PDA

View Full Version : Totally legal, but is it Sporting?



Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-09-2007, 13:09
Once upon a time, I was writing out an Empire army list for a forthcoming game of Warhammer, when I found myself a few points short of the arranged limit. To rectify this, I used the first thing which came to hand, namely a mounted Captain of the Empire.

As you might know, Empire characters are dirt cheap, so I wasn't too fussed about him carking it, and resolved to use him as pure annoyance, the classic one hit wonder for turning ropey combats into more convincing victories. So, with this is mind, I packed my case, jumped in the Mirth Mobile, and went to face my opponent.

However, when it came to setting up the board, the Muse was open me (Matthew Bellamy is heavier than he looks). I looked down upon my Pistoliers, and the idea struck me 'go on, bung your Captain in them!' Now, I often wrestle with my conscious on a number of things, normally because it's ideas are crap, but this I decided, demanded further investigation. So I grabs a rulebook, wondering if sticking in a non-Fast Cavalry character into a Fast Cavalry unit would strip them of their status. And guess what? It doesn't. The only limitation is that the character(s) in question do not benefit from any FC assosciated shooting rules, so no March and Shoot, and no 360 line of fire.

I decided to see what happens when you stick a (fairly) combat competent character into a unit of fisticuff avoiding men.

Well, I'll tell you. You end up with a unit that is the scourge of your opponent! No longer will Skirmishers give my pause for thought when flanking! Oh no! Just charge them, and watch the Captain give them a good hiding, before the unit runs down the remainder. Not only can I now outflank my opponent and shoot off the odd rank here and there, but mein Uberunit can actually get stuck in if offered a rear charge! This one unit took out so much stuff, hardly anything was left for my Spearmen, who felt all left out and haven't performed well since, even though I painted them first (ungrateful sods!)

So, what do you think? Although a perfectly legitimate option, do you reckon that this might have been overlooked? Or have I missed something, and it's even remotely legal, despite me looking for such a decree in the rulebook?

I suggest you try it! It really does ramp up the kill quota of your Fast Cavalry!

Crube
03-09-2007, 13:12
*sits in the corner taking notes*


I dont have my BRB with me...can you really do that? My only point would be that in my experience, an Empire Captain isnt really that hard in combat - I'd rather be spending points on more models (pistoliers or whatever)... How did you equip him - I'm assuming it was just to make up points, so only about 75 or so...?

theunwantedbeing
03-09-2007, 13:13
Perfectly fine thing to do.
Nothing wrong with it at all.

Makaber
03-09-2007, 13:14
It's totally legit. Go for it. Not unsporting at all.

Avian
03-09-2007, 13:22
I don't see it. My Wolf Riders (with no character) will usually get stuck in when offered the opportunity for a rear charge.

Previously, including a Warrior Priest with Pistoliers (back in 6th edition when they were great in combat) could be considered a bit dubious, but I'm having trouble seeing how anyone could possibly object to including a character in a fragile support unit. If such a unit was the scourge of your opponent then they were doing something wrong.

Little Aaad
03-09-2007, 13:30
Can Chaos do that I wonder?

daemonkin
03-09-2007, 13:54
Don't see why not. Stick an asp. chimp in unit of horsemen and go terrorize the flanks!

D.

explorator
03-09-2007, 15:31
I have seen an Aspiring champ in a unit of Marauder horse work very well. Always nice to suprise your opponent with a different tactic.

Sabbad
03-09-2007, 15:50
It is totally legal and totally sporting. A grizzled old veteran to lead forth the young impetuous wannabe knights. :D

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-09-2007, 17:04
*sits in the corner taking notes*


I dont have my BRB with me...can you really do that? My only point would be that in my experience, an Empire Captain isnt really that hard in combat - I'd rather be spending points on more models (pistoliers or whatever)... How did you equip him - I'm assuming it was just to make up points, so only about 75 or so...?

Around that, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barding, and of course, a Pistol (just so he didn't feel left out!)

But when your adding 3 S6 attacks to a unit that normally only throws out S3 in HTH, it really does make a difference. Fewer attacks back, and I'm generally beating my opponent by 2 to 3 points, which is detrimental to anyones chances of passing!

So the general consensus is that this is a *good* underhand sneaky tactic then?

Chiron
03-09-2007, 17:22
Its certainly cheaper than giving him a pegasus and casket, not exactly underhand though, just seldom used, I've occasionally used a Wizard with a MR1 item to give them a bit more survivabilty

(worked too, lvl4 wizard once threw everything at him for about 3 turns before they all died all while holding up an entire flank)

505
03-09-2007, 17:24
on a similar note. normally I use my Shadow warriors to march block. often they get ignored..untill I once (for fun) put a prince with the armor of sadows and bow of the seafarer. as he ignored my shadow wariors He started to get boltthrower shots in his flank. I don't think he has ever ignored them since.

mabey Ill try my +1 rerollable armor save prince in with reavers that will be something I havent tried

Lord Dan
03-09-2007, 18:13
Remember, if the character's horse has barding, he also cause his unit to move at M7. Kind of problematic for a unit of fast cav.

I don't think that's bad at all. Bad, friend, is a unit of 12 inner circle knights with a warbanner, with a priest with the rod of command, a BSB captain with various nasties, and a Templar Grand Master with the speculum and the laurels of victory.

Everything rerolls to hit, and the unit has a base combat resolution of +5. My poor Goblin spearmen... :cries:

D-Archangel
03-09-2007, 18:16
I see it as a brilliant move. not too many people use their precious character slots on something like that, so the surprise is even bigger

I might have to try it myself one day

Festus
03-09-2007, 18:56
Hi

I do a similar thing with my Hobgobs. Mount a Hero on a Wolf, give him Heavy Armour and an Enchanted shield along with a GW, and you have a nice 70 point cruise missile, who can easily join my Hobgob Wolfboyz...

Festus

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-09-2007, 19:00
I don't see it. My Wolf Riders (with no character) will usually get stuck in when offered the opportunity for a rear charge.

Previously, including a Warrior Priest with Pistoliers (back in 6th edition when they were great in combat) could be considered a bit dubious, but I'm having trouble seeing how anyone could possibly object to including a character in a fragile support unit. If such a unit was the scourge of your opponent then they were doing something wrong.

I guess Wolf Riders, and other FC with access to Spears can get stuck in, but when your limited to S3, the character makes all the difference.

My opponent totally underestimated what they were capable of, and ever since, people have been a bit funny about choosing how to deal with them. After all, they don't offer that many VPs, but are capable of collapsing a flank,

Finn Sourscowl
03-09-2007, 19:23
a friend of mine does something similar with a unit of Dark Riders who have an extremely annoying nobel riding around with them. Do all sorts of weird and wonderful (read: downright annoying!) things. Rather more expensive, points wise, than your suggestion, though,I'd have thought, Mad Doc!

solvay
03-09-2007, 19:25
sounds like a very nasty tactic since its a unit that can cause some damage but isnt that strong so you can force your opponent to concentrate on one unit then hit with another harder one

Holy Crap! Manticores!
03-09-2007, 19:45
Hardly sneaky or underhanded, but if it works, go for it. I put a slightly tooled up Noble in a unit of Dark Riders to excellent effect, similar to your experiences, although my big thing now is using a Sorc in a unit of DR's... it gets her where she needs to be to cast that short-ranged Dark magic.

PS, characters do not get the 360 deg LOS that FC get for shooting or magic when used like this, but are free to act with the FC rules otherwise.

DeathlessDraich
03-09-2007, 19:53
You're balancing two things, A) making a weak support unit stronger and B) susceptability to magic and shooting and losing more VC than you normally would if the unit breaks, panics or is destroyed.

Pistoliers with a character will definitely attract more shooting and magic than it normally would but the combination will certainly do well against slower combat orientated opposition.

Neknoh
03-09-2007, 21:41
Why barding on the steed? Won't that slow down the unit? I mean... does he really need barding? A Lance, Heavy Armour and pistol seems a rather fluffy and very useable armament, I mean, a few plates covering shins, forearms and his chest, a long and slender lance in his arm and a pistol by his side... I am getting loads of modelling ideas here... see you guys in a week :p

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-09-2007, 23:59
It's on the model unfortuately, so I feel obliged to take.

Plus, he kicks the unit up to Ld8 basic, giving them Ld9 for that all important Feigned Flight, which he benefits from as well, which is filthy!

night2501
04-09-2007, 00:53
well actually I been using that with my WE for some time, and yes it does work well, it work well
I even went as far as stiking a higborn with glade riders

Venkh
04-09-2007, 02:14
I believe Ash FROM d.net pioneered this tactic (first time I saw it anyway)

Nobles in dark rider units jumping around and generally making a mess of the enemy. (Just dont forget that he only gets their movement rules)

Another very sneaky tactic is to line up the unit 2 wide and 3 deep (i would never be cheeky enough to go 1 wide) and then look for a flank or rear charge. Hopefully the noble should kill all of the models in contact and his armour will probabaly save him from any retaliation. I dont need to show you any stats to demonstrate how nasty that can be against most mid sized units.

I use this tactic less these days because I almost never see any ranked infantry anymore. Round my way its all missiles and support units:(

Dracosavarian
04-09-2007, 03:36
Completely Legit.


Frustrating? Perhaps, if your opponent isn't prepared for it. Which they most likely aren't.


Chaos Dwarf players will do this regularly with Hobgoblin Wolf Riders with Bows. As Festus stated, it's a cruise missile in an otherwise unseemingly pitiable unit. It's completely unexpected by alot of players though, as they always either expect characters on a monstrous mount, in a unit of knights, or in the rank and file units.

They very rarely expect an atomic bomb sitting on a wolf just waiting to collide into the unsuspecting hind end of the enemy.


That's why it's so amusing I guess. :)

Draconis

pcgamer72
04-09-2007, 05:38
So, the character gains the fast-cav ability when put in with them?

Neknoh
04-09-2007, 07:12
No

However, the unit retains all of it's special rules, including the Free Reform rule, and, when reforming, you reform the entire unit, and thus, the character goes with the reform.

So, he doesn't get the rule, but it applies to him when it comes to reforming (he still can't shoot 360 degrees or march and fire, but he doesn't prevent the rest of the unit from doing that)

kroq'gar
04-09-2007, 11:25
Im getting the notion of a warrior priest in pistoliers... whole unit (and under the new rules) steeds would reroll hits...

on another point, wouldnt full plate and no barding make more sense than a barded heavy armour guy?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-09-2007, 18:34
It would, but as I said above, the barding is on his model, so I have to take it.
But a Warrior Priest is also another option, but arguably a wasted character.

The beauty of the Captain is his low low points cost. I can stick him in the unit, tooled up, for less than you'd pay for a basic Warrior Priest. Plus, he gets a lance, allowing for S6 on the charge, whereas the best a Priest can manage is a Great Weapon. I have also found that people try to pick out the character in combat, so the extra save afforded (2+ rather than 4+) generally saves your Bacon!

Crazy Harborc
05-09-2007, 02:13
Well......I'll be surprising some regular opponents when next I push my Empire troops onto the battlefield. I have a couple of extra unbarded horses. I already have a hero on one. (I like DoW unbarded heavy cav. They needed a hero). Ohhh yes....one of the regulars will waste time trying to find rules that don't allow it.:evilgrin:

Unwise
05-09-2007, 07:47
I have put a HE hero in a unit of Ellyrion Reavers before, it worked to great effect. HE can use special barding that does not slow down the horses.

The character had a 2+ (0+ vs shoooting I think) save and was stubborn. His added damage helped break the small enemy unit protecting the flank. When the time was right, he left the reaver unit and charged into a large block of troops (I think witchelves if I remember correctly) which he then single handedly held up for the whole remainder of the game.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-09-2007, 19:47
Bare in mind of course, such a unit would be pretty important to your strategy. Having a unit start rolling up a flank is only useful to you if the rest of your army is capable of exploiting the impending disorder in the enemy ranks!

One of my favourite tricks with this is to hold off on the charge until I get my Flagellants stuck in to his main block, thus preventing him from moving his general to assist etc..

chivalrous
05-09-2007, 23:36
I always put my Dark elf character on a Dark Steed in with a unit of Dark Riders, the DR's themselves are little more than 'Blade of Ruin Delivery System' that also happens to negate rank bonuses.


Hardly sneaky or underhanded, but if it works, go for it. I put a slightly tooled up Noble in a unit of Dark Riders to excellent effect, similar to your experiences, although my big thing now is using a Sorc in a unit of DR's... it gets her where she needs to be to cast that short-ranged Dark magic.

*chuckles* Another favourite of mine, although expensive, is to put a BSB with the Banner or Murder into the unit as well as a Noble with the Blade of Ruin. works wonders against High Elf Dragon Ponces.

Kerill
06-09-2007, 02:33
Can work well for chaos too since marauder cavalry are both fast cavalry and very hard hitting. Against an opponent with missile troops and war machines its a bit of a risk unless they have the golden eye/daemonsteed. On a daemonic steed the unit also causes fear (becoming immune) and the character gets an extra 2 S5 attacks from it. The rally+move after fleeing thing can be very useful too.

Having said that the risk of warmachines/missile troops for an expensive character is a risk so my characters usually start in a bigger unit but I have no qualms about sticking them with fast cavalry if I can get away with it. Even hounds if need be :)

daemonkin
06-09-2007, 08:55
Are you sure about the fear in a unit rule? I didn't think the unit was immune unless the whole unit had the fear rule or ItP.

I could be wrong though.

D.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-09-2007, 11:10
If one model in the unit cause fear, the whole unit is immune to it. It doesn't work if one model is ItP tho, it have to cause fear itself.

Anyweay, it's hardly sneaky or underhanded. It's a good way to add punch to a fast cavalry unit, but you still run the risk of seeing the captain sent off because someone beat up on the very fragile troopers he is with, or just shoot them and panic him off the table.

daemonkin
06-09-2007, 11:18
Cool.
So with my marauder of Skeggi Lord on a cold one in a unit of marauders they are all immune to fear? (assuming my opponent agrees to using WD listed characters?)

D.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
06-09-2007, 18:50
Yes indeed. But don;t forget for the purposes of Auto-Break against opponents, you only count US2 for the Lord and his Mount.