Score:4

Botch Modifier:0

9-10: Middle Hiver 3D6+6 credits. Kidnapping a middle hiver represents considerable risk to the cult as they often live in areas patrolled regularly by arbites. The kidnapping roll is 5 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Score: 5

Botch Modifier: +1

11: Minor Lower Hive Noble: 4D6+6. Kidnapping a minor noble is extraordinarily difficult. The job must be done so fast and so cleanly its rarely is successful. Still, the rewards are quite good. The Kidnapping roll is 4 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Roll: 6

Botch Modifier:+2

12: Local Leader:4d6+6: Local leaders may not have the credits of a noble but most carry a more useful currency, influence. Kidnapping a local hive leader is very difficult however as other constantly look to them for guidance. If a local leader is kidnapped successfully you may add 2 to all detection rolls made until the Local Leader is killed.
The kidnapping roll is 3 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Roll: 7

Botch Modifier: +3

Botch Chart:
1-2: "Those Crazy Kids!" Your attempted kidnapping has been ignored as a stunt pulled by juves attempting to prove themselves. No further effect.
3-4: Rumors: Your kidnapping didn't make very big news, but there are rumors that there are kidnappers about. Add +1 to your next kidnapping roll. This lasts until you kidnap someone again or a game passes.
5: "Something Fishy" You count as being automatically reported to the Arbites and must roll for being outlawed.
6+: "Exposed!" Your gang is exposed as a tendril of a genestealer cult! You are automatically outlawed. Gangs that fight against you in the future count as "deputized". Roll for each victim feeding you money to see if they are discovered. The automatic deputization of enemy gangs lasts for 3 games or until you capture a local leader.

Despite not being a "House" list in the conventional sense, they still use the income charts. Being horrible subversive alien hybrids doesn't mean you don't need to eat!

The Cult List
Unlike most gang lists, the Genestealer cult list isn't run by a single leader but arranged in a heirarchy based on their generational status. Genestealer cults begin looking like any other gang, but as time passes they grow more and more monstrous. As this is a tendril of a well established cult, they may buy second generation breeders to try and jump start this. As the growth of a hybrid takes too long to be expressed in game terms the breeders may be considered to "trade in" newly born hybrids to the cults main cells where they can be raised for already grown hybrids to help them survive.

First Generation: The initial infected of the Genestealer cult, they are fanatically devoted to their cult. However, without guidance from latent psychics like a hybrids they quickly fall apart.

M:4 WS:2 BS:2 S:3 T:3 A:1 W:1 I:3 Ld:6
A First Generation must test on its leadership for stupidity if it is out of the range of the synaptic chain. The Synaptic chain is detailed later.

A cult may have as many First Generations as they wish. After the initial gang building you may not buy more until you breed.

A First Generation can use pistols, and basic weapons. They have access to the stealth and shooting skills.
30 Credits.

Second Generation: The children of the first generation, the second generation cultist is somewhat more feral and powerful, sometimes even expressing mutations later in life. These form the base line soldiers of the cult as they are more capable of operating independently.

M:4 WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 A:1 W:1 I:3 LD:7
A second generation must make a leadership test for stupidity if it is out of the range of the synaptic chain. The synaptic chain is detailed later.

A second generation can use pistols and basic weapons. They have access to the stealth and shooting skills and ferocity. They may mutate if their chart is rolled.

You may have as many Second Generations as you have First Generations. After the initial gang building you may not buy more until you breed.

A second generation costs 35 points.

Third Generation: Hybrids.
M:5 WS:4 BS:2 S:4 T:3 A:2 W:1 I:4 LD:8
The third generation hybrids are often the first signs of the taint of a genestealer cult. Horribly mutated and feral, hybrids are the cults elite shock troops. They also have a slight latent telepathy by which they can give orders to the rest of the cult.

If a third generation is not in a synaptic chain it must test for stupidity.

A third generation can use pistols and basic weapons.

A third generation always has a close combat weapon for each of its hands. Its two basic arms are included above but it may have more.

A third generation must be given a mutation and may be given up to 2, but no mutation can be repeated.

A hybrid has access to the Stealth, Ferocity, and Muscle Skills.

A hybrid costs 120 credits base and may not be purchased at the start of a gang. Details on obtaining a hybrid are later.

You may have one hybrid for every 4 second generations you have.

Generation Four: Purestrains:
M6: WS:6 BS:- S:4 T:4 A:4 W:2 I:6 LD:10 Sv: 5+
Purestrain genestealers are the stuff of nightmares for any veteran of the Tyrannic wars. Lightning fast and absolutely lethal in combat a purestrain can tear a man apart in mere moments. Luckily purestrains tend to skulk in the deepest depths of the underhive far from prying eyes while the cult presents a more human face. There are some occassions where a purestrain will join a cult band if the need is dire.

A purestrain may not use any weapons. It IS a weapon.

A purestrain has brood telepathy, detailed below.

A Purestrain's intelligence may not be used for Bottle Tests. Its leadership score is derived from its animal ferocity, not its capability to lead.

A purestrain causes Fear.

A purestrain is immune to psychology.

A purestrain may be given any single biomorph before the game it is to be used on.

A purestrain does not gain experience, nor does it remain in the gang after its mission. Do not roll for injury for purestrains. A wound caused on a purestrain is with 2D6 experience rather than 1D6 if dealt in close combat.

Purestrains begin with the skills:Catfall and Infiltrate. A purestrain causes a critical hit on a single roll of a 6, not two.

You may never buy a purestrain, they only appear when the cult is in dire need. The rules for getting a purestrain for a battle are below.

Advancing Generations
A genestealer cult has graduated generations where the cult becomes less and less human. These generations occur too slowly to be depicted in a standard necromunda gang but as part of an established cult, particularly successful tendrils will be given members from other older cells.
As such the cult advances through generations. At the start of a gang you have access to both First and Second Generation members but no others. A cult would not risk itself in its first generation. You have the standard one thousand credits to spend on outfitting your initial gang.
After the first game a Genestealer cult may attempt breeding to produce third generations or second generations. Roll a D6 for each breeding couple (Obviously you will need 2 first generations or 2 second generations or some combination there of to breed them.) and consult the chart below:
First Generation to First Generation:
1-4: The breeding results in a normal human child who will be converted to a First Generation. You can now recruit another first generation.
4+: The breeding is a success resulting in a second generation child who will be raised in another cell of the cult. Your gang can now recruit another second generation. (But you must pay for it as normal).

First Generation to Second Generation:
1-2: The breeding results in a normal human child who will be converted to a First Generation. You can now recruit another first generation.
3-5: The Breeding results in a second generation. You may now recruit another second generation.
6: Generational Leap! The breeding results in a Third generation. You may now recruit a hybrid.

Second Generation to Second Generation:
1: 1-2: The breeding results in a normal human child who will be converted to a First Generation. You can now recruit another first generation.
2-4: The Breeding results in a second generation. You may now recruit another second generation.
5-6:The breeding results in a Third generation. You may now recruit a hybrid.

While third generations can breed they may only breed with other third generations. They are too genetically different from second and first generations.
Third Generation to Third Generation:
1-4: Third Generation born, you may now recruit a hybrid.
5-6: Purestrain! A purestrain genestealer is born and is quickly spirited away. You may now recruit another hybrid or request 2D6x10 credits from the prime cults treasury to fund your successful breeding program.

Conversion
The ability of a genestealer cult to subvert people to their cause is of their most feared abilities. Any gang member who is captured by a genestealer cult is implanted. After this they are released (No ransom, all equipment, they want it inconspicuous). Treat it as a 66 on the serious injury chart as the disoriented ganger has to find his way back to his gang. The genestealer cult may now count all implanted gangers from any gang as a first generation for breeding purposes. (Its assumed they can sneak out). Furthermore if a member of the genestealer cult is taken out by an implanted ganger and they roll a "Killed" for the serious injury re-roll it. The implanted gangers would have had to fight against the idea of killing its kindred which would be difficult but not impossible (as its a new implant). If a member of the genestealer cult is captured by a gang containing an implanted ganger he counts as automatically having a "hidden blade" representing the gangers unconscious help. There is no further effect.

Obtaining Purestrains
Purestrains are a valued commodity of any genestealer cult. They are not deployed lightly. If a genestealer cult has at least 2 hybrids (if it doesn't its too small to care about) and its facing a gang with 2x its gang rating and it has spent at least a thousand credits it may use one genestealer. If its facing a gang with 3x its rating it may use 2, and so on and forth. All purestrains get a single biomorph as well. You may choose one.

Remember sense is needed here. The goal of a Genestealer cult isn't to minimize your total experience to get genestealers, its to play a different kind of gang.


Hybrid Mutations, Second Generation Mutations, and Genestealer Bio-Morphs.
Second Generation Mutations:
1: Tough Hide: The Second generations hide has become tough and chitinous. It has a 5+ basic save.
2: Clawed: The second generations hands have become clawlike, it always counts as having a close combat weapon for each hand, even when weilding a two handed weapon.
3: Agile: A little of the genestealers legendary speed exists in this second generation. It gains +1 movement.
4: Misshapen: This second generation in hunched in the fashion of a stalking genestealer and his body shows signs of alien taint. He causes Fear.
5: Olafactory Nodes: This Second generation has a keen sense of smell. It can detect hidden models within double its initiative range.
6: Hive Node: This second generation has a stronger brood telepathy and thus can double his range for the synaptic chain.

Hybrid Mutations
1: Extra Arm: The hybrid can carry an extra weapon and gains an extra attack. 20 Credits.
2: Chitinous Body: The hybrid has grown platelike growths over its body giving it a 5+ basic save. 10 Credits
3: Rending Claws: This hybrids claws have fused together forming large incredibly strong digits. He adds +1 to his weapon base weapon skill.*. 20 Credits
4: Horrifying: This genestealer hybrid has a visage similar to that of a genestealer and thus causes fear. 15 Credits
5: Hardened Body: This genestealer hybrid has had its body hardened and its bones thickened. Its toughness increases by one.* 30 Credits
6: Ferocity: This hybrid has overactive adrenals, it can not shoot any weapons and must charge if able. It no longer fumbles in combat and is immune to psychology. 35 points.
Extra statistics gained from mutations count as if they had been rolled for. Thus if a Hybrid took the Hardened body mutation he would only be able to gain one more point of toughness to his racial max of 5. Same with Rending Claws.

Biomorphs:
1: Toxin Sacs: Add +1 strength to the genestealer.
2: Flesh Hooks: The genestealer may fire them hitting on a 4+ with a range of 6". If they hit they target makes a strength check, if he fails he gets pulled 6" toward the genestealer. This may drop him off a ledge!
3: Feeder Tendrils: This Genestealer has complex sensory tendrils surrounding its mouth. As such they may automatically detect hidden models at double their initiative range.
4: Extended Carapace: This genestealer has large chitinous plates that are thicker than normal. It has a 4+ save.
5: Scything Talons: This Genestealers foreclaws are large talons rather than hands. It gains another attack.
6: Adrenal Glands: This genestealer has large adrenals which pump it full of aggressive hormones. It may frenzy one turn of the game.

The Synaptic Chain
Genestealer cults remain intact by virture of an innate shared telepathy between its members. Without this they are without direction and unmotivated. But together, they form a near unbreakable bond.

To represent this all members of a genestealer cult exude an aura of telepathy referred to as the Synaptic Chain. Each models synaptic chain is equal to half his leadership characteristic in inches rounding up. For each member of the gang within that area each member adds +1 to their leadership and may test using the highest leadership in that particular chain.

Brood Telepathy
A Purestrains brood telepathy is so strong is can cause a synaptic chain aura equal to its leadership value in inches. It also allows him to operate independently.

Experience and Advancement
First Generation: 0 experience.
Second Generation: 20+D6 experience.
Hybrids: 60+D6 Experience.

Second Generations advance identically to normal gangers except that a roll of 2 or 12 on the advancement chart results in a new mutation. After a single mutation 2 or 12's count as skills instead.

Hybrids already have mutations and do not gain more thus advance as normal.

Maximum Stats:
First Generation:
M:4 WS:6 BS:6 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:6 A:3 Ld:8

Second Generation:
M:5 WS:7 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:6 A:4 Ld:9

Third Generation:
M:5 WS:8 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:6 A:5 Ld:10

Weapons
Pistols:
Autopistol: 15
Laspistol: 20
Stubgun: 10

Ranged Weapons:
Lasgun:25
Autogun:20
Shotgun: 20

Close Combat Weapons:
Knife: Free/5
Club: 10

Tomothy
02-09-2007, 02:30
Genestealer Cult (Player Variant)
Outlaws:
Genestealer cults do not automatically start as outlaws. They must be reported as any other gang, but have a "Mostly Outlawed" status. Any genestealer cult with any hybrids or purestrains is automatically outlawed as soon as it is reported. A genestealer cult can never become deputized as Enforcers are regularly screened for mutation and heresy.
This is way too harsh. I think there should be a -2 modifier if you only use hybrids, an additional -3 if you use purestrain and if you use purestrains or hybrids against arbites you automatically get outlawed.


Conversion:
Genestealer cults do their best to subvert local populace's by infecting them with a Tyrannic implant which overwrites their DNA. Genestealer cults do not hold territory as other gangs do, instead they can attempt kidnappings to convert others to their cause.
How does it work when they capture or lose territory? Are the kidnapping thingies permanent? I think also as they count as house gang that it should be explicitly stated that they use the income table. I think if they lose territory the opponent should get a settlement, if they win the opponent loses a territory and you get a new kidnapping thing.


When generating territories, instead of using the standard Necromunda chart, utilize the genestealer conversion chart. You get 2 rolls on the kidnapping chart to start with no chance of detection. When generating income from your victims as a cult you do not need to dedicate a model to gather income but you must organize a kidnapping attempt. For some its a simple snatch off a street corner, for others its nearly impossible. Furthermore every victim has a chance of being detected and killed, whether by the Redemptionist in the underhive to the arbites in higher quarters.
So they only get two "territories" compared to another house gang's 5? They need to generate the same money that 5 territories would, which makes it awkward when they get new ones, i'd give them 5. It doesn't sound like they're permanent either, i think they should be. You should have to assign a couple of guys to start with as well. They're going to have quite a lot of cultists.


To accomplish a kidnapping roll 2d6 and try to get under the listed score. After each kidnapping attempt there is a chance of detection which increases for each member that takes part in it. A roll of a 12 always fails.
If you roll over the number the Kidnapping is considered "Botched" consult the "Botched Kidnapping" chart below adding any modifiers.

You may always choose *not* to attempt a kidnapping.


When rolling for detection roll two D6's and add the result together, subtracting the same amount from your dice rolls as you did for the kidnapping attempt. If you score under the discovery roll your victim is discovered and is removed after a single game. (Though you still get one games worth of income). If you are detected and the difference between the detection roll and the kidnapping roll is an unmodified 4 (thats your base roll with no subtractions) then you must also roll on the botch table and you must add the botch modifier).

Finally after every game roll a D6 for each victim the gang has. On a one that infected victim has died, either caught by another gang, killed by the Redemption, arbites, or worse.

In the case of a raid the attempt is against the cults local hub. This is particularly difficult raid mission for the attacker and what he might encounter there is listed later.

2-6: Underhiver 2d6 credits. Standard procedure for this sort of kidnapping is grabbing a poor sod off a street corner. As such it is a very easy to accomplish. On an 8 or less the kidnapping was successful. For every extra gang member you add to this you may subtract 2 to your roll.

Detection Check: 3

Botch Modifier:-1

7-8: Hiver:2D6+6 credits. Standard procedure for grabbing a hiver is somewhat more cautious than that of an underhiver. They often have people who will wonder where they've gone and those peoples words carry more weight with local authorities, be it gang or otherwise. The kidnapping roll is 6 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Score:4

Botch Modifier:0

9-10: Middle Hiver 3D6+6 credits. Kidnapping a middle hiver represents considerable risk to the cult as they often live in areas patrolled regularly by arbites. The kidnapping roll is 5 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Score: 5

Botch Modifier: +1

11: Minor Lower Hive Noble: 4D6+6. Kidnapping a minor noble is extraordinarily difficult. The job must be done so fast and so cleanly its rarely is successful. Still, the rewards are quite good. The Kidnapping roll is 4 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Roll: 6

Botch Modifier:+2

12: Local Leader:4d6+6: Local leaders may not have the credits of a noble but most carry a more useful currency, influence. Kidnapping a local hive leader is very difficult however as other constantly look to them for guidance. If a local leader is kidnapped successfully you may add 2 to all detection rolls made until the Local Leader is killed.
The kidnapping roll is 3 and for each additional gang member participating you may subtract 2 from your score.

Detection Roll: 7

Botch Modifier: +3

Botch Chart:
1-2: "Those Crazy Kids!" Your attempted kidnapping has been ignored as a stunt pulled by juves attempting to prove themselves. No further effect.
3-4: Rumors: Your kidnapping didn't make very big news, but there are rumors that there are kidnappers about. Add +1 to your next kidnapping roll. This lasts until you kidnap someone again or a game passes.
5: "Something Fishy" You count as being automatically reported to the Arbites and must roll for being outlawed.
6+: "Exposed!" Your gang is exposed as a tendril of a genestealer cult! You are automatically outlawed. Gangs that fight against you in the future count as "deputized". Roll for each victim feeding you money to see if they are discovered. The automatic deputization of enemy gangs lasts for 3 games or until you capture a local leader.
This is a very interesting system, but i'm having a little trouble fully grasping it. How does it work from game to game. I think if we could come up with an extended chart, so you get a few more options with special rules, use their favourite D66. So you could have one that gave a sort of vents/tunnels rule or other neat little things.
Then when you first "work" your "territory" you have to make a kidnap roll, then detection roll. After that it's just a detection roll each time. The places are permanent unless they fail the detection roll.


The Cult List
Unlike most gang lists, the Genestealer cult list isn't run by a single leader but arranged in a heirarchy based on their generational status. Genestealer cults begin looking like any other gang, but as time passes they grow more and more monstrous. As this is a tendril of a well established cult, they may buy second generation breeders to try and jump start this. As the growth of a hybrid takes too long to be expressed in game terms the breeders may be considered to "trade in" newly born hybrids to the cults main cells where they can be raised for already grown hybrids to help them survive.


I really like all of the recruitment and breeding rules. Honestly it's the best mixture of rules and fluff to make a gang playable and fit the cult. I think when you're satisfied with the end product you should submit it to SG and try and get it published.


Conversion
The ability of a genestealer cult to subvert people to their cause is of their most feared abilities. Any gang member who is captured by a genestealer cult is implanted. After this they are released (No ransom, all equipment, they want it inconspicuous). Treat it as a 66 on the serious injury chart as the disoriented ganger has to find his way back to his gang. The genestealer cult may now count all implanted gangers from any gang as a first generation for breeding purposes. (Its assumed they can sneak out). Furthermore if a member of the genestealer cult is taken out by an implanted ganger and they roll a "Killed" for the serious injury re-roll it. The implanted gangers would have had to fight against the idea of killing its kindred which would be difficult but not impossible (as its a new implant). If a member of the genestealer cult is captured by a gang containing an implanted ganger he counts as automatically having a "hidden blade" representing the gangers unconscious help. There is no further effect.
I would make each implanted ganger from any gang count as a first generation couple for breeding purposes. I would also let your first generation recruits bred in this way to pick their house skills list instead of the genestealer one (that includes the new table they get when they reach ganger status).


Obtaining Purestrains
Purestrains are a valued commodity of any genestealer cult. They are not deployed lightly. If a genestealer cult has at least 2 hybrids (if it doesn't its too small to care about) and its facing a gang with 2x its gang rating and it has spent at least a thousand credits it may use one genestealer. If its facing a gang with 3x its rating it may use 2, and so on and forth. All purestrains get a single biomorph as well. You may choose one.
Great rules, just one thing. What do you mean by "and it has spent at least a thousand credits"?


Hybrid Mutations
1: Extra Arm: The hybrid can carry an extra weapon and gains an extra attack. 20 Credits.
2: Chitinous Body: The hybrid has grown platelike growths over its body giving it a 5+ basic save. 10 Credits
3: Rending Claws: This hybrids claws have fused together forming large incredibly strong digits. He criticals on a single roll of a 6. 20 Credits
4: Horrifying: This genestealer hybrid has a visage similar to that of a genestealer and thus causes fear. 15 Credits
5: Hardened Body: This genestealer hybrid has had its body hardened and its bones thickened. Its toughness increases by one. 20 Credits
6: Ferocity: This hybrid has overactive adrenals, it can not shoot any weapons and must charge if able. It no longer fumbles in combat and is immune to psychology. 35 points.
The chitinous body costs a lot less than the scavvy armour mutation, is this intentional? Also rending doesn't strike me as...great. Couple of options i can think of: Increase critical strike range by 1 (ie if they roll a 5 or 6, each additional 5 or 6 adds one to their combat score), or when using bare hands they cause D3 damage, or they cannot be parried due to their increased strength etc. Is hardened body included in the maximum toughness or is it meant to go over and beyond that? Also i would probably increase its cost to 25-30, toughness is awesome.


The Synaptic Chain
etc
This is a very cool little rule and i love it.

All the experience and weapon tables are fine. I assume there are no restrictions on buying non-"house" weapons. So they can give up a rare trade like other gangs to get specials if they get techno.

I think you need some sort of leader character, don't they get neophytes to lead subsections of the cult? Some sort of psychic cultist that has powers like ratskin shaman? Otherwise they don't get rare trades and as they appear normal at this level there really should be nothing stopping them.

Also, in the territory section you said you were going to address what happened in a raid later but never did.

Overall its a very interesting list.

Tomothy
02-09-2007, 03:41
I think you should repost your genestealer cult list for players in a new thread so as not to derail the purpose of this thread. Which i will now try to help you with instead of being a pain in the @#$%.


There is no way in hell im starting off a Hybrid with 20xp. Not with that statline. Hes going to start with totem warrior xp, I just have not figured out exactly how much for each one.
Okay, thats good. If it's 40xp he's still more likely to get his first two advances than a heavy is to get theirs.


The problem is your going to have on patriarch, at maximum two genestealers and two hybrids with no guns at all so there won't be a firebase. If you wanted a firebase you'd need to lose one of your genestealers. You keep pluralizing everything.
I used your stats. 1 patriarch, 2 genestealers and 8 cultists. You had enough money left over to buy all those cultists autoguns, and get an extra one. That is what i call i firebase. But now we're arguing about tactics which is really irrelevant. I'm pretty sure i could use those guys to good effect, even against a gang rating quite a bit higher than mine.


And plague zombie are the herald of nurgle from the black crusade. The Inquisition doesn't go chasing off after every little rumor of mutation from deep in the underhive. Theres an assload of worlds on Leviathans cordon and they all have cults. And if the inquisition arrives, so what? It becomes a more interesting game with 4 parties all working toward different goals and the narrative all the more richer.
Plague zombies have no fluff link to nurgle anywhere in necromunda.


Im looking for suggestions that make it a better narrative gang, not on how to make it a gang everyone can use for their necromunda gang (which I would be happy to write). Its like going to a car store and asking for suggestions on getting window tinting while the guy at the store tells you to change your toyota for a ford because he doesn't like toyotas.
Granted. So lets try to be helpful.

I think you need to let your cultists scavenge, money is otherwise going to be a real problem for you and definitely limit expansion, which i think you want. If you do that make it so you can't eat hybrids, only cultists and captured, and increase the cultist cost to at least 30 creds.

Rending doesn't really work, the way its worded is wierd and its not very good. Swap it out for Advanced Reflexes (a fighter with this skill is immune to pinning).

Add rules for a (non-mutated) cultist going to the outlaw trading post instead of your leader. Include rules for him getting captured and killed.

You need to include rules for what happens if you would win or lose a territory.

azimaith
02-09-2007, 12:37
This is way too harsh. I think there should be a -2 modifier if you only use hybrids, an additional -3 if you use purestrain and if you use purestrains or hybrids against arbites you automatically get outlawed.

That makes sense I suppose. The outlaw rules really hurt.



How does it work when they capture or lose territory? Are the kidnapping thingies permanent? I think also as they count as house gang that it should be explicitly stated that they use the income table. I think if they lose territory the opponent should get a settlement, if they win the opponent loses a territory and you get a new kidnapping thing.

Well kidnapping is permenant unles they get discovered and killed. The way i'd figure is that you'd generate a new territory for a gang that takes on of theirs (as per enforcers where capturing territory represents moving closer than you would have dared before.) A new kidnap would be a good match up for them working against one another.

Good catch on the income tables, theres all sorts of information holes that need to be plugged still.



So they only get two "territories" compared to another house gang's 5? They need to generate the same money that 5 territories would, which makes it awkward when they get new ones, i'd give them 5. It doesn't sound like they're permanent either, i think they should be. You should have to assign a couple of guys to start with as well. They're going to have quite a lot of cultists.

My biggest issue of 5 kidnaps without detection is it makes it very easy to nick a local leader (or two!) which would make kidnapping a cakewalk for a long time to come. They come and go as they get discovered essentially.

I thought about making loss of territory result in losses of cult extensions (the kidnapped people) but I just couldn't imagine gangers getting the nerve to raid a nobles home outside the underhive.

Since they run no risk of detection for the first two kidnaps you can basically assure you make it by sending 5 guys (giving you a -10 modifer for a 2d6 test) making it near impossible not to start with 2 territories. I'd make them untouchable but some of them generate so much money (and they all generate money each game) it would make the cult really rich, really fast.

The biggest issue of course is that the gang is going to be huge to start off with since it doesn't have any real huge point sinks.(55 point lasgun guys? I'll take a bunch of those thank you very much!) but at the same time certain "territories" are alot more profitable for the cult that others. I think your right, the problem with 5 initial kidnaps spawns from a lack of things to find/grab screaming out of their bed.



This is a very interesting system, but i'm having a little trouble fully grasping it. How does it work from game to game. I think if we could come up with an extended chart, so you get a few more options with special rules, use their favourite D66. So you could have one that gave a sort of vents/tunnels rule or other neat little things.
Then when you first "work" your "territory" you have to make a kidnap roll, then detection roll. After that it's just a detection roll each time. The places are permanent unless they fail the detection roll.

Well its not really balanced yet but the way it works is:

After every game you may make a kidnapping attempt to expand the cult. First you roll to see who you can kidnap. Then you decide how many people you want to send to perform it. Each additional person gives you a -2 bonus to your kidnapping roll but gives an identical bonus to the detection roll (its easier to catch 10 guys grabbing one guy then 2 guys).

Each kidnapping has a set difficulty which must be rolled under on a 2d6. If you roll under the set number on a 2D6 the kidnapping is physically successful (you grabbed your target). Then you roll to see if the attempt was detected before he was returned. The more important the victim the more likely it is. If you roll under the difficulty for the detection you are detected and that kidnapping victim generates one games money and then is gone. Its assumed they got killed, driven out of an economically capable situation, had botched surgery on the implant/whatever. If the detection roll is especially high compared to the kidnapping roll it is also considered botched. Not only do they know hes been kidnapped, they have an idea who did it. How far they dig is dependent on the importance of the victim. While a plain old hive laborer would likely be totally ignored, a noble may warrant serious investigation which could reveal the cult.



I really like all of the recruitment and breeding rules. Honestly it's the best mixture of rules and fluff to make a gang playable and fit the cult. I think when you're satisfied with the end product you should submit it to SG and try and get it published.

When I wrote the recruitment and breeding rules I figured I needed a way to slow cult advancement and make it like a snowball. Its starts out very human like very inconspicuous. But as it grows its monstrous nature starts becoming evident.



I would make each implanted ganger from any gang count as a first generation couple for breeding purposes. I would also let your first generation recruits bred in this way to pick their house skills list instead of the genestealer one (that includes the new table they get when they reach ganger status).

That would be a neat way to add some uniqueness. I like the idea of getting house skills dependent on the infected model. As for a couple, i'm not sure what your getting at. I figured you'd need an infected guy and an infected gal to make a hybridized baby.



Great rules, just one thing. What do you mean by "and it has spent at least a thousand credits"?

After I wrote this I realized a glaring loop hole. What happens if they simply avoid buying models to artificially lower their gang rating. Sure they would suffer through the first few games, but then they could suddenly have genestealers much sooner than they're supposed to have them. With a thousand credit limit it means you can't just throw in a 5 guys, lose a couple games, and then come in with total genestealer pwnage because now your gang rating is lower. Purestrains are supposed to be a "Oh thats cool" balancing factor when your fighting incredible odds rather than to be something you want to manipulate the rules to get at.



The chitinous body costs a lot less than the scavvy armour mutation, is this intentional?

I looked at the scavvy's armor save one and to be honest, I just don't see armor saves as being that good in necromunda. Even a lasgun has a -1 modifier and a 6+ save isn't something you can *really* count on. I can't see taking a 5+ save over an extra arm if they were the same cost.



Also rending doesn't strike me as...great. Couple of options i can think of:
Increase critical strike range by 1 (ie if they roll a 5 or 6, each additional 5 or 6 adds one to their combat score), or when using bare hands they cause D3 damage, or they cannot be parried due to their increased strength etc.

Hmm the bare hands one is a very rendy style suggestion but I think the increased critical range would provide a more consistent benefit. After all, D3 wounds or an extra attack can both accomplish the same goal of taking off multiple wounds.



Is hardened body included in the maximum toughness or is it meant to go over and beyond that? Also i would probably increase its cost to 25-30, toughness is awesome.

The hardened body is counted as maximum toughness. I must have forgotten to write it down but its not supposed to be a bonus thats not counted for max stats.

When I first wrote hardened body the first thing I thought was 25 to 30 points, but then I looked at the toughness 3 base of hybrids and now i'm not sure. Is a boost for T3 to 4 worth 25 points and your only mutation slot? I'd need opinions on that I guess.



This is a very cool little rule and i love it.

I wanted to include the brood mind for the cult but I wanted it in a more practical way. Pairings between brood brothers and sisters to alter leadership seemed like a solid way to do it.



All the experience and weapon tables are fine. I assume there are no restrictions on buying non-"house" weapons. So they can give up a rare trade like other gangs to get specials if they get techno.

Right, they can still go through the normal routes to get non-house weapons.



I think you need some sort of leader character, don't they get neophytes to lead subsections of the cult? Some sort of psychic cultist that has powers like ratskin shaman? Otherwise they don't get rare trades and as they appear normal at this level there really should be nothing stopping them.

I thought about a leader character but I just wasn't sure on how to put him in. I dig the idea of no defined leader but a whole that feeds off one another but rare trades are rather important.



Also, in the territory section you said you were going to address what happened in a raid later but never did.

Oops, I forgot too. The territory raid is pretty much the only case you might actually see a patriarch (and thats very dependent on whats raided). I'm thinking that the number of big baddies you encounter in a territory raid would be dependent on overall opposing gang rating. It would probably include genestealers who would come in homing in on the distress call in a reserves fashion. The number would be dependent on gang rating. Im not certain on the patriarch to be honest, in most cases the patriarch won't show unless the cults life is at stake which isn't necessarily always the case for raids.



Overall its a very interesting list.
Thanks, I was trying for a graduated increase with a unique flavor.
While the narrative list is all about:" Holy hell we need to work together to get out" the player cult is supposed to be a twist on standard
gangs.


I think you should repost your genestealer cult list for players in a new thread so as not to derail the purpose of this thread. Which i will now try to help you with instead of being a pain in the @#$%.

That sounds good once I iron out the bugs.



Okay, thats good. If it's 40xp he's still more likely to get his first two advances than a heavy is to get theirs.

Totem warriors come in with 60+d6 xp so he should be around the same time.



I used your stats. 1 patriarch, 2 genestealers and 8 cultists. You had enough money left over to buy all those cultists autoguns, and get an extra one. That is what i call i firebase. But now we're arguing about tactics which is really irrelevant. I'm pretty sure i could use those guys to good effect, even against a gang rating quite a bit higher than mine.

I was thinking about graduating a different way with one genestealer for every 2 hybrids. Thus it would go 8 Cultists-2 Hybrids-1 purestrain which requires you to cut down on genestealers. To be honest purestrains should never outnumber hybrids since they are successive gnerations. I'm also thinking the cultists should run around 30-35 points.



Plague zombies have no fluff link to nurgle anywhere in necromunda.

Right its the Neurones disease (or some such name) they do on Cadia, which I figured would be general information passed on by arbites.



Granted. So lets try to be helpful.

I think you need to let your cultists scavenge, money is otherwise going to be a real problem for you and definitely limit expansion, which i think you want. If you do that make it so you can't eat hybrids, only cultists and captured, and increase the cultist cost to at least 30 creds.

I should have mentioned this before but the cult would only be in around3-4 games so I don't want really fast expansion. I want slow expansion but just enough to make it a growing threat. As for hybrids and eating them, it might be better to just make them inedible as you suggest to get around the confusion with base "So Many Mouths to Feed" rules. Besides, a hybrid would be toxic and first generations are essentially human with messed up gonads.



Rending doesn't really work, the way its worded is wierd and its not very good. Swap it out for Advanced Reflexes (a fighter with this skill is immune to pinning).

I'm not sure how rending doesn't work. It basically makes any 6 you roll a critical (thus +1) rather than double sixes. Advanced reflexes would be good too though. With a good weapon skill like they have they probably won't need the bonuses.



Add rules for a (non-mutated) cultist going to the outlaw trading post instead of your leader. Include rules for him getting captured and killed.

Thats a good idea, especially since it can lead to interesting scenarios *at* outlaw trading posts. I can't really imagine a patriarch trundling into an outlaw trading post :P.



You need to include rules for what happens if you would win or lose a territory.
Yeah, I was thinking the territory would probably be trashed and raided and then left. Not sure how I will continue with it.

Anyhow, im growing more attached to my player cult variant than the narrative variant to be honest. Anyhow, its late and i've got to go to bed. I'll have to plug the information gaps tomorrow.

Angelwing
02-09-2007, 12:57
the rules for genestealer cults in necromunda were published in the journal and gang war magazines.
Unfortunately, I can't give you the issue numbers as I sold them all about 6 months ago!

azimaith
02-09-2007, 13:24
Aw. I kept reading the rules were somewhere but they're elusive. Im curious to see what they did.

Hicks
02-09-2007, 16:03
Hi

The original rules for a genestealer cults can be found in Gang War 1 and were originaly found in Journal 23.

Hope that helps.

azimaith
02-09-2007, 23:04
Anyone know if they keep old issues scanned to the internet anywhere?

Tomothy
03-09-2007, 07:09
Well kidnapping is permenant unles they get discovered and killed. The way i'd figure is that you'd generate a new territory for a gang that takes on of theirs (as per enforcers where capturing territory represents moving closer than you would have dared before.) A new kidnap would be a good match up for them working against one another.

The biggest issue of course is that the gang is going to be huge to start off with since it doesn't have any real huge point sinks.(55 point lasgun guys? I'll take a bunch of those thank you very much!) but at the same time certain "territories" are alot more profitable for the cult that others. I think your right, the problem with 5 initial kidnaps spawns from a lack of things to find/grab screaming out of their bed.

After every game you may make a kidnapping attempt to expand the cult. First you roll to see who you can kidnap. Then you decide how many people you want to send to perform it. Each additional person gives you a -2 bonus to your kidnapping roll but gives an identical bonus to the detection roll (its easier to catch 10 guys grabbing one guy then 2 guys).

Each kidnapping has a set difficulty which must be rolled under on a 2d6. If you roll under the set number on a 2D6 the kidnapping is physically successful (you grabbed your target). Then you roll to see if the attempt was detected before he was returned. The more important the victim the more likely it is. If you roll under the difficulty for the detection you are detected and that kidnapping victim generates one games money and then is gone. Its assumed they got killed, driven out of an economically capable situation, had botched surgery on the implant/whatever. If the detection roll is especially high compared to the kidnapping roll it is also considered botched. Not only do they know hes been kidnapped, they have an idea who did it. How far they dig is dependent on the importance of the victim. While a plain old hive laborer would likely be totally ignored, a noble may warrant serious investigation which could reveal the cult.
Okay, here's my suggestion (incorporating your rules) as to how i think income should work. They get 5 initial kidnapping targets. Until the targets have been successfully kidnapped you don't get any of the bonus' nor can you hit them up for donations. The initial kidnapper rolls a D6, any extras you choose to send along add 2. The first time you kidnap them you can work them for money. If you failed and you rolled a 1 you must cross that target off your list and roll up a new target as you've attracted attention.

When you work them for money at least 1 cultist must be sent. You must avoid detection when getting money, so you roll one D6 and add 2 for each extra cultist you send along. If you beat the detection number you are safe. Otherwise you must roll on the Discovered! table.


D66 Kidnap Victim Income Special Rules.
11-15 Drifter 3D6 Kidnap: 2. Detection: 2.
Subtract 1 from the Discovered! table.
16 Hired Gun 4D6 Kidnap: 3. Detection: 2.
21-25 Spore Farmer 25 Kidnap: 3. Detection: 3.
26 Moisture Farmer 25 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 3.
You count as being one band lower on
the income table than you actually are.
If you are outlawed instead D6 gang
members are automatically fed after each
game.
31-33 Snake Trapper 3D6 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 2. Tunnels rules.
35-36 Spider Hunter 3D6 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 2. Vents rules.
41-45 Manufactory Worker 50 Kidnap: 5. Detection: 4.
46 Manufactory Boss D6x10 Kidnap: 6. Detection: 5.
You may ignore the first ammo test you are
required to take each game.
51-54 Professional 2D6x10 Kidnap: 7. Detection: 5.
55-56 Trader 2D6x10 Kidnap: 8. Detection: 6.
During each visit to the trading post you
may elect one item with a fixed cost and
a variable component cost to by D6 creds
cheaper.
61-62 Mob Lieutenant 3D6x10 Kidnap: 9. Detection: 6.
You may add or subtract 1 from the scenario
roll after it is made.
63-64 Church Official 3D6x10. Kidnap: 10. Detection: 7.
65 Enforcer 2D6x10. Kidnap: 11. Detection: 8.
You may add 1 to all your detection rolls.
66 Guilder Aide 4D6x10. Kidnap: 12. Detection: 9.

Discovered!

D6 Result
1-2 You looked a little suspicious, subtract 1 from your next detection
roll.
3-4 You looked very suspicious. You cannot visit this victim for money
after your next game and subtract 2 from your next detection roll.
5 You were reported. Make a roll on the Outlaw table as if you had
been reported to the Arbites.
6 You were discovered! You have been outlawed. For the next 3
games you play any house gangs you are against will receive all
rules and bonuses as if they had been deputised.


That would be a neat way to add some uniqueness. I like the idea of getting house skills dependent on the infected model. As for a couple, i'm not sure what your getting at. I figured you'd need an infected guy and an infected gal to make a hybridized baby.
Normally it requires two cultists for each breeding roll. Each captive, by them self, provides one breeding roll but can only ever produce first generation recruits as they're breeding with the uninfected. That's my suggestion.


After I wrote this I realized a glaring loop hole. What happens if they simply avoid buying models to artificially lower their gang rating. Sure they would suffer through the first few games, but then they could suddenly have genestealers much sooner than they're supposed to have them. With a thousand credit limit it means you can't just throw in a 5 guys, lose a couple games, and then come in with total genestealer pwnage because now your gang rating is lower. Purestrains are supposed to be a "Oh thats cool" balancing factor when your fighting incredible odds rather than to be something you want to manipulate the rules to get at.
At a gap of 1000 in order to get a genestealer i am more than willing to let my opponent not spend as much money as he wants. I don't think it'll be that cost effective. Especially if you include that their Ld can't be used for bottle tests.


I looked at the scavvy's armor save one and to be honest, I just don't see armor saves as being that good in necromunda. Even a lasgun has a -1 modifier and a 6+ save isn't something you can *really* count on. I can't see taking a 5+ save over an extra arm if they were the same cost.
Good point, it just looks strange. Ideally the scavvy one should probably drop in price to match yours.


When I first wrote hardened body the first thing I thought was 25 to 30 points, but then I looked at the toughness 3 base of hybrids and now i'm not sure. Is a boost for T3 to 4 worth 25 points and your only mutation slot? I'd need opinions on that I guess.
I think so. Jumping from a 4+ to wound to a 5+ on most weapons, or at best from a 3+ to a 4+, is a very big deal.


Right, they can still go through the normal routes to get non-house weapons.

I thought about a leader character but I just wasn't sure on how to put him in. I dig the idea of no defined leader but a whole that feeds off one another but rare trades are rather important.
If you don't like the shaman idea just put in a Cult Lieutenant. Same stats as a house leader. He doesn't have stupidity and instead of the Leadership rule he has the genestealer hive mind rule, his synapse range is equal to his leadership.


Oops, I forgot too. The territory raid is pretty much the only case you might actually see a patriarch (and thats very dependent on whats raided). I'm thinking that the number of big baddies you encounter in a territory raid would be dependent on overall opposing gang rating. It would probably include genestealers who would come in homing in on the distress call in a reserves fashion. The number would be dependent on gang rating. Im not certain on the patriarch to be honest, in most cases the patriarch won't show unless the cults life is at stake which isn't necessarily always the case for raids.
Maybe just reduce the difference in gang rating necessary for a genestealer to turn up from gaps of 1000 to gaps of 750.


I'm not sure how rending doesn't work. It basically makes any 6 you roll a critical (thus +1) rather than double sixes. Advanced reflexes would be good too though. With a good weapon skill like they have they probably won't need the bonuses.
I just meant its really not skill material. If you roll such and such a number on your attack dice then you get +1 to your combat score. It's very good at the high level version but abysmal at the low, +1 WS would work better.

Carlos
03-09-2007, 08:14
To cut a long thread short there were rules for genestealer cults in the journal way back, but they were so overpowered they will never see the light of day again.

azimaith
03-09-2007, 11:18
Okay, here's my suggestion (incorporating your rules) as to how i think income should work. They get 5 initial kidnapping targets. Until the targets have been successfully kidnapped you don't get any of the bonus' nor can you hit them up for donations. The initial kidnapper rolls a D6, any extras you choose to send along add 2. The first time you kidnap them you can work them for money. If you failed and you rolled a 1 you must cross that target off your list and roll up a new target as you've attracted attention.

Alright, so your suggestion is more like normal territories. The biggest question I have is what the drain is. What makes you lose kidnapped victims. Territories can come and go through missions after all. Does this mean that you only hit up people for money once and then roll must try to gain another victim at a later point (by winning a territory). Or do you get to gather donations at any time.



When you work them for money at least 1 cultist must be sent. You must avoid detection when getting money, so you roll one D6 and add 2 for each extra cultist you send along. If you beat the detection number you are safe. Otherwise you must roll on the Discovered! table.

So basically its roll and try to get above the detection roll for success. When I first read this I got kind of confused but now I get it.




D66 Kidnap Victim Income Special Rules.
11-15 Drifter 3D6 Kidnap: 2. Detection: 2.
Subtract 1 from the Discovered! table.
16 Hired Gun 4D6 Kidnap: 3. Detection: 2.
21-25 Spore Farmer 25 Kidnap: 3. Detection: 3.
26 Moisture Farmer 25 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 3.
You count as being one band lower on
the income table than you actually are.
If you are outlawed instead D6 gang
members are automatically fed after each
game.
31-33 Snake Trapper 3D6 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 2. Tunnels rules.
35-36 Spider Hunter 3D6 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 2. Vents rules.
41-45 Manufactory Worker 50 Kidnap: 5. Detection: 4.
46 Manufactory Boss D6x10 Kidnap: 6. Detection: 5.
You may ignore the first ammo test you are
required to take each game.
51-54 Professional 2D6x10 Kidnap: 7. Detection: 5.
55-56 Trader 2D6x10 Kidnap: 8. Detection: 6.
During each visit to the trading post you
may elect one item with a fixed cost and
a variable component cost to by D6 creds
cheaper.
61-62 Mob Lieutenant 3D6x10 Kidnap: 9. Detection: 6.
You may add or subtract 1 from the scenario
roll after it is made.
63-64 Church Official 3D6x10. Kidnap: 10. Detection: 7.
65 Enforcer 2D6x10. Kidnap: 11. Detection: 8.
You may add 1 to all your detection rolls.
66 Guilder Aide 4D6x10. Kidnap: 12. Detection: 9.

Discovered!

D6 Result
1-2 You looked a little suspicious, subtract 1 from your next detection
roll.
3-4 You looked very suspicious. You cannot visit this victim for money
after your next game and subtract 2 from your next detection roll.
5 You were reported. Make a roll on the Outlaw table as if you had
been reported to the Arbites.
6 You were discovered! You have been outlawed. For the next 3
games you play any house gangs you are against will receive all
rules and bonuses as if they had been deputised.

That D66 table is awesome.



Normally it requires two cultists for each breeding roll. Each captive, by them self, provides one breeding roll but can only ever produce first generation recruits as they're breeding with the uninfected. That's my suggestion.

Hmmmm, I thats what I thought. The only issue I have with it is theres nothing to really stop regular first generations from breeding with another human too (which would result in a weird double standard).



At a gap of 1000 in order to get a genestealer i am more than willing to let my opponent not spend as much money as he wants. I don't think it'll be that cost effective. Especially if you include that their Ld can't be used for bottle tests.

I forgot to write down the "Ferocity over Leadership" rule talking about how they are LD10 due to their animal ferocity over leadership capabilities.



Good point, it just looks strange. Ideally the scavvy one should probably drop in price to match yours.

I never got why armor in all these games was so expensive yet generally so ineffective. I assumed it was just because they wanted to keep things really low on the tech scale.



I think so. Jumping from a 4+ to wound to a 5+ on most weapons, or at best from a 3+ to a 4+, is a very big deal.
I suppose so, 16% is enough to make a big difference.



If you don't like the shaman idea just put in a Cult Lieutenant. Same stats as a house leader. He doesn't have stupidity and instead of the Leadership rule he has the genestealer hive mind rule, his synapse range is equal to his leadership.

The big thing with the magus and other like him is they generally stick to their lair unless they're just starting out. A cult lieutenant would work, I kind of like the way they're all members of a greater whole. I like the idea of one simply being a "face" for the cult rather than being considerably more powerful. For a lieutenant I would probably go:
M:4, WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 over the three 4's you'd see in a normal gang leader. The other option is simply to have a leader nominated for each game out of available models.



Maybe just reduce the difference in gang rating necessary for a genestealer to turn up from gaps of 1000 to gaps of 750.

The way I was figuring for a raid was if they're beaten by 250 points (as in the defenders are 3/4 the offense) you'd get a stealer, if they were 500 on defense to 1k you'd get 2 stealers, and if you were 250-1000 you'd have the big daddy himself ready to defend his cult from whats an overpowered force along with some a stealer (or two!)



I just meant its really not skill material. If you roll such and such a number on your attack dice then you get +1 to your combat score. It's very good at the high level version but abysmal at the low, +1 WS would work better.
[/quote]
+1 WS it is then.

Tomothy
03-09-2007, 12:13
Alright, so your suggestion is more like normal territories. The biggest question I have is what the drain is. What makes you lose kidnapped victims. Territories can come and go through missions after all. Does this mean that you only hit up people for money once and then roll must try to gain another victim at a later point (by winning a territory). Or do you get to gather donations at any time.

So basically its roll and try to get above the detection roll for success. When I first read this I got kind of confused but now I get it.

Yeah, the extra guys aren't helping you get money, but instead creating distractions. Could include some fluff to that regard. Otherwise they work exactly like territories. I made them give more money because you need to use a lot more guys to work them safely.


That D66 table is awesome.
The church official was going to be called ecclesiarch official but then i'd have had to mess around with the spacing a whole lot more. And i was lazy. I'd like to also see a Settlement Leader in there, i'm thinking only one chance of finding it, ie 51 as opposed to 51-52. He'd send you juves like the house gangs get. Or maybe a doctor, who increases the breeding chances. The other option with the trader is that all common items now count as being on your house weapon list. So you no longer have to give up rare trades.


Hmmmm, I thats what I thought. The only issue I have with it is theres nothing to really stop regular first generations from breeding with another human too (which would result in a weird double standard).
Well, my suggestion only allows first gen to be created. It still requires two first gen's mating to get second gens.


I forgot to write down the "Ferocity over Leadership" rule talking about how they are LD10 due to their animal ferocity over leadership capabilities.
Yeah, cool.


I never got why armor in all these games was so expensive yet generally so ineffective. I assumed it was just because they wanted to keep things really low on the tech scale.
It's not just armour. It's pretty much all the rare items. You're supposed to save up and buy them. It's just that it's so much more effective just to get more guys with cheap guns. Funny that.


The big thing with the magus and other like him is they generally stick to their lair unless they're just starting out. A cult lieutenant would work, I kind of like the way they're all members of a greater whole. I like the idea of one simply being a "face" for the cult rather than being considerably more powerful. For a lieutenant I would probably go:
M:4, WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 over the three 4's you'd see in a normal gang leader. The other option is simply to have a leader nominated for each game out of available models.
Leader's add something though. A little bit more character, and direction. A little bit more stability. They're something you can count on. Plus, if its just anyone can be the leader, then anyone can go to the trading post. Which isn't cool.


The way I was figuring for a raid was if they're beaten by 250 points (as in the defenders are 3/4 the offense) you'd get a stealer, if they were 500 on defense to 1k you'd get 2 stealers, and if you were 250-1000 you'd have the big daddy himself ready to defend his cult from whats an overpowered force along with some a stealer (or two!)
Thats a bit low. Especially considering raid usually restricts the number of attackers.

azimaith
03-09-2007, 12:48
Yeah, the extra guys aren't helping you get money, but instead creating distractions. Could include some fluff to that regard. Otherwise they work exactly like territories. I made them give more money because you need to use a lot more guys to work them safely.

Are you sure this can keep up with other gangs ability to regularly farm territories after each game?



The church official was going to be called ecclesiarch official but then i'd have had to mess around with the spacing a whole lot more. And i was lazy. I'd like to also see a Settlement Leader in there, i'm thinking only one chance of finding it, ie 51 as opposed to 51-52. He'd send you juves like the house gangs get. Or maybe a doctor, who increases the breeding chances. The other option with the trader is that all common items now count as being on your house weapon list. So you no longer have to give up rare trades.

Hmm, well the cults juves are essentially first generations. I do like the Trader and Doctor idea. Perhaps a "You may add or subtract 1 from any breeding roll before rolling)



Well, my suggestion only allows first gen to be created. It still requires two first gen's mating to get second gens.

Actually, now that I think about it, theres not really any reason to restrict normal cult first gens from breeding with the local populace. After all, being only able to get first gens would make it like any other gang buying juves. First generations aren't really special.



Leader's add something though. A little bit more character, and direction. A little bit more stability. They're something you can count on. Plus, if its just anyone can be the leader, then anyone can go to the trading post. Which isn't cool.

Well I figured it would be just one person per game who you choose so that only one is going to the trading post (assuming its not a hybrid or mutant second-generation).

I'm not particularly averse to the idea of a leader but how to define him and keep with the genestealer cult feel is kind of hard. Whenever I thought of a genestealer cult leader I kind of thought of those giant robed bugs in Resident Evil 4. (If you've played it they're in the castle). They walk around in robes, hiding their features but they obviously aren't normal. And then when it comes to fighting they throw off the robe and theres a horrific inhuman monstrosity under it. (Thats essentially the hybrids role of course).



Thats a bit low. Especially considering raid usually restricts the number of attackers.
Thats true, I really only want the patriarch to come out till its the point where if you lose this raid your gang is basically gone. That would allow me to make it big and nasty as it should be.

Tomothy
05-09-2007, 06:57
D66 Kidnap Victim Income Special Rules.
11-15 Drifter 3D6 Kidnap: 2. Detection: 2.
Subtract 1 from the Discovered! table.
16 Hired Gun 4D6 Kidnap: 3. Detection: 2.
21-25 Spore Farmer 25 Kidnap: 3. Detection: 3.
26 Moisture Farmer 25 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 3.
You count as being one band lower on
the income table. If you are outlawed
instead D6 gang members are
automatically fed after each game.
31-33 Snake Trapper 3D6 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 2. Tunnels rules.
35-36 Spider Hunter 3D6 Kidnap: 4. Detection: 2. Vents rules.
41-45 Manufactory Worker 50 Kidnap: 5. Detection: 4.
46 Manufactory Boss D6+2x10 Kidnap: 6. Detection: 5.
You may ignore the first ammo test you are
required to take each game.
51-54 Professional 2D6x10 Kidnap: 7. Detection: 5.
55 Doctor 2D6x10 Kidnap: 8. Detection 5.
You may add or subtract 1 from one
breeding roll after each game.
56 Trader 2D6x10 Kidnap: 8. Detection: 6.
All common items count as being on your
house weapons list.
61-62 Mob Lieutenant 3D6x10 Kidnap: 9. Detection: 6.
You may add or subtract 1 from the
scenario roll after it is made.
63-64 Church Official 3D6x10. Kidnap: 10. Detection: 7.
65 Enforcer 2D6x10. Kidnap: 11. Detection: 8.
You may add 1 to all your detection rolls.
66 Guilder Aide 4D6x10. Kidnap: 12. Detection: 9.

There, added doctor. Can't really fit settlement leader if i keep using the code thing to show it. Otherwise he's pretty easy to slot in.


Are you sure this can keep up with other gangs ability to regularly farm territories after each game?
No. But keep in mind not all the territories are going to be high detection, they're bound to get some low ones in there. Also could add the rule that they get +1 to their detection roll for each stealth skill the person getting the money has.


Actually, now that I think about it, theres not really any reason to restrict normal cult first gens from breeding with the local populace. After all, being only able to get first gens would make it like any other gang buying juves. First generations aren't really special.
Sure, but then they'd only be able to get 1st gen, not 2nd gen. Currently it doesn't count as post game action does it? Ie they can still work kidnap victims and breed. So I doubt you're ever going to need all your guys breeding.

Well I figured it would be just one person per game who you choose so that only one is going to the trading post (assuming its not a hybrid or mutant second-generation).


I'm not particularly averse to the idea of a leader but how to define him and keep with the genestealer cult feel is kind of hard. Whenever I thought of a genestealer cult leader I kind of thought of those giant robed bugs in Resident Evil 4. (If you've played it they're in the castle). They walk around in robes, hiding their features but they obviously aren't normal. And then when it comes to fighting they throw off the robe and theres a horrific inhuman monstrosity under it. (Thats essentially the hybrids role of course).
Well, its up to you. People are more used to seeing a permanent leader. They're not to fond of the mob rules for Redemptionists so far as i can tell.


Thats true, I really only want the patriarch to come out till its the point where if you lose this raid your gang is basically gone. That would allow me to make it big and nasty as it should be.
Maybe make him like the patriarch/matriarch. Available once per campaign and only if there's a huge diff in gang rating.

I think you should post this on the eastern fringe (http://easternfringe.com/forum/index.php
), in the necromunda section. You'll get a lot more feedback there, than just here. It has most of the good people from the SG site and more. Also the Underhive (http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Underhive/index.php?act=idx) has a few people there.

azimaith
05-09-2007, 12:21
There, added doctor. Can't really fit settlement leader if i keep using the code thing to show it. Otherwise he's pretty easy to slot in.

That list looks like its going to add alot of personality to the list.



No. But keep in mind not all the territories are going to be high detection, they're bound to get some low ones in there. Also could add the rule that they get +1 to their detection roll for each stealth skill the person getting the money has.

That would work, it just seems that if you didn't get a territory(kidnap) for a couple games you'd really start having money troubles.



Sure, but then they'd only be able to get 1st gen, not 2nd gen. Currently it doesn't count as post game action does it? Ie they can still work kidnap victims and breed. So I doubt you're ever going to need all your guys breeding.

Well its supposed to be a post-game action, its just one of those details I forgot to add in.



Well, its up to you. People are more used to seeing a permanent leader. They're not to fond of the mob rules for Redemptionists so far as i can tell.

I can understand that, its just hard to figure out what the leader would be. In genestealer cults they're either ridiculous (like a magus) or they're thralls. They never really look toward anyone (besides the patriarch and his psychic link) to lead them around.



Maybe make him like the patriarch/matriarch. Available once per campaign and only if there's a huge diff in gang rating.

That seems to be a good idea.



I think you should post this on the eastern fringe (http://easternfringe.com/forum/index.php
), in the necromunda section. You'll get a lot more feedback there, than just here. It has most of the good people from the SG site and more. Also the Underhive (http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Underhive/index.php?act=idx) has a few people there.
Once it gets ironed out it might go over pretty well. I am worried some people would see the word "Genestealer Cult" and just close their minds to it. We'll see I guess.

Tomothy
05-09-2007, 14:11
That list looks like its going to add alot of personality to the list.
Thanks :)


That would work, it just seems that if you didn't get a territory(kidnap) for a couple games you'd really start having money troubles.
Well they start with quite a few guys as you've pointed out. So they just need to be careful. This element and the fact that breeding stops them working territories means they have to be careful with all those numbers which somewhat reduces how powerful they're going to be.


I can understand that, its just hard to figure out what the leader would be. In genestealer cults they're either ridiculous (like a magus) or they're thralls. They never really look toward anyone (besides the patriarch and his psychic link) to lead them around.
Agreed. But if its just some demagogue, priest like figure, that furthers the image of the cult just being another religion. A recruiter. Nothing special about him.


Once it gets ironed out it might go over pretty well. I am worried some people would see the word "Genestealer Cult" and just close their minds to it. We'll see I guess.
Well its a topic that keeps coming up. A lot of people are interested in it, the problem is the lack of gangs that really feel like a genestealer cult whilst not being overpowered. And i think this one really has potential.

azimaith
06-09-2007, 00:17
Hmmm a demagogue is a good idea actually. He would be this tendrils "face" and would also operate as its leader as well, someone to tell the authorities to "Move along, were just a sect worshipping the God-Emperor".

As such he would probably have relatively good WS and BS (common to other leaders) and a solid latent psychic power (brood telepathy). For leadership I would lean toward 7-8 since he gives everyone else around him leadership bonuses.