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View Full Version : Woah. Knights of the realm have 1+sv in combat? What to do playing TK?



DoomedDiceThrower
30-08-2007, 13:34
Throwing pros and cons of different armies around in my mind. My friends and me will start Fantasy somewhere around next spring. Now, Tomb Kings seem fluff-wise quite lovable to me (however, I'm prepared for their apparently huge underpoweredness in <1000p games and their reputation to be quite unforgiving to beginners).

One of my friends (let's call him "Nemesis") thinks about starting Bretonians (of all things!). He won't make something cheesy like RAF, but still, I'm highly intimidated. Especially after I became aware that Knights of the Realm (and probably Grail knights too) get a +1 save in close combat. Is that right? Heavy armour, handweapon with shield, barded warhorse = 1+ sv against models in front...

What do I do with TK to counter this? Do I mainly rely on a high number of weak attacks, hoping some break through, or do I rely on a limited number of really strong attacks which heavily modify the saving throw? Is TK magic practicable with the magic defense of the maidens? And are the catapults and the blessed skeleton bowmen of any use against blessed knights?

Of what I can imagine now, I think I'd use Tomb Guard, Ushabti or the Bonegiant against the horselovers. Maybe also scorpions?

I know all rules I need to know, as well as both involved army books. I'd just need people to help me to get a better bigger picture. I think I still fail to take all things correctly into account.

EDIT: can Priest make the casket of souls "fire" twice a round, by using that one incantation which lets you shoot twice? I suppose... not?

Makaber
30-08-2007, 13:39
They can't use the hand weapon and shield combinations while on horseback, so they have a 2+ save.

You're not as screwed as you seem to think, though. Your skeletons will never break from his charges, and with some magic, you're highly mobile. Furthermore, his units have a relatively low unit strength, so they break easily enough from fear. Skull catapults are good in that they ignore armour, but because of the large base size of cavalry, you're not getting too many models under the template.

guillaume
30-08-2007, 13:53
Yes they only have a 2+ save.

I dont play TB but have been on the receiving end several times.

To deal with heavy armour, you can use the followings:

Ushabtis: at WS4, 9 attacks st6 can kill about 4-5 knights in a turn. Against st6 the knights will be down to 5+ armour save: much more likely to fail.

Catapult: remember that with the incantation of righteousness, you can get your shooty units to shoot twice in a turn. So can catapults. Two catapult in a 2000pts game is deadly as in the first few turns (when catapults are at their bests) you can shoot 4 times in a turn. Imagine that is 8 catapult shots after turn 2. With that many shots, you should get pretty accurate very quickly. Of course, at St4 No armour save, the T3 knights will easily fall.

Magic: The casket of souls Light of death is deadly and also allows no armour saves.

Clearly your tactic is to kill them before they hit you. Obviously when a full unit of grail knights hit your skeletons, you're likely to loose.

skavenguy13
30-08-2007, 14:06
You either need to bypass their huge save, or use your unbreakable and fear rules.
For example, he'll often need fear tests to charge you. And sometimes if you charge, he will run or hit on 6.

And small blocks of skeletons will be useless, but large blocks will be great because they can jam a unit for ages. Plus if he misses a lot, you have a chance to auto-break!

The catapult and the casket are great because they ignore their incredible save.

Don't expect too much on units relying on low-to-medium strength to win. Like archers, tomb guards and chariots. Most of the time, he'll still have a 2+ or 3+ save plus a 6+ ward. You'll probably end up killing a single knight at best most of the time.

Urgat
30-08-2007, 14:06
Mmmh... I don't know the TK list, do they have things like scorpion swarms or things like that? Because no matter how hard you hit, if they charge, whatever is in front is in for some big trouble. Once they've charged, bretonians ain't that scary, and you don't need hitting power so much. What you need is stuff to dampen the charges or completly disrupt them. For instance, my all gob army does better than a regular O&G army, and an all orc force (even with trolls, giants and what not) won't nearly do as well.

RipFlag
30-08-2007, 17:02
If you can survive the charge form bretonians, you are usually in the clear after that. You being undead, will obviously not break, but be careful not to be wiped out. Have some anvil units, like skeli's with 3 ranks, with magic i am sure you can replenish your ranks, than have charoits or Ushabtis. flank him. If you take Chariots be carefull with them, do not get charged with them, because if do... well you will find out. However the Ushabits should be able to survive a charge and still do some serious damage in response.

If he has the lady's blessing it which gives him +5 ward save vs Strg +5 you will have a "fun" time trying to kill em. But good luck in destroying those pompous, pretentious, preening, sniveling, whining, "honorable" knights

pcgamer72
30-08-2007, 17:27
Ushabtis: at WS4, 9 attacks st6 can kill about 4-5 knights in a turn. Against st6 the knights will be down to 5+ armour save: much more likely to fail.


I think Ushabti are very useful against Brettonians as well (especially considering that you know they are going to be there the next round striking back at I4), but I think you are overestimating their knight killing abilities.

By my calculations, 3 Ushabti will kill 1.666 Bret Knights per combat. This is still nice though and with a little luck can put a damper on a unit.

warlord hack'a
30-08-2007, 17:49
he can only win on the charge, onced bogged down he will lose (in the 2nd round of combat no extra attacks due to the lance formation and he is down to S3 (lances only give +2 S when charging). So if your block of skellies is big enough he will have problems.

A clever Bret player knows this so will combine the charge of 2 or even three lances on one unit. This you must prevent. If you can manage that then you will win, simply keep some countercharge units close to your main blocks of skeletons. So the whole idea of your army will not be to hurt him in close combat, it will be to receive the charge and then minimize losses on your end. So simply give you skellies hand weapon and shield and light armour for a 4+ save, will not help you much in the first round of combat but it will help in the 2nd.. Then simply autobreak him due to rank bonus and outnumbering..

warlord hack'a
30-08-2007, 18:22
a simple sum: 25 skellies with hw, shield, light armour, musician and a banner cost 230 points. For 226 points the brets get 9 knight errants with full command and the war banner. Now afaik brets still get full rank bonus when 3 wide (they should fix that asap).

Brets charge:
8 knight attacks kill 3.7 skellies
7 horse attacks kill 1.16 skellies
result: 5 dead skellies, none can fight back
static CR knights: +1 banner, +1 warbanner, +2 ranks
static CR skellies: +1 banner, +1 outnumber, +3 ranks

total result 1st round: +4 win for the brets, so 4 more skellies die (?)
leaves 16 skellies.
your round: resummon some skellies (you should dominate the magic phase, that's a must for tomb kings..), let's say 4, gives 20 skellies in total

round 2: brets go first, knights and horses together kill 1.16 skellie, 4 remaining skellies kill 0.16 knight, so in total +1 for the knights.
CR knights: +2 ranks, +1 banner, +1 warbanner
CR skellies: +3 ranks, +1 banner, +1 outnumber
result: draw.

and this can go on and on and on. Thigns will look different when you manage to remove one knight from this unit as he then loses a rank bonus and as soon as you win, it's autobreak and bye bye..

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-08-2007, 18:28
Skulls of the Foe, and Carrion are your best friends against Bretonnians...

Smack a unit around with a Screaming Skull or two, and with any luck, they will Panic, and flee, straight through the Carrion you neatly moved right behind his unit! Before you know it, a big hole has opened up in his line. Theoretically, if you take a large (10 strong) unit of Carrion, you can cover, umm, 30 odd inches of the board in this trap, allowing your potential 4 shots a turn from 2 Catapults to sow mayhem within his ranks. Hurrah!

Oh, and Tomb Guard are **** funny against Brets too! mmm! Killing Blow!

warlord hack'a
30-08-2007, 18:37
so you see, plenty of choices ;-)

Von Wibble
30-08-2007, 20:59
Word of warning - don't take the casket - the damsel's MR1 applies to the dispel roll for all units as long as its in LOS. Therefore Skull chukkas are good. But don't underestimate the bone giant either. Although pricy he will not die against the knights in a hurry.

Tomb Guard are useful with killing blow and more importantly imo, T4. Against non grail and no errantry banner thats -1 to be wounded.

But the main suggestion not already mentioned is using a few small cheap units to redirect knight charges (ideally into the charge zone of your Ushabti and Bone Giant).

Skeleton Light Horsemen with M8, low cost, fast cav and bows are the best you have in this regard. Even without the ability to march they can block, harass and generally annoy his knights. They are nowhere near as useless as many people make out.

A canny Bret player will use Pegasus knights and mounted squires to stop this. Against the latter shooting will work. Against the former you need to be more careful, but without support they will fall in combat to many of your units. As long as you don't let them charge in at the same time as a unit of knights charges (easier said than done) you'll do fine.

sephiroth87
31-08-2007, 18:18
Tomb Scorpions wreck my Brets. They tunnel and hit the back and sides of my lines, using killing blow and the high strengh to knock down a few knights. And they hold me up for a couple of turns, which keeps me from doing combined charges. So, so annoying, but really smart...

Chiron
31-08-2007, 19:29
Scorpions coming up on on turn 2 and charging the rear of the knight units should do some harm, especially if you have a unit or 2 of Ushabti ready to hit them in the front

It'd be hard to pull off but it'd be worth it to see his face

W0lf
31-08-2007, 20:27
just make sure you can get counter charges.

Brettonians are all about breaking their enemy on the charge. Against unbreakable units they cant do this often.

Just take units of 30 skellies with hand weapons + sheilds then two 3-4 man strong ushabti for counter charging and watch his knights die.

Scorpions/ushabti/bone giants will all cause major chaos if they get the charge. Use your skellie units to pin the knights so they can achieve this.

Alathir
02-09-2007, 02:42
Bretonnians have alot of trouble against the undead. Unbreakable units hold their charges and their powerful magic overwhelms the mediocre Bretonnian magic defenses. My friend who plays Tomb Kings always takes a big unit of Tomb Guard (20-25) with the (dreaded) Icon of Rakaph - and occassionally throw a Tomb King with the Destroyer of Eternities in there for kicks. They do very well against Brets. He will sometimes even take two units, so I would definitely recommend them.

Always take a Screaming Skull Catapult! These things have cost me the game so many times in the past its painful, instant panic tests at -1 leadership is mean.

Bone Giant... hmm, no I wouldn't be inclined to take him. The knights still have a 5+ armour save and a 5+ ward save against his attacks. Two catapults would be my advice.