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unheilig
29-08-2007, 12:41
I wouldn't expect any major changes to the rules concepts of warhammer or warhammer 40,000.

why?

BECAUSE THEY WORK.

AND, a drastic change in the format of either game would kill it... even if it was "better" by the standards of gamers who think Focus or Fury are some sort of tactical masterpiece of rules design.

scratchbuilt
29-08-2007, 12:41
GW focused on the models the stores and the background products such as novels and so on (which are the things they do best) but let other companies make the games (which they don't do so well anymore)? The models and stores are what make them their money, and it seems to me that it's been a long time since the games where made by someone who enjoyed what they do.

It's not such a crazy idea, dnd does something similar in that they let other companies use their rules for their games. If GW focused on stores models and books, they would be focusing on the most lucrative aspects, and discarding the part that takes the most development, and is a tad weak. The up and coming competitors often have better rules, but never have better background or rules. If GW sold other peoples games in their store, but these games where all set in the warhammer universe and used warhammer models, GW would make more money, and would totally dominate the store and model front, and be able to open more stores.

It was just that I was thinking of how GW has changed, it's clear that they are cutting back on the amount of games and rules they produce, instead focusing on models, novels and events.

scratchbuilt
29-08-2007, 12:41
They work in the same way a Robin Reliant works. I remember when GW used to put out new rules systems all the time, most of which where far better. But now they seem to see the rules as merely a vehicle for selling models and getting people into organized events.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. But if thats what they want, they might as well go all the way and license out the rule making which they seem to see as an unprofitable dead end, they'll be freed from the burden.

To clarify, I'm not comparing warhammer to its competitors, I'm comparing it to other GW games.

RevEv
29-08-2007, 21:02
GW make a greater profit from owning the rights to all its products - there is no questioning who owns what piece of IP, and there is little risk of 'falling out and taking the toys away'.

The cost to independant traders for GW products is higher than GW supply to their own stores, therefore the mark up on products for GW in their own stores is higher than to independents. Farming out the rules production to third party suppliers would reduce this profit.

As it is GW produce an excellent set of rules - I've looked at other rule sets and they are far less accessable than GW rules, even if the overall game can seem to be simplistic to the more fanatical wargamer.

Ailaros
29-08-2007, 21:19
GW indeed would make far more if they kept the rights to everything that they formed in plastic. Plus, it's way less risky.

As for the rule being bad, I disagree. Just because they aren't coming out with new rules every month doesn't mean it's bad, it means that it's settling down. Look at Blizzard for example. When they come out with a new game, the first year has a gazillion and a half patches, mostly to fix "balance issues". After awhile, the rules system gets more or less polished up, and you don't have to release major, internal, game changing things all that often.

GW is still the biggest wargame company for a reason. If confrontation and warseer were awesome compared to GW's complete crap, then they'd already have a way bigger portion of the marked by now.

scratchbuilt
29-08-2007, 22:24
I'm not impressed by other games either. But they do not compete with each other through game systems but through settings and models (which I'm not impressed with either). If the market was such that the smaller companies just competed through game systems, good ones would arise.

GW models get better and better. The rules have basically stopped. Yes Rogue trader was a mess, but it was exciting for new games, units and rule sets to be coming out every month. Nowadays, the new chaos codex comes out, with no new units. Instead the various legions are discarded, demons are discarded etc.

Griefbringer
30-08-2007, 08:34
But now they seem to see the rules as merely a vehicle for selling models

Which is probably one of the big reasons why they want to keep control of the rules - they can make changes and supplements that will boost sales of models.

Besides, the troubles of the lisenced party deciding to drop off would mean that GW would need to pick the game back themselves, or quickly find another company to take care of it - in both cases meaning plenty of hassle, expenses and delays in production.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-08-2007, 12:42
GW make a greater profit from owning the rights to all its products - there is no questioning who owns what piece of IP, and there is little risk of 'falling out and taking the toys away'.

The cost to independant traders for GW products is higher than GW supply to their own stores, therefore the mark up on products for GW in their own stores is higher than to independents. Farming out the rules production to third party suppliers would reduce this profit.

As it is GW produce an excellent set of rules - I've looked at other rule sets and they are far less accessable than GW rules, even if the overall game can seem to be simplistic to the more fanatical wargamer.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.... GW don't sell their product to their own stores. They just supply it when it's ordered (most of the time!).

Selling to the Indy store gets GW more profit, as they are only paying to produce and ship the kit, where as with their own stores, GW pay staff, insurance, rental, heating, water, lecky, training, well, everything.....

RevEv
30-08-2007, 13:54
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.... GW don't sell their product to their own stores. They just supply it when it's ordered (most of the time!).

Exactly - please note that I also said 'supply', however it still costs GW to put product in their stores.

I took it as read that GW have to pay overheads, as do independants, but the cost of supplying product to GW stores is, comparatively, less than the cost of the same product to independants (GW taking their pound of flesh at source).

Hope that clarifies my answer!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-08-2007, 16:28
But, but, it's not....

By supplying at a base cost to Indys and Webbys, GW make a certain level of profit, regardless of what price point the Indy then sells at.

In a GW store, the overall cost by the time the minis are sold is higher.

Nyahh. I think I've confused myself. Time for a fag and a DVD I think.

Bombot
30-08-2007, 17:17
It is likely like this:

GW make more profit per model by selling through an indie. However, by selling through their own stores, GW sell more minis overall and by this method they aim to increase total profit.

grickherder
30-08-2007, 23:47
But it isn't working. And hasn't been working except that the LOTR sales have masked the falling sales in WFB and 40k. It's also why they are closing the loss making stores-- to stop hemorrhaging money out of them. If GW was truly going after volume, they wouldn't be pricing their product in a way that reduces unit sales (and if you run the numbers, unit sales are down up to 30% depending on the region).

RevEv
31-08-2007, 14:49
It is likely like this:

GW make more profit per model by selling through an indie. However, by selling through their own stores, GW sell more minis overall and by this method they aim to increase total profit.

By selling in their own stores GW take the part of the cost to the consumer that the indy's add - GW still get profit on what they sell to Indys, but then get the extra bit that is added on.

If Indy's don't want to sell at the full price then that is their look out really - and it's soomething that, as we know, GW have frowned on and acted upon in the past.

yabbadabba
31-08-2007, 21:08
By selling in their own stores GW take the part of the cost to the consumer that the indy's add - GW still get profit on what they sell to Indys, but then get the extra bit that is added on.

If Indy's don't want to sell at the full price then that is their look out really - and it's soomething that, as we know, GW have frowned on and acted upon in the past.

At least the indies in Europe can set there own prices without fear of being "acted upon". I don't know what it is like in the states.

GW gets more sales through it's retail chain, but more profit through it's trade departments. As a publicly owned business it needs both to appear healthy.

RevEv
31-08-2007, 22:01
But it isn't working. And hasn't been working except that the LOTR sales have masked the falling sales in WFB and 40k. It's also why they are closing the loss making stores-- to stop hemorrhaging money out of them. If GW was truly going after volume, they wouldn't be pricing their product in a way that reduces unit sales (and if you run the numbers, unit sales are down up to 30% depending on the region).

From what I can make out many of the loss making stores were in the wrong place or were in a region that was well supplied with other stores (and I am prepared to be corrected on this as I do not have access to the full list of store closures). It makes good business sense and does not necessarily mean the end of GW, as many doom mongers here would have us believe.

The question that you have to ask is - what would attract you more? A small stand in an overstocked indy with no painted models nearby to inspire you and a sales man who doesn't really care for the product beyond the money it will bring in, or a fully stocked store that offers inspiration through well painted (even excellent painted in the case of one or two stores I have visited) figures and enthusiastic staff.

I, for one, prefer the latter and fully support GW's policy of keeping full control of their IP and product range. I have made friends with several indys, but they have never inspired me as much as getting to know the staff at the many GW stores that I have visited.

grickherder
01-09-2007, 00:07
I definitely get that the loss making stores are likely in bad locations or other factors that are as important. My point was this-- unit sales are down. Their current way of doing things hasn't been working for years and they would have shown a loss a lot sooner if not for LOTR. LOTR served to hide their problems but now it's unmasked.

They may need to make some radical changes about how they do business in order to turn things around. If they have another year like this last one, they could become a take over target. And you can't retain any control over your imagery and products when someone else has bought you out and kicked you out of management for incompetence.

RevEv
01-09-2007, 08:48
I think that they are making those radical changes - it just takes time to see the results, so be patient.

As for volume - looking at the excitement Apocalypse is causing on these boards (it's the most positive towards GW I've seen Warseer for ages) I feel that they may have found something positive for vets at last. Certainly there has been a shift back towards the 'good old days' in recent months with the return in influence of Jervis Johnson et al.

I feel loved again by GW