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Astner
28-08-2007, 15:03
I've been hearing that people are saying that the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind he is more powerful than the C'tan and Chaos Gods themselves.
Is this ture?

heretics bane
28-08-2007, 15:07
depends he is the most powerful human pysker around and he realy gave the chas gods a kicken when he finaly killed horus

Drogmir
28-08-2007, 15:07
That sounds mostly like Imperial Propaganda.

Nothing is more powerful than the C'tan expect for the Old Ones.

and saying that he's more powerful than a Chaos God is a long shot.

But some Primarches have killed Primach Deamon Princes so....

heretics bane
28-08-2007, 15:11
and one did kil a c'tan, Ferrus drowened one

Astner
28-08-2007, 15:12
That sounds mostly like Imperial Propaganda.

Nothing is more powerful than the C'tan expect for the Old Ones.

and saying that he's more powerful than a Chaos God is a long shot.

But some Primarches have killed Primach Deamon Princes so....
In the Fantasy universe, the Chaos Gods killed the Old Ones, wouldn't that make them more powerful than the C'tans?

Green-is-best
28-08-2007, 15:27
That sounds mostly like Imperial Propaganda.

Nothing is more powerful than the C'tan expect for the Old Ones.

and saying that he's more powerful than a Chaos God is a long shot.

But some Primarches have killed Primach Deamon Princes so....

The Emperor is far and away the most powerful single being in the 40k universe. When he was fully alive, his psychic reflection in the warp was powerful enough to be seen across the entire galaxy. As the galaxy's most powerful psyker, the Emperor would be able to crush a C'tan. Remember, the only reason Horus was able to hurt the Emperor was because he refused to believe that Horus had betrayed him so fully. Once he realized the extent of his son's corruption, he delivered a psychic blow so powerful that it forced the Chaos Gods from Horus' body and banished all the demons Horus' forces had summoned.

Astner
28-08-2007, 15:43
The Emperor is far and away the most powerful single being in the 40k universe. When he was fully alive, his psychic reflection in the warp was powerful enough to be seen across the entire galaxy. As the galaxy's most powerful psyker, the Emperor would be able to crush a C'tan. Remember, the only reason Horus was able to hurt the Emperor was because he refused to believe that Horus had betrayed him so fully. Once he realized the extent of his son's corruption, he delivered a psychic blow so powerful that it forced the Chaos Gods from Horus' body and banished all the demons Horus' forces had summoned.
Didn't the Emperor fall into a coma after that event?
And I doubt the Horus at that moment were equal to a Chaos God in power.

This is what wikipedia says.

The Great Crusade came to an end with the events of the Horus Heresy, when Horus turned on the Emperor. Under Horus's leadership, nine Space Marine Legions and many Imperial Army regiments turned to Chaos and started a galactic civil war.

Even as Horus' armies laid siege to Terra, the Emperor still believed that Horus could be redeemed due to his love for his son, and he maintained this belief even as he faced Horus in single combat. Due to his unwillingness to use his full power against his surrogate son, the Emperor suffered grievous injuries at Horus's hands. As Horus stood over the Emperor's shattered body, a single guard of the Adeptus Custodes entered the room. Horus flayed him alive with a single look. The guard's death galvanised the Emperor. He saw how far Horus had fallen and that there was only one way to defeat Chaos: to kill its pawn, his beloved son. The Emperor mustered a psychic lance of unparalleled power and unleashed it upon Horus. As the Chaos gods, taking immediately to self-preservation, deserted their pawn, the Emperor sensed the return of Horus's sanity. He knew Chaos might attempt to possess Horus again, and he would not be present to stop it a second time. Driving all compassion from his mind, the Emperor called on his inner reserves, and destroyed Horus' soul.

Devil-Tears
28-08-2007, 15:49
Didn't the Emperor fall into a coma after that event?
And I doubt the Horus at that moment were equal to a Chaos God in power.

Not just a coma, more of a near death unconciousness. They had to put him on the golden throne to keep him alive, and feed him thousands of souls so he wouldn't die. Then again, he did get extremely wounded, so its up for debate just HOW much power he used when he utterly destroyed Horus.

rivers3162
28-08-2007, 15:51
Didn't the Emperor fall into a coma after that event?
And I doubt the Horus at that moment were equal to a Chaos God in power.

No but wasn't Horus the closest Primarch to the Emperor in terms of skill, power, perfection, all-roundedness etc? That, plus the blessing of all 4 of the Chaos gods must've made him pretty powerful. But yeah, I'm sure the Emperor fell into a coma after blasting Horus and due to the wounds he sustained in the final duel.

Brother Enok
28-08-2007, 15:55
He was a primarch, an already immense being, and he was blessed by the four gods of chaos and the emporer killed him with ease. the Coma was caused by a burst eyeball, broken spine and his right arm being torn from his shoulder.

Its difficult to say how strong he was, but dismissing all fluff as "imperial propaganda" is the easy way out. As thier is no fluff (that I know of, correct me if Im wrong,) of him fighting then its hard to figure. Considering he was more powerful than the primarchs, or at least implied to be, we can at least get a measure of his prowess from the HH books. The Primarchs are formidable to say the least.

He was the most powerful human psyker to ever live, and was smart and cunning enough to unite all of humanity and then forge an empire amoung the stars. Imagine today, a single human being uniting every human on earth. consider the magnitude of the task. He created sons from his own genetic material, and then legions from them. Imagine today, a single human being uniting every human on earth. consider the magnitude of the task.

I remember reading someone that a rouge alpha level psyker could snap a titan in half through will power alone, so consider how powerful the empoer was. He also fought alongside his sons untill the imperial victory at Ullanor (sp).

Astner
28-08-2007, 15:59
Did the fight against Horus take place in the warp?

Brother Enok
28-08-2007, 16:01
on board the Vengeful Spirit, Horus' flagship, as it was anchor above Terra.

Astner
28-08-2007, 16:04
on board the invincible hand, his flagship as it was above Terra
So in the warp?

- Sorry for this I'm new.

Brother Enok
28-08-2007, 16:14
no, his flagship wasn't in the warp. it was above Terra.

Astner
28-08-2007, 16:16
no, his flagship wasn't in the warp. it was above Terra.
Sounds like earth to me (from latin) anyways--the Chaos God cannot use their full power outside the warp, am I correct?
Which would limit their bost to Horus as well.

If the Emperor stod face to face with a Chaos God in the Warp, I doubt he would've last long.

JimmyP0567
28-08-2007, 16:17
So in the warp?

- Sorry for this I'm new.

In space, not the warp.

:cheese:

Brother Enok
28-08-2007, 16:22
Terra is earth, correct. As for fighting a chaos god in the warp, im not sure. I know the chaos gods where scared of him. Its mentioned while the try and trick Horus in "Galaxy in flames".

azimaith
28-08-2007, 16:24
In the Fantasy universe, the Chaos Gods killed the Old Ones, wouldn't that make them more powerful than the C'tans?

Except the C'tan and their necrons destroyed the Old Ones and tore their civilization down, ruling the galaxy for an age.

The Emperor is quite powerful and at this point hes probably ascended to a god or demi-god like state.

I would put the scale something like this:
"Gods"
The 4 Major Chaos Powers in Descending Order:
Khorne, Tzeentch, (equal) Nurgle, Slannesh.

Equal to those:
The Remaining Four C'tan, in Descending Order:
The Void Dragon, The Outsider, (Equal) The Nightbringer, The Deceiver.

Equal to those:
The Hive Mind.

Equal to those:
The Eldar Pantheon.

Just Below those:
The God-Emperor.

Below that: The other powers of the warp.

Khaine's Messenger
28-08-2007, 17:27
Is this true?

The Emperor has things the other "great powers" want and has contrived a means of keeping his enemies from getting them for the short-term. Whether he could physically best certain "entities," or otherwise outwit them in the long-term, is something that remains to be seen, and such speculation forms the core of the hope written into the Star Child "prophecy."

Broadly speaking, no, he could not beat a C'tan or a Chaos God one-on-one as he sits now, and I doubt he could have done so during the Great Crusade, when he was arguably at the height of his physical prowess. He might be able to wound them, but that is hardly the same thing when it comes to creatures of the night such as the C'tan and the Ruinous Powers.

grickherder
28-08-2007, 17:52
We need to bear in mind that the Emperor was beating the chaos gods. If not for the infighting and the fall of Horus, the great crusade would have succeeded. The Emperor's light would have eventually reached all corners of the galaxy and even the C'tan would have eventually been swept aside by a united human crusade.

Leftenant Gashrog
28-08-2007, 18:44
Didnt one of the Realms of Chaos books state (in a meta-gamey way, not someones in-game opinion) that if the Golden Throne was switched off and his corpse allowed to die then he would ascend to a higher being and become a literal god (possibly more powerful than the chaos gods), but that the Imperium didnt know it and because of that he was destined for millenia of near-comatose senility?

Scriboergosum
28-08-2007, 18:46
I've always thought that the Chaos gods feared the Emperor not so much because of his personal strength and psychic powers, but because of what he was building.

A galaxy spanning empire where superstition is non-existant and scientific certainty and knowledge is paramount. Without any followers the Chaos gods would probably be a lot weaker and incredibly bored :)
Also, I remember reading that when the Heresy started, the Emperor was working on accessing the Webway, so warp travel would be obsolete. Again something the Chaos gods would probably hate.

I don't think the Emperor could have bested any of the Chaos gods or C'tan in single combat, if such a situation could ever have occurred, but I'm convinced the galaxy would've been completely dominated by the Imperium had it not been for Horus.
Fluff-wise it seems that few enemies could stand against the SM Legions and the rest of the Emperors armies for very long, and even if they could the outcome would always be the same. It was simply a matter of how long the enemies of the Imperium could postpone their own defeat.
Might be wrong about this, though, it's hard to know.


-Beck

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 00:28
This is going to sound incredibly cheesy, but it still holds. The Emperor is something akin to a "good" Chaos god made flesh. Just as Khorne was manifested by the psychic reflections of the most dire mortal bloodlust and Tzeentch was born from mortal cunning and deception, so too was the Emperor born from the reflection of mortals. However, as opposed to the largely negative emotions and qualities that the four great powers represent, the Emperor is the embodiment of all of mankind's most positive traits.

Honestly, the fact that he was able to defeat the supreme champion of Chaos undivided with a single blow indicates that the breadth and scope of his true power is really undiscussed in the canon. Further, I think the question of whether or not the Emperor could beat Khorne in a fist fight is kind of irrelevant. The Emperor's purpose was to protect mankind during its infancy on Terra and shepard humanity through it's psychic awakening. If man becomes a psychic race that can protect itself from the depredations of the warp, the Chaos gods would be done.

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 08:11
And this is exactly the reason that I was going to produce RPG statistics for an ante- and post-Golden Throne Emperor. Well, that and some of the interesting Primarchs. Sure will cause some controversy but at least it would be fun.

What is going to be the overall theme of the Emperor? That he was a powerful psyker, but ultimately human. He wasn't the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, nor will he become a god per se (the original 'fluff' stating that a second, New Man will be born from the Star Child, implying a physical being rather than an immaterial 'god'). He's just danged powerful and, depending on how he plays the game, can beat a more powerful being. Indeed, that's part of the point. If you play a game by someone elses rules, they're always going to have the advantage -- so you change those rules and make them dance to your tune.

That last is part of the reason that, for me at least, the Emperor was able to "defeat" the Primarchs. He didn't play by their rules... ;)

Anyway, back to creating those RPG statistics for the fun of it. :D

Kage

Captain Stern
29-08-2007, 10:35
He wasn't the most powerful psyker in the galaxy
Kage

Who's more powerful?

Astner
29-08-2007, 11:41
You can actually play these two in the game??
Appearently they are some kind of cheat characters.

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 11:41
You see, that's a common question asked, most especially when the Emperor's paramount position is questioned. In truth, I have no idea. He's the most powerful human psyker, but I don't think that it was ever stated that he was the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.

Could be wrong or it could be stated in the newer 'fluff,' the latter of which would not surprise me given the tendencies of the new writing.

Kage

Dakkagor
29-08-2007, 11:41
I think for raw power and depth and breadth of ability, The emperor had other "people" beat. However, when it came to specialties (like Eldrads seer abilities, or Tzeentchs manipulation, or nurgles entropy) he could be defeated. The emperor could cause people to rally to him in a dynamic, heroic way, but he couldn't sublty manipulate peoples feelings, hopes or desires, or even make pinpoint predictions about fate and people (or he would have found the primarchs alot faster and then controlled them much better)

heretics bane
29-08-2007, 11:41
If the Emperor stod face to face with a Chaos God in the Warp, I doubt he would've last long.

Is final attack on horus sent the chaos gods them selves reeling in terror from it so that could answer the question that he could go toe-to-toe against a chaos god and still manage to open a can of woop @ss on them and hes appearently silently protecting his imperium, just look at the warp storm "the emporers wrath" it wiped out and entire space fleet and the left over of the strom is still around today

As for his wounds marines themselves have survived alot more punishment from battle's and still went on to fight and primachs could take a lot more punishment, but some people say the Inqusition are keeping him trapped in the golden throne as they don't want him back again incase the traitor primachs came out(i think or it was for something else)

Astner
29-08-2007, 11:41
OK, I don't know if this matters but going by this screenshot from the Dawn of War game, the Nightbringer looks more powerful than the God-Emperor of Mankind.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6194/750624bw9.jpg

MvS
29-08-2007, 11:41
You can actually play these two in the game??

Idaan
29-08-2007, 11:41
This is going to sound incredibly cheesy, but it still holds. The Emperor is something akin to a "good" Chaos god made flesh. Just as Khorne was manifested by the psychic reflections of the most dire mortal bloodlust and Tzeentch was born from mortal cunning and deception, so too was the Emperor born from the reflection of mortals. However, as opposed to the largely negative emotions and qualities that the four great powers represent, the Emperor is the embodiment of all of mankind's most positive traits.That doesn't make him close to the Chaos Gods, more to the Eldar Gods of old and Gork&Mork. You see, the Chaos Gods are unwanted gods, ones who are born out of unfocussed beliefs, gestalt vortices of all the emotions which are just drifting there in the Warp. On the other side "normal" Gods are born out of conscious worship via religion and mythology, and they are largely controlled by their faithful (though it is unknown to them) - every thing the mortals believe they do, they do. And to add, "normal" Gods often have a seed around which the power gathers: an ascended soul (like that of the Emperor) or pre-shaped vortex (like Eldar Gods, which were shaped by Old Ones as sentient Warp-weapons).


And this is exactly the reason that I was going to produce RPG statistics for an ante- and post-Golden Throne Emperor. Well, that and some of the interesting Primarchs. Sure will cause some controversy but at least it would be fun.I can hear millions of cries right now: "Eldar fanboy!!!!!11111 You have no right" etc if you do them according to common sense, not Index Astartes (and subsequent) fluff.:rolleyes:


You see, that's a common question asked, most especially when the Emperor's paramount position is questioned. In truth, I have no idea. He's the most powerful human psyker, but I don't think that it was ever stated that he was the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.I'm really trying not to mention Eldrad because you speak about the power, not skill. So for example original Old Ones, seeing as now it became not a name of race, but instead a group of races or most powerful individuals of several races. But then again, is it really raw power that matters? Or is it more a question of skill? I think that post-Age of Strife psykers are more powerful than before and there were no mentions of Alpha level before. But on the other hand the Emperor would have thousands of years of experience and while not matching Alpha in terms of raw power, he'd still outclass him when it comes to knowledge, "know-how" and ways of exploiting his potential efficiently.


just look at the warp storm "the emporers wrath" it wiped out and entire space fleet and the left over of the strom is still around todayThere is no evidence that it is really an Emperor's creation. Even then it is smaller than EoT, which is the creation of the weakest Chaos God.

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
He is the immortal God Emperor and nothing can stand before his might, no xeno or traitors.

Also if he is so weak compared to the chaos gods, then why does the Imperium of man still exist?

Astner
29-08-2007, 11:41
He is the immortal God Emperor and nothing can stand before his might, no xeno or traitors.

Also if he is so weak compared to the chaos gods, then why does the Imperium of man still exist?
Because the real Chaos Gods are in the warp, while only a slight essence of them is in the universe?

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
Because the real Chaos Gods are in the warp, while only a slight essence of them is in the universe?

but surely if they have no opposition they would have taken the galaxy by now, i mean if he was only a man then they would have been able to corrupt his mind and body by now and as such destroy the galaxy.

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
Appearently they are some kind of cheat characters.

anyone know how to get them? i know the Nightbringer is in DC.

Astner
29-08-2007, 11:41
but surely if they have no opposition they would have taken the galaxy by now, i mean if he was only a man then they would have been able to corrupt his mind and body by now and as such destroy the galaxy.
Well, maybe if the Chaos Gods existed in the physical realm, but what's in it is but a fraction of them, the Gods themselves are in the Warp.

Idaan
29-08-2007, 11:41
but surely if they have no opposition they would have taken the galaxy by now, i mean if he was only a man then they would have been able to corrupt his mind and body by now and as such destroy the galaxy.Well, being "only" a man doesn't make you vulnerable to Chaos. Not knowing its peril, ambition, powerlust etc does. There are many mortal men in the Imperium who are incorruptible.


anyone know how to get them? i know the Nightbringer is in DC.
Try somewhere here http://dawnofwar.filefront.com/ I'm sure the Emperor was in some mod I was searching for long ago.

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
Yea but i doubt a normal person could survive 10,000 years of it.

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 11:41
That doesn't make him close to the Chaos Gods, more to the Eldar Gods of old and Gork&Mork. You see, the Chaos Gods are unwanted gods, ones who are born out of unfocussed beliefs, gestalt vortices of all the emotions which are just drifting there in the Warp. On the other side "normal" Gods are born out of conscious worship via religion and mythology, and they are largely controlled by their faithful (though it is unknown to them) - every thing the mortals believe they do, they do. And to add, "normal" Gods often have a seed around which the power gathers: an ascended soul (like that of the Emperor) or pre-shaped vortex (like Eldar Gods, which were shaped by Old Ones as sentient Warp-weapons).
I can hear millions of cries right now: "Eldar fanboy!!!!!11111 You have no right" etc if you do them according to common sense, not Index Astartes (and subsequent) fluff.:rolleyes:
I'm really trying not to mention Eldrad because you speak about the power, not skill. So for example original Old Ones, seeing as now it became not a name of race, but instead a group of races or most powerful individuals of several races. But then again, is it really raw power that matters? Or is it more a question of skill? I think that post-Age of Strife psykers are more powerful than before and there were no mentions of Alpha level before. But on the other hand the Emperor would have thousands of years of experience and while not matching Alpha in terms of raw power, he'd still outclass him when it comes to knowledge, "know-how" and ways of exploiting his potential efficiently.
There is no evidence that it is really an Emperor's creation. Even then it is smaller than EoT, which is the creation of the weakest Chaos God.

Where are you getting any of this? The Emperor not as powerful as an Alpha level pysker? I think not. Gork and Mork weaker than Chaos Gods? Um, Orks are the most prevelant race in the galaxy, just by virtue of that fact alone would make their gods at least as strong as others.

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 11:41
I think for raw power and depth and breadth of ability, The emperor had other "people" beat. However, when it came to specialties (like Eldrads seer abilities, or Tzeentchs manipulation, or nurgles entropy) he could be defeated.
I think this is a very reasonable point, and one that does tie into the perception of his as the paramount, well, everything. I've seen this in wargame conversions of the Emperor, where he is automatically given WS10, BS10, or S as high or higher than the creature (daemon, whatever) with the highest S, etc. A part of that can be laid at the feet of Sanguinius and the idea that the Emperor has to be more 'powerful,' than that Primarch, yet at the same time the Emperor was all but defeated by an Ork Warlord.

Ultimately I guess the same arguments are applied to his psychic powers.

Is this necessary, though? From what extremely limited information that we have for the Emperor, what has he actually done? What abilities has he shown? An ability to lay a glamour (Telepathy?) over himself and others? Clairsentience and Precognition, or the ability to see events separated over space and time? That he might be able to use his powers to mimic great strength (Telekinesis)? That he can release a psychic bolt of some kind?

Of course, that's just what is mentioned. He might have been able to do a great deal more. Perhaps he personally set up the wards on the Primarch Chamber (the ones that failed), rather than use "warp science?" It is suggested that his powers keep the "Imperial Webway" portal closed, but that might be as much skill as power, or represent power only in a focused area?

Who knows. I for one would not give him the highest levels in whatever psychic powers you happen to believe in just because he's the Emperor. For me it comes down to the minimum that can be ascribed to the Emperor. That's just me, though. At the moment, of nine powers that I'm thinking of using to model the Emperor he is only required to have five of them, and even then not at the "maximum" level. Of course, it would be pretty easy to max them out because, well, "He's the Emperor!"... Again, though, is it really necessary?


Is final attack on horus sent the chaos gods them selves reeling in terror from it so that could answer the question that he could go toe-to-toe against a chaos god...
He went up against an avatar of Chaos, one that was being fed power by the Ruinous Powers. Does that mean it was all their energy? After all, there are implications that there are practical (spiritual, psychic) reasons about the power or length of duration (or combination thereof) that a daemon can possess a mortal. Is there any reason to believe that something similar might not be the case with whatever energy the Ruinous Powers supplied Horus? Indeed, remember that this was a tumultuous time for the Powers of Chaos. After all, in cosmic terms, Slaanesh had just been "born."

The Emperor destroyed the soul of Horus, and thus the 'window' into the matterium that the Ruinous Powers had invested much in. When this failed they 'fled.' But how much power had they invested in the Heresy? Why is it commonly assumed that Horus was their only pawn, or their only plan? With the supposed guile and cunning of Tzeentch it comes down to, "Ooops, man is that Emperor is powerful. Should have seen that one coming." ;)

Just offering a different approach, though to be fair it has been mentioned numerous times before.


...just look at the warp storm "the emporers wrath"...
Well, it could be named after the Emperor even if he didn't have anything to do with it. After all, how many places in Britain are associated with King Arthur?


I can hear millions of cries right now: "Eldar fanboy!!!!!11111 You have no right" etc if you do them according to common sense, not Index Astartes (and subsequent) fluff.
LOL. At least there will be something else out there than the "l337" statistics and interpretations. :D


I'm really trying not to mention Eldrad because you speak about the power, not skill.
Damn fine point, Idaan. Yes, I believe there is a difference between power and skill -- the skillful opponent can defeat the enemy that is far more powerfulS, just as the sheer brute force of a powerful psyker might be able to defeat the sage, but lower-powered, psyke.


I think that post-Age of Strife psykers are more powerful than before and there were no mentions of Alpha level before.
To be fair, while I do believe that there were psykers before the Age of Strife, they were a low-powered lot, as well as being few and far between. It is only with the Age of Strife that they began to proliferate in numbers and power. At least, that's how I interpreted the original material.


But on the other hand the Emperor would have thousands of years of experience and while not matching Alpha in terms of raw power, he'd still outclass him when it comes to knowledge, "know-how" and ways of exploiting his potential efficiently.
To refer to the RPG statistics that I wish to produce, if it makes any difference, I do consider the Emperor "more powerful," or at least less-shackled, then the run-of-the-mill psykers. Just so you know. ;)


Even then it is smaller than EoT, which is the creation of the weakest Chaos God.
When Slaanesh was first born, It was considered the most powerful of the Ruinous Powers. At least for a while.


Also if he is so weak compared to the chaos gods, then why does the Imperium of man still exist?
Because he is but one man, if extremely powerful, that stood against the Chaos Gods. How many good men and women, if not as powerful, stand against Chaos? How many support Chaos? Where does the balance lie? ;)

Just some more thoughts.

Kage

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 11:41
Because he is but one man, if extremely powerful, that stood against the Chaos Gods. How many good men and women, if not as powerful, stand against Chaos? How many support Chaos? Where does the balance lie? ;)

Just some more thoughts.

Kage


I think this is where a lot of the confusion lies. The Emperor is not one man. I would definitely agree with a lot of the points about power vs. skill if he was some random birth human super psyker, but he's not. He is the physical manifestation of the conglomeration of 100s, if not 1000s, of the wisest and most powereful human proto-psykers.

Idaan
29-08-2007, 11:41
Gork and Mork weaker than Chaos Gods? Um, Orks are the most prevelant race in the galaxy, just by virtue of that fact alone would make their gods at least as strong as others.Uhm, I didn't say they were weaker, just that this is a different category of gods, whose power is coming from different source. And this makes them at least more focussed if not more powerful than the Chaos gods.

The Emperor not as powerful as an Alpha level pysker? I think not. Powerful as in possessing raw, untamed power? Yes. Powerful as in knowing how to harness and direct his power? No. To put it differently, I think that the Emperor would defeat an Alpha who didn't have skills in using his powers, but he would have some troubles fighting against a seasoned, several-hundred year-old Alpha. Still, just as you said it is down to your interpretation, as there are no solid examples.


He is the physical manifestation of the conglomeration of 100s, if not 1000s, of the wisest and most powereful human proto-psykers.There were a lot less psykers before Age of Strife per given number of population. Even in M41 there is 1 psyker for every 1 million of humans. And I don't know how big was the Earth's population in 8000BC, but I doubt it'd be big enough to have several 1000s of psykers at all, let alone these wise, experienced, top-of-the-crop shaman who conglomerated to create Emperor. I think 100 at most, but again it's left to our interpretation, as RoC says only that there was more than one shaman. (It even uses some strange plural like shamen or something IIRC)

Vesica
29-08-2007, 11:41
ok lets just settle this,

They are all equal, some are better in some ways whilst others a better in other ways.

The Emperor has to be the one with the most worship though.

Supremearchmarshal
29-08-2007, 19:03
but surely if they have no opposition they would have taken the galaxy by now, i mean if he was only a man then they would have been able to corrupt his mind and body by now and as such destroy the galaxy.

The old RoC fluff said that indeed the Chaos Gods were slowly poisoning his mind with doubt. The Emperor cannot exist in this form forever. He will die and Chaos will claim the galaxy. The fall of humanity will create a fifth, incredibly powerful chaos god. (IMO the old chaos gods would also fall to this new power, since they'd be much weaker than it!)

But, there is yet hope as the Emperor may also be reborn and herald the coming of a new golden age of mankind. There are several shadowy organizations within the Imperium that are all trying to achieve this, but they all see a different path to this rebirth.

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 19:21
Uhm, I didn't say they were weaker, just that this is a different category of gods, whose power is coming from different source. And this makes them at least more focussed if not more powerful than the Chaos gods.


That doesn't make him close to the Chaos Gods, more to the Eldar Gods of old and Gork&Mork.

Maybe I'm misunderstaning what you're getting at here then.


Powerful as in possessing raw, untamed power? Yes. Powerful as in knowing how to harness and direct his power? No. To put it differently, I think that the Emperor would defeat an Alpha who didn't have skills in using his powers, but he would have some troubles fighting against a seasoned, several-hundred year-old Alpha. Still, just as you said it is down to your interpretation, as there are no solid examples.


Again, I don't mean to be confrontational, but where are you getting this? At the point where the majority of the fluff concerning the Emperor is set, he's 38,000 years old, probably making him the oldest non-C'tan being in the material universe. There is zero indication in the fluff that the Emperor has anything but have complete and total awareness and command of his power as a psyker. Why would you assume that he doesn't?

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 19:22
I think this is where a lot of the confusion lies. The Emperor is not one man. I would definitely agree with a lot of the points about power vs. skill if he was some random birth human super psyker, but he's not. He is the physical manifestation of the conglomeration of 100s, if not 1000s, of the wisest and most powereful human proto-psykers.
Another common argument, but one that is difficult to go anywhere with. Everyone knows that the New Man was the agglomeration of an unspecified number of psykers, but, again, we don't know what it means. Just how powerful is that?

To be fair, though, my current thoughts on the RPG interpretation seem to mirror the discrepancy. That is, once again I utilise a completely separate system of modelling the Emperor's Powers when compared to, say, a normal human psyker. Or an Eldar psyker for that matter. (Just in case people were going to jump on the fact that I'm a self-admitted Eldarphile.)

So the Emperor is different. That still doesn't mean that you have to make him the most powerful by sheer dint of the fact that he is, after all, the Emperor.


It even uses some strange plural like shamen or something IIRC
Yep, it does. Silly GW copy editors. ;)


At the point where the majority of the fluff concerning the Emperor is set, he's 38,000 years old, probably making him the oldest non-C'tan being in the material universe. There is zero indication in the fluff that the Emperor has anything but have complete and total awareness and command of his power as a psyker. Why would you assume that he doesn't?
A good point, though one that I would personally accept only under certain caveats. Most important of these is just that he is "totally aware" of his powers doesn't mean that he has a complete and full understanding of all the myriad potentials of those powers. (For a quick analogy, if you thought of a "power" divided into levels on, say, a 1-10 scale, just because the Emperor is fully aware and able to use his powers at Level 2 doesn't mean that he knows everything about all the levels. Or, indeed, that he is Level 10 because he happens to have been 38,000 years old before he was placed into the Golden Throne.)

Again, for my purposes it seems reasonable to suggest that while the Emperor migth be particularly skilled at his given abilities - more powerful than might be represented against "normal" psykers - that doesn't mean he has all of them or that he is the most "powaful eva!", or whatever...

Kage

precinctomega
29-08-2007, 19:38
he's 38,000 years old

48,000.

R.

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 19:52
In my reading of the Fluff, I have yet to find a psyker that even approaches the power of the Emperor. The simple existance of the pre-Throne Astronomicon clearly means that his psychic reflection in the warp could easily outshine every other psyker in the galaxy at the same time. When viewed in conjuntion with his simultaneous banishing of every daemon in the Solar System during the Siege of Terra, I cannot see how any other psyker can even begin to compare. And that's ok, because he's not intented to be some most "powaful eva" human, but rather a singular being in the 40k galaxy.

Moreover, his unfathomable power is the key piece of his tragedy as a character. Though he could easily have killed Horus, it was ultimately his humanity that cost him his life. He was so blinded by his dedication to Horus as a father that, despite his incredible power, he could not bring himself to believe that his son had fallen so far. If he was just a powerful human psyker, then the story doesn't work quite as well.

Green-is-best
29-08-2007, 19:52
48,000.

R.

He's 38,000 in 30k, when most of the fluff around him is set.

Idaan
29-08-2007, 20:05
Maybe I'm misunderstaning what you're getting at here then.
So you have two different kinds of gods, with the difference being the source of power, not the size of it.
A. Chaos gods whose power comes mostly from raw emotion
B. other gods (Eldar, Ork, Hrudian gods) whose power comes from worship.
So seeing that most of the Emperor's power comes from humans worshipping it, he belongs to the B group. I was only questioning what you said about him being a "good Chaos god".


Again, I don't mean to be confrontational, but where are you getting this? At the point where the majority of the fluff concerning the Emperor is set, he's 38,000 years old, probably making him the oldest non-C'tan being in the material universe. There is zero indication in the fluff that the Emperor has anything but have complete and total awareness and command of his power as a psyker. Why would you assume that he doesn't?
In my example the Emperor's the one with knowledge accumulated through millennia, and the Alpha-level psyker the one with bigger innate power.

Sorry for being hard to understand but as a non-native speaker I have hard time expressing my thoughts sometimes. And trying to finish an army before Friday doesn't help too.

And is it only me or are you too having some problems with post display? Older posts and thread appear before the newer ones on my screen and it shows new posts in threads that don't have any.

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 21:01
The joys about this thread is that it reminds me of how, sometimes at least, GW's tendency to use "colour" or "flavour" text is as much flawed as it is not.


48,000.
As others have said, this is just the age that you get to the current (ish) timeline.


In my reading of the Fluff, I have yet to find a psyker that even approaches the power of the Emperor.
To be fair, you might want to check out the potential implications of Bill King's Farseer. It will be an interesting read if nothing else, at least depending on your preferences.


The simple existance of the pre-Throne Astronomicon clearly means that his psychic reflection in the warp could easily outshine every other psyker in the galaxy at the same time.
It does? Or are we getting into the realm of whether it is a 'reflection' (for me, unlikely) or a projection (more likely)?


When viewed in conjuntion with his simultaneous banishing of every daemon in the Solar System during the Siege of Terra, I cannot see how any other psyker can even begin to compare.
Oh god. That's Alan Merret again, isn't it?


Moreover, his unfathomable power is the key piece of his tragedy as a character.
Now that I can agree with. I believe it is the core essence of the Emperor character!

[quote=Idaan]So you have two different kinds of gods, with the difference being the source of power, not the size of it.
A. Chaos gods whose power comes mostly from raw emotion
B. other gods (Eldar, Ork, Hrudian gods) whose power comes from worship.
So seeing that most of the Emperor's power comes from humans worshipping it, he belongs to the B group. I was only questioning what you said about him being a "good Chaos god".]quote]
I personally don't think that it is that simple. Of course, I'm biased here. While I feel that it is great to believe that "Emperor worship" projects a singular view of the Emperor and the Imperial Cult, I just don't think that this is a practical reality given the, well, 'reality' of the 40k universe.

Kage

Dakkagor
29-08-2007, 22:36
I think this is a very reasonable point, and one that does tie into the perception of his as the paramount, well, everything. I've seen this in wargame conversions of the Emperor, where he is automatically given WS10, BS10, or S as high or higher than the creature (daemon, whatever) with the highest S, etc. A part of that can be laid at the feet of Sanguinius and the idea that the Emperor has to be more 'powerful,' than that Primarch, yet at the same time the Emperor was all but defeated by an Ork Warlord.

Ultimately I guess the same arguments are applied to his psychic powers.

Is this necessary, though? From what extremely limited information that we have for the Emperor, what has he actually done? What abilities has he shown? An ability to lay a glamour (Telepathy?) over himself and others? Clairsentience and Precognition, or the ability to see events separated over space and time? That he might be able to use his powers to mimic great strength (Telekinesis)? That he can release a psychic bolt of some kind?

Of course, that's just what is mentioned. He might have been able to do a great deal more. Perhaps he personally set up the wards on the Primarch Chamber (the ones that failed), rather than use "warp science?" It is suggested that his powers keep the "Imperial Webway" portal closed, but that might be as much skill as power, or represent power only in a focused area?

Who knows. I for one would not give him the highest levels in whatever psychic powers you happen to believe in just because he's the Emperor. For me it comes down to the minimum that can be ascribed to the Emperor. That's just me, though. At the moment, of nine powers that I'm thinking of using to model the Emperor he is only required to have five of them, and even then not at the "maximum" level. Of course, it would be pretty easy to max them out because, well, "He's the Emperor!"... Again, though, is it really necessary?

Kage

I think your missing my point, but maybe I didn't make it very well. I believe
1: the emperor was ferociously intelligent, and very shrewd at times
2: a talented generalist with a broad depth of skills
3: Psychically mighty, but not insurmountably so
4: physically impressive and possibly superhuman.

Arguments
1: the emperor was a scientist, geneticist and recognised by the Admech as the omnisiah. That indicates either an eidetic recall of science, or simple raw intelligence that is staggering. He was also tactically shrewd enough to realise his own limitations and not overstretch himself: creating the primarchs was an attempt to share the workload of conquering the galaxy.
2: see above. We know he was a fine warrior (His challenges against Russ, Vulkan and the defeating of Mortarions "Father" in the index astartes article indicate he is individually mightier than any of his primarchs when they where young and not properly equipped), scientifically gifted (led the primarch and astartes creation projects, but was smart enough to farm out the drudge work of both enterprises) and conquered the earth (something no-one has ever managed)
3: Able to astropathically communicate with Magnus over vast distances, scry the future (though not through the viels of the chaos gods attempting to thwart him, so we can guess that Tzeentch is his superior), and challenge the chaos gods on their own turf.
4: Debatable. I'm relatively sure that the primarchs where an outgrowth of his own (superior?) DNA. While he might have made those modifications himself, its also possible his body is simply superior to a normal humans (his ability to go where Mortarion could not on his homeworld, for instance)

Smishkun
30-08-2007, 01:01
According to the Horus Heresy Books, The emperor dwarves all humans including primarchs by immesurable amounts. In FotE it states when he sought out each primarch, not only did he easily defeat them all, but he on their behalf made it look like a good fight so there was no hard feelings and they retained their honor in their own eyes and in the eyes of their current and future troops.

Also in FotE it states that Malcador the Sigillate is the strongest psyker in the galaxy, second only to the Emperor himself. (Of course this is in reference to mankind, but since mankind is top dog during the great crusade....)

So as humans go, nobody compares to the Emperor at all, not horus possed by all chaos can throw into the materium(thus the emperors ease with dispatching horus after bearing the brunt of horus' punishment out of his own humanity), not alpha level psykers, nobody.(Im being definite here but its just opinion of course :) the great thing about fiction is making up your own mind about things)

Ok for the real challange, is the Emperor the equal of the Chaos Gods, The C'Tan, Gork and Mork(sp?), and the Eldar Gods?

Well firstly id say the Eldar gods are kaput because the Chaos Gods are more powerful as slaanesh bested many and the final two cannot defeat the great enemy.

My knowledge of the C'tan and Gork/Mork is limited but from the bits I do know, id say the emperor is at the least their equal. The necrons are powerful and the C'tan are deadly obviously, but mankind was but for themselves probably the strongest military force in the history of the galaxy, the space marines arent/werent worth much besides war, but they did that well enough.

Honestly the most dangerous thing to the materium is the immaterium, this is stated all over the fluff ive read, so this places the Chaos gods above all the others: c'tan, eldar gods certainly, gork and mork probably(though their race is incredibly powerful, but like chaos they are too kb{killing blow} to do a damn thing galactically.

Leaving only the Emperor to contest them ultimately. As it is mentioned in the HH books, the chaos gods fear the emperor, while the emperor does not fear the chaos gods and was dealing with them(destroying the warp itself as stated in false gods).

So id have to go with the Emperor is strongest of all.

But then again 40k is a game, and as such each race has their all powerful beings(Emperor, Chaos Gods, Eldar Gods, Gork/Mork, C'tan, Hive Mind) im not sure about the tau's, but everyone pretty much has one or more all powerful beings in their fluff. So they would all be on the same level as each other regardless.

Also I dont buy the "raw power" argument, there is no such thing. The emperor was so dangerous because of all that he represented, all that he sought to do, all that he had accomplished, unequalled psychic power, and physical might greater than any primarch or other foe hed ever faced. So that makes for a damn powerful force, and the greatest in my opinion.

Captain Stern
30-08-2007, 01:26
Like a few have already mentioned, I think an overwhelming proportion of the background considers him to be a singular being, and not to be classed or compared with other "normal humans" and psykers. A great recent example of this is provided in Horus Rising on page 134. Rogal Dorn reflects: "The Emperor has no like, Loken. There are no gods in this hollow universe to keep him company. So he made us, demi-gods, to stand beside him." Now, WE know that there actually ARE other gods in the universe, and that Dorn says this for reasons that become apparent later on in the story, but the point is that, in this book at least, The Emperor was considered by the primarchs - beings who displayed a myriad of wonderous physical and mental (though, sadly, not psychic) powers in this book, beings who had travelled the breadth of the galaxy, who had fought and defeated countless alien races (including Eldar), beings who had gained profound insight from such unique experience and by virtue of their super-human intellects - thought he was so impressive and beyond compare, that even they considered him a god.

No doubt there's background out there written by different authors that take a different view, and that 40k has largely become "pick and choose"(I personally avoid the subsequent Horus Heresy books, for example, because I can't stand them), but I for one never got the impression from ANY piece of 40k background that I've read that his nature was such that he could ever be compared with mere psykers and/ or exceptional humans.

Captain Stern
30-08-2007, 01:41
I think Gork and Mork are more powerful than any of them, personally.

thechosenone
30-08-2007, 02:38
I'm throwing my hat in the ring.

First i've seen a few people mention Gork and mork. These aren't really even gods so much as psionic manifestations of group thought, if anything at all. There is next to no mention of them in the Ork dex in this addition or any other. A few orks like Ghazkull believe in them but that's not reflected by any stat of any kind. They have no demons and only the most prmitive orks have any psionic capabilities.

The gods of chaos, in my opinion, feared not the emperor himself but what he represented. He was fully able to banish them after crippling their horus their vessel. Besides getting rid of demons via psy banishment is something any cookie cutter grey knight can do. Demons need warp energy to exist or warp influence and in the marerial universe without energy to feed on they vanish. So there wasn't much for the gods to do after horus was smashed.

Could the emperor wander into the warp, find the writhing warp mass that is a god of chaos and do anything about it... no. You can't banish anything back to the warp when your there. The gods are emotions given life and unless you turned all humanity into robots first they aren't going anywhere. He's doomed there. i don't see an argument.

On the C'tan. These things killed stars for breakfast, literally. They granted immortality to an entire race without tech but just their own god like power. They are Null in the warp, fully beings of the material universe. Assuming that a full Ctan, not in its shell, could face off against the emperor he'd have a lot to contend with. He's probably have a slightly easier fight on his hand by the fact that at least we know they can die. Beyond that i don't know how much they differ from the gods of chaos in power level. They ate STARS! the emperor fought orks personally on Ullanor during the crusade. If he could kill a star he certainly could have done something more amazing then get mixed in with orks. ATE STARS!

On the Hive Mind. Who can say what the emperor would have done against the Shadow in the Warp. his light is still snuffed out by Hive fleets approaching so when the doom of our time finally comes in full force across the void i'm not sure what the emperor could have done aside some mad heroics and movie marine esq action.

On the Eldar Gods, well its not totally and completly clear what they are but assuming they are different from the chaos gods and less powerful then the C'tan since you know... they killed a bunch of them I'd still give the upper hand to an eldar god and here's why. In Fulgrim, fulgrim the primarch chokes out an avatar after a long and hard battle. Hell its a challange for him to beat up a wraithlord. So assuming that the emperor is better then a primarch but not so much better that he couldn't just walk out of the golden palace and have at the enemy like sauron in fellowship says something. So again assuming that the gods of the eldar are better then their avatars... you get where i'm going.

Kage2020
30-08-2007, 13:37
I think your missing my point, but maybe I didn't make it very well.
Actually, I was primarily talking about his psychic powers, Dakkagor, but the principle does extend to the Emperor's other abilities, both physical and mental.

On the other hand, if your point was that I should believe you because you're right, that's another matter entirely.


...I believe...
Which is ultimately the key. You believe. I believe. Someone else believes. Ultimately it comes down to belief, or interpretation.


1: the emperor was ferociously intelligent, and very shrewd at times
2: a talented generalist with a broad depth of skills
3: Psychically mighty, but not insurmountably so
4: physically impressive and possibly superhuman.
In my interpretation, I agree that his intelligence - and by that I include experience, as well - was one of his primary characteristics. Similarly, I also consider him to be psychically powerful and physically "perfect," just not superhuman.

What I don't tend to believe is that he was necessarily: (1) the most intelligent person ever; (2) the highest skilled at everything; (3) the most powerful psychic in every regard; and (4) superhuman. (Not saying that you argued that.)

That is my belief, and when I get around to producing the aforementioned statistics this will be reflected in that.

With regards to the arguments that you presented.


the emperor was a scientist, geneticist and recognised by the Admech as the omnisiah.
We know so very little about the Emperor, but I too have always believed that he was a scientist. No, more a polymath, or renaissance man. That doesn't mean that I believe he was the most intelligent, as above, or could beat all scientists in history in some form of "science face off" in their individual subjects. That doesn't take away his genius, though.

And, as below, he could quite simple have flim-flammed the Adeptus Mechanicu, especially if you believe in the vanilla approach to that organisation. ;)


That indicates either an eidetic recall of science, or simple raw intelligence that is staggering.
Or, alternatively, that he was intelligent and took science to the level of artistry. Even better, he was a philosopher -- he who loved wisdom. Yay, a renaissance man.

Does he have an eidetic memory? That's something that I consider a possibility, but regardless he could fake it quite simply with technology. That's one of those things that might often be forgotten about the Emperor -- he spent tens of millennia hiding what he was, who he was and what his purpose was. Intelligence might be one of his primary characters, but one can also make a very strong argument that guile was another one of those. Perhaps his years gave him knowledge of the human condition -- how to manipulate humans, persuade, cajole and fool them into doing what he wanted. After all, one of his primary concepts was that in his earlier life he was the essential "power behind the throne."


He was also tactically shrewd enough to realise his own limitations and not overstretch himself: creating the primarchs was an attempt to share the workload of conquering the galaxy.
Actually, the purpose of the Primarchs was a project to replace humanity, after its true weakness had been shown with the Long Night of the Age of Strife. It just went south.

...At least originally.


...but was smart enough to farm out the drudge work of both enterprises)...
Did he? Or did he have the vision and others had the ability to bring it to fruition? Perhaps the Emperor's greatest ability was to recognise the potential in others and to facilitate their use of it. That neatly explains quite a bit about the Emperor and the Horus Heresy, as well as not requiring that the Emperor is the best at everything and spends most of his time trying to make others feel better about themselves.


...and conquered the earth (something no-one has ever managed)...
Well, to be fair he is the first that we have heard about that "conquered" Earth, though it might have happened in earlier periods. Also, while it's great to say that the "Emperor conquered Earth," this ties into the cult of the hero that you see in some interpretations of the American Civil War -- Grant crosses the river and pushes Lee back, etc. Kind of misses out on the thousands of troops that were employed.

Sorry if that sounds pendantic and obvious, but in the 40k universe it is an easy transition from, "The Emperor commanded the forces that conquered Earth" (including non-martial assimilation) to, "Well, the Emperor could have done it single-handedly since, after all, he was a god. He just wanted to give the poor genetically enhanced slobs something to do."


3: Able to astropathically communicate with Magnus over vast distances, scry the future (though not through the viels of the chaos gods attempting to thwart him, so we can guess that Tzeentch is his superior),
This does not mean that he was the most powerful, just that he was powerful. Once more, though, I personally wouldn't model the Emperor with the same kind of system as "normal" psykers.


4: Debatable. I'm relatively sure that the primarchs where an outgrowth of his own (superior?) DNA.
Which, of course, doesn't mean that he was physically superhuman himself. Just that he started with a great sample of DNA.


...and challenge the chaos gods on their own turf.
I'm intrigued as to when the Chaos Gods were "[challenged] on their own turf?" I must be missing something really obvious, or have forgotten it since my last reading of the 'fluff' (highly likely - I am getting old!).


In FotE it states when he sought out each primarch, not only did he easily defeat them all, but he on their behalf made it look like a good fight so there was no hard feelings...
Which ties into the high fantasy, mythological tone that has perpetuated throughout the Horus Heresy novels, surely? Literary power creep...


On the C'tan. These things killed stars for breakfast, literally. They granted immortality to an entire race without tech but just their own god like power.
Except that they did use technology...


the emperor fought orks personally on Ullanor during the crusade. If he could kill a star he certainly could have done something more amazing then get mixed in with orks.
Hellebore's quote in ?Dakkagor's signature kind of explains this one. Thus, 40k.


In Fulgrim, fulgrim the primarch chokes out an avatar after a long and hard battle.
The single combat between Fulgrim and the Bloody Handed Avatar could hardly be called protracted. As mentioned elsewhere it's like a combination of the opening scenes of Troy[i] (Achilles vs. the enemy warrior) mixed with [i]Princess Bride (where Wesley disarms Inigo in their duel), a stupified moment, and then Rocky (just without the mind-numbing beating that the character normally receives before he wins out in the end). I literally felt surprise when Fulgrim didn't start calling out "Adrian!" ;)

Of course, this all comes down to, "My made up gun is more powerful than your made up gun and thus can defeat your made up armour without any problem. And no, you don't have an made up invisible force field." :D

Kage

Rockerfella
30-08-2007, 13:55
As an aside, I've just finished the section in Fulgrim where he fights the Eldar and the Avatar *sighs heavily*

So, not only do we have lucius killing an Exarch. We have Fulgrim smashing a wraithlord to smitherines with his fists, then doing the same to an Avatar.

I haven't picked the book up since. As Kage said.... Laaaaaaammmmmmeeeeeeeeeeee.

As far as the Emperor is concerend, I think his intelligence was probably his most powerful asset. He's clearly a 'very' powerul entity. He must have been in order to unite the clans of mankind. I think however, aside from psychic might and intelligence, its his leadership, political know how and shrewd nature that was second to none.

I get the impression the Emperor would have been something like Allistair Campbell. *shivers*

Cheers.

TrooperTino
30-08-2007, 14:27
first I apologize for not having read all posts, so perhaps this is allready mentioned before...

In the end of the Age of Apostasie (spelling?) Vandire sent a Battlefleet to crush opposing forces gathering around Thorian. This Battlefleet was destroyed by a Warpstorm which happened so fast and precise that is was told to have been the Emperors doing. In german it (the warpstorm) is called 'Zornessturm des Imperators' translated: 'Storm of the Emperors wrath' or something like this. This is all from memory and may be completely false. But I like the Idea that the Emperor is really really powerfull, but only very few times using this power.

It may be a big difference in his powers before and after the HH, too. Because he is now worshipped as a god by billions and billions of humans.

Captain Stern
30-08-2007, 14:50
OK, I don't know if this matters but going by this screenshot from the Dawn of War game, the Nightbringer looks more powerful than the God-Emperor of Mankind.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6194/750624bw9.jpg

That's just the Space Marine Captain who the player's named 'God Emperor of Mankind'.

Ktotwf
30-08-2007, 16:34
It depends on your viewpoint.

To paraphrase Gandalf, there are many powers against which the Emperor has "not yet been tested."

The current Horus Heresy descriptions of the Emperor tend to veer MUCH more to the 'OMGZROZ! HE IS TEH UBERLEET!" version of the Emperor, rather than the more mundane and weaker version so beloved of the Forum's resident Eldarphiles.

I'll put it this way...the Emperor is like to a man, born among a race of blind people, who can see infinitely out into the distance.

He is the unbeatable hero, the great leader, the intangible X-factor, the reason that Humanity dominates the galaxy and every other race scratches jealously at its perimeter, wishing it was half as great as the eternal Imperium of Man.

He is the great hope of Humanity, the Order that stands boldly against Chaos' ...well, chaos.

Whether he is a God, whether he could stand toe to toe with a C'Tan is mostly irrelevant, because in the end that is not what it is all about.

If you want to make him into some RPG character go ahead, but judging by the latest GW fluff, I would say you should make him AT LEAST as powerful as any character, probably more so.

Rockerfella
30-08-2007, 17:20
Has he finished yet? ;)


It depends on your viewpoint.

Of course!! I wouldn't have it any other way. If it didn't depend on ones own viewpoint, i'd be forced into believing the rot thats littered this thread thus far! Fortunately for 'eldarphiles' such as me, that isn't the case. :)


The current Horus Heresy descriptions of the Emperor tend to veer MUCH more to the 'OMGZROZ! HE IS TEH UBERLEET!" version of the Emperor, rather than the more mundane and weaker version so beloved of the Forum's resident Eldarphiles.

Again, as you said earlier, this all boils down to the finer art of personal interpretation. However weak I may think the Emperor is, in comparison to maybe your interpretation of the Emperor (I also don't believe that he was EVER 'the most powerful being in existence' as you said on another thread) he's still an incredibly powerful being in my eyes. I just like to put things in perspective and not get over excited and embroiled in the idea that the Emperor must be the 'ardest' at everything. Be honest, some will froth and rock at the mere suggestion that this is NOT the case.


Cheers! :)

Kage2020
30-08-2007, 17:44
It depends on your viewpoint.
Always does.


The current Horus Heresy descriptions of the Emperor tend to veer MUCH more to the 'OMGZROZ! HE IS TEH UBERLEET!" version of the Emperor, rather than the more mundane and weaker version so beloved of the Forum's resident Eldarphiles.
Well, more "original" versus "OMGZROZ! HE IS TEH UBERLEET!" current version.


He is the unbeatable hero, the great leader, the intangible X-factor, the reason that Humanity dominates the galaxy and every other race scratches jealously at its perimeter, wishing it was half as great as the eternal Imperium of Man.
That's one approach and, one could argue, straight out of an Adeptus Ministorum text book. We're back to that interpretation thing, though, which is great!


If you want to make him into some RPG character go ahead, but judging by the latest GW fluff, I would say you should make him AT LEAST as powerful as any character, probably more so.
Again, that's one approach. Thankfully I'm not overtly fond of judging solely by the latest 'fluff' - I'm very much an anti-Revisionist - and have decided to follow an approach found in the Amber Diceless RPG.

Wha? Basically this was an RPG that allowed you to take on the role of "Amberites" from the works of Roger Zelazny (which I heartily recommend, BTW). Depending on your approach, each of these individuals was basically a "walking god" in the kind of pattern that you see in the "heroic fantasy" interpretation of the Emperor and the Primarchs. Since the novels presented the views of a single author (Corwin, Prince of Amber) with the inherent bias therein, when they created the RPG a number of interpretations of each character was presented. Different flavours and different power levels, such that one character might be presented as a lower-powered ba**ard, a higher powered benevolent or something in between.

Thus my current goal - again, it's for fun! - is to present an interpretation of post-incarceration (in the Golden Throne) Emperor, whereby he is might be argued to be a tripartite individual, the components of which I have named "The Husk," "The Child," and "The Twin." The pre-incarceration versions I am currently using the flavoursome names of, "The Trickster," "The Scientist," and "The Walking God." Anyway, that covers most of the bases...

Oh yes, and being an Eldarphile doesn't make a bit of difference. My two favourite components of the 'fluff' are the Eldar and the Imperium. ;)

Kage

Astner
30-08-2007, 19:37
Am I the only one that thinks the Emperor is a bit hyped up, I mean the fans worship him more than the Empire he commanded.

Astner
30-08-2007, 19:41
That's just the Space Marine Captain who the player's named 'God Emperor of Mankind'.
I found the pictures on the official site http://dawnofwar.filefront.com/file/God_Emperor_of_Mankind;75062

Kage2020
30-08-2007, 19:48
Am I the only one that thinks the Emperor is a bit hyped up, I mean the fans worship him more than the Empire he commanded.
No, no you're not.

Of course, that's kind of the point. :D

Kage

Captain Stern
30-08-2007, 20:15
I found the pictures on the official site http://dawnofwar.filefront.com/file/God_Emperor_of_Mankind;75062

Ah. The fact that his stats are identical to the Space Marine captains' :eyebrows: must have confused me then.

Kage2020
30-08-2007, 20:28
Aaaah... 40k wargame.

Kage

Astner
30-08-2007, 20:45
No, no you're not.

Of course, that's kind of the point. :D

Kage
Take a lookat this.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1299123&postcount=4
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1299158&postcount=6
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1303372&postcount=13

That's what I'm talking about. ;)

Astner
30-08-2007, 20:46
Ah. The fact that his stats are identical to the Space Marine captains' :eyebrows: must have confused me then.
They were lazy and changed the color of a commanders armor :D
But he didn't get his hair.

Kage2020
31-08-2007, 11:59
That's what I'm talking about. ;)
I would say that I'm surprised at that, but we've seen similar arguments expressed on these forums. (And, of course, similar counter-arguments...)

Kage

Astner
31-08-2007, 12:05
I would say that I'm surprised at that, but we've seen similar arguments expressed on these forums. (And, of course, similar counter-arguments...)

Kage
What I think is that, when it was said that he was possessed by the Chaos Gods, it's like being possessed by the Devil.
Horus just had some Chaos energy in him, just like Abaddon does--he isn't as powerful as a Chaos God himself.
- Or am I completely off track here?

Kage2020
31-08-2007, 12:34
For me, Astner? No, you're most definitely not off the track. While the Chaos Powers may have invested him with some of their power, I severely doubt it was all of it. At the best he was an avatar, and an avatar that contained the sometimes mutually incompatible energies of the Ruinous Powers.

Kage

Dalenator
31-08-2007, 12:34
OK, I don't know if this matters but going by this screenshot from the Dawn of War game, the Nightbringer looks more powerful than the God-Emperor of Mankind.



If you scroll the page down the Emperor has certain abilities....:cheese:
1) power that makes him invincible when you want.
2)He can be ressurected when he dies.
3) storm power that wipes enemy off the screen
4)can't be knocked over
5)attacks are faster then anyone else in the game
6) sword makes him hit harder

The nightbringer has some but are nothing compared to the Emperor.:cheese:

Astner
31-08-2007, 12:59
If you scroll the page down the Emperor has certain abilities....:cheese:
1) power that makes him invincible when you want.
2)He can be ressurected when he dies.
3) storm power that wipes enemy off the screen
4)can't be knocked over
5)attacks are faster then anyone else in the game
6) sword makes him hit harder

The nightbringer has some but are nothing compared to the Emperor.:cheese:
It also say that it is a fanmade mod :evilgrin: