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View Full Version : What woud happen if the emperor destoryed a warp god?



RedStompa
03-09-2007, 16:43
Assuming this were to happen, what would be the result on the chaos legion/cults affilited with the god? How would the other gods react? Would they turn upon one another? what would happen to the affiliated legions/parties if that happened?

ryng_sting
03-09-2007, 17:16
Once we concede that this utterly impossible, the other Chaos gods would pick and infight over the spoils, maybe scoop up a few deprived followers of the other god. More or less as they do now.

Chilltouch
03-09-2007, 17:23
Assuming it's one of the Big Four, the whirlpool of that emotion would slowly begin to grow and grow until the other Gods can't consume it fast enough and the God is reborn.

To effectively kill the God, you'd have to cut off all traces of that emotion. You'd have to grab every living creature and somehow make them all unable to feel pleasure, despair, hope or hatred. And then, you have finally killed the Chaos Gods.

templar1013
03-09-2007, 19:46
The chaos Gods are more like manifestations of emotion than anything else, so just like Chilltouch said, youd have to destroy the emotion to kill the God.

Drogmir
03-09-2007, 19:55
So very impossible, like other's said you'd have to kill that emotion to kill the god otherwise he'd just come back.

RedStompa
03-09-2007, 22:31
Well how would 'rot and disease' constitute as an emotion?

What WOULD be the emotions that would create nurgle, besaides overwhelming bad hygene?

My main question, since this is a Hypothetical situation, is what would happen to the followers of one of the Big Four if one of the Big Four was somehow destroyed? Would the followers just be like: What the flipfragging hell am I doing here?

What would members of the chaos legion (regular tac marines for example) do (apart from sorcerers and psykers, cause their heads would probally splode...) would they have a similar reaction to a normal cultist?:confused::confused::confused:

DantesInferno
03-09-2007, 23:11
What WOULD be the emotions that would create nurgle, besaides overwhelming bad hygene?

Despair. Disease is just his symbolic way of getting his message across.

Kage2020
03-09-2007, 23:11
If it means anything, I'm going to have to wade in with those people that are saying that it is not possible to kill a Chaos God. Or, rather, highly unlikely. For me, to destroy the Ruinous Powers one has to change the fundamental "consciousness" of sapient life -- remove war, hate, etc., etc.

Kage

DantesInferno
03-09-2007, 23:40
If it means anything, I'm going to have to wade in with those people that are saying that it is not possible to kill a Chaos God. Or, rather, highly unlikely. For me, to destroy the Ruinous Powers one has to change the fundamental "consciousness" of sapient life -- remove war, hate, etc., etc.

Kage

To be fair, the galaxy seemed to be doing ok for 60 million years or so without Slaanesh, so it would appear that at least one of the Chaos Gods isn't absolutely necessary for self-conscious life.....

But I guess our responses to this thread are really determined by what you see the Chaos Gods to be. If you think there is literally a giant guy sitting on a throne of skulls somewhere in the Warp, and this is what we mean by "Khorne", then this thread might make sense. The guy in the Warp could be killed by someone else.

I'm much more inclined to see it as metaphoric in some way though (in the same way as I see the Emperor's warp presence, I suppose). On this view, it would be pretty much impossible to kill "Khorne".

The_Patriot
03-09-2007, 23:43
GW would be forced to update the storyline and go past 40,999 which means new codeci and miniatures. :D

Most likely nothing would happen since the god would cease to exist. Although down the road another god would appear to take his place because you can't remove those emotions from humanity.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 00:04
To be fair, the galaxy seemed to be doing ok for 60 million years or so without Slaanesh, so it would appear that at least one of the Chaos Gods isn't absolutely necessary for self-conscious life...
You are correct. The responses are determined by our interpretation. In this case I would argue that Slaanesh always existed, but was merely given another face by the Eldar. It merely assumes the generic nature of 'emotions,' not the cultural relation and importance of those emotions.

Kage

Drogmir
04-09-2007, 00:22
Well how would 'rot and disease' constitute as an emotion?

What WOULD be the emotions that would create nurgle, besaides overwhelming bad hygene?

My main question, since this is a Hypothetical situation, is what would happen to the followers of one of the Big Four if one of the Big Four was somehow destroyed? Would the followers just be like: What the flipfragging hell am I doing here?

What would members of the chaos legion (regular tac marines for example) do (apart from sorcerers and psykers, cause their heads would probally splode...) would they have a similar reaction to a normal cultist?:confused::confused::confused:

Ok let me put this in emotion ways

Khorne: Anger, Hate
Tzeentch: Scheming, plotting, spite
Nurgle: despair
Slanneesh: decadence

RapidKiller
04-09-2007, 01:20
if he were to kill a god, the never ending cycle of the god affecting the universe would end, there would still be rage and despair, just not the god to magnify those emotions. a god is not made out of the emotions of the living but rather the shards of the souls of the dead so a chaos god can be killed (if one were powerful)

azimaith
04-09-2007, 01:39
Killing a chaos god wouldn't require removing all traces of its emotion. It would just require outrageous displays of that part of it.

Slannesh didn't come into being until the Eldar got so bad it warped reality.

Its not like this:
"Hmm, I feel kind of hungry, I know i'm on a diet but I'm sure eating too much just this once won't be too..."

"I AM SLANNESH COME TO FEAST UPON YOUR DESIRES! KNEEL IN SUPPLICATION INSECT RAWRARWWRARARWRR!!!"

Khaine's Messenger
04-09-2007, 05:49
Assuming this were to happen, what would be the result on the chaos legion/cults affilited with the god?

That may depend on the nature of such "destruction"...if we're talking about the standard "subsumes into self" schtick, then prepare for all hell breaking loose as the belief systems of two disparate beings start becoming even more syncretized than they ever were before (in the sense that some Emperor-worship is actually Chaos-worship by another name). It would really change very little except create a bizarro political implosion where Five become Four in contradiction to Nurgle and Tzeentch's proclamation of inevitability (per the LC narration of the Khorne and the birth of Slaanesh). Or the other gods would expand their own purviews, reintegrating bits of themselves they remember from the time when they were still ur-creatures of only barest consciousness, vastly magnifying their own powers and making Chaos a yet-more-intractable foe.

The biggest thing is, I think, you have to take into account the basic reorganization of the cosmos you'd suffer for a feat like that...if the Emperor actually fought and destroyed a Chaos God, you might be looking at another Eye of Terror level event.

Free Spirit
04-09-2007, 07:19
You are correct. The responses are determined by our interpretation. In this case I would argue that Slaanesh always existed, but was merely given another face by the Eldar. It merely assumes the generic nature of 'emotions,' not the cultural relation and importance of those emotions.

Kage

Very true, but if Slaanesh was there all along he didn't have much power in the material realm untill he was 'born'. He would just be floating energy in the warp ( or in that essence ). I think 'born' should be considered as a power increase so Slaanesh can infect the material realm the same way the other Chaos gods already could. The question is does this increase in power also spawn a manifestation in the warp instead of the God just 'being' there in some form of warp energy? If a manifestation of Slaanesh appears in the warp he could be 'killed' and would need another emotion surge to be reborn. The birth of Slaanesh was such a unique happening and only the Eldar ( who feel about ten times stronger in case of emotions and stuff like that ) in almost their full number would be able to give birth to him again, highly unlikely. All comes down to the point of how you see the Ruinous powers in the warp, are they walking around there, or are they just energy?

mongoosedog300
04-09-2007, 08:37
So if we killed everything in the universe (except the necrons), and replaced them all with Jedi, then the Chaos Gods should be gone....right? :p

Back on topic: I'm going to go with the stance that it would be highly unlikely that one of the gods would be destroyed. I like to think of them as the greek gods, they "existed" to the greek's because the greek's believed in them, but we don't now, so it would be generally thought that they actually don't exist.

SO...if everyone in the 40k universe stopped believing in them, they wouldn't exist. :p

When Black Roses Bloom
04-09-2007, 10:30
Assuming it's one of the Big Four, the whirlpool of that emotion would slowly begin to grow and grow until the other Gods can't consume it fast enough and the God is reborn.

To effectively kill the God, you'd have to cut off all traces of that emotion. You'd have to grab every living creature and somehow make them all unable to feel pleasure, despair, hope or hatred. And then, you have finally killed the Chaos Gods.

That one. Also I don't think that a sentience can be killed. Scared, fall dormant perhaps, yes. But not killed.

Many people offcourse will ask "why The Nightbringer could eat his brothers and send them to oblivion and the Emperor can't kill a single chaos entity?"

I think the specific action was more like a Genesis chapter, a myth in the history between the Star Gods and the Slaan, than a real case.

RedStompa
05-09-2007, 00:25
Well I thought that daemons could fight and kill eachother in the warp, I must be thinking of daemon worlds. Still, if a daemon were to kil another daemon, what would happen to the other one? this happened in Dead sky black sun, but i wasnt really clear what happened.

also:

if a chaos go were to manifest itself on a planet, and *hypothetically* the emperor did the same, what would happen? I doubt the cultists and maines in whatnot would just shurg their shoulders and say 'oh well, he was a nice guy, have me this tenicle arm and some useless spikey things on my skin but when your times up, it up.

sorry for missing letters, thi is a **** laptop in the common area.

would other lesser daemond try to rush to fill the power vaccum?

Gdolkin
05-09-2007, 00:51
I'm with the whirlpool/vortex idea: i reckon the Four are all warpstorms, so to speak, accumulations. Where like has attracted like and fed back on itself. Sentient warp-hurricanes of rage/ pleasure/ despair/ hope, and souls consumed by these emotions, roaring in the no-place of the Warp. These may have the power to represent themselves as a giant bestial warrior on a throne of skulls/ a hermaphrodite figure of irresistible seductiveness/ a big foul stinking diseased troll/ whatever (or just as likely, also 'really be' those things as well as being the aforementioned warp-vortices, it's the warp..)
Daemons, when 'killed' in the materium, return to the warp right? so i guess if they kill eachother in the warp they just return to the storm of power of their God and lose all individuality and consciousness.
I can't make sense of one of the Four being killed, i'm not sure what 'killed' means to them or of them..
all imho, read it on warseer :)

RedStompa
05-09-2007, 03:37
:mad:But everyone is as clueless as me about this subject!:mad:

Hive Mind 33
05-09-2007, 03:43
you can't really destroy a chaos god. It has no soul you can destroy the physical manifestation of said god but he will just got back into the warp. in order to truly destroy a chaos god you would have to eliminate the Human emotion as was all ready said. Hate for Khorne, Hope for Tzeentch, Despair for Nurgle. and the Keeper of secerts im not sure about because the eldar created her or him or it

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 16:45
Assuming just for the sake of pure hypothetical argument, that the storm that was a warp god were to somehow spontaneously or through outside agency suddenly dissipate...what would happen next would depend on whether there is still a source of souls, worship, or emotion to the deceased god. If there were none, or near enough to none, then the god would well and truly be dead. If there was still a steady source, then a new accretion would start to form in the warp until it gained consciousness again. It might call itself by a new name, and it might have different personality quirks or preferences but it would be a god of the same portfolio as the former one.

RedStompa
07-09-2007, 18:44
so what your saying is that in the interrum of the god being dead the cultists/legions wouldn't know?

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 01:03
They might not know. I think they might notice their gifts and dark miracles drying up but they may chalk that up as divine whim.

RedStompa
08-09-2007, 01:57
well psykers would know wouldn't they? I mean chaos sorcerors, they would be like: OH NOEEEESSSSS!!!!! :(

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 03:35
Sorcerors don't have a hotline to their god. Much of what they do is via visions or their own beliefs. Again they may simply have no visions and attribute that to the god choosing not to send them. Alternatively they may get visions from some other source and attribute them to their god even when it wasn't from the god.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 03:41
Destroying a Chaos God would be pretty much impossible...I think what may be hypothetically possible is for the Emperor's "spiritual power", which would manifest itself in such a way as to be a super cliched golden aura of perfect goodness, could "cleanse" and alter a Chaos God, until he/she/it became more like him.

Why do I think this is possible? I don't know. Since the Chaos Gods are shaped by those who worship them, and those who worship the Chaos Gods are self centered jackasses in general, getting rid of the Jackasses would mean that the Chaos Gods would slowly become more like the "Starchild", and thus, a hypothetical destruction of a Chaos God by the Emperor's Warp Being would have to be echoed in the materium by victory over the Chaos Legions and the destruction of the Eye of Terror.

That was a whole bunch of Star Trekish gobbledygook.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 03:47
Warp entities only draw to themselves souls like that of which they are composed of. Getting rid of bloodthirsty maniacs wouldn't convert Khorne to be more nice and friendly at all since Khorne is composed of a conglomeration of bloodthirsty souls. What it would mean though would be that Khorne would have nothing to feed on and would start to starve. However, warp gods have the power to incite and inspire those emotions that they feed on in the first place, so long before Khorne for example starved to death he would act to rectify the situation by promoting bloodshed in the material universe.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 03:49
Warp entities only draw to themselves souls like that of which they are composed of. Getting rid of bloodthirsty maniacs wouldn't convert Khorne to be more nice and friendly at all since Khorne is composed of a conglomeration of bloodthirsty souls. What it would mean though would be that Khorne would have nothing to feed on and would start to starve. However, warp gods have the power to incite and inspire those emotions that they feed on in the first place, so long before Khorne for example starved to death he would act to rectify the situation by promoting bloodshed in the material universe.

What if the Emperor could in some way cockblock against Khorne's inteference in the Material realm, since Khorne would be in such a weakened state?

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 03:55
The Emperor was trying to do such behind the scenes when he was on Earth before he revealed himself. He didn't have much success. At best he probably at most slowed the rate of intake, never stopping it entirely.

The Big Four Chaos gods are just that...very big. They could probably live off of their reserves for a long long time before becoming truly helpless. It is doubtful, virtually impossible, for humanity in its current state to be devoid for so long of the emotions and extreme personalities that feed these gods.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 03:57
The Emperor was trying to do such behind the scenes when he was on Earth before he revealed himself. He didn't have much success. At best he probably at most slowed the rate of intake, never stopping it entirely.

Well, the initial spread of the Imperium certainly was a threat to the Chaos Gods, as they came begging to Horus for intervention.

So, to me, it seems not so absurd that the Emperor could (or could have been) be a threat to them in some way.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 04:02
I'm talking about pre-Imperium, pre-Age of Strife Emperor. He went behind the scenes on Earth during much of human history attempting to cut off the intake of the newly born Chaos gods. He was unable to stop Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle from awakening and growing.

The Imperium and the Primarch project was a change of strategy. Instead of trying to nudge humanity subtly, he went for the blatant strongarm approach. The Primarchs were meant to be the prototypes for a new sort of humanity, more resistant to the lures of the Chaos gods. The threat of a new engineered humanity spreading across the galaxy was what the Chaos gods were responding to.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 04:03
Well then the "deaths" or at least largescale reduction of influence in some Chaos Gods is not impossible or implausible.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 04:06
Impossible or implausible in the current state of the Imperium. The Emperor is out of action in the material universe. The Primarch project was derailed, and humanity is as it always has been. Though their Arch-Champion was defeated, arguably the Chaos gods won in the long term as the threat of a new humanity and the Emperor was removed.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 04:17
Impossible or implausible in the current state of the Imperium. The Emperor is out of action in the material universe. The Primarch project was derailed, and humanity is as it always has been. Though their Arch-Champion was defeated, arguably the Chaos gods won in the long term as the threat of a new humanity and the Emperor was removed.


Or you could say that Chaos lost because their effect on the Material universe is almost nil, as the Imperium has adopted a new longstanding form that has held firm and able to shake off Black Crusades with seeming ease, as well as creating the Emperor in the new form of Warp God, who is able to steal souls away from the Big 4.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 04:24
The Chaos gods have a lot more than "nil" influence. The Imperium is riddled with cults, and is eroding from the multitude of threats assailing its borders, while the 13th Black Crusade ended in a victory for Chaos. The Emperor sacrificed himself to win one round but that may have cost him the war.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 05:02
The Imperium is riddled with cults, and is eroding from the multitude of threats assailing its borders, while the 13th Black Crusade ended in a victory for Chaos.


Wait? A victory in the sense that they didn't actually accomplish anything beyond the usual spiel of "SPREADING TEH DEATH AND DESTRUCTIONZ!", or a victory in the sense that they conquered a little bit of the Cadian gate and were then thrown back?

And, the idea that a million world Empire of quadrillions of people is "eroding" seems a bit silly, especially when they seem to have easily met every major military challenge they have faced so far.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 05:36
They conquered worlds around the Cadian Gate and are still sitting there right now, not thrown back. Read on the official background where it states the battles are still ongoing and that Chaos still has a foothold on the material universe, not the wishful thinking of those Imperials that still can't accept they lost a worldwide campaign.

The fact a wedge has been bitten out of the Imperium's Eastern fringes (check the Epic Hive War map for where the old and new border of the Astronomicon is) by the Tyranids, the fact the Imperium has had to reshuffle forces from its borders to meet the Cadian Gate threat, and the fact the Imperium had to resort to subterfuge instead of outright confrontation against Leviathan all point to an Imperium that is struggling to make ends meet.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 05:38
They conquered worlds around the Cadian Gate and are still sitting there right now. Read on the official background where it states the battles are still ongoing and that Chaos still has a foothold on the material universe, not the wishful thinking of those Imperials that still can't accept they lost a worldwide campaign.

"The Thirteenth Black Crusade was the background to the world-wide Warhammer 40,000 Eye of Terror campaign, which resulted in a minor victory for the forces of Chaos and gave Abaddon a foothold on the Cadian Gate, though he suffered devastating losses to his fleet. His foothold on the Cadian Gate was later dislodged by a vicious counter-attack led by Admiral Quarren and elements from several chapters of the Space Marines."

Maybe you should stop throwing accusations around if you are going to get your facts wrong.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 05:43
You're quoting from the error prone Wikipedia entries. As I've said in another thread, they are riddled with bias and errors such as for example where they grossly mistake what is the nature of the C'tan's Great Work.

Admiral Quarren led a counterattack that drove off the Blackstone Fortress. It did not dislodge the Chaos foothold on the Gate. Check with the WD articles if you're in doubt. As I said, go look to official publications, not fan ones or hearsay. The only ones saying the Imperials drove off Chaos are those same people that have been trying to scrape for excuses on why they didn't "really lose" the campaign.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 05:47
Hmmm...well I believe I had read somewhere else the same thing, Wikipedia was just the first place I found it written.

Well, whatever I don't feel like searching teh intraweb tonight, so I guess I'll concede the point. Chaos holds a bit of the Cadian Gate...but they haven't seemed to have done much with it as of yet.

BTW, I object to your throwing around phrases such as fanboy and all that internet ********.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 05:50
Trawl my posts. Nowhere have I used the term fanboy.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 05:54
God...it is late...:wtf: My mind is playing tricks on me.

Anyway, what I meant was I resented you implying that it was Imperial bias I was presenting...I was simply misinformed (I guess) by Wikipedia and I think various posters on this board.

The point is: I am not arguing Imperial bias - GW seems to have an Imperial bias, considering that in WHFB Chaos is a threat that dooms the world, whereas in WH40k they are a tiny, mostly irrelevant force who can barely effect a segmentum's worth of affairs.

Not that I mind...the various Xenos races are much more interesting adversaries for the Imperium than Chaos.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 06:00
Chaos affects the entire Imperium in its current state. There is the more blatant effect of the current direct military foothold on the Gate that is draining resources from the Eastern fringe for the Tau to exploit. However the rest of it is more a corrosive effect in the form of cults, rebellions, uprisings, piratical raids, and turning parts of the Imperium against itself. All these need putting down and they end up draining further manpower and resources from elsewhere. In cases where it proceeds to Exterminatus, it means the Imperium having to destroy one of its own worlds and losing the income from that world permanently. Chaos isn't the be all and end all of threats, but it certainly isn't minor.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 06:06
Yes, but none of this is new. The Imperium has weathered the storm for 10,000 years. For every planet they destroy they gain a new one, either by conquest, reconquest, or colonization.

The Imperium loses and gains planets like a big city loses or gains people.

That is one of the problems of 40k in many people's eyes - how can an Empire that has existed for 10,000 years, which is immeasurably vast and powerful really be under any true threat? The Tyranids could devour all of the Eastern Fringe and life would still go on as normal on Terra and in 95% of the Imperium.

As decentralized and vast as the Imperium is...nothing short of a dagger straight to Terra itself would signal its complete defeat or collapse.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 06:12
The general trend however is downward. Between the other threats the Imperium is assailed with, and Chaos infiltration which further saps the Imperium's strength to deal with other threats, the Imperium is eroding. As mentioned previously, and shown on GW maps, there is a big chunk of the Imperium that was pushed back by the first Tyranid fleets. Even though those fleets were defeated, that area is barren and now unsettled.

Imperial technology continues to stagnate and erode as well, despite the AdMech's attempts to recover technology. The Imperium's tech is one step forward two steps back. "Research" in the Imperium is more like archeology, rather than original development.

Chaos, ignoring for the moment Abaddon's breakout from the Gate, is like the Orks. They are the spoiler force that diverts attention and resources the Imperium could use elsewhere. I'm not saying the Imperium's collapse is imminent but it is headed in that direction. It is declining. Sure, life on Terra would go on if the Eastern fringe were gone, but it means the Imperium would be shrunken. More demands would be placed on fewer worlds, and there would be less resources and manpower to go around. More worlds would be opened up to attacks and raids by enemies.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 06:15
The trend is downward, and of course the Imperium as a force will eventually fall, but I see it on a timeline of several more thousand years.

Of course, there are two vague hopes for the Imperium at the moment:

1. That the whole Starchild thing isn't bull, or

2. They weather the Tyranid storm, and eventually they stop showing up, and hopefully they can normalize things back to "stalemate" instead of "achingly slow downward trend."


I'm not saying the Imperium's collapse is imminent but it is headed in that direction. It is declining. Sure, life on Terra would go on if the Eastern fringe were gone, but it means the Imperium would be shrunken. More demands would be placed on fewer worlds, and there would be less resources and manpower to go around. More worlds would be opened up to attacks and raids by enemies.

Or...you could look at it as nearly the same amount of military resources concentrated within a smaller perimeter.

The Imperium would tend to be HARDER to defeat the smaller it got, assuming that the majority of the planets it lost were poorly defended fringe planets (which seems to be the case), and not massively important planets like Armageddon (which is gutted but holding) or Cadia (which is in trouble but holding.)

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 06:22
I wouldn't count on the Tyranid threat ending any time soon. If one looks at the numbers and resources of just one world, and the fact the Tyranids strip it in such a short time, the Tyranids numbers can replenish incredibly rapidly. All it would take are a few feral, minimally settled, or unsettled worlds to be consumed and the amount of raw material is enough to spawn an enormous number of Tyranids. Fighting the Tyranids is like fighting a mobile ecosystem.

They are probably an even greater threat IMO than others since they aim for extermination of humanity and whatever else they consume along the way). The Chaos gods merely want to enslave, not wipe out. Same goes for the C'tan. The Tyranid threat is temporarily under control in the sense the largest concentration is currently occupied fighting the Orks, but such a state of affairs can't persist indefinitely. Of course it is the nature of the Imperium and humanity to be short sighted, so I fully expect the High Lords of Terra and/or the Inquisition to procrastinate and put off til later any attempt to really solve the issue.