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IkuTurso
26-08-2005, 22:59
is it cheesy to have a dragon in 2000-2500 point games?
from what i know when you ask tactics against dragons the answers are quite often "pray", yet i dont see that drgons would be fielded all that often?

m1s1n
26-08-2005, 23:31
Dragons are usually seen as targets for . . .well lots of things.
Essentially it is a point sink, and most people will tell you that it is not worth the points you put into them. There are some exceptions with Chaos Dragons, however it really depends on the rest of the army. If your dragon doesn't get a cannonball between the eyes on the first turn, sure--maybe they are worth it. Very mobile with great stats and a breath weapon. I don't know if that makes them cheesy--really the loss of character slots and the amount of points balance it out.

Lord of the Pit
26-08-2005, 23:57
Its not cheesy.

Some people dont like to play against armies with dragons at 2K though. Mostly because the dragon sucks up so many points, the rest of the army is not much of an army (Tzeentch dragons of course proving that point to the extreme, clocking in at about 810pts).

I once ran a Tzeentch mainly mortal army with a dragon at a 2K tournament, and didnt get any flack for fielding a 'cheesy' dragon. On the other hand, Im a very nice person ;)

I found it to be effective in about 60% of the cases. Vs a good oponent you will easily be sacrificed 'lambs for the slaughter', meaning that the rest of his army will attack the rest of your (small) army while your dragon destroy troops of little value.

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 02:31
In a 2500 point army or more, then sure, go ahead and take one. Otherwise, I wouldn't.

Griefbringer
27-08-2005, 10:59
from what i know when you ask tactics against dragons the answers are quite often "pray"

I would rather recommend big infantry blocks (dragons really have trouble tackliŽng those frontally) and big guns. Dragons are not very apt in dodging cannonballs.

Gyulkus Chaos Saurus
27-08-2005, 11:27
my advice: (from DoW) tread lightly, and carry a big gun.

fracas
27-08-2005, 11:37
depends on why you want to take one i guess. if you like the model and want to add it for fun and looks, great reason. if you think it will win you games, it probably won't.

Inquisitor Maul
27-08-2005, 12:49
I would rather recommend big infantry blocks (dragons really have trouble tackliŽng those frontally) and big guns. Dragons are not very apt in dodging cannonballs.


That's why you give the guy upon it the golden eye of tzeentch and the staff of change :p :cheese:

proximity
27-08-2005, 13:57
By default you're looking at about 300+ less points of, generally, core - which most people will mark you down for.
I dont know anyone whos played against a 2k army with a dragon in it that didnt mark someone down a bit for it :o

highmarshalllissus
08-04-2006, 20:45
please strike me down if im wrong but in a 2500 point battle i guess most people wud spend the 500 points (between 2000 and 2500) on a few select units, rather than more core, for example 500 points would buy me (a high elf player) a decent unit of pheonix guard and a few bolt throwers. so if you look at it that way you gotta think wud my dragon take out that/those units. cuz if your dragon comes in at 500 points (approx) then you've gotta take down 500 to break even. and lets be honest people severly under-rate dragons, yeah people can get lucky but ussually a dragon will inflict lots of pain, especially on weak troops en mass!!! ok sorry guys rant over!

highmarshalllissus
08-04-2006, 20:47
but for inspirational/cool modelness value there totally worth taking, hence why i field one!!!

ROCKY
08-04-2006, 23:07
I have never had the courage to put my chaos lord on a dragon. too easy to pick out, besides you do not getting awarded any armor saves for riding it (I mean come on! a barded horse gives you 5+armor save but a big bad scaly gecko doesn't?!) besides the armor save I get choices: My general can sacrifice a goon instead to die or I can choose to use my wardsave. while on a dragon you ward save is your "lifeline". and then there is always the point value :cries:

leeoaks
08-04-2006, 23:43
you do not getting awarded any armor saves for riding it (I mean come on! a barded horse gives you 5+armor save but a big bad scaly gecko doesn't?!)

why do u need an modifier an enhanted shield will give you a 2+ save and then gaze of the gods a 4+ward......so thats roll to hit, ranomise 2+save the 4+ward....not bad! and the bonus is a lord that flies can charge over units gets an extra 6 strength 6 attacks causes terror ignores ranks when flanking and just to put the icing on the cake.....two breath weapon attacks!


My general can sacrifice a goon instead to die or I can choose to use my wardsave. while on a dragon you ward save is your "lifeline". and then there is always the point value

on the roll of a 1 you get hit!

Major Defense
09-04-2006, 03:28
In a 2500 point army I often consider Asarnil (got the model) backing up the Book of Hoeth archmage. He's only 460 compared to a well equipped Prince on a dragon for 560ish. If I'm feeling really lucky (or playing a no-magic battle) I'll take Asarnil and the Prince and fill out the core with Silver Helms.

Flypaper
09-04-2006, 05:06
I mean come on! a barded horse gives you 5+armor save but a big bad scaly gecko doesn't?
A barded horse doesn't randomise shooting hits and have a six wound buffer. You're getting what's effectively a ward save out of said gecko. :p

Dragons are newbie choices, and I mean that in the nice sense (hence the spelling ;) ). They're big fun exciting lumps of death and they're easy on the wallet. Unfortunately, the armies they perform best against are similar newbie (in this case, model-light) armies, hence their reputation for cheese amongst a certain class of player.

At the cuthroat level, I've never seen a Dragon list that impressed me - even the Tzeench schtick seems highly overrated. One or two Dark Elf lists, of all armies, have looked OK, but other than that nothing...

They could be a good metagame choice against something like MSU cavalry, though, I guess. Unfortunately, the armies at the moment which are vulnerable to terror tests are also good at hiding in woods. :(

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-04-2006, 09:55
Dragons are not very apt in dodging cannonballs.


Actually, they are. I never found it to much of a problem avoiding artillery with my dragon. The only two times I lost it to shooting/magic was playing on a table with virtually no terrain.

That being said, dragons are no different from any other hammer unit really. The 500 odd points isn't really that bad when you compare it to the cost of a lord and a big unit of knights, and they fill roughly the same niche in the army. It just looks different cause it's all on a 50mm base, and of course, there is a few practical differences.

I haven't found dragons to be overpowered or anything though. I think they got them just about right(the elf ones at least, the Zombie one is a bit on the weak side, and the chaos one is a bit to much, but overall pretty close to where they, IMO, should be). They can be defeated by tactics, if you know what you are doing, and they can be defeated by virtually every army out there, without requirering you to tool up to do it(and if you do want to tool up, I'd recommend lots of infantry with static CR rather than guns).

Against experienced players they are much harder to get effective use out of, but I found that they actually produce some very entertaining games, as it really requires you to think, and personally I love both playing with, and against dragons. Certainly using one for a long time have helped me a lot in knowing how to counter one.

You just need to think a little outside the box and realise that actually killing it and jumping up and down on it's corpse might not be needed.

Steel_Legion
09-04-2006, 10:28
i know a guy whos entering a tournament with more than 1 dragon, thats al he said, i just hope i dont come up against him...

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-04-2006, 10:34
In a 2k tournament? So a HE lord and Arsanil. I'd say good luck to him, as I do believe he is going to need it. He is either going to have no magic defence, or two dragons with whimpy characters riding them(in stead of just one dragon with a whimpy character).

If it's a 3k+ tournament it have a better chance of succes I think.

Steel_Legion
09-04-2006, 10:57
this is the same guy i have never seen loose btw, the best i have had is a minor defeat, and i have never seen anyone get close to winning, so i think he knows what hes doing :)

ROCKY
09-04-2006, 13:51
why do u need an modifier an enhanted shield will give you a 2+ save and then gaze of the gods a 4+ward......so thats roll to hit, ranomise 2+save the 4+ward....not bad! and the bonus is a lord that flies can charge over units gets an extra 6 strength 6 attacks causes terror ignores ranks when flanking and just to put the icing on the cake.....two breath weapon attacks!



on the roll of a 1 you get hit!
Luckily the number "one" on the dice have avoided me for so long:evilgrin: as for the flanking yes it is awesome...but one good shot from a great cannon and your are royally screwed.:eek:

leeoaks
09-04-2006, 14:58
great cannon and your are royally screwed.
there is a 1 in 6 chance of the cannon not wounding the dragon.
there is also the thing of guessing correctly not misfiring or overshooting.
why there is still only a one in 6 chance of the cannon killing a dragon in one whack!
one great cannon....not so scary now!

so not really! also you fly use this to avoid the cannons or only be visable to one at any one time! not that hard to do really!

Grand Warlord
09-04-2006, 15:06
From a personal standpoint I would feild a monster in a bigger game mainly because I want to throw out other targets for warmachines ... but I would yes.

ROCKY
09-04-2006, 15:28
there is a 1 in 6 chance of the cannon not wounding the dragon.
there is also the thing of guessing correctly not misfiring or overshooting.
why there is still only a one in 6 chance of the cannon killing a dragon in one whack!
one great cannon....not so scary now!

so not really! also you fly use this to avoid the cannons or only be visable to one at any one time! not that hard to do really!
You OBVIOUSLY do not know the trigger happy people that I know, from what I have seen they never missed. One guy missed the unit and hit a caddie, so that does not count. Now if exlateds could ride dragons THEN I would be fielding them, Give the exalted the MoT and the golden eye and a enchanted shield and biting blade and we are set! plus the model will only be around 580 points!:D

leeoaks
09-04-2006, 18:33
it doesnt matter how good at guessing you are.....you have to land a ball before the dragon...then there is a chance of misfiring! then unless you hit the 3 inch target you have to roll again....1 in 6 chance of messing up again! maybe you are so bothered by them you forget they are very hit or miss ,you have to be daring for a dragon to work! just think of the odds when you face a cannon there is a varience of 8 inches....this is on the guess assuming you dont misfire, random.


missed the unit and hit a caddie

where i play you wouldnt stick a caddie behind a unit by himself where he can be nailed, kinda common sense really!

highmarshalllissus
09-04-2006, 20:13
i know this is a thred about dragons but what kinda experience have people (especially high elf players!!!) had of fielding griffons instead? i mean, prince on dragon = base cost of 125 + 320 wheras prince on griffon = base cost 125 + 200. 315 looks emiediatly more manageable?! discuss!!!

ROCKY
09-04-2006, 23:51
i know this is a thred about dragons but what kinda experience have people (especially high elf players!!!) had of fielding griffons instead? i mean, prince on dragon = base cost of 125 + 320 wheras prince on griffon = base cost 125 + 200. 315 looks emiediatly more manageable?! discuss!!!
1) 200+125= 325
2) this (as you pointed out) is a dragon thread
3) griffons/hippogriffs/manticores are cheaper and cause terror but are easier to kill than dragons. The lack the power and ranged weapons that the dragons have and dragons have a 3+armor save and they IMHO just llok cooler.

highmarshalllissus
10-04-2006, 18:21
i guess. but 200 popints goes a long way!!!
sorry for bad maths!!!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
10-04-2006, 18:26
Go for it. As long as you realise it's going to eat a lot of points, and take that into consideration when crafting the remainder of your force.

I use one in 2,000. As well as a Manticore, and 2 Hydras. Theres a lot of dirty things Dragons can do you know. For example, as a Large Target with Flying, they can both see....and CHARGE.... over enemy units, allowing you a naughty flank or rear charge everytime. Nuts as they are, Dragons will still struggle against a full ranked unit!

MeepoSose
11-04-2006, 04:20
I ran an Elf lord on a dragon with a null stone once. That worked incredibly well as I hunted down and challenged every tooled out Dwarf I could find and none of their magic or rune items worked. IIRC, the resulting overkill even caused a unit or two to flee and get run down.

ROCKY
12-04-2006, 15:18
i guess. but 200 popints goes a long way!!!
sorry for bad maths!!!
I did not mean to sound harsh:p But indeed as you point out griffons/manticores can be effective if you want terror and CHEAP flying monster.

Elector on GRIFFON:
Griffon: 200points
Elector: 80
Items:
AoMI= 30points
HR= 45points
GW/lance
total
361ish points, not bad!

highmarshalllissus
12-04-2006, 18:07
haha, no offence taken. i dont actually have a griffon but to convert a HE prince upon 1 id have to buy the empire "elector count?" on griffon and then put my dude on it!!! pretty much same money but hey!!!

ROCKY
12-04-2006, 18:50
High elf prince on a griffon can be VERY dangerous, give him a wards save, lots of armor, and a lance, and possibly even the fusil (S3 breath weapon) then you got a fast cheap dragon.

althathir
12-04-2006, 18:55
take one if want to, Most players aren't going to mind that much esp. if you tell them ahead of time. having in 2000 pts really amounts to putting all your eggs in one basket

thommo
12-04-2006, 20:38
I'm contemplating taking one in my Wood Elf list - i've consistently run on a list with 3 units of glade guard, 3 units of dryads, a unit of waywatchers, some glade riders, wardancers and a treeman...then a mix of heroes / lvl 1 magic users....this list has worked and consistently draws against good opponents, but, apart from the treeman, it's had nothing that can take on a decent "hard" character ... i'm gonna throw in a highborn on a dragon at the expense of some magic defense and some glade riders and see what happens!?! :confused:

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 01:25
I'm contemplating taking one in my Wood Elf list - i've consistently run on a list with 3 units of glade guard, 3 units of dryads, a unit of waywatchers, some glade riders, wardancers and a treeman...then a mix of heroes / lvl 1 magic users....this list has worked and consistently draws against good opponents, but, apart from the treeman, it's had nothing that can take on a decent "hard" character ... i'm gonna throw in a highborn on a dragon at the expense of some magic defense and some glade riders and see what happens!?! :confused:
No offense, but woodie dragons are very...sucky. If you want a tough badass and cheap get a treeman.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-04-2006, 08:05
High elf prince on a griffon can be VERY dangerous, give him a wards save, lots of armor, and a lance, and possibly even the fusil (S3 breath weapon) then you got a fast cheap dragon.


The problem with that is, that unlike the dragon, the griff is actually pretty easy to shoot down. T5 without a save, and even basic bows is dangerous.

shadowprince
13-04-2006, 08:14
no but it is very risky, as the most dragon require a lord so thats a bundle load of points, and it forces all your tactics to revolve around the dragon.

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 14:40
Since we are here, I would actually recommend a distraction character, such as a beast master on manitcore, give him the armor that gives him 2+, a lance and thats 259points, AMA ZA ZING!

shadowprince
13-04-2006, 17:40
also only dark elfs have beastmasters

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 18:44
also only dark elfs have beastmasters
I know that! Plus. I think they are the only ones lef with manticores. Didn;t chaos have one?:confused:

HalfEvil333
13-04-2006, 19:08
Chaos used to have a chimera in the Ravening Hordes list, but they decided to drop it in the Hordes book. A shame really, the chimera could have had some interesting rules.

GranFarfar
13-04-2006, 22:19
As some people have pointed out, a cannon can make short work of a dragon. But alot, most races actually, lacks such firepower. Caught unprepared I find flying strong monsters with lords a bit hard to handle.
And unprepared is what you usually are when one is fielded if you ask me.

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 23:52
Thats why I like the beast-tamer thing, cause he is not that expensive and you will not worry about your general (as he will be on the ground somewhere). the only item that I can say I have SEEN help a mounted lord is the eye of Tzeentch, 3+ward save? thats awesome!

highmarshalllissus
15-04-2006, 13:44
As some people have pointed out, a cannon can make short work of a dragon. But alot, most races actually, lacks such firepower. Caught unprepared I find flying strong monsters with lords a bit hard to handle.
And unprepared is what you usually are when one is fielded if you ask me.

please correct me if im wrong but as far as i know the only two races that widely use "cannons" are empire and dwarves.

mageith
15-04-2006, 14:15
is it cheesy to have a dragon in 2000-2500 point games?
from what i know when you ask tactics against dragons the answers are quite often "pray", yet i dont see that drgons would be fielded all that often?
It would be cheesy if Dragons were as tough as you say.

Dragons can bring in a third Terror causer which is tough against some armies.

Dragons can bring in a third rare-like model which seems like a lot in a 2000 point game.

Dragons can rank up skirmishers from a long distance so they can be flanked more easily.

Dragons don't hide so well.

Dragons tend to take the General too far away from his troops.

An army with a Dragon can soon turn into melted cheese if the Dragon is killed early.

In short, a dragon in a small game is a sucker's play IMO. Now at 3000 points when you can leave your general at home and have the dragon go bother the enemy, it makes more sense, though he's probably still a little overpriced.

Mage Ith

mageith
15-04-2006, 14:16
please correct me if im wrong but as far as i know the only two races that widely use "cannons" are empire and dwarves.
I take two cannons in my Dogs of War army and everyone I've seen play one also takes at least one.

And of course, the Dogs can hire out to anybody.

Chaos has a helcannon. Does that count?

mageith
15-04-2006, 14:21
As some people have pointed out, a cannon can make short work of a dragon. But alot, most races actually, lacks such firepower. Caught unprepared I find flying strong monsters with lords a bit hard to handle.
And unprepared is what you usually are when one is fielded if you ask me.
What does a dragon do to you? Do you let him get behind you? Do you let him terrorize troops away from your general? Most armies have a big thing, so you should always have something (s) that can be used against big things. If a dragon is in the game, you may need to adjust your strategy. What army do you play?

As a last resort, join the Boy Scouts! Be Prepared.

Mage Ith

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-04-2006, 15:12
As I keep saying, you don't need a cannon to combat a dragon. In fact, you don't need anything special at all to fight big monsters. Well, outside of CR of course. I found that the biggest danger to my giant isn't enemy warmachines. It takes quite a few shots to kill a giant, and often they are easy to kill(oh, and don't bother shooting at a dragon with a hellblaster if it's not in shot range. Odds are you will blow it up, and still not hurt the dragon).

However, getting bogged down in combat and ranked and flanked really hurts. It's no fun taking break test on your 575 point dragon.

It does take a lot of planning, but if you can set it up so that you can counter charge no matter where the dragon attacks, you have gone a long way. Or at least you can try and direct it to take the charge you want it to make, letting you counter it with something else.

Thats how I defeated dragons the times I faced them, and wasn't using on my self.