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NeonDante
03-09-2007, 19:33
There's something that's been gnawing at my mind for a while, and I thought I'd share it. In the game, the Marines and the Guard are basically balanced (No arguments... this is a background thread. :P) but in the fiction the marines are much more powerful then the guard, point for point. This seems to hold true even in pro-guard fiction. I seem to recall (I could be wrong on this) that in one of the Tanith books, someone says that guard doesn't fight marines, only marines fight marines, or something along those lines.

So, what do you think? Are the marines misrepresented in the fluff as supermen, or are they radically powered down for the game in the name of balance? I'm not putting it as a poll because I'm interested in a discussion, rather then votes.

Me, I picture things like the game, but I tend to favor the underdog. Thoughts?

Cartographer
03-09-2007, 19:45
Marines are radically powered down in the game for balance.
Take a look at a Marine's stats in Inquisitor and compare them to an IG veteran for a more direct comparison.

Or, by way of example, damage that would cripple or kill an IG veteran outright would possibly knock a marine off of his feet (if directed at his head and he wasn't wearing a helmet), the marine would however just get up, no worse for wear next turn.

Chilltouch
03-09-2007, 20:08
They're severely powered down for the sake of balance.

Sometime ago there were stats for "Movie Marines", which is basically what they would really be like. They essentially became carnifexes with high initiative armed with assault cannons and master crafted power weapons. I forgot where that stuff has gone.

superknijn
03-09-2007, 20:24
Well, a Marine (in power armour) is usually (and to be honest, always) described as being able to crush a man's skull with his hands, break his bones with hardly any effort, and walk through brick walls.

Aphex Geek
03-09-2007, 20:27
there is a slight misrepresentation in the fluff .. even with their super enhancements marines wouldnt be 'that' strong... there is a principal called the 'law of squares' i believe i may have that wrong.. that deals with strength realative to size...

it states that if you increase the size of something by 2, its strength will increase by a factor of 4 but its weight increases by a factor of 8..

so in example

jimmy the guards man stands at exactly 5' tall.. (hes pretty short but it makes it easier for me to do the maths)

he weighs about 150lbs (or 10 stone)

his guard training reigeme keeps him fit so we'll say he's able to lift his own body weight again... (again easy maths)

now the nice people at the bio-magus increase jimmys height to 10' (taller than most marines but just to demonstrate the rule)

the law now states that jimmy can lift 600lbs or 40stone (go super jimmy!)
however he now weighs 1200lbs (80 stone) so can only lift half his body weight now...
i realise these figures are used as extreems... but they demonstrate an inescapable truth.. marines may be super engineered humans with great strength but alot of that strength is used to support their own increased bulk..

and power armour accounts for some of that strength but still... ya know... theres a limit to how powerful the human frame can be.. we're not muscularly or skeletally designed for strength.. unlike some primates...

i did have a point when i started this post but now im a little tired and wired on caffine and its been a long day so i feel like rambling a bit.. basically what i think i was trying to say is that marines should be chimps in space... at least.. i think i was :wtf:

Chilltouch
03-09-2007, 20:34
Space Marines aren't human. They don't have to obey that law at all. They no longer even have a truly "human" frame. They're inhuman after the modifications. So, they can be as strong as the writer likes.

icegreentea
03-09-2007, 21:05
marines are both powered own in games, as well as kinda overpowered in fluff. there are some things that just arent physically possible, like rolling around with that giant backpack powerplant that marines tend to do all the time in fluff. also some of the agility of the marines (their ability to change directions on a dime while sprinting) also seems unlikely, given the amount of traction and power needed to suddenly send a couple tonnes hurling perpendicular to original direction.

sometimes i just imagine a squad of space marines running and leading a company of guardsmen... and then suddenly fall as the ground gave way beneath their enourmous weight, as the guardsmen watched the emperor's chosen all flounder around.

Eetion
03-09-2007, 21:08
As well as the marine skeleton being enlarged and stengthened, thus better muscular ability.

BlackLegion
03-09-2007, 21:15
Powerarmour has gravity dampers inbuilt. So a marine in powerarmour weights the same as without.

RedStompa
03-09-2007, 22:33
lets put it this way... if a marine stomped hard enough on the ground next to you (a human) your bones would be pulverized.

Kage2020
03-09-2007, 22:35
How strong are Marines? Well, the 'fluff' does offer us some answers if you are willing to believe them (note: not look for them! ;)). As some have already mentioned, out of their power armour they are four times stronger than a human (ish), and in it five times stronger. Of course, this increased strength in the armour is partially a product of the wargame once again, i.e. the Marines have to be the strongest, so they have to be the strongest when wearing power armour. I mean, how "tedious" would it be for Joe Schmoe Farmer to be able to put on similarly powered armour and have the same strength as a Marine. That would make the Marines less uber...

(If you hadn't guessed, I'm being sarcastic here. I rank that particular rule alongside some of Gav Thorpe's less stimulating game mechanicus, e.g. the Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom! (TM).)

Anyway, overall I would agree with many of the other posters here. Marines in the wargame are powered down for the purposes of Wargame Balance. (At the same time, the Eldar are also powered down in general, etc., etc.) I would, however, raise my voice in concert with icegreentea, who raises an incredibly valid point. That is, because they are considered so "uber" their actions often do not take into account the limitations of the Marines. "Hey, they're Marines" becomes one of the greatest hand-waves in consideration of the 40k background. :eyebrows:

Kage

Philip S
03-09-2007, 22:54
marines are both powered own in games, as well as kinda overpowered in fluff. there are some things that just arent physically possible, like rolling around with that giant backpack powerplant that marines tend to do all the time in fluff. also some of the agility of the marines (their ability to change directions on a dime while sprinting) also seems unlikely, given the amount of traction and power needed to suddenly send a couple tonnes hurling perpendicular to original direction.
Evidence of anti-grav/ inertia damping whiz-bangs?

Marines are supposed to have 'suspensors' as part of their armour.


sometimes i just imagine a squad of space marines running and leading a company of guardsmen... and then suddenly fall as the ground gave way beneath their enourmous weight, as the guardsmen watched the emperor's chosen all flounder around.
Perhaps the marines run across a rickety old bridge telling the guard to stay put, yet the guard are emboldened by the presence of the marines and follow regardless. Just as the marines reach the other side, the bridge collapses because the guard weigh too much. The marine look back and shake their heads.

“If only the Emperor had blessed them” (with huge suspensors!)

“They have been punished by their disobedience”

(The Emperor moves in mysterious ways (like John Cleese)

Philip

Kage2020
03-09-2007, 23:07
Evidence of anti-grav/ inertia damping whiz-bangs?
That's one approach, but it could also be evidence of just "heroic fantasy" writing. The cynic in me is tempted to go for that explanation rather than introducing increasingly complex - and sometimes contrived - explanations that allow every single leap of imagery (fancy, if you will) that the authors produce.


Perhaps the marines run across a rickety old bridge telling the guard to stay put, yet the guard are emboldened by the presence of the marines and follow regardless. Just as the marines reach the other side, the bridge collapses because the guard weigh too much. The marine look back and shake their heads.
:eyebrows:

Float like a butterfly, sting like a 900lb bee? Oh dear gods... ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
03-09-2007, 23:22
Float like a butterfly, sting like a 900lb bee? Oh dear gods... ;)

Kage

His hands most certainly can hit, what his eyes can't see, in this instance at least. :p

How much do they weigh then, roughly? Without armour that is. If you've got a marine who's basically heavily muscled and lets say, 6'8 or so bare foot then he's going to be a good 275lbs. Add to that all the extras in his chest, the heavier bones.. how heavy dya think?

If marines are 4 times stronger than a human, then I guess they're roughly Silver Back Gorilla stadard! :P

Philip S
03-09-2007, 23:28
That's one approach, but it could also be evidence of just "heroic fantasy" writing. The cynic in me is tempted to go for that explanation rather than introducing increasingly complex - and sometimes contrived - explanations that allow every single leap of imagery (fancy, if you will) that the authors produce.
Cynicism is for reality!

I mean, what’s the point of creating a fantasy (sci-fi or otherwise) if there is no fantasy in it?

Isn’t that the whole point of all those sci-fi gadgets is to allow use to cast off restrictions on our imagination?

Inventing a fantasy and then reverse engineering it to comply with reality, is basically taking the toys away (toy stealer!). You also end up with weird situations where we have all this tech but can’t use it just ’because’.

For example: In Star Trek why not build the engines in the holodeck? Why not use the transporters and replicator technology to regenerate the human body, or at least correct it, remove virus, cancers etc (maybe even memories by breaking the links – oh the possibilities!).

So why aren’t the marines, elite of the elite, rarest of the rare, heavily supported by the Adeptus Mechanicus, supreme angels of the Imperium, and symbol of all that is wonderful in the Imperium not get a lousy suspensor?

Even the Guard get a suspensor now and again, couldn’t the marine nick it off them? Would the Guard argue with an angel of warth? Me thinks not!

(Playing! :D)


Float like a butterfly, sting like a 900lb bee? Oh dear gods... ;)
I like that, all you need now is to take off the (inertia) dampeners ;)


How much do they weigh then, roughly?
Out of armour, around 780 pounds at 7’6”.

Philip

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 00:02
Add to that all the extras in his chest, the heavier bones.. how heavy dya think?
For me? Around 400lbs. I really don't buy into Phil's conceptualisation of how heavy Marines are, partially because of his concepts about "heroic proportions." I just don't find them particularly relevant.


I mean, what’s the point of creating a fantasy (sci-fi or otherwise) if there is no fantasy in it?
It's only a question of how much you can swallow, Phil. Increasingly I'm having to hang rather than suspend my disbelief of the 40k universe (to borrow from NH's signature from the BI forum). Using 'fantasy' as the excuse to justify anything is a part of the "heroic fantasy" genre that I personally wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Of course, if that's what you prefer? Well, then, cool... for you.


Isn’t that the whole point of all those sci-fi gadgets is to allow use to cast off restrictions on our imagination?
For me? No, not in the slightest. It is a means by which we can create the ability to contextually "cast off restrictions on our imagination." That is, there should be restrictions since, after all, it wouldn't be the 40k universe otherwise.


Inventing a fantasy and then reverse engineering it to comply with reality, is basically taking the toys away (toy stealer!).
Not really. It just means that you have to work within a given structure - a framework - rather than throwing together, well, anything.

I've seen this argument of yours before, Phil, and always it seems to come off as trying to justify the Image. Hey, though, it's cool. You actually get to produce it. I just disagree with most of it. As I'm sure you can find, though, I'm just one person in billions and some people consider my opinion as even less than that.


You also end up with weird situations where we have all this tech but can’t use it just ’because’.
There's nothing wrong with following through with the implications, though.


For example: In Star Trek why not build the engines in the holodeck?
Contrived, in-universe restrictions to the narrative. If you get rid of those then you get rid of much of what makes the GW 40k universe.


So why aren’t the marines, elite of the elite, rarest of the rare, heavily supported by the Adeptus Mechanicus, supreme angels of the Imperium, and symbol of all that is wonderful in the Imperium not get a lousy suspensor?
There's nothing wrong with a suspensor, Phil, but in traditional GW-hack it wouldn't be good to give them a suspensor belt.


I like that, all you need now is to take off the (inertia) dampeners
Oh god, I hope not.


Out of armour, around 780 pounds at 7’6”.
What Phil forget to say that this was just his interpretation.

Kage

Hellebore
04-09-2007, 00:04
Space Marines aren't human. They don't have to obey that law at all. They no longer even have a truly "human" frame. They're inhuman after the modifications. So, they can be as strong as the writer likes.

Er, that doesn't just apply to humans...

Inquisitor isn't a good representation of their strength either, because in it we have units that are WORSE than they are in 40k, and ones that are better.

There isn't a standard system of measurement in that game; everything is assigned statistics that have little to do with everything else.

For example, Artemis is a CAPTAIN, and has a WS and BS of ~75. An eldar RANGER in the game has a BS of 90. So we have a 40k captain (BS5) in INQ with a BS75, vs an eldar ranger (BS4) in INQ with a BS90.

Kroot are only slightly stronger than guardsmen, despite having the same strength as a marine in 40k.

Inquisitor is NOT a good example, because it has all these 'truths' turned on their heads. If a marine captain is a better shot in 40k, then he SHOULD be a better shot in INQ. However that does not hold true.


Also, no matter how much technofantasy you throw around, 40k still uses terms grounded in reality. Like genetic engineering, modified human, etc.

One thing that people seem to ignore, is that a space marine, like every other human is made of MEAT.

They aren't made of Primarchtanium.

Meat is as meat does.

Hellebore

ctsteel
04-09-2007, 01:14
you should trademark that term "Primarchtanium" Hellebore, before some bright spark at GW nicks it for the next rulebook....

...40K 5th edition Space Marine codex.....
"the last (and until now) forgotten step in the making of a true Adeptus Astartes, is to infuse their flesh with Primarchtanium, a substance whose concept and creation was attributed to the Emperor's efforts to create the original Primarchs, and until now has been sitting forgotten in an ancient databank next to the Golden Throne.
The rediscovery of this step has led to vastly more powerful marines, who are capable of running faster than a speeding bolter round, and can rip asunder even the toughest tanks. Trials of the new step have yielded such amazing pict-footage as a single marine tearing open a land raider with his bare hands. "

So Primarchtanium is the cause of Rending Marines - quick trademark it!
:p

DantesInferno
04-09-2007, 01:39
Er, that doesn't just apply to humans...

Inquisitor isn't a good representation of their strength either, because in it we have units that are WORSE than they are in 40k, and ones that are better.

There isn't a standard system of measurement in that game; everything is assigned statistics that have little to do with everything else.

For example, Artemis is a CAPTAIN, and has a WS and BS of ~75. An eldar RANGER in the game has a BS of 90. So we have a 40k captain (BS5) in INQ with a BS75, vs an eldar ranger (BS4) in INQ with a BS90.

Kroot are only slightly stronger than guardsmen, despite having the same strength as a marine in 40k.

Inquisitor is NOT a good example, because it has all these 'truths' turned on their heads. If a marine captain is a better shot in 40k, then he SHOULD be a better shot in INQ. However that does not hold true.

Or vice versa, of course. Why assume that the stats in 40k are more accurate than those in Inquisitor? They're both game abstractions, after all.

You could even argue that, given the much more finely detailed Inquisitor stats (0-200 rather than 0-10), Inquisitor's stats are intended to be more "realistic".

Feor
04-09-2007, 01:41
One thing that people seem to ignore, is that a space marine, like every other human is made of MEAT

Partially, their bones are made of a combination of bone and ceramics/plasteel. SO they problably weigh more than your average shaq whose grown to the size of a Space Marine (especially considering the additional mass added by things like their rib-plates).

And just to present the counterpoint to all this argument, the one place (perhasp) in fluff where a Guardman can outstrip a marine, in the third Caiphas Cain novel the good Commissar comes face to face wtih a World Eater chaos marine, and duels him to a standstill for a good few minutes until his aid could nail the traitor with a Meltagun. :p

ctsteel
04-09-2007, 01:49
I remember that part also, though I suspect Ciaphas is more the (lucky) exception here, since he is mentioned as a fine swordsman, but I think even then his agility in evading/parrying blows was the only thing keeping him alive and wouldn't have lasted much longer except for Jurgen's favourite toy kicking in.

Same applied when he went up against a Genestealer Patriarch, his quick-footedness and defensive swordsmanship kept him alive just long enough to allow his aide to cook it while it was distracted.

Hellebore
04-09-2007, 02:25
Or vice versa, of course. Why assume that the stats in 40k are more accurate than those in Inquisitor? They're both game abstractions, after all.

You could even argue that, given the much more finely detailed Inquisitor stats (0-200 rather than 0-10), Inquisitor's stats are intended to be more "realistic".

My point was that as there isn't a common set of stat 'patterns' in the 40k set of games, its really hard to use one or the other to justify anything. If space marines are better, then they should be better in every game.

As everything is portrayed differently in all types of 40k setting game, choosing one over the others as 'more accurate' is to me, a way to justify your position on something.

I could say "Kroot are hard core, they're as strong as a space marine" and only use 40k as an example. Or I could say "eldar rangers are better at shooting than a space marine CAPTAIN!" and only use INQ as an example.

Each set of rules supports a different position, so saying one is 'better' than the other creates a bias for no reason. More detailed rules do not necessarily make for more realism, but neither does more simplified rules.


As an example where 40k is superior to INQ: a lascannon cannot kill a marine outright in INQ, but it insta kills in 40k. In that instance an anti tank weapon has vapourised an infantry target.

The point is, game mechanics are a bad way to represent anything. A bolter should explode anybody it hits, as they do in stories, but in INQ they won't and in 40k they have a 66% chance of 'killing' a human in one shot.

Each set of rules is designed to represent the universe in a specific manner, so they end up being more, and less accurate.


Thus saying that a marine is soopadoopa tough and strong, and giving his strength of 200 in INQ as proof, ignores the fact that a bolter won't kill you in one shot, or that a lascannon won't kill a marine.

Taking the stat by itself as evidence isn't a good enough way of prooving anything, everything has to be put in context of the game itself.

And in the INQ game, an eldar ranger is a better shot than a marine captain, a kroot is as strong as a veteran guard (but a genestealer is stronger, but still weaker than a marine), a marine can put his fist through is own power armour, a lascannon won't kill a marine with a head shot, but 5 rocks doing 1 wound each WILL.

Contextually then, the stat is no where near as important as people claim it to be.

Hellebore

NeonDante
04-09-2007, 03:21
A reference was made to "movie marines." If it was the GW people who phrased it like that, then the marines are probably exadgerated in the fluff. A secret agent, like the CIA or MI6 for example, is almost certainly extremely skilled... but they have nothing on James Bond or Austin Powers. No martial artist will ever be as strong as the ones in Dragon Ball Z, no soldier can really fight like Marbo... er, Rambo.

My personal favorite piece of SM fluff is the story in the 3rd edition Ork codex. That's right, the one good piece of fluff in that book. The marines fight like hell, and are probably winning that particular fight, but the orks are making them pay for it. That's how I picture them. Elite, strong, disciplined... but not all-powerful. They are also more interesting that way, in my opinion. Having No Fear is a lot more impressive when you are (slightly) vulnerable to las fire.

Also, a thought... Cadia is a vital world in a vital system, the first line of defense against the forces of chaos. It's not a question of if the CSM will attack, it's a matter of WHEN. If the MEQs are so much stronger, then why is the world garrisoned mainly by guard? They would be butchered, according to the fluff descriptions of marines. So the Guard must be able to fight them, and have a good chance of winning, in some situations.

DantesInferno
04-09-2007, 03:46
Also, a thought... Cadia is a vital world in a vital system, the first line of defense against the forces of chaos. It's not a question of if the CSM will attack, it's a matter of WHEN. If the MEQs are so much stronger, then why is the world garrisoned mainly by guard? They would be butchered, according to the fluff descriptions of marines. So the Guard must be able to fight them, and have a good chance of winning, in some situations.

Well, the vast majority of the forces Chaos throws at Cadia are no doubt LatD style armies, filled with mutants and traitors from the EoT. When the Chaos Marines come out to play, they're not the mainstream troops involved. Of course, when they do fight, they more than likely do butcher any normal humans before them.....

The world of Cadia is garrisoned by Guard because the Imperium doesn't have the resources to have millions of Marines on hand to defend, and it wouldn't be very efficient if they did. They do of course have about 20 or so chapters who specifically guard the area around the Eye - the Adeptus Praeses chapters.

And you're right that the Movie Marines aren't meant to be an accurate representation of marines' real abilities - the article specifically says it represents the Marines as they would be in Imperial propaganda (and has wargear options like "Stunt doubles" just in case you didn't realise).

MadDogMike
04-09-2007, 06:29
One thing to keep in mind for tabletop marines if you want to compare them with their "superhuman" fluff equivalents is that "dead" on the tabletop doesn't always equal killed, it can also represent troops too wounded or otherwise incapable of continuing to fight. It's entirely likely most marines casualties are merely wounded; given how long it takes to create replacements, anything above moderate fatalities has to be uncommon or every Marine company would constantly be stopping to rebuild after every campaign. Fluff kinda supports this; I remember the initial Marine "disaster" when they attacked Taros in IA3 was a company being reduced to 40 "effectives" by an entire Tau Hunter Cadre. Considering how many of those losses were undoutably merely wounded, calling what was probably far less than 50% fatalities "terrible losses" that the whole chapter mourned puts the typical Marine casualty rate in perspective.

Feor
04-09-2007, 11:43
Also, a thought... Cadia is a vital world in a vital system, the first line of defense against the forces of chaos. It's not a question of if the CSM will attack, it's a matter of WHEN. If the MEQs are so much stronger, then why is the world garrisoned mainly by guard? They would be butchered, according to the fluff descriptions of marines. So the Guard must be able to fight them, and have a good chance of winning, in some situations.

Yes well, as has been proven many times in game, a Leman Russ or Basillisk can ruin a standard space marine squad's day pretty fricken quick. :p

NeonDante
04-09-2007, 13:39
Odd that the enemies rarely seem to have tanks in the space marine books. :P

And stunt doubles? That's great. I can just picture that.

Carnifex raises his weapon for the killing blow.

Director: Cut! Okay, Mike, head to makeup.

Brother Mike: I go in the Emperor's name.

Director:... right. STUNT DOUBLE!

Double: Er... this is all special effects, right?

Director: Sure kid, sure. Just, uh... try and nail this in one take, okay?

Lord Inquisitor
04-09-2007, 19:00
A few points:

I do believe the "Movie Marines" article was tongue-in-cheek, not actually meant to be realistic portrayal of the Astartes.

The stats for Marines in Inquisitor are ... odd, to say the least.
- A Marine does more damage with his bare fist, on average, than an Inquisitor with a power fist or axe
- Deathwatch Marines require suspensors to be able to move-and-fire heavy bolters in the background, but in Inquisitor a Marine could fire two heavy bolters in each hand with no loss of accuracy for weight.
- A Marine can take a maximum-damage hit from a plasma pistol or bolter to the head and would only be stunned.

You know how many organs Space Marines have that actually directly boost their strength? One - the biscopea. This works by secreting hormones that increase muscle density and mass. Their improved circulatory systems also impact this, but ultimately, Space Marines have much the same muscles as us.

So net result - Space Marines are superhumanly strong, but not as crazy strong as some people seem to think. This seems to gel well with the background. For example, in the novel Grey Knights, a Marine punched a sister. This broke her jaw, but it did not remove her head from her shoulders. So, think "peak of human fitness" and then a little bit - this is how strong they naturally are.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 19:37
On the bright side, at least Gav Thorpe offered up something. Whether we, the fans, agree with it is another matter entirely. I for one would have personally made them around 2-3 times stronger than a normal human (tending towards the twice as strong), with the armour itself making more of a difference. (To put that in GURPS, which I use to model the 40k universe, that would be more in the realm of ST14-17, rather than the currently required ST20.)

Then again, I have always had the somewhat heretical idea that if you could put a normal human into Marine armour and get them somehow to operate it (they cannot, I know), then they would be as strong as a Marine in the armour. Out of it, though? No way. In it, most definitely. ;)

That's just me, though, and one more of my little heresies.

Kage

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 19:51
They are worth about 10 normal men in most situations, hundreds of normal men in more specific situations.

I would guesstimate around 4-5 times as strong as a normal human being, if not stronger.

In terms of "strength" as in merit within and without, the Space Marines are hardly a drop in the bucket compared to the strength of the Imperial Guard.

The Imperial Guard is the hammer, the Marines are the Scalpel.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 20:40
Is it not hard to judge "worth" when it comes down to it, though? It's like the idea that someone defending their land is worth more than a mercenary, because they are invested in what they are defending. While they are lovely, pithy "sound bites" ultimately such phrases don't mean a great deal and, indeed, are akin to just using generic statistics -- they obfuscate reality. Ha! As much as 'reality' makes any difference with reference to the 40k universe. ;) (We all love it regardless...)

As always, interpretation is paramount. Just what do you want to do with the material a key question...

Kage

Lord Inquisitor
04-09-2007, 21:30
They are worth about 10 normal men in most situations, hundreds of normal men in more specific situations.

I would guesstimate around 4-5 times as strong as a normal human being, if not stronger.
Because in a straight fight between guard and marines, it is merely brute strength that counts, obviously. I don't see that their "worth" translates as "strength".

Personally, while I would agree that Marines might be slightly under-represented in 40K, it seems just about right.

Marines just don't fight like in 40K. They would never engage in a "fair fight" across an open battlefield unless there was no alternative. Of course, me taking twice as many points as you and launching a drop pod assault wouldn't be much of a game - I'd wager I'd be able to wipe you out with minimal casualties. That's exactly how Marines actually fight, and I think 40K would be a perfectly good simulation. Wouldn't be a very fun game, however.

If Marines run across an open battlefield towards guard, they get shot to pieces. About 1 Marine being worth 3 Guardsmen seems about right to me. This is equally what happens in the background - in Nightbringer, the Ultramarines attempt an actual full frontal assault against guard - they took horrific casualties.

Going back to pure strength, yeah, 4 or 5 times stronger than an "average" human seems about right. Bearing in mind that world champion weightlifters probably fall in that sort of range, depending what you set as the "average".

In Inquisitor terms, I'd set it around 100-120 before any bonuses for armour. That seems appropriate in comparison with real life, pseudo-biology of the astartes, damage bonus, weapon weights and game balance.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 22:51
Well, that sits right with me... Mostly. Still think that they're a tad on the strong side, but I can live with it. ;)

Of course, that's just me!

Kage

RedStompa
05-09-2007, 00:32
For example, in the novel Grey Knights, a Marine punched a sister. This broke her jaw, but it did not remove her head from her shoulders.

well was the marine tryig to KILL the sister? Marines are very careful when dealing with normal humans in friendly contact- they try not to crush a gaurdsmen's hand if hey gve them a handshake, and I belive the grey knight hit the sister more in frustration, then in the need to kill her. nor if he tried the sister's head would land across the room with a clunk!

NeonDante
05-09-2007, 01:21
Because in a straight fight between guard and marines, it is merely brute strength that counts, obviously. I don't see that their "worth" translates as "strength".

Personally, while I would agree that Marines might be slightly under-represented in 40K, it seems just about right.

Marines just don't fight like in 40K. They would never engage in a "fair fight" across an open battlefield unless there was no alternative. Of course, me taking twice as many points as you and launching a drop pod assault wouldn't be much of a game - I'd wager I'd be able to wipe you out with minimal casualties. That's exactly how Marines actually fight, and I think 40K would be a perfectly good simulation. Wouldn't be a very fun game, however.

If Marines run across an open battlefield towards guard, they get shot to pieces. About 1 Marine being worth 3 Guardsmen seems about right to me. This is equally what happens in the background - in Nightbringer, the Ultramarines attempt an actual full frontal assault against guard - they took horrific casualties.


Sounds about right to me. And I'd guess that most battles in history have been like that, one sided, I mean. How many famous battles in history have been the underdog succeeding against the odds? Just think of all the times they didn't. I doubt those would make it into legend. If I was facing an enemy with equal forces, I'd try and get some re-enforcements, or cut his supply lines, or something along those lines instead of just attacking directly, unless I had no other choice. But, like you said, uneven forces don't make for a very fun game. (special rules aside.)

Lord Inquisitor
05-09-2007, 02:09
well was the marine tryig to KILL the sister?
Without giving too much away as spoilers, yes, they were engaged in combat! I might take things out of context, but not that deviously... ;)

Doesn't really prove things by itself, I was just trying to link in a description from the background to my argument...

Supremearchmarshal
05-09-2007, 18:05
There's only a little over 1 million marines in the Imperium. A single hive world could raise tens of millions of guardsmen or more.
Marines are incredibly powerful. If they can take planets by themselves, they should be pretty much immune to stuff like lasguns. Their tactics help a lot, making the enemy unable to use heavy ordnance on them, but they really wouldn't be very impressive if all it would take to beat them was some IG special weapon squads. No, they would pretty much shrug off anything the guardsmen throw at them, obliterate some of their enemies and have the rest fleeing madly in fear. And they're very fast - in the "Deathwing" short story they can be surprised and draw their weapons and fire in the same time it takes guardsmen to just lower their weapons and fire. And almost immune to fatigue. And can survive losing vital organs and actually continue fighting etc.

A good portrayal (though still probably a bit underpowered) was in the old video game Chaos Gate - you could throw around chaos cultists like rag dolls, while only stuff like lascannons, multi-meltas and krak missiles could kill you in one hit (unless you're really unlucky).