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Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-09-2007, 00:35
I have managed to snag three of my buddies and my brother into playing Warhammer with me. They're all just starting out, and so have few models to work with. We've been playing a lot of warband games, around 200-500 points. My orcs and goblins have been kicking a lot of butt, my buddy's dwarfs are also doing failry well, and the Bretonnian guy has managed a couple of wins because it's easy to point and charge. However, our resident mortal Chaos guy has been taking a severe beating and lost every single game he has played. I'm guessing it's more a matter of what he plays with rather than how he plays, because everyone's pretty much at a basic strategy level.

He only has a box of Marauders and a box of Warriors. The last list we set up for him had three units of 5 Marauders (no other equipment), one unit of 4 Warriors with 2 hand weapons and another the same but also with a champion. My 7 mighty orc arrer boyz had the game of their life and shot to death both units of Warriors, pincushioning the one with the champion and then, after a 6 on the Animosity roll, running after, charging, and mashing the other group to death after one bout of peppering...in which they lost a man and ran away, made their save and headed back towards their doom.

I was thinking he should throw some Marauder horsemen in to help flank some units, or ever redirect some fire. And perhaps some warhounds to do the same. He has NO missile weapons, which means he normally trudges forward and gets shot to death on the way there. I've played Bretonnians and Orcs and Goblins, and I'm not sure how to help him get some wins under his belt and a smile back on his face. I'm afraid if this keeps up he might get frustrated and give up. Please help!

Imperial Dragon
03-09-2007, 00:48
maybe you should lead him onto another army, cause of what ive heard and seen its sometimes a hard thing to win with chaos unless you got a good amount of spawn and/or terror causing units in your army, if he still wants to have something like chaos (likes CC) maybe he should do lizardman or if he want the "evil" maybe even Dark elves i have seen them do pretty well and the models do look really cool.

*edit are you guys just playing with the models you have or playing border patrol?

empireguard
03-09-2007, 01:48
I think some Cav is the way to go. So Choas Knights or Marauder Horsemen would be they way to go next. If he's worryied about the cost you could buy the new Empire Pistoliers or the Empire Knights/Bret Knights plastic box set and just convert them.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-09-2007, 02:18
I'm definitely not going to convince him to try another army. I know that every army can be a winning army, and he really loves Chaos/Khorne. I thought that Chaos was the best of the best, where are all of the fanatics out there when you need them?

Lord Dan
03-09-2007, 02:26
If it's the army he's chosen, then I believe you should try harder at helping him make it work than convincing him to buy something totally different.

Chaos are tough looking on paper, but are suprisingly fragile. When you consider a marauder has a comparable statline to an Empire swordsman, yet costs 3 points more (with the same armor upgrades) and has a larger base, you start to understand that the key to winning with Chaos has much more to do with unit interaction than it does brute force.

Considering that, I think he will start to have more luck when he gets into larger point games. For now simply have him keep trying different combinations, of units and items, and make sure he stays away from the tempting uber-expensive units.

Imperial Dragon
03-09-2007, 02:28
im guessing he has khorne guys in his army?

i dont think he should use these until a bigger battle that way he can get more troops onto the field.

i rekon something like this

warriors
marderurs (not sure on spelling) [maybe even 2 units]
hounds and maybe some marderurs horesman
use the hounds to protect his warriors from range fire

Chaplain Mortez
03-09-2007, 02:40
The other thing about chaos is that it is much more powerful at higher point games. 250-500 points is about what chaos players spend on a single lord. My advice? Definitely tell him to stick with it. Once he gets an army going, things should start looking up. He may want to try using all the chaos warriors in a single unit, perhaps upgraded to chosen? That way, he has a rock-hard unit that can hold for a turn and set up a flank charge with his Mauraders.

Calvary would also improve his performance. 5 chaos knights is enough to break just about anything in the game on the charge.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-09-2007, 03:01
Thanks for all the advice so far, I'm definitely not (repeat: NOT) trying to talk him out of Chaos. As a matter of fact, I just built him a Chaos giant, complete with some new shoulderguards, a Bloodthirster's axe, and bigger horns because he's Khorney like that (Ba dum bum!). But we're going to have to be playing a lot of Warbands/Skirmish stuff until everyone builds up their army. Two of them have wives, one's a poor college student, and the other has bills to pay, so they can't go and spend money all willy-nilly like I can. Thank you, Marine Corps College Fund and Montgomery GI Bill!

So please try to think about 200-500 point level tactics and/or army composition. I just want him to be able to win once and a while so he won't get discouraged and never reach those 2,000 point games where his kitted-out Khorne Champion kills us all. Thanks again!

Lord Dan
03-09-2007, 03:32
I don't think he should be using Khorne in such small points. Khorne's obvious flaw is their lack of options psychologically (can't flee, get baited), and when you're only juggling around 2 or 3 units you can't afford to have one lured out of the battle. I would reccomend he stick with Undivided until he feels confident that he can tactically deal with Khorne's drawbacks.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-09-2007, 03:34
None of the units have any marks or anything, he just likes Khorne. I'm sure when they get painted they'll be all red and bloody. There's no room for any fancy marks or anything at such low points.

Lord Dan
03-09-2007, 03:47
Then all the better.

In such small games, players don't need to worry about having units capable of countering heavy knights and big monsters, as neither player can afford them. Right now have him stick to small units that can outmanouver, not necessarily hit hard. Wolves and Marauder horsemen are perfect for this, and are relatively cheap point-wise. If he does decide to take knights, I wouldn't advise he give them too many upgrades. Personally I would take a chariot as a "hard hitter", with wolves and horsemen to help bait and flank.

Hope things go better for him.

Chaplain Mortez
03-09-2007, 04:40
Personally I don't play chaos, but I do know what a large unit of calvary in a low-point game can do.

What I'm suggesting is a fully tricked-out unit of chosen knights. Maybe around six? I played a game with 2 units of 5 silverhelms in 500 points with a commander. It worked really well because of the fact that I could use both units to charge one unit at a time, meanwhile he was really spread out.

For the most part, I agree with Lord Dan, but that's just it--you can make them worry about heavy knights and big monsters. Do that, and they will have a hard time fighting off the really nasty unit.

...but then again, I don't play chaos, so I don't know how credible this advice is. It might be worth a try. If anything, I've never seen a chaos player without knights, so it's worth the investment (money wise).

Neknoh
03-09-2007, 05:35
Ok, at five hundred points, despite the extreme awesomeness of the models and their statline, there is no place for Warriors whatsoever... ever. Instead, what your friend should be focusing on is larger units of Marauders, one block of twentyfive with Lightarmour, Shields and Full Command would cost him two hundred points and leave him with a decently hitty block for use within the army.

You said that he was going to use a Chaos Giant, thus implying that he has the Beasts of Chaos book, a good idea for him might be that when his army starts reaching slightly higher points levels, he should add one Beastherd to the army (Box Configuration works well at the start) and also a unit of Bestigors or Khornegors (Bestigors with the mark of Khorne), he now have two of his three specials used for games at, say... 1k.

One thing that must not be forgotten is Chaos Hounds, they are invaluable to any Chaos general.

Now, throw in a unit of Knights, only four of them (yes, that is the minimum unit size, mean as hell) with a Musician, Banner and a Warbanner if you'd like allongside the Mark of Khorne. To top it off, a unit of five Marauder Horsemen with Flails and a Musician and the basics of the army should be all set, it's a wing-like formation that should be done here, Marauders to anchor the flank of the Bestigors, whom in turn moves up the centre (slightly faster than the Marauders, creating a very nice effect) supported by the Beastherd. Next to the Beasterd comes the Knights and the Horsemen, running down the other flank, leaving the Beastherd for distacting enemy units or supporting the Chaos Knights.


That would be my advice for building larger, personally, at lower points levels like 500, I strongly promote Border Patroll instead, a unit of fifteen Marauders with Greatweapons or Flails joined by an Exalted Champion with a Hallberd won't set you back more than perhaps two hundred and fifty points, leaving the other half of the points to be spent on a unit of four Knights of Chaos with the Mark of Khorne and a Musician, and then, you should then still have the points to add a Spawn of Chaos with the Bloodbeast of Khorne upgrade. And, if lucky, the points to get a unit of five Warhounds should still be there.

Such a list would do extraordinary well in a Border Patrol setting, your Warhounds can bait/angle a charge from a unit of Bretonnian Knights, and then, the Spawn charges straight into their flank, leaving them tied down the rest of the game with a creature who has D6+1 strength five attacks... or rather, tied down untill you slam your Marauders or Knights into their other flank, leaving them with no Rank bonus.

So, let's see if I can do all this without the book...


Exalted Champion of Chaos
- Hallberd... 104 points (Additional Handweapon, Greatweapon or Shield are also options which should not be looked down upon, although, when with Marauders and without the Helmet, I reckomend him not to take a Greatweapon).

14 Marauders of Chaos
- Greatweapons, Standard Bearer, Musician... 113 points

5 Warhounds of Chaos
- ... 30 points

4 Knights of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne... 177

Spawn of Chaos
- Bloodbeast of Khorne... 75

Points Total... 499 points

Models in army: 25
Dispell Dice: 3

Number of different attacks:

5 Strength 3 Attacks (Warhounds)
4 Strength 4 Attacks (Steeds of the Knights)
14+D6 strength 5 Attacks (front 4 Marauders, 4 Chaos Knights of khorne and Spawn)
4 Strength 6 attacks (Exalted Champion)

I'd advice him to try this list out, it doesn't sound all too different from what he's got allready (Warrior Champion can be used as Exalted for instance, and he should've probably gotten the Knights and the Warhounds later anyhow).

There you have it, suggested tactis when expanding the army as well as a suggested five hundred points Border Patroll list

Hope he starts doing better

Holy Crap! Manticores!
03-09-2007, 07:28
I reccomend he get a box of beastmen and use a small herd as a Special choice. They're cheap pts-wise, having outstanding mobility, and at that pts level, are capable of being the best unit in his army.

In a 500 pt game, a unit of 8 Gor/8Ungor will cost a mere 88 pts... still leaving him 412 for those Warriors and marauder units.

Lord Dan
03-09-2007, 17:35
[QUOTE=Chaplain Mortez;1874175]What I'm suggesting is a fully tricked-out unit of chosen knights. Maybe around six?QUOTE]

The problem with this theory is when the 80 points of handgunners take down 3 of your chosen knights by bringing their armor up to a 3+. The only way chosen knights work is in larger games where you can screen them or make other units "larger" and more immediate threats (such as a unit of marauder horsemen right in front of his handgunner line) so they won't get gunned down.

All it takes is for someone to bring out their helblaster.

DeathlessDraich
03-09-2007, 17:49
Sergeant Uriel Ventris, Listen to Neknoh and follow his advice. He's the resident Chaos and Chaos mortals expert.

Neknoh
03-09-2007, 21:52
uriel, do we have a statusreport on the progress of your friend?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-09-2007, 22:00
Ha! I'd love to, but as he's married and I'm going to school an hour or so away, I'm afraid it'll be a week or so until I can tell you guys if your suggestions have helped. But seriously, thank you for all your time and expertise. My brain is full of WAAAGH!! so I can't help him as well as you guys, plus my only experience with Chaos is beating them. Bwa ha! Hopefully I'll have a couple of wins from him to share shortly.

Neknoh
03-09-2007, 22:02
Good to know, any idea on what he's decided on?

srf4413
05-09-2007, 02:07
I would be the friend that the Sergeant is talking about. I have only played 3 games so far. I have yet to put any Marks (Khorne) on my units and so far I'm pretty much just getting a feel for the game. It is frustrating to see my warriors get picked apart by a bunch of uncoordinated green fleshbags that can hardly hold a sword or "choppa" let alone a bow. However I really have no experience with playing. I will eventually see what works and what doesn't work. Learning through experience. I have been racking my brain toying with some ideas, but nothing is really decided yet. Except for getting some fast movers of course. For the next couple of games, I believe that we're gonna be using 200 pts. Thanks for all the advice and we'll keep you updated on how things are going. Guess a lot of this is trial and error. What better way to learn than from seeing the battle unfold before you?

Chicago Slim
05-09-2007, 02:59
It sounds like you're taking a significant beating in the shooting phase, which makes some sense, since you have no shooting of your own to counter with, and no magic to counter with either (being Khornate, and all).

So, yeah, fast movers is going to be a big help, in terms of shutting down the enemy shooting phase-- but you're still going to have to pick your fights a bit: dwarves are dead hard bastards, and charging them with any kind of fast cavalry isn't likely to win you many games-- if you can pull off the 1/2 charge (which means no stand-and-shoot for him) or a charge from outside his line-of-sight, it's worth doing, though.

Charging orc archers isn't much better, but it's a bit more decent of a lineup, fast-cav versus arrer boyz. Still, if you're bringing fast cav, at this point, don't bother with wolves: they're far, far too easy to break with a couple of shots (being Leadership 5!).

Consider using your Warriors as sword-and-shield Chosen-- that makes them very expensive, but gives them a LOT of staying power (T4 and a 3+ save, 2+ in HTH) and a decent big of stopping power (Chosen of Khorne have 3 attacks each!) One unit of that, and another of Marauder Horse makes a pretty nice 200 point warband, all itself. It's a bit "all of your eggs in a basket", but your opponent needs to get pretty lucky to get those Warriors...

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
05-09-2007, 03:05
Unfortunately for my Chaotic buddy, we all are VERY lucky whenever we play against him. My arrer boyz had the game of their lives against him, as do my boyz in hand to hand. It sucks that Chaos doesn't have some sort of missile troops, like the axe throwers in the computer game. But I suppose it is fluffy, so here's to finding some good tactics!!

Chicago Slim
05-09-2007, 11:31
Well, that and waiting for your luck to end... Seriously, though, if he brings chosen foot with shields, your Arrer Boyz are rated to score one wound for every 18 shots, at close range (1 in 27 at long range). So, that's an important lesson of the game, right there: don't be intimidated by the fact that the other guy has gotten crazy lucky in the past.

The dwarf shooting can mess him up a bit more (handguns against chosen foot with shields are 1 in six to kill at short range, thanks to high strength and armor piercing!) That's where the fast cavalry comes in, though-- just remember not to let them stand-and-shoot against your charge...