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steeler556
01-09-2007, 05:02
Ok folks, I have a rules question about the O&G Waaagh ability of the General. I am running a Doubles tournie on Sept. 22nd and one of the teams there consists of a O&G player and a Chaos Dwarf player. Both armies have the ability to have Black Orcs in them. The doubles format rules are based on the UK doubles format, so if the O&G player on the team is the General and declares the Waaagh, will the Black Orcs belonging to the Chaos Dwarf player charge forward as well?

Actually, that brings up another question. Do the CD Black Orcs suffer animosity as per the CD rules, or as per the new O&G rules??

Shimmergloom
01-09-2007, 06:00
Keep in mind that this will only come about if you allow 2 general's in your doubles tourney or if you allow only one and the CD player only uses sorcerers or the bull centaur characters.

Otherwise if a single CD hero or lord is used, then their LD10 is going to force them to be the general and then the greenskin player won't have a general and will then not be able to declare Waaagh!

If somehow neither of those 2 apply, then when the greenskin general declares Waaagh! all units which test for animosity are said to be able to add to their rolls for getting the 6.

Black orc units get an auto-6. So if the CD player has black orcs, I would say they would get the 6.

Hobgoblins have no rule for ranks, so would get 0 added to their roll for ranks. They can only get bonuses if a big boss or warboss(which doesn't exist for them and it would be silly for the greenskin player to put his lord in a unit of hobgobs) is in their unit.

Basically hobgobs will only suffer the downsides to squabbling during a waaagh!

Urgat
01-09-2007, 08:55
Would be logical to play BO by the new O&G rules, but...
in the FAQ, mercenary ogres do not gain bull charge, neither do chaos ogres. Mercenary marauders do not get the 25*25 base like the chaos ones did. And there's probably other examples too, so my take on it is:
no, you use the rules in the CD army book (but BO don't suffer animosity). So they don't get to use the waaagh! anyway.
But if you agree otherwise, well, as Shimmergloom said, the waaagh is declared by the general, so if the CD orcs have their own general, they won't react to the waaagh! from the CD army. If the general for both armies is a CD, you don't get the waaagh for neither armies (a dwarf calling a waaaagh? hargh! heresy!).

T10
01-09-2007, 10:46
Agreed. The least complicated approach is to apply the Waagh! rules to Orcs & Goblin army units only.

For Chaos Dwarfs you should stick to the rules as presented in the Ravening Hordes booklet. Assume the Orc & Goblin units are different due to years of captivity/integration into Chaos Dwarf society.

-T10

JonnyTHM
01-09-2007, 11:21
Why is it that I seem to recall hearing that you're always supposed to use the new O&G book for the Chaos dwarf list?

I think part of it is that unless you actually own the ravening hordes book, you have no access to the O&G rules from it, and hence couldn't even take orcs.

Also, I'd say (going back to the original question) that as the Chaos dwarfs actually do have their own rules for animosity (instead of just referencing the O&G one) that their greenskins wouldn't be affected by the waaagh call.

Tutore
01-09-2007, 12:12
I read somewhere in a recent FAQ that you should use the new animosity rules for greenskins in chaos dwarves. I failed to find the actual text, tough.

Festus
01-09-2007, 13:02
Hi

As JonnyTHM pointed out, you will have to play the CDs using the new Army Books for O&G, as the old rules from RH are not accessible anymore.

But it tend to agree to the *seperate armies* approach, nonetheless.

Festus

Urgat
01-09-2007, 18:21
Well, my opinion on the separate army thing is based on the Waaagh rule. It is the general that calls the waaagh, and it works only with greenskins, so obviously black orcs (or any greenskins) in a chaos dwarf army cannot benefit from it anyway, since there's no greenskin general available in the CD rulebook.

Avian
03-09-2007, 10:15
Essentially, calling a Waaagh! affects the models in your army only, not greenskins in other people's armies.

(Or you could end up with team battles calling Waaagh! several turns in a row. Imagine the fun of six O&G armies in a mega battle calling the Waaagh! every turn!)

Tutore
03-09-2007, 12:25
Essentially, calling a Waaagh! affects the models in your army only, not greenskins in other people's armies.

(Or you could end up with team battles calling Waaagh! several turns in a row. Imagine the fun of six O&G armies in a mega battle calling the Waaagh! every turn!)

It would be definitely a BIG WAAGGGHHHH! ...but you're right, I've also always played team battles with separate generals.

Urgat
03-09-2007, 16:58
Essentially, calling a Waaagh! affects the models in your army only, not greenskins in other people's armies.

(Or you could end up with team battles calling Waaagh! several turns in a row. Imagine the fun of six O&G armies in a mega battle calling the Waaagh! every turn!)

Yeah, I can imagine that: the 6 armies wiped out by tons of D5 hits w/o saves, without anybody even reaching combat :p

Shimmergloom
03-09-2007, 20:47
Well the greenskin book says all units must test during the waaagh! The writer doesn't even write all units in your army only. So while it's understandable that GW wouldn't write the book with team games in mind, it would have been nice for them to have said so.

Like I said, if you decide to let them do it and the greenskin general calls a waaagh! it's basically only going to hurt the CD army, they won't get much benefit beyond the one black orc unit they might have.

I can't imagine a CD player taking special 3pt goblins when they can take 2pt hobgoblins. Or wasting a special on orcs over black orcs, rockets and bull centaurs.

So you're left with hobgoblins and black orcs. Black orcs get the auto-6 and there's no rule for hobgoblins to add ranks, so they have no more chance of getting a 6 than they would otherwise(you might have an argument as to whether a hoboglin hero counts as a big boss, but I would say if the CD is taking hobgoblin heroes instead of his great CD heroes and casters, then that's his loss already). But a 1, will make them take D6 wounds.

These two players may argue for getting a waaagh! to count for them both, but it might just be the worse argument they would ever want to win.


Yeah, I can imagine that: the 6 armies wiped out by tons of D5 hits w/o saves, without anybody even reaching combat

It's actually D6 wounds. Not even hits. It's only hits if you have the black orc that stops them from squabbling. Then they take D6 S5 hits, instead of D6 wounds.

So in this thread's situation, you could see yourself sitting back and laughing as hobgoblin wolf and archer units went up in smoke, or a goblin wolf rider is wiped out and panics the nearby hobgoblin units instead.

Treant
03-09-2007, 23:26
It's actually D6 wounds. Not even hits. It's only hits if you have the black orc that stops them from squabbling. Then they take D6 S5 hits, instead of D6 wounds.


I think it is actually both d6 wounds AND d6 str 5 hits as the rule states the d6 wounds is "in addition" to the squabble.

as far as the rules for team tourney goes I participated in a "battle of two heroes" tourney this spring where one team member had the general while the other had the BSB. I was the OnG player and had the BSB. According to the way the rule is written, the player calls the Waaagh! as long as the general is on the table and not fleeing.

It was interpreted that I could Waaagh! even though my partner was the general and not a greenskin. I believe this is the right interpretation of the rule as it most closely follows the exact wording BUT if the army is composed of multiple greenskin armies I'm not able to give a clean answer as it could easily be interpreted as each player could call it separately and could effect the entire army which is way outside the spirit of the rule.

I would allow a greenskin to Waaagh! as long as the model that is considered the general of that player's army (covering separate generals or shared ones) is on the table and not fleeing, but that Waaagh! would only effect the calling players units. As the Chaos dwarfs don't have the special rule for Waaagh!, they would not have the ability.

Masque
04-09-2007, 02:10
Hobgoblins have no rule for ranks, so would get 0 added to their roll for ranks.

Assuming the Waaagh! affected the Hobgoblins there is no reason they would not add their rank bonus to their roll. The rule is that units add their rank bonus but Goblins only add a maximum of +1.

Shimmergloom
04-09-2007, 04:21
The black orc rule says they IMMEDIATELY deal D6 S5 hits to a unit that fails an animosity test. After that is resolved the unit counts as having rolled a 2-5 result on the chart.

The squabbling during a WAAAGH! rule says they take d6 wounds. Now since the black orc keeps them from squabbling, they cannot take D6 wounds, since only units who are squabbling take the D6 wounds.

A unit cannot both squabble and count as rolling a 2-5 which means they are not squabbling.

As for hobgoblins, I suppose you could try to read into it that they would get up to +3, but there is no rule for them to. There's no rule for them not to, but since they don't exist in the greenskin book, I don't think you can assume to win the argument that they get a rule that doesn't exist for them in another book.

Luckily gnoblars have their own animosity chart that they call bicker, so a doubles tourney wouldn't have to worry about them wanting to waaagh! too.

Urgat
04-09-2007, 11:14
It's actually D6 wounds. Not even hits. It's only hits if you have the black orc that stops them from squabbling. Then they take D6 S5 hits, instead of D6 wounds.

Yeah I know, mixed up the terms. I got entire cavalry units spontaneously self destroy following waaagh calls, and after a few hundred points lost that way, I've decided that rule was among the most stupidly thought ones they've ever come up with. Notice that now failing a test on a waaagh! call results in being hit by something more powerful than a fanatic.