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Str10_hurts
11-04-2005, 18:24
Nazguire said:
"The Wraithlords in my opinion destroy the image of an Eldar force. They (Eldar) are meant to be fast, lithe, agile and offensive, not lumbering forward shooting as they move slowly and then with their superior physical strength and toughness hold up 10x their number"

Wow Imagin a new type of wraith lord: T6 S8 WS4or5 I5 A3(4) Sv3+, and fleet of foot. (guns: D-cannon and short ranged weapons.24" max)

This would make a great unit that fits the fluff.

Wraith guard: T4 W2 S5 A2or3 Sv3+ fleet of foot (guns:flamers, fusionblasters. range 18" max

This is just a idea: would eldar improve fluff and gameplay?
(note: see the changes more as guide lines)

worldshatterer
12-04-2005, 00:35
A wraithlord has always been just the Eldar take on a dreadnought . Its always been represented as slow and tough, so it would be breaking with long standing tradition to make it into something else, which seems a bit of a fluff heresy for a unit/model thats been around since rogue trader. Likewise wraithguard have had the wraithcannon since they were invented, it is also part of the fluff just give it a half decent range, but make the wraiths t4 s4 i1 w2 and they'd be fine with their points cost as is .

My idea is to expand the range of wraith units to include faster ones such as the hounds of ynnead-

http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=467

these can actually keep up with a mobile army, and would present efficient tactical choices for doing eldar wraithunit based forces

hallon_apl
12-04-2005, 00:58
I would like those changes, but mostly because I'm one of those "the eldar should pay for the T8" guys.

I would like to start an Iyanden list were it not for the wraithlord being broken in my opinion.

Your proposed change would be a good alternative.

worldshatterer
12-04-2005, 01:09
the wraithlord isn't broken . it dies plenty easy if you shoot it with the right guns, and is about as much use as a fish with a bicycle in a mobile eldar army . it maims unbalanced armies, or n00bs who get distacted and fire at the falcons instead . whenever i field mine vs veteran opponents with a sensible amount of firepower it goes down pretty rapidly . the wraithlord should probably be a 0-1 choice in armies outside iyanden, but i doubt gw would want to limit their sales in the name of game balance so that ain't gonna happen .

Trunks
18-04-2005, 06:18
The Wraithlord was actually quite fast by comparison to normal troops in the 2nd edition rules before we got restricted to everyone having the same movement in 3rd edition.

That is what killed how it fits into the army. The lack of the movement stat in 3rd/4th edition.

it's durability makes perfect sense according to the background of the eldar army if you have read the background.

lord_blackfang
03-05-2005, 18:24
Most armies could argue that, going by the fluff, they should get something with T8. Why are the Eldar the only one who actually get it? (don't you dare mention C'tan)

And I don't recally Wraithlords ever being portrayed as slow and tough; tough maybe (as tough as Wraithbone gets, anyway... why are they tougher than Main Battle Tanks??) but certainly not slow. More like a giant aspect warrior. l33t ninja skillz included.

Aquila
05-05-2005, 04:21
Yeah. In almost all the old fluff, the Wraithlord was pretty damn agile. It could move like an Eldar. I suppose it's alright how it is... what it really needs is a limit per point total. Nothing gets me angrier than seeing 3 of them in a 500 point battle. Same goes for Carnifexes though.

Wraithguard, on the other hand, need some help. With 12" guns, you're forced to footing it across the entire field, meaning most of the time they'll get one shot off before they get slaughtered. A range increase would do it for me. Right now, you just can't justify the points and wasting an elites slot for them.

the_night_reaper
08-05-2005, 21:59
I think they are good as they are except wraithguard

If you compare wraithguard to their space marine counterpart the terminaters they are basicly the same amount of points. the wraithguard are just as fast but can't deep strike. Have worse saves. 1+toughness, they're weaker in combat, they don't have power weapons, they don't have invulnerable saves they do have wraithsight so you haveto pay for the warlock or risk losing the opportunity to do anything for that turn.

Gub
25-05-2005, 15:17
I agree. Wraithlords are so broken with toughness 8. They need t9, so your puny heavy bolters aren't enough to hurt it.

You need strength 6 to hurt a falcon, so why not for a wraithlord made of pure wraithbone?

lord_blackfang
25-05-2005, 15:36
With a Falcon, it at least helps if you can get behind it. Same with Dreads and almost every other vehicle. 'cept WLs of course. But hey, Eldar are special!

Anvils Hammer
25-05-2005, 19:01
i think the wriath lord should be a mini version of the eldar revenant titan, humanoid shaped, fast and agile and dificult to destroy.

they should make the modle have jump pack type things and count as having a jump pack, they should leave the toughness as it is.

athamas
25-05-2005, 21:22
if thay did that, it would be very cool, but then ppl would maon, as eldar would have a very tough fast moving unit...

Kahadras
26-05-2005, 02:00
Eldar are not ment to be tough. Looking at everything that GW have done over the years toughness is not something that the Eldar are good at. They use stuff like holofields and energy shields to get around the fact that there vehicles are light and manuverable and therefore does not have much in the way of armour. I would like to see the Wraithlord become less tough but can some form of holofield to protect it and to be slightly faster.

Kahadras

grizzly ruin
28-05-2005, 19:47
I agree. Wraithlords are so broken with toughness 8. They need t9, so your puny heavy bolters aren't enough to hurt it.

You need strength 6 to hurt a falcon, so why not for a wraithlord made of pure wraithbone?


i think the wriath lord should be a mini version of the eldar revenant titan, humanoid shaped, fast and agile and dificult to destroy.

they should make the modle have jump pack type things and count as having a jump pack, they should leave the toughness as it is.


:rolleyes:

Why does every Eldar thread end up like this?


Fine, make it all of those things.

And let it cost 250 points, since when you're done with it it will just be a walking verion of a monolith or a land raider.

worldshatterer
28-05-2005, 19:51
what exactly is your problem with us eldar players Grizzly Ruin?

grizzly ruin
28-05-2005, 20:11
what exactly is your problem with us eldar players Grizzly Ruin?

I don't mean to come off so harsh.

It does seem that there is no reading of a thread that concerns Eldar and what upgrades that they deserve that doesn't end up with flyng wraithlords, rending weapons for everyone, Avatars that can swallow Bloodthirsters whole, etc.

There only ever seem to be a very precious few voices of reason who are just looking for the Eldar army list to have the balance it deserves.

Which I whole heartedly agree with.

Usually the majority idea is that the Eldar are so special they should just have the best of everything, all of the time - and have no drawbacks to boot.

All of this based on fluff, which is inherantly meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

Otherwise you can take your fleet of footing wraithlords and avatars and run them up against the movie marines.

worldshatterer
28-05-2005, 22:45
i must admit i'm fairly happy with the eldar list as it is, the balance issues in it are mainly centred around some fairly useless units and some quibbling over points values .

The wraithlord doesn't fixing, and peoples idea of making it more fluffy seem to involve taking something people say is broken, and showing them what broken really is . fluff is open to so much interpretation that it makes a poor basis for anything other than an armies theme .

ntin
29-05-2005, 01:14
I think Wraith Lords are fine but it wouldn't hurt to have a 1 wraith lord for every 750pts, I have played games were Eldar players field 3 in a very small list min maxing guardians. A point limitation would be a nice middle ground for both extremes in my opinion.

TomKamakazi
29-05-2005, 02:11
It's all about the weapons you take.
A wraithlord is not so hard to take down, toughness 8 doesn't stand up well to a five man scout squad with sniper rifles or even a dev squad with missile launchers.

Dreads are roughly the same point cost by the time you buy the obligitory heavy weapon for the wraithlord, and they would be a complete pain in the **** if you haven't taken any heavy weapons or powerfists.

The main difference is that a wraithlord is more predictable in how many hits it will take. A dread may be Shaken or stuned a few times and com back for more, it may go down to the first wayward multi-laser shot. A wraithlord will die after three wounds.

That being said, I still think It needs a point hike of about 25 points

Incognito
29-05-2005, 06:02
Nazguire said:
"The Wraithlords in my opinion destroy the image of an Eldar force. They (Eldar) are meant to be fast, lithe, agile and offensive, not lumbering forward shooting as they move slowly and then with their superior physical strength and toughness hold up 10x their number"

Wow Imagin a new type of wraith lord: T6 S8 WS4or5 I5 A3(4) Sv3+, and fleet of foot. (guns: D-cannon and short ranged weapons.24" max)

This would make a great unit that fits the fluff.

Wraith guard: T4 W2 S5 A2or3 Sv3+ fleet of foot (guns:flamers, fusionblasters. range 18" max

This is just a idea: would eldar improve fluff and gameplay?
(note: see the changes more as guide lines)

IMO, stats like those put the F and the U back into fluff for Eldar opponents.

Edit: Well said, Grizzly, btw...

Solarc
29-05-2005, 13:40
The stat line for the Wraithlord is fine. I think that their availabilty should be upped though... more difficult for armies to put one on the field.

1) Their base point cost should go up 50. Consequently, the cost of a Wraithguard should drop by 5 points each. This means that Iyanden can still get the full squad of WG + WL for the same amount of points. Very impotant since we are still working within a realtive point cap, you don't want to short change Iyanden type Eldar forces.

2) They either have to be 0-1 or have some kind of point limit (1 per 1000 points would be minimum number... could go higher, depending on testing and other stuff.) or something like that so they don't appear in multiple numbers in small point games. It's really sad that with a vanilla eldar army list, you can take 3 @ 500 points... and have a legal force. That's an extreme example, but you know what I'm getting at. An Eldar player should be able to take a trait or option to get the Iyanden list (WG become troops, ect., ect.)

grizzly ruin
01-06-2005, 23:02
Edit: Well said, Grizzly, btw...

Thanks, there only seem to be a few of us holding down the fort. :p

WLBjork
13-06-2005, 20:37
I still think the problem with the WL isn't the T8 as much as the 3+ save. If the save was removed then the biggest discrepency between the WL and it's Dreadnought counterpart would be removed.

Alternatively, turn the WL into a fully-fledged MC and pay the dang points for it - I know I would.

blitz589
13-06-2005, 20:44
The wraithlord is the eldars "powerhouse" It can take hits, and dish em out, and its so good because of its price, it cost so much to get a good eldar army, and it isnt hard to kill if you have rending weapons.

Isambard
14-06-2005, 11:26
Eldar players:

Next time you play with a Wraithlord, ask your opponent if he would prefer it to be T7 with 4W for the same price. If they say yes, give it a go, and tell me what you think.

I have found it works very well, and the first time I tried it one was taken down by a Bolt Pistol.....

athamas
14-06-2005, 11:37
the reason ppl dont like a T8 WL is that your basic marine cant hurt it!

this anoys alot of marine players, as they expect to ba able to kill everything!

what about gaurd, all their basic weapons cant hurt it, yet they dont complain, instead they just shoot it, or tie it up in combat!

Sojourner
14-06-2005, 11:44
Indeed. Give Wraithlords Fleet, drop their toughness, and equip them with either a holofield or a Webway portal. Striding across the battlefield in full view doesn't fit the Eldar way of warfare.

lockmaster55
15-06-2005, 16:32
Give Wraithlords Fleet, drop their toughness, and equip them with either a holofield or a Webway portal.
But do you not see that having a high toughness unit IS quite in keeping with the eldar. Afterall, they are made of wraithbone, the strongest material in the universe, and they house the most precious of eldar items, a spirit stone, and what is more, it is the spirit stone of a great warrior. The eldar would protect this beyond anything. Anyway, T8, conisder the following compared to armour 12 (of a dreadnought). T8 Can be hurt by st 5 weapons (yes, hello heavy botlers, tau basic gun, etc.). 12 armour is not. T8 can be hurt by sniper weapons, and other 'toughness specific' models. 12 armour is not.
Also, dread is strength 10 in combat, wraithlord is 8
Now, i am not saying that the wraithlord has nothing wrong with it, but if anything, it only needs a small points increase, not a Toughness drop, this would make it cannon fodder for most armies.

Nazguire
16-06-2005, 02:33
But do you not see that having a high toughness unit IS quite in keeping with the eldar. Afterall, they are made of wraithbone, the strongest material in the universe, and they house the most precious of eldar items, a spirit stone, and what is more, it is the spirit stone of a great warrior. The eldar would protect this beyond anything. Anyway, T8, conisder the following compared to armour 12 (of a dreadnought). T8 Can be hurt by st 5 weapons (yes, hello heavy botlers, tau basic gun, etc.). 12 armour is not. T8 can be hurt by sniper weapons, and other 'toughness specific' models. 12 armour is not.
Also, dread is strength 10 in combat, wraithlord is 8
Now, i am not saying that the wraithlord has nothing wrong with it, but if anything, it only needs a small points increase, not a Toughness drop, this would make it cannon fodder for most armies.



Funny, I always thought that it had Str 10, considering its base strength is S6 or St5 (can't remember exactly) and has two dread close combat weapons...

lockmaster55
16-06-2005, 12:32
Nope, it does not have 2 dread c.c. It's weapons simply augment its strength to 8 (note this means that unlike other monsterous creatures, it cannot role 2d6 armour penetration)

Str10_hurts
19-06-2005, 10:53
wow havent been here in weeks. Nice replies guy's!

I'll get to you later on this matter.

Drasriath
12-10-2006, 04:51
Wraithlords have been the way they are or similiar to the way they are for many, many version of the game. They've always been a touch more powerful than regular dreadnaughts. The T8 is not an issue, unless you're not smart enough to take anti-tank weapons, or terminators.

By the fluff, they're fine as they are, everything I've read save for one rather poorly done story in Let the Galaxy Burn has spoken of them as neigh unstoppable killing machines. I think what may go against the fluff is non-Iyanden armies making such widespread use of them. Afterall, the act of taking a soul-stone from the infinity circut is akin to graverobbing to the Eldar.

By the balance, I think they're a little overpowered for their points cost, but there's no use whining about it. They're going to be more expensive in the upcoming edition, so why complain now? You've played against them at 75 points for years. I'm sure you can stand another month. And, incidently, wraithguard becoming T6 is nothing new either. In second edition they had ARMOR 10 (6+ to penetrate, just like it will be in the new 'dex.), 2 wounds and their wraithcannons killed outright on a 1-3 and on a 4-6 teleported the hit unit. Vehicles automatically took a penetrating hit, and they were STILL 35 points.

Hellebore
12-10-2006, 05:37
I find the concept of the eldar way of war laughable.

If you can create slow lumbering but hard to kill fire platforms, you aren't just going to ignore them because it doesn't fit with your theme :rolleyes:

No wonder the eldar are a dying race with a stupid attitude like that.

And 'Fluffwise' wraithlords don't conflict at all. Wraithbone is harder than adamantium and is in fact the hardest substance in the galaxy. Thus a wraithlord being T8 (which is what this entire thread is really about) is entirely in keeping with the 'fluff' of wraithbone.

Toughness and wounds have always been better than AV. The problem is not with the wraithlord, it is with the AV system and its insistance on not giving saves, and causing esoteric hits on units that no other unit can be affected by.

T7 carnifexes with 5W are scary, so what?


Monstrous creatures:

1-2: Dazed. The creature suffers from Entanglement for the next turn (seeing as how pinning usually doesn't work on monstrous creatures).
3: Weapon broken. A weapon chosen by the firer is destroyed. If the MC has no weapon, it loses a Wound instead.
4-5: Injured. The creature roars in pain, ichor gushing from its wounds. The MC reduces its Wounds characteristic by 1. If it reaches 0 Wounds, it dies.
6: Fatal Strike. With a bloodcurdling shriek, the creature collapses to the ground, the shot having penetrated whatever passes for its brain, or exploded through its chest. The MC suffers instant death.

The reason the list is set up this way, is because at the moment, a MC always suffers a wound, so this should be the majority of the damage table. Destroying a weapon won't be THAT easy, because they can generally move them around a bit (man will the Avatar be pissed if his Suin Dellae gets blown off ), thus the 1:6 chance.

Dazed is a way to effectively Stun the creature, like a tank, which otherwise would not be affected. A creature would probably not get Shaken, because a glancing blow would do more to a MC than a vehicle.

I would also say that MC and Vehicles would use the same S/T chart, because MCs are tougher than normal creatures (if you look at the chart in the first post, there is no extra '6' to wound - thus a S4 weapon cannot hurt a T7 vehicle/MC, the extra 6 I see as really just that super lucky shot that hits a squidgy bit, which most vehicles and MCs don't have).

Vehicle Damage
1=crew shaken
2=crew stunned
3=weapon destroyed
4=immobilised
5=vehicle destroyed
6=vehicle Explodes

Monstrous Creature Damage
1=Creature Dazed
2=Creature Dazed
3=Weapon Broken
4=Injured
5=Injured
6=Fatal Strike

Hellebore

Helicon_One
12-10-2006, 20:11
the act of taking a soul-stone from the infinity circut is akin to graverobbing to the Eldar.
This.

Don't think of the Wraithlord as an Eldar Dreadnought, think of it as an Eldar golem, or Frankenstein's Monster. Dragging one of your old warriors back from beyond the dead, and plonking their spirit into a giant cold body is going to be a hugely unsettling experience for the old spirit. That's why Wraithlords are slow moving and tough, and that contrast with the 'swift but fragile' nature of the still-breathing Eldar fits their fluff perfectly.

Tim

Sandlemad
12-10-2006, 22:49
As reagrds speed, IIRC there was a mention in an old eldar story of a spider-legged wraithlord. Could have been referring to some sort of titan but if it was a wraithlord then that's justification for a relatively fast one. Just throwing that out there.

Anyone know the story I'm talking about? It's seen through the eyes of a warlock and has the Avatar fight (and kill:)) a Keeper of Secrets.
Also, should I ever start eldar, that idea is being done, regardless of previous fluff mentions.

RampagingRavener
12-10-2006, 23:28
I don't get the idea that T8 is broken on the Wraithlord. They're incredibally fragile when you hit them with high strenght/low Ap weapons (anything Missile Launcher grade or higher) or massed rending attacks. Combined with only 3 wounds, they die pretty fast once if you concentrate on them for a turn or so.

Though, I think they could do with being a little faster-adding Fleet to them wouldn't be too bad-if you want to fleet, then thats less anti-tank fire coming towards you, so it seems like a fair tradeoff, and it means the WL isn't restricted to being a countercharge/firebase unit and can take a more active role.

For what its worth, I don't collect Eldar, so this is relativly un-biased.

Lancaster
13-10-2006, 05:00
I don't get the idea that T8 is broken on the Wraithlord. They're incredibally fragile when you hit them with high strenght/low Ap weapons (anything Missile Launcher grade or higher) or massed rending attacks. Combined with only 3 wounds, they die pretty fast once if you concentrate on them for a turn or so.

Though, I think they could do with being a little faster-adding Fleet to them wouldn't be too bad-if you want to fleet, then thats less anti-tank fire coming towards you, so it seems like a fair tradeoff, and it means the WL isn't restricted to being a countercharge/firebase unit and can take a more active role.

For what its worth, I don't collect Eldar, so this is relativly un-biased.

Yes to killable, and that seems to be forgotten by eldar players the first time they fight necrons, as they seem to think very little of the Gaussing ability, untill they lose all three wounds in one round of firing from a squad of Warriors :)

No to the fleet, they are supposed to be lumbering behemoths, not ballerinas.

10th clancannach rangers
13-10-2006, 09:12
Why make them a vehicle? They surely could qualify, in this thread Ihave been told several times that they are made of the strongest material in the universe.

elros
27-11-2006, 19:50
Excuse me, but maybe we're missing the point here - just because a wraithlord and wraithguard are made by the Eldar, it does not meen they are Eldar.
A Wraithlord is a revered tomb of a dead spirit, noble and almost indestructable. The same with Wraithguard, slow noble warriors that are soldiering on, they aren't harlequins stuch on laughter gas, encased in machines made of elastic which can jump. War Walkers are slightly differnt, but no walker in 40k can do fancy jumps and sprint, yet have think armour that can't be moved.

Wraiths are ment to be tough and slow as I read the fluff. - Anyway they aren't going to change any time soon.

Sybaronde
29-11-2006, 21:30
Nope, it does not have 2 dread c.c. It's weapons simply augment its strength to 8 (note this means that unlike other monsterous creatures, it cannot role 2d6 armour penetration)

What substance are you abusing?

Wraithlords have Strength 10, count as being monstrous creatures and can roll 2D6 when rolling for armor penetration.

Onwards to the thread: In my opinion, the Wraithlords and Wraithguard do not defy Eldar fluff in any way. Sure they're not ultra-fast and ultra-frail like your basic guardian or aspect warrior, but then again, they're not Eldar in flesh and blood. They just so happen to be solid wraithbone without any vital organs. As for speed, they can move 6" and fire two heavy weapons at the same time, which is more then most other armies can boast. They may not move 12" or 24", have striped backdrops and funky manga expressions, but they're still relatively fast compared to anything with similar arnaments.

As for mass availability, this is not a problem with the Wraithlord unit, but a problem that is inherent in the Force Organization Chart system. For example, you can field 3 Land Raider Crusaders in one 1000 points army if you're Black Templars, or 3 Railheads in said army if you're Tau.

Hellebore:

Imho, you're making rules for the wrong reasons. Vehicles are already ridiculously frail and, to be honest, make for pitiful excuses of units in the game. Try watching any of my Tau vs Nid games and you'll see 3 out of 5 vehicles doing nothing but moving due to the amount of shaken results out there. If MCs got it too, it would be reason enough to abandon them completely. They would only perform marginally each game, where their worth would only apply in 1 - 2 turns.

As for vehicles, I think they should convert to normal 'creature' stat-lines, with some '-' values here and there (I wouldn't consider a Chimera to be eligible for a WS value, for example). It would make them tougher, and rightly so. To make an example, during WWII, a Tiger tank was noted for having deflected over 980 shots (AT rounds, afaik). I'm not gonna advocate realism into this game, because we all know how that goes, but still, I think it improves the game system if vehicles inherit from the MC rules like the Wraithlord did rather then the other way around.

Edit: I didn't not notice until now, but wtf threadmancing. "I agree."