PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Manipulating Chaos?



The_Chaos_Seer
28-08-2005, 11:46
Now, we all know that 50% of the 40K universe is one side manipulating another behind their backs. You know: The Eldar orchastrating events, the Slaneshi cults influencing human government, Tyranids infiltrating and altering government through Genestealer cults, whatever.

How often, however, can a faction worshipping one Chaos god manipulate another? For example: Khorne is apparently the strongest god, as he has the most followers (rage and blood lust being the most common of the four emotions). Then would be Nurgle, Tzeentch and then Slannesh do to her/his young age. But, this ranking, does it prevent manipulation? Would it be relativly possile to find a Tzeentch sorcerer manipulating events behind the back of some unsuspecting Khornate shield, or similar?

devolutionary
28-08-2005, 12:11
It has already been established and/or heavily rumoured that while Khorne may be the most powerful directly, Tzeentch is the glue that binds. Nurgle is a common factor throughout, and Slaanesh has his hands in everything too (blood lust, there is passiong there), but the stuff of true Chaos is the domain of the Changer of Ways. Kind of interesting how all these little elements stack up next to each other when you think about it.

Wiseman
28-08-2005, 12:28
id always assumed Tzeentch would be the most powerful as it can manipulate so easily

Kage2020
28-08-2005, 15:15
I would find it strange if the Chaos Gods did anything other than trying to manipulate or otherwise alter the course of events set in play by another Power. So, to answer your last question: Yes, I would find it entirely possible for a Tzeentchian sorcerer to be manipulating the events behind the back of some 'unsuspecting Khornate shield'.

One has to wonder, given the nature of the Chaos Pantheons, about formalised 'rules' of engagement between the Powers. Sound strange for 'chaos'? Well, so do million-year long Powers when one considers the description of the warp! ;) Indeed, abstraction of the Image of this ala the original artwork from the Realms of Chaos novels, more particularly Slaves to Darkness, would also be quite fascinating.

But ah well...

Kage

Bmaxwell
28-08-2005, 16:37
I think in Eye of terror thats what happnens A changer of ways manipulates a bloodthirster. worked until the Blood thirster found out and well it got nasty

Rabid Bunny 666
28-08-2005, 16:41
well, i picture tzeentch cults operating behind other chaos cults, and theat slaaneshii cults get into the positions of power because the higher up and richer citizens require more than posessions, so decide to marinate their nether rod to quote bloodhound gang

nurgle and khorne cults, i see, as being single role cults, causing as much chaos as humanly possible before burning out, wether by infighting or the purifying methods of the =][=

Kage2020
28-08-2005, 16:47
As long as you're not worshipping an 'enemy' Power, there is no reason that you cannot work together with the cults of other Powers.

Kage

Tastyfish
28-08-2005, 16:56
Not read the LC? They spend most of their time going after each other rather than anyone else and the Daemonic legions fight bizarre formalised battles in the warp (ranging from just infantry, no bladed weapons to not being allowed to kill anyone) that represent the conflict at the boundaries of the chaos power's realms.

Kage2020
28-08-2005, 17:13
Nope... Far too little cash (and far too expensive) to spend on a series of books of limited usefulness. But interesting to know that they've got some more abstract warp conflict, though it's a shame that it seems to be 'wargame inspired' rather than truly abstract (ala conflicts inspired from A Attanassio).

Kage

Brusilov
29-08-2005, 13:28
The question would not be, at least in my mind, so much when Chaos is manipulating Chaos, but rather when or if it is not. The very nature of the Ruinous Powers means any cooperation is temptative and temporary at best. Most of the time, the Chaos powers, and their servants, are at each other's throat, battling for domination over some world of the EoT or other, or simply playing games in which millions of beings are pawns.

The only times when Chaos shows a little unity is when Abaddon unleashes another of his Black Crusade. But IMHO his actions are nothing more than the result of an agreement between the Chaos Gods, and as soon as this agreement is broken (and it will at some point or other), it returns to a free-for-all. Those alliances are motivated only by narrow self-interest of the gods and if they see an advantage in breaking the covenant, they shall seize it.

Such is the nature of Chaos.

Kage2020
29-08-2005, 22:38
The irony, of coure, being that Chaos is still remarkably ordered... ;)

Kage

Iracundus
29-08-2005, 22:49
One interesting aside mentioned is that the daemonic armies of the same god battling each other can represent the god's internal thoughts, perhaps representing thinking over a particular choice of action.

Brusilov
29-08-2005, 22:54
Well, Kage, some have argued that order is a possible state of Chaos, and IMHO the conceptualisation given in the books how much to an effort of the authors (if you take the view of the people inside the fluff) to rationalised the concepts underpinning Chaos.

Wiseman
29-08-2005, 23:34
so chaos isnt really chaotic, it just says it is to sound big and powerful?

Kage2020
30-08-2005, 00:01
Well, Kage, some have argued that order is a possible state of Chaos, and IMHO the conceptualisation given in the books how much to an effort of the authors (if you take the view of the people inside the fluff) to rationalised the concepts underpinning Chaos.
I would have thought it was a natural growth of taking the 'fluff' and extending it to (laughably) logical conclusions. That's the way most of the fans tend to predict what GW are going to do before they do it! :D

Kage

Amon Ra
30-08-2005, 00:24
well, i picture tzeentch cults operating behind other chaos cults, and theat slaaneshii cults get into the positions of power because the higher up and richer citizens require more than posessions, so decide to marinate their nether rod to quote bloodhound gang

nurgle and khorne cults, i see, as being single role cults, causing as much chaos as humanly possible before burning out, wether by infighting or the purifying methods of the =][=

Liber Chaotica (sp?) goes so far as to state that tzeentch's cultists will even establish other gods cults if it suits their purpose to do so.

Wiseman
30-08-2005, 00:49
surely that would be pushing it, i cant imagine a tzeentchian sorcerer setting up a cult of nurgle there would have to be a good reason

Kage2020
30-08-2005, 01:12
Ah, yes, but what about Tzeentch itself? ;)

Kage

MvS
30-08-2005, 09:04
Indeed. Depending on who knows how many billions of considerations, Tzeentch may use his agents to start up thousands of Nurgle Cults, albeit indirectly.

Why? Depends on the time of the months I guess. Tzeentch is omniscient, absolutely wise and all-knowing and his plans are often in the extreme long term (read: Millennia).

Having said that, Tzeentch is also the desire and need for change and so is at the same time schizophrenic and neurotic in a way and on a scale that is simply beyond the ability of a mortal mind to comprehend. Maybe he sets up cults of other gods because he's insane.

That's the difficulty with the Big Four, especially Tzeentch, their motivations are often so vast and long term, and they themselves are so... well... chaotic that it's often difficult to know why they do anything they do.

:)

Brusilov
30-08-2005, 11:21
And there is also the fact IMHO that Tzeentch enjoys the game of plotting and scheming so much that he does not want it to end. He might allow himself to lose because for him the journey is more important than the destination.

One should also mention that the gods are prisoner of their own thought patterns. Tzeentch cannot help but plot, even if a straightfoward approach would have been better, he loses himself in his scheming. Khorne loses sight of his objective (the domination of Chaos) and slaughter and bloodshed becomes ends in themselves and so on...

IMHO only the Great Unnamable One of Chaos Undivided has the ability to think out of the box set by the emotions from which the Chaos Gods feed because he is all of Chaos. And even then, his entropic nature means he may do something on a whim.

MvS
30-08-2005, 18:08
Yes. I think you're bang on there Brus.

Brusilov
30-08-2005, 22:01
Always nice to see your thoughts are relatively akin to the much applauded author of the Liber Chaotica series ;) (Alright I'll stop the rounds of mutual self-congratulations here :rolleyes: :eyebrows: :D ).

Interestingly enough the whole point of this thing was too make Chaos somewhat less ordered (personnaly I like the idea of the Dukes of Chaos from Moorcock not bowing to a single emotion, they're much more chaotic and whimsical thus, but they could not rip off the concept entirely, could they).

I see Chaos as a gigantic mutli-faced stone. The Stone in its entirety is Chaos Undivided (or in fact the Great Unnamable One when it will finally manage to pull together the Big Four and all the others once and for all. The Black Crusades are times when His consciousness emerges to the fore, causing the temporary unity of Chaos as it does for its servants). Then you have the major faces, each of the Big Four, themselves divided into smaller aspects, each of the major daemonic forms.

Very structure for Chaos, I'll admit, but well here goes...

Kage2020
31-08-2005, 02:12
Hmmn... I remember this discussion a few years back on Portent, Brussie... <reminscing sigh>

But, yes, that's basically how I view it. Admittedly also slightly biased by Zelazny, but there we go.

Kage

Wiseman
31-08-2005, 11:16
Yes. I think you're bang on there Brus.
you suck up:p;)

Brusilov
01-09-2005, 14:19
Don't say that Diddimz, I take a lot of inspiration from MvS. I'm not the one who has written 300+ page on Chaos published by GW ;)
That we agree on something like that honours me, rather than him (in the sense that I agree with the reference on Chaos ;) ).

Philip S
01-09-2005, 14:35
The irony, of coure, being that Chaos is still remarkably ordered... ;)

Kage
I think thatís more because Chaos isnít chaos in a Moorcockian sense, the gods have move to being Ďemotioní based, and emotions are quite stable and predictable compared to pure chaos.

Of the gods I think Tzeentch is the most chaotic (and most evil), be even it is rather consistent.

Philip

Vaya
01-09-2005, 14:59
Is it legal to talk about copyrighted former uber-chaotic Chaos Gods here?

Or do we leave Malal out of the picture entirely? ;)

Nurglitch_PS
01-09-2005, 15:04
IMHO only the Great Unnamable One of Chaos Undivided (...)

Ehm? I've never seen such a thing in the fluff. Can you elaborate a bit?

Reinnon
01-09-2005, 15:22
malal the God of hatred, treated in much the same way as the "s" word.

malal is just one bad cookie when it comes to chaos

Brusilov
02-09-2005, 15:37
The concept of the Great Unnamable One is refered to in RoC Slaves to Darkness when they describe the four majors gods of Chaos. In passing, it is mentioned that all this gods could be aspects of a single Chaos God.
As is usual with I have elaborated a lot of things on a single sentence in a almost two decades old book :rolleyes:

MvS
02-09-2005, 23:31
you suck up
:p

Nyah to you.

:)