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Wings of Doom
30-08-2007, 11:19
Afternoon all,

I'm looking for some tactical assistance on (as the astute among you may have geussed) my orcs vs shooty armies. I haven't been playing greenskins for that long so am not particularly apt with them, and this is not helped by my main opponents being dark elves and empire, both of which are very shooty armies.
I'm finding that by the time I reach my opponnents battleline I'm so shot up that I'm easily out manouvered, outnumbered or outcharged.
Advice and assistance?

Cheers,
Wings.

warlord hack'a
30-08-2007, 12:14
well if you post your list that will help, now I'm stuck with general advise, so here we go:
0) the most important one (the others below are in no particular order): make sure that not everytime there are plenty of hills , or even a hill, in the deployment zone of the table. Not all battles were fought in a valley!

1) don't get one, get two. This rule holds for most O&G business, send 2 units to do the job of one. If one gets shot then the other will get through, if both get shot then again other units will get through. What I am actually trying to say is: make your whole army do the same, work together towards one goal, if you want to reach the enemy half of the table, don't hold back half your force, move in everything (except warmachines of course)

2) get orc boar chariots (note the plural), they are a serious threat and very tough to kill with normal bowfire (T5 and 4 wounds will keep them alive for quite long versus S3 bowfire). Be careful with cannons though but that is why you need more than one chariot.

3) combine these chariots with fast cav that runs around the flanks: the cannons want to shoot the chariots, but if fast cav is threathening their flank then maybe they will get nervous and shoot at those.

4) get units that are as useful at half strength as they are at full strength. E.g. a unit of night goblins with fanatics si there to release the fanatics. If of the 20 night goblins only 5 make it to within 8 inch of their target unit then they have fulfilled their goal. If you start out with 25 svg orcs and only 10 make it across then those 10 will still munch through his archer units

5) screen with gobbo's, very useful against all enemy shooting on ground level. Gobbo's are cheap and there to die

6) hide in terrain, or behind it. Spiderriders and squig hoppers are very good for this.

7) get your whole army mounted, a all wolf list with lots of chariots. Then he will have exactly one round of shooting, with luck 2.

fairly basic advise as you can see, some more of it: protect your expensive troops with cheap ones but do not overdo it: expensive troops will get lost, just don't hold them back, push forward! I faced a shooty woodelf army soem months ago, he reduced my 2 units of 24 svg orcs each to only 8 or 10 models before I had reached his lines. But those svg orcs then munched through his units without problem, which upset him, saying that the svg orcs were underpriced. After which I pointed out to him that I had to pay for all the ablative wounds he had caused..

Fredmans
30-08-2007, 12:49
I am not the greatest O&G general around, but I will add my own thoughts, having faced shooty dark elves and empire a number of times.

Terrain: Although O&G traditionally abhors terrain, I find that a couple of forests or pieces of terrain on the battlefield makes it harder for a shooty enemy to concentrate his fire AND to outmanouever you since your flanks will be better protected. Avoid open field contests against shooty enemies. Whenever they place a hill in a deployment zone, place a forest right next to it.

Screening: I do not favour screening my own units because of... Animosity. Every time you screen a unit from fire there is a 1/3 chance of your tactic to go wrong... EVERY turn. Let's face it, Animosity kills screening tactics.

Two units for one: I am not quite sure how this works. I find that 7th ed. O&G drastically reduces the number of units you actually field. I often outnumber my enemy in units, but very rarely 2:1. This is also a good reason to fill the board with terrain, it will make it easier for you to form a battle line and reduce his advantage of mobility. I agree about chariots though. They are worth it, since they are the most reliable shock troop available to O&G. To field more chariots and still keep those chukkas and squig hoppers, put some characters in chariots as well.

I think the key element in a battle against armies like Empire and Dark Elves is to reduce their mobility before they can reduce yours. Many people will advice you to add some fast cavalry and "take out" your enemy's war machines etc. When I face Empire, I find a substantial army waiting for me at the other side of the board. Add knights and the best fast cavalry in the game (pistoliers), and it is no longer a question of just reaching your enemy, it is to reach him with an army of equal or higher strength.

When I face dark elves or Empire, my opponents go for everything that is fast first, like wolf riders and chariots. To protect them, you will need magic protection and a good use of terrain to reduce incoming fire.

The problem is that O&G lack troops or artillery that is good against fast cavalry. I am currently thinking of using more orc shamans, to counter them with magic missiles, but I have not tried it yet.

Your best option would be to increase the number of targets that your opponent would do right to be afraid of, distracting fire from your key cc units. Chariots, pump wagons, squig hoppers and fast cavalry are your best bets. Why not a giant? Empire is a low leadership army and that terror could come in handy.

Anyway, I understand your problem, and there is no sure way to beat especially Empire, but see it as a battle for mobility, going for his dark riders, pistoliers etc, and yes, learn to love terrain. These armies will destroy you on an open field.

/Fredmans

Wings of Doom
30-08-2007, 13:10
0) the most important one (the others below are in no particular order): make sure that not everytime there are plenty of hills , or even a hill, in the deployment zone of the table. Not all battles were fought in a valley!

Good advice. Will see to it.


1) don't get one, get two. This rule holds for most O&G business, send 2 units to do the job of one. If one gets shot then the other will get through, if both get shot then again other units will get through. What I am actually trying to say is: make your whole army do the same, work together towards one goal, if you want to reach the enemy half of the table, don't hold back half your force, move in everything (except warmachines of course)

Indeed, my goal is to reach the enemy half of the table, and I commit my entire force to it- unfortunatly, being committed does not stop bullets/arrows.


2) get orc boar chariots (note the plural), they are a serious threat and very tough to kill with normal bowfire (T5 and 4 wounds will keep them alive for quite long versus S3 bowfire). Be careful with cannons though but that is why you need more than one chariot.

I take at least 2 chariots every game. They're brilliant.


3) combine these chariots with fast cav that runs around the flanks: the cannons want to shoot the chariots, but if fast cav is threathening their flank then maybe they will get nervous and shoot at those.

As I said, my fast cav get shot to pieces as soon as they are sighted. They have enough firepower to either wipe out the units, make them panic, or take them down to small enough numbers that stand and shoot or a second round of shooting will do exactly that.


4) get units that are as useful at half strength as they are at full strength. E.g. a unit of night goblins with fanatics si there to release the fanatics. If of the 20 night goblins only 5 make it to within 8 inch of their target unit then they have fulfilled their goal. If you start out with 25 svg orcs and only 10 make it across then those 10 will still munch through his archer units

True. Not that I expect Ld.5 Night Gobbos to take 75% casualties and stick around.


5) screen with gobbo's, very useful against all enemy shooting on ground level. Gobbo's are cheap and there to die

As Fredmans said, animosity. I have tried this and there is one in six chance of every shielding unit stopping two units moving, shooting and/or casting for a turn. Woopee!


6) hide in terrain, or behind it. Spiderriders and squig hoppers are very good for this.

That contradicts my aim of getting to his battleline- if I'm cowering behind terrain I'm just wasting time.


7) get your whole army mounted, a all wolf list with lots of chariots. Then he will have exactly one round of shooting, with luck 2.

With Ld.6 one round of shooting is probably enough to panic a large amount of the army. Two rounds of shooting in anycase- I don't think he'll elect not top stand and shoot. If he deploys 36" from me at the start (easy enough for a shoting army on a 48" long board) he'll get two or three (first turn) rounds.


Against the Empire I was outnumbered, with his combat units alone matching mine unit for unit.

My list was pretty much;

Black orc warboss tooled

Black orc bigboss BSB

2 Level 2 Shaman

3 units of 25 Boyz with shields

3 Units of 5ish Wolf Riders

25 Blorcs

2 boar chariots

2 Spear Chukkas

4 Pump Wagons



Thanks for the responses.

warlord hack'a
30-08-2007, 18:34
how about getting a screen of 40 night gobbo's and putting your BO general or BO bsb in it, say bye bye to animosity and low LD and the orcs behind this unit can move safely across the board.

As for using the terrain, spiderriders and squig hoppers can moe through terrain as if it is nto there, so they cover the full distance to the enemy without slowing down and without being able to get shot. Also, a hole 5 inch wide is enough for a unit of svg orc boar boyz to squeeze through, so if say a forest is on your flank but there is room to move around it then do so, better than trying to go through the killing field which is the central open plaza..

I always play on a 4*6 foot table, as prescribed. And we have 5-6 pieces of terrain on this table, so there is cover enough and room to move around it..

And one more tip: svg orcs are good as well, though they die more easily than regular boyz versus S3 fire (equally well against S4 fire and harder against S5 or up). The good thing about them is: they keep on going, no 25%casualty = panic check and once they reach the enemy lines they dish out 2 or 3 attacks per model.. I love savages ;-)

Crazy Harborc
31-08-2007, 01:55
I use 10 body spider rider units, shortbows, spears and shields. Standard and musician (unit champs cost too much for what they do for a gobbo unit). Two or three units of Night Goblins, 30 in each with 3 fanatics in each. Musician and standard. I add spears. Bows shoot but you give up the shields to get them for your NGs.....

I like to use a BO Warboss I add the Enchanted Shield, usually a ward save too. Warboss Imbads Iron Gnashas for the killing blow. Since it's not a magic weapon it doesn't interfeer with the BO's armed to the teeth.;)

Remember the once per game Waaagh (must declare) at the beginning of your turn.;) Hope for the magic spell Waaagh.

Orcs and Goblins are fun. It takes time to learn how to move em out!!! Orcs work better against HEs. Goblins do surprisingly well against Dwarves. I use Orcs with the gobbos against those Dwarves. Spider riders and Squig hoppers don't worry about difficult or very difficult terrain.

nyahuma
31-08-2007, 02:30
Well I am a big advacate of an all (or nearly all) mounted O&G force, even though some see it as against the "spirit" of the army. I ran an all mounted force in a recent league and won about 8 out of 10 games, and against some very shooty armies. A friend of mine is taking a similar tact in the current league and is currently in 2nd place after 8 weeks. Redundancy is key in these lists - at least 4 chariots, 4 units of spiders, squig hoppers and/or pump wagons and at least 4 spear chukkas, plus lots of magic. They work because there are only so many targets your opponant can choose per turn and you can choose your battles. Each unit on its own needs to be minimum size and as cheap as possible, musicians only. Lots of units will end up dead but hopefully they won't add up to much in the end. Of course its not fool proof - no list ever is - but it is effective.

DeathlessDraich
31-08-2007, 09:58
Just three bits of advice in addition to the good advice above:

1) Waagh in the first turn to give you the extra distance and during deployment, make sure the units that will definitely Waagh successfully are not blocked and are correctly positioned - shortest distance to swordsmen etc.

2) Choose the default magic missile spells and focus your spells on X bows for Empire and against Bolt throwers on DE. Most, if not all, of your spells will be dispelled in turn 1 so it is more important to cast as many spells as possible in turns 1 and 2 to get rid of dispel scrolls (rather than 1 spell with a big casting value) and give your magic a chance from turn 3 onwards.

3) Focus your shooting on 1 unit - Doom Diver on the warmachines and archers. Wolf riders can march and shoot as Fast cavalry, so position them so that they can shoot without being charged or shot in the next turn - again shoot enemy archers. If you are good at long distance estimates, deploy wolf riders 31 or 32" from X bows (for Empire) or for an easier estimate, more than 24" from repeater Xbows or hand gunners i.e. deploy slightly less than 12" and tempt them to shoot you but move and shoot in your turn.

Wings of Doom
31-08-2007, 11:59
Thanks for all the replies!
Lots of food for thought.

Nyahuma- to get that many chariots do you put characters in chariots?

Draich- Very good advice, though I'm nto sure about Waaagh!-ing on the first turn. I suppose it means I still have all of my ranks, but I like to keep it for suprises...

As a point of interest, can a character in chariot buy an extra crewman?

Thanks all!

Fredmans
31-08-2007, 12:04
As a point of interest, can a character in chariot buy an extra crewman?

Thanks all!

It is clarified in the O&G Errata/FAQ. A character's chariot is purchased like a monstrous steed. The upgrade options are only available for ordinary chariots.

/Fredmans

captaincortez
01-09-2007, 00:37
Take a few large squig herds. They are immune to panic and are very effective even in small numbers. A few squigs will make short work of units of 10-16 shooters.

Krusk
03-09-2007, 06:06
Giants are always good. They attract fire like none other. And if they don't shoot it, they suddenly have a Giant smashing things. Even if have units that can deal with it once it gets close, it's still one dangerous nuisance, and it might even pay for itself.

warlord hack'a
03-09-2007, 07:36
yes, a giant, that's a good one to take versus shooting: 200 points only for something with 6 wounds an no armour save..

Seriously, taking a giant against a shooty army is not a sensible thing unless you can hide him from shooting. The whole idea of facing a shooty army is that you present as shooting targets either units that are cheap or too many threats for the shooter to deal with.

The philisophy 'well they are shooting the giant and therefor not my other troops' is true but since the giant is the most juicy target it's not what you want..

Crazy Harborc
04-09-2007, 02:00
I always try to keep things like a giant close to other friendly units. That way when an opponent kills my giant I can tell myself......" well better it than my HtH units the giant came across the field drawing fire away from them". My giant's point are less than most of my other units.

Goldenwolf
04-09-2007, 03:01
Don't take a a Giant.

Use a Doom Diver, Rock Lobba, and Spear Chukkas to break apart his shooting units. Also the advice about using the cheap spells the first 2 turns is good, along with the Itty Ring for another Eadbutt spell.

Take LARGE units. Lose the Blorcs. Elite Infantry against Shooty forces suck big time. Take more boys or a block of Night Gobbos. Having 40 NG moving towards them with maybe fanatics will draw some fire, but them getting killed and routing shouldn't bother you too much.

If all else fails, load one side of the board with units, and screen the flank(now center) of the battlefield.

starlight
04-09-2007, 04:28
Refused Flank. Touched on, but expanded here. :)

Don't use the whole table. Concentrate your forces on one flank, using your fast units to make it seem like you are deploying a balanced army. On your first turn, redeploy your fast units out of range and charge forward. Many of his units should be out of range now that your fast units have moved. Consider a sacrificing a Spear Chukka or Pumpwagon to keep the illusion of a balalnced force, and to act as a diversion and split his attention.

Pushing forward with most of your army into half of his can be a rude surprise when the other half can't shoot effectively.

Mazdug
04-09-2007, 15:00
I have had a reasonable amount of success against shooty armies by taking an abundance of spear chuckas. If his warmachines can shoot me, my spear chuckas should be able to shoot them(assuming that I get to deploy them after he has deployed all his units, which, considering the number of units I can field, I usually can). With a couple of well defended spear chuckas clusters (I recently fielded 6 in one game, I may try 8 one day when I have the models), you can usually take out atleast one of you opponents more expensive warmachines each turn this way, and once those are out of the picture, you can start pincushioning his close combat troops, so yours will have the edge once they arrive.

warlord hack'a
04-09-2007, 15:57
let's see, you have 6 chukkas. normally they hit on 4+ but over half range so they hit on 5+. On average each shooting phase you will score 2 hits versus, say, an empire great cannon. Now randomize: 1-4 hit the cannon, 5-6 hit the crew (I might have these numbers wrong), hitting the cannon leaves you with S6 versus T7 gives you a 5+ roll (33%) chance to wound the cannon and then again a 33% chance to score 3 wounds.
Or calculated in a different way, the expected damage a single boltthrower does against the cannon itself is:
2/6 (to hit) * 4/6 (randomize and hit cannon) * 2/6 (wound) * 2 (average of d3 wounds) = 0.15 wounds
the expected chance of killing a crewman with a single boltthower shot is:
2/6*2/6*5/6=0.09
so in other words, you will need on average 20 shots to take out the cannon. Those 20 shots will at the same time also take out 2 crew members.
Now a bolt thrower costs 35 points, let's say it makes it through the day and fires all 6 shots it can in a battle. So the price per shot is 35/6 = almost 6 points. Now you need 20 shots to take out the cannon, so that means a point investment on your side of 120 points in bolt thrower shots, for a 100 point cannon, hhhhmmmmm.

and while you are shooting it the cannon can shoot back as well.

Crazy Harborc
04-09-2007, 23:20
Mazdug....I got a feeling you enjoy using those spear chuckas. So use them and enjoy the game.

I can vouch for a bat winged loonies being able to cause concern. I dragged out my old one, dusted it off, plopped it on a hill......quessed the range and got a direct hit on the first shot with it in over 4 years. His metal dunce cap head did 6 hits worth of damage.:evilgrin:

thedodgeypanda
04-09-2007, 23:41
i use a goblin shield (gobos 10x1 1 unit per 2 ork units) a good meat shield and doesnt cause panic. And everyone will think they have fanatics so you dont need to worry about taking a charge. but if you want to charge your kind of boned so you need to set the charge up very carfuly if the gobboes arnt dead. for war machines use wolf riders turn 2 charge. And take 2 goblin shamans (level 1) with 2 dispel scrolls each (in 2000points) and hide them in or behind a wood. As a dark elf player (and fanatic) im terrieifed of fanaticas and the worst of all CHARIOTS AND BLACK ORC CHARICTERS WITH 5+A

Crazy Harborc
05-09-2007, 01:44
A regular opponent recently learned the hard way that the NG unit he pumped the most arrows into.....had no fanatics. It did have 40 NGs, they were like lemmings. Gobbos do make good meat shields for my Orc boys.

Goldenwolf
06-09-2007, 17:25
Panda,

Gobbos are a minimum size of 20, so you are illegal in using 10 in a unit.

*** If you do use NG as a meat shield, say 4 wide 10 deep, just don't take any extras with them.

Crazy Harborc
07-09-2007, 01:59
I like five ranks 8 across....It does mess with a couple of my regular opponent's minds.:D I did use 5 across 8 ranks one time. The once a game Waaaagh (at my turn's beginning), a march move...then boxcars on attempting to cast the Waaagh spell.......THEN I rolled a 5 & 6, I only needed a 9 total....Got his best spears in the flank. My NGs won. His pointy ears ran, I pursued and caught them.

I had 9 fanatics in 4 NG units....NONE hit a unit....his:( or mine:D

Krusk
07-09-2007, 23:39
I agree, a Giant is a expensive way to draw fire, but it IS better than having multiple combat units die due to being depleted. Sure, you can try to shoot up a shooty army with artillery, but trying to beat them at their own game doesn't always work. Orc shooting is not the hottest. It's good for taking potshots,(preferably at valuable stuff), but it's at the expense of taking something "fightier". And I never said that Giants are the ONLY way to deal with incoming fire, just that they can, as a bonus, divert some. 200 points is a lot, but losing a big combat unit plus standard can hurt a lot more.

T10
08-09-2007, 10:23
I'm finding that by the time I reach my opponnents battleline I'm so shot up that I'm easily out manouvered, outnumbered or outcharged.
Advice and assistance?


Wolf riders in small units and wolf chariots backed up by solid blocks of orc and goblin infantry. Press the attack and don't worry overly much about taking casualties.

The cavalry and chariots can threaten enemy units from within long range of their missile troops, meaning that a Stand&Shoot against these units will hit on 6+ (Empire BS 3, Dark Elf BS 4 repeater crossbows multishot at -1).

Use the Waagh! power of your general to get the jump on your enemy, so plan ahead. If a couple of Waagh! susceptible units (i.e. they will have bonuses to the Animosity roll) are within 10-12" of the enemy it's well worth pulling out the stops!

With multiple units you may find your troops are getting in each other's way. Take the time to practice by setting up the army and "play" a few turns moving the units forward. As you move the units, ask your self "What happens if this unit is detroyed by shooting? Can it flee from a charge without spreading panic?"

-T10

Braad
08-09-2007, 23:51
I support the advices of going big. 25 orcs and 30 gobbo's per unit allows for quite some losses.
ITP is also nice.

A fun option could also be, in larger games, to give a Black orc warboss Basha's Bloodaxe (that's the one with +D6 attacks right?) and Maad's Map, hope not to roll a 1, and have him deployed somewhere very close (or even behind your enemies) on a location that is difficult to shoot.
Sneak in a forest on his side of the table for example, if he doesn't expect this tactic he probably will agree.

Crazy Harborc
09-09-2007, 19:13
Sooo....has anybody done a game (of at least 2500 points) with VERY large units of BOs. I mean 30 plus BO boys.:D I always manage to talk myself out of doing it on the table. I've done it on paper several times.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
09-09-2007, 21:52
I think that you should take a stone thrower and a doom diver. For the cheap points cost throw in the spear chukkas. My friend used to play orcs and that combination was a pain even for ironbreakers! I would also say that you should take lots of 20 strong ng units. They will help in terms of numbers and number of units. They will protect flanks as well as assist you in flanking. Also use them as bait. Fanatics are deadly when they work so take loads of em. Even if they kill ur guys they are no points anyways.
Along with all this take big units of orc boys. They arent all that expensive. This will preven panic and keep ur ranks. Goblin chariots wouldnt be a bad idea minus cannons... A character gives them flanking abilities.... I dont know if these ideas will work or if they have already been mentioned becausei didnt read the other comments. lol good luck!;)

Frankly
10-09-2007, 07:22
Chariots

Wolf riders



Numbers.

My gunline had trouble against a well supported Ork armylist, if the army keeps to the basic's really well.

Huge blocks of infantry supported by faster elements can really give me targeting issues.

Swarming in with chariots and wolf riders means alot of shots directed at low cost units instead of depleting rank and file ork units. 18" march/charge keeps you out of H.gunner range in turn 1, while most charging will be done in turn 2, that high movement will also give you some movement between units to keep them out of panic distance.

I usually play against 6 x 5 wolf riders and 4 chariots, thats 10 fast elements I have to deal with before I take on his rank and file.

His second wave a general(YOU TOTALLY MEAN HIGH L.D.)and lots and rank and file common as muck orks and gobbo's. The unit size of orks are 24(6 across) and units size of gobbo's are 35. If his faster elements do well against my shooty units, then I have a hard time against his ork units.

Mazdug
10-09-2007, 13:16
*chopped all the math*
so in other words, you will need on average 20 shots to take out the cannon. Those 20 shots will at the same time also take out 2 crew members.
Now a bolt thrower costs 35 points, let's say it makes it through the day and fires all 6 shots it can in a battle. So the price per shot is 35/6 = almost 6 points. Now you need 20 shots to take out the cannon, so that means a point investment on your side of 120 points in bolt thrower shots, for a 100 point cannon, hhhhmmmmm.

and while you are shooting it the cannon can shoot back as well.

I didn't say its tactically sound, I said I've had a lot of luck with it. Also, I would say that more often then not, the other player starts shooting back at my bolt throwers, allowing my troops more turns of unsquished movement.

Oh, and its all worth it when the boltthrower one shots the cannon on the first turn, which has happened more then once. I admit this strategy is not as viable now that I don't have infinite rerolls from my magic phase, but it still works ok for me.

Bernardinatti
11-09-2007, 13:09
Hi,

i myself have had this problem big time. O&G was the first army i played and the guy i played with had really shooty empire and darkelves. My poor orcs were always wiped off the table without ever really troubling either army.

I have since moved on and gotten a shooty skaven army, which was quite effectively countered by this guy playing a well-supported orc army.

Big blocks of Savage boys (20-25) means that it takes a long time for a shooty army to destroy the entire unit. 6+ ward save means you have an outside chance to save even the nastiest cannonball. Also frenzy means you are not going to be taking a panic test...ever.

4-5 blocks of these boys, with i'd say about four units of 5 (non upgraded) wolf riders. Forces the shooter to divide shots to all wolf riders. Thus giving everyone a chance to get forward, combine this with the general's Waaagghhh and you'd be surprised how quickly your boys will get there with enough strength to destroy a shooty army.

Mind you, its not a great tactic. But i found it suprisingly effect against me and i've seen the orcs mowed down so many times it's depressing.

Gray Orc
11-09-2007, 13:25
yes, a giant, that's a good one to take versus shooting: 200 points only for something with 6 wounds an no armour save..

Agreed ... against shooty armies, take trolls and run 'em along side your general's unit. That regeneration works marvels against all kinds of shooting. It's like starting out with twice as many trolls as you actually have. Plus, if you run into some tough stuff, just puke on 'em.

Against anything that doesn't have a lot of shooting, i'll take the giant.

BrutusLee
12-09-2007, 15:25
Having played O6G against empire for some 10 years now, Ive realized that fancy maneuverung dont work, and that shielding with gobbos is useless. I used to go with 3 wolf chariots, 3 x6 wolf boys, some boar boys and a giant. Placing the gobbos in charge position on turn 1 usually allows some of them to charge, and even if only a few make it its usually enough to break or at least hold the shooters i combat for a few turns. Against dwarfs its a bit trickier, but the same approach shpuld work, and its a lot more green than sneaking around terrain...

Goldenwolf
13-09-2007, 00:23
I've found that throwing away 2 30 man unupgraded Gobbo units to soak up fire, with the refused flank works wonders against Empire Gunlines. The Dwarves are harder, as they usually corner up.

Dwarves you need to get some NG units w/fanatics close, and then spin them into the line. Against Dwarves, Skarnik is also great with his triksy traps, which can upset an army with low unit count, if you get lucky at all :) If you know they'll gunline, make 2-3 50+ Night Gobbo units, as you know they're just a Fanatic feeding machine.

Against either, Doom Divers and Rock Lobbas should be good. Your first turn you range fire, and since they don't move, turn 2 on should be hammer time with them, as you'll know the range. If they move to change range they don't fire, so either way we're good.

REMEMBER we are Greenskins, so losing 30+ models before making contact with the enemy is an acceptable loss, as long as you horde it up :)

Crazy Harborc
13-09-2007, 19:53
My NG gobbos (3 X 30 w/3 fanatics ea.) did a good job last night. It stills amazes me the way those units hang in there against the stunties;) The didn't win the game...BUT...their results turned defeat into a draw. More to the point the fanatic's random, misdirected wanderings after launching were good for some laughs......Gonna be more NG units next time. I just may not have the BOs show up.

By the by....my batwinged loonies couldn't find the ground much less an enemy unit.:confused:

Gray Orc
14-09-2007, 19:08
I have had a reasonable amount of success against shooty armies by taking an abundance of spear chuckas. If his warmachines can shoot me, my spear chuckas should be able to shoot them(assuming that I get to deploy them after he has deployed all his units, which, considering the number of units I can field, I usually can). With a couple of well defended spear chuckas clusters (I recently fielded 6 in one game, I may try 8 one day when I have the models), you can usually take out atleast one of you opponents more expensive warmachines each turn this way, and once those are out of the picture, you can start pincushioning his close combat troops, so yours will have the edge once they arrive.

I love spear chukkas so much, I had to make my own "spear chukka carts" with trolls lugging them around.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1003/1019211829_ed92f9b1e0_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1192/1019211873_b25412ee30_o.jpg

Chicago Slim
14-09-2007, 19:49
I'm with T10 on this one: my favorite answer to shooting is to provide a target rich environment. Two giants, four chariots, three big mobs of shorties, and a couple big mobs of Boyz, and a few units to do the real fighting up front (Big Uns and Savages).

This sort of ties into the "bring two to do the job of one" concept, too: I was talking to someone recently about Multiple Small Unit tactics, specifically about how big a unit still counts as "small". Ultimately, I convinced my friend to say something like "it's got to be well under 10% of your total points to be small."

25 Boyz with light armor, choppa and shield cost 125 points, which is 6.25% of a 2000 point army. Thus was born the Multiple LARGE Unit tactic!



An alternative is to bring a few very large units of things that don't panic. I'm talking here about a 35-strong Squig Herd, with 30 Savages, some Savage Big Uns, and both Giants. Add Squig Hoppers for flank support, and scour the book for ways of becoming immune to panic. You have to worry a bit about being outmanuevered, but if you're seeing a lot of REALLY shooty armies, then that'll be less of a concern, and before long you might break your opponents of their habit of bringing all shooting-- they'll start bringing more manueverable, fighting units, to counter your strategy, and then you've at least got some new problems to solve... :)

Mazdug
17-09-2007, 15:53
25 Boyz with light armor, choppa and shield cost 125 points, which is 6.25% of a 2000 point army. Thus was born the Multiple LARGE Unit tactic!

I hate to burst your bubble, but that math is wrong, 25 boys with shields is 150 without command, and not buying the command for units that size seems like shooting yourself in the foot.