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Philip S
28-08-2007, 09:40
Inspired by all these ‘bring back the Dwarfs’ threads…

I always think of ‘squats’ as short humans subsumed into Imperium (if they really were knowledgeable about the STC then probably the Adeptus Mechanicus, all with bionic leg extensions so they blend in!). With the dwarf archetype gone form 40K and many wanting a ‘dwarf’ archetype in 40K, I thought why not break with current norms and re-look at the dwarf archetype.

First of all, I’m not to keen on ‘Dwarfs’ or ‘Dwarves’ as a name of a species as it’s a bit non descript, in implies it is a dwarf of something else, in 40K they are dwarfs of humans, but I think these Dwarfs should be unrelated.

So digging around in ye olde mythology, what about Gnomes? Not the English garden type, by the old German type. They seem to fit all the Dwarf characteristics, yet they have real name. Obviously we can change the name for 40K (no reason the Gnomes would refer to themselves and Gnomes).

Continuity: All the Gnome sightings in our history and the Gnome statues adorning many a garden are in fact the result of alien encounters in our past, when Gnomes visited Earth in the distant past (in 40K terms this would be pre-Dark Age). :p

Gnomes: Knowledgeable, wise, live underground, bit grumpy, collectors and prone to hording, able to built magnificent artefacts and appear magical – sounds like they have a lot of promise!

This is very similar to a fantasy Dwarf (and probably why they were dropped from Warhammer fantasy) the only difference is body type. Which brings me to the my biggest bugbear regarding fantasy dwarf is that their frame (or how it is usually portrayed) is probably the worst possible body to hang armour on, they are far too bulky and the limbs are too short considering the cross-section. The are suppose to be heavily armoured, yet armour is not their friend, especially plate armours, which is only exacerbated in 40K with the idea of space suits (unless they use fields – possible). Another irritation is their stumpy fingers do not seem to imply a high level of dexterity which they need to be master fabricators (fine for building stronghold in fantasy with hand tools, not so great for advanced technology - they would have trouble changing a fuse! Unless super big and block - hardly sophisticated)

I’m thinking the Gnomes would be more like the ‘Tau’, in that they use technology and lots off it. I also think there ‘magical’ nature can be explained away with their use of field technologies (similar to Ork use). So Gnomes become a mix of fantasy Dwarf, Tau and Ork - and perhaps the Slann.

As Gnomes are smaller that most, I’m thinking they really like battle suits (and due to size these suit could be no larger that a marine! Or perhaps the original old dreadnought model would do?) and most troops hang back as snipers… (hmm, seems they are very Tau, perhaps the Tau are the Gnome archetype?).

Gnome troopers could have all kinds of weird technology in a Slann type way, and maybe equipment that gives Psyker powers (the gear gives the power, the Gnome is not a Psyker).

On the table top you aren’t going to get many Gnomes for your points, but they could turn up as allies – but to whom?

Or they may build robots.

So, how would you represent Gnomes in 40K?

Philip

Dreadnought
28-08-2007, 10:23
I think a small part of my soul just died.

Sorry.

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 10:44
Dreadnought's right. Warhammer 40K doesn't need any creature that is represented in real life as something cute and sweet.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
28-08-2007, 10:48
haha, I had this thought last year cos a friend of mine has a weird but comedic obsession with warhammer AND Gnomes!

could have tiny ickle spaceships and the gnomes could be the size of nurglings, evil little space gnomes!!! with such tiny size, they could be very stealthy and hard to detect as well...perhaps even given them little gnome guns. :angel:

Green-is-best
28-08-2007, 10:50
/shudder

The Gnomish blight has already infected Azeroth and Draenor, why must it be brought to the 40k universe?!

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 11:02
Going SERIOUSLY off-topic for a moment, the gnomes in the Warcraft universe are nothing like they should be. If they were pictured properly, they would make dwarves look like pansies. They would be hardcore, grim, grime-dwelling and trogg-shooting killing machines with a vegeance.

But, WoW needed a "cute" race. So, instead of all gnomes being angry and pissed because they almost all died, they're still as cute as buttons!

EDIT: If you want to talk to me about this, PM me. Don't reply.

answer_is_42
28-08-2007, 11:08
If you want Gnomes, why not buy some Ratlings, and re-name them?

OR

Write a list, and do an army using Peter Pig's range...go on, I dare yah...

Khaine's Messenger
28-08-2007, 11:16
I'd put them alongside Hrud as one of the bottom-feeders of the galaxy who still have an absurdly integrated history with the galaxy's larger powers. "Gnomes" are small (less than a foot tall), use advanced holography and body-doubles of other creatures, and generally try not to make a nuisance of themselves while living amongst and below other sentient species. The scale on which they fight wars just doesn't work the same way 40k does nine times out of ten, and when they are forced to fight it is more of a guerrilla war that takes advantage of their small and innocuous nature as well as their technical wizardry. Battlesuits are rare (they prefer elaborate traps to anything with a large profile), but the "gnomes" are perfectly willing to tinker with others' war-making technologies if only for the challenge.

It's quite common for their body-doubles to work as engineers amongst respected institutions of learning scattered throughout the galaxy, but few civilizations know or appreciate it (and the results of the Imperium finding an "infestation" are predictable). One should be careful to note that the "gnomes" are not the source of all invention or even as insanely inventive as the Jokaero (never mind approaching Necrontyr-level technologies)...but they are out there.

Not very gnome-y all-around, but that was my initial thought.

Kage2020
28-08-2007, 12:02
:cries:

Kage

Chilltouch
28-08-2007, 12:47
What Kage said.

Now, if you don't mind, I think I will begin to work on Codex: Anime Girls...

... What? It fits in as much with the 40K universe as gnomes.

Drogmir
28-08-2007, 13:17
Do I smell a new Cow race too?

we'll call them the Buckers and they ride around worlds taking prisoners and raising them as food.

Sounds like a plan!

Philip S
28-08-2007, 13:52
I'd put them alongside Hrud as one of the bottom-feeders of the galaxy who still have an absurdly integrated history with the galaxy's larger powers.
With the Galaxy being so large, and much of it still outside the control of the Imperium, I was thinking they could be a new encounter, much like the Tau suddenly popped into existence.


"Gnomes" are small (less than a foot tall), use advanced holography and body-doubles of other creatures, and generally try not to make a nuisance of themselves while living amongst and below other sentient species. The scale on which they fight wars just doesn't work the same way 40k does nine times out of ten, and when they are forced to fight it is more of a guerrilla war that takes advantage of their small and innocuous nature as well as their technical wizardry. Battlesuits are rare (they prefer elaborate traps to anything with a large profile), but the "gnomes" are perfectly willing to tinker with others' war-making technologies if only for the challenge.

It's quite common for their body-doubles to work as engineers amongst respected institutions of learning scattered throughout the galaxy, but few civilizations know or appreciate it (and the results of the Imperium finding an "infestation" are predictable). One should be careful to note that the "gnomes" are not the source of all invention or even as insanely inventive as the Jokaero (never mind approaching Necrontyr-level technologies)...but they are out there.

Not very gnome-y all-around, but that was my initial thought.
Quite innocuous, but it works.

I was thinking more along the line of the Earth Spirit aspect, more ‘Erdgeist’ in concept, using technology to make manifest their desires (kinda like ‘forbidden planet’).

As for look, I’m thinking 5 foot (max), thin to the point of being emaciated, with very long fingers, and a wardrobe similar to Ming the Merciless’ from the old film (no pointy red hat!), but with some weird tech. I thinking ‘head stacks’, machine that generate Psyker powers, and am much more ‘wizard’ look. Covered is swirling metallic shapes similar to the ones found of force staffs. Beard wise, perhaps a single goatee plat with some ornamentation. (Maybe even so Tzeentch style floating disc - but mechanical).

Hmm, Erdgeist (Earth Spirit), I wonder if that would be a better name? (can always change it back to gnome once all the aspects and concepts are worked out – just to free the mind up a bit)

Perhaps also gate guardians? The Eldar may not have been the only one to inherit the webway form the Old Ones/ Slann.

Philip

Kage2020
28-08-2007, 13:58
The Eldar may not have been the only one to inherit the webway form the Old Ones/ Slann.
In a shoe-horn that only takes the current into account? That might actually work...

Yes, in a universe where each race practically needs its own form of interstellar travel, the Webway is the unique form of travel that is to be shared with all the other races. Yay, maybe we'll be seeing Orks using the "skim drive.." ;)

///Kage

Philip S
28-08-2007, 14:21
Yes, in a universe where each race practically needs its own form of interstellar travel, the Webway is the unique form of travel that is to be shared with all the other races. Yay, maybe we'll be seeing Orks using the "skim drive.." ;)
And there's me thinking you were being sarcastic, that for the clarification! :)

I wasn't aware that the webway for unique to the Eldar, I know humans have used it (quite a lot). It seems to me that the Eldar never bothered to make their own unique form of travel, after all if you know the webway why would you? (It's not like they have a huge need to).

I was thinking of the vast abandoned cities in the Horus Heresy books - it is too much of a leap to image someone found an portal/ gate and moved in?

I'm also thinking if the 'Gnomes of Zürich', and perhaps these gnomes have vast riches. They would be neutral and perhaps have interaction with the Eldar.

Hmm, maybe even a Slann bioform?

Philip

Ikkaan
28-08-2007, 14:22
The pain...oh, the pain...

superknijn
28-08-2007, 14:25
Ever heard of Demiurg?

azimaith
28-08-2007, 14:28
Gnomes are grotesque abhumans that stew in the dark depths of technoheresy. With no respect for the great Omnissiah they are heretics of the worst sort fit only for extermination.

As such I gladly submit this order for Exterminatus on all gnome held worlds followed by a hundred year quarantine lest their technoheresies survive initial bombardment.
-][-

And that is what happened to gnomes.

Bregalad
28-08-2007, 14:38
I see no difference between all those small bearded fellows in 40k. Esp. as Squats and Demiurg are all quite fond of technology.
Most non-GW Squat/Demiurg-alternatives (Hasslefree Grymn etc) are closer to gnomes thn dwarves anyway.

Philip S
29-08-2007, 07:06
Ever heard of Demiurg?
No, who are they? :p (Gnomes in fat suits! - err, bio-enhancement armour)


Gnomes are grotesque abhumans that stew in the dark depths of technoheresy. With no respect for the great Omnissiah they are heretics of the worst sort fit only for extermination.
I like this.


I see no difference between all those small bearded fellows in 40k. Esp. as Squats and Demiurg are all quite fond of technology.
Most non-GW Squat/Demiurg-alternatives (Hasslefree Grymn etc) are closer to gnomes thn dwarves anyway.
I think most Dwarf types, as they become ‘future dwarf types' become more gnome like. Perhaps degeneration/ evolution over the eons into a new species (‘dwarf’ like ancestor).

Anyway, being ‘Erdgeist’ I think they live deep underground, or deep within the web, or perhaps deep underground and the only access to these sanctuaries is via the Webway?

Philip

PS: Perhaps something more a mix of mundane and the warp, like the old vampyres from Rogue Trader, astral hounds and such, not a daemon more an entity - part warp entity part humanoid. Basically powerful Psyker with a soul that is self aware?

Grimbad
29-08-2007, 11:41
The local gaming store actually has a lawn gnome carrying a plasma gun. It rocks.

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 11:41
The local gaming store actually has a lawn gnome carrying a plasma gun. It rocks.

Oh man, awesome! Pictures please!

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 11:41
Why not just make up a race that isn't a modified race from fantasy sources. Why not make up your own race since there are weird races of xenos around like the Viskeons and such. Also, you could easily write that they are based on a planet with a strange electro-magnetic field so when Imperial Expeditions flew through the area they couldn't detect the planet and the reason no one has found them is because they are just learning how send expeditions into space (Think 1960's America)

precinctomega
29-08-2007, 19:19
Phil, no. I'm your biggest fan, but please just don't go this way. Haven't we got enough "coincidentally humanoid" races plaguing the 40kverse? You're the one who wants to retcon Eldar to make them less humanoid, for heaven's sake!

R.

Philip S
02-09-2007, 09:22
Why not just make up a race that isn't a modified race from fantasy sources.
Because 40K has a history of re-imaged fantasy archetypes, and what's the fun in re-imaging if there is no re-imaging to be done! Half the fun is twisting a fantasy archetype into 40K setting and seeing the change.


Phil, no. I'm your biggest fan, but please just don't go this way.
Erm, the Erdgeist wouldn’t end up as ‘Garden Gnomes with guns’, I thinking a complete re-image but fulfilling the dwarf/ gnome archetype.


Haven't we got enough "coincidentally humanoid" races plaguing the 40kverse?
Coincidentally humanoid? None of them are ‘coincidentally humanoid’, the Slann/ Old Ones did it!


Haven't You're the one who wants to retcon Eldar to make them less humanoid, for heaven's sake!
Sure do. I’m sure I would do the same to the Erdgeist. The Eldar are heavily modified from their original ‘real world’ myth, I sure the Erdgeist would be equally re-imaged. I mean, why shouldn’t ‘Dwarfs’ in 40K be as changed as Elves are to Eldar (and my Eldar)?

I'm also thinking they have 'Jokaero' like abilities, as the Jokaero seem rather Gnome like (maybe this is a Jokaero re-image too!).

Philip

ArtificerArmour
02-09-2007, 15:15
Armed with power fishing rods?

*shudders*

Maybe they could be represented by thousand sons, and when their proceline breaks their soul drifts away, to the great garden in the ether.

Autarch
03-09-2007, 15:52
Could a compromise not be met in terms of their appearance?

I'm thinking that they are in fact another energy race (fitting with the Erdgeist name), except one that is bound to planetary bodies and not the stars (I haven't figured that one out yet, bear with me, perhaps they need some kind of 'lodestone'). As such they require some kind of shell or foci to keep them coherent and able to interact with others (similar to the C'Tan I know but necessary for now). Rather than living metal though, the Erdgeist require relatively static designs.

Perhaps they were a species that could influence things on a very small scale, like the gremlins of myth (an idea that just popped into my head is that they piggybacked on starships and acted much like gremlins until becoming self-aware and driven) They decided that the other races had good ideas but that they could be improved (fitting with a tinkerer archetype). Of course, amongst the Priesthood of Mars any fiddling with holy designs would be super technoheresy, so the Erdgeist took to assuming the forms of other races; intricate technological bodies that allow them to roam through other races without detection. Certain brave Erdgeist would perhaps attempt to infiltrate the Mechanicus or other alien technological organisations, though not without risk of course!

Their general concept is that they like reformatting technology, even using it in ways that others haven't thought of yet. They amalgamate different races technologies into their own unique, branded mix. They'd create machines and technology to what suits their purpose, driven across the galaxy in an effort to find a perfect design.

Of course, they'd be terrified of things such as the C'Tan or Tyranids because of their capacity and will to completely destroy worlds. Worlds are full of interesting stuff. :)

Just some ideas.

Even if that approach isn't taken, I do envisage them as using exquisitely crafted technology, not as robust as Imperial or as organically graceful as Eldar, but intricate designs.

lord_blackfang
03-09-2007, 19:38
Sorry to break this to you, but 40k Gnomes are an old joke.

Ikkaan
04-09-2007, 08:57
Even if i see the whole idea as very sad (doesn´t fit either the space opera nor the scifi idea of 40k, but you can do what you want), its Erdgeist, not Erdgesit. It just German for Earthspirit, which is the lamest name for a 40k race imaginable.

I applaud your energy and motivation for your project, but it doesn´t float with most 40k people as it seems.

Philip S
04-09-2007, 12:08
I'm thinking that they are in fact another energy race (fitting with the Erdgeist name), except one that is bound to planetary bodies and not the stars (I haven't figured that one out yet, bear with me, perhaps they need some kind of 'lodestone').
That’s heading into my re-imaged Eldar territory! But it’s an idea, and a fun on at that.

Though the space gremlins would perhaps be better as a gremlin type, probably along the lines of the old Astral Hounds or enslavers. Non-chaos manifest warp entities.


Even if i see the whole idea as very sad (doesn´t fit either the space opera nor the scifi idea of 40k, but you can do what you want)
You mean like how the Tau and Necrons fit in?


its Erdgeist, not Erdgesit.
Ops, I could have sworn…


It just German for Earthspirit, which is the lamest name for a 40k race imaginable.
Warhammer has a fine tradition of lifting names, and German namea too (which often sound rather odd when translated – like ‘the Dentist’ a daemon homage to a certain film).

I picked Erdgeist because off this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdgeist

Basically a ‘gnome’ who weaves time and creates reality from immaterial, which kinda relates to the whole ‘Webway technicians’ idea that is in my head.

Here the ‘Dwarf’ archetype, which is usually far more advanced technologically than the humans within the same setting, are able to create the Webway through technology. They use machines to create the Webway, and gear which is similar to webway tech (draws on the warp for power).

This differs from the Eldar who directly muck about with Webway and Wraithbone via psyker powers. As such Eldar artefacts is more magical in nature, more integrated, whereas the Erdgeist (Dwarf/ Gnome) artefacts are more stand alone and technological in nature and endure, and the artefact draws and converts warp energy into power (Eldar gear tends to enhance what the Eldar already has, the energy draw is via the Eldar not the gear - if th gear is using psi energies)

On the plus side the Erdgeist artefacts isolate the user from the warp energy and are safe to use, Eldar can’t do this and need more ‘conventional’ technologies to power their gear (though I did use the Erdgeist concept my own person ideas on the Eldar - but I'll deal with that another time!).

This, in a round about way, ties into the idea in the fantasy setting that Dwarfs create magical artefacts through technology (runes etc) and are magically resistant, whereas the Elves are magical by nature and create artefacts through enchantment. (I’m guess runes last long than enchantment, and enchantment is by will, and a rune draws it’s own power).

Well that my thoughts…

Oh, almost forgot, as to image I’m thinking some Giger like, ether those strange little gnome like creatures with the ears for eyes of some long spindly thing, but Giger like none the less (as I think Giger’s style kinda suits the Webway and warp based technologies).

Philip

Hellebore
04-09-2007, 14:00
Go Go Phil!! :D

Looks great.

There's nothing wrong with urdgeist in 40k; it's just people's snobbish attitudes that get in the way.

No more stupid or boring than SpaceMacgyverOrangutans.

GigerGnomes would scare the crap out of me - I imagine they will be designed to perform some wierd biomechanical sexual perversion? :p

Hellebore

Witchfire
04-09-2007, 14:21
GW development team deleted the squats because of people whining about them having no list as below-

(in whining voice)-
''where are my squats? I want my squats! where are my squats?''

GW-''you know what? they arent anywhere because theyre all dead now!''


so is the story as told by the manager of my local GW store.

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
04-09-2007, 19:38
In my opinion, I do not like these humorous armies in 40k, it really does not fit the game universe, you can go ahead and do whatever you wnat to with this, but I would really not want to see it done.

Autarch
05-09-2007, 08:28
I think the only reason that these armies are considered 'humourous' is because people are imagining them to be garden gnomes, rather than thinking about the concept I think Philip is driving at.

Quite ironic really considered how prevalent Orks are in 40K and they are easily one of the silliest, more humourous armies I've come across! :D

Sticking with the Erdgeist name to cast aside notions of fishing rod armed alien little folk, I think this is a workable concept in design, if not in practice (because I have no idea how you'd model these creatures!).

Philip S
13-09-2007, 09:40
Go Go Phil!! :D

Looks great.
Cheers mate! Considering all the work you put into reviving/ re-imaging the squats I take this as a great compliment ;)


There's nothing wrong with urdgeist in 40k; it's just people's snobbish attitudes that get in the way.
Urdgeist? A misspelling or an alternate version? Either way it sounds cool (I wonder if it means anything in German?)


No more stupid or boring than SpaceMacgyverOrangutans.
Too true, or Orks.


GigerGnomes would scare the crap out of me - I imagine they will be designed to perform some wierd biomechanical sexual perversion? :p
Giger-Gnomes? I like that, a bit creepy, perhaps something like these little fellows;
http://www.visualgallery.com/giger_illuminatus.jpg
(or perhaps not!).

Certainly look the type to do alien abductions and perform gang probes!


I think the only reason that these armies are considered 'humourous' is because people are imagining them to be garden gnomes, rather than thinking about the concept I think Philip is driving at.
I agree, I think many hear ‘gnome’ and shut down their imagination. It kinda hard to see through preconceptions to the gems underneath (after all that’s what pictures are for! And there aren’t any picture yet, still thinking abut how they would fit in – gotta have a concept before you can design!)


Quite ironic really considered how prevalent Orks are in 40K and they are easily one of the silliest, more humourous armies I've come across! :D
There are indeed (yet I would like a far more scary Ork, while retaining the culture. I think it just needs a bit of explaining to get around the humour elements, flip it around to make the silliness the symptoms of something much more malignant. Mind you I think Nids are squigs out of control, but that’s just me! (explains the similarities in the ‘collective mind’)).


Sticking with the Erdgeist name to cast aside notions of fishing rod armed alien little folk, I think this is a workable concept in design, if not in practice (because I have no idea how you'd model these creatures!).
Will do!

I too have no idea how to model them, I wouldn’t use fantasy dwarfs, and the Slann models are all wrong (need high age Slann), perhaps another model range would be a better form a better start later? How knows until the concept is fleshed out.

Philip