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thechosenone
30-08-2007, 20:57
Just curious how races that aren't part of the imperium travel through the warp. Orks? Tau, without psykers how do they get around? Chaos what are they using, wizards or wicked navigators, Squats while they still lived, were they even psychic capable?

I know Tyranids just sort of go at sub light speeds and hope to bump into something tasty and Necrons can just move at faster then light speed


Help me out!?

Drogmir
30-08-2007, 21:11
Orks spread by Fungus that cling on to passerby Space Ships

Tau don't have faster than light tech and so they have to stay on the eastern fringe.

Chaos is well Chaos they are the warp. But they mostly come out of the Eye of Terror and big gaps between reality and the warp.

Dalenator
30-08-2007, 21:45
Tau: they skim the warp , not actually entering it but staying out of realspace. faster than sublight.
Chaos: wicked sorcerers plot routes using foul sorcery.
Imperium:Navigators plot routes using astronomican as a beacon.
Orks: travel in hulks that they infest and then live on until they hit a planet.
Eldar/Dark Eldar: Webway portals that cover the entire galaxy. Instantanious travel.

Khaine's Messenger
30-08-2007, 21:52
Orks?

Contrary to popular belief, the Orks can make and maintain warp drives as well as guide their ships in the warp. Exactly how they do so is up in the air (chained wyrdboyz, eg), but they can.


Tau, without psykers how do they get around?

By bending space using warp tech. It's described as "bouncing off the warp" or such, and the Tau really don't like the warp (per MedV background, warp research is now banned in the Empire). They can go FTL this way, but speeds are less than "Imperial average," although one wonders what the Imperial average is, since it is possible to make warp jumps without Navigators if you want to seriously not deal with the Navis Nobilite.


Chaos what are they using, wizards or wicked navigators, Squats while they still lived, were they even psychic capable?

Chaos uses whatever they can. Daemons, sorcery, rogue Navigators, etc. Squats were psychic-capable, but generally had to be seriously old, from what I recall, to actually take advantage of it. As members of the Imperium, they would have had access to Navigator contracts, though, and failing that, they could probably do four-lightyear warp jumps.


I know Tyranids just sort of go at sub light speeds and hope to bump into something tasty

Tyranids can and do use the Warp for travel.

thechosenone
30-08-2007, 23:02
Great info, the orks were my real curiousity because the other stuff i had kind of conjectured about. I knew they could travel with more accuracy then just rolling through the warp. Now i need to know, som elost brainboy talent enslaved navigators who knows but i want to

Arcanus
31-08-2007, 08:31
Orks spread by Fungus that cling on to passerby Space Ships

Tau don't have faster than light tech and so they have to stay on the eastern fringe.

Chaos is well Chaos they are the warp. But they mostly come out of the Eye of Terror and big gaps between reality and the warp.

Well the there are more anamolies like the Eye of Terror where the Warp and Material Universe meet. So they could just spew out those holes. But I think they use Warp travel because their ships are usualy modified Imperial Ships

Norminator
31-08-2007, 08:37
The Nicassar (Tau allies), if I remember correctly, can travel in the same way as Imperial ships (i.e. they serve as Navigators), as can the Kroot. However neither (again, IIRC) have given their technology to the Tau.

There are a few notes about Ahriman that suggest after he attempted to get into the Black Library he now has limited access to the webway, and can use it to travel.

izandral
31-08-2007, 10:43
eldar are also capable of generic warp travel but they use it only for the shortest of jumps and only when absolutely necessary

Ikkaan
31-08-2007, 14:43
Orks spread by Fungus that cling on to passerby Space Ships

Tau don't have faster than light tech and so they have to stay on the eastern fringe.

Chaos is well Chaos they are the warp. But they mostly come out of the Eye of Terror and big gaps between reality and the warp.

Orks spread by Fungus that clings on other ships ? Where did you get that ? Orks have their own ships, and ork spores donīt survive in space.

The Tau do have FTL technology, but lack navigators, so they have to make calculated jumps with their own technology.

Chaos...if and when chaos forces use the warp they employ traitor navigators or completely chaotic methods.

Nicassar do not have FTL travel. The nicassar dhow is propelled by psychic powers of the nicassar themselves (thats why the iom never detected any engines aboard their ships). For FTL travel, the nicassar depend on the tau to transport their dhows.

The pestilent 1
31-08-2007, 15:07
The Necrons use Inertialess drives to cpmpletely bypass relativety altogether.

Using a bit of Warhammery Pseudo science it would be safe to assume that they make their ships mass-less, thereby happily getting around the problem's of FTL.

Supremearchmarshal
31-08-2007, 20:08
Orks actually had Navigators in Rogue Trader days - they were powerful psykers, but weren't called Wierdboyz simply because the name wasn't invented yet...
Any race can utilize warp travel, but without navigators they're blind in the Warp and thus only able to make very short jumps.

Bregalad
31-08-2007, 23:15
Kroot learned Warp travel by eating a BigMac ... erm ... BigMek on their homeworld. Possible only because the Ork "knowledge" of Warp travel is somehow in the genes. So Kroot can't give their knowledge to the Tau 8although Tau Earth caste could investigate the WarSpheres, I guess, but after Medusa V they won't like to do that). Kroot warp travel is limited, as they only can stear to inhabited world, which is fine for their uses.

Small tidbit on Eldar: They use their old "webway", that is an old system of "roads" and gates through the warp that protects them from the perils of the warp (as Chaos would like to digest every Eldar soul they can lay hands on). So their warp travel is limited to the webway (which is quite extensive), but at the same time safer. It is also a common way to land troops on planets, via some gate on the craftworld and one installed on the planet ages ago.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
01-09-2007, 00:58
The Necrons use Inertialess drives to cpmpletely bypass relativety altogether.

Using a bit of Warhammery Pseudo science it would be safe to assume that they make their ships mass-less, thereby happily getting around the problem's of FTL.

They also have access to other dimensions too, allthough if they use it in space-travel, im not sure or not.

Captain_Ardias
01-09-2007, 05:07
the problem with an inertialess drive (or one that makes your mass-less) is that you still have to obey the laws of physics and the speed of light. The way I always thought they got around between stars was their nearly ubiquitous teleportation abilities, then use the I-drives to be able to move around in system.

As to the tau, I believe it was in the last codex that the tau use a warp 'wing' and powerful engines -more powerful than imperial plasma reactors from what I remember- to essentially dip into the warp. Since they aren't really a true warp drive though, the ship is always being pushed out and the warp wing is what allows them to stay for short periods of time. The speed that could be attained was 1/4 of an imperial cruiser again because they weren't truly in the warp and weren't being pushed along by its tides (that, and the lack of navigators as mentioned before).

As to the Imperial methods of warping, the only oddity is the ability to make short warp jumps without a navigator, on the order of a few lightyears or between a few close systems. This is also how the orks navigate, short quick trips through the warp to nearby systems that they can inhabit or attack.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 05:52
They can go FTL this way, but speeds are less than "Imperial average," although one wonders what the Imperial average is, since it is possible to make warp jumps without Navigators if you want to seriously not deal with the Navis Nobilite.
Now that is a darned interesting question...

Kage

grickherder
01-09-2007, 09:00
I know Tyranids just sort of go at sub light speeds and hope to bump into something tasty

The nids definite do not just "hope to bump into something tasty." The codex before the latest did too good of a job in undoing some old fluff*. The latest codex has restored it somewhat. The tyranids are not a mindless eating swarm. The Hivemind is an intelligence. They/it plan where they/it are going, use the call of their genestealer cults to guide them to ready worlds and even custom design creatures and forces for the situation they might find there.

As for traveling in the warp, they do that, but they push it out of the way to do so. They make a shadow in the warp.

* In the oldest fluff, Tyranids even had slave races that could communicate with other races. As well as using genestealer cults to pacify planets for their arrival, they once even used diplomacy and causing civil wars and whatnot. 3rd edition was a major dumbing down of the tyranids. Thankfully the latest codex undoes this atleast some what.

Jade_Dragon
01-09-2007, 16:09
The Nicassar (Tau allies), if I remember correctly, can travel in the same way as Imperial ships (i.e. they serve as Navigators), as can the Kroot. However neither (again, IIRC) have given their technology to the Tau.

How does that fit into the 'greater good'? I mean the Tau have to be aware of the Kroot warspheres for example.

Tastyfish
01-09-2007, 17:45
Now that is a darned interesting question...

Kage

There's a lot of interesting questions surrounding Tau warp travel thinking about it - though I thought the 1/5th and 1/3rd Imperial speeds was mentioned in a comparison between a Hero and a Lunar class.

However, isn't there something akin to Starwars' Mass Shadows caused by large objects (i.e Suns etc)? Warp transit points are always at the edge of systems, forcing ships to use conventional means to travel in system, which I'm sure had something to do with the risk of ending up a sun if you tried to exit the warp too close to them.
It could just be the risk of this happening, but a deviation from your intend exit point in real space of half the radius of a solar system is a pretty serious thing.

So if this is something important that Imperial ships have to consider, what does that mean for the Tau who's bizarre system of travel is due to them using their gravity generators to keep them in the warp? Might the slower than previously thought travel times be compensated by them being able to drop further insystem than an Imperial craft could, due to a much more complete knowledge of the warp's interaction with gravity?

The pestilent 1
01-09-2007, 19:55
the problem with an inertialess drive (or one that makes your mass-less) is that you still have to obey the laws of physics and the speed of light. The way I always thought they got around between stars was their nearly ubiquitous teleportation abilities, then use the I-drives to be able to move around in system.

With no mass the speed of light (Or rather, the laws that prevent us from technically reeaching it) are a bit irrelevant.
E-MC^2 Doesn't matter when M is nothing.

Edit; Higgs field, that was the fellow I was thinking of.
We can bypass it (Well. We can muck it about and stand it up at Prom at least) so the infinetly powerful Star lords should.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 22:18
...though I thought the 1/5th and 1/3rd Imperial speeds was mentioned in a comparison between a Hero and a Lunar class.
Amusingly enough, I've long since worked on a principle that a calculated warp jump takes approximately four-times as long as a Navigated warp jump. Oh the joys. ;)


However, isn't there something akin to Starwars' Mass Shadows caused by large objects (i.e Suns etc)?
The Warp Zone, yes. We have very little information about it, to be fair. You can find my own personal interpretation of it on the Anargo Wiki in the RPG > GURPS Rogue Trader > Warp Travel Game Mechanics section. Suffice to say, though, for something the size of the Terra system, around 18.26 AU defines the warp zone, i.e. the point at which it becomes 'safe' to engage your warp drive.

For me, though, the Tau system doesn't offer any advantage in terms of bypassing this point. On the other hand, "natural" warp gates are another point altogether.

Kage

lapis_lazuli
02-09-2007, 15:48
As Khaine's Messenger and Captain_Ardias have astutely pointed out, one does not require a Navigator or Evil *gasp* Navigator for a trip into the Empyrean Realm. As long as your ship has the equipment to breach the material universe, generate a Geller Field and perform some method of astrometric calculation (anything from an inorganic cogitator to a bound daemon) you can plot short jumps. As Kage notes, long journeys undertaken in this manner are painfully slow, but it's fine for five light-year hops to nearby inhabited systems.

Kage2020
02-09-2007, 21:30
And completely incidentally, the "Geller Field" is something that has always existed in my interpretation of the warp -- it just didn't have a name other than "warp sails." :) I must admit that it is part of the reason - my own bias, that is - why I have never believed the idea that if you turn off the Geller Field then your up the creek without a paddle...

Kage

MadDogMike
04-09-2007, 07:06
On the Kroot having warp, I remember there was some bit in BFG about the warsphere where it mentions whatever the Kroot use for warp navigation is only drawn to worlds with fully fuctional eco-systems; apparently they're almost "migratory" in their movements. It does say that they keep the method secret from their employers, which given that they apparently also maintain a large number of them acting as mercenaries secretly might mean they either pretend to be incapable of any travel beyond the Tau's method (i.e. they show up at the same area but pretend they got their at the Tau's speed) or more likely make it a point to hitch a ride with the Tau when they're actually acting in support. The Nicassar interestingly enough don't use warp travel at all despite being psychic, so they either go with the Tau or simply hibernate through real space. The Demiurg of course aren't really members of the Tau Empire yet so much as "valued trading partners" who occasionally fight alongside the Tau, so their not sharing warp drive makes sense.

In the case of orks, I suspect they probably can sense ork worlds through whatever psychic link apparently permeates their race, so they might navigate using their own worlds as reference points. That might make spreading to new areas tricky (which might explain why a lot of mobs don't even screw with ork ships and just hitch a ride on a space hulk; if you're semi-random anyway, might as well travel in comfort) but would have one nice effect. I'd bet you areas of high ork combat would be clearly visible as such due to the heightened WAAAGH of the orks there, so other orks would be able to travel there more easily. Tyranids might guide themselves in similar fashion (since like orks they really don't care where they go or going back the way they came so long as what they want is on the other end) with the genestealers of course guiding them to the most valuable/vulnerable biomass sources.

Eldar on the rare occasions they use the Warp instead of the Webway might actually navigate in the same fashion as Frank Herbert's Navigators in Dune did, by predicting the "best" route to the desired destination via precognition. This is probably one of the major roles for most Eldar on the Path of the Seer - since canonically Farseers are unusual by being "lost" on the path, so there has to be some role for those others who don't get locked besides warlocks. Non-lost Seers probably lack the power for wide-ranging prediction the Farseers do just based on the name alone, but I imagine predicting a simple path for what would be a relatively short journey normally is likely within their range.

Another thing to keep in mind when it comes to aliens navigating is I don't get the impression the Astronomicon is encrypted or similar; anyone able to receive it can use it, so it's entirely possible aliens navigate by it for convenience as well. I also gathered that it was the scale of the Astronomican's reach and not the general idea of a psychic beacon that made it extraordinary; the fact the Navigators were created long before the Astronomican and the Imperium lasted quite a long time without difficulty without it suggests it's quite possible to make psychic beacons besides the Astronomican, they just aren't nearly as wide-ranged or unjammable. So other races (and probably the Imperium itself) could have lots of local beacons they navigate by.

elvinltl
04-09-2007, 11:41
I thought Webways are tubes in the Warp connecting places? These tubes are safe and protected from the horrors of the Warp and attempts to travel through the warp is unattainable without the webways?

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 12:27
This is probably one of the major roles for most Eldar on the Path of the Seer...
Not quite sure about that one. While it is entirely reasonable that some Seers might be precognitive, it doesn't mean that all Seers are just "lesser Farseers."

Kage

MadDogMike
05-09-2007, 04:04
I thought Webways are tubes in the Warp connecting places? These tubes are safe and protected from the horrors of the Warp and attempts to travel through the warp is unattainable without the webways?

The Eldar primarily use the Webway, but in places where it doesn't reach due to damage or other problems they can travel through the Warp. For obvious reasons they aren't exactly fond of it, but they certainly can do it.


Not quite sure about that one. While it is entirely reasonable that some Seers might be precognitive, it doesn't mean that all Seers are just "lesser Farseers."

Uh, not to put too fine a point on it, but just going by the name alone "seer" by definition means someone with extrasensory perception of some sort. That and going by the example of the Exarchs those who are "lost" on a path tend generally to merely be stronger versions of the "regular" path members, which would suggest Farseers are merely an extra-strong version of the common Seers. They probably aren't all precogs of course, but then again I doubt all the Seers are ship navigators anyway, it would only be those whose gifts are inclined appropriately who would do the job. Again, this is all assuming there isn't some sort of dedicated Path of the Navigator or something, but in terms of what would make for a good psychic navigator the Seers seem likely to possess such traits. Besides, there has to be SOMEONE on the path besides Farseers and warlocks :D.

Captain_Ardias
05-09-2007, 05:06
With no mass the speed of light (Or rather, the laws that prevent us from technically reeaching it) are a bit irrelevant.
E-MC^2 Doesn't matter when M is nothing.


From the last page, I know, but I wanted to clear it up. From what I understand of physics, 'light speed' in a vacuum is the speed it is because 1) light has no mass, and 2) in a pure vacuum, there is nothing to slow light down. The equation you pointed out is important because it says that up to the point of zero mass, the faster you want to go, the more energy it takes and at the speed of light, anything with any mass needs an infinite amount of energy to keep it going. Even if Necrons were able to use I-drives (or mass negators), they still wouldn't be able to go faster than the speed of light, even if it meant they could get up to it really fast.

Teleportation, or gravity/space warping tech (as seen on star trek) would be their best bet I think. Its the only ftl drive that I can believe is possible with our current understanding, don't make yourself go faster, make everyone else move around you.

As to the farseers, I wonder how long they could stay in the warp before they were attacked by demons/consumed by slannesh. Surely they have a gellar field equivalent or even a better version of it, but we sure haven't heard about it.

Kage2020
05-09-2007, 12:43
Uh, not to put too fine a point on it, but just going by the name alone "seer" by definition means someone with extrasensory perception of some sort.
They are "Seers" because they follow the Path of the Seer, with the 'extrasensory perceptions' that you allude to being the development of psychic powers. These psychic powers may - probably do - include divination or precognitive but they are not the defining quality. Indeed, one need only look at Warlocks (combat-orientated psychic ability), Bonesingers (enhancement of psychomorphism for shaping and creation of wraithbone), Spirit Seers (enhanced telepathy/machine empathy/whatever), etc., etc.

Thus all I'm saying is that it is not necessary to infer from the title "Seer" that they have powers of divination and use them for guiding ships as "lesser Farseers."


That and going by the example of the Exarchs those who are "lost" on a path tend generally to merely be stronger versions of the "regular" path members, which would suggest Farseers are merely an extra-strong version of the common Seers.
An implication that I, for the most part, agree with. For me the Way upon which an individual Eldar walks when they become a paramount practitioner - Farseer, Exarch, or whatever - is 'aspected' by it. Thus, a Howling Banshee becomes a Howling Banshee Exarch. The same thing, again for me, applies to a Seer (remember, it's a generic name). Thus a Warlock might become a "Battle Seer," a Spirit Seer another type of 'Farseer,' etc. (Thus "Farseer" becomes a generic title indicating some shared ability, or transition, just as "Exarch" does.)

So, preaching to the converted here, MadDogMike. (Indeed, point your browser to the Anargo Wiki and "Tir'asur," and you'll be able to read much the same as I've written above.)


Again, this is all assuming there isn't some sort of dedicated Path of the Navigator or something...
Which would be somewhat lame, but in keeping with GW's approach to the Path system. Need another "job," sure we'll just make up a new Path despite the fact that we could include it in the structure that we already have. Hence the 'Path of Command.' :rolleyes:


Besides, there has to be SOMEONE on the path besides Farseers and warlocks :D.
Again, my comment was directed at your initial comment. Your elaboration makes more sense to me since, in many ways, it mirrors some of my own approaches.

Kage

The pestilent 1
05-09-2007, 12:46
From the last page, I know, but I wanted to clear it up. From what I understand of physics, 'light speed' in a vacuum is the speed it is because 1) light has no mass, and 2) in a pure vacuum, there is nothing to slow light down. The equation you pointed out is important because it says that up to the point of zero mass, the faster you want to go, the more energy it takes and at the speed of light, anything with any mass needs an infinite amount of energy to keep it going. Even if Necrons were able to use I-drives (or mass negators), they still wouldn't be able to go faster than the speed of light, even if it meant they could get up to it really fast.

With mass being constantly reduced to nothing (I'm really just kinda guessing how the Necrons achieve FTL here, obviously) it wouldn't matter.
Besides which we can do it now, on a tiny scale and over small distances but weve done it.

MacVurrich
05-09-2007, 12:56
How does that fit into the 'greater good'? I mean the Tau have to be aware of the Kroot warspheres for example.

form the BFG rule book
"The Nicassar were the first addition to the Tau Empire and continue to provide ships for the Empire as they are ill-suited for ground combat.
Nicassar have powerful minds though and rely on their telekinetic talents in particular to make up for their own limited mobility.. Their extended
families are semi-nomadic and are driven by insatiable curiosity. This led to their exploration of their home system, as they are most content when travelling. Because they can survive for long periods in virtual hibernation, they have travelled far from their home world, albeit slowly..
First contact with the Tau came when a Tau Explorer class vessel was setting up a Waystation in interstellar space and sighted a Nicassar flotilla that had been in space for centuries. As subjects of the Empire the Nicassar must serve the greater good and do so by providing fleets to scout and explore systems on the fringes of the Tau Empire. They are transported to their station by Tau vessels and commence a leisurely
circuit reporting anything they find. The Tau have carefully kept the Nicassar from the Imperium as they realise the Nicassar’s psychic powers would fuel the worst excesses of human xenophobia.”When a family travels numerous dhows travel docked together forming a larger community in which some members will be hibernating while others remain on watch. Nicassar dhows are small but elegant yachts that are propelled by their captains’ psychic powers. These are very manoeuvrable but lack any practical interstellar capacity and until recently any significant firepower. Since being incorporated into the Empire however their weaponry has been updated to Tau levels."

the Nicassars don't travel in the warp but piggy back in tau ships

"Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot, warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It appears they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.
The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.
Warspheres have a single drive running through their core from north to south pole and manoeuvring thrusters along their equator. These engines are reliable but very basic making Warspheres very slow. They are powerful enough to allow the Warsphere to land and take-off from a planet although the process is not elegant. When dirtside the manoeuvring thrusters will normally be used to bury the Warsphere."


Of any help ?

Lord Zarkov
05-09-2007, 18:19
With mass being constantly reduced to nothing (I'm really just kinda guessing how the Necrons achieve FTL here, obviously) it wouldn't matter.
Besides which we can do it now, on a tiny scale and over small distances but weve done it.

If the mass is nothing then you aren't going anywhere, E=0 and you have no kinetic energy for movement.

Even the fundemental particles with no rest mass (i.e. photons, electrons, etc) have a mass when they are moving due to their energy.

Biomass Denial
06-09-2007, 09:32
Tyranids are smart and they are capable of warp travel. It is the codex deal with it.

Tastyfish
06-09-2007, 17:14
If the mass is nothing then you aren't going anywhere, E=0 and you have no kinetic energy for movement.

Even the fundemental particles with no rest mass (i.e. photons, electrons, etc) have a mass when they are moving due to their energy.

Whilst the speed of light is a barrier, should you be able to cross it somehow then it starts getting easier to accelerate the faster you are going. Its going to take a lot of handwaving (and possibly nonsense terms like negative mass) but if you can cross that bridge its plain sailing for FTL at warp travel speeds after that, if not faster.

Jade_Dragon
06-09-2007, 17:20
form the BFG rule book
[I]"The Nicassar were the first addition to the Tau Empire and continue to provide ships for the Empire as they are ill-suited for ground combat.
Nicassar have powerful minds though and rely on their telekinetic talents in particular to make up for their own limited mobility.. Their extended
families are semi-nomadic and are driven by insatiable curiosity.

Of any help ?

Yes thanks!
Nicassar - don't think I've ever seen any of those - I smell a modeling project.

MacVurrich
07-09-2007, 08:50
Yes thanks!
Nicassar - don't think I've ever seen any of those - I smell a modeling project.

Nicassar Dhows

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302348&orignav=300812&ParentID=253437&GameNav=300808

elvinltl
07-09-2007, 13:48
Actually people, the Warp doesn't exsist...

And when you travel at the speed of light you will experience Time Dilation... Meaning they will be travelling back in time. :D

Jade_Dragon
07-09-2007, 17:15
Nicassar Dhows

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302348&orignav=300812&ParentID=253437&GameNav=300808

Sorry - I mean't in 40k not BG.