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Astner
29-08-2007, 11:41
I was wondering if soemone could make me a quick Hierarchy, of dieties--it don't have to be that specific, but just so I could grasp the concept of power in Warhammer 40K
Tier I (most powerful deities) - Tier V (less powerful dieties)

Tier I

Tier II

Tier III

Tier IV

Tier V

azimaith
29-08-2007, 11:41
If I were to have a go at it.

Tier 1: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle.
The Void Dragon, the Outsider, the Nightbringer.
Tier 2: Slannesh, The Deciever.
Tier 3: The Emperor, the Tyranid Hive Mind.
Tier 4: The Lesser Chaos Gods.
Tier 5: Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes.

Kage2020
29-08-2007, 11:41
The problem with this is that it really does depend on your interpretation, more so given the qualitative terms used by GW, as well as the varying bits of 'fluff' on the 'gods' (not least of which is whether they're a "god" or not). For example, as evidenced in a number of other threads at the moment, some people might not only view the Emperor, or some version of the Emperor, as not only a god but one that was able to stand up to the entire Chaos Pantheon. So that would, in their interpretation, but the Emperor above the Ruinous Powers.

Others might argue that the C'tan are more powerful, since their Great Plan might actually cut off the warp from the material realm. But is that below the Emperor and above the Chaos Powers, or above the Emperor?

What about that Ork Warlord that manage to all but kill the Emperor? Does that mean he's more powerful than the Emperor, therefore more powerful than the Chaos Powers and, therefore, only subservient to Gork and Mork? Does that put Gork and Mork at Tier I, the Warlord at Tier 2, the Emperor at Tier 3, the Chaos Powers at Tier IV and, of course, the Primarchs at Tier V? Does that also mean that the Bloody Handed Avatar is at Tier VI?

That sounds defeatist, though. If I were to respond within the context of the the thread, I would put the Chaos Gods at Tier I. The racial gods, which includes Gork and Mork, would be Tier II (Tier II.a for Gork and Mork, perhaps, at least at the moment). Tier II or Tier III might be the Greater Daemons of the Ruinous Powers, while Tier III might include the Lesser Powers of Chaos. Tier IV and below might be the lesser daemons of a pantheon.

The Emperor? Urgle. I tend to not even include him on the scale, nor the C'tan.

Kage

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 11:41
The Emperor? Urgle. I tend to not even include him on the scale, nor the C'tan.
Kage

Just ignoring your problem doesn't make it disappear Kage. The problem with the Emperor and C'Tan isn't a fluff problem per se but it's the Imperial and Necron fantics who are the problem because they tend to see their deities as being the most powerful. I agree with your Tier 1 Azimath. My only problem is the Emperor. I mean he was able to purge God-like Horus and his mastery over the warp was incredible. I would put him at Tier 2.5 with because he is more powerful than the Hivemind in my opinion but, I'm not sure how he would stack up against the weaker Chaos Deities or C'Tan. Also, what about the Old Ones? I would consider them as Deities because they created most, if not all the races.

MrGarm13
29-08-2007, 11:41
Isn't there are debate about who keeps the Warp from spilling over into the actual world? It was debated that either the Emporeror(SP?) or Tzeentch kept the warp in check.

Doesn't the Emporeror also direct the Astronomicon? Pretty impressive considering he's in a weird Coma/Dead state.

(A friend of mine found a 40K fluff bible from before 4th edition so all this may have changed since then.)

Arcanus
29-08-2007, 11:41
Isn't there are debate about who keeps the Warp from spilling over into the actual world? It was debated that either the Emporeror(SP?) or Tzeentch kept the warp in check.

Doesn't the Emporeror also direct the Astronomicon? Pretty impressive considering he's in a weird Coma/Dead state.

(A friend of mine found a 40K fluff bible from before 4th edition so all this may have changed since then.)

The Emperor's body is in a coma but his spirit is in the warp and called the Star Child.

MrGarm13
29-08-2007, 11:41
The Emperor's body is in a coma but his spirit is in the warp and called the Star Child.


Ah okay.

Keep in mind that the Outsider can disrupt the Hive Mind, so he's got to be powerful.

A thought occurs: What if the Tyranids are controlled by a rogue C'tan that went biological instead of Mechanical? It's the kind of twist that GW would throw in. And we don't really have an idea of how many C'tan there were before the Outsider decided they were all lunch.

The thought popped into my head and I really can't prove it. It's just a weird possibility.

precinctomega
29-08-2007, 19:11
Dear Astner,

Unfortunately, your question makes no sense. First of all the question of whether any, all or some of the entities variously known as "gods" are actually divine is far from answered. Whilst the existence of the Dark Powers (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh) and the Emperor is indisputable, the exact nature of entities such as Gork and Mork, the Laughing God, the Star Child and other such mythical beings has not been established.

Even for those creatures that do exist - such as the C'tan Star Gods - there is no definitive yardstick by which to assess their objective "power". And for those entities that do seem to approach god-like power there seems to be a contextual issue: Khorne is supreme in matters of bloodshed but couldn't organize an orgy if you handed him three gallons of whipped cream and Hugh Hefner's rolodex.

The best that we can say is that there are some pretty damn powerful entities out there who may or may not be on our side. And there might just be a whole load of other even more powerful entities that have just popped out for a pint of milk - cosmologically speaking - but who'll be back in time for the Apocalypse.

R.

Gdolkin
30-08-2007, 00:04
Malal is away doing a course in copyright and IP law, but the 4 Ruinous Powers live in abject fear of the true Chaos embodied by Malal. I wish..

Devil-Tears
30-08-2007, 06:47
Tier I
Games Workshop - The "Big Cheese"

Tier II
WH40k R&D (aka They Who Create) - Those directly under GW

Tier III
The manufacturers - The Forgeworld of all Warhammer (whether fantasy or 40k)

Tier IV
GW storefronts / Rogue Traders - The Suppliers

Tier V
Warhammer Gamers (us) - Yea, were basically at the whims of all the other forces.

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 06:52
Tier I
Games Workshop - The "Big Cheese"

Tier II
WH40k R&D (aka They Who Create) - Those directly under GW

Tier III
The manufacturers - The Forgeworld of all Warhammer (whether fantasy or 40k)

Tier IV
GW storefronts / Rogue Traders - The Suppliers

Tier V
Warhammer Gamers (us) - Yea, were basically at the whims of all the other forces.

Umm I think not. Actually we should be higher than the storefronts because we heavily influence what GW does by what we buy.

Bregalad
30-08-2007, 08:52
Tier I Chuck Norris

Tier II Who cares? ;)

Cartographer
30-08-2007, 08:57
Umm I think not. Actually we should be higher than the storefronts because we heavily influence what GW does by what we buy.

I have to disagree there, we consumers are almost entirely at the whim of the marketing forces of the great chaos god of advertisement "Sellittothem" (otherwise known as "whatever GW says we should buy"). The fact you think you have more of a say than storefronts just indicates that the marketing is working as it's giving you the impression of free choice.

OT: Power in the warhammer universe is always shifting, the nature of the immaterium itself works against the Ruinous powers as often as it works for them and their powers are in constant flux, mirroring the real world they are a reflection of. It is also relative and based on everyones' POV: Any chaos worshiping heretic will happily scream about the might of Khorne and the unstoppable powers of the warp who you can join with for power eternal, but he'll be easily dispatched by a guardsman who whispers prayers to the emperor under his breath as he goes about his duty confident in the supreme nature of the emperor after having witnessed a living saint smite the emperor's foes. Who in turn could easily be slaughtered by any of the multitude of religious themed nutters in the extended 41st millennium...

Simply put, if one was massively more powerful than the others, they'd have won 10000 years ago. GW doesn't want that, so none of them so called "gods" are in any position to massively overpower any of the others, and no amount of wishing will make it so.

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 08:59
I have to disagree there, we consumers are almost entirely at the whim of the marketing forces of the great chaos god of advertisement "Sellittothem" (otherwise known as "whatever GW says we should buy"). The fact you think you have more of a say than storefronts just indicates that the marketing is working as it's giving you the impression of free choice.

Let's put it like this. If we don't buy model X GW stops making model X. Now a store can't just say can you stop making model X and GW will listen.

Cartographer
30-08-2007, 09:09
Let's put it like this. If we don't buy model X GW stops making model X. Now a store can't just say can you stop making model X and GW will listen.

Lets put it like this, store paints up army X, passsers by see army X and come in and buy army X. Gamers see army X in action (played by an experienced player who wins more than he looses) and want to play army X so they can win more often (human nature working here). Modelers/converters see cool army X figure in cabinet are inspired to create their own version or a model on a similar there so buy army X model to do so...

Shall I go on?

We are told what to buy, it's done both subtly and obviously and has a much bigger effect than you are giving it credit for.

Arcanus
30-08-2007, 09:23
Lets put it like this, store paints up army X, passsers by see army X and come in and buy army X. Gamers see army X in action (played by an experienced player who wins more than he looses) and want to play army X so they can win more often (human nature working here). Modelers/converters see cool army X figure in cabinet are inspired to create their own version or a model on a similar there so buy army X model to do so...

Shall I go on?

We are told what to buy, it's done both subtly and obviously and has a much bigger effect than you are giving it credit for.

Ok then if so why were the Squats eaten because no one played them and why doesn't GW market the Inquisition rather than forget about them. You sound like the kind of average conspiracy theorist saying the "man" controls us It doesn't work like that the consumer has an effect on almost anything on the market. Consider this a social experiment don't buy any Tyranid merchandise and see what happens. But I mean at a large scale make your friends join in your family and then you'll see. A the Necrons will harvest all of the Tyranid and then they'll be no more Tyranids.

One_Second_of_Insanity
30-08-2007, 09:29
Tier I Chuck Norris

Tier II Who cares? ;)

Yep that is the beginning and end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned


PS Everyone is forgetting Gork and Mork, they would have to be up there kicking it with the rest of them

Astner
30-08-2007, 11:42
Tier I
Games Workshop - The "Big Cheese"

Tier II
WH40k R&D (aka They Who Create) - Those directly under GW

Tier III
The manufacturers - The Forgeworld of all Warhammer (whether fantasy or 40k)

Tier IV
GW storefronts / Rogue Traders - The Suppliers

Tier V
Warhammer Gamers (us) - Yea, were basically at the whims of all the other forces.
So what exactly has this to do with the 40K fluff? *Pointing on the thread.

precinctomega
30-08-2007, 12:04
Unfortunately, it is the fate of all such questions to be hijacked by veterans as another opportunity to complain about our fundamental inability to resist the urge to buy toy soldiers despite being old enough to know better.

R.

Kage2020
30-08-2007, 13:47
Just ignoring your problem doesn't make it disappear Kage.
Erm, that's because it is not a problem. It's more a case of "apples and oranges." Everyone seems to be considering fruit as the lowest category, when you've actually got apples and oranges underneath that, and the difference between the two can be significant.

Ah well. I've never been a huge fan of the "versus" thread, which this is basically a rendition of, so I shall bow out.

/Kage

TrooperTino
30-08-2007, 14:02
uh thats cool! let me try...

Tier I The Great Devourer that is the Tyranid Hive Mind, The Starchild (iff it is born)

Tier II The bigger chaos gods (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle)

Tier III The Emperor, lower chaos gods (Slanesh, Malal?), all Eldar gods

Tier IV Necron 'Gods', deamon Primarchs

Tier V Sensai, deamons, alpha plus Psykers


*just personal opinion*

talencross
30-08-2007, 15:18
Being new to the novels and such, where is the Starchild referenced?

Ktotwf
30-08-2007, 16:19
Tier 1: The Emperor, the Chaos Gods, Mork and Gork, the C'Tan, the Eldar Gods.

Thats pretty much it.

They all serve the purpose as "Gods" of their races. Considering the relative positions of the races they "lead", I would tend to think that the Emperor and Mork and Gork knew how to get the job done best.

Dalenator
30-08-2007, 16:41
Ok then if so why were the Squats eaten because no one played them and why doesn't GW market the Inquisition rather than forget about them. You sound like the kind of average conspiracy theorist saying the "man" controls us It doesn't work like that the consumer has an effect on almost anything on the market. Consider this a social experiment don't buy any Tyranid merchandise and see what happens. But I mean at a large scale make your friends join in your family and then you'll see. A the Necrons will harvest all of the Tyranid and then they'll be no more Tyranids.

The squats were removed because they were basically space dwarfs and GW wanted to distance 40k from WFB. Plenty of people played squats back in the day.;)

Astner
30-08-2007, 19:46
From what I've understand it goes something like this.

Tier I - Chaos Gods, C'tan
Tier II - Old Ones Hive Mind, Eldar Gods, Gork n' Mork
Tier III - Hive Mind, Eldar Gods God-Emperor of Mankind (Pre-Horus Heresy)
Tier IV - God-Emperor of Mankind (Starchild) Horus (Empowered by Chaos energy)
Tier V - Primarches

azimaith
31-08-2007, 00:06
Im not sure where this is coming from but the Old Ones weren't gods. They were just an ancient race that focused on biological creation and webway rather than science. They're the equivalent of necrontyr in their godhood. (As in not)

Arcanus
31-08-2007, 08:27
Im not sure where this is coming from but the Old Ones weren't gods. They were just an ancient race that focused on biological creation and webway rather than science. They're the equivalent of necrontyr in their godhood. (As in not)

Yeah the Old Ones are not gods they just created most of the existing races.

Bregalad
31-08-2007, 18:23
... and how do you usually call the Creator of mankind?
The Old Ones as a race certainly influenced the universe as much as the Chaos Gods.

Astner
31-08-2007, 18:32
What are the sources/bases of the C'tan equalling the Chaos Gods?

Khaine's Messenger
31-08-2007, 19:36
You could base the ranking system on how hard it is for them to manifest personally in real space. Then it would look something like this:

Chaos Gods > Racial Gods > C'tan > Emperor
(approx.; you can include various other gods at your own discretion)

The Chaos Gods (or at least the big four) have to subdivide portions of their essential being in order to actually manifest, and as such can never do so independently.

The Racial Gods can be summoned, supposedly, by any psyker sufficiently skilled (perhaps of a certain bloodline), or even manifest by themselves (at least, before Asuryan separated the realm of heaven from the mortal realm). While it's crass to say they're "less powerful than" the big four, they usually don't have to subdivide their essential being in order to manifest, and overall have a more coherent identity. Within this hierarchy, the Ork gods may be considered slightly more powerful than many others, since they often only do bits of anatomy rather than full manifestation; the degree to which that is preference could alter things, though.

The C'tan are an interesting case, because they are manifest in the material world regardless; their necrodermis-bound state is quite different from their star-vampire state, but they're both "here." Indeed, all they really need is the superscience "star bridge" constructed by the Necrontyr, and bang, here they are. The warp negates some of their godly might, as well, but they've had a profound influence on many sentient races and have their own means of shutting out the warp, so it's hard to gauge their relative power.

The Emperor should be somewhat self-explanatory; he's always here, stinking up the place. The Slann might also be around this general level of power, although much higher in terms of influence (Racial Gods at least).

An interesting result of this ranking system is that the Star Child would pretty much promote the Emperor to Racial God rank at least. On the other hand, the current vision of the Emperor as espoused by, say, Draco, could reorder the list drastically, since the Emperor there was incredibly distant and (dum dum DUUUM!) subdivided. And if you want to drop the Machine God in, he could be near the top (so powerful that he never manifests), at the very bottom (he is manifest in reality as it is), or anywhere in between (assuming you think he's a warp power, a C'tan, or whatever).

Cartographer
31-08-2007, 20:10
Ok then if so why were the Squats eaten because no one played them and why doesn't GW market the Inquisition rather than forget about them. You sound like the kind of average conspiracy theorist saying the "man" controls us It doesn't work like that the consumer has an effect on almost anything on the market. Consider this a social experiment don't buy any Tyranid merchandise and see what happens. But I mean at a large scale make your friends join in your family and then you'll see. A the Necrons will harvest all of the Tyranid and then they'll be no more Tyranids.

It didn't take long for you to attack the man rather than his argument did it?

The reason for the demise in the squats has been posted by JJ, if you can't be bothered to look it up (there is a thread here on Warseer) then I really can't be bothered explaining it to you.

Market forces are very interesting to study, as you clearly know. However GW is not in competition with any other brand/company within it's own game universe, so consumers not buying something are not the driving force that they would be in an other markets. Within their own world GW are king so to speak and do dictate what people buy to a very great extent; they decide what campaigns to run, they decide what armies to push in WD, they decide and awful lot of things in an attempt to influence sales. The instances of people ignoring all the marketing force and "doing their own thing" are very seriously in the minority.

Astner
31-08-2007, 21:18
I thought the machine God and the Void Dragon were the one and the same.

Mechanicus
31-08-2007, 21:21
Some in the Mechanicus believe them to be, but that doesn't actually mean it has to be true. ;)

Arcanus
31-08-2007, 21:22
It didn't take long for you to attack the man rather than his argument did it?

The reason for the demise in the squats has been posted by JJ, if you can't be bothered to look it up (there is a thread here on Warseer) then I really can't be bothered explaining it to you.

Market forces are very interesting to study, as you clearly know. However GW is not in competition with any other brand/company within it's own game universe, so consumers not buying something are not the driving force that they would be in an other markets. Within their own world GW are king so to speak and do dictate what people buy to a very great extent; they decide what campaigns to run, they decide what armies to push in WD, they decide and awful lot of things in an attempt to influence sales. The instances of people ignoring all the marketing force and "doing their own thing" are very seriously in the minority.

I know that there were more factors then just people playing squats in their disappearance but, if everyone played Squats they wouldn't of been eaten by the 'Nids.And GW does have competition in Wargames maybe not their own universe but in Wargames. People could aways go off and play Warmachine.

precinctomega
01-09-2007, 19:01
No one thinks that the Void Dragon is the Machine God. The Machine God is a metaphysical concept - the sum of all knowledge.

However, there is allegedly a cult within the Cult Mechanicus that believes that the Emperor was not the Omnissiah - i.e. a physical being containing the greatest sum of knowledge that a single being can contain - but that the Omnissiah is yet to come.

If this cult - and others - were to encounter an awakening C'Tan in their midst then they could easily take it to be the "true" Omnissiah.

R.

Brother Gabriel
01-09-2007, 20:54
The Empereror always kicked the buts of the so called chaos "gods" so why is there any discussion at all about this.
The combined power of all 4 chaos powers and Horus was needed to get a draw and "kill" the emperor, but even then only his body was destroyed...

Anyway we will never know, it didnt really happen :D...

Feran
01-09-2007, 21:04
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, as said before there is no literal or metaphorical yard stick.

But, I do believe the dice gods own all of the above. :skull:

Astner
01-09-2007, 23:18
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, as said before there is no literal or metaphorical yard stick.

But, I do believe the dice gods own all of the above. :skull:
They do affect them game, :D

Astner
02-09-2007, 17:38
Anyways, back to the Starchild, if it is existant--then it would exist in the Warp, but the four greatest force of the Warp are the Chaos Gods.
So how could, if existant, the Starchild be more powerful?

Ktotwf
02-09-2007, 17:39
Because the Starchild has yet to be fully formed. It is in its "gestation period" so to speak.

Astner
02-09-2007, 17:58
I just foud this, "He is considered to be the most powerful psyker in the galaxy and his warp presence is more powerful even than the four powers of Chaos combined"

On this website, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor
Is t official or what?

Ktotwf
02-09-2007, 18:02
I just foud this, "He is considered to be the most powerful psyker in the galaxy and his warp presence is more powerful even than the four powers of Chaos combined"

On this website, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor
Is t official or what?


Its not official no. He probably is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, but I doubt as of yet he is more powerful than the four Chaos Gods combined.

That being said, people are going to come in here and like that is the most absurd thing ever.

Its a bridge too far, IMHO, but I don't think it is wrong in spirit. The Emperor is and always was a threat to the Chaos Gods.

Astner
02-09-2007, 18:07
Its not official no. He probably is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, but I doubt as of yet he is more powerful than the four Chaos Gods combined.

That being said, people are going to come in here and like that is the most absurd thing ever.

Its a bridge too far, IMHO, but I don't think it is wrong in spirit. The Emperor is and always was a threat to the Chaos Gods.
I've also heard that the Starchild has been retconned and is no longer canon.
But you think, if, that the Starchild will overpower the Chaos Gods? -- He might be a part of the warp, but the Warp is Chaos.

precinctomega
02-09-2007, 19:51
The Star Child is a piece of old background. It hasn't been written out, but a lot of the old material that was presented as "this is how it is" is now being treated, very sensibly in my opinion, as "this is how some people think it may be".

R.

MrGarm13
04-09-2007, 03:01
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, as said before there is no literal or metaphorical yard stick.

But, I do believe the dice gods own all of the above. :skull:


Aye, Primarchs, C'tan's and Daemon Princes all must bow to bad armor saves and rending.

Devil-Tears
04-09-2007, 04:16
Aye, Primarchs, C'tan's and Daemon Princes all must bow to bad armor saves and rending.

Or the hard covered version of the 4th ed. rule book.:p Man those things are big.

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 17:31
I know that there were more factors then just people playing squats in their disappearance but, if everyone played Squats they wouldn't of been eaten by the 'Nids.And GW does have competition in Wargames maybe not their own universe but in Wargames. People could aways go off and play Warmachine.

Aah warmachine...

A game defined as "better than 40k", but by no other description.
I'll admit the models are occasionally pretty nice (I prefer Hordes), but the background is tripe of DnD or Forgotten Realms quality (apologies to the 2 good writers in FR, the rest seem to play out their combat scenes with the DnD rules... *shudders*).

However, it is in no way a competition for GW. There aren't other companies producing space marines or eldar, if you want them you go to GW and subject yourself to the GW marketing machine to do so. Even if you go to an independent stockist or order online, GW deciding to "push Orks" this year will have an effect on the models ordered by the stockists and thus available for purchase.

GW don't sell marines because they are the most popular army, they do everything in their power to make them the most popular army as well, it doesn't happen in isolation. And the power of the consumer while in many other fields great, is greatly diminished because of the market GW are selling to.

To answer you "Squat point"; GW would still be making squats, but could find no way to distinguish them from being "Space Dwarves" or "Short IG with beards and bikes", no way to give them a "hook" that was theirs alone and they died a death in obscurity as they couldn't think of a way to make them go out in a blaze of glory.

Perversely enough, the Epic Squat army was arguably one of the most well defined and balanced lists, with a distinctive look and feel that was greatly different from any other force available. It made them quite a popular army. It's a great shame they couldn't translate that to 40k.

MutantMaggot
04-09-2007, 17:41
What about the eldar gods? Much as I hate eldar, you simply can't forget Khaine, and he is level with the c'tan. He is certainly as powerful. Or was.

Astner
04-09-2007, 20:14
What about the eldar gods? Much as I hate eldar, you simply can't forget Khaine, and he is level with the c'tan. He is certainly as powerful. Or was.
Was ... Because Khorne and Slaanesh torn Khaine in a thousand pieces when fighting for the control over him.