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bloodforminis
31-08-2007, 16:17
Has anybody read in any instances when a Space Marine has actually used the acidic saliva that they are supposed to possess? I've read quite a few stories on Marines and it seems that this function is generally forgotten by most writers. Supposedly they can (slowly) chew their way through bars and restraints and that the spit while not powerfully corrosive could temporarily blind an opponent. Yet it seems this never comes up in the fiction. Anybody know anything differently?

inq.serge
31-08-2007, 16:21
In Inq, they may spit acid, and since Marines are so strong, they can spit of your head (Unless I'm wrong about your physique and you are well trained and has a neck as a wrestler, then only your face will be crushed on impact and somewhat corroded away).

http://www.games-workshop.es/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/astartes.html

Iceheart2112
31-08-2007, 16:51
In Brothers of the Snake, it is mentioned and used. He gets bitten by a poisonous snake, the poison is captured by his immune system (or nearest equivalent), and moved to sacs in his mouth. Past that, I have no idea.

Gen.Steiner
31-08-2007, 18:27
In one of the Bloodquest comics, Sergeant Cloten (he of the Black Rage fame) uses it to escape from a cell. He then kills an entire Chaos cult with his bare hands... and teeth. ;)

Brother Enok
31-08-2007, 22:40
Random possible fact. Imperial fists and thier succesors (sp) don't have the acidic saliva ability.
Anyone else heard this?

Melchiah
31-08-2007, 22:45
Aye, IF and they successor dont have the acid glands they also cant be put in spenesdened(SP?) animation. I thought the acid worked in addiction with their teeth to actually crew through things. And that was why they couldnt spit "venom/acid." It was mearly an Aid.

DantesInferno
31-08-2007, 23:15
“Do we bemoan such losses? No! We are the Fists! We do not need to hibernate or spit venom. We crush our enemies.”
-Teachings of Rhetoricus

Dervos
31-08-2007, 23:58
I dont know about their spit... but it probably is acidic with all those augmentations and chemicals in their enhanced bodies.

I know that in the Third Ciaphas Cain book "The Traitor's Hand" Cain comes across a dead CSM and extrapolates on how marine blood is acidic( not even to mention how bad CSM blood might be)and warns the troops with him not to touch the blood.

Sikkukkut
01-09-2007, 04:11
Aye, IF and they successor dont have the acid glands they also cant be put in spenesdened(SP?) animation.

Are you sure? In the background I have the Sus-An membrane and the Betcher's Gland are two separate organs. The Imperial Fists' geneseed has lost the ability to cultivate both of them, but that seemed to me to be coincidence rather than because the organs were interlinked.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 05:49
Completely incidentally, how realistic/plausible is that whole corrosive saliva thing? Sure, it featured in Alien (etc.) but that's hardly science fact... ;)

Just thinking about that the other day...

Kage

Arcanus
01-09-2007, 07:29
Completely incidentally, how realistic/plausible is that whole corrosive saliva thing? Sure, it featured in Alien (etc.) but that's hardly science fact... ;)

Just thinking about that the other day...

Kage

It's possible but it'd probably cause your teeth to disintegrate. And without a special coating it would probably irratate you gums, tongue, and all the exposed flesh in your mouth.

lunacite
01-09-2007, 09:29
It would most likely exist as two binary chemicals that are acidic when mixed.

inq.serge
01-09-2007, 09:30
Their gums and teeth are immune to their saliva.

(Human saliva is also somewhat acidic, but not as acidic as a marines)

CELS
01-09-2007, 12:04
It would most likely exist as two binary chemicals that are acidic when mixed.
That's actually a damned good idea.

Born Again
01-09-2007, 12:53
Poisonous snakes and spiders can't poison themselves with their own venom, right? So wouldn't a marine be immune to his own acidic saliva? Not sure on the science of it, but makes sense.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 14:43
Darn, was actually thinking that someone had some science behind the assertions (beyond the binary material idea). The fluoroapatite comment came close, but not sufficiently for my liking... Ah well.

Kage

Tastyfish
01-09-2007, 17:52
Poisonous snakes and spiders can't poison themselves with their own venom, right? So wouldn't a marine be immune to his own acidic saliva? Not sure on the science of it, but makes sense.

I think its more a case of containment rather than immunity, poisons are very specific things and if you keep them away from the tissues they effect then there isn't really any risk. That said, some snakes are immune to poison (Kingsnakes are immune to rattler poison) but whether this is due to some specific anti-poison enzyme or a slightly differently designed target for the poison I don't know.

As for marines, pretty sure its mentioned as something to be used in dire circumstances (captured etc) rather than as part of their normal repertoire of fighting skills so its probably very damaging to the tissues of the mouth. The heat from the reaction between an acid capable of disolving metal and the bars is going to be enough to cause serious burns to the mount if all else fails.

Sojourner
01-09-2007, 18:16
Human stomach acid is around pH 2; the stomach lining protects itself by continually secreting mucus. However, pH 2 isn't sufficient to dissolve metals at any perceivable rate - after all, you can vomit and nothing much happens. It'd probably sting if it hit your eyes, though.

The most powerful readily available acid is fluoroantimonic. This is used to etch glass. It isn't unfeasible for a specially engineered biological organism to be able to secrete it - even though antimony is highly toxic to humans so metabolising it in the first place would be...challenging.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 19:06
Ah, once again my "disbelieve" senses are tingling... ;) (The zygote, not Sojourner's comments.)

Kage

Easy E
01-09-2007, 19:16
Kage come on, we all know it's the Handwavium gland that the Emperor installed in all marines. It is so super secret that they can't even list it on the list of special-nifty marine organs.

I'm disappointed in you Kage. You know better. ;)

Arcanus
01-09-2007, 19:51
Poisonous snakes and spiders can't poison themselves with their own venom, right? So wouldn't a marine be immune to his own acidic saliva? Not sure on the science of it, but makes sense.

Not all snakes are immune to their posion. And they were born with the venom. The Space Marines didn't acidic saliva in their body until they joined the Adeptus Astartes. I don't remember reading that they were given immunity to the saliva or special coatings on the exposed flesh in their mouth so the acid doesn't irritate it.

Melchiah
01-09-2007, 20:02
Not all snakes are immne to their posion. And they were born with the venom. The Space Marines didn't acidic saliva in their body until they joined the Adeptus Astartes. I don't remember reading that they were given immunity to the saliva or special coatings on the exposed flesh in their mouth so the acid doesn't irritate it.Scorpions will sting eah other in fights till the venom takes them over. Just becase something has a poison doesnt mean it cant affeck them.

Orthodox
01-09-2007, 20:26
Two of these identical glands are implanted, either into the lower lip, alongside the salivary glands or into the hard palette. Betcher's gland works in a similar way to the poison gland of venomous reptiles by synthesising and storing deadly poison.
It's not their saliva after all. Hooray

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 22:19
No, I'm afraid it is their "saliva," at least insofar as the Marines are describing as "chewing their way" through iron bars in several hours. If it was just about a corrosive contact poison then it wouldn't be too much of a problem, but once again it's GW imagery that is causing the glitch. ;)

Kage

Arcanus
01-09-2007, 22:28
Well maybe their saliva s normal until they activate the gland so their saliva becomes a corrosive acid.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 22:33
Which gets into the biphase or "dual type" component, above, which makes more sense. Of course, the Marine is in no way going to be 'chewing themselves' out of an iron cage. That increasingly seems (if you were not already surprised) that GW just writes their material to sound cool and to make the Marines sound, as Gav Thorpe has said, "'ard."

Kage

Hive Mind 33
01-09-2007, 22:38
Random possible fact. Imperial fists and thier succesors (sp) don't have the acidic saliva ability.
Anyone else heard this?

save the soul drinkers some how got it back.

Kage2020
01-09-2007, 22:41
LOL. And methinks that says a lot... ;)

Kage

Devil-Tears
01-09-2007, 22:44
That increasingly seems (if you were not already surprised) that GW just writes their material to sound cool and to make the Marines sound, as Gav Thorpe has said, "'ard."

Kage

Ah, so you've realised that:D

Realistically?
Nah, this would never be doable in real life.

Fluffwise?
Probably, since they are space marines after all, and their bodies have a million ways of defending itself. Most likely, a space marine's skin would probably be immune to poison, just like stomach lining to stomach acid. It would, of course, be a billion times tougher, but thats what SM are to humans anyway.

CELS
01-09-2007, 23:05
Then again, if you have a problem with the Imperium creating such a gland, then you might run into difficulties when you assess the realism of the Tyranids. They've pretty much got acidic poison coming out of all orifices. And they have a lot of orifices.

Orthodox
01-09-2007, 23:17
No, I'm afraid it is their "saliva,"
Says who? Does the article say saliva [due diligence]?

Why would an engineered organ waste all those calories making everyday saliva into acid. Be a follower.

Arcanus
02-09-2007, 00:31
Says who? Does the article say saliva [due diligence]?

Why would an engineered organ waste all those calories making everyday saliva into acid. Be a follower.

Well I think it's in the saliva too but, I think it can be turned on or off.

ArtificerArmour
02-09-2007, 15:37
In Brothers of the Snake, it is mentioned and used. He gets bitten by a poisonous snake, the poison is captured by his immune system (or nearest equivalent), and moved to sacs in his mouth. Past that, I have no idea.

You mean a snake actually pierced the skin of a mighty astartes!?!?!

It was probably some over escalated snake with chainsaws for teeth, the size of three tanks and hideously deformed and possessed by a daemon.

Kage2020
02-09-2007, 21:28
Says who? Does the article say saliva [due diligence]?
Yep, it mentions saliva. Just not in the way that is being implied, i.e. turning the saliva corrosive. However, if you're chewing your way out of something saliva is more than likely going to be involved. Spitting the darned stuff is fine, but chewing? Naaah...

Kage