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BrotherMoses
28-08-2007, 15:02
Do you think he is a God? Is he merely a mortal? What say you?

Drogmir
28-08-2007, 15:05
I think he wasn't a God but a human who became a god.

where does that fit in?

Tanith Ghost
28-08-2007, 15:13
As a god. As an IG player first, last, and always, I worship the God-Emperor
and fight in His holy name.

*votes 'yes' and orders a basilisk made ready to fire if anyone is foolish enough to vote 'no'*

Kriegsherr
28-08-2007, 15:36
I voted no.... just because it doesn't matters...

Gods are made by the masses worshipping them, so yes, the imperator is a god, and the most powerful with the exception of gork and mork maybe as only orks are as numerous as the humans in the galaxy.

The real wonders are done by the people believing that their deeds are guided by his divine hands, these wonders really seem to exists in the 40k universe at least, wether or not they are actually powers granted by a god...

The Imperator himself was, in my opinion, a man without equal when he still walked the earth... we will never know were he came from, who or what exactly he was or who created him. I think its highly possible that he himself was a beeing created in the dark age of technology as a superhuman clone or even a new stage in the evolution of man, much like the primarchs he created, just created with a much more advanced technology...

But in the end its all up to your own faith in something if you see a god or just a human beeing worshipped like a god

Bring on the Earthshaker shells ;) ... then again, as a Sororitas Player I'm quite happy how faithful my little lead nuns are and would never dare to talk against their faith... it has won me a lot of games

Stahlgeist
28-08-2007, 15:36
I'd say "not yet", but it look like he is/was headed in that direction...

rivers3162
28-08-2007, 15:45
I'd say possibly - he was certainly pretty powerful, I mean he defeated Horus, who had been blessed by the 4 gods of Chaos (who as I understand it, existed since or before the birth of mankind). He was a pretty powerful psyker and a military and scientific genius. However, he wasn't infallable and certainly was naieve when the Heresy first began.

Am I imagining things or did I once hear/read somewhere that the Emperor was a body inhabited by the souls of the greatest minds of the human race?

Devil-Tears
28-08-2007, 15:45
His powers were definitely equal to a gods...perhaps even greater. However, he was only a mortal in the end, blinded by the bonds he had with Horus.

MadDogMike
28-08-2007, 17:42
Hmm, going by Ghostbusters on the subject of the correct answer if asked about godhood - Yes, yes, absolutely he's a god!! :D

GrimZAG
29-08-2007, 11:41
no he was not a god, or ever will be, simply because of the fact that he was created, gods are eternal.

an extra-ordinary man, of course but just that.

Lord Malorne
29-08-2007, 11:41
I voted No as i beleive he was/is going to become a God.

The emperor's fall was all part of the master plan to gain the worship of the masses (Mmmm peasents)....unfortunatly the inquisition put a spanner in the works as they say and did the one thing to stop the emperor....

Eternal limbo and not the party kind unfortunatly!

Maybe you should change the poll as it does not factor the right answers to the question!

Cpt_Tiberius
29-08-2007, 11:41
He is not a god nor are the so-called "chaos gods" a true god lies outside the boundaries of all dimensions, both the emperor and the big 4 are tied directly to the material plane and it's warpspace couter part. They are actually just highly evolved psychic entities. They appear god-like to those lower on the psycho-evolutionary scale as they have abilities beyond those of "mortal" man. All humanity (and the other xeno races that are psychically active) have the same potential to reach "god-hood" as the emperor does, He is just much further along than we are.

As for him being a "god-force", I agree that he is not quite there yet. As he is still tied to his mortal shell.

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 11:41
A "no" from me, though I believe the situation can be complicated significantly depending on how you view it.

Kage

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
How is he not a God? he basically beat 4 chaos gods and a primarch.

I agree that he may not have been born a god, but once people worshipped him as one he became one.

MvS
29-08-2007, 11:41
In the sense that he has a galaxy spanning religion with countless sub-cults glorifying him and is woshipped by trillions of humans? Yes he is a god.

In the sense that he is like Khorne...? No.

What is happening to his super-psyker soul in the Warp and what effect all these trillions of worshipper have on it is still uncertain. He might be evolving into a god in the sense that is meant in GW mythology, although as Kage has mentioned, the older imagery makes reference to the birth of another New Man (or Emperor to the rest of us), making him more messianic and less omnscient and divine...

MvS
29-08-2007, 11:41
GrimZAG:

In 40K all gods came from somewhere...

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
Gods are created, how else would they come to being? it is even said somewhere in 40k that all the gods come from peoples emotions and are thus created.

Nothing just exists.

Also the Emperor is a God.

MrBigMr
29-08-2007, 11:41
Wiki sez:
"A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings."

The Emperor:
-Supernatural - check.
-Significant power - check.
-Worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings - check.

The C'Tan:
-Supernatural - check.
-Significant power - check.
-Worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by Necrontyr and maybe some humans - check.

The Chaos gods:
-Supernatural - check.
-Significant power - check.
-Worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings among others - check.

The Eldar gods:
-Supernatural - check.
-Significant power - check.
-Worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by the Eldar - check.

Etc.


As for real life gods, people tend to always look at the "one true God" and forget all the thousands of other religions and their gods. I like to think of the Emperor as a Greek god. The Olympians were born from the Titans (like how a person is born from a mother with the love of a father), they were far from immortal even if puny humans couldn't hurt them, they killed the Titans and took place as the "gods" of the people.

But still I refrain from voting clearly yes or no. Before Tanigh Ghost drops a shell on me, I am a Guard player too and worship the Emperor (as in the wargamer 'funny-ha-ha' kind of way), but I don't think the answer is as black and white.

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
If he isn't a God, then what are the saints that come in his name with his power? why do the fowl warp creatures fear the very mention of his name? why do the Grey Knights faith urt daemons to just be near them?

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 11:41
I was originally going to say no because Gods have eternal life when it hit me that the Emperor was around for several thousand years that's god-like if you ask me. And he was one of the most powerful psykers ever. That's why I voted yes, because when compared to normal humans he is a god.

Supremearchmarshal
29-08-2007, 11:41
The old fluff made it quite clear that he was mortal and that one day he will die, but may be reborn and that will herald a new golden age... or if it fails will cause a merging of warp-space and real-space and the birth of a new, incredibly powerful chaos god.

Anyway, the Emperor and the Chaos gods are only powerful in our own galaxy, the others are unknown to them - the Tyranids for example are immune to the effects of Chaos while the Hive Mind shields them. So no, the Emperor is not all-mighty and all-knowing and is thus not a God.

Vesica
29-08-2007, 18:49
The chaos GODS where created by emotions, are you going to say they arnt gods now?

MrBigMr
29-08-2007, 21:26
The old fluff made it quite clear that he was mortal and that one day he will die, but may be reborn and that will herald a new golden age... or if it fails will cause a merging of warp-space and real-space and the birth of a new, incredibly powerful chaos god.
Define mortal. Many gods have died. Even in 40K. And the Emperor 'died' only because he was very weak. I would think that if you could hammered a Chaos god into the condition the Emperor was in (in equal scale) they might die as well. And the C'Tan can be killed. And they can die from lack of energy. And Chaos gods can die from lack of emotions.


Anyway, the Emperor and the Chaos gods are only powerful in our own galaxy, the others are unknown to them - the Tyranids for example are immune to the effects of Chaos while the Hive Mind shields them. So no, the Emperor is not all-mighty and all-knowing and is thus not a God.
Well, as you said, only when the Hive Mind shields them. Emperor shields Terra from daemons, but take him away and we're effed up the pooper. There is a bit where Space Wolves board a Hive Ship corrupted by Nurgle.


The chaos GODS where created by emotions, are you going to say they arnt gods now?
Are daemons gods? They're made by emotions as well. Hell, Codex Eldar dafines the Avatar as a daemon, so wouldn't that mean that the Eldar gods are daemons?


So far the only thing that defines a 'god' in 40K is the title 'god'.

Rockerfella
29-08-2007, 21:35
I've slam dunked a 'no' I'm afraid. I guess its nowhere near as simple as a 'yes' or 'no', especially after spending long hours recently pondering the nature of the Emperor, chaos and Eldar gods in relation to each other.

Thats about as good as I can give really.

Supremearchmarshal
29-08-2007, 22:00
So far the only thing that defines a 'god' in 40K is the title 'god'.

You've got a point there.

As for his mortality, well it is implied that his body can in fact die, although what would then happen to his warp spirit is a mystery. But then again, it is also implied in 40k that all living creatures have an immortal soul, so it wouldn't make the Emperor different, just a lot more powerful. So if power is the key to making something in 40k a god, yes he is a god (but then again, some daemon princes have also taken this title, even though they aren't all that powerful on a galactic scale).

Devil-Tears
29-08-2007, 22:37
If he isn't a God, then what are the saints that come in his name with his power? why do the fowl warp creatures fear the very mention of his name? why do the Grey Knights faith urt daemons to just be near them?

Not to offend but....
Individuals are regarded as Saints only by some people, not by everyone, hence why the =I= are so concerned with cults and all that. There are many, many cases in which humans have thought they were worshiping the emperor, but in reality were worshiping the chaos gods. As for their powers, many of the so called "Emperor" psychic powers are related only related in name, as no one actually knows which powers the emperor have or not have. Warp creatures fear him just as they fear the primarchs.

Smishkun
30-08-2007, 00:25
I vote yes, I see two ways to look at the question.

A)In real life and in 40k, the only thing required to be classified as a god, is for people to call something such. What do religious folks have to go on? Just other people saying something is god.

B)Define godhood with power, its completely subjective at this point, but the emperor is the strongest being in a history of countless trillions(all the humans and probably all other races), so hes got it there as well.

Also, he may not be mystically created in the warp like the chaos gods were, but as ive read a few times before, the emperor was created by more direct means. So if anything id say the Emperor's purpose is more godlike than the chaos "gods". Gods are typically meant to look after their worshipers or particular domains, which the Emperor did for a long long time. The chaos gods are products of emotion, so who cares what they say, they are just the embodiment of emotions as far as im concerned and arent gods at all.

But then again who cares, "gods" can be killed in 40k, so all creatures have the potential ultimately.

Hellebore
30-08-2007, 01:13
The Shaman story describes a soul gestalt not unlike an eldar Exarch. Are they gods?


Either way, the Emperor is supposed to be a warp entity style of god, rather than a c'tan esque one.

He was not created to be worshipped. Assuming the shaman myth is true, he spent 38,000 years NOT being worshipped - that sort of thing really puts a crimp in your power if you ARE actually a god.

None of the chaos gods can walk around in mortal form, and the eldar gods sort of did and sort of didn't...

As the only evidence we have for the Emperor's history is the shaman myth, then it's really the only thing we can compare to.

He is formed from a pysker gestalt, meaning he is probably a little bit more powerful than an Eldar Farseer.
He was only worshipped at the end of his life: 38,000 years of no worship would normally kill an actual god.

After being stuck on the golden throne, people worshipped the image of the Emperor. Now, unless that worship and those souls each have a perfect image of the emperor's soul in them, there is NO WAY the actual emperor would receive them.

The emperor is like Sigmar; after thousands of years of myth, people worship an IMAGE of their god, which has formed in the warp. The chances that that image is actually THE emperor/sigmar is very minute. Every planet in the imperium worships the emperor differently, and thus could not be channelling their souls into the actual emperor's soulgestalt, because they aren't actually worshipping HIM, but a fractured reflection of him.

Hellebore

Smishkun
30-08-2007, 01:28
Obviously its impossible to know for sure, but the writings behind the emperor illude to him as the polar opposite of the chaos gods.

They are manifestations of dark emotions and are more sentient entities without shape than a particular concrete being such as the emperor.

According to the shaman theory he isnt made to be more or less just a strong psyker like a farseer. The shamans were mankind's spiritual leaders, and they formed the emperor as a bastion of what they saw in the old times when man was good and the warp couldnt taint them and they could harness its energies without error or manifestations. So if anything the emperor is created to be a counter-god to the gods of the warp.

Hes not bound by the same weaknesses of the gods of the warp, his weaknesses are human weaknesses, which is why he was rendered immobile by Horus. But think about it, if the Emperor had simply killed horus outright, would he have been as the shamen thought to make him in the first place? Probably not, or at least lest so. He was all that is good in men, where as the chaos gods were all the bad.

So the Emperor's weaknesses are that of man, he isnt made less powerful by not being worshipped, if anything he was more powerful by not being worshipped as the imperial truth significantly weakened the warp and he began to destroy it from terra. Also his point was to see mankind through the ages, he didnt have to be their literal god to do this, he did this in a variety of ways, until mankind's darkest hour, when it became necissary for him to unite them.

All godlike figures in 40k are different, so the emperor not being the same as the chaos gods doesnt make him ungodlike. He is simply their counter.

Vesica
30-08-2007, 01:35
Not to offend but....
Individuals are regarded as Saints only by some people, not by everyone, hence why the =I= are so concerned with cults and all that. There are many, many cases in which humans have thought they were worshiping the emperor, but in reality were worshiping the chaos gods. As for their powers, many of the so called "Emperor" psychic powers are related only related in name, as no one actually knows which powers the emperor have or not have. Warp creatures fear him just as they fear the primarchs.

Ok mabye a few of the saints are not real, but what about st celestine (sp?), and i cant recall a Daemon ever feel pain because of the faith in a primarch? or recoil in pain from the mention of there name.

Supremearchmarshal
30-08-2007, 08:10
Saints could draw their power from their belief in the Emperor rather than the Emperor himself. All creatures have a psychic potential, which only a few can use individually, but if they all focus on a belief their combined psychic might can actually produce a psychic effect - like the Ork's Waagh or Emperor's miracles.

Ktotwf
30-08-2007, 16:12
Its a two phase question.

When the Emperor walked among men, personally leading the Astartes and organizing the Imperium he was not a God. He was simply THE MOST POWERFUL BEING in existence. He was able to threaten the Chaos Gods both through his political constructs, and apparently through sheer psychic power.

After he "ascended" to the Golden Throne, yes, I believe he is something of an omniscient God.

The Epic Armageddon Rulebook's fluff section (which I quite like) describes it thus:

''Though the Emperor is a shattered and withered creature, he still watches over and guides humankind from the restorative essences, elixirs, and billowing alchemical gales of the Golden Throne of Terra. Through his vast psychic powers, the Emperor directs the Imperium's warships through the nightmare realm of the Warp. He forsees the possible futures of the Human race, and steers humanity so that it may overcome the many trials and challenges ahead."

So basically yeah. He watches over all of the Imperium and guides it with his psychic powers, apparently in very subtle ways. He uses psychic powers to guide humanity along a "golden path" to survival.

So, you can argue over the semantics about what it means to be a God, but I think the description above fits it pretty well in terms of the WH40k universe.

DantesInferno
30-08-2007, 23:05
So basically yeah. He watches over all of the Imperium and guides it with his psychic powers, apparently in very subtle ways. He uses psychic powers to guide humanity along a "golden path" to survival.

How's that been going recently?

If I had an omniscient deity with incredibly powerful psychic power watching over my intergalatic empire, I'd be hoping it would be faring a little better than the Imperium is.

RapidKiller
31-08-2007, 06:50
it depends the star child fluff is still relivant

Commissar_Sven
31-08-2007, 07:08
As Ktotwf has pointed out curent fluff has spoken he is now a god deal with it.

Sir_Turalyon
31-08-2007, 07:51
He's a warp presence that rivals chaos/ork gods in magnitude, it means he's a god himself. For some 40 millenia his warp presence was bound to working human body, like soul of ordinary human, so he did not need worship to sustain himself.

Arcanus
31-08-2007, 08:26
Yeah, well he was God-like as a human anyway so it really doesn't change much now that he is an official god.

Darthvegeta800
31-08-2007, 08:35
God, as gods tend to be flawed in most religions anyway so that argument is relative. It's inherent to the big monotheist religions to depict 'god' as flawless.
In most religions a God is superpowered, longliving, worshipped but imperfect in the end. Look at ancient religion: The gods are very 'human'.
So i'll call him a god, especially due to the supernatural events he has caused.
(because strangely the supernatural is kind of real for the good guys too and their faith, their machine spirits, their arcane symbols etc do seem to have an impact, not to mention their REAL Saints)

But i can understand it being questioned as it depends on how one defines a 'god'. As a historian i tend to think of older prototypes/archetypes not the main established views we currently have in society.
C'tan are relative too.

In a way the Chaos and Eldar gods seem of all the God candidates most easily accepted as truly 'gods'.

Rockerfella
31-08-2007, 10:23
As Ktotwf has pointed out curent fluff has spoken he is now a god deal with it.

Very good. An articulate, reasoned and thought provoking answer. :eyebrows:

Hellebore
31-08-2007, 10:27
As Ktotwf has pointed out curent fluff has spoken he is now a god deal with it.

So if I say I'm a god, and people worship me (http://206.251.75.210/forums/member.php?u=9608) does it make it true?

You're forgetting that worship does not necessarily go to the entity it is intended for.

The emperor's soul is NOT identical to the image humanity created in his name, and thus would not receive the power that worship creates.

The closest you get is a simulcrum of the emperor, a godhead with a passing similarity to what the emperor as a man with his own gestalt soul WAS.


These are pretty important differences.

Hellebore

MvS
31-08-2007, 10:52
''Though the Emperor is a shattered and withered creature, he still watches over and guides humankind from the restorative essences, elixirs, and billowing alchemical gales of the Golden Throne of Terra. Through his vast psychic powers, the Emperor directs the Imperium's warships through the nightmare realm of the Warp. He forsees the possible futures of the Human race, and steers humanity so that it may overcome the many trials and challenges ahead."

This is quite sinister if you ask me. We have this ever-so-slowly decaying creature on the Golden Throne, kept 'alive' after a fashion by the sacrifice of thousands of souls, but it is mortal. It can die. More than this, other sources have said that its mind is being gradually infiltrated by Chaos. By doubt. That would explain a lot of the paranoia, ignorance and horror in the Imperium I suppose.

As for the Emperor's soul, well I think it's true that belief in an image of what Imperials THINK is there god doesn't necessary empower the soul of the Emperor within the Warp. That said, we know that Warp entities like daemons have been described as 'sharks' in their natural habitat (not in the way they look, but in their predatory feeding habits), looking for souls, soul fragments and the like that they find particularly 'tasty' or that they fundamentally need to survive. Could the Emperor's soul not be similar? Could it not seek out souls and soul fragments that are particularly attuned to the idea nd purpose of the Emperor?

Okay the ideas and purposes that the mortal believed in while alive may be more a projection of mortals onto the Emperor rather than vice-versa, but maybe there are elements within that which make them slightly more attractive and 'digestible' to the Emperor's soul?

I like to think so. I like think the Carcass Emperor on the Golden Throne is slowly, slowly going mad and that he realises this and it is making him more fractionally paranoid throughout the millennia. I also like to think that there is an as yet unrealised potential for a new messiah swimming around in the Warp, slowly growing in potential and purpose, just waiting for some galvanising event to give it the power, momentum and identity enough to realise itself as a conscious being.

I just wonder how things would go down between the Warp Emperor and the Carcass Emperor if it came to it? Would one subsume the other? Or destroy one another? Or could they simply not exist upon the Physical Plane at the same time?

Questions, questions.

Hellebore
31-08-2007, 11:21
Okay the ideas and purposes that the mortal believed in while alive may be more a projection of mortals onto the Emperor rather than vice-versa, but maybe there are elements within that which make them slightly more attractive and 'digestible' to the Emperor's soul?

I like to think so. I like think the Carcass Emperor on the Golden Throne is slowly, slowly going mad and that he realises this and it is making him more fractionally paranoid throughout the millennia. I also like to think that there is an as yet unrealised potential for a new messiah swimming around in the Warp, slowly growing in potential and purpose, just waiting for some galvanising event to give it the power, momentum and identity enough to realise itself as a conscious being.

I just wonder how things would go down between the Warp Emperor and the Carcass Emperor if it came to it? Would one subsume the other? Or destroy one another? Or could they simply not exist upon the Physical Plane at the same time?

Questions, questions.


Well, if the Emperor truly wanted to destroy the chaos gods it would hardly do to keep a warp god in his own image alive.

Assuming the Emperor as scentist/atheist is a true representation, then his own godimage would be as repelent to him as the chaos gods themselves. In fact, IF this is true, then the emperor wouldn't find sustainence in the souls of those pious worshippers of the Warp Emperor, because they would be A: ignorant and B: religeously superstitious.

If the Emperor was truly an enemy of ignorance and religion, then having souls 'flavoured' in this way would not be attractive to him at all (if the logic of attraction is similarity).

Hellebore

BrotherMoses
31-08-2007, 13:36
So if I say I'm a god, and people worship me (http://206.251.75.210/forums/member.php?u=9608) does it make it true?
Hellebore

I'm with Stephen Colbert on this one. If enough people believe a fact, it becomes true. :D

Goq Gar
31-08-2007, 13:42
hasn't anyone read The Horus Heresy series? All is revealed therein.

Rockerfella
31-08-2007, 14:12
I'm with Stephen Colbert on this one. If enough people believe a fact, it becomes true. :D

It doesn't really though. Enough people once believed the earth was flat. No matter how many people believe this ditritus, it does not make it true. It just shatters their thin veneer of misbelief when the truth comes knocking on their doors.

Someone always comes along with bigger, better, more etc and proves you to be wrong.

The Church had western cultures believeing for generations that sun and the rest of the galaxy revolved around the earth. This is of course nonsense, and has been proved such.

Things evolve sure, and things change, but the truth will usually, in time, fwin out. People generally find the truth, if it dosen't find them.

Also.. the question for me is, do enough of the standard Imperial citezns really care if the Emperor is a god or not? ;) Thats if they believe he even exists themselves.

MvS
31-08-2007, 15:05
Well, if the Emperor truly wanted to destroy the chaos gods it would hardly do to keep a warp god in his own image alive.
I think destroying the Chaos Gods was one gambit tried by the Emperor and it failed. I don't think he would try the same trick twice, or at least not in the same way.


Assuming the Emperor as scentist/atheist is a true representation, then his own godimage would be as repelent to him as the chaos gods themselves.
Well hold on. Scientist certainly. Atheist? Not at all. He knew about the Chaos gods and daemons and the like. He may have feared them or found them repellent, and he certainly didn;t worship them, but that isn't non-belief. He promoted a secular rationalism and the fetishisation of empiricism because it damaged the Chaos Gods, not because he didn't believe in them.


In fact, IF this is true, then the emperor wouldn't find sustainence in the souls of those pious worshippers of the Warp Emperor, because they would be A: ignorant and B: religeously superstitious.
Well this is a difficult area.

I think daemons in the GW imagery can consume any unprotected soul or soul fragment they come across, if they are 'big' or powerful enough of course. It's just that particular sorts of souls and soul fragments attract some particular Warp entities more than others. So fragments of a man who died in a blind screaming rage might attract Khornate entities more quickly and violently than Nurgle's for instance.

The Emperor-in-the-Warp isn't 'just' a soul, he is a very powerful, though as yet still nascent, Warp entity. His choices are dispersion and probably consumption, or survival and a chance to fulfil whatever goals it has.

Seeing humanity survives to full awakening as a psychic race and a subsequent 'enlightenment' of some kind is what the New Man and Emperor wanted in life, and I would imagine that if the 'Star Child' imagery has any legs at all, these are still its motivations.


If the Emperor was truly an enemy of ignorance and religion, then having souls 'flavoured' in this way would not be attractive to him at all (if the logic of attraction is similarity).

The Emperor would not automatically associate religion with ignorance in terms of religion = believing the untrue = ignorance

He knows that souls, gods and daemons are real.

The ignorance the Emperor would have wanted to avoid was people misunderstanding the nature, means and influences of the divine, and therefore worshipping and attracting 'bad' gods and daemons.

For instance, I doubt he regarded the Eldar's understanding of their gods as ignorant, because, well, they aren't. As far as anyone does in the 40K universe, the Eldar understand the Warp, Chaos and the Divine.

It was fear of humanity's vulnerability and stupidity that prompted the Emperor to secularise. He'd lived through the horror of the Age of Strife and didn't want a repeat thank you very much.

However, what if by helping him awaken as a full God, humanity could help him to help them once more? Sounds like a reasonable deal. The blinkered atheism that caused so much ignorance as to the dangers of Chaos could be abandoned because now the game has changed. Chaos is revealed. The gods are present and playing their terrible games right across the galaxy.

Trying to reinstate secular atheism in the year 40,000 when religion and miracles and daemons and so on are so apparent would be counterfactual to the majority of humans and would serve no benefit to the Emperor in achieving his goals. You could say to a Cadian trooper that there are no such things as daemons and gods until your head fell off, but he'd still just look at you funny and make the sign of the Aquila.

That said, the Ecclesiarchy don't quite reflect what the Emperor means or wants necessarily, so there is a chance that the souls and faith of all those trillions of humans might be contaminating the nascent Star Child and forging it into something different - something more Old Testament wrath of God type stuff.

Or maybe the Star Child is more picky and is attracted to only those emotions, concepts, souls and soul fragments that give it what it wants and needs - maybe from saints and Grey Knight Grandmasters or whatever.

Who knows?

;)

MvS
31-08-2007, 15:08
the question for me is, do enough of the standard Imperial citezns really care if the Emperor is a god or not? ;) Thats if they believe he even exists themselves.

Depends where in the galaxy they live and whether they have fought in the Imperial Guard. Some places it would be stupid and apparently counterfactual NOT to believe in the Emperor. Especially around the EoT.

Captain Stern
31-08-2007, 15:14
Just as Horus had been corrupted, he too ran the risk of being perverted by the touch of Chaos. But the Emperor was the embodiment of the uncorrupted warp and for him to be tainted by Chaos would be a catastrophe unparalleled since the fall of the Eldar and birth of Slaanesh.
page 184 ROC: The Lost & the Damned

So the Emperor is the embodiment of the uncorrupted warp.
Hmmm. Aren't the Chaos Gods the embodiment of the corrupted warp? So, maybe the Emperor's not a mundane semi-super-human, semi-powerful psyker after all?

Kage2020
31-08-2007, 15:16
Or perhaps that is just standard GW writing? After all, the same book also argued that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were the creation of humanity.

Kage

Captain Stern
31-08-2007, 15:21
Just reminding people what the standard Games Workshop line on the Emperor is and has always been. ;)

Rockerfella
31-08-2007, 15:25
Depends where in the galaxy they live and whether they have fought in the Imperial Guard. Some places it would be stupid and apparently counterfactual NOT to believe in the Emperor. Especially around the EoT.

I think the billions of hive 'scum' that populate the imperium, the bottom feeders, if you will, probably care little in something they may quite easily see as nothing more than myth in the firstplace.

Christians the world over preach of jesus and his teachings, that dosen't mean the man next to me believes that jesus was the man who he claimed to be, or even believes he existed at all.

I dunoo. I'm waffling. As per.

:rolleyes:

Hellebore
31-08-2007, 16:26
Well hold on. Scientist certainly. Atheist? Not at all. He knew about the Chaos gods and daemons and the like. He may have feared them or found them repellent, and he certainly didn;t worship them, but that isn't non-belief. He promoted a secular rationalism and the fetishisation of empiricism because it damaged the Chaos Gods, not because he didn't believe in them.


Well, I think that even in the 40k universe atheism is not only possible, but isn't even illogical. The Warp is another dimension, it exists, there is evidence for it. It is also measureable. The entities within that medium are no more supernatural than those within realspace.

As I said earlier, just because something is called a god, doesn't mean it is. The definition of the omnipotent god Abrahamic religions describe is not used in 40k. Everything that a 'god' in 40k does has an effect on the universe, and as such is measureable. They are also not infinite. There power is definitely limited by the seperation of the warp and realspace.

Anyway, I would imagine that the best way to calm the warp would be to remove the emotive ability of all sentient races, or to elucidate them on the manner in which the warp functions, how emotions and souls exist within it.

The fact that there are laws that govern how souls and emotions interact within the warp means that it isn't as chaotic as it is often described - it IS governed by some universal laws.

Educating the populace and making them aware of this means that you can in some way calm or direct the way the warp functions. You can't control it per se, but if you can cut off the source of the chaos gods' power, then you kill them.

The necrons want to seal off realspace from the warp; but controlling the way sentient races emote would do almost the same thing. The old ones apparently had no emotions, or had a Vulcan-esque control on them, and managed to avoid making any chaos gods.




The Emperor would not automatically associate religion with ignorance in terms of religion = believing the untrue = ignorance

He knows that souls, gods and daemons are real.

The ignorance the Emperor would have wanted to avoid was people misunderstanding the nature, means and influences of the divine, and therefore worshipping and attracting 'bad' gods and daemons.


Well, we could argue semantics over the ignorant misconception that warp entities actually created by and thus beholden to the emotions of sentient realspace species are gods in the supernatural religious sense, but I know what you mean.

The warp isn't an unknowable supernatural unmeasureable godscape. The fact that it exists and can be observed alone is a constraint that proves that.




For instance, I doubt he regarded the Eldar's understanding of their gods as ignorant, because, well, they aren't. As far as anyone does in the 40K universe, the Eldar understand the Warp, Chaos and the Divine.

It was fear of humanity's vulnerability and stupidity that prompted the Emperor to secularise. He'd lived through the horror of the Age of Strife and didn't want a repeat thank you very much.

However, what if by helping him awaken as a full God, humanity could help him to help them once more? Sounds like a reasonable deal. The blinkered atheism that caused so much ignorance as to the dangers of Chaos could be abandoned because now the game has changed. Chaos is revealed. The gods are present and playing their terrible games right across the galaxy.


But that was just another lie to children. Atheism is only proposed today due to evidence (or lack thereof). However as I said, I don't see the warp entities as 'gods' and thus atheism still holds true. Anyway, the point here is knowledge and understanding, or lack thereof.

The thing is that humanity is still ignorant of the chaos gods, there only defence being to errect their own god. They keep propagating the mistakes of the past rather than fixing them.




Trying to reinstate secular atheism in the year 40,000 when religion and miracles and daemons and so on are so apparent would be counterfactual to the majority of humans and would serve no benefit to the Emperor in achieving his goals. You could say to a Cadian trooper that there are no such things as daemons and gods until your head fell off, but he'd still just look at you funny and make the sign of the Aquila.


Here you make a similar fallacy to the one I did regarding religion=ignorance. The truth is that those actions and creatures are no more miraculous or daemonic than it is miraculous that matter moves towards other matter with a higher density, or that a magnetic field can contain plasma. Just because religious ideoms are used to describe them makes them no more religious than calling Khorne a god makes him a god in the term used by modern religions. Of course, that's because the supernatural and divine in modern society is supposed to be undetectible and thus unmeasureable, ensuring it can never be absolutely disproven. As the warp exists in 40k, and is quantifiable, it is relegated to the mundanity of existence, no matter how bizarre it might be in comparison to the laws of realspace.



Hellebore

MvS
31-08-2007, 16:55
I think the billions of hive 'scum' that populate the imperium, the bottom feeders, if you will, probably care little in something they may quite easily see as nothing more than myth in the firstplace.
Yes but then I'm not referring to them. I'm referring to the billions that have had experiences where they have witnessed things that are 'supernatural' and where faith in the Emperor has made a tangible difference to alter/drive off these supernatural things. But I guess these are an extreme, as I said previously. Those cultures that exist in areas more prone to Warp overspill and so on.

Even so, I think superstition is rife throughout most of the Imperium, especially amongst the desperately poor and misused underclasses. Desperation breeds all kinds of beliefs, fetishes and cults. So genuine, if misguided, belief would be everywhere. That's part of the problem that the Emperor was trying to avoid in life, and probably the reason we get so many demonic cults springing up all over the show...

HELLEBORE:

Well indeed, and as you said we don't want to get bogged down in semantics of what a god is or isn't.

The Warp is measurable in a way, but not in a foolproof way or in an entirely predictable way. Few of its effects are wholly predictable at the dangerous level, hence the problem with the Heresy in the first place. The Emperor didn't educate about the Warp because even in his 'enlightened' times it seemed too... what? Dodgy to him? I don't know.

What matters for me is that if souls are real in the 40K universe though not measureable by any physical means, and if faith can have tangible and very apparent 'supernatural' effects, if your most private dreams and nightmares can come alive after a fashion and mess with you, and if there are entities of inscrutable nature and power who respond to prayers and worship, then this 'factualises' religion and the existence of gods for those who experience them.

You could educate the population to understand the nature of the Warp. What would you have then? Maybe something like the Eldar? A race with few delusions and ignorance but with a sort of sorcery/faith/technology where all three seem to get a little fuzzy around the edges and bleed into each other in some places. Mind you, even the Eldar got caught out because they thought they could understand and control themselves and the Warp more than they could. Even the Old Ones had problems with this.

What I think the Emperor, or at least his soul, might want/need to do (whether he can or not is another matter) would be to try to direct humanity away from the extremes of emotion that empower the destructive/Chaotic elements of the Warp, and also try to focus them in such a way that they empower the Emperor to be able to rise again and complete his plans.

It would a blend between the rationality and death of superstition that he sought in life, while also harnessing the tangible power of faith and souls in the 40K universe towards an 'enlightened' end - i.e.: bringing the shepherd back to his flock and giving him and even bigger stick to beat the wolves away with.

:)

Ktotwf
31-08-2007, 17:01
I will put this one fact out there, because I don't feel like getting involved in a gigantic internet debate:

Being members (I presume) of relatively educated Modern Western culture has perhaps given us a distorted view of the power of religion over the lives of people who live in a Theocratic atmosphere.

I really, really doubt there are any areas of the Imperium where exclusive and dedicated worship of the Emperor is not 98% the absolute norm.

One should perhaps think of the Imperium more like modern day Iran than modern day Britain or America.

Only the most twisted and vile rejects of society would even begin to think that the Emperor wasn't a God, simply because it had been pumped into them day and night since they were young that he was God, and it was reinforced by community and any media they would have access to.

Its like General Steiner said in his long thread about the Imperial Guard = Iraqi Republican Guard.

MvS
31-08-2007, 17:15
Being members (I presume) of relatively educated Modern Western culture has perhaps given us a distorted view of the power of religion over the lives of people who live in a Theocratic atmosphere.
Indeed. A good point.


One should perhaps think of the Imperium more like modern day Iran than modern day Britain or America.
Actually, don't believe everything we see on the news about Iran. You'd be surprised how diverse Iranians are and how much dissent there is. That said, I understand what you mean.


Only the most twisted and vile rejects of society would even begin to think that the Emperor wasn't a God, simply because it had been pumped into them day and night since they were young that he was God, and it was reinforced by community and any media they would have access to.
Yes. Although near-universal belief doesn't mean that some are as active as others in their religious observances.

Astner
31-08-2007, 18:21
There is a difference between "a god" and "the God"

Kage2020
31-08-2007, 20:34
Actually, the idea of the monolithic adoption of "Emperor worship" is one of those things that seems so out of kilter with the other aspects of vanilla interpretation of the 40k universe. Everything is so variable... except this <sound of stone tablets hitting crypt floor> Except it is variable and unsurprisingly so.

Ah well.

Kage

dr.oetk3r
31-08-2007, 22:22
Praise be to the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind blessed be his name.

Heretics the lot of you...

Hellebore
01-09-2007, 02:07
EDIT: I tried to post this 10 hours ago, but my computer was playing silly buggers...

I think the eldar didn't know as much as they thought they did.

I'm not sure how a race that understood the laws that governed god formation would have allowed themselves to create Slannesh. It is generally described as an accident; a parable in the mythological sense. There is some suggestion that a few eldar knew what was happening and welcomed it, ignorant of what it would bring.

However, the eldar had the most control over their gods, excepting the accident that was Slannesh.

Certainly theirs was the best way to deal with the fact of the warp's existence (excepting the old ones, but as their control was biological more than cultural necessarily, it isn't really something attainable - unless you engineer the human race to have no souls).

The thing is, there are technological means to manipulate and control the warp. Just as the warp can be used to muck with reality, we can somehow use realspace to manipulate the warp. We see this in the equipment astropaths are attached to, psyocculums used to detect psykers, and the all important Gellar field created by the warp drive of a ship. The crystaline lattice that runs through a force weapon facilitates the transfer of warp energy.

I think that alot of the power of the warp could be dampened if people implicitly understood that their own emotions and link to the soul were ultimately the sustainence warp creatures relied upon.

The whole soul thing is not very well described either; sentient creatures has one, but how does it form? Does every piece of matter in realspace have a warp reflection? Is it only the peculiar composition of a sentient creature that creates the 'soul' over a flat warp reflection?

Does the soul only form when the brain is developed? Thus a human wouldn't have a soul until ~9 months after being born.

If it wasn't for the apocalyptic intentions of the necrons, their great warding would definitely be the best thing that happened to the galaxy. Their inertialess drives prove that ftl is possible outside the warp, so the need for the warp would be negligible.

Hellebore

MvS
01-09-2007, 11:13
I think the eldar didn't know as much as they thought they did.
Indeed!

Or else they did, but the blandishments and subtle corruption of Chaos was such that not enough of them cared as much as they should have done when it came to it. A bit like hardened, lifelong chain smoker when confronted with images of people with heart disease or lung problems and therefore his own ultimate and painful demise... Meh...


The thing is, there are technological means to manipulate and control the warp. Just as the warp can be used to muck with reality, we can somehow use realspace to manipulate the warp. We see this in the equipment astropaths are attached to, psyocculums used to detect psykers, and the all important Gellar field created by the warp drive of a ship. The crystaline lattice that runs through a force weapon facilitates the transfer of warp energy.

Yes, but to put too much on this would be a mistake I think. The vast majority of these implements are ways of detecting warp/psychic signatures in Realspace or keeping the Warp at bay. They aren't about slicing a 'lump' of Warp energy, putting it into a jar and playing around with it. That is something only the mind can do, and even then only at great risk.

Force weapons focus the psykers own psychic energy. This is related to the Warp but not quite the same. Besides the differetiation made in the Eisenhorn novels between psychic power and Warpcraft, the 'fluff' for the Council of Nikea (that appeared in WD) also made the differentiation between the 'natural' skills of a psyker, almost like being an athlete, and the bizarre and scary sorcery needed to harness the Warp. I take harness to mean grab, sculpt and use, rather than detect (psyocculum) or ward away (geller field).

So, for me, the technological (non psychic/sorcerous) control of the Warp in quite minimal.


I think that alot of the power of the warp could be dampened if people implicitly understood that their own emotions and link to the soul were ultimately the sustainence warp creatures relied upon.
I think definitely so.


The whole soul thing is not very well described either; sentient creatures has one, but how does it form? Does every piece of matter in realspace have a warp reflection? Is it only the peculiar composition of a sentient creature that creates the 'soul' over a flat warp reflection?
I came across this in my writing actually.

There are hazy references here and there about the 'psychic organ' (brain), implying that only sentient mortal creatures with a brain can do psychic stuff, but this hardly helps much with the concept of 'soul'. Does a soul come from life? If so, define life. Does the 'living metal' of the necrodermis have a soul? Do the C'tan if they are living sentient mortal creatures (however bizarre and powerful)? We're told not.

Is it then only biological life? Is it in fact not a 'thing' but a process of interaction between the mind and the Warp? Is it something that grows throughout life?

I think the problem is that the mythology/theology of the 40K universe isn't amazingly well developed. There are so many cross overs between psychic and soul, and then so many things that seem mutually exclusive, and yet still the overwhelming 'feeling' of the imagery is that they aren't exclusive of each other. Mind you, GW understandably want to create stories and cool imagery, not spend a great deal of time reading up on theology and metaphysics only to write a heavy going book about it that almost no-one will buy.

I would, but then I'm not primarily interested in the games. :)


If it wasn't for the apocalyptic intentions of the necrons, their great warding would definitely be the best thing that happened to the galaxy. Their inertialess drives prove that ftl is possible outside the warp, so the need for the warp would be negligible.
Exactly! In fact if the Imperium could somehow steal their technology they could both keep their souls (for whatever use that is in the 40K universe), close up the EoT and the Maelstrom and so on, and still be able to travel (and apparently communicate) right across the galaxy.

:D

Hellebore
01-09-2007, 12:11
I think there are only a few ways to make a sentient soul 'special' in the context of the 40k universe.

Either, like the eldar the soul is/was immortal, and is simply a warp symbiote on the undefined mind of a realspace sapient creature, or it forms as a special manifestation of an organism.

There isn't any real description of in which 'direction' the link comes from; is the soul pushing through from the warp to interact with the body, or vice versa? If it is actually the body/mind itself, then that infers a peculiar capacity for realspace matter to force its way into the warp.

In effect you would get a naturally occurring perpetual 'warp drive' that pierces the wall between dimensions and keeps the portal open. If it is the soul, then that means it must already exist in some form in order to punch through, and attach itself to a living host.

In some ways I think I prefer the warp reflection idea. If everything has one, then a soul isn't special per se. The difference is in the construction of the neural pathways in the mind. Each atom and quark is reflected in the warp, albiet dimly. When these form a specific formula, or composition they produce a coherence in the warp referred to as the soul. Thus it is not a factor of being organic (which is based soley on the existence of hydrocarbons in your makeup), but rather the PATTERN your physicality exists in.

Sort of like the ability of a high frequency sound wave to shatter glass. Just the right pattern/frequency whatever, and suddenly the warp shadows align themselves in a semisentient fashion.

In effect the formation of sentient life in realspace creates complex life in the warp (compared to the warp reflection of an asteroid for instance).

So, assuming that 'sentience' is actually a quanitfiable thing in realspace, and can only form in a single 'pattern', technically anything that can also produce that pattern will create a soul.

This means that an embryo's soul is not developed until all the components that make it up in warp space are 'resonated' by the 'sentience pattern' (TM)
of the realspace counterpart.

Anywho, some random metaphysical chicanery roughage to keep the bowels of the mind regular....

Hellebore

Devil-Tears
02-09-2007, 02:43
The Eldar of the old were much like the Tau of the present; they didn't know what exactly they were getting into until they were to late. Like the Tau, the Eldar back then didn't know too much about the predations of the warp, and thus fell. They also felt that they would be able to do anything, considering they ruled the galaxy back then, and the power went to their head. Were they fools? Yea, but ignorant fools at that.

Endemion
02-09-2007, 10:02
He may have a presence in the warp, as all psychers do, but his body only exists in the material realm: he is not a god

Richter Kless
02-09-2007, 10:35
This question is way too vague to be answered.
What exactly makes a god?
Immortality; there have been stories of gods getting killed in the religion of ancient Egypt.
omnipresent; the gods of Olympus were not omnipresent.
all powerfull; the gods of Olympus did not even come close to being that.

But in my own opinion, yes. The Emperor is definately a god.

Chilltouch
02-09-2007, 11:40
The Emperor wasn't a God.
The Emperor is a God.
Why?
He is being worshipped by uncounted millions of billions as a God.

lapis_lazuli
02-09-2007, 16:13
The Emperor was a warlord and intellectual who was born on Earth during the Age of Strife. He conquered the planet, allied with Mars and supported research and development of ancient technologies as well as new ones. He had access to life extension therapies that allowed him to live for centuries and personally oversee the Great Crusade. Such towering achievements had been unseen for many millennia and his followers began to view him as a divine being. After his death during the Siege of Terra, his corpse was connected to the Golden Throne in a desperate act by his distraught followers. He is no more a god than Naram-sin or Julius Caesar. He does not sustain the Astronomican, nor does he watch over mankind or battle the Ruinous Powers. He is a dead body preserved in a shrine the size of a continent.

So I ignore the fluff that I don't like. Bite me. :p

Hive Mind 33
03-09-2007, 00:46
No he himself said he was not a god. Nor did he want to be one eex Telling Lorgar to stop worshiping him.
Also as a marine player he is not a god but a great man

Arcanus
03-09-2007, 01:20
No he himself said he was not a god. Nor did he want to be one eex Telling Lorgar to stop worshiping him.
Also as a marine player he is not a god but a great man

I'd agree with you but, what other man in the 40k universe lived 32 millenium? What other man could effect the warp like the Emperor? Thee answer is no one.

Lord Tzeentch
03-09-2007, 01:24
I say no simply because i think his a carrot.

Ktotwf
03-09-2007, 01:25
You are forgetting about Carrotos, the great Norse God of Carrots.

Devil-Tears
03-09-2007, 02:01
No he himself said he was not a god. Nor did he want to be one eex Telling Lorgar to stop worshiping him.
Also as a marine player he is not a god but a great man

In agreement. I mean, he discouraged the Word Bearers to go around preaching his name and stuff. He's more like an object of worship rather than a person now, being nailed to the Golden Throne and such.
Also, I may be wrong about this, but he isn't omnipresent, even when he was alive. I mean, half of the legions turned traitor and he still didn't know about it until it was too late.

Nikkolas
06-09-2007, 23:30
A god is a being of immense power and divine nature.

The Emperor is both.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 23:40
That's what I like to see. Immense power, whatever that means, check! Divine nature... Ch... Okay, no. What does that even mean.

This is one of those wonderful points where we get into the difference between 'religion' and 'faith.' We've goth rather a lot of 'faith' in the Emperor going on here, despite the accepted 'religion' of the Imperium. :D

Kage

Gen.Steiner
06-09-2007, 23:53
...difference between 'religion' and 'faith.'

Um? Religions require faith. Belief without proof; faith. Where is the dichotomy?

For the record, yes the Emperor is a God, but he wasn't one originally. He has ascended. By being half-dead. :p

PNETOD
06-09-2007, 23:57
yes of couse the big E is a god

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 23:58
Hell, where are the lions. I feel that there should be lions at this point!

:D ;) :rolleyes:

Kage

PNETOD
06-09-2007, 23:59
The Emperor was a warlord and intellectual who was born on Earth during the Age of Strife. He conquered the planet, allied with Mars and supported research and development of ancient technologies as well as new ones. He had access to life extension therapies that allowed him to live for centuries and personally oversee the Great Crusade. Such towering achievements had been unseen for many millennia and his followers began to view him as a divine being. After his death during the Siege of Terra, his corpse was connected to the Golden Throne in a desperate act by his distraught followers. He is no more a god than Naram-sin or Julius Caesar. He does not sustain the Astronomican, nor does he watch over mankind or battle the Ruinous Powers. He is a dead body preserved in a shrine the size of a continent.

So I ignore the fluff that I don't like. Bite me. :p





dude he killed horus by looking at him HE IS A GOD!!!:mad:


my apologies for yelling:p

Kage2020
07-09-2007, 00:02
Hallelujah.

What more to say? :rolleyes: :eyebrows:

Kage

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 00:05
Kage! Seriously! I want to know - what is the difference between religion and faith? Do you mean the difference between faith directed by organised hierarchical churches and faith that is undirected and unorganised, highly personal and often radical? Or something else? And how does it apply to the Ecclesiarchy, the cults, the citizenry, and the Imperium? :confused:

Nikkolas
07-09-2007, 01:02
That's what I like to see. Immense power, whatever that means, check! Divine nature... Ch... Okay, no. What does that even mean.

A god has many definitions but one they all share is power above all or at leas the majority. Gods can do things most people can't. God and power are linked and always have been.

Divine nature. You know the origins of the Emperor and what the Emperor is currently doing. He was born an immortal destined to lead mankind. That sounds as close to divine as you can get.

And now he's manifesting as a Warp power and supposedly saving souls of those who believe in him.

Vesica
07-09-2007, 01:29
He is a God, and all you god damn heretics had better treat him like one.

Or i might have to call a certain non-existant orginisation(sp?) on you.

Glory To The God Emperor.

Nikkolas
07-09-2007, 06:39
The Emperor's opposition to his own Godhood is overplayed. He usually disliked it because piety was a waste of time when there wa sa galaxy to conquer.

Corporal Chaos
07-09-2007, 16:26
He is merely a corpse on a life support system that keeps the body alive. He is brain dead and shriveled beyond resusitation. Not a god at all just a man who did great things. :skull:

Vesica
07-09-2007, 16:50
Only a heretic, traitor or xeno would deny he is a God, are you one of those?

Hive Mind 33
07-09-2007, 19:42
He is a God, and all you god damn heretics had better treat him like one.

Or i might have to call a certain non-existant orginisation(sp?) on you.

Glory To The God Emperor.

No he is not a god he may have become one after. Espically as a Space Marine Player he is not a god nor will he ever be a god to marines

FarseerMatt
08-09-2007, 00:03
The Emperor was mortal, and up until he got put on the Golden Throne I think everyone else shared this view. IIRC it was "decided" by the Ecclesiarchy shortly after the HH that the Emperor was a god (a faction of the Ministorum that believed so rose in power until it became the official religion of the Imperium). It was explained either in the BGB or one of the Inquisition codexes.

The Emperor himself may well not have wanted this, but of course he can't voice his opinion at the moment...

EDIT - Of course, that is to say that he WAS mortal...sod knows what he is now...

Nikkolas
08-09-2007, 06:11
Worship of the Emperor was not as widespread as it is now but he was still worshipped as a deity before his ascension to the Golden Throne.

He did not dislike this because he objected ti being aGod. Of course he was and still is a God. He objected to it because undue piety kept the conquering of the galaxy from getting underway. He was a practical and divine being, our beloved Emperor. He did not demand worship from the lesser beings.

Pyrotix
08-09-2007, 18:53
He's a god. The warp is a roiling mess for the most part controlled by daemons and choas gods, and it is by the Emperor's will that shining beacons guide his ships along their paths.

As well what happens to pious imperial citizens when they die? The thing with chaos cultists is as soon as they die their souls are no longer tethered to their own will and are consumed by chaos gods and daemons; psykers and Eldar can even have their souls consumed while they are alive, if they do not maintain discipline.

The emperor's divine psychic presence is the shield by which the faithful can escape the eternal horrors of chaos.

Karesk
08-09-2007, 23:02
After his 'ascension' to the Golden Throne, I interpret the Emperor to have become a presence in the warp, much like the Chaos Gods. I believe what the Hordes of Chaos army book says about the Chaos Gods to apply to 40K as well; that they are the sum of emotion and the psyche (human or alien).

As such I would label them Gods, in extension I would call the Emperor a God also. However, I realise that other people who hold the exact same interpretation of the nature of the Warp and its forces as I do, could equally say they are not.

In 40K, I believe that people create gods and not the other way around. The Emperor was deified by the cults that existed at time of the Horus Heresy and is sustained by the Ecclesiarchy...although how I would apply this to the nature of the C'tan I do not know.

In short; I believe that the Emperor is a God.