PDA

View Full Version : Generalising chaos....



Mozzamanx
30-08-2007, 12:32
Ello there,

As everyone knows, a new chaos codex is about to hit the shelves. And quite frankly, some of the choices made in it are disgusting.

-The whole 10-men-for-a-heavy thing

I can understand this for loyalists, what with the codex astartes and all. However, the loyalists dont use it, chaos do. Why the hell do chaos have to follow this rule, when the ultrasmurfs (the ******** WRITERS of the book) get to keep their 6 man las-plas combos? I mean, what possible benefit is there to this aside from following a book?

-Getting rid of the legions

Lets compare Blood Angels to Black Templars- both of them are fairly similar, but still different. Theyre pretty ferocious for marines, both like to get up close to the enemy etc. And they both recieve special codexes from the normal marines. Unique units, restructured lists, army special rules etc. But at the heart of it, they are still following the codex, and are almost identical from a TT perspective. And yet, GW thinks there are more differences between them than there are between Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, or World Eaters and Thousand sons. IMO, the chaos legions are far more diverse than any of the chapters, and so they should have rules to reflect that.

-Daemons

While I appreciate the addition of Undivided daemons, getting rid of the marked ones was unnecessary and completely unwanted. There excuse of 'not enough space' is a pile of dung, theres 1 page for lesser daemons, 1 for greaters and 1 for the fast units. Thats 3 extra pages, ontop of the 104 already there. Incidentally, there are reportedly lots of pages that are basically a big picture whch, while nice and pretty, should NOT take the place of a chaos cornerstone.

Just my thoughts, and im aware that not everyone will agree with me, but I had to get that off my chest. In short, give chaos back its uniqueness, instead of just pointy marines with half the equipment. :mad:

/rant over

PMTN
30-08-2007, 12:50
The whole 10-men-for-a-heavy thing

I can understand this for loyalists, what with the codex astartes and all. However, the loyalists dont use it, chaos do. Why the hell do chaos have to follow this rule, when the ultrasmurfs (the ******** WRITERS of the book) get to keep their 6 man las-plas combos? I mean, what possible benefit is there to this aside from following a book?

Lets think about this for a second. Yes the loyalist still get to min/max squads. But as the updates to DA, BA this is going to be phased out over time. Indeed, without it I could see chaos becoming even more generalised. With hundreds of similar armies packed with min/maxed squads of generic chaos marines with cheap rhinos.



Lets compare Blood Angels to Black Templars- both of them are fairly similar, but still different. Theyre pretty ferocious for marines, both like to get up close to the enemy etc. And they both recieve special codexes from the normal marines. Unique units, restructured lists, army special rules etc. But at the heart of it, they are still following the codex, and are almost identical from a TT perspective. And yet, GW thinks there are more differences between them than there are between Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, or World Eaters and Thousand sons. IMO, the chaos legions are far more diverse than any of the chapters, and so they should have rules to reflect that.

Okay if rumors are true it seems that specific legion rules may be released in the future. (I am personally hoping for dex's like the blood angels in white dwarf.) However for now the generic codex works fine, it is also difficult to represent the individual legions without making a host of new units (which the designers have a limited number of) so that Iron warriors don't happen again.

If you wanted the legions a sort of traits systum could have been made. BUT that would have made them too much like marines with spiky bits for my taste. I believe this was the best option for now.


While I appreciate the addition of Undivided daemons, getting rid of the marked ones was unnecessary and completely unwanted. There excuse of 'not enough space' is a pile of dung, theres 1 page for lesser daemons, 1 for greaters and 1 for the fast units. Thats 3 extra pages, ontop of the 104 already there. Incidentally, there are reportedly lots of pages that are basically a big picture whch, while nice and pretty, should NOT take the place of a chaos cornerstone.

Codex daemons is coming out. So don't worry about this for too long. As it is probable that you will be able to mix daemons as you can do with Fantasy chaos.

I personally love the new chaos dex, just because it makes you think a bit harder doesn't make it necessarily bad. Also, I was personally a bit board of seeing all foot nurgle armies or berserker hoards or daemons bombs, from the same players. With the new dex I think that chaos players have far more options without being restricted by legion/Mark specific tactics.

FiendishTau
30-08-2007, 12:54
Just a few thoughts I've had about these issues and the overall public opinion of the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines in general.

10 Men for Heavy Weapons: -

Well, in honesty, change has to start somewhere. It must be remembered that this isn't just for background, it's for simple game balance too.
They appear to have recognised the ubiquitous 6 man las-plas squads for what they were somewhere around when they were writing Codex: DA, and as such, every Marine codex from them onwards is going to have these weapons restrictions. They weren't picking on Chaos in particular in this respect, I think. Heck, you still get to choose the exact number of men in each squad. And have MEq hordes, unlike regular SM squads.

Daemons: -

Well...there is a codex devoted to them coming out next year...is that worth waiting for? I think there's larger plans afoot for Daemons in general, a much wider scope in the way they're going to play, but, in the short term, this seems to have required the sacrifice of more comprehensive daemon units in this book....

In general (including the Traitor Legions issue): -

Yes, I think the army list has lost an awful lot of options. However, in all honesty, I think that most people can agree that the old Codex: Chaos gave players far and away more options, upgrades, tricks and abilities than any other army you care to mention.

Who else had essentially four armies, each with their own playstyle, in the one book, over and above the standard list? Who else had even more distinct army lists (IW, NL, WB, AL) for those who didn't fancy any of the big four or the basic list? Who else could upgrade their characters to (seemingly ubiquitous, it must be said) monstrous creatures and give them enough wargear to make them fly around the battlefield, kick butt in close combat, and make them nigh unkillable? Who else could give lowly unit champions extra To, St, or At on a whim? Who else could give almost every unit any number of Veteran Skills, again on a whim? Who else could stick so many upgrades onto a single vehicle, raising its armour, making it immune to the lower end of the damage tables, and so on and so forth?

I realise that these options gave the army character. However, I submit that all of these wonderful options also gave Chaos an advantage of versatility and flexibility which no other army could match, and that not all of Chaos' character has been lost. The models haven't changed in their theme. The units from the old book are still around. The background focus may have shifted from the original Traitor Legions, but given that the members of these legions are meant to be elite 10,000 year old veterans of constant conflict and war, each one a mighty champion in their own right, could one forgive GW for giving the rest of the 40K races a chance?

I am sure that there will be issues that arise with the new book, as there are with all books. In the end, even the Dev Team are human and make mistakes. However, simply coming to the conclusion that a book is a write-off simply because it doesn't give you the same experience and the same (inordinate) number of options as the last book (which was not by any means the purest paragon of balanced gameplay) just...well...seems to me a bit callous and self-defeating, as well as putting off the Dev Team from paying *any* heed to what the players are saying.

Anyway, have a nice day :)

EDIT: Lol, what PMTN said basically :P

mortus
30-08-2007, 12:56
Just got hold of a copy of the Dex and I thought I wouldn't like it, however it is a grower. Yes they have introduced restrictions, but looking at it they offer you more choice in how you play.

I'm seriously looking at revamping my IW's and starting a 1000 son army from the initial read through.

As PMTN says you have to think how you play your army and what you take, challenge is half the fun of playing.

leonmallett
30-08-2007, 12:57
Ello there,

As everyone knows, a new chaos codex is about to hit the shelves. And quite frankly, some of the choices made in it are disgusting.

Disgusting? Harsh words or did you just feel like having an unsubstantiated rant?


-The whole 10-men-for-a-heavy thing

I can understand this for loyalists, what with the codex astartes and all. However, the loyalists dont use it, chaos do. Why the hell do chaos have to follow this rule, when the ultrasmurfs (the ******** WRITERS of the book) get to keep their 6 man las-plas combos? I mean, what possible benefit is there to this aside from following a book?

It isn't about following codex structure. It is about deployment of equipment and munitions. Want more than 1 heavy choice or special weapon for 10 men? Take a Havoc squad or Chosen.


-Getting rid of the legions

Lets compare Blood Angels to Black Templars- both of them are fairly similar, but still different. Theyre pretty ferocious for marines, both like to get up close to the enemy etc. And they both recieve special codexes from the normal marines. Unique units, restructured lists, army special rules etc. But at the heart of it, they are still following the codex, and are almost identical from a TT perspective. And yet, GW thinks there are more differences between them than there are between Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, or World Eaters and Thousand sons. IMO, the chaos legions are far more diverse than any of the chapters, and so they should have rules to reflect that.

The option remains open to do future codices. What has been removed is the stupidly unbalanced like of the Iron Warriors list. You can stil organise armies thematically to represent most of the previous choices, with obvious examples like Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion aside, without the lack of balance issues prevalent before. Suddenly Thousand Sons and Khornate forces are more viable, which is a good thing. So are you angry that the Traitor Legions haven't got their own codices, or are you just angry?


-Daemons

While I appreciate the addition of Undivided daemons, getting rid of the marked ones was unnecessary and completely unwanted. There excuse of 'not enough space' is a pile of dung, theres 1 page for lesser daemons, 1 for greaters and 1 for the fast units. Thats 3 extra pages, ontop of the 104 already there. Incidentally, there are reportedly lots of pages that are basically a big picture whch, while nice and pretty, should NOT take the place of a chaos cornerstone.

Full page art has been a conerstone of the books for some time. 104 pages is big compared to every codex since the most recent Space Marines book. The approach taken emphasizes Chaos marines, which is funny considering the army in question. At a guess Codex Daemons (next year, apparently) will emphasize Daemons. Want Deamons, take a Daemons army. Want Chaos Space Marines? Well then.


-Just my thoughts, and im aware that not everyone will agree with me, but I had to get that off my chest. In short, give chaos back its uniqueness, instead of just pointy marines with half the equipment. :mad:

/rant over

You are right, it was a rant, and not everyone agrees, and the list is more open in many ways than regular marines who cannot have: Defilers, Chaos Dreadnoughts, Greater Deamons, Lesser Daemons, units with Marks of Chaos, Terminators with as varied weapon fits (Deathwing aside), Daemon Princes, Daemon Weapons, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Fearless troops. Let alone the loyalist weapons, vehicles and options that Chaos Space Marines do not have, as well as not having ATSKNF. Not at all identical and quite unique.

pookie
30-08-2007, 13:00
Ello there,

As everyone knows, a new chaos codex is about to hit the shelves. And quite frankly, some of the choices made in it are disgusting.

-Lets compare Blood Angels to Black Templars- both of them are fairly similar, but still different.

no they aint, one's a fairly codex chapter, the other almost caused a schism because it wouldnt follow the codex. just because both are Close Combat orintated doesnt mean they are similar.

the new Chaos Codex, shows renegade marines, these will have followed the codex until they 'turned' so its resonable to say they would be fairly similar, you also need to remeber that the SM Codex is due an update to bring it in line with the BA/DA Codice

DarthSte
30-08-2007, 13:02
Have had my new Codex CSM for over a week now, so this is my opinions on it all...

-The whole 10-men-for-a-heavy thing: I can understand this for loyalists, what with the codex astartes and all. However, the loyalists dont use it, chaos do. Why the hell do chaos have to follow this rule, when the ultrasmurfs (the ******** WRITERS of the book) get to keep their 6 man las-plas combos? I mean, what possible benefit is there to this aside from following a book?
I agree with you on this one, but as somebody else has said, DA and BA have the new format. And with the rumours of Codex: Space Marines: Redux, I'd think that we'll all end up in the same boat. Though I'd rather that CSMs were more chaotic with their unti organisation than the Codex ones...

-Getting rid of the legions: Lets compare Blood Angels to Black Templars- both of them are fairly similar, but still different. Theyre pretty ferocious for marines, both like to get up close to the enemy etc. And they both recieve special codexes from the normal marines. Unique units, restructured lists, army special rules etc. But at the heart of it, they are still following the codex, and are almost identical from a TT perspective. And yet, GW thinks there are more differences between them than there are between Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, or World Eaters and Thousand sons. IMO, the chaos legions are far more diverse than any of the chapters, and so they should have rules to reflect that.
The idea was to show a list that was a generic renegade list. Like the generic list for Imperial Space Marines. The cults will be back in some form sooner or later. I wouldn't worry too much. As you say the differences between Death Guard and Emperors Children are much more significant than those between Blood Angels and Black Templars, the game designers aren't stupid - they will have noticed that too!

-Daemons: While I appreciate the addition of Undivided daemons, getting rid of the marked ones was unnecessary and completely unwanted. There excuse of 'not enough space' is a pile of dung, theres 1 page for lesser daemons, 1 for greaters and 1 for the fast units. Thats 3 extra pages, ontop of the 104 already there. Incidentally, there are reportedly lots of pages that are basically a big picture whch, while nice and pretty, should NOT take the place of a chaos cornerstone.
I think Jervis mentioned in a recent "Standard bearer" that there would be a Daemons codex. The reasoning as to why you can only summon generic and slightly weaker daemons is explained in the book, briefly. And I think the opinion was that it stream lined the list - without meaning people (like me) would have ended up with a dozen or more useless models - as removing them entirely would have done.
As you also say, there are some full page illustrations, which don't enhance the rules at all. But they do improve the feeling of the book. I think all of the codeces have full page illustraions don't they?

Thorny
30-08-2007, 13:11
Right, chaos by nature is varied theres a hint in the name so why shouldnt they have lots of options. Secondly there are 4 chaos powers and each is very different from each other, do you really think a slaaneshi marine would fight alongside a khorne berserker? No way. Thirdly a chaos lord is meant to be nearly unstoppable, he has the favour of the gods. The new dex is just the da dex with a few different units and options, if i wanted a souless army i go play a vanilla marine army, Chaos is special its different from every other army. The new dex is for 8 year olds who want mean marines who might scare a guardsmen a bit more. Well thats my rant about the new pointless dex.

leonmallett
30-08-2007, 13:20
Right, chaos by nature is varied theres a hint in the name so why shouldnt they have lots of options. Secondly there are 4 chaos powers and each is very different from each other, do you really think a slaaneshi marine would fight alongside a khorne berserker? No way. Thirdly a chaos lord is meant to be nearly unstoppable, he has the favour of the gods. The new dex is just the da dex with a few different units and options, if i wanted a souless army i go play a vanilla marine army, Chaos is special its different from every other army. The new dex is for 8 year olds who want mean marines who might scare a guardsmen a bit more. Well thats my rant about the new pointless dex.


If you produced a list favouring any of the power-specific marks it will play very differently from a list favouring another mark. Hardly vanilla. :rolleyes:

Shibboleth
30-08-2007, 13:21
Mozzamanx, all your concerns are addressed in the 'Gav Explanation' thread here in 40K General, by Gav Thorpe, who explains...
I think it's still on the first page.

LawrencePhillips
30-08-2007, 13:45
-The whole 10-men-for-a-heavy thing

I can understand this for loyalists, what with the codex astartes and all. However, the loyalists dont use it, chaos do...

In time, Loyalists will follow suit. Its a game balencing act to stop mini-maxing. It also encourages the use of Dev/Havocs. Take a Havoc squad instead.



-Getting rid of the legions

Legions havn't gone, the codex is just generic enough to let you field whatever you want without overpowering on certain units. If you want to play fluff you can but face it, marked terminators were overpowered.



-Daemons

Yes daemons have got weaker, but we're promised them back in another codex. The generic daemons are still pritty useful, if more expensive.

Comparing Chaos, to the numerous space marine codii is unreasonable. There will always many marine codii becasue its far more popular than any other. Comparing it to the eldar, tau or upcoming ork codii is far better, these codii have all been improcved, balenced and yes, cut out some extreme options.

The new codex is a definate improvement in terms of balence and fluff. For a codex, its huge and full of great reading and background, and no longer just contcentrated on the first founding chapters but newly turned ones as well. Personally I love it and I think the way the new codeii are being written is much better to the dated 2nd/3rd ed way.

Voltaire
30-08-2007, 13:52
You, like everyone else, seem to forget a few things in relation to the new book. First and foremost, Chaos isn't finished. There is a daemon codex coming next year with all the fixes. Patience for this will be well rewarded. Until then, make do with generic daemons.

In regard to legions. What is stopping you from actually using the list to represent the legions you want? I'm sure that a lot of people who play Iron Warriors are simply going to load up on Dreadnoughts and Vindicators while Alpha legion simply go veteran heavy so they can infiltrate. The list allows the legions, you just have to think about it, instead of it being a no brainer. Surely thinking about making a list should be something encouraged afterall?

Thousand Sons, Khorne Beserkers, Emperors Children and the Plague Marines are all separate troop choices. Nothing is stopping you from using one of them as your sole troop type. This constitues a legion doesn't it?

The SM codex issue of the las-plas min-max is something that has been addressed since the SM codex came out. The reason of the Smurfs being able to do this tactic is exactly why people are predicting a SM redux.

sebster
30-08-2007, 15:19
Ello there,

As everyone knows, a new chaos codex is about to hit the shelves. And quite frankly, some of the choices made in it are disgusting.

We not only know about it, we have about a half dozen threads floating around discussing it. Nothing in your post adds any additional insight over those other threads, and I'm just not sure at all why you thought another thread was necessary.