PDA

View Full Version : Your views on the new chaos codez?



Marnus
31-08-2007, 14:59
From what you have read, heard or seen, what do you think of the new chaos codex as a whole?
Opionions are not to be criticized but confrontation on your views are welcome. And please be respectifull if you can.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-08-2007, 15:05
perhaps you should aks for new 40k direction, not for new chaos codex.

personally i think that this codex is quite good. it have flaws, like:
-possessed are overpriced and their ability is know after the deplyment which is bad thing
-dreads are nerfed.

but rest of units have their battlefield roles.

Captain Micha
31-08-2007, 15:07
I believe from what I've seen and heard it's a step in the right direction. There are some things of course I have ...........questions about, but it is Chaos.. such is it's nature that it is always abit dodgy and cheesy in the rules.

But if they've kept with what they did with the Das and applied it to the spike marines then I'm cool.

Greatoliver
31-08-2007, 15:08
I don't play Chaos, but seems good.

lord_blackfang
31-08-2007, 15:11
I have 3 Chaos armies and I like the new Codex enough to start two more.

Thoth62
31-08-2007, 15:13
As others have said, there are a few things that bother me about it, in particular the rules for the possessed and the dreadnaught, so I'm not 100% happy with it.

I can tell you though that the good things far, far, far out weigh the bad stuff. I am very happy with how the codex turned out.

Wonna
31-08-2007, 15:20
I'm quite happy with it. I played a few 1000pt games recently with my Khornate force and being able to control my Berserkers again is an absolute joy - not to mention that my Khorne lord with daemon weapon is almost guaranteed to clear his kill zone (provided the daemon weapon doesn't try to tear his face off - it hasn't happened yet).

The bolter/bolt pistol/ccw combo in the regular squads is also great, and when combined which an Icon of Khorne and a Rhino you get a *very* flexible unit.

Eldanar
31-08-2007, 15:32
I think it is good overall.

The problems I have are possesed, spawn and lash; and the last is more irritation than outright "I think its broken..." :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why everyone is down on the dread:

- its cheaper
- its elite instead of heavy support
- the rules are the same as in 2nd ed. for Fire Frenzy (and you don't actually shoot until the shooting phase, so you can either move stuff away, or move a 35 point rhino up to block, etc.).

I used one in a game versus a Tyranid big bug list, and it did fine. I FF'd twice and BR'd once. It did manage to immobilize one of my own rhino's, but it also killed a couple tyranid warriors and stealers and finished off a wounded hive tyrant. You can't expect much more from a 105 point model.

Giltharin
31-08-2007, 15:46
I can't compare it with the old one as I have never read it, but just going through the new codex it looks pretty solid, with some really lovely options such as bolter,CCW,pistol for CSM infantry.

I see though Possessed and Spawns being to highly priced to compete with the other entries of the codex.

Pred Crazed rule is very chaotic, requires careful positioning of shooty ones, but a full CC Dread looks good value for the price.

Giltharin

Thoth62
31-08-2007, 15:57
I think it is good overall.

The problems I have are possesed, spawn and lash; and the last is more irritation than outright "I think its broken..." :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why everyone is down on the dread:

- its cheaper
- its elite instead of heavy support
- the rules are the same as in 2nd ed. for Fire Frenzy (and you don't actually shoot until the shooting phase, so you can either move stuff away, or move a 35 point rhino up to block, etc.).

I used one in a game versus a Tyranid big bug list, and it did fine. I FF'd twice and BR'd once. It did manage to immobilize one of my own rhino's, but it also killed a couple tyranid warriors and stealers and finished off a wounded hive tyrant. You can't expect much more from a 105 point model.

The thing is, I only started playing about 8 years ago, so after 2nd edition was dead and gone. I've never had to deal with a dreadnaught shooting my own troops unless it couldn't see the enemy, so this really is a big change for me. I'm sure I'll grow into it eventually, and I hope that it happens soon, because untill it does, I'll have a nice FW Dread that's gonna be collecting dust.

redbaron998
31-08-2007, 16:02
I said good,

overall it doesnt seem that bad. Most of the changes people expected arent bad at all, though I think they went to far with the Legions, there should have been some more allowances to make more legion units (like ability to add FC and such to Termies and HQ for a price) to represent the legions units,

But I guess thats why we are born with brains to and can make homemade rules.

When we all finally realize this is our game and we can play it how we want, whole new worlds open up to us.

(Comes cries of, "well then we cant ply in tournaments..." host your own then.

E-616
31-08-2007, 16:03
I'm pleased with it overall, love the new and updated psychic powers, cult units as troops is nice and straightforward being able to mark up units is cool too, Dreads are bit of a pain if you want to run them as shooting platforms and Oblits losing a point of toughness leaves them a bit eaisier to kill for the same points they were.

Good stuff though, it'll be nice to see how that Deamon codex ties in with it :)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-08-2007, 16:05
I think it is good overall.

The problems I have are possesed, spawn and lash; and the last is more irritation than outright "I think its broken..." :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why everyone is down on the dread:

- its cheaper
- its elite instead of heavy support
- the rules are the same as in 2nd ed. for Fire Frenzy (and you don't actually shoot until the shooting phase, so you can either move stuff away, or move a 35 point rhino up to block, etc.).

its more expensive with everything bar plasma cannon (where is 4 points cheaper)
it should be elite! i have nothing against dread in elite slots and i'm for it!
in 3.5 fire frenzy actually sometimes gives you unexpected benefit - now it is simple downgrade.

@redbaron998: it is only reason why i have my second force - right now :) (as LatD list is unusable)

Raven1
31-08-2007, 16:17
I like it by the sounds of it. The only thing so far I don't like aboutit are the possesed, which were a large part of my army and now have no place and the dreadnaught which was a good fire support piece now also useless. Like I want it shooting my troops. Maybe I will get a FW model and magnatize it so I can use either a plamsa gun or 2 CCW weapons. HHMMM....

The_Outsider
31-08-2007, 16:31
Its much much better.

The previous codex was a travesty and i'm glad we are shot of it.

grizzly ruin
31-08-2007, 16:33
I'm sure I'll grow into it eventually, and I hope that it happens soon, because untill it does, I'll have a nice FW Dread that's gonna be collecting dust.

Counts as Greater Daemon.

or

Counts as Daemon Prince with psychic power for the gun.

Hellebore
31-08-2007, 16:45
I think it is good, following the streamlining of the newer codicies.

I think this is entirely a response to the demand by tournament players for super tight lawyerproof rules. Removing options is the only realistic way they can do that, it creates fewer possible permeatations and thus makes it easier to balance.


I'm not sure what problem people have with the possessed - they are what? a few points more than the old dex, and their stats are identical. The table gives you options they never used to be able to take, and none of them are worth less than the amount you pay in the points increase...

They aren't much different in principle to Bile's troopers - those you actually have to pay for an upgrade that you don't know the result of.

I think the new possessed are fine, and some of their options are quite good. Even the less than ROXXORS ones like Scout aren't bad.

Not knowing what they will have before you deploy shouldn't be too much of a problem as every single one of their abilities is entirely devoted to either being BETTER at close combat, OR getting them their FASTER.

Hellebore

Killgore
31-08-2007, 16:58
I have 3 Chaos armies and I like the new Codex enough to start two more.

says the chap i remember being rather vocal about the rumours for the new chaos codex


well i agree with blackfang, great codex, allows you to theme your army on a god and for those with old cult armys you can still use most of your stuff.... well apart from slanesh kinda got screwed

Eldanar
31-08-2007, 16:59
its more expensive with everything bar plasma cannon (where is 4 points cheaper)
it should be elite! i have nothing against dread in elite slots and i'm for it!
in 3.5 fire frenzy actually sometimes gives you unexpected benefit - now it is simple downgrade.




???

- twin auto/las/hv bolter stayed the same;

- plasma went down 10 points

- multi melta went down 15 points

- extra cc arm went up 10 points

You could still kill your own models even under the 4th ed rules, if no enemy models were in range or LOS. And you did not have the option of trying to block the shooting or moving out of range/LOS like you do now.

And by moving it to Elite, it is a net improvement, as they are no longer competing against havocs, vindicators, etc., for the heavy slots.

Maybe my POV comes from having played 2d ed. where dreads truly were a dangerous two-edged sword (and where any dread from any army was one of the best selections in the game).

jfrazell
31-08-2007, 17:02
1. Most of the new chaos minis look excellent. The Spawn are full of freaky chaos goodness.

2. I read a draft of the new codex. Codex form and substance: A good amount of fluff with some actual new fluff (recognized some of it flowing with HH), but the pictures are mostly rehash. The list is broken into two sections and I can’t stand that style.

3. Don’t like the list construction. Power levels can still be ascertained, just a different style, but overall options for the thematic gamer have been reduced. There are several head scratchers as well-
-why no psychic hood or equivalent power?
-why demons so beaten about the head and face with the nerf stick?
-the list STILL suffers from good/bad units.
>possessed are tactically inefficient and will not be played.
>defilers will not be played by serious opponents. At A12 they are painfully vulnerable.
>demons have been erased from play
>lash wielding princes are almost a no brainer
>point for point, cult troops are more efficient than generic icon tac squads (forget their name)

Things liked
-even though a former IW player, I can agree with moving oblits to HS.
-I like that items available are listed in the selections. They just should have had more options available.
-I actually like the simple mark system. It should have been extended to demons.
-Tzeentch have been powerfully upgraded, on par with the best of chaos.
-Slaanie, Nurgle and Khrone icons are nice. I like that Khorne uses furious charge. That feels more appropriate and inline with BA (you know, the other Khorne).

This is not a chaos dex, but a marine dex. If you like marines, this works for you. If you like the non-marine aspects of chaos, this is a disappointment.

Darkangeldentist
31-08-2007, 17:09
I really like some bits but also hate other bits.

I adore the differentiation between marked marines and cult marines as well as the expanded number of units that can take all marks. The new marks are cool too.

The dread seems fine. I was aggravated when they changed fire frenzy to only be a boon and seeing it go back feels more appropriate. Plus if you compare it to the DA and BA dreadnoughts it's substantially cheaper and still has an extra attack over it's imperial cousins! (So please quite the whinging.)

Possessed are meh, I like them and would use them but the other elite choices are all more reliable buys for better points. So a shame they once again miss the mark.

I seriously worry about the fact Gav and Jervis are heading up the writing of these new codices. I like the direction the codices are heading but the mistakes! Normally I worry about spelling and grammatical errata but these make me wonder about the basic intention of unit's purpose sometimes. Some things work and other don't.

However hail to the new dex, because it means the old one is dead. Dead, dead, dead! It was hilarious to read and make lists with but I never liked the idea of facing them or even using them. This one I feel I could at least write an army that wouldn't make me feel like a git.

Stella Cadente
31-08-2007, 17:13
its great, good, awesome, fantastic, and makes me finally want to do a Chaos army, the last one REALLY put me off doing one, but now GW has finally made a decent chaos codex, I can do one

DhaosAndy
31-08-2007, 17:33
Well I think its the worst chaos codex, bar none.

It completely failed to build on the potential of the 3.5 dex while correcting it's mistakes. :cries: for another missed opportunity.

Words may be inadequate to express my disappointment, but that won't stop me trying.;)

I'll post a review and comparison when I've digested it more fully.

The Song of Spears
31-08-2007, 17:47
I voted that its crap, and that there are too many people willing to accept that crap because it plays well with others. Read on...

The HQ Choices.
All of the named characters are much like the Eldar Phoenix lords, they each were built with a uniqueness in mind plus points cost. Lucious and Huron are on the lower end of the power scale and thus cheaper, and Ahriman and Abaddon are as much as the Phoenix Lord Asurmen and quite buff. But all in all, i don't expect to see them too often.

The deamon prince is not quite like the carnifex, but in a similar fashion he may take a small number (comparatively to what he had before) of options to kit him out. The only real loss here is the unique deamon weapons (Dread Axe, Darkblade, Kai gun etc..) other than that he will be quite good in close combat.

The chaos lord and sorcerer lord are much the same now, except that they have been distinctly separated out where one gets more choppy/shooty options and the other gets psychic powers. Other than that, this is just another option for a HQ. Not bad. Though no one will waste their time with most of the deamon weapons, especially khorne as by odds, you will give up two wounds a game just to the stupid weapon.

Speaking of psychic powers the new ones are all pretty well described when and how you use them, basically making the entry in the BGB on psychic powers meaningless(fine by me, it was a horribly written entry anyway).

Then we move on to elites
Chosen, not a bad price, and infiltrate for free. They are obviously tuned for close combat as you can get 4 special weapons (power weapon, lighting claw, powerfist) in any size squad for average points. The mark you give them will largely determine how aggressive you are on the table with them, and a little of how they are played. But honestly for almost no more points I would rather have raptors who move like jump infantry thus quickly negating most of the infiltration benefits(most but not all of course).

Terminators
CHEAP!! Woot! For getting next to no special weapons of note you can get chaos marines with terminator armour and a power weapon at double the base marine cost. So for some long lasting troops, this is the way to go, and honestly I will be surprised if anyone marks them with something other than nurgle or tzentch…

The dread
Ok, so I get many of the gun options as before, no marks offered, and he will shoot his own guys if they are closest when he frenzies, but up to 4 attacks or some decent guns, and the points cost is ok, about as much as a predator, depending on the options… no option for venerable or deamonic possession though…

Troops
This is obviously all they want you to take in the new codex as all other entries lost most of their potency. You get two types of base marine troops:
Chaos marines and Cult marines
The chaos marines can take a icon, thus giving them the abilities of the cult marines, however, that is where the similarities stop.

Regular marines, marked or not, can take a standard set of options, plasma guns and plasma pistols and meltas and so on, but only 1, and a big gun if you have 10 men. Close enough to the same price before, they will only be slightly different than your chaos troops now, unless you give them a mark with is kinda like a lame trade-off for veteran skills. Sure +1 toughness is great, until you look at the cost to get it…

Cult marines all start with their respective mark, and get a different set of weapon options each. Khorne really got hurt here with the loss of chain axes, which I think is silly seeing as slaanesh kept their noise guns… once set up, they will be just like your old cult marines, just no mix and match weapons (no las/plas + sonic weapons slaanesh kinda deal) and they may cost a bit more than before.

This is really the only place where you might see some real variance from chaos army to chaos army. As each cult marines unit offers an equally good choice for a troop slot.

The rhino is now dirt cheap and as all chaos vehicles, comes with little in the way of useful upgrades, the most painful loss being mutated hull of course. But for the price they make great moving walls…

Fast Attack
Even less options here than the Necrons get, well kinda…
You get bikes, raptors and chaos spawn

Bikes are, well bikes… and much like the base chaos marines, the marks serve only as a decent replacement for the veteran skills. So no skilled rider, furious charge and so on. Just a +1 to some stat. meh..

Raptors, greatly reduced on price, deep strike instead of hit and run (really sad as hit and run was fluffy and a nice alteration from loyalist assault marines) and of course no deamonic visage. Other than being able to give them a mark (pretty cool actually) they get all the same options as before.

Spawn.. hmm Slow and purposeful… meh…. 3 wounds … nice… Str 5, toughness 5… nice d6 attacks… meh they take up no slot but they can only be max 3 to a squad. And you can have as many as you want with points being your only limit… I guess they could be good for hiding out in the back lines near your neutered havoc squads…

Heavy support (sigh  )
Havocs. Same as before, just no veteran skills, not even tank hunters. So if you want reliable tank hunting you have to take some lascannons in troops or in super expensive havovs, or …

Obliterators
Only ‘energy’ weapons , so we loose a autocannon for a plasma cannon, and loose a heavy bolter for a multimelta… these guys have been relegated to tank hunting for the most part, and maybe opportunistic anti terminators. Now toughness 4, Str 4 and a bit of a price hike, they are not terribly awesome, but will provide the best anti tank… (no marks allowed here by the way)

The predator
Again, same options here as before just a wee bit dropped in price, the basic marine options are here, smoke(free), extra armour, dozer blade and then there is deamonic possession which drops you to BS 3 in turn for ignoring stunned and shaken, but with front armour 13 and side 12, you may never need it… no marks btw

The vindicator
Take away all the predators guns and give it a demolisher cannon and dozer blade

The defiler
Hmm, this is just a odd entry. A move and shoot battle cannon dread, or a move and fleet dread. he can either be kitted out with some guns (a waste if you use the battle cannon), or close combat weapons gaining him some extra attacks, so you will often fleet him to get him out of enemy firing ASAP, rendering the battle cannon nearly useless… other then him being a heavy support choice, I don’t see why you would take a dreadnought over a defiler… no marks btw

The landraider
Same as before, can carry 10 models, termis count as 2 each and oblits and summoned deamons are not allowed. Gun options are the same as before, but no fire control, 2x twin linked las and a twin linked heavy bolter for a bit less than a regular loyalist landraider. No marks btw

Summoned deamons
The greater deamon is a steal for the cost of a asschamp plus a naked dread you get a decent close combat monster that takes up no slot, only a 4+ inv save though, so grey knights thank the codex overlords for that – only one allowed though.

Summoned deamons
Basically the cost of a marine scout, they get only a 5+ inv save and are basically a marine in stats. They can only be summoned and can not move but can assault the turn they get summoned in. Which all summoning has to be done with icons that are on the table prior to the summoning reserves roll, no icons, no deamons. And once again, they oddly take up no FOC slot, so other than points cost, take as many as you like! …snooze…

And that’s it… no other FOC options… no FOC alterations and the minor psyker powers are gone, and the ones that remain are better than most of what everyone else gets, but only tzeentch can get two, everyone else (who is not khorne) can only take 1 for about the cost of a special weapon.



So here comes the unique part: my take on all this…

The loss of tank hunters, cheap plentiful lascannons and uber deamon princes means the armys will be way less powerfull, no matter how you slice it. Eve for those of use who didn’t abuse the old codex, you army will show small signs of loss.

But this does mean that other armies tanks will live longer, skimmers will be the bane of chaos without lots of easy to kill oblits or las cannon havocs (you are a wee bit insane for the points cost if you take this route, but the option is there…) otherwise you just wont have enough big guns to bring them down ( I would say that ‘you wont bring them down easy, but with mostly str 7 guns out there, and a few odd lascannons, I would be surprised to see more than two dead wave serpents or devil fish in a whole game).

I don’t think the effectiveness of my chaos army will go down a LOT but it has gone down, even without the consideration of the abuse of the old dex.

There are some items that should have made it to this dex… khornate chainaxes, tankhunting havocs, mutated hull, a few more psyker powers, and some other chaos vehicle other then a vindicator

Armies such as Iron Warriors, Pure Emperors Children and other will suffer greatly as many models are not even an option anymore, so theses lists (almost no matter how you had them before) will change, maybe not for the worse, but they will be different.

I was a IW player and I will miss my basilisk(mostly because of the cool conversion I did with it) but I can now have noise marines as troops, which is better than my old troops, and actually an area I had wanted better options in. Seeing as how often the basi scattered, I will only miss him in vanity, but not in practicality.

C’est la vie

But there is one thing I want to stress with this codex. It is boring. It’s the very reason I don’t play Space Marines, but WORSE. No chapter divergences, no Allies, no unique vehicles other than the tired defiler.

If this is supposed to be codex chaos marines renegades, then all of the traitor legions should be in here minus the cult legions (khorne, slaanesh, etc.. who should get their own codex). There should be some kinda special options to do much like the Space Marines codex does, play “Chapters of Infamy” such as Iron Warriors, or make your own chapter with divergences. Why these options are not in a codex based on chaos marines is nothing but a pathetic cop-out.

Those of you who like the codex, like it simply because its easy to use, easy to make a list, and fairly balanced for play and strength.

Sadly this is something that could have been accomplished with way more flare and variety then GW chose here. I don’t care how effective this codex is to play, its bland crap halfway between necrons and space marines.

jfrazell
31-08-2007, 18:09
I voted that its crap, and that there are too many people willing to accept that crap because it plays well with others. Read on...

But there is one thing I want to stress with this codex. It is boring. It’s the very reason I don’t play Space Marines, but WORSE. No chapter divergences, no Allies, no unique vehicles other than the tired defiler.

If this is supposed to be codex chaos marines renegades, then all of the traitor legions should be in here minus the cult legions (khorne, slaanesh, etc.. who should get their own codex). There should be some kinda special options to do much like the Space Marines codex does, play “Chapters of Infamy” such as Iron Warriors, or make your own chapter with divergences. Why these options are not in a codex based on chaos marines is nothing but a pathetic cop-out.

Thos of you who like the codex, like I simply because its easy to use, easy to make a list, and fairly balanced for play and strength.

Sadly this is something that could have been accomplished with way more flare and variety then GW chose here. I don’t have how effective this codex is to play, its bland crap halfway between necrons and space marines.


Quoted for truthiness.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-08-2007, 18:17
???

- twin auto/las/hv bolter stayed the same;

- plasma went down 10 points

- multi melta went down 15 points

- extra cc arm went up 10 points



Extra Armour cost 10 points more.

@Darkangeldentist: now imperial ones are overpriced (codex:da,codex:ba). truth to be told look at any recent army list.

Joewrightgm
31-08-2007, 18:37
I'm speaking from the point of view of of someone who has never had a Chaos army before, and was holding off starting Black Legion because of the redux.
I really like the new codex (at the risk of being called a fanboy, bad player, etc, etc). I like how clean and concise it is; I'm not sure if this is a product of my liking the lay out of my Dark Angel's codex or simply because it gives you chaotic options without the list itself being chaotic. I've been playing for 6 years, and its not a lack of experience that makes me say that.

I think veterans who have never had a chaos army will like it, and I think new players will find it less daunting to start.

Just my 2.

The Song of Spears
31-08-2007, 18:58
Quoted for truthiness.

Thanks, i had hopes some brave soul might wade through my huge post.

All in all i think its a fair statement. I mean, crazy rules aside, there should just be more, i mean, why can chaos have vindicators now, but no drop pods???

i hate this codex... :p

dcikgyurt
31-08-2007, 19:04
I like it, good artwork, good fluff (not just HH fluff but renegade fluff as well), and a reasonable army list with lots of variety in the form of units and removal of the uber-killing-machine HQ options.

All in, I love it, my black Legion are going to go from strength to strength.

IJW
31-08-2007, 19:15
i mean, why can chaos have vindicators now, but no drop pods???
Vindicators are just 'back' with CSM - my Space Marine (later called Epic) Chaos force had a ton of them. Good point with the Pods, though.

DhaosAndy
31-08-2007, 19:19
See this new background on recent renegades is really just a little silly, so we are expected to believe that as soon as a chapter turns traiter all it's speeders fall from the sky and it's infantry toting plasma cannon just melt, Bah humbug.:p

Recent renegades should be the province of codex SM not CSM.:(

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-08-2007, 19:20
TAll in all i think its a fair statement. I mean, crazy rules aside, there should just be more, i mean, why can chaos have vindicators now, but no drop pods???

i hate this codex... :p

well you made some good points but:

-chaos marines are good - they are not to babysit heavy weapon.
-dread is more expensive than before tbh
-losing khornate chainaxes is good thing - are they seriously that different?it was stupid move to put them into codex 3.5
-havocs are good as they are imo

sad part - they missed opportunity to make another chaos only vehicle (fast vehicle with scout for example) - and that chaos still have no drop pods :/

rivers3162
31-08-2007, 19:31
But there is one thing I want to stress with this codex. It is boring. It’s the very reason I don’t play Space Marines, but WORSE. No chapter divergences, no Allies, no unique vehicles other than the tired defiler.

If this is supposed to be codex chaos marines renegades, then all of the traitor legions should be in here minus the cult legions (khorne, slaanesh, etc.. who should get their own codex). There should be some kinda special options to do much like the Space Marines codex does, play “Chapters of Infamy” such as Iron Warriors, or make your own chapter with divergences. Why these options are not in a codex based on chaos marines is nothing but a pathetic cop-out.

Those of you who like the codex, like it simply because its easy to use, easy to make a list, and fairly balanced for play and strength.

Sadly this is something that could have been accomplished with way more flare and variety then GW chose here. I don’t care how effective this codex is to play, its bland crap halfway between necrons and space marines.

QFT

I voted bad. The reasons for this are:

*Works well for renegade marines and some legions but not all especially the cult legions
*Possessed are too hit or miss
*Streamlining of the armoury and cutting veteran skills, daemonic gifts etc. remove a lot of the individuality and conversion possibilities the old codex had
*Non-specific daemons??
*Feels too much like C:SM with spikes and a defiler

However, that said, I think I may start a new renegade warband (Sons of Malice....hmmm) to use with the codex but my DG, EC and WE are gonna be shelved until the daemonic codex comes out and we get specific daemons and (pretty please!) cult specific lists. The new models are very nice though too.

Eldanar
31-08-2007, 19:47
Extra Armour cost 10 points more.

@Darkangeldentist: now imperial ones are overpriced (codex:da,codex:ba). truth to be told look at any recent army list.


But it is 10 points more for everything in the list. And considering it applies against all of 1 result on the damage chart, why bother taking it at all?

All I was trying to compare was base line stats and weapons. You can't compare add-ons and upgrades, because in this instance the new codex loses hands down almost every time.

And with the massively reduced points costs everywhere in the list, you are better off taking everything with as few upgrades as necessary any how.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-08-2007, 20:14
But it is 10 points more for everything in the list. And considering it applies against all of 1 result on the damage chart, why bother taking it at all?

it seems i dont understand you - ANY dreadnought with close combat weapon want to MOVE toward enemy. it is IMPORTANT. VERY IMPORTANT. it is basic tactics:eek:

only way is make expensive shooty dreads without EA. which is ... bad?

(dreads should be monstrous creatures - now are funny :/ )

leonmallett
31-08-2007, 20:22
I voted that its crap, and that there are too many people willing to accept that crap because it plays well with others. Read on...

I don't accept that it is crap. I like it because it is balanced and shows consistency of design philosophy.


The HQ Choices.
All of the named characters are much like the Eldar Phoenix lords, they each were built with a uniqueness in mind plus points cost. Lucious and Huron are on the lower end of the power scale and thus cheaper, and Ahriman and Abaddon are as much as the Phoenix Lord Asurmen and quite buff. But all in all, i don't expect to see them too often.

So no actual problem with them, then?


The deamon prince is not quite like the carnifex, but in a similar fashion he may take a small number (comparatively to what he had before) of options to kit him out. The only real loss here is the unique deamon weapons (Dread Axe, Darkblade, Kai gun etc..) other than that he will be quite good in close combat.

Again, no problem here, then?


The chaos lord and sorcerer lord are much the same now, except that they have been distinctly separated out where one gets more choppy/shooty options and the other gets psychic powers. Other than that, this is just another option for a HQ. Not bad. Though no one will waste their time with most of the deamon weapons, especially khorne as by odds, you will give up two wounds a game just to the stupid weapon.

They are much the same but one is choppy/shooty and one psychic? Sounds different enough. The Khorne weapon is a big gamble. But for those prepared to take such risks possibly worth the reward. A bit like worshipping the ruinous powers really...

So not a bad thing.


Speaking of psychic powers the new ones are all pretty well described when and how you use them, basically making the entry in the BGB on psychic powers meaningless(fine by me, it was a horribly written entry anyway).

Again you identify no problems here.


Then we move on to elites
Chosen, not a bad price, and infiltrate for free. They are obviously tuned for close combat as you can get 4 special weapons (power weapon, lighting claw, powerfist) in any size squad for average points. The mark you give them will largely determine how aggressive you are on the table with them, and a little of how they are played. But honestly for almost no more points I would rather have raptors who move like jump infantry thus quickly negating most of the infiltration benefits(most but not all of course).

You like these also.


Terminators
CHEAP!! Woot! For getting next to no special weapons of note you can get chaos marines with terminator armour and a power weapon at double the base marine cost. So for some long lasting troops, this is the way to go, and honestly I will be surprised if anyone marks them with something other than nurgle or tzentch…

Another entry you like.


The dread
Ok, so I get many of the gun options as before, no marks offered, and he will shoot his own guys if they are closest when he frenzies, but up to 4 attacks or some decent guns, and the points cost is ok, about as much as a predator, depending on the options… no option for venerable or deamonic possession though…

So your overall view is 'okay' about the dread?


Troops
This is obviously all they want you to take in the new codex as all other entries lost most of their potency. You get two types of base marine troops:
Chaos marines and Cult marines
The chaos marines can take a icon, thus giving them the abilities of the cult marines, however, that is where the similarities stop.

Actually 5 types, as each cult marine squad is very different.


Regular marines, marked or not, can take a standard set of options, plasma guns and plasma pistols and meltas and so on, but only 1, and a big gun if you have 10 men. Close enough to the same price before, they will only be slightly different than your chaos troops now, unless you give them a mark with is kinda like a lame trade-off for veteran skills. Sure +1 toughness is great, until you look at the cost to get it…

Cult marines all start with their respective mark, and get a different set of weapon options each. Khorne really got hurt here with the loss of chain axes, which I think is silly seeing as slaanesh kept their noise guns… once set up, they will be just like your old cult marines, just no mix and match weapons (no las/plas + sonic weapons slaanesh kinda deal) and they may cost a bit more than before.

This is really the only place where you might see some real variance from chaos army to chaos army. As each cult marines unit offers an equally good choice for a troop slot.

Again no identified problem then.


The rhino is now dirt cheap and as all chaos vehicles, comes with little in the way of useful upgrades, the most painful loss being mutated hull of course. But for the price they make great moving walls…

So you like it?


Fast Attack
Even less options here than the Necrons get, well kinda…
You get bikes, raptors and chaos spawn

Bikes are, well bikes… and much like the base chaos marines, the marks serve only as a decent replacement for the veteran skills. So no skilled rider, furious charge and so on. Just a +1 to some stat. meh..

A-ha, something you are not so keen on.


Raptors, greatly reduced on price, deep strike instead of hit and run (really sad as hit and run was fluffy and a nice alteration from loyalist assault marines) and of course no deamonic visage. Other than being able to give them a mark (pretty cool actually) they get all the same options as before.

So the Mark is cool and you don't sound otherwise very negative.


Spawn.. hmm Slow and purposeful… meh…. 3 wounds … nice… Str 5, toughness 5… nice d6 attacks… meh they take up no slot but they can only be max 3 to a squad. And you can have as many as you want with points being your only limit… I guess they could be good for hiding out in the back lines near your neutered havoc squads…

So you are a little indifferent to these?


Heavy support (sigh  )
Havocs. Same as before, just no veteran skills, not even tank hunters. So if you want reliable tank hunting you have to take some lascannons in troops or in super expensive havovs, or …

So not to your liking because things have been taken away?


Obliterators
Only ‘energy’ weapons , so we loose a autocannon for a plasma cannon, and loose a heavy bolter for a multimelta… these guys have been relegated to tank hunting for the most part, and maybe opportunistic anti terminators. Now toughness 4, Str 4 and a bit of a price hike, they are not terribly awesome, but will provide the best anti tank… (no marks allowed here by the way)

But they can deep strike with a Multimelta, or one of the other shots, which is certainly not bad.


The predator
Again, same options here as before just a wee bit dropped in price, the basic marine options are here, smoke(free), extra armour, dozer blade and then there is deamonic possession which drops you to BS 3 in turn for ignoring stunned and shaken, but with front armour 13 and side 12, you may never need it… no marks btw

So no problems for you?


The vindicator
Take away all the predators guns and give it a demolisher cannon and dozer blade

Again, no problems about this?


The defiler
Hmm, this is just a odd entry. A move and shoot battle cannon dread, or a move and fleet dread. he can either be kitted out with some guns (a waste if you use the battle cannon), or close combat weapons gaining him some extra attacks, so you will often fleet him to get him out of enemy firing ASAP, rendering the battle cannon nearly useless… other then him being a heavy support choice, I don’t see why you would take a dreadnought over a defiler… no marks btw

Actually more varied options than before really, and better than it was in close combat. It is also pretty unique compared to any other codex.


The landraider
Same as before, can carry 10 models, termis count as 2 each and oblits and summoned deamons are not allowed. Gun options are the same as before, but no fire control, 2x twin linked las and a twin linked heavy bolter for a bit less than a regular loyalist landraider. No marks btw

And cheaper than a loyalist one...?


Summoned deamons
The greater deamon is a steal for the cost of a asschamp plus a naked dread you get a decent close combat monster that takes up no slot, only a 4+ inv save though, so grey knights thank the codex overlords for that – only one allowed though.

Surely only one should be allowed in a typical 40K sized game.


Summoned deamons
Basically the cost of a marine scout, they get only a 5+ inv save and are basically a marine in stats. They can only be summoned and can not move but can assault the turn they get summoned in. Which all summoning has to be done with icons that are on the table prior to the summoning reserves roll, no icons, no deamons. And once again, they oddly take up no FOC slot, so other than points cost, take as many as you like! …snooze…

Only get a 5+ invulnerable save? What you want more for cheaper troops (compared to Marines)?


And that’s it… no other FOC options… no FOC alterations and the minor psyker powers are gone, and the ones that remain are better than most of what everyone else gets, but only tzeentch can get two, everyone else (who is not khorne) can only take 1 for about the cost of a special weapon.

No FOC alterations? Should there be? Unless you are an Iron Warrior player bemoaning the loss of the extra Heavy choice that offered no balance this is not a problem. Units have changed in FOC slots, and some units don't use FOC slots - all good. And the loss of the minor psyker powers is not a bad thing. They added no quality to the game, only Siren beardiness.




So here comes the unique part: my take on all this…

The loss of tank hunters, cheap plentiful lascannons and uber deamon princes means the armys will be way less powerfull, no matter how you slice it. Eve for those of use who didn’t abuse the old codex, you army will show small signs of loss.

You accept that the previous edition was abused, though? Heavily in some cases I would contend.


But this does mean that other armies tanks will live longer, skimmers will be the bane of chaos without lots of easy to kill oblits or las cannon havocs (you are a wee bit insane for the points cost if you take this route, but the option is there…) otherwise you just wont have enough big guns to bring them down ( I would say that ‘you wont bring them down easy, but with mostly str 7 guns out there, and a few odd lascannons, I would be surprised to see more than two dead wave serpents or devil fish in a whole game).

I don’t think the effectiveness of my chaos army will go down a LOT but it has gone down, even without the consideration of the abuse of the old dex.

If you apply the design philosophy of lists generated through the previous codex, then yes effectiveness will be lost. but as you not it was abused. Therefore, it had to be addressed.


There are some items that should have made it to this dex… khornate chainaxes, tankhunting havocs, mutated hull, a few more psyker powers, and some other chaos vehicle other then a vindicator

Why should a chainaxe be different to a chainsword if an axe is no different to a sword or knife? If Marine Devastators with Tank Hunter are going by the wayside (which appears to be the case following C: DA and C: BA) why should they have to be in C: CSM? And vehicles - there are also Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, and Defilers.


Armies such as Iron Warriors, Pure Emperors Children and other will suffer greatly as many models are not even an option anymore, so theses lists (almost no matter how you had them before) will change, maybe not for the worse, but they will be different.

Some like Iron Warriors will suffer because they had a very much unbalanced list and FOC structure. I think EC will remain very playable. And different can be good.


I was a IW player and I will miss my basilisk(mostly because of the cool conversion I did with it) but I can now have noise marines as troops, which is better than my old troops, and actually an area I had wanted better options in. Seeing as how often the basi scattered, I will only miss him in vanity, but not in practicality.

So again no problem.


C’est la vie

But there is one thing I want to stress with this codex. It is boring. It’s the very reason I don’t play Space Marines, but WORSE. No chapter divergences, no Allies, no unique vehicles other than the tired defiler.

So it is boring because it doesn't have the things that make a codex internally and externally unbalanced, illogical, inconsistent and therefore broken? No-one has allies now. The Defiler is tired? It has totally refreshed rules and options and is tired? I would hate to hear how tired a Rhino or Land Raider is then....

If this is supposed to be codex chaos marines renegades, then all of the traitor legions should be in here minus the cult legions (khorne, slaanesh, etc.. who should get their own codex). There should be some kinda special options to do much like the Space Marines codex does, play “Chapters of Infamy” such as Iron Warriors, or make your own chapter with divergences. Why these options are not in a codex based on chaos marines is nothing but a pathetic cop-out. [/QUOTE]

Why shouldn't the cults be in the book? The options allow you to field troops slightly given over to chaos (no icon), well-trod on a path (icons) or fully immeresed in worship of a ruinous power (cult troops). Why should a renegade force not have those choices. Not all cult troops should neccessarily belong solely to one of the four Legions associated with the specific chaos gods (Thousand Sons apart for obvious reasons). In additions, many different formations and army types can be played, evoking Iron Warriors (go heavy on heavies), Nightlords (Chosen, raptors, winged lords etc), Alpha Legion (Chosen) and so on. Not a pathetic cop-out I would say, rather a way to balance a list that gives the opportunity to field these different army types whilst maintaining balance.


Those of you who like the codex, like it simply because its easy to use, easy to make a list, and fairly balanced for play and strength.

Sadly this is something that could have been accomplished with way more flare and variety then GW chose here. I don’t care how effective this codex is to play, its bland crap halfway between necrons and space marines.

You say it lacks variety and flair, yet really you seem to mostly bemoan that Iron Warriors can't be played as they were. That really seems to have summed up your previous points - you don't mind many of the entries but you can't use lists that have no sense of balance in them. That isn't flair, that was weakness of design.

leonmallett
31-08-2007, 20:30
By the way, I voted that I liked it. I found it interesting, balanced, well-crafted and demanding, in terms of the thought needed, since so many choices appaear viable, rather than so few as was the case before.

Eldanar
31-08-2007, 20:53
it seems i dont understand you - ANY dreadnought with close combat weapon want to MOVE toward enemy. it is IMPORTANT. VERY IMPORTANT. it is basic tactics:eek:

only way is make expensive shooty dreads without EA. which is ... bad?

(dreads should be monstrous creatures - now are funny :/ )


It is very simply a cost-benefit analysis. It is not worth increasing the cost of your model by 15% merely to avoid one result (Stunned) on the damage chart.

Tactics are using things like terrain and mobile walls (like rhinos) to avoid being shot all together. Keeping a cc dread mobile is not a tactic; it is merely a desired result.

And even if it is stunned, who cares. This means that it won't fire frenzy the next turn, and you won't have to worry about it shooting your other models in the back. ;)

It is only a 100 point model, and if it doesn't get to do anything for a turn this is not a great loss.

The Song of Spears
31-08-2007, 21:27
Firstly, my comments on the codex go to show i am unbiased and open minded towards the changes. And that as i stated, some of them will even benefit my old chaos army. What i was lamenting was not the codex's effectiveness, as so many who dont really read what i posted get confused over. I was sad that GW has decided that it is better to simplify a codex and its rules in the name of balance and not in the name of fluff. Which, in a game that is not like chess or warmachine, i think is very important.

I dont play warmachine because i dont like that they wont let you customize your every model. If Gw keeps down this path, there will be little separating the two and they will loose business because there is no longer any reason to stick to GW and its poor management and overpriced models. On top of the money lost for not allowing in game reasons to convert and kitbash models.



So it is boring because it doesn't have the things that make a codex internally and externally unbalanced, illogical, inconsistent and therefore broken? No-one has allies now. The Defiler is tired? It has totally refreshed rules and options and is tired? I would hate to hear how tired a Rhino or Land Raider is then....

Hey, if you hate options and game mechanics that requite army individuality, then by all means, go for the new codex. But there are those of us who, in our personal opinion, believe that certain options have no need for removal, and that special rules can be balanced. Thus we feel there is no need to remove rules mechanics that generate unique armies. This is what this codex does not do, in any way at all. If you dont understand how that can generate more true uniqueness than picking one troop type over the other can, then i dont think we will be able to understand eachother.




Why shouldn't the cults be in the book? The options allow you to field troops slightly given over to chaos (no icon), well-trod on a path (icons) or fully immeresed in worship of a ruinous power (cult troops). Why should a renegade force not have those choices. Not all cult troops should neccessarily belong solely to one of the four Legions associated with the specific chaos gods (Thousand Sons apart for obvious reasons). In additions, many different formations and army types can be played, evoking Iron Warriors (go heavy on heavies), Nightlords (Chosen, raptors, winged lords etc), Alpha Legion (Chosen) and so on. Not a pathetic cop-out I would say, rather a way to balance a list that gives the opportunity to field these different army types whilst maintaining balance.

Apparently you have not noticed that there is a codex space marines, codex dark angels, codex black templars, codex blood angels, codex space wolves, and so on. People lack of imagination when it comes to expanding out all the options a true Khorne only army would have, thus needing its own codex, is again, sad.

What would all you space marine players say if i said, lets take away ALL space marines variants, ALL OF THEM, and put them into ONE codex, with NO OPTIONS to make any of their unique lists or abilities.

You would rage and gnash teeth at GW, and yet we CSM players are supposed to roll over and take this codex like we deserved the loss. To hell with anyone who thinks this is a good codex, yet supports all the variants of SM getting their own codex. We the CSM players want our armies back, and "balance" is not a good enough reason to make 5 SM codex's and 1 CSM codex.



You say it lacks variety and flair, yet really you seem to mostly bemoan that Iron Warriors can't be played as they were. That really seems to have summed up your previous points - you don't mind many of the entries but you can't use lists that have no sense of balance in them. That isn't flair, that was weakness of design.

Still stuck on IW eh? You one of the sad individuals who never figured out how to beat them? IW never won a US GT. Only ever won 3 GT's over seas since the codex came out. Funny, for such a powerhouse army, they don't seem to dominate very much over the 6+ years they were avaiable to use...

this gripe of individuality is not to bring back power armies. i think this new CSM codex is plenty powerful. its all the other options that made traitor legions fun, for the same reason why SM have Dark Angels, Blood angles, Templars, Wolves, etc...

The_Outsider
31-08-2007, 21:34
What would all you space marine players say if i said, lets take away ALL space marines variants, ALL OF THEM, and put them into ONE codex, with NO OPTIONS to make any of their unique lists or abilities.

Then we'd be almost exactly where we are now? just minus BA, DA, BT and SW (and give or take traits).

Besides when the sm redux coems along we will be "just like chaos only less spikey".

Here's a thought, if chaos are called boring because they are spiky loyalists, then WTF was this "horus heresy" I keep hearing about? Something like marines turning ot chaos? something like them stil lbeing marines? something like they being loyalists + mental daemon stuff?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-08-2007, 21:39
What would all you space marine players say if i said, lets take away ALL space marines variants, ALL OF THEM, and put them into ONE codex, with NO OPTIONS to make any of their unique lists or abilities.

Count me in!

And i'm playing space marines from time to time :)

Eldanar
31-08-2007, 21:42
That is a fair comment SOS, and I agree with you somewhat. However, on the other hand, I have always played Black Legion with heavy Khorne and/or Tzeentch influences. And in most instances, my stuff got better.

With that said, I would look to WD articles over the next year or so to fluff out some of the Legion specific lists, similar to what GW did with the BA and DA lists. To me this not only makes sense in terms of making WD relevant again, but also it allows GW to have a solid core list, that in turn can be built upon and altered to make the Legion lists; rather than the half-baked 2 page summary lists we got before.

The Song of Spears
31-08-2007, 21:42
Then we'd be almost exactly where we are now? just minus BA, DA, BT and SW (and give or take traits).

Besides when the sm redux coems along we will be "just like chaos only less spikey".

Here's a thought, if chaos are called boring because they are spiky loyalists, then WTF was this "horus heresy" I keep hearing about? Something like marines turning ot chaos? something like them stil lbeing marines? something like they being loyalists + mental daemon stuff?

I am sorry, are you saying that loosing 4 codex's and traits means nothing to you? I have a hard time believing that, and i bet there are tons of Sm players would would be quite offended to loose deathwing, ravenwing, white scars, ravenguard, and so on, all in the name of balance.

"Now you all can only play ultra marines and you only get a few minor troop choice options to try and make your army unique." = BS

And the codex redux SM is NOT here yet, so that is meaningless ATM.

Horus heresy? Sure why not. have generic marines options to represent chapters that simply turned their back on the empire. thats fine by me.

But a pure khrone army, or pure slaanesh, would not be anything like the chapters they stole marines from. They dont even use geneseeds to get more marines. So there should be equal representation of highly mutated and varied in equipment and formation in all chaos armies as they no longer adhere to the index astartes for equipment regs.


EDIT:

With that said, I would look to WD articles over the next year or so to fluff out some of the Legion specific lists, similar to what GW did with the BA and DA lists. To me this not only makes sense in terms of making WD relevant again, but also it allows GW to have a sold core list, that in turn can be built upon and altered to make the Legion lists; rather than the half-baked 2 page summary lists we got before.

I hope they do this with all my heart. ;)

The_Outsider
31-08-2007, 21:52
I am sorry, are you saying that loosing 4 codex's and traits means nothing to you? I have a hard time believing that, and i bet there are tons of Sm players would would be quite offended to loose deathwing, ravenwing, white scars, ravenguard, and so on, all in the name of balance.

I said it wouldn't mean nothing to me, what I am saying the last chaos codex tried to be both "renegade marines" and "Cult forces" and fudged both up.

Chaos is far more diverse than your typical sm chapters affair.


"Now you all can only play ultra marines and you only get a few minor troop choice options to try and make your army unique." = BS

And the codex redux SM is NOT here yet, so that is meaningless ATM.

"Now we can only play Black legion". Thats blatantly not true though is it?


Horus heresy? Sure why not. have generic marines options to represent chapters that simply turned their back on the empire. thats fine by me.

But a pure khrone army, or pure slaanesh, would not be anything like the chapters they stole marines from. They dont even use geneseeds to get more marines. So there should be equal representation of highly mutated and varied in equipment and formation in all chaos armies as they no longer adhere to the index astartes for equipment regs.




Agreed, problem is they would require codices within themselves, much like BA and DA.

GW have left the option open to do that in the future.

Eldar have the same problem, no more craftworlds yet it stopped you from building a biel tan army if you wanted has it?

The Song of Spears
31-08-2007, 22:19
I said it wouldn't mean nothing to me, what I am saying the last chaos codex tried to be both "renegade marines" and "Cult forces" and fudged both up.

Chaos is far more diverse than your typical sm chapters affair.


Ok, so lets get some more chaos codex's out there! :D



"Now we can only play Black legion". Thats blatantly not true though is it?

Sure i can mark my havocs with slaanesh, but they cant carry any noise guns, so they are in fact, little different than the nurgle ones, just one stat different. Thats a BS version of slaanesh, not a real option IMO.



Eldar have the same problem, no more craftworlds yet it stopped you from building a biel tan army if you wanted has it?
[/QUOTE]

No, not quite. I dont mean to be rude, at all, really. But it sounds like you never played much in the way of space marines and their variants or Eldar.

Eldar never had the range of models and rules/wargear options chaos did. While biel tan was a option to play it had no models in it that Saim hain could not also take, just more or less of any given model, but NO unique models.

IW = basilisk
Word Bearers = Chaplain
Slaanesh=noise guns for everyone, including tanks if you wanted
Khorne=chain axes, blood frenzy

the list goes on. many of these options need not have been nixed due to balance. just like there is no reason to nix Dark Angels due to a armour 14 skimmer being 'too powerful' .

Options like these make a army truly unique. The loss of all chaos armies and all space marine armys would totally change the face of the game. And not just for 'good balance' reasons. As many will see, this new chaos codex is plenty powerful, just no character.

L192837465
31-08-2007, 22:24
yay to the codex now, yay to the next deamon codex, yay to the 4 ruinous powers, boo to all the lesser ones.

i think "alpha legion" should be playable (5-20 marines leading 200 cultists) but none of that night lords (whats with thier helmets anyways?) or iron warriors (bassys are now vindis. you saved yourself 10 bucks)

IronNerd
31-08-2007, 22:30
I am going to take SoS side on this one. It seems to me that they are adding plenty of variety in the troop department... cool, I like it. That's about all. It seems to me like the codex is trying to get us to make troop only armies, throwing a little mix of all kinds in. I definitely think that a lot of people think this codex is great simply because: 1. it's apparently easier to write a list (I never had a problem before) and 2. they removed a decent amount of cheese.

The 'dex is simply uninspired.

Tulun
31-08-2007, 22:39
I think it's fine. Losing options that were never seen 99% of the time doesn't bother me; and there were definitely some loose threads that needed cutting from 3.5 Codex (and yes, I played CSM with the 3.5 codex).

I don't really understand why people hate the new Daemon Princes, either. With that gay lash, they have improved heavily. Even without it, they got a bunch of options you would GENERALLY use on a Daemon Prince anyway (Stature, strength, etc). If you work it out, with the Daemonic rune they got, the base cost of the new Daemon Prince got FREE stuff built in. Mandatory 'gifts' now, but you usually bought those gifts anyway. Oh, and it can hold objectives now, just like a Tyrant...
The new daemon weapons are risky, but they were supposed to be risky (you can't say Mastery was anything but a total joke...) and provide good benefits I think they do just that; they haven't got up in price if I recall, but they are actually RISKY to use if you want that up to 17 attack Khorne Lord. If you don't like the risk, don't use it... but instead of being no brainers, it's up to you to decide if that chance to potentially wipe out a squad is worth it to you.
This is just an example, by the way.


I think they should have included at least more Terminator specific legion forces, but otherwise, the codex is generally solid.

They have made it harder to simply cheap up and load up on heavy weapons (which I don't think is a bad thing...). If you want tank punch, there are plenty of options to rely on. Were they as cheap as a 6 man Las/Plas? No, but obviously, they have decided that no new Marines should have that option.

If you like the troop choice of Chaos (Berserkers, Plague marines, etc), you'll probably love this new codex. If you were all about the Daemons, you probably won't like it...

==Me==
31-08-2007, 22:42
Well, I don't play Chaos so I voted "Doesn't bother [==]Me[==]"

From what I've seen the Codex looks like a continuation of GWs new Codex trend, and I like it. The new cult units look nifty, choppy Defilers are fun, and the Codex remains Chaosy while being balanced. The only downsides are the bland daemons and possessed, but I assume the Daemon Codex will make up for it.

IJW
31-08-2007, 22:45
Khorne=chain axes, blood frenzy
This I have to take issue with.
Chain axes used to be roughly equivalent in effectiveness to a chainsword. Now they are roughly equivalent to a chainsword (again)...

Blood Frenzy was an abomination. :mad::mad::mad:
Khorne used to stand for martial prowess and skill, not frothing at the mouth looneys who would charge off towards the nearest model that they couldn't hurt/reach. Even the local Khorne player complained about how little tactical control he had over his own army. I think the phrase he used was 'Wind them up and let them go!'.

P.S. In case I've not said it, I do think that the codex could have been written better (grumble grumble $%@£ Lash grumble grumble). But a lot of what people are complaining about is a return to 2nd values, and to me those changes are for the better. In much the same way that the Eldar, DA, BA codexes all 'feel' much more like they did in 2nd ed. From the sounds of the Ork rumours that will go the same way, and about time - Orks lost a ton of their character in 3rd ed. :cries:

suplicor
31-08-2007, 22:50
I vote good,but not great.There are some inconsistencies.Why cant a Daemon Prince have a Daemon Weapon??No more retinues for Lords,so un less he joins a fearless unit,his fearlessness is lost....little things like that.But all in all a good codex,Chaos players will have to 'adjust' their play style and tactics.

The_Outsider
31-08-2007, 22:51
This I have to take issue with.
Chain axes used to be roughly equivalent in effectiveness to a chainsword. Now they are roughly equivalent to a chainsword (again)...

Blood Frenzy was an abomination. :mad::mad::mad:
Khorne used to stand for martial prowess and skill, not frothing at the mouth looneys who would charge off towards the nearest model that they couldn't hurt/reach. Even the local Khorne player complained about how little tactical control he had over his own army. I think the phrase he used was 'Wind them up and let them go!'.

P.S. In case I've not said it, I do think that the codex could have been written better (grumble grumble $%@£ Lash grumble grumble). But a lot of what people are complaining about is a return to 2nd values, and to me those changes are for the better. In much the same way that the Eldar, DA, BA codexes all 'feel' much more like they did in 2nd ed. From the sounds of the Ork rumours that will go the same way, and about time - Orks lost a ton of their character in 3rd ed. :cries:

This people is a winning post.

BA and DA feel right, eldar feel right and now chaos mariens feel right.

Not cult forces, jsut your typical chaos marine warband. They have access to those few specialised troops that are dedicated to a god.

The chaos to me is more like "chaos renegades + ad hoc cult forces".

malisteen
31-08-2007, 22:53
I don't care one way or another about the overall design philosophy (streamlining through cutting of cult, legion, and daemonic options), but there are too many rules and options and units that are either poorly written, poorly balanced, or just poorly thought out (spawn, lash, fire frenzy, etc) for my tastes.

For the record, though, my vote of 'bad' for the new codex should not be taken as a sign that I approved of the previous one. All in all, I like the new codex better then the previous one (at least for my black legion, if I played emperor's children or alpha legion I might not feel the same way), even though I still don't think it's very good.

DhaosAndy
31-08-2007, 22:56
My final comment will simply be this, if I had another army I would use that, since I don't I will endure this codex, nuff said.

IJW
31-08-2007, 22:57
'Is that your final answer?' ;)

Leonidas300
31-08-2007, 23:31
I generally like the direction of the new codexes. At my local store 40k has become "my list is better than yours, now lets roll dice and see if you get lucky". It's still a long ways from a great tactical game, but every little step is good.

But this codex is a bit of a mystery to me. The question I contemplate is why split chaos into renegades and deamons? Why not renegades and legions. If it was all a matter of page counts, and the plan was to split chaos into two books, why not leave legion specific units out and put the various deamons in?

Generic deamons have become a stop gap until the next codex. Will generic deamons even be viable when codex: deamons comes out? They aren't that good now. The number of pages in a codex has become a prescious resource. Its forcing them to make some really hard decisions like not focusing on legion armies and instead on some legion troops. When codex deamons comes out the pages that they dedicated to generic deamons will become a complete waste of space.

The obvious question when codex deamons comes out is why a whole codex for an army no one plays. But the hard quesion is why not a codex for the legions which many people play?

I'm very puzzled by this decision.

Hellebore
01-09-2007, 03:55
Eldar never had the range of models and rules/wargear options chaos did. While biel tan was a option to play it had no models in it that Saim hain could not also take, just more or less of any given model, but NO unique models.


Not a valid argument. The Craftworlds actually HAD their own codex, your supposedly precious and original chaos legions didn't even have that - they were all in a single codex even in 3.5.



IW = basilisk
Word Bearers = Chaplain
Slaanesh=noise guns for everyone, including tanks if you wanted
Khorne=chain axes, blood frenzy

the list goes on. many of these options need not have been nixed due to balance. just like there is no reason to nix Dark Angels due to a armour 14 skimmer being 'too powerful' .



Word Bearers 'Chaplain' = a 4+ invulnerable save, power weapon, and demagogue ability. Don't be disingenuous, the 'chaplain' is composed of disparate elements, and apart from demagogue can be completely recreated in the new dex.

chain axes/blood frenzy = two special rules, not model options (the khorne berserker box set comes with chainswords as well as a chainaxes). Neither make berserkers special. The new berserker stats and rules are not WORSE than these, just a different way to represent them.



Options like these make a army truly unique. The loss of all chaos armies and all space marine armys would totally change the face of the game. And not just for 'good balance' reasons. As many will see, this new chaos codex is plenty powerful, just no character.


If a rule on your close combat weapons and lack of control over your units makes an army truly unique then you've got a narrow vision of what 'unique' actually IS.

The Khorne Berserkers' have more(or the same) new stats and rules than they used to.

However, people are determined to hate this codex, and enjoy doing so, so anything anyone says in support of it is going to be dakka-ised into GW apologists/lackeys/panseys...

Hellebore

byteboy
01-09-2007, 03:58
I voted "Bad".I won't get into why.

Stella Cadente
01-09-2007, 05:28
in the end apart from a small group of people who would renounce the Codex even if it was made by a chaos God itself, the codex is obviously popular and is a good thing, just like all the redos..........except Eldar

byteboy
01-09-2007, 05:31
:rolleyes:

Rioghan Murchadha
01-09-2007, 05:40
Why shouldn't the cults be in the book? The options allow you to field troops slightly given over to chaos (no icon), well-trod on a path (icons) or fully immeresed in worship of a ruinous power (cult troops). Why should a renegade force not have those choices. Not all cult troops should neccessarily belong solely to one of the four Legions associated with the specific chaos gods (Thousand Sons apart for obvious reasons).

You mention it yourself here. They should have come up with some other 'cult' troop type for Tzeentch. Renegades should NOT have access to Rubric Marines, nor should ANY undivided force, or any other legion for that matter. Rubrics belong solely to the Thousand Sons legion, and are not there to provide AP3 bolter fire to any schmuck who wants to paint his spikey marines black.

(In case you haven't guessed, I'm a Sons player :p)

I also think that it's rather insulting to those of us who have collected Legion Specific armies to distill said dedicated legions down to a single troop type. Now my terminators are faster than everyone else, and apparently are all new inductees to the legion.

My main dislike of the new Codex however, is an aesthetic one. Why, oh why, could they not make the headers for each unit type more distinct? The actual army list pages are the fugliest I've seen in ages.

Also, I, along with most of the world am right handed. When I flip through a book, I flip with my right hand, from front towards the back. Why is the army list AFTER all the fugging advertising crap, right at the ass end of the book?

Thoth62
01-09-2007, 07:14
You mention it yourself here. They should have come up with some other 'cult' troop type for Tzeentch. Renegades should NOT have access to Rubric Marines, nor should ANY undivided force, or any other legion for that matter. Rubrics belong solely to the Thousand Sons legion, and are not there to provide AP3 bolter fire to any schmuck who wants to paint his spikey marines black.

Why the heck not? The Black legion has the ability to recreate the rubric... Ahriman and his entire cabal has been exiled from the planet of sorcerers, along with their troops. What's wrong with an exiled sorcerer allying himself and those under his command with another force. Can you seriously give me a good reason why renegades and other legions should not be able to have rubrics?


(In case you haven't guessed, I'm a Sons player :p)

I also think that it's rather insulting to those of us who have collected Legion Specific armies to distill said dedicated legions down to a single troop type. Now my terminators are faster than everyone else, and apparently are all new inductees to the legion.

Hey, I'm also a TS player. Have been for several years. I'm not offended by it. To be brutally honest, how many unique troop types did Thousand Sons have that nobody else could get? All the dedicated cult legions were was a couple of units that everybody else and their dog could still get, except with a few self imposed restrictions. Which is why I'm confused as to why you seem to be under the impression that we can still build these legions in the new codex. They haven't distilled the cult legions down to a single troops choice, they've gotten rid of the legions entirely.


My main dislike of the new Codex however, is an aesthetic one. Why, oh why, could they not make the headers for each unit type more distinct? The actual army list pages are the fugliest I've seen in ages.

Also, I, along with most of the world am right handed. When I flip through a book, I flip with my right hand, from front towards the back. Why is the army list AFTER all the fugging advertising crap, right at the ass end of the book?

I'm guessing most, if not all of the english speaking left handed people also flip their book from the front to the back. I would venture to guess that this is because it is the standard format for all english, and quite a few non-english literary works. To be honest, I'd rather just open up to the back of the book and have my army list there, than have to flip through it to find the section just before the colour pictures, but after the background to find the list. I'd say that the army list is at the back end of the book because its easier to just flip open to when you need it.

Rioghan Murchadha
01-09-2007, 07:33
Why the heck not? The Black legion has the ability to recreate the rubric... Ahriman and his entire cabal has been exiled from the planet of sorcerers, along with their troops. What's wrong with an exiled sorcerer allying himself and those under his command with another force. Can you seriously give me a good reason why renegades and other legions should not be able to have rubrics?

Well, considering what the Rubric did the first time it was cast, I doubt Abbaddon would be pleased to have every non-psyker in the BL killed and soul-fused to his suit. Given the scope and effect of the rubric, it doesn't lend itself to being 'mixed' with living non-psychic units. At least from a background perspective.

Yes, Ahriman and his cabal were exiled, but I don't recall reading anywhere where Magnus exiled any of the Rubric Marines with them. I would likely peg Ahriman's cabal as chosen if I had to assign them a unit entry, thus they wouldn't have had command of any squads of rubrics to take with them.




Hey, I'm also a TS player. Have been for several years. I'm not offended by it. To be brutally honest, how many unique troop types did Thousand Sons have that nobody else could get? All the dedicated cult legions were was a couple of units that everybody else and their dog could still get, except with a few self imposed restrictions. Which is why I'm confused as to why you seem to be under the impression that we can still build these legions in the new codex. They haven't distilled the cult legions down to a single troops choice, they've gotten rid of the legions entirely.

They didn't really have any other than Rubric Marines and Terminators.. Although I would call the Chosen an effective loss as they aren't sorcerers anymore. I'm personally not under any illusion that you can build the God specific legions with the new codex, and that's one of the reasons I don't like it. The Sons were a tough force to really use effectively, due to the limitations, but were fun to play, and I quite liked the imagery and background.




I'm guessing most, if not all of the english speaking left handed people also flip their book from the front to the back. I would venture to guess that this is because it is the standard format for all english, and quite a few non-english literary works. To be honest, I'd rather just open up to the back of the book and have my army list there, than have to flip through it to find the section just before the colour pictures, but after the background to find the list. I'd say that the army list is at the back end of the book because its easier to just flip open to when you need it.

Problem is, that being right handed, I do my flipping with my right hand, which puts my thumb at the front of the book. It's counterintuitive to flip to the dead back of the book this way. A niggling little detail yes, and it goes right up there with the 3rd ed books not having the summary sheet standardized as the last page in the book. My main beef is with the actual visuals of the army list entries. Very bland.

Thoth62
01-09-2007, 07:45
I feel like smacking my head against something right now, but that may have to do with the fact that I desperately need sleep. So I'll get some when I'm done this post.

Abaddon's sorcerers in the black legion know how to replicate the rubric on a small scale. Gav has stated this on more than one occasion. The Black Legion know the secrets to creating all of the cult marines, from the rubric to the psycho-surgery, to the cult of slaanesh. They know how to do it.

Ahriman and his cabal would have had command of numerous marines under them. Even those that would have survived the rubric and come out as automatons. I find it very hard to believe that they would have just left without 'followers' (in a somewhat twisted sense of the word).

Or you could just open up to the back of the book and be in the right spot.

To be honest, I like the layout of the army list. Everything is in the right spot. Headings are easy to see, and all the rules and options are laid out in an easy to read, and easy to follow manner. It makes for very efficient army building, which is really all you need it for.

Hellebore
01-09-2007, 07:45
Problem is, that being right handed, I do my flipping with my right hand, which puts my thumb at the front of the book. It's counterintuitive to flip to the dead back of the book this way. A niggling little detail yes, and it goes right up there with the 3rd ed books not having the summary sheet standardized as the last page in the book. My main beef is with the actual visuals of the army list entries. Very bland.

Isn't that true of any english printed book?

And what exactly does one expect in an army list? The stats and equipment. How could it be any less bland than numbers and dot points with letters after them?

The army list is what tournament players have whined for years for - a short concise list to make an army. The special rules are in their own section, so you only need to look them up after you've already made the army.

Neither the army list nor the forces section need ever be used in conjunction - one is for MAKING lists, and the other is for USING THEM.

Hellebore

Sovereign
01-09-2007, 08:04
As I've said elsewhere, this is a better Codex. It's clearer and easier to use, and far more playable, with lots of Troops options and better balance between unit types.

Kallbrand
01-09-2007, 08:10
Some options are just so much better then the rest that most armies will start to look the same. At least if pepole try to play hardball.

Also, there is so much less to choose from untill demon codex comes along at least.

Sovereign
01-09-2007, 08:20
What would all you space marine players say if i said, lets take away ALL space marines variants, ALL OF THEM, and put them into ONE codex, with NO OPTIONS to make any of their unique lists or abilities.

We the CSM players want our armies back, and "balance" is not a good enough reason to make 5 SM codex's and 1 CSM codex.
Besides being a CSM player, I'm also a SM player, but I wouldn't care much if all of the non-SM Codexes went away. I'm perfectly OK playing all-in-one vanilla SM (current SM Codex). I'm also OK if they nerf the SM book to new-style SM with Combat Squads and no Traits, as I'd just switch to Blood Angels (with Combat Squads). If they pull SM back to their original 40k3 Codex, without any of the sub-Codexes, I'm OK with that, too. None of that stuff bothers me. The vanilla SM book is pretty good, you know...

We, the CSM players, *have* our armies, and they're balanced just fine. That said, I'm sure you'll get your additional CSM Codexes in due time. When that happens, I'd expect a 40k5 CSM book that drops the Cult Units to drop from the basic CSM list.

Rioghan Murchadha
01-09-2007, 08:35
I feel like smacking my head against something right now, but that may have to do with the fact that I desperately need sleep. So I'll get some when I'm done this post.

Abaddon's sorcerers in the black legion know how to replicate the rubric on a small scale. Gav has stated this on more than one occasion. The Black Legion know the secrets to creating all of the cult marines, from the rubric to the psycho-surgery, to the cult of slaanesh. They know how to do it.

This may be where we have a problem. I tend to ignore Gav's very existence, and every word he utters, ever since his disatrous tenure as head of fantasy development.

Of course Teh Black Legion know how to do everything.. They're black.. They're the 'big bad guys' (tm)

Besides.. I have difficulty believing that arguably one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy (Ahriman) with his cabal of uber sorcerers couldn't control the rubric, and wiped the entirety of the non-psychic 1k sons out of existence, yet Abbadon's pet sorcerers can somehow produce a couple rubrics at a time? How? Are they blessed by Tzeentch with the ability to make marines immune to change and therefore the antithesis of what Tzeentch stands for? More verbal buggery by Gav, along the lines of the short lived ruling "Mortars need line of sight to an enemy to fire, but cannons don't."


Ahriman and his cabal would have had command of numerous marines under them. Even those that would have survived the rubric and come out as automatons. I find it very hard to believe that they would have just left without 'followers' (in a somewhat twisted sense of the word).
Frankly, I find it mildly stupid that if Magnus was so pissed at what Ahriman did in the first place, he didn't just kill him outright. It's not like there was a teenager/parent argument, and Ahriman packed up his stuff and went to sleep over at a friend's house. (all conjecture) but I imagine that Ahriman was lucky to get away with the armour on his back.


Or you could just open up to the back of the book and be in the right spot.

To be honest, I like the layout of the army list. Everything is in the right spot. Headings are easy to see, and all the rules and options are laid out in an easy to read, and easy to follow manner. It makes for very efficient army building, which is really all you need it for.
I would mainly like to see some consistency between books as to where the list/bestiary sections are located.


Isn't that true of any english printed book?

And what exactly does one expect in an army list? The stats and equipment. How could it be any less bland than numbers and dot points with letters after them?

Hellebore
The layout is fine.. Although I wish they would've straight up cribbed the exact layout of the fantasy books, instead of the half assed job they did.

The unit headers are not substantially bigger than the rest of the text on the page, and there is nothing to really make them stand out as what they are. Very little is boxed, or arranged so as to intuitively belong to a given area of the page. They could've at least made better use of shading, or borders of some sort. It's very plain, and ugly.

As to it being less bland.. look at the fantasy books.. They typically, even in the army list sections, contain sidebar art, or some sort of decorative background to the page itself.

Edit: You know what.. I just had an epiphany. Despite what everybody tends to say, the background for 40k stinks.. It's such a twisted, jumbled *************, with the dev team coming up with new ********* every time they do something that goes against something they previously said. It can pretty much be distilled down to 'medieval fantasy with lasers and chainsaws in space'

Vineas
01-09-2007, 08:37
I like the new Codex. I hated 3.5 so much I sold my Chaos off to support my Tau and Eldar armies. This new Codex has brought me back into Chaos and I know I won't regret it.

silashand
01-09-2007, 09:07
I like the new Codex. I hated 3.5 so much I sold my Chaos off to support my Tau and Eldar armies. This new Codex has brought me back into Chaos and I know I won't regret it.

The exact opposite is true for me. I dislike the new one so much my two chaos armies (TS and AL) will now sit on the shelf for the foreseeable future. Oh well.


As to it being less bland.. look at the fantasy books.. They typically, even in the army list sections, contain sidebar art, or some sort of decorative background to the page itself.

Check the new ones for 7th. It seems a lot of that has gone the wayside of late with the new OG and Empire books.

Cheers, Gary

Hellebore
01-09-2007, 09:10
The exact opposite is true for me. I dislike the new one so much my two chaos armies (TS and AL) will now sit on the shelf for the foreseeable future. Oh well.

Cheers, Gary

And this is why personal anecdotal opinions are a bad way to ascertain the popularity of a product.

Here we have two people evincing diametrically opposed view points.

Thus proving once again that you can't please all people all the time and that people crying this is the worst codex eva! are matched by people who say the opposite. Neither are right or wrong, and so we end up with new things unseating the old and vice versa.

Hellebore

leonmallett
01-09-2007, 09:11
Firstly, my comments on the codex go to show i am unbiased and open minded towards the changes. And that as i stated, some of them will even benefit my old chaos army. What i was lamenting was not the codex's effectiveness, as so many who dont really read what i posted get confused over. I was sad that GW has decided that it is better to simplify a codex and its rules in the name of balance and not in the name of fluff. Which, in a game that is not like chess or warmachine, i think is very important.

Games should be about balance. Fluff accompanies the game, but it cannot drive it, as fluff is about the whims of the various writers trying to capture the ethos of the game universe, not trying to capture actual games as pices of fiction. If you want it otherwise, simply recreate the fluffy engagement from the stories where evidently unbalanced forces meet, and don't worry about fluff. If the game were powered by fluff a single space marine (Imperial or Chaos flavour) would be costing the same as a squad of IG, or a brood of Gaunts, and be able to take them on fairly. Which if you want it is never going to happen.



I dont play warmachine because i dont like that they wont let you customize your every model. If Gw keeps down this path, there will be little separating the two and they will loose business because there is no longer any reason to stick to GW and its poor management and overpriced models. On top of the money lost for not allowing in game reasons to convert and kitbash models.

There is nothing to stop you customizing your Chaos army, you just don't have to worry about paying the points costs for what should be cosmetic aspects. Want a chainaxe instead of a chainsword? Great, have it. They should work the same though. And now they do. Want spiky bits? Ugly heads? Go for it.



Hey, if you hate options and game mechanics that requite army individuality, then by all means, go for the new codex. But there are those of us who, in our personal opinion, believe that certain options have no need for removal, and that special rules can be balanced. Thus we feel there is no need to remove rules mechanics that generate unique armies. This is what this codex does not do, in any way at all. If you dont understand how that can generate more true uniqueness than picking one troop type over the other can, then i dont think we will be able to understand eachother.

I don't hate options that require army individuality beacuse it doesn't really exist, except in your mind. If it is enforced, and it is retrictive, it is not individuality, it is actually a blueprint. That individuality you talk of, actually created restriction. Now you can have true individuality of your own choosing.



Apparently you have not noticed that there is a codex space marines, codex dark angels, codex black templars, codex blood angels, codex space wolves, and so on. People lack of imagination when it comes to expanding out all the options a true Khorne only army would have, thus needing its own codex, is again, sad.

I haven't noticed? Oooh sarcasm. Very witty. :rolleyes: I own them all. I would also like to see and buy a codex for each ruinous power, but simple business economics indicate that will take time for GW to do that, if they choose to. Face it there is a finite amount of resources to produce GW releases across three main systems, and a glut of books and models in a one area (ie lots of chaos at once) would hurt the company fiscally. This way they can test the waters so to speak.


What would all you space marine players say if i said, lets take away ALL space marines variants, ALL OF THEM, and put them into ONE codex, with NO OPTIONS to make any of their unique lists or abilities.

See my answer above. I have to wait until possibly 2009 for a new Space Wolves codex, so be thankful.



You would rage and gnash teeth at GW, and yet we CSM players are supposed to roll over and take this codex like we deserved the loss. To hell with anyone who thinks this is a good codex, yet supports all the variants of SM getting their own codex. We the CSM players want our armies back, and "balance" is not a good enough reason to make 5 SM codex's and 1 CSM codex.

I built 2000 points of 13th Company and about 1000 points of Lost and the Damned and I am high and dry. It happens. I am not 'gnashing my teeth' for either the proposed 2009 wait or having to rebuild my 13th Company army to be legal as a Space wolves army, I am adapting. Try it sometime.




Still stuck on IW eh? You one of the sad individuals who never figured out how to beat them? IW never won a US GT. Only ever won 3 GT's over seas since the codex came out. Funny, for such a powerhouse army, they don't seem to dominate very much over the 6+ years they were avaiable to use...

I would suggest that in the UK the Iron Warriors placed very highly for a number of years. As did Night Lords and Alpha Legion. Chaos Space Marines were over-represented in the top finishers, winners aside.

Thanks for the comment about being a sad individual. Resorting to veiled insult shows weakness in your position. Nice.


this gripe of individuality is not to bring back power armies. i think this new CSM codex is plenty powerful. its all the other options that made traitor legions fun, for the same reason why SM have Dark Angels, Blood angles, Templars, Wolves, etc...

Individuality remains. You can construct unique looking models which boils down to wanting individuality of rules. If you cannot accept that the last iteration of Codex Chaos Space Marines was broken, then you need to ask yourself why you cannot see that.

Oh, and check out the polling. It is a small sample size, but a trend has emerged. No codex will please everyone, but the majority appear pleased so far.

silashand
01-09-2007, 09:17
Thus proving once again that you can't please all people all the time

Actually, had they included the legions instead of focusing almost exclusively on renegades I think they would probably have done so. Even Gav in the quotes provided in other threads stated they *knew* dropping them would cause contention, yet they did it anyway and without a definite plan for readdressing them. Sorry, but ephemeral pipe-dreams are no excuse for intentionally p*ssing off customers when you know you have no definite plans to fix the problem. In that respect they failed miserably with this codex even if it does appeal to some people.

Cheers, Gary

silashand
01-09-2007, 09:24
Individuality remains. You can construct unique looking models which boils down to wanting individuality of rules. If you cannot accept that the last iteration of Codex Chaos Space Marines was broken, then you need to ask yourself why you cannot see that.

Broken is subjective in many cases. While some players may not have liked it, the fact remains that it was hardly so "broken" that it dominated all games around as evidenced by its placement in tournament results around the world. If it were as bad as you say then I believe it would have had a much better showing than it did. Just because you can make an army that isn't fun to play against does not make it broken in any context. I fully expect to see the Lash prince/three-vindicator list be one of the norms once the book reaches full release. Personally I'd rather face any current CSM army myself, but oh well.


Oh, and check out the polling. It is a small sample size, but a trend has emerged. No codex will please everyone, but the majority appear pleased so far.

Like polling on any internet site proves anything. The "trend" is that only players interested in the topic will read the thread anyway, thus introducing bias at the onset and skewing the results. Using such "data" to prove anything is flawed to begin with since the method used is non-scientific and inappropriate.

Cheers, Gary

byteboy
01-09-2007, 09:26
Silashand: I am already seeing 3 people making 2x Lash Prince/Thousand Sons/DeathGuard/9 Obliterator armies in my area..............yay......

silashand
01-09-2007, 09:31
Silashand: I am already seeing 3 people making 2x Lash Prince/Thousand Sons/DeathGuard/9 Obliterator armies in my area..............yay......

I predict in a year's time people will have forgotten how much they hated IW lists because the new ones will be just as bad if not worse ;).

Cheers, Gary

winter has ended
01-09-2007, 09:36
i belive itrs better then the previous one but is over powered a lot, i mean terminators get something lik 6 or 7 attacks each that can re roll failed wounds:confused: 2+ invulnerable save bikers, etc etc its just not very nice at all

Ronin_eX
01-09-2007, 09:37
Soooo, I ask the question asked during the hubbub of the DA whinge-fest: How many people who outright hate the new codex have played, oh say, more than 10 or so games with it? How many have actually tried building an effective list and playing even just one before passing judgment? How many have made a knee-jerk opinion on the codex and refuse to use it based on a single reading or even just the rumours?

People should learn to keep an open mind and try new things even if they may not initially like the idea of them. Who knows you may come to like the new codex, or at worst you will know that your hate is at least well founded in experience.

Myself I love the new dex, it brings back the flavour Chaos Marines had in 2nd edition and they will certainly become the second army I collect (7000 points of DA seems to be "finished" enough for me in any case, time for a new army). They have a great range for conversion possibilities and themed lists (yes the Legions are easily represented using a good old, home grown, themed list now and that is fine with me). You can do something as simple as a World Eaters army full of Khorne marked units and some assault craziness or you can represent odd alliances or weird splinter cult renegade forces. You just need to keep an open mind and remember that special rules aren't everything.

Vaktathi
01-09-2007, 09:38
My personal opinion on the new codex is that overall as an army list its not bad at all, although not exactly a masterwork, as there are still several "no brainer" choices (e.g. Raptors over Bikes) . The fluff however leaves alot to be desired, and the removal of Legion rules isnt going to go quietly.

dcikgyurt
01-09-2007, 09:52
See this new background on recent renegades is really just a little silly, so we are expected to believe that as soon as a chapter turns traiter all it's speeders fall from the sky and it's infantry toting plasma cannon just melt, Bah humbug.:p

Recent renegades should be the province of codex SM not CSM.:(

Depends on when they went traitor. If it was a while back then use Codex:CSM, if it was last week then use Codex:SM. It mostly depends on your own fluff. As far as plasma cannons and landspeeders go, why couldn't they be looted from the battlefield. A techmarine who can build a defiler from scratch should be able to reverse engineer a 'speeder or plasma cannon, or at least repair one.

That said, the extra background for the renegades like the Red Corsairs is good IMHO. And was kinda needed. They may have been better off making Codex:Traitors and Codex:Renegades instead of Codex:CSM and Codex: Daemons. However, what's done is done now and there's little or nothing we can do about it.

Vineas
01-09-2007, 09:54
Not hard to please the majority when their standards are low.

Nice trolling byteboy. I don't have low standards nor do I have outrageous expectations and as you can tell I love the new Codex and the DA and the Eldar one. I don't like everything about the 3, there are things that bother me and make me go :wtf: but it's not the end of the world.

You troll and flame in a lot of your posts if somebody doesn't share your opinion. You'd fit right in over at Dakka. ;)

byteboy
01-09-2007, 09:57
I like Dakka alot. People speak their mind and don't go with the majority. You need to stop these personal attacks on me. I expected much more from the last 3 books. Hell, the models cost so much, you'd think more effort was put into the books.

FYI, it's only "trolling" if what was said, is true about the people who read it....No is forcing you to respond.

winter has ended
01-09-2007, 10:01
erm well my store has had their army for about 4 weeks ive played them 4 times and seen them play lots, they are very nasty to play agiasnt,

Vineas
01-09-2007, 10:03
I'm not making personal attacks. My comment was not an attack, just an idea. Making comments on peoples standards is a personal attack.

From what I have seen of Dakka they are the flaming opposite of Warseer. The majority over there are the "glass half-empty people". Nothing seems to satisfy them. I see dakka posts saying that Warseer is full of apologists and fanboys and so if you don't like something you get flamed. If you read HBMC's review of the Codex (extremely biased but still his opinion on it), you would see anyone that has anything good to say about it getting flamed as well. Both sides do it so don't even try to say Dakka allows freedom of speech because it's the same over there as it is over here. Neither sides viewpoints are superior to the other side and Warseers and Dakkaites will never get along for those reasons.

So don't say anything if all you have is "people who like the Chaos codex have low standards". That is a flame. Period.

byteboy
01-09-2007, 10:07
Not really. Maybe to you it is. And you, what you said was a personal attack, whether you think it was or not.

Again, I expect more from GW,especially when their models cost alot and all their rules are becoming more simplified.

I have just as much right to voice my opinion as you do. Especially when the "little guy" has more opposition against themselves. So you can either think about where the "little guy" is coming from or just not reply. Plain and simple.

You happy now? So don't report me to try and get me banned for not being buddy buddy with you.

Vineas
01-09-2007, 10:15
i belive itrs better then the previous one but is over powered a lot, i mean terminators get something lik 6 or 7 attacks each that can re roll failed wounds:confused: 2+ invulnerable save bikers, etc etc its just not very nice at all

Re-read the codex or read it in the first place if you haven't already. The termies that get 6 attacks are also damn near 300 pts for 5 (add 30 to the cost of an LRC for the exact cost) so something that will rarely, if ever, be seen; at least not at a tournament.

Bikes get 2+ inv. when they turbo-boost and only if they take an IoT. The ONLY time. Good to keep them alive post a turn 6 mad dash to get objectives but once again also very high in cost and not something I'm sensing a lot of (IoN being the most popular use for bikes it seems).

Vineas
01-09-2007, 10:30
Not really. Maybe to you it is. And you, what you said was a personal attack, whether you think it was or not.

Again, I expect more from GW,especially when their models cost alot and all their rules are becoming more simplified.

I have just as much right to voice my opinion as you do. Especially when the "little guy" has more opposition against themselves. So you can either think about where the "little guy" is coming from or just not reply. Plain and simple.

You happy now? So don't report me to try and get me banned for not being buddy buddy with you.

I'm not gonna report you. Goddamn dude, it's only a forum. I have more important real life issues to deal with than some unknown face in an unknow place flaming me or even caring what the hell my opinion is.

I'm not going to get worked up over a game/hobby that 95% of the populace OUTSIDE the hobby see as being a bunch of nerds who have never been outside their parents houses, have never seen a real pair of tits and have no idea what to even do with a person of the opposite sex.

Stella Cadente
01-09-2007, 10:33
well once players get a couple of games with the new Codex and realize that not much has changed and there just limiting themselves (you don't cut your nose off to spite your face as they say) because...........well because it lets them have good moan, then we can move on to the new codex to nag and whine over

byteboy
01-09-2007, 10:36
It's cool man. I'm just tired of being the minority and having people brush me off like I don't mean anything. Trying really hard to "like" this new book, but with so much time/$ put into just this one army, its real hard to accept all these changes I think should have been thought out better.

Everyone of us in this hobby should expect more from this company, seeing as how their figures cost more and they are the #1 table top gaming company. Maybe my standards are too high (like their prices), just trying to make everyone known the little guy matters too.

winter has ended
01-09-2007, 10:39
ok i wouldnt know if you see them at tournies as most people who play 40k do it ion store not at them, so yes you will see a few at your local store
and sorry i dont know if it hasnt changed much as the new chaos seem to be appearing as no one played the oold ones , just new ones here now, i guess i just find it annoying as they can rush iunto you with rhinos, then jump out, termies and loads of daemons come down its just kinda nasty

Stella Cadente
01-09-2007, 10:40
Everyone of us in this hobby should expect more from this company, seeing as how their figures cost more and they are the #1 table top gaming company. Maybe my standards are too high (like their prices), just trying to make everyone known the little guy matters too.


Again, I expect more from GW,especially when their models cost alot and all their rules are becoming more simplified.


Hell, the models cost so much, you'd think more effort was put into the books.


theres a pattern forming here

Vineas
01-09-2007, 10:58
If it makes anyone feel better PP has increased pricing on all their stuff. $10 US for the starter boxes and like $1 or $2 per individual blister. Apparently metal has gone up. Now that's either a lie like GW supposedly does or it's the truth and GW had some merit in it's latest hike.

I know it's the first one in years but that doesn't mean PP won't/can't end up hiking prices annually like GW does.

As is opinion, alot of people feel good effort was put into 4th edition 'dexes so far. Some glaring mistakes but Gav and JJ and Phil ARE only human and things get overlooked. I guess that's where video game developers get lucky. If a PC or PS3 or 360 game ends up with a glaringly bad mistake it can be fixed with a simple patch, GW and PP don't have that luxury. If something makes it through the cracks the only solution is to FAQ it (which adds a whole new set of problems), fix it in a WD article (again, not really feasible), release a redux of the codex and make people spend another $22, or the final and easiest option financially which is to just let it ride it's course.

GW tried the redux thing with the last 'dex and there ended up being like 3 or 4 different prints of it with different wording in each of them. It's easy to point fingers and say Gav and Phil and JJ don't know their jobs but **** happens and things get by.

You're tired of feeling like you get attacked all the time. I'm tired of seeing people call JJ and Gav derogatory names and make derogatory comments about JJ's son. When I see someone post a remark about a game developers son being a simpleton, from that point on I will never read another thing they have to say. That shows immaturity and childishness and just straight up makes that person look like an a**hole and any other name I can think of.

leonmallett
01-09-2007, 11:38
Like polling on any internet site proves anything. The "trend" is that only players interested in the topic will read the thread anyway, thus introducing bias at the onset and skewing the results. Using such "data" to prove anything is flawed to begin with since the method used is non-scientific and inappropriate.

Cheers, Gary


Those interested in the topic will be biased by having opinion. That opinion may be negative or positive. I stated the sample size was small, that perhaps the results don't support the view of a vocal minority against the new codex. It isn't a scientifically robust survey, but a trend has emerged. And the question headlining the poll is an open one, reducing bias.

leonmallett
01-09-2007, 12:07
Broken is subjective in many cases. While some players may not have liked it, the fact remains that it was hardly so "broken" that it dominated all games around as evidenced by its placement in tournament results around the world. If it were as bad as you say then I believe it would have had a much better showing than it did. Just because you can make an army that isn't fun to play against does not make it broken in any context. I fully expect to see the Lash prince/three-vindicator list be one of the norms once the book reaches full release. Personally I'd rather face any current CSM army myself, but oh well.

...Cheers, Gary

Some data from the UK 2006 GT season, using the top 40 placings. I use the heats beacuse the finals are well known for more free choices being made (at least in the UK), and the heats are primarily about success to qualify for the finals. Chaos Space Marines had the best showing by some margin. You state, silashand: "the fact remains that it was hardly so "broken" that it dominated all games around as evidenced by its placement in tournament results around the world." I think the data here refutes your argument somewhat.

2006 Top 40
Heat 1 Chaos Space Marines 12
Space Marines 6
Eldar 8
Tau 7
Tyranids 2
Necrons 1
Dark Eldar 2
Daemonhunters 1
Witch Hunters 0
Orks 0
Imperial Guard 1
CSM 30% of top 40

Heat 2 Chaos Space Marines 13
Space Marines 10
Eldar 3
Tau 5
Tyranids 1
Necrons 3
Dark Eldar 3
Daemonhunters 0
Witch Hunters 0
Orks 0
Imperial Guard 2
CSM 32.5% of top 40

Heat 3 Chaos Space Marines 11
Space Marines 10
Eldar 4
Tau 5
Tyranids 3
Necrons 2
Dark Eldar 1
Daemonhunters 2
Witch Hunters 0
Orks 1
Imperial Guard 1
CSM 27.5% of top 40


Of 120 players over three heats making up the top 40, Chaos Space Marines make up 30%, Space Marines 21.67%, Tau 14.17%, Eldar 12.5%, Tyranids 5%, Necrons 5%, Dark Eldar 5%, Imperial Guard 3.33%, Daemonhunters 2.5%, Orks 0.83%, Witch Hunters 0%.

silashand
01-09-2007, 12:26
Tjose interested in the topic will be biased by having oinion, That opinion may be negative or positive. I stated the sample size was small, that perhaps the results don't support the view of a vocal minority against the new codex. It isn't a scientifically robust survey, but a trend has emerged. And the quiestion headlining the poll is an opne one, reducing bias.

Doesn't work. You can't control the sample set so any data is valid only for the participants in the poll and cannot be generalized across *any* wider audience including other members of this site. Plus as others have mentioned there is the potential for false data being entered. Having it be an open question is irrelevant when there are no control measures in place. That's just basic research methods and statistics.

Cheers, Gary

Draconian Lord
01-09-2007, 12:37
A lot of the good fluff that was in the last one was taken out. A little oversimplified, but still a well balanced list. I'll miss my Khornate Chainaxes, my random blood rage, and a couple other elements from the older codex's, but I enjoy the return of the second edition feel of the codex.

leonmallett
01-09-2007, 13:18
Doesn't work. You can't control the sample set so any data is valid only for the participants in the poll and cannot be generalized across *any* wider audience including other members of this site. Plus as others have mentioned there is the potential for false data being entered. Having it be an open question is irrelevant when there are no control measures in place. That's just basic research methods and statistics.

Cheers, Gary

I haven't suggested it is statistically robust, but then again no-one is going to be conducting any widespread survey any time soon. That said you have to accept that within the context of this poll, from which I am not generalising, the result indicates that those who have voted, have largely voted favourably in this thread.

lord_blackfang
01-09-2007, 16:02
Soooo, I ask the question asked during the hubbub of the DA whinge-fest: How many people who outright hate the new codex have played, oh say, more than 10 or so games with it?

I suspect many of them haven't even played a single one ;)

malisteen
01-09-2007, 16:59
This really is the most half-arsed of the 4th ed books so far. Very little effort put into making sure all the units are viable, and while I'll forgive them for not realizing how abusive eldar skimmers would turn out to be (it's very difficult to balance expensive, poorly armored skimmers), Lash is so obviously problematic that I can't see how any thought went into it at all.

Look at eldar. Every unit has its uses, and every unit has some fans who never leave home without it. Once people get used to the new book, I severely doubt that the same will be said for chaos.

jfrazell
01-09-2007, 17:39
Nice trolling byteboy. I don't have low standards nor do I have outrageous expectations and as you can tell I love the new Codex and the DA and the Eldar one. I don't like everything about the 3, there are things that bother me and make me go :wtf: but it's not the end of the world.

You troll and flame in a lot of your posts if somebody doesn't share your opinion. You'd fit right in over at Dakka. ;)

Of course on Dakka, they've already analyzed the first combat efficient list, which as noted previously, you will be seeing a lot of.

Dooks Dizzo
01-09-2007, 17:47
I like the rules, some of the fluff however is just pire garbage.

It's like they forgot that the HH books have been written.

Sarevok
01-09-2007, 18:45
I suspect many of them haven't even played a single one ;)

Yeah, it's wrong for people to say they hate the codex before they've used it.
Of course, it's NOT wrong for people like yourself to say they like the codex before they've used it.:rolleyes:

Ah, hypocrisy.

lord_blackfang
01-09-2007, 19:35
Yeah, it's wrong for people to say they hate the codex before they've used it.
Of course, it's NOT wrong for people like yourself to say they like the codex before they've used it.:rolleyes:

Ah, hypocrisy.

Sorry to disappoint, but I have, in fact, already used the new Codex.



Of course on Dakka, they've already analyzed the first combat efficient list, which as noted previously, you will be seeing a lot of.
Translation: one of the alpha males posted what he predicts will be the best list. No playtesting needed, he knows best.

Sarevok
01-09-2007, 19:48
Sorry to disappoint, but I have, in fact, already used the new Codex.

You never gave an opinion on the chaos rules before you'd used them, then? You didn't make any comments at all on the rumors?
Ya you did, man. Evidence is there, unless you go and baleet all your old posts. :eyebrows:

Hey, I don't need to punch myself in the nuts to know it'll hurt.
I don't need to play with the Chaos Codex to know it sucks.

Vineas
01-09-2007, 19:52
Of course on Dakka, they've already analyzed the first combat efficient list, which as noted previously, you will be seeing a lot of.

It's people like that that make me wonder why GW even write a codex because no matter how good everything is power gamers will find the handful of units that are .5% better than similiar units and only ever construct lists using those units. Everything can be balanced but mathematically it's impossibe to make every single unit 100% balanced against everything. Something will be better by at least .5% and it's really sad that people exploit that.

Hell, I've already seen just about everyone say "take harlies over anything else because they are MARGINALLY better on paper." :wtf:

leonmallett
01-09-2007, 20:16
You never gave an opinion on the chaos rules before you'd used them, then? You didn't make any comments at all on the rumors?
Ya you did, man. Evidence is there, unless you go and baleet all your old posts. :eyebrows:

Hey, I don't need to punch myself in the nuts to know it'll hurt.
I don't need to play with the Chaos Codex to know it sucks.


"I don't need to play with the Chaos Codex to know it sucks"

I disagree, for reasons such as army balance, internal and external consistency, and less glaringly obvious choices, as well as improvements to various units such as Defilers and Thousand Sons.

Any reason why the codex 'sucks', or is it easier just to state this to be the case...

Vineas
01-09-2007, 20:21
Wow, I mean the way *SOME* Chaos players are carrying on you'd think they got it worst than ANY other army in the damn hobby. I never saw this much bitching and carrying on when the Eldar lost all their craftworld specific rules. I'm sure many of them shared the same view of the new Eldar, probably still do, in that they think it sucks, is boring, bland, whatever but I didn't see 12 threads and 1000's of posts on it.

Sarevok
01-09-2007, 20:31
"I don't need to play with the Chaos Codex to know it sucks"

I disagree, for reasons such as army balance, internal and external consistency, and less glaringly obvious choices, as well as improvements to various units such as Defilers and Thousand Sons.

Any reason why the codex 'sucks', or is it easier just to state this to be the case...

Well lack of character, removal of options and making thing blander...a big gripe with the new Codex. Don't need to playtest things to see that.

Not saying playtesting is irrelevent, but for plenty of things you don't need to playtest it. Mathhammer is good enough to tell me Possessed are not a good choice compared to others in the book.
Lash of Submission is an obvious game-breaker too.

Anyway I've played the 3rd edition dex, so I know Dreads and Daemons aren't worth it....

lord_blackfang
01-09-2007, 20:43
You never gave an opinion on the chaos rules before you'd used them, then? You didn't make any comments at all on the rumors?
Ya you did, man. Evidence is there, unless you go and baleet all your old posts. :eyebrows:


Since you know so much about my posting habits, can you please show us all where I said that you're not allowed to have an opinion before playing? Or is this one of those famous straw man arguments I've heard so much about? :eyebrows:

Sovereign
01-09-2007, 20:44
I never saw this much bitching and carrying on when the Eldar lost all their craftworld specific rules.
I was disappointed not to see Scorpions as Troops, as they're a very simple, basic unit. And I was a little disappointed with the Heavy weapon nerfs.

But I don't think Eldar were "destroyed", and I never felt the need to go crying to the forums like a little girl...

Now if a player of Eldar Space panzies can man up, why can't a player of a Chaos Warband? It's shameful, really.

lord_blackfang
01-09-2007, 20:49
In all honesty, there was plenty of Eldar whining and DA whining around Codex release. Chaos players aren't being any worse, IMHO (It's just me being more fed up with it). And judging from the Ork rumour threads, there'll be plenty of Ork whining come December.

Sovereign
01-09-2007, 20:53
Of 120 players over three heats making up the top 40, Chaos Space Marines make up 30%, Space Marines 21.67%, Tau 14.17%, Eldar 12.5%, Tyranids 5%, Necrons 5%, Dark Eldar 5%, Imperial Guard 3.33%, Daemonhunters 2.5%, Orks 0.83%, Witch Hunters 0%.
So if the current Chaos list isn't actually glaringly overpowered and in need of serious nerfing, are we to presume that they should have had a fair full 50% of the top spots? :rolleyes:

Grimtuff
01-09-2007, 20:57
In all honesty, there was plenty of Eldar whining and DA whining around Codex release. Chaos players aren't being any worse, IMHO (It's just me being more fed up with it). And judging from the Ork rumour threads, there'll be plenty of Ork whining come December.

You and me both Blackie.....

I too have used the new CSM codex, and it's perfectly fine gameplay wise.

The only ones I see going "till the death" at my gaming store (where we're allowed to use the new book if we so wish) are the IW, EC and various other types of powergamer lists that they treasured from the old codex so much. :rolleyes:

BDJV
01-09-2007, 22:10
Gameplay wise the new codex is fine. I do mourn the loss of customization and some of the legion lists.

The last codex was very abused by gamers, and as a result GW has hammered it with the Nerf bat.

The problem is all they really did was take the Legions and customization out. The power level of the new codex is still pretty damn high.

I have grown to like the new codex it reminds me of the 2nd edition codex with out the option for Cult Terminators. If they had done the option of Cult terminators the Cult players would have been hit less hard.

Joewrightgm
01-09-2007, 23:12
I find it interesting that there are over 60% 'good' responses, but the minority 'bad' (20%) are probably the most vocal on this and other threads, assuming of course that this poll represents a fair cross-section of the board.

Food for thought only. Peace.

malisteen
01-09-2007, 23:20
Wow, I mean the way *SOME* Chaos players are carrying on you'd think they got it worst than ANY other army in the damn hobby. I never saw this much bitching and carrying on when the Eldar lost all their craftworld specific rules.

The eldar codex is good, skimmer problems aside. Every unit has a job to do, and does that job reasonably well. No unit sucks outright, no unit is self contradictory.

I don't mind that the chaos codex followed the eldar codex pattern of ditching variant lists and smoothing out options. I do mind that the chaos codex didn't follow the eldar codex pattern of balancing options so all of them are worthwhile, useful, and interesting.

There are no foul ups like fire frenzy, spawn, or (shudder) possessed in the eldar codex. And while the lash can be likened unto invincible eldar skimmers, the problems with it are far more obvious, and it's far less forgivable that it saw print in its current form.


Again - I don't dislike the 4th ed chaos codex because it follows in the footsteps of the 4th ed eldar codex by cutting variant lists and streamlining options. Rather I dislike the new chaos codex because it doesn't follow the eldar codex's example of good design.



I find it interesting that there are over 60% 'good' responses, but the minority 'bad' (20%) are probably the most vocal on this and other threads, assuming of course that this poll represents a fair cross-section of the board.

Given the anti-whining whining that's been going on, I'm not surprised at all. Plenty of people are unfairly bashing the new book, but just as many are unfairly praising it, either because they falsely think that it will put an end to chaos cheese, or because they like anything new, or just to spite all the people who don't like what they're hearing.

Sovereign
01-09-2007, 23:54
There are no foul ups like fire frenzy, spawn, or (shudder) possessed in the eldar codex.
Let's see... The Eldar Wraithlord was nerfed with Ghost Sight, and Guardians are 10+ with mandatory nerfed Heavy Weapon.

But the Eldar are highly-structured, with their Path Fluff, so it wouldn't do to have d6 tables anyhow.

scarvet
02-09-2007, 00:00
Come on, leave the spwan. It may not worth what it cost, but you just can't have a spwan that's no random.

And yes, Eldar is good enough---almost too good, so don't bring it up.

And for the first combat efficient list, I any one can work it out in a few hour...

TheEndIsHere
02-09-2007, 00:03
I like it but i find it difficult to make an army, I usually get codices and say OMG I must try an army of this this and this... but in this codex, none of that happens...

Also WTF is a codez? look at the title of the thread

PS i ahve the new codex

D-End

warwizard_99
02-09-2007, 00:21
I had to vote 'bad'. Overall the codex isn't bad, it is just one piece that ruins the entire book for me. Sure we lost god specific demons, greater demons, and there were some tweaks. The thing that kills me is this. Every single power gamer out there is going to play Tzeench now. Iron Halo level Invul save, AP3 bolters.... I mean come on, what in the world was the design team thinking on that one?!?!?!?

I've played Chaos for more than 10 years and I am disappointed in many aspects of this codex - yeah parts of it are cool, but I think GW screwed the pooch on this one.

crandall87
02-09-2007, 00:28
I think it is great. Yes it has been mean to themed armies by they were basically one trick ponies. Possessed are rubbish and i'd rather just have a defiler than a dread (which I will do). I cannot wait to start my new chaos army.

I am annoyed about only having generic daemons but they are still good which is a bonus. I would have loved cultists in the book so I'm annoyed there. I also think it would have been quite easy to add things like sonic weapons to more squads so people still had a playable EC force. I am sure some CA rules will appear.

warchild9
02-09-2007, 02:46
I actually got to look at it last sunday and I was impressed can't wait for it

Vineas
02-09-2007, 07:15
I don't see K-sons being overpowered at all. Max effective range is 24", they are 300 pts for 10 with sorc having Doombolt and they are S&P meaning an average move of 4" a turn unless you up their cost further by adding a 35pt rhino.

Mech armies are going to have a field day against a Chaos army that takes NOTHING but K-sons for Troop choices and assault armies will also have loads of fun. I think it'll be easier to win with K-sons than before but it's not going to be a push over in the least.

leonmallett
02-09-2007, 09:01
So if the current Chaos list isn't actually glaringly overpowered and in need of serious nerfing, are we to presume that they should have had a fair full 50% of the top spots? :rolleyes:

Did you read my post? It was a reply to someone who stated that he believed that CSM were not overly effective or unbalanced in the previous iteration, and therefore not highly represented in tournaments. I showed recent evidence that they were consistently representative in the top 40 over three, heats and had almost half as many in the top as the next highest placing army.

Try reading my post, and the post to which I responded, before adding the eyerolling and inferring your own meaning and washing it away with a hint of sarcasm.

Sovereign
02-09-2007, 09:50
Did you read my post?

Try reading my post, and the post to which I responded, before adding the eyerolling and inferring your own meaning and washing it away with a hint of sarcasm.
Did you read mine?

If so, you wouldn't have to respond like this.

leonmallett
02-09-2007, 10:18
Did you read mine?

If so, you wouldn't have to respond like this.

You add the eye-roll which is indicative of sarcasm.

Your post can be inferred to mean that I was calling for the most recent iteration prior to the new Thorpe-penned one (the Haines book) to be seen as not overpowered, which I certainly think it was in terms of some of the lists it contained and lack of balance and consistency.

If that is not what you meant, then I apologise, but then sarcasm seems to have hidden the intent of your meaning if that is the case.

itcamefromthedeep
02-09-2007, 13:21
Where I am, the Chaos book is taking more flak for the names of the renegades then any of the rules.

The Cleaved?
Betrayers of Pain?
Killmongers!?!

Endless hours of empty time were killed by jokes related to the poetic nomenclature of the renegades.

Most people I have met are far more positive about the book then what I see in these threads. I have yet to see anyone in person show outright disappointment at what they saw. The common comments are that it is easier to read and easier to make an army. The rest of what I hear is just dicussion about how the new options will be used, and not whether they are better. The Dreadnought, however, has been mentioned as a pretty bad deal (particularly with the common plasma cannon). The Spawn got mentioned, but mostly in a positive light fot their speed.

I like it, but only if it is a promisary note of future codexes. If that's it for the Legions, I'm a little disappointed. It has been argued that the Legions have always been largely basic infantry forces (Death Guard in particular). I have been told that during the Heresy many of the veterans went the way of the Chaplains for remaining loyal. Even if that is so, it is no excuse for not including appropriate Lords and Sorcerers. I consider the failure to at least include appropriate characters for the Legions is just that, a failure.

There have been complainsts about the layout, with rules and army list in separate areas. The countergument wa that once you knew the rules, it takes less flipping between pages to make a list.

Because of the improvements to the layout and streamlining of the army list I say that the book is better then the previous one, but not quite of the standard we should expect.

iseeleadpeople
02-09-2007, 14:37
well i think its good, nothing stunning mind you, ive had to tweak my army a bit and move a few things around and buy a few more ( and a few more and a few more goddamn apoc!)

in the end of it ithink its left the over powerd kill legions such as iron warriors and others

as a black legion player my self ( and have been since slave in darkness, yes i am an old git!) i find the army lists suit me

but hey ho, time to get on with my raptor marines

Grimtuff
02-09-2007, 17:03
The thing that kills me is this. Every single power gamer out there is going to play Tzeench now. Iron Halo level Invul save, AP3 bolters.... I mean come on, what in the world was the design team thinking on that one?!?!?!?


Fire a non AP3 weapon at a TS and he goes down just as easily as any other SM, the 4+ inv. will mean diddly squat most of the time.

firestorm40k
02-09-2007, 17:36
I've this week got the new Codex, and here are my thoughts:

BACKGROUND SECTION: HH stuff present and correct, expanded a little to go with what we've read from the HH series of Novels. But I love the stuff about rogue Marines and Chapters that have turned to Chaos - and some of the new colour schemes are really neat! :)

MODELLING/PAINTING: Well, aside from examples of some of the cool new Rogue Marine armies, I was very disappointed. With Chaos, you come to expect to see conversions made with parts raided from every Citadel miniature out there, but it was very standard, i.e. everything with what it comes packed with on the sprue. No cool Lord conversions, no gribbly Spawn or Possessed conversions, no Possessed Vehicles. A disappointment :(

ARMY LIST: Now, I've kept out of the furore until having seen the Codex, and I must admit I am disappointed. There is too much standardisation - rather than keep with the '(almost) infinitely mutable lists' of the previous version, correcting the loop-holes and errors that brought it down, the developers have gone too far the other way. I can understand why so many players are angry. And what puzzles me most, is that they've got rid of God-specific Daemons.

Why, for the love of crumb-cake? :eyebrows:

It just doesn't feel like Chaos now. I think it's pretty obvious the GW dev team have done this to ensure people fork out again to buy Codex: Daemons

Anyway, I'll put together an army using this list, a mix of Undivided and Khorne marked Marines, but I just think this codex is a missed opportunity. :(



So, my overall impression is 'must try harder, GW'. I can appreciate what Gav & Alessio have tried to do, but it's not quite worked. I would place this Codex as the 3rd best Chaos Codex, after 2nd Edition (L&tD + Daemon World Lists ftw!), and the previous Codex which felt to have limitless possibilities.