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Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 08:44
So... We all know how Slaanesh came to be, and the cataclysmic events that happened during his/her birth... But so far as I know there's no mention of any such events for the other big three, let alone how they came into existence, just a few scattered dates, IIRC... Now, Slaanesh's birth was obviously a large scale affair with the warp ripping open in the material galaxy and so forth, wiping out a great deal of the Eldar civilization, etc, etc, (which I suppose is somewhat fitting for the God of Excess ;)), and was caused by the Eldar indulging their senses and lusts far above and beyond what we mere humans are capable of even conceiving, again, perfectly fitting Slaanesh...

However, what do you guys think caused and/or was caused by the births of the other three? Personally, I'm tempted to think that the Eldar bear some responsibility for Tzeentch as well, due to their predisposition to the psychic, but they don't seem to fall into line with Tzeentch's base emotion, which from memory was hope, IIRC, whereas with Slaanesh the base emotion was desire/lust, which imho is a match... ;)

The same is true for Khorne and the Orks... Similar on the surface, as both are proponents of mindless slaughter, but while the Orks seem to enjoy the battles they fight purely for the sake of them, Khorne is driven by boundless rage, so again, the base emotions don't line up... I can't even think of an example for Nurgle accept perhaps the profound despair of the last Old Ones at their defeat and the death of their dreams for the galaxy, but that, from what I understand, far outdates the approximate timing of Nurgle's birth...

So, my fellow Warseerians, please feel free to wildly speculate based on anything at all about the births of the various Chaos Gods and the physical impacts these may have had on the universe...

Drogmir
04-09-2007, 08:48
Well everyone knows the truth is GW is lazy but want Fantasy and 40K to share the same gods or at least in name.

I think Tzeetch came into existence through those crazy human pskers that pop up everywhere.

For Khorne and Nurgle though it's anyone's guess.

Ardathair
04-09-2007, 08:57
I recall a section of the old Realms of Chaos books mentioning the births of the other three. No where near as spectacular as Slaanesh's, and centered around humanity.

I'll look it up when I get home, but here is what I remember occured at each of their births;

Nurgle: The Black Plague

Tzeentch: Political intregues in Europe, about the time of Machiavellie

Khorne: The Crusades

It has been a while since I read that section. I'll get back when I reread it.

P.S. Those books are from the 1980's so it is entirely possible that GW is going to rewrite the births to give them more umph.

Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 09:08
Well everyone knows the truth is GW is lazy but want Fantasy and 40K to share the same gods or at least in name.

Truth is subjective... ;)

In Fantasy they seem to have always existed and have much more of an eternal sense about them, but never really had a grip on the Warhammer World until the polar gates holding the power of Chaos back were broken... There's no reference to the birth of the Gods, where as in the 40k background, Slaanesh is quite obviously 'born' and is therefore bound within time, if not necessarily space...


I think Tzeetch came into existence through those crazy human pskers that pop up everywhere.

Various bits and pieces I've googled say Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle were born/became fully conscious between 8000BCE and 1500AD... This is apparently in one of the Realms of Chaos books... But humanity is only supposed to have evolved psyker abilities around M25.



Nurgle: The Black Plague

Tzeentch: Political intregues in Europe, about the time of Machiavellie

Khorne: The Crusades


I had a feeling this might be the case... Frankly I find this entirely unsatisfying... ;)

Surely there's a little more depth to it... To be honest, I feel like they're all a bit soft and lacking in comparison to Slaanesh's creation... Especially considering they are all essentially based around the exploits of various European cultures, not taking into account the rest of the world... The obvious exception being of course the Black Plague, which did kill a good third of the planet, but even then, I think humanity's population would surely have been far too small to spawn a warp entity fueled by emotion when you think about the comparative size of the Eldar civilization at the time...

When Black Roses Bloom
04-09-2007, 11:00
I'll just say my oppinions and thoughts from all the fluff about the chaos gods I've read, and from what the Books of Chaos say about them.

First of all, let me say something here: Khorne is The Blood God of the human race. Gork and Mork are Ork deities. I don't think the orks would have something more sophisticated than blind rage and frenzy whaaaghs, for Khorne is not only bloodthirsty and the god of carnage, he is also the god of Martial Pride, and he shuns cowards and tricksters. As in the CSM codex says: From the very moment man travelled the oceans of the old world and set foot upon new lands, when he saw his fellow man, his words were not of brotherly love and sympathy, they were bloodthirsty shouts of war. That is mans saddest story: That in a galaxy where in every corner enemies try to rip him appart, he's fighting his fellow brother. And that is the embodiment of Khorne. More with the other colors of chaos in a while :chrome:

DantesInferno
04-09-2007, 11:25
It's worth pointing out that the (much, much more recent) Necron Codex gives a much more plausible explanation for the creation of the Chaos Gods: they were created during the War in Heaven between the Old Ones and their creation races on one side, against the C'tan and Necrontyr on the other.

The unprecedented turmoil caused in the Warp by the emotions of the Young Races (like the Eldar) caused swirling vortices of warp power to coalesce, creating the Chaos Gods.

This is an infinitely more credible explanation than the idea that they were created by humanity during the middle ages, which at that stage was on a tiny backwater planet in the galactic Eldar Empire - which do you think was generating more warp-influence?

What is plausible, though, is that the Chaos Gods began to take on a more specifically human character after humanity's appearance on the galactic stage. To argue that they were *created* then is more of a semantic thing, though.

charlie_c67
04-09-2007, 11:55
Surely Nurgle and Khorne were before then, death and decay have been around from the start. As have anger and war. But then again I guess decadence and lust have as well.

When Black Roses Bloom
04-09-2007, 12:08
Surely Nurgle and Khorne were before then, death and decay have been around from the start. As have anger and war. But then again I guess decadence and lust have as well.

An image came into my mind as I read these words:

Death and Decay (Khorne and Nurgle) are the primarch feelings/gods, from the dawn of the races and thend Decadence and Lust (either being for power or depraved/sexual lust) being somewhat advanced turmoils in the parallel universe called "The Warp". Perhaps this could be used as time stamp event in the Chaos Genesis timeline: The two raw elder chaos gods and the two younger (with She Who Thirsts/The Prince Of Excess being the youngest) the more advanced feelings/gods of the Empyrian.

Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 12:28
The unprecedented turmoil caused in the Warp by the emotions of the Young Races (like the Eldar) caused swirling vortices of warp power to coalesce, creating the Chaos Gods.

This is an infinitely more credible explanation than the idea that they were created by humanity during the middle ages, which at that stage was a tiny backwater planet in the galactic Eldar Empire - which do you think was generating more warp-influence?

This I like a lot more than the middle ages answer. It seems much bigger, much less human-centric, which is far more in keeping with the pre-Great Crusade 40k universe, at least in my mind...


What is plausible, though, is that the Chaos Gods began to take on a more specifically human character after humanity's appearance on the galactic stage.
Agreed... Perhaps even the Emperor's sudden emergence pointed them towards humanity's potential, and so they began to fashion themselves to suit...


Surely Nurgle and Khorne were before then, death and decay have been around from the start. As have anger and war. But then again I guess decadence and lust have as well.

That would depend on the Warp-signature of the Races involved... For example, a billion Tau simultaneously fearing death would probably be far outweighed by a few hundred Eldar, due to their unequal presence in the Warp... It could be theorized that whatever races before the Eldar simply didn't have a strong enough stamp, or were too few to make enough of an impact to form a 'God', per se...

ctsteel
04-09-2007, 13:29
the eldar and the orks both created their own gods for war etc - so why would they give also rise to khorne? wasn't khaine their god of war?

Russell's teapot
04-09-2007, 13:49
Agreed... Perhaps even the Emperor's sudden emergence pointed them towards humanity's potential, and so they began to fashion themselves to suit...

I like this idea.

To me, the great crusade was the catalyst for our perception of the Chaos Gods. I've always thought that the Emperor's 'Primarch Project' was enabled/ helped along by the Dark Gods. Perhaps His bargaining with the Dark Gods, caused them to realise the potential of a backwater planet in the spiral arm of the Galaxy & agreed to help the Emperor with the Primarch Project (although ultimately tricking him by causing the Heresy which has strengthed their position immesurably).

The Gods saw humanity as a tool to be able to break free of their Immaterial Bondage, hence the Primarchs & the humano-centricity of the Chaos Powers today...

The previous billion or so years of history created the Dark Gods, but they look like they do now because of the last 10,000 years since the Heresy.

Hive Mind 33
04-09-2007, 14:18
the eldar and the orks both created their own gods for war etc - so why would they give also rise to khorne? wasn't khaine their god of war?

This is true the Eldar have Khaine for the god of war so im sure that would have blocked Khrone from existence. And the Eldar live extermly long lives so im sure Nurgle is out. I think in the Codex it states that humans gave rise to the big 3

Russell's teapot
04-09-2007, 14:27
This is true the Eldar have Khaine for the god of war so im sure that would have blocked Khrone from existence. And the Eldar live extermly long lives so im sure Nurgle is out. I think in the Codex it states that humans gave rise to the big 3

The Khaine/Khorne dichotomy (ooh hark at me!) is interesting & one I've never really understood - I'd like to find out more.

I do have trouble with the humanocentric view though. Before the great crusade (although arguabley the golden age), Human presence in the galaxy was akin to that of the Hrud now. I can't see that humans could make that much difference.

Of course Nurgle could have sprung from the poor, desolate Necrontyr. However, I'd like to think that most of the humanoid races in the galaxy suffer the same mental 'disturbances' as humans - causing the same Gods to arise/ grow stronger no matter the race involved. Meaning that we've got millions of different races all pushing towards their creation. The only reason they appear so 'human' now is due to Humanity's vast presence in the galaxy.

Just to put my point on the Orky Gods - I'm not sure I believe them as distinct from the 4 Dark Gods, merely that the Orks Worship them as different entities (I'll throw that the Starchild is probably in the mix too for completness although I doubt the Orks would get much out of Him).

Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 14:33
I like this idea.
I've always thought that the Emperor's 'Primarch Project' was enabled/ helped along by the Dark Gods. Perhaps His bargaining with the Dark Gods, caused them to realise the potential of a backwater planet in the spiral arm of the Galaxy & agreed to help the Emperor with the Primarch Project (although ultimately tricking him by causing the Heresy which has strengthed their position immesurably).
I struggle with this, tbh... To me, the Emperor was always distant from the immaterial, and always tried to encourage humanity to follow suit, hence the genetic experimentation on the Primarchs rather than direct Chaotic mutation... For the record, it's my belief that the wings, cyclopean eye, etc, happened in transit, not as a result of the Emperor doing any deals with the Dark Gods...



The Gods saw humanity as a tool to be able to break free of their Immaterial Bondage, hence the Primarchs & the humano-centricity of the Chaos Powers today...

Yes. Nicely put. From what I can tell, aside from the odd cult on some Imperial world, prior to the Heresy, there wasn't any real concentrated worship of Chaos... Sure, they might've possessed some Orks or something along the way, but nothing worthy of them... Cue Horus, and we're away... Suddenly there's 9 demi-gods, literally millions of super warriors, regiments of Imperial Guard, all their support staff and so on... The Gods have their missionaries...

Russell's teapot
04-09-2007, 14:50
I struggle with this, tbh... To me, the Emperor was always distant from the immaterial, and always tried to encourage humanity to follow suit, hence the genetic experimentation on the Primarchs rather than direct Chaotic mutation... For the record, it's my belief that the wings, cyclopean eye, etc, happened in transit, not as a result of the Emperor doing any deals with the Dark Gods...

I agree that all these things occured in transit. However, I think the Emperor required more than simple science to greate the Primarchs. I'm preaching from a Religeous POV here (something I abhor in the real world), so there probably isn't much of a meeting point between us. However, I understand your position & I'm not discounting it out-of-hand.

Ardathair
04-09-2007, 15:23
Found the blurb. Realms of Chaos, The Lost and the Damned, page 176. One short stinking paragraph for all three chaos gods.

"Khorne was the first.....and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood.....Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents.....By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these powers had awoken..."

GW wasn't as specific as I recalled, those were just my impressions of the events in my earlier post.

Hopefully GW will revisite the births of these three sometime.

Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 15:42
Of course Nurgle could have sprung from the poor, desolate Necrontyr.
I'm not sure about this one... To me, the C'Tan couldn't have interacted with the Necrontyr as much as they did if the Necrontyr's souls held much of a presence in the Warp, being said Warp is horribly distasteful to them... Hence, not much chance of them having that much of an impact... The races of the Old Ones, such as the Slaan and the Eldar, however, definitely could, even perhaps the Old Ones themselves... I think I alluded to what is quickly becoming my current theory on Nurgle somewhere above... That he was born out of the collective despair of the Old Ones and their creation over the Old One's defeat/departure...


However, I'd like to think that most of the humanoid races in the galaxy suffer the same mental 'disturbances' as humans - causing the same Gods to arise/ grow stronger no matter the race involved. Meaning that we've got millions of different races all pushing towards their creation. The only reason they appear so 'human' now is due to Humanity's vast presence in the galaxy.

Yep... I think this is pretty much it... As I just posted in another thread, I'm of the opinion that Mankind, despite everyone else's best efforts, is its own worst enemy... Even through the DAoT as humanity rose into prominence, the Chaos Gods would've shifted their gaze, realizing humanity's potential to fall, sowing their seeds, separating the systems with Warp storms and fostering cults on different worlds... I can see it now! ;)


I agree that all these things occured in transit. However, I think the Emperor required more than simple science to greate the Primarchs. I'm preaching from a Religeous POV here (something I abhor in the real world), so there probably isn't much of a meeting point between us. However, I understand your position & I'm not discounting it out-of-hand.

Let's agree to not... Can't have this turning into another God-forsaken Emperor thread... ;)

Russell's teapot
04-09-2007, 16:16
@ Fatwa: I like your take on Nurgle - something I hadn't thought of before! I'd always seen Nurgle as the oldest of the 4 (I must have read that somewhere), being call of the grieving at the death/ illness of a loved one etc... So it fits really well for me.

Khorne & Tzeench must be of a similar age, although Khorne's war spirit may come before the machiavellian Tzeench. However, would Khaine have pre-dated Khorne? I really don't know about Khaine, were all the Old One's progeny involved, or just the Eldar?

Slannesh we know about.

I agree in keeping this clear of the Emperor!

@ Ardathair: As you can see from the above, I've completely moved away from the 'old cannon' as really it doesn't fit with 40k nowadays & is completley against my common sense (if I have any!). The Realm of Chaos books in this day and age speak to me as the remberances of an aged inquisitor - driven insane by what he has seen & trying to interpret his deluded visions. Some of it is true, but it's hard to say what (interstingly the new books of chaos are written in a similar vein).

Chilltouch
04-09-2007, 16:27
I'm guessing their births - and their respective warp storms - are in other galaxies completely. Khorne was probably born in a galaxy where there was a war similar to the one taking place in 40K, except longer ago. Constant hatred and constant war, enough of it to create a God.

I wouldn't make surprised if there was some sort of inter-stellar plague that consumed a galaxy, causing all-out despair and the creation of Nurgle.

And then, there was a society that kept on getting better and better, and wanted to get better and better, getting more and more and more advanced and hoping for so much more... And, it just exceeded its potential and created Tzeentch.

ryng_sting
04-09-2007, 17:45
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle achieved full consciousness some time after the War in Heaven, long before humans took their first steps on the evolutionary ladder. Khorne is the eldest, followed by Tzeentch, then Nurgle.

Khaine pre-dates Khorne, since he achieved full consciousness during the War in Heaven. He was the product of the OO's investment in the Eldar and their ability to create sentient weapons (gods).

charlie_c67
04-09-2007, 21:36
I thought that Nurgle was the oldest though, hence the moniker grandfather.

Gdolkin
05-09-2007, 01:37
Anyone know what the Liber Chaotica say about it?

Captain_Ardias
05-09-2007, 02:03
We already know that other races have their chaos gods (gork, mork, khain ect...) So what if Khorne/Nurgle/tzeentch are just humanity's manifestations of the warp? It would easily fit the fluff we already know, and would mean that as humanity grew, so did the 3 big chaos powers to where they are now as the greatest of everyone -since we also know there is a pantheon, with many different levels of power and dedications to different powers in the warp.

With how many humans that are now in the galaxy, it would be easy to think that not only have they conquered many of the planets, but also the warp. It would also explain why the warp has so many effects on the unprepared human mind...

Hive Mind 33
05-09-2007, 03:25
[QUOTE=Captain_Ardias;1879973]We already know that other races have their chaos gods (gork, mork, khain ect...) So what if Khorne/Nurgle/tzeentch are just humanity's manifestations of the warp? It would easily fit the fluff we already know, and would mean that as humanity grew, so did the 3 big chaos powers to where they are now as the greatest of everyone -since we also know there is a pantheon, with many different levels of power and dedications to different powers in the warp.

Thats pretty much it. from the warp the other races made their gods. Eldar had their gods. the Orks have theirs. You guys see to act like Humans have no right to have their own gods from the warp. in the chaos codex it states Khorne is living embodiment of every hate fulled blow, ever pointless murder of the HUMAN RACE [/COLOR]

Nurgel-Death is the only constant in the realm of MEN

Tzeentch- is does not say much other that HUMAN PUPPETS
also the Eldar had the Laughing god so tthey already had a maifestion of plotting and such.

Lord Fatwa
05-09-2007, 04:05
Anyone know what the Liber Chaotica say about it?
Nothing terribly useful, from memory... It's all mostly done from a Fantasy viewpoint, where they all seem to be very, very old... Enemies of the Old Ones from before the Old Ones came to the Warhammer World...


We already know that other races have their chaos gods (gork, mork, khain ect...) So what if Khorne/Nurgle/tzeentch are just humanity's manifestations of the warp? It would easily fit the fluff we already know, and would mean that as humanity grew, so did the 3 big chaos powers to where they are now as the greatest of everyone -since we also know there is a pantheon, with many different levels of power and dedications to different powers in the warp.

With how many humans that are now in the galaxy, it would be easy to think that not only have they conquered many of the planets, but also the warp. It would also explain why the warp has so many effects on the unprepared human mind...

I hadn't actually considered this, mostly I think because I'd never made the connection of Gork, Mork, Khaine, Vaul etc being "Chaos" Gods, rather to me they were always just 'Gods'... It makes a good deal of sense I suppose... :)


You guys see to act like Humans have no right to have their own gods from the warp.

Not at all... Personally I think that while they are currently drawing a great deal of power from humanity, that they can in fact carry on without them... Not necessarily giving way to other race's versions of themselves, for example Khaine giving way to Khorne (following the above example), but Khorne carrying on as Khorne, Nurgle as Nurgle, Tzeentch as Tzeentch and so on... We know Slaanesh is pretty much the same to the Eldar and humanity, but surely if the other three were only getting their power in the Warp from humanity, and Slaanesh was getting equivalent worship from men, plus the extra attention from the Crone World Eldar, and whatever tokens the Dark Eldar offer (which I'm NOT calling worship by the way, I just remember reading something somewhere...), then surely Slaanesh would hold the most influence in the Warp...

khorne666
05-09-2007, 05:44
Reading the new chaos SM book on the background for the daemon princes it say that khorne was the first to "awaken", I've always taken this to mean he existed before the worlds begining and just needed enough power to break out of his coma-type-thing in the warp, perhaps the other three gods had births like slaanesh's in a previous timeline (in a similar mannner to my belief (not sure if it is cannon) that the fantasy timeline is a continuation of after 40K timeline, with the fall of the old ones being the end of the 40K world).

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 06:29
The old Realms of Chaos books did say that Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle are derived from humanity. Their order of awakening as given by the RoC was Khorne as the oldest, followed by Tzeentch as human society began to organize and grow more complex, followed by Nurgle as human population got large enough to have epidemics. Nowhere does it say they were huge vast entities from the start. More likely they were minor beings that grew in size as humanity itself grew and spread across the galaxy, displacing the warp entities of other races.

Slaanesh by contrast is an Eldar warp god that has chosen to market itself now to the more plentiful humans, though retains a preference for the more individually powerful Eldar soul. Eldar souls are few and far between compared to the teeming masses of humanity from which to feed from. Slaanesh is said to be the least of the Big 4 Chaos gods because he is the youngest and the other gods have a head start in gathering souls. Whether Slaanesh can appreciably catch up or overtake is as yet unknown.

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 06:43
The old Realms of Chaos books did say that Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle are derived from humanity. Their order of awakening as given by the RoC was Khorne as the oldest, followed by Tzeentch as human society began to organize and grow more complex, followed by Nurgle as human population got large enough to have epidemics. Nowhere does it say they were huge vast entities from the start. More likely they were minor beings that grew in size as humanity itself grew and spread across the galaxy, displacing the warp entities of other races.

Slaanesh by contrast is an Eldar warp god that has chosen to market itself now to the more plentiful humans, though retains a preference for the more individually powerful Eldar soul. Eldar souls are few and far between compared to the teeming masses of humanity from which to feed from. Slaanesh is said to be the least of the Big 4 Chaos gods because he is the youngest and the other gods have a head start in gathering souls. Whether Slaanesh can appreciably catch up or overtake is as yet unknown.

It's basically a terminology thing, whether you think Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were pre-existing warp vortices which merely changed character as humanity grew upon the galactic stage (due to their predominant emotions now being of a human flavour) or whether they were new beings which replaced the older ones of other races - it's effectively the same thing, as far as I can see. The latter view boils down to saying that there were ancient warp gods which played pretty much exactly the same roles as the current Chaos Gods do, but just went under different names.

For me, it's clearer to just say that they were pre-existing ones which changed in character as humanity rose in prominence, as this is just a less dramatic version of Slaanesh's change in focus following the Eldar Fall.

The idea that the Chaos Gods were predominantly human-flavoured (on the first view), or that the human-centred versions of the Chaos Gods (on the second) were substantial warp entities during the Middle Ages, though, is completely absurd. At this stage, there are only a few million humans in the galaxy, compared to billions upon billions of Eldar and other sentient species - why on Earth (bad pun) would humanity have such an impact on the warp scene?!

Russell's teapot
05-09-2007, 08:09
I hadn't actually considered this, mostly I think because I'd never made the connection of Gork, Mork, Khaine, Vaul etc being "Chaos" Gods, rather to me they were always just 'Gods'... It makes a good deal of sense I suppose...

I'd agree that all the above are Chaos Gods, however, I'm not sure what magnitude. I see Gork & Mork being diffuse representations of the Big 4 (although possibly not Slannesh, as the Orks pre-date Slannesh - although s/he may have become part of the mix later).

I'm unsure about the Eldar Gods. I think Khaine is separate from Khorne, although I'm hazy about where one starts and the other stops, or even if they are separate! As for the others, they don't seem to neatly fit into one or other of the Big 4. Either thay are as Gork & Mork above, or they are minor Gods in their own right. If they are 'their own Gods' they probably only use the souls of Eldar - hence why they weren't that powerful pre-fall & are mostly irrelevant now (as the Eldar don't release souls to the warp often & Slannesh often gets there first!).


Khaine pre-dates Khorne, since he achieved full consciousness during the War in Heaven. He was the product of the OO's investment in the Eldar and their ability to create sentient weapons (gods).

Wow, this is news to me - that's some fine stuff! Where can I lay my hands on these little gems, there must be loads of cool stuff with it? Please don't say Slaves to Darkness or I'll cry:cries:



I...snip... The latter view boils down to saying that there were ancient warp gods which played pretty much exactly the same roles as the current Chaos Gods do, but just went under different names.

For me, it's clearer to just say that they were pre-existing ones which changed in character as humanity rose in prominence, as this is just a less dramatic version of Slaanesh's change in focus following the Eldar Fall.

The idea that the Chaos Gods were predominantly human-flavoured (on the first view), or that the human-centred versions of the Chaos Gods (on the second) were substantial warp entities during the Middle Ages, though, is completely absurd. At this stage, there are only a few million humans in the galaxy, compared to billions upon billions of Eldar and other sentient species - why on Earth (bad pun) would humanity have such an impact on the warp scene?!

Agree with all the above. Humanity was a player so minor at the creation of the Gods, that they didn't even exist for most of it! The view 'we' see of the Gods is due to Humanity's vast presence in the galaxy now.

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 08:59
Read my post more carefully. I wrote that humanity created gods but they were minor entities that grew over time as humanity itself grew over time. There are many many minor entities in the warp and there could very well be nascent future major gods formed from other races, that are merely small potatoes right now due to humanity's dominance. People keep getting the mistaken idea that humanity spawned 3 fully formed at full power Chaos gods. Also nowhere was it ever said that Chaos gods have to be formed only during the War in Heaven.

It is perfectly reasonable to suppose humanity formed 3 minor gods that eventually grew to dominate the warp just as humanity grew to dominate the galaxy. As the human population grew and the available pool of souls grew, so did the trio of Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. It is also canonical that the Emperor for much of human history fought behind the scenes to try and curb the rising power of the Chaos gods, without much success.

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 09:18
Read my post more carefully. I wrote that humanity created gods but they were minor entities that grew over time as humanity itself grew over time. There are many many minor entities in the warp and there could very well be nascent future major gods formed from other races, that are merely small potatoes right now due to humanity's dominance. People keep getting the mistaken idea that humanity spawned 3 fully formed at full power Chaos gods. Also nowhere was it ever said that Chaos gods have to be formed only during the War in Heaven.

Well, as I pointed out in my previous post, the difference mainly comes down to nomenclature - whether you call the warp-vortex of angry emotion "Khorne" before humanity comes along, or only afterwards. One odd consequence of your way of labelling it is that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle became major warp gods at exactly the same time as Slaanesh (because that's when humanity took over from the Eldar as the dominant warp-emotion generating species in the galaxy), which seems odd considering Slaanesh is always described as younger than the other gods. But to reiterate, I don't think there's much argument over substance going on.


It is perfectly reasonable to suppose humanity formed 3 minor gods that eventually grew to dominate the warp just as humanity grew to dominate the galaxy. As the human population grew and the available pool of souls grew, so did the trio of Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. It is also canonical that the Emperor for much of human history fought behind the scenes to try and curb the rising power of the Chaos gods, without much success.

For some given value of "canonical". As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the Necron Codex has a different view of events, and the background you're referencing is 20+ years old.

Russell's teapot
05-09-2007, 09:34
I'm with Dante on this one.

If we take Khorne, I doubt that it came to power as a direct response to Humans hitting each other with rocks, dropping bombs, or gaining ASBOs for beating up old people. It's far more likely that it started out during/slightly after/just before the War in Heaven. Other species have been doing the same for millenia. Khorne has been around since.

So as a life history:
One sensient being bashes another on the head - a warp vortex of emotion is born
The process repeats from this sensient race & thousands of other around the galaxy - the vortex continues to grow & gains conciousness eventually
One sencient race gains dominance, the warp being morphs to their tastes in order to get the most emotion - they call the being 'Bob'
Another race gains dominance, again the warp being morphs - this race calls it 'Brian'
....skip a few steps...
Another race gains dominance, again the warp being (probably a God by now due to it's size & the ever-presence of rage) morphs - this race calls it 'Fluffy killing death lord'
Another race gains dominance, again the warp being morphs - this race calls it Khaine
Humanity gains dominance, again the God morphs - we call Him Khorne

The reason that it is so humano-centric is not because it was created by Humans, but because it has adapted to gain the most emotion/souls that it can.

That's how I see the process happening anyway...

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 09:56
Except Khaine and Khorne are not the same. They are two separate entities. One is fragmented and in the material universe. The other is not. The two also had two different personalities and agendas, despite their superficial similarities.

I have never seen why people keep trying to "universalize" the gods. Is it some influence of monotheism in modern culture that tries to say there can only be one god for each ideal? Just as there were many many sun gods across human history, there are many racial gods of war or whatnot across the galaxy. Trying to universalize them is trying to draw connections purely based on one or two points of similarity, tantamount to trying to say Apollo and the bloodthirsty Aztec sun god are one and the same just because they are sun gods, while neglecting all the other aspects of them that are different. It is as ridiculous as for example saying the Deceiver was subtle and used tricks, and so did the Laughing God, and so did the "Joker" from Batman and then trying to say all 3 are one and the same just because they had a few similar points. The simpler path is to accept they are separate entities, with the same godly portfolio.

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 10:08
Except Khaine and Khorne are not the same. They are two separate entities. One is fragmented and in the material universe. The other is not. The two also had two different personalities and agendas, despite their superficial similarities.

Of course they're not identical, but they're certainly not completely separate either. Similar (though not identical) emotions fuel them both.


I have never seen why people keep trying to "universalize" the gods. Is it some influence of monotheism in modern culture that tries to say there can only be one god for each ideal? Just as there were many many sun gods across human history, there are many racial gods of war or whatnot across the galaxy. Trying to universalize them is trying to draw connections purely based on one or two points of similarity, tantamount to trying to say Apollo and the bloodthirsty Aztec sun god are one and the same just because they are sun gods, while neglecting all the other aspects of them that are different. It is as ridiculous as for example saying the Deceiver was subtle and used tricks, and so did the Laughing God, and so did the "Joker" from Batman and then trying to say all 3 are one and the same just because they had a few similar points. The simpler path is to accept they are separate entities, with the same godly portfolio.

The difference being that in 40k, it's important which emotion is fueling the god, because it's the emotions which cause the disturbances in the Warp which swirl around and create gods. It's not just because they happen to have similar names or something.

Russell's teapot
05-09-2007, 10:16
Except Khaine and Khorne are not the same. They are two separate entities. One is fragmented and in the material universe. The other is not. The two also had two different personalities and agendas, despite their superficial similarities.

I'll take your word for that, I'm not that familiar with the Eladar gods, but I think my genaral idea stands up.


I have never seen why people keep trying to "universalize" the gods. Is it some influence of monotheism in modern culture that tries to say there can only be one god for each ideal? Just as there were many many sun gods across human history, there are many racial gods of war or whatnot across the galaxy. Trying to universalize them is trying to draw connections purely based on one or two points of similarity, tantamount to trying to say Apollo and the bloodthirsty Aztec sun god are one and the same just because they are sun gods, while neglecting all the other aspects of them that are different. It is as ridiculous as for example saying the Deceiver was subtle and used tricks, and so did the Laughing God, and so did the "Joker" from Batman and then trying to say all 3 are one and the same just because they had a few similar points. The simpler path is to accept they are separate entities, with the same godly portfolio.

We're in danger of treading into the Religeous debate of:
"I have faith, therefore it is true. It is true because I have faith".
I'm just as guilty as you, so please don't take offence:p

I'd argue (if I were religeously minded) that a single sun-god was worshipped differently by different people.

However, we are debating over a universe where Gods are tangible & real beings which affect the material universe. I don't believe that in a galaxy of millions of sensient races over millions of years, the only one with a lasting mark on the universe is Humanity - it's just too Humano-centric for me (although I do take the counter point that 40k IS humano-centric).

What we are doing is trying to find a justification for the question:
"Why do the Chaos Gods mirror the emotions of humanity?"
I doubt that we'll find the answer, as such a thing is unlikely to be known (unless GW tell us & then one of us will just say "but they're wrong!"). I don't think that we'll find a meeting point between us - we'll just have to agree to disagree - but that's all fun games (only in a fictional universe though - right?).

ctsteel
05-09-2007, 10:23
re the issue of khorne/nurgle/tzeentch being created by humans (or not depending on your point of view): how many of the other races
A) refer to them in their history/language by those names before we came along, and
B) worship them, or have a history laced with cults dedicated to them or whatever?

I've not really encountered info on other races doing this eg an eldar blood coven of khorne, or an ork cult worshipping nurgle, so I'm curious if this has been illustrated in the past. And I mean a full on cult from within that society, not just the odd group of orks now who have run across nurgles followers and been tainted.
Even the dark eldar seem to primarily worship/fear slaanesh which they created.

So - what influence have the other races actually had on these entities? To me it seems more likely that (as per the existing fluff) the human emotions created these particular chaos beings, and as others have said these grew in power and influence as humanity spread through the galaxy.

Quite possibly other aspects existed for war, disease, hope amongst other alien races, but as they were exterminated by the humans in their crusades pre- and post-dark age, those beings would have been reduced to warp shadows and possibly consumed by the newly emergent humano-centric powers, effectively amalgamating them into one powerful entity of death/decay for instance.

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 10:29
GW have said though why the Chaos gods "mirror" humanity's emotions: they are human gods. Even the Eldar born Slaanesh has switched over to a mostly human soul diet. The odd group of xenos consumed by the Big 4 is miniscule compared to the vast regular intake of human souls.

The human Chaos gods aren't the only gods to have made a lasting mark. They are just the current batch of gods on the galactic stage. They are just one in a succession of pantheons. The Eldar gods played their role, before being ousted by the newly birthed Slaanesh. If humanity fell from power, I would expect the existing Chaos gods to wither to a more minor role if they were unable to establish themselves on a new diet of souls from whatever new emergent race replaced humanity as the galaxy's dominant race.

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 10:49
GW have said though why the Chaos gods "mirror" humanity's emotions: they are human gods.

Surely the causation is the other way around? They're "human" gods because the bulk of the emotions they're receiving at the moment are human.

What would happen if humanity were extinguished from the galaxy and a similar sentient race took their place? Assuming that the new sentient race feels similar emotions to humanity (in the same way that humanity feels similar emotions to the Eldar, and recognising that the emotions of hope, despair, anger and pleasure that the Chaos Gods represent are pretty universal), there'd be "new" gods in the warp reflecting the emotions flowing around. Would the "new" Gods be just the old Chaos Gods with different names and slightly different characters, or be genuinely different entities? I really don't think it matters, it seems to be filling the same functional role anyway. Whether you call them the same thing or not doesn't affect the fact that warp gods are swirling vortices of emotion in the warp, and sentient races tend to produce similar emotions, so you'll end up with substantially the same "Gods".

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 10:59
Not necessarily the same. The Eldar god Khaine was the Eldar equivalent of Khorne in that it was the dark bloodthirsty bit of the Eldar psyche. Yet Khaine never quite goes to the mindless extremes of violence, including self destructive violence, that Khorne does, and even fights to protect the Eldar during the birth of Slaanesh. Both Khorne and Khaine are warp entities but they are two separate ones. It's simple: different races different gods, superficial similarities aside.

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 11:09
Not necessarily the same. The Eldar god Khaine was the Eldar equivalent of Khorne in that it was the dark bloodthirsty bit of the Eldar psyche. Yet Khaine never quite goes to the mindless extremes of violence, including self destructive violence, that Khorne does, and even fights to protect the Eldar during the birth of Slaanesh. Both Khorne and Khaine are warp entities but they are two separate ones. It's simple: different races different gods, superficial similarities aside.

The similarities aren't merely superficial - they're feeding off exactly the same emotion, they just have a different flavour depending on the race providing the emotion.

If you're really fixated on keeping their names separate, think of it this way: they're both part of the massive warp vortex of anger (call it "K").

Russell's teapot
05-09-2007, 11:27
re the issue of khorne/nurgle/tzeentch being created by humans (or not depending on your point of view): how many of the other races
A) refer to them in their history/language by those names before we came along, and
B) worship them, or have a history laced with cults dedicated to them or whatever?

A rose by another name is still a rose.


So - what influence have the other races actually had on these entities? To me it seems more likely that (as per the existing fluff) the human emotions created these particular chaos beings, and as others have said these grew in power and influence as humanity spread through the galaxy.

Quite possibly other aspects existed for war, disease, hope amongst other alien races, but as they were exterminated by the humans in their crusades pre- and post-dark age, those beings would have been reduced to warp shadows and possibly consumed by the newly emergent humano-centric powers, effectively amalgamating them into one powerful entity of death/decay for instance.

I like Dante's 'Special K'. I don't think that these are different entities.

I agree that humanity 'created' the current warp entities, but only because the Warp entities changed their nature in order to present a more human face - this allows the human soul to be drawn to them, meaning they capture more human souls & become more human-like. A viscous/perfect circle if you like.

THE CHIEF
05-09-2007, 12:24
A rose by another name is still a rose.



I like Dante's 'Special K'. I don't think that these are different entities.

I agree that humanity 'created' the current warp entities, but only because the Warp entities changed their nature in order to present a more human face - this allows the human soul to be drawn to them, meaning they capture more human souls & become more human-like. A viscous/perfect circle if you like.

I think you and some others have got the wrong end of the stick with regards to background. The fact that it is 20 years old is irrelevant - the point is it has not been re-written thus it still stands. I can see your point of view however, and it does make sense. It's just not what is happening in 40k! (in my very humble opinion of course ;))

Some points I believe are true of the 40k universe:

-The 40k universe is Humano-centric, thus so are the dominant powers in the warp;
-The different races really don't necessarily share the same emotions (arguably the base ones are similar otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the types of interactions that we do between them and us, but similar does not mean the same);
-There are many many (even unlimited?) entities in the warp, some of which are brief flashes and others that are more enduring. Three are humanities doing, and one is the Eldar's. (incidentally, I know there is reference to Slaanesh consuming Eldar souls which is why they are so scared of it and developed their spirit stones - but where does it say the others actually feed on souls? AFAIK they don't).
-Different races create their own powers in the warp which are relevant to them and that they can draw power from etc, and are probably in their minds the 'dominant powers'. Do other races even know about the human spawned gods? Is it mentioned?

Lord Malorne
05-09-2007, 12:47
well it could be argued that the entities we see have no form be pus bag of nurgle or beserker of khorne as it says (unfortunatly) in the HOC book that they are given form through what they are perceived as.

prob what they will do with the new vanilla deamons.

so its plausible to some people to manifest as a winged deamon of nurgle!

but the avatars of the gods mean little next to there aspects of emotion or naturally occuring cycle... that is decay and renewal!

so as to the big four births i personally find that they are created through the emotions of the physical world rather dubious (DUBIOUS!!!) at best and quite stupid in most cases.

i see the warp as it should be... a parralel dimension whose denizens manifest as we perceive them to. and as for the births of the 3 other chaos gods, we just have to wait and see!

Russell's teapot
05-09-2007, 12:53
I think you and some others have got the wrong end of the stick with regards to background. The fact that it is 20 years old is irrelevant - the point is it has not been re-written thus it still stands. I can see your point of view however, and it does make sense. It's just not what is happening in 40k! (in my very humble opinion of course ;))

I agree, it's in the background & hasn't been re-written. However, vast swathes of the fluff from that era surrounding this fluff has been. Looking at what we've got now compared to then means that the fluff as presented doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

The fluff is from an era where Space marines were IG in good armour, the Eldar were even more "elves in space" than they are now and Orks hadn't lost their sense of humour. The far future wasn't nice, but it wasn't the gothic depression-fest that it is today...


Some points I believe are true of the 40k universe:

-The 40k universe is Humano-centric, thus so are the dominant powers in the warp;
-The different races really don't necessarily share the same emotions (arguably the base ones are similar otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the types of interactions that we do between them and us, but similar does not mean the same);

I'm a yes and no on this one. GW have been particularly lax in creating a truely 'alien' race - only the Tyranids & Necrons (to a point) are not just 'humans in silly suits'. The Eldar/Tau/Orks are simply aloof/scientific/stupid human stereotypes - with that in mind, and from old & recent fluff, we can see that they have similar thoughts & emotions to humans.

While I agree the emotion of anger in, say, a Tau is not the same as a human, but is similar enough to sate an angry God.


-There are many many (even unlimited?) entities in the warp, some of which are brief flashes and others that are more enduring. Three are humanities doing, and one is the Eldar's. (incidentally, I know there is reference to Slaanesh consuming Eldar souls which is why they are so scared of it and developed their spirit stones - but where does it say the others actually feed on souls? AFAIK they don't).

Ohhh! Lots of points in one:(
I agree that there are probably millions of minor entities out there. Whether the minor God of 'Dammit where did I put my pencil?' is actualy a ripple in the vortex God of Khorne, or an entity in its own right, I'm not sure about I must admit.
I disagree about humanity causing the 3 powers (see previous posts), however, it's hard to dispute the Eldar's involvement in Slannesh.
Souls - I'm not sure - I was using the word (lasyly I admit) interchangably with the word emotion. I don't know if there is a difference between a soul and the emotion of the being - maybe someone can point me in the right direction.


-Different races create their own powers in the warp which are relevant to them and that they can draw power from etc, and are probably in their minds the 'dominant powers'. Do other races even know about the human spawned gods? Is it mentioned?

There's a ******* great hole in the universe where CSMs of all types pour out. The Eldar try to prevent Tzeench entering the Black Library, the Swords of Vaul are stolen by Abbadon. I think they know...;)

Hellebore
05-09-2007, 12:58
Logical progression.

Not every race emotes the same way. An eldar's rage is different to a human's.

All similar emotions/emotion'flavoured' souls congregate together. The emotions and souls of all sentients merge together, but are not identical.

Thus you have Khorne made up of the rage of humans, eldar, orks, jokaero, tau, kroot etc.

As each emotes differently, Khorne is subdivided into race specific sections.

Which ever race is the most prevalent in the galaxy will affect the 'dominant' emotive flavour of the god.

60 million years ago the eldar were the dominant race. There were no humans, thus their distinctive emotive flavour was not available to affect the Rage god's appearance.

As humans are one of the most prevalent races at the moment, their emotive flavour controls the Rage god's appearance.

If the Kroot became the dominant race in the galaxy, their peculiar form of rage would become ascendent in the ragestormKhorne, and Khorne would change in appearance and demenour.


The necron codex contradicts the realms books in regards to the existence of chaos gods. It says that when the psychic races were brought forth they caused the warp to churn, and with every death they fed the growing warp entities. The chaos gods were growing 60 million years before the present.

Perhaps the Crusades were the beginning of humanity's ascension as dominant rage flavour, and thus the humanflavouredKhorne came into existence, but the Rage god itself existed long before humanity stamped it with their image.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 13:07
Logical progression.

Not every race emotes the same way. An eldar's rage is different to a human's.

All similar emotions/emotion'flavoured' souls congregate together. The emotions and souls of all sentients merge together, but are not identical.

Thus you have Khorne made up of the rage of humans, eldar, orks, jokaero, tau, kroot etc.

As each emotes differently, Khorne is subdivided into race specific sections.

Which ever race is the most prevalent in the galaxy will affect the 'dominant' emotive flavour of the god.

60 million years ago the eldar were the dominant race. There were no humans, thus their distinctive emotive flavour was not available to affect the Rage god's appearance.

As humans are one of the most prevalent races at the moment, their emotive flavour controls the Rage god's appearance.

If the Kroot became the dominant race in the galaxy, their peculiar form of rage would become ascendent in the ragestormKhorne, and Khorne would change in appearance and demenour.


The necron codex contradicts the realms books in regards to the existence of chaos gods. It says that when the psychic races were brought forth they caused the warp to churn, and with every death they fed the growing warp entities. The chaos gods were growing 60 million years before the present.

Perhaps the Crusades were the beginning of humanity's ascension as dominant rage flavour, and thus the humanflavouredKhorne came into existence, but the Rage god itself existed long before humanity stamped it with their image.

Hellebore

Yeah, this is pretty much what I was trying to say before. The debate seemed to be largely over whether you call the giant rage god "Khorne", or just limit it to the human-aspect of it. And as I was trying to point out, it's really just semantics.

Russell's teapot
05-09-2007, 13:09
Dammit Hellebore,

How come you can put things so succinctly?

Well said sir.

Hellebore
05-09-2007, 13:11
This particular topic has come up before, and the above is a distilled and simplified version of my arguments within those threads.

After you say the same thing a half dozen times, you get better at saying it in fewer words. ;)

hellebore

charlie_c67
05-09-2007, 13:14
I thought the Thrud or Orks were meant to be the most prevalent race in the galaxy though? Or do some races have a stronger emotion flavour than others?

THE CHIEF
05-09-2007, 13:20
The necron codex contradicts the realms books in regards to the existence of chaos gods. It says that when the psychic races were brought forth they caused the warp to churn, and with every death they fed the growing warp entities. The chaos gods were growing 60 million years before the present.

Perhaps the Crusades were the beginning of humanity's ascension as dominant rage flavour, and thus the humanflavouredKhorne came into existence, but the Rage god itself existed long before humanity stamped it with their image.

Hellebore

I don't think this overrides/contradicts anything - you are just assuming that they are talking about Khorne/Nurgle etc. (which doesn't appear to be definitely stated anywhere - it's still pretty ambiguous).

It is just semantics really, and I like a lot of the views put forward so far to be honest. They are balanced and plausible. I just think that the Human-centric idea is a much more potent dynamic in what is ultimately a very tragic and powerful story about humanity's future.

Hellebore
05-09-2007, 13:22
I believe that the orks and their peculiar communal psychic nature means that Gork and Mork tend to attract most of their flavour so to speak.

Whilst they aren't immune to chaotic influence, the manner of their connection to the specific ork gods may lessen how much influence they have on them.

Each of the god storms are also conglomerates of related emotions. So the Rage storm also contains anger, dissatisfaction, frustration etc.

Some race specific gods are an example where a race emotes in a way that no (or very few) other races do. Sometimes these are conglomerates of parts of multiple godstorms.

Like in WFB, where the Horned Rat possesses aspects of both Tzeentch AND Nurgle, despite them being antithetic.

The key word there being ASPECTS. Nurgle is such a large godstorm that it encompasses more than despair, and so the Horned Rat possesses characteristics of a small subset of the emotions that form Nurgle.

Gav Thorpe once described the gods of chaos in terms of circles:

The Warp (or undivided) is a large circle. Each of the 4 BASIC sentient emotions that exist within the Warhammer mythos, Rage, Hope, Despair, Lust exist as 4 circles inside the first.

Each of these overlaps each other, so right in the centre is a complete overlap of all 4 storms.

It is at these overlaps that gods like the horned rat with more than one facet to their makeup exist.

The circle diagram isn't necessarily the most accurate, but it gives a general idea of the way it works...



It is just semantics really, and I like a lot of the views put forward so far to be honest. They are balanced and plausible. I just think that the Human-centric idea is a much more potent dynamic in what is ultimately a very tragic and powerful story about humanity's future.

Unfortunately that isn't consistent with the manner in which the warp interacts with sentient life. In the Warhammer mythos, ALL sentients affect it, not just humans. If it was a peculiarity of humanity then sure, it would be tragic.

However the manner of the warp's construction precludes that from being true (slannesh is a very potent example - humanity did not create it, but are affected by it just as much as most races).

I once came up with a way for orks to worship the Lust God. Speed Freaks. They take pleasure in, and are obsessed with, going fast. After going at 100kph, they NEED to go faster. They become addicted. This is the closest way an ork can come to the conventions that govern the Lust Storm. And it well demonstrates how each race emotes differently, and thus can affect these godstorms differently. Orks don't have sex, so that particular form of lust does not come from them. The addiction to sensation though, that is something that speed freaks do VERY well.




Hellebore

THE CHIEF
05-09-2007, 13:25
Plus there is another interesting point about what is outside of our galaxy - the warp is an alternate dimension that mirrors our universe. If you think about how many races are present just in our galaxy in 40k, there are probably hundreds of thousands of other galaxies with equal or more sentient beings in them. And I don't buy the idea that the Tyranids consumed everything!

THE CHIEF
05-09-2007, 13:28
I believe that the orks and their peculiar communal psychic nature means that Gork and Mork tend to attract most of their flavour so to speak.

Whilst they aren't immune to chaotic influence, the manner of their connection to the specific ork gods may lessen how much influence they have on them.

Each of the god storms are also conglomerates of related emotions. So the Rage storm also contains anger, dissatisfaction, frustration etc.

Some race specific gods are an example where a race emotes in a way that no (or very few) other races do. Sometimes these are conglomerates of parts of multiple godstorms.

Like in WFB, where the Horned Rat possesses aspects of both Tzeentch AND Nurgle, despite them being antithetic.

The key word there being ASPECTS. Nurgle is such a large godstorm that it encompasses more than despair, and so the Horned Rat possesses characteristics of a small subset of the emotions that form Nurgle.

Gav Thorpe once described the gods of chaos in terms of circles:

The Warp (or undivided) is a large circle. Each of the 4 BASIC sentient emotions that exist within the Warhammer mythos, Rage, Hope, Despair, Lust exist as 4 circles inside the first.

Each of these overlaps each other, so right in the centre is a complete overlap of all 4 storms.

It is at these overlaps that gods like the horned rat with more than one facet to their makeup exist.

The circle diagram isn't necessarily the most accurate, but it gives a general idea of the way it works...

Hellebore

Yeah you own me. I got nuthin on that :angel:

Hive Mind 33
05-09-2007, 13:30
Logical progression.

Not every race emotes the same way. An eldar's rage is different to a human's.

All similar emotions/emotion'flavoured' souls congregate together. The emotions and souls of all sentients merge together, but are not identical.

Thus you have Khorne made up of the rage of humans, eldar, orks, jokaero, tau, kroot etc.

As each emotes differently, Khorne is subdivided into race specific sections.

Which ever race is the most prevalent in the galaxy will affect the 'dominant' emotive flavour of the god.

60 million years ago the eldar were the dominant race. There were no humans, thus their distinctive emotive flavour was not available to affect the Rage god's appearance.

As humans are one of the most prevalent races at the moment, their emotive flavour controls the Rage god's appearance.

If the Kroot became the dominant race in the galaxy, their peculiar form of rage would become ascendent in the ragestormKhorne, and Khorne would change in appearance and demenour.


The necron codex contradicts the realms books in regards to the existence of chaos gods. It says that when the psychic races were brought forth they caused the warp to churn, and with every death they fed the growing warp entities. The chaos gods were growing 60 million years before the present.

Perhaps the Crusades were the beginning of humanity's ascension as dominant rage flavour, and thus the humanflavouredKhorne came into existence, but the Rage god itself existed long before humanity stamped it with their image.

Hellebore

I think that the Orks have no affect on Khorne what so ever just look at Gork and Mork. they are the psychic manifestation of all orks so they and emotions are part of any psych of a species. Khaine and Khrone are different other wise Tzeentch would have not have been able to trick Khaine into killing that eldar guy.
If Humans died the god would die the next race would develop their own gods. Why? because the psych oh races are different if Khorne did exist befoer humans he would look more different

my question is why is it that Humans can not have their own manifestations in the warp? The other races do again it seems you say that humans are not allowed to have their own gods. Its a double standard Eldar can have their own but Humans can't

Lord Fatwa
05-09-2007, 13:45
my question is why is it that Humans can not have their own manifestations in the warp? The other races do again it seems you say that humans are not allowed to have their own gods. Its a double standard Eldar can have their own but Humans can't

They can... The Star Child, if/when it comes about, will be an entirely human-birthed entity, born of the Emperor's Soul/Psyche... It's not that humanity isn't allowed... It's just that with the background having been updated, to the point where the denizens of the Warp are mentioned as having existed for 60 million years, it seems a little naive to think that they are humanity's sole doing... Certainly in the galaxy as it stands in the 41st millenium, humanity is the most influential race, but that by no means suggests that the Chaos Gods came to be because some (then) insignificant race on an out of the way, backwater planet on some distant arm of the galaxy suddenly started feeling angry, hopeful and depressed... ;)


So the concensus seems to be, so far at least, the while Slaanesh's birth was an interstellar explosion of Warp energy, the other three were much more subtle? Like water coming to the boil, or something like that... Interesting... To me Slaanesh's birth fits in with Slaanesh's character... The Eldar as a race and culture had almost completely given themselves over to excess and debauchery... Surely, given the slow-boil idea of the other big three, the pre-Slaanesh-as-we-know-it entity would've been growing in the Warp during the process of this, but biding his/her time... Kinda like a Diva waiting for a full house before she takes the stage...

If this is the case, then I rather like the idea of the other three having similarly characterful births... I just can't think of any background to support it... :cries:

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 13:49
Gork and Mork are separate racial gods of the Orks. Reference Epic Titan Legions, wherein the Ork gods inspire the creation of the first Ork Gargant and beat aside the resistance of the other gods in the warp, including the big 4 chaos gods. The Ork gods in sheer power are probably the most potent of the Milky Way Galaxy's gods (no comparison being made here with the extragalactic Hive Mind). However they rarely take direct action as like the Orks themselves, they spend much of their time squabbling with each other. Like the Orks, the Ork gods have potential to conquer and dominate but they don't do so on a large scale as such is not in their nature. Ork gods and Ork souls are most definitely not part of this strange attempt by players to try and create a pseudo-monotheism by melding everything into one (or the Big Four).

Lord Fatwa
05-09-2007, 14:05
Ork gods and Ork souls are most definitely not part of this strange attempt by players to try and create a pseudo-monotheism by melding everything into one (or the Big Four).

I don't believe this is an attempt at monotheism so much as a little bit of bleed-through from Fantasy, where all the Gods are essentially Chaos Gods, because the 'Warp' as it exists in Fantasy is more or less the sole dominion of Chaos, and that's where all the Gods live, and because all magic is derived from the eight winds that come from Chaos and so on and so forth until we're all a little confused... So to say that Gork and Mork are entirely individual and aren't aspects of Khorne worshipped or followed by the Orks is entirely reasonable and, most likely, entirely accurate... Personally I don't think the Orks are as concerned with worship as the Chaos Gods would require, and so they'd make for a lousy bunch of followers anyway... ;)

Hive Mind 33
05-09-2007, 18:32
IN the 3rd Chaos codex it stats humanity created KHORNE and NURGLE in the first few sentences. WE can assume that tZeentch was created by humans also. The emperor was a man not a god the emperor even said that himself and there are too many plot holes to assume what he was.
All i am saying is that Three of the chaos gods are human emotions made given form. It makes sense that we have a form to our emotions.

ctsteel
05-09-2007, 22:51
it would also make sense that humanity primarily created the first three, simply because there was nothing else around before that except the eldar and the orks.
the eldar had their own gods, and their lifestyle/emotions were feeding not-yet-born slaanesh.
the ork had their own gods, and their energies would pour into gork and mork
the tau/dark eldar/nids/necrons were not around
so who was left? humans. we didn't have chaos entities of our own, and it wasn't until the middle ages that humans spread across our planet enough to have large scale wars, plagues, death, and invention, hence it was at this point that the other three gained consciousness and form.

EDIT:
to clarify further - my main point here is that even though the warpstorm that formed each of them may have existed for a long time, after the old ones were defeated and the harvester plague went through the galaxy these chaos beings would have fallen back to almost nothing as there was little to feed them (and the eldar/ork had their own pantheon).

So in the time since, the only race that has come to major prominence with ability to influence the warp is homo sapiens - other xenos species may have had some contribution at first (or their own minor gods) but humanity is the race that sired them as they are now, in the middle ages - and as humanity crossed the stars and grew in power, so did these beings which were following across the warp with us, either absorbing other races' warp entities into themselves, or taking command of them as underlings.

Perhaps two chaos powers of eg decay (human and some other alien race) upon the races meeting would immediately merge together if they were alike enough, like two drops of water touching. And then at some point the entity reaches a critical mass, and gains its own sentience beyond that of the race it came from, and then it chooses what it absorbs or keeps as an underling power. and so the gods are born.

I don't see why khorne,nurgle,tzeentch would need to have had birth-throes like slaanesh, that power is the power of lust, thirst, excess, effectively representing pure selfishness and self satisfaction. Seems to me it is perfectly in character for such a being to drink every soul it can find to the point of decimating the race simply for its own pleasure - its the nature of the thing. the other gods don't have the same nature so I don't see them as being born in the same way.

Hellebore
06-09-2007, 02:44
There were:

Eldar
Orks
K'nib
Tarellians
Jokaero
Rashan
H'rud
Quorl

around before humanity.

The advent of humanity added a total of *GASP* ONE race to the galaxy.


The chaos gods are NOT human exclusive - they are the manifestations of the flaws of all sentients. There current IMAGE is human dominated, but that's not the same thing.

If they were human exclusive, then no other race could become possessed/fall to them, and humanity would be of no interest whatsoever to Slannesh.

This arguement is full of holes, every piece of evidence has already been stated, if the logical progression in that isn't good enough for some people who wish to take a single line and use it to justify a very narrow supposition, then go for it. That doesn't change the Necron codex, the somehow human worshipped eldar god Slannesh, or GW's own explanation of the formation of warp entities (like Gav Thorpe's).

If people wish to ignore that and stick their fingers in their ears shouting *human did it! humans did it!* the be my guest.

Hellebore

Hive Mind 33
06-09-2007, 02:49
Dude in the CHAOS CODEX it says
in the chaos codex it states Khorne is living embodiment of every hate fulled blow, ever pointless murder of the HUMAN RACE [/color]

Nurgel-Death is the only constant in the realm of MEN
if any other race had a hand why would it state only HUMANS. if any argument is full of holes its yours

I have the CRON codex tell me which page is it on

Iracundus
06-09-2007, 04:28
The Necron Codex makes no mention whatsoever of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle being formed from the War in Heaven. All it mentions is the formerly calm warp became stirred up by the war as spirits started coalescing in what was previously just formless warp. That just means there were the start of warp entities, not Khorne Tzeentch or Nurgle specifically, which is the erroneous conclusion some people seem to be leaping to.

ctsteel
06-09-2007, 07:00
There were:

Eldar
Orks
K'nib
Tarellians
Jokaero
Rashan
H'rud
Quorl

around before humanity.



thanks for pointing the others out - I'd forgotten/not encountered some of them. However the lesser ones aren't necessarily races with emotions that impact on the warp, and certainly once the imperium spread through the galaxy they would have had much less impact. So it doesn't preclude the notion that these particular three powers came into being via our emotions to begin with, and the similar entities of the other races (do jokaero even get angry?) may have been absorbed, or fled/become subservient to the human-formed version as it grew in power to match our rise. As those races were exterminated or subjugated their warp-constructs would have faded away or been melded into the new power that was hovering around watching the humans.

I'm not sure my thoughts are overly differ from yours except perhaps on the point of when the big three came into being, I can understand your version as well and don't claim that it is wrong as such. I just feel that an interpretation which takes the pre-existing fluff into account, and also incorporates the merging of all races' aspects as you've advocated, seems to be a better overall fit and bides with me better.

Russell's teapot
06-09-2007, 07:10
If people wish to ignore that and stick their fingers in their ears shouting *human did it! humans did it!* the be my guest.


Makes a change from Necrons :D

I think I'll retire from this thread, I've said what I wanted to & Hellebore said it better:(;)

As a final shot - humans didn't do it! It's simply foolish to assume that because humans are here now, that they have always been here, and everything around the 40k universe is simply to do with them. The universe is not reborn everytime a power-struggle means a new main race emerges. The universe continues and all that happens is that it is seen through new eyes.

Hellebore
06-09-2007, 08:48
The problem here is as has been said before, Semantics.

There are 4 base emotions that exist in all things, to a lesser or greater degree. These are decreed to be Rage, Hope, Despair, and Lust.

Ever since the Old ones created psychically sensitive races during the War in Heaven, these souls/emotions have existed within the warp, and cause all sorts of turmoil.

Ever since the War in Heaven there have been "Chaos Gods".

These are simply powerful acretions of similar souls/emotions that form within the warp.

Ever since then, there has been The Chaos gods of Rage, Hope, Despair, Lust.

Khaine is the Rage god created by the eldar. When they were ascendent (during the 60million years before humanity ever appeared) Khaine was the face of Rage.

Until the Fall there were no super chaos gods of Lust, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. Slannesh is the Chaos Lust god flavoured by the emotions of the eldar.

When humans became ascendent, the face of Rage changed. It was no longer the cold blooded, inhuman murderer, but the uncontrolled blood thirsty berserker - what was called Khorne. Nowhere does any of this contradict the information given, it is actually supported by it.

Slannesh is called a 'chaos god' despite being 'created' by the eldar. There are whole swathes of humanity worshipping it - but according to some people's definitions here, having only been created by the eldar, humanity would have not effect on it. The same is true of the other chaos gods - ostensibly, according to posters here, they are soley human based gods. If that is true then it means no other races emote that way, and thus have no effect on them, or any interest in them.

The fact that the 'eldar' chaos god Slannesh, and the 'human' chaos gods tzeentch, nurgle, and khorne are interchangeable amongst different species MUST mean that they all emote those emotions - if they didn't then those gods would have no effect on them (this is why the Old Ones never affected the warp - they were effectively emotionless).


Hellebore

Iracundus
06-09-2007, 09:17
No one said the Chaos gods cannot grab the odd non originating species soul. There are Stormboyz of Khorne for example. However that doesn't change the fact Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle originated as human gods, while Slaanesh originated as an Eldar god. Khaine is not the same as Khorne. Khaine did not morph into Khorne. Khaine is a deity of the Eldar pantheon that fragmented and his power dispersed into the material universe while Khorne remains within the warp just as he always has since his birth with humans.

Whatever other minor racial gods existed in the past for Khorne's equivalent among all the minor races of the galaxy is irrelevant, as they are all either dead, or still minor gods in the face of Khorne who is dominant in the warp just as humans are dominant in the galaxy. If humans were to suddenly vanish, then Khorne would likewise fall from dominance as the bulk of his feeding is from humans.

charlie_c67
06-09-2007, 10:08
Hellebore, which chaos god are you ascribing hope to? As that seems more suited to being ascribed to those that worship the emperor rather than the big 4.

setekhite
06-09-2007, 11:16
In the various Black Library novels there are entire Chaos-worshipping species - the Laer in Fulgrim, the Saruthi (sp?) in the Eisenhorn saga, and I'm sure there are others. In both cases a 'conventional' Chaos artefact sat at the heart of their worship.

That said, all of the major races described earlier are basically Old One projects who were guided to maturity; humans are of a less certain provenance and at best an incomplete work. This perhaps gives Humans a unique combination of psychic power and rampant indiscipline which could explain why they have a disproportionate effect on the Warp.

Lord Fatwa
06-09-2007, 13:10
Hellebore, which chaos god are you ascribing hope to? As that seems more suited to being ascribed to those that worship the emperor rather than the big 4.

Hope goes to Tzeentch... While hope is an emotion that the Emperor would no doubt be associated with in regard to the general Imperial populace, but Tzeentch is the embodiment... Specifically the hope that things could be different... Bear in mind, rage is also given to the Emperor by his warriors in battle, as they fight in his name...

Hellebore
06-09-2007, 13:21
Hope goes to Tzeentch... While hope is an emotion that the Emperor would no doubt be associated with in regard to the general Imperial populace, but Tzeentch is the embodiment... Specifically the hope that things could be different... Bear in mind, rage is also given to the Emperor by his warriors in battle, as they fight in his name...

And this is precisely where the godstorm 'overlap' gods from.

The Star Child isn't the sole benefactor of rage and hope...

Hellebore

charlie_c67
06-09-2007, 13:54
I thought Tzeentch was the god of evil scheming and politcal machinations though.

Hive Mind 33
06-09-2007, 14:27
look at Hellebore runninng around with is fingers in his ears saying "Humans didn't do it." give us fluff that supports that if we didn't do it we obviously don't have a presence in the warp.

Lord Fatwa
06-09-2007, 15:07
I thought Tzeentch was the god of evil scheming and politcal machinations though.

That's the Chaotic outworking of it, I guess... Like Slaanesh is the embodiment of desire, but given chaotic form, and so desire becomes lust and excess, and then you add the needs of the God him/herself for worship and souls and such, and indeed the God's own personality, the Choatic re-imagining of the emotion is complete... Tzeentch is the same...

DantesInferno
07-09-2007, 01:20
look at Hellebore runninng around with is fingers in his ears saying "Humans didn't do it." give us fluff that supports that if we didn't do it we obviously don't have a presence in the warp.

Let's be absolutely clear on this: No one is saying that humans don't have a presence in the warp. No one is saying that the Chaos Gods, at M41, are not substantially shaped by human emotions. Humans are one of the dominant warp-affecting races in the galaxy, so of course they're going to have a huge impact on the gods of the warp.

What we are saying is that humans weren't the first sentient life forms to create vortices of emotion in the warp: rage, hope, despair and desire. The galaxy had at least 60 million years of conscious, warp-affecting life before humans became more than blip on the galactic radar.

If you're going to define Khorne as the specifically human-developed part of the greater warp conglomeration of anger, that's up to you, as long as you recognise that there was something there before humans came along. It just seems to run into problems when it comes to Slaanesh, who gives us very clear indication that gods aren't really race-specific, and change to accommodate whichever race is giving them the most amount of sustenance.

It makes much more sense to say, as Hellebore and others in the thread have pointed out, that Khorne existed before humanity, and has been reshaped in humanity's image upon its ascension to galactic prominence.

Hellebore
07-09-2007, 01:49
look at Hellebore runninng around with is fingers in his ears saying "Humans didn't do it." give us fluff that supports that if we didn't do it we obviously don't have a presence in the warp.

Wow, your comprehension skills obviously need an overhaul if you cannot understand my posts (most other posters have not evinced such a position).

Either that, or you just aren't reading them, because you don't want to.

Everything I needed to say is in all my previous posts, nowhere did I say that humans had no effect on the warp or chaos gods, so either you don't understand what I've said, or you are maliciously lying about it in order to try and support your own position.

Hellebore

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 02:02
It doesn't make more sense to say Khorne existed before as it goes against the canonical background that says humans gave rise to Khorne. It makes more sense that other races had their own racial gods, and Khorne was one that was born with humanity and that rose to eclipse other racial gods once humanity became dominant. Slaanesh is an Eldar god of excess. Once again people are getting confused between what is meant when it's said the gods were caused by a particular race. Just because Slaanesh was created by the Eldar doesn't limit him purely to Eldar souls, but it does mean there was no such thing as Slaanesh before the Fall. Likewise, Khorne is not restricted from non-human souls, but it means that Khorne was non-existent before humans arose.

There are numerous other references such as Doombreed's history which describes him as one of the earlier daemon princes for the young god Khorne. Doombreed was a warlord from Terra, and if Khorne was "young" before humanity took to space then Khorne hadn't existed very long. All the evidence points to Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch being gods that rose with humanity. Whatever other racial gods fulfilled their roles among the other alien races before humanity became dominant, are now either dead or now merely minor players in the warp.

Hive Mind 33
07-09-2007, 02:04
No. i have read you posts and no where did you ever give sufficient evidence in fluff of your position. YOu tried with the Necron codex in which you were wrong.The info i got is from the 3rd edtion chaos codex.

Hellebore
07-09-2007, 02:37
No. i have read you posts and no where did you ever give sufficient evidence in fluff of your position. YOu tried with the Necron codex in which you were wrong.The info i got is from the 3rd edtion chaos codex.

Ok, let me say it slowly. NOTHING in the 3rd ed codex is INVALIDATED by ANYTHING I have said. Khorne DID come into existence when humanity became ascendent in the galaxy. That DOESN'T preclude there being a Rage god BEFORE that. It simply DOESN'T.

If it did, the eldar war god would never have existed. You aren't reading what I've said, all you've done is looked at it, and when it disagrees with your opinion, you've shouted 'hellebore's wrong!'.

Fine, whatever. The biggest problem you seem to have is trouble with the concept of mutual exclusivity, which is NOT something I've been talking about.

Hellebore

Three Headed Monkey
07-09-2007, 03:45
look at Hellebore runninng around with is fingers in his ears saying "Humans didn't do it." give us fluff that supports that if we didn't do it we obviously don't have a presence in the warp.

For one thing we all know that Slaanesh was created from the Eldar, and not humanity. I'm not saying early humanities lust had nothing to do with it whatsoever, but that the psychic resonance needed to bring Slaanesh into being came mostly from the Eldar. So we know for certain that humanity did not have a massive hand in that.

The Liber Chaotica gives a very good account of Slaanesh's birth from the viewpoint of the other chaos gods. Khorne put alot of effort into stopping the creation of Slaanesh. Pretty much holding the nascent power that was slaanesh (the kinda warp equivalent of an egg) and sqeezing to stop its growth.

Also, the first gods of the warp were indeed created by the Eldar, at the behest of the Old Ones. At this point the warp gods were just weapons to be used fighting the Necrons and C'tan.

I quote from the Liber Chaotics (if I am allowed to do so)

"I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race (Eldar) to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the star gods.

But the battle was long and the First Ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their your creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw the Eldar's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium."

Although it only mentions Khaine by name as one of these gods, it is my interpretation that these gods mentioned are the Eldar's gods, and not the big four. However, I think most of the warp spawned beings were in existance in some form at this point, as there was a mass daemonic incursion into the galaxy that drove the star gods away and that the Eldar had to fight off.

Would this be possible if there were no chaos gods? Yes, the daemons could all just be creations of the warp, each an individual without purpose, or were lead by different beings before the ascent of the gods we know. However, we do not know for certain. Perhaps the Eldar codex sheds some light on this, but i do not have it. After driving the daemons back into their realm, the Eldar Empire grew into what we know before the fall.

In terms of actual creation the only God that is given a specific account is that of Slaanesh, so whether or not Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Khorne were created by humans or were nascent creations of the Eldar who were fueled by humanity or the other countless alien races in the galaxy, it is almost impossible to determine. Either way, the current state of the warp would not be possible without the Eldar, who started the ball rolling.

However, everything I have read in the Liber Chaotica seems to support what Hellebore is saying.


Dude in the CHAOS CODEX it says
in the chaos codex it states Khorne is living embodiment of every hate fulled blow, ever pointless murder of the HUMAN RACE [/color]

Nurgel-Death is the only constant in the realm of MEN
if any other race had a hand why would it state only HUMANS. if any argument is full of holes its yours

I have the CRON codex tell me which page is it on

Does this say that Khorne is only fueled by the hate fueled blows of the Human race? No, it is simply using the words man, human etc, to give the readers a perspective. To talk about the mirriad races in the galaxy, the codex would then have to explain them, and that is outside of the scope of that codex. Even so, alien emotions would be entirely different to our own, so may fuel the chaos gods in different ways. They may not stike each other hate fueled blows, but may do something entirely incomprehensible to observing humans that still effects the immaterium. My point is that the reader of the codex is human, so the codex explains how humans effect the warp. To go beyond that would require much further explanation and sour the dramatic tone it is trying to set.

Humans are the most numerous beings in the galaxy that have an effect in the warp so yes, in the 41st millenium the majority of the psychic power the chaos gods are feeding on comes from humanity, but its does not say humanity alone. Nor does anything say that the chaos gods were created by humanity.

Again, you are having problems with mutual exlusion and exactly what that means. Just because humanity is CURRENTLY the major force fueling the gods, does not mean that they always were, nor does it mean that humanity brought about the actual birth and creation of the chaos gods as we know them.

Hive Mind 33
07-09-2007, 03:54
Ok, let me say it slowly. NOTHING in the 3rd ed codex is INVALIDATED by ANYTHING I have said. Khorne DID come into existence when humanity became ascendent in the galaxy. That DOESN'T preclude there being a Rage god BEFORE that. It simply DOESN'T.

If it did, the eldar war god would never have existed. You aren't reading what I've said, all you've done is looked at it, and when it disagrees with your opinion, you've shouted 'hellebore's wrong!'.

Fine, whatever. The biggest problem you seem to have is trouble with the concept of mutual exclusivity, which is NOT something I've been talking about.

Hellebore

I never said the codex was invalid i own the the 3rd edition cron codex i saw nothing in there about the chaos gods. If it is not invalid let me repeat the 3rd edition chaos codex which is not yet invalid
chaos codex it states Khorne is living embodiment of every hate fulled blow, ever pointless murder of the HUMAN RACE [/color]
and nurgle's entry states the realm of men
if other races were included why does it not state the moral realm, or the races
Khorne DID come into existence when humanity became ascendent in the galaxy where does it say that. give me fluff Just because he was a god of rage does not mean he was Khrone you problem is you assume just because it is a gods of rage it is Khrone.
In the two game settings, Chaos represents the classic theme of Man vs. Himself, with the fantasy twist of giving these psychological struggles a physical form and influence(Slannesh counts because it is the god of self-indulgence therefore would want human followers because it always wants more)

sabreu
07-09-2007, 04:06
Am I missing something, but what were the catalystic events that created Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch again? If Slaanesh is any indicator of a god spawning from a single race, then I would like to know where the three other ones suddenly popped up if they were only birthed by humanities effect on the warp.:eyebrows:

Lord Fatwa
07-09-2007, 04:28
@ sabreu - At this point the theory seems to be either that the other three have existed for a long **** time in the Warp (since the War in Heaven), but gradually shifted their focus over to humanity as mankind's prominence in the universe became apparent, or that they simply grew in the Warp as humanity grew, and now that humanity are the most powerful race in the galaxy (arguably), they are the most prominent Gods... So, at this point, there appears to be no evidence to support any other cataclysmic births...

Which I find to be very, very disappointing... :cries:

Biomass Denial
07-09-2007, 10:32
I would presently like to throw a spanner in the works.

Where do tyranids souls go and what do the "feed"

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 10:40
Nowhere and nobody. The Tyranids exist as one super organism, embodied as the Hive Mind, and the individual creatures are just individual cells within that. The presence of the Hive Mind in each fleet is present in the warp as a vast shadow, the sum total of the individual creatures making up the fleet. Tyranid creatures have no individual identity of their own and no emotions of their own. Whatever warp presence they individually have is subsumed into the whole while they are alive, and if they die, presumably dissolve back into the warp while the rest continue to exist.

ctsteel
07-09-2007, 11:08
a further thought - the chaos entities normally swirl around a newly killed sentient (particularly if has psyker ability), eager to devour its soul. if a person (and more importantly a psyker) is killed and eaten by the nids, does their soul escape such a fate? the shadow in the warp calms the area around it, so daemons and such would probably not be in or near it - psykers are unsettled by it so I imagine it would be worse for a creature born of that realm.

so the souls may escape that initial feeding frenzy and have a chance at moving on unmolested - until it floats away from the shadow perhaps. though at that point, does one soul from a now-dead psyker, look any different to a soul from a mundane? the psychic link to the warp has been severed so may not.

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 12:54
Human souls dissolve and do not retain consciousness after death in general.

Psychically active individuals and races seem to have more potent souls, at least so far as it matters in terms of daemonic or godly nutrition. Hence why Eldar souls are so prized and attract so many daemons.

Lord Malorne
07-09-2007, 13:20
how about this from wikipedia!...

Desperate to rectify the situation, the Old Ones created new servant races to use as warriors and weapons against the C'tan; however, this was to prove their undoing. These new generations of warrior-races, including the Eldar, had stronger connections to the Warp, and because of this, as they grew in numbers, they would stir the currents of the Warp into forming creatures called daemons, which were inimical to the order the Old Ones sought. The warrior races were specifically created to be attuned to the warp and/or posess psychic powers because the C'tan had a weakness: they had no influence over the warp.

Also....

The fragments of the Nightbringer, however, ripped into Khaine, melting in his fiery blood, tainting his physical aspect forever more. Before leaving to reform, the Nightbringer instilled a fear of death into all sentient beings, save for the Orks. This inadvertently fuelled the growth of the nascent Chaos gods, as they feed upon survivalist emotions, or responses to the knowledge of death.

as you can see the old ones and subsequently the latent emotions of there create-a-races birthed the chaos gods. whick raises an interesting question as to what gork and mork really are!

hope that helped! :D

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 14:51
That above means nothing as it's wikipedia and hence user written and non-canonical. There are numerous errors and personal slants in the 40K entries. For example the Necron entry is grossly mistaken in supposing the C'tan's Great Work is one single massive device. Instead as has been shown repeatedly in both the Eye of Terror and Medusa V campaigns, the Great Work is the network of Necron constructed pylons and structures. If you're going to try and "prove" something within a fictional universe, do not resort to non-canon or what amounts to basically fan writing.

Gork and Mork are warp gods of the Orks. It's as plain and simple as that.

DantesInferno
07-09-2007, 15:10
Gork and Mork are warp gods of the Orks. It's as plain and simple as that.

Might it be worth mentioning that they have similarities to Khorne and Tzeentch, respectively? Just more Orky versions, really.

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 15:18
So? Deceiver and the Laughing God are both subtle and like deception but that doesn't make them the same. People need to stop making the assumption that because two entities share similarities that therefore they have to be the same or "aspects" of each other. It's possible to have more than one person act similarly in this world. No reason whatsoever why the same can't apply in the warp.

DantesInferno
07-09-2007, 15:58
So? Deceiver and the Laughing God are both subtle and like deception but that doesn't make them the same.

Well, no. One is a warp entity, the other is a sentient physical creature to whom the warp is anathema. There's a fairly clear distinction there.


People need to stop making the assumption that because two entities share similarities that therefore they have to be the same or "aspects" of each other. It's possible to have more than one person act similarly in this world. No reason whatsoever why the same can't apply in the warp.

Given that warp entities in the 40k universe are fuelled and driven by the emotions of sentient creatures in real-space, you can't just pretend that they're all totally independent beings. It's just the nature of the way that vortices of emotion in the warp work that there will be broad similarities between gods of various races, because the emotions which fuel them are similar (of course, modified by the "flavour" of the emotions of specific races).

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 16:05
Of course it's perfectly sensible to say they are totally independent beings because they are different gods of different races, with their own conceptions and variations. The Ork conception of sneakiness as personified in Mork is different and separate from Tzeentch, who draws primarily upon humans and is much more focused on elaborate scheming, politics, magic, and desire to change the status quo. Gork is not Khorne. Mork is not Tzeentch. Khaine is not Khorne. Cergorach is not Tzeentch.

This is precisely what I mean by monotheistic bias when people seem unable to accept a multiplicity of similar deities with similar portfolios, instead by default trying to meld everything together into singular gods even when it is utter nonsense. There can be more than one god of a single concept!

DantesInferno
07-09-2007, 16:12
Of course it's perfectly sensible to say they are totally independent beings because they are different gods of different races, with their own conceptions and variations. The Ork conception of sneakiness as personified in Mork is different and separate from Tzeentch, who draws primarily upon humans and is much more focused on elaborate scheming, politics, magic, and desire to change the status quo.

Yes, there are differences between the two, drawn from the differences between the races fuelling the different gods. But there are also fairly persuasive similarities. They're not identical, but similar.


This is precisely what I mean by monotheistic bias when people seem unable to accept a multiplicity of similar deities with similar portfolios, instead by default trying to meld everything together into singular gods. There can be more than one god of a single concept!

I'm not sure really where monotheism comes into it. All I'm saying is that Mork and Tzeentch share convincing similarities because they're both gods coming from a larger emotion swirl in the warp. That's not saying that they are identical, or that their worshippers think they're identical.

Iracundus
07-09-2007, 16:16
They are two separate warp entities. Two separate systems in the warp. Just because two gods share superficial similarities does not automatically make them coming or part of the same entity. They are SEPARATE. The "monotheism" bit is this persistent inexplicable and nonsensical desire to try and lump gods, with even slight similarities, into one or to say they are "aspects" of one greater whole or some other linguistic gyration to insinuate they are not completely separate entities. It is a desire to try and create only one and only one god of a concept instead of accepting the polytheistic state of affairs where there are multiple gods as truly separate entities.

Hive Mind 33
07-09-2007, 19:29
They are two separate warp entities. Two separate systems in the warp. Just because two gods share superficial similarities does not automatically make them coming or part of the same entity. They are SEPARATE. The "monotheism" bit is this persistent inexplicable and nonsensical desire to try and lump gods, with even slight similarities, into one or to say they are "aspects" of one greater whole or some other linguistic gyration to insinuate they are not completely separate entities. It is a desire to try and create only one and only one god of a concept instead of accepting the polytheistic state of affairs where there are multiple gods as truly separate entities.

^Nicely put.
I have a question for all who believe that the chaos gods are just one god. Did you ever read Norse, Greek or any other mythology? Look at Loki(not really a god but to get my point across) and Anansi both were trickster gods but not the same. Or Thor, Ares, Ninurta, Camulus, are gods of war but non are the same. The Celts had nine gods of war all separate gods. In human history there have been hundreds of different gods and goddess for different peoples. All had their own stories of coming into being, did they share traits yes. What does that mean nothing.

sabreu
07-09-2007, 19:48
It all depends really on how your perspective works. To a wiccan, all gods are just different personas of either the Lord or the Lady. Like wise, we have in history where an older god is simply absorbed into a newer god. Whatever it may be, I'm sure it will never be revealed with a straight forward answer in any canon.

Hive Mind 33
07-09-2007, 21:50
It all depends really on how your perspective works. To a wiccan, all gods are just different personas of either the Lord or the Lady. Like wise, we have in history where an older god is simply absorbed into a newer god. Whatever it may be, I'm sure it will never be revealed with a straight forward answer in any canon.

What i am saying is from research on ancient polytheistic religions(Norse, Greek, Celtic). You can not put the Wiccan prospective against the ancient geek prospective. That is a two totally different ideas in which and older god my be become part of a new god, In ancient Greek mythology and older god is just and older god, while a new one is a new one. as much ans a Christan can but his beliefs against a Discordian. i guess what i am saying is what your beliefs are is fine. But nobody is able to but their own beliefs up against another religion dead or alive. Its wrong to do.(i am sorry if i took this the wrong way.)

MvS
08-09-2007, 00:21
I don't see this as being about the nature of pantheons of god in 'real world' history and nor do I see this as just being about cosmetic differences.

The gods in 40K are supposedly much 'larger', more powerful raw forces of sentience and the Id. They are vast and have as much in common with a notion of metaphysical 'tides' as anything else. They are massive forces of nature - of a sort.

The questions as to whether the Big Four existed before humans and whether there are completely separate 'gods' that can share similar attributes can be approached in different ways.

The tension within the 'canon' seems to be in how they address the Big Four. On the one hand we have entities whose daemons sometimes speak of existing since before humanity arose as a species, or who are supposedly the most powerful and dangerous Warp entities to effect Realspace. Then we have dear old Khaine and all that stuff.

If we strip the cosmology (or rather theology) of 40K down to its bare bones we have vortices of emotion and concept within the Warp. The biggest vortices are those that draw the most basic and readily experienced emotions common to almost all intelligent sentient beings. When we talk about whether gods can be similar but separate we have to take a stance of the vortices in the Warp. Either we believe that there are separate vortices for anger and rage in competition with each other for souls and emotion, or we believe that there is one super-vortex that has billions of smaller swirls and eddies within it. I tend to go for the second vision because I find it more complex and satisfying.

I like the idea that these vortices are massive beyond comprehension - even if one could comprehend the Warp, these things we describe as vortices are too massive and primal and weird to comprehend in anything but the most limited terms.

The vortex of anger and rage is Khorne, as far as it matters. What does that mean? It means that the identity of Khorne is the dominant identity eminating from, and/or projected onto, the vortex of rage and anger. There are of course other, smaller, vortices within this super vortex, because there are many other feeling associate with rage and anger that are subtle variations on the theme as it were.

We could say that Khaine is a lesser vortex of battle lust, the desire to kill and martial prowess, which has been subsumed by the greater vortex of pure rage. We could say that although the lesser vortices within the greater ones are part of the whole, they still have their own momentum and therefore identity, so Khaine and Khorne could be part of the same whole but still have different drives or manifestations at least.

Or we could say that in this age the dominant paradigm of rage within the Warp is a Khornate one - a human one. Perhaps the vortex stays the same, but how mortals perceive it and what mortals draw from it and project onto it (willingly and otherwise) define its dominant 'personality'. So whereas it might have been predominantly Khaine once, maybe now the exact same thing is predominantly Khorne.

This also helps explain the development of the gods. Rest assured all the death, anger, hate, fear, terror, suffering, despair, hope, battlelust, joy, desire, need and so on and on from the earliest days when the Old Ones and Necrons first clashed, have massive effects upon the Warp. Billions or even trillions of souls were sent into the Warp during millions of years of war, and many different intelligent races experienced emotions and personified and worshipped gods. I think it would be too limiting to suggest that the vortices of rage (etc) that went on to ultimately become the Big Four did not start to form in these early days.

I believe that humanity, with its uncontrolled psychic potential, pushed these pre-existing massive vortices into sentience as Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle, and I believe they also had a hand in Slaanesh, although of course the overwhelming bulk of Slaanesh's identity and existence is thanks to the Eldar. In fact I would say that every sentient race in the galaxy had an effect forming the Big Four, but humanity was the last straw - the one that broke the camel's back and created a whole lot of nastiness. Humanity gave them cohesive identities and sentience, but their power already existed within the Warp as terrible, vast and blind forces, perhaps manifesting themselves in lots of other deities and daemons throughout the galaxy.

The anthropocentric idea that the great adversaries of the 40K imagery are Jonny-come-latelies made entirely from just human angst during the middle ages is a bit underwhelming.

My rambling, late night two cents. :)

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 00:26
They are two separate warp entities. Two separate systems in the warp.

But that doesn't really gel with what we know about the way emotions affect the warp, flowing together with similar emotions from other sentient life-forms to form swirling groups of emotion and souls which we then label gods. This seems to lead fairly straightforwardly to the position that there will be gods formed from similar emotions, and that they will share similarities with each other. And it's also fairly well-established that it's the emotion that you're producing, and not the god whose name you're invoking, which is relevant. Think of all the people who fall to Chaos invoking the Emperor's name every step of the way.

If you have a different theory on the way things work in the warp, I'd like to hear it.


Just because two gods share superficial similarities does not automatically make them coming or part of the same entity. They are SEPARATE. The "monotheism" bit is this persistent inexplicable and nonsensical desire to try and lump gods, with even slight similarities, into one or to say they are "aspects" of one greater whole or some other linguistic gyration to insinuate they are not completely separate entities. It is a desire to try and create only one and only one god of a concept instead of accepting the polytheistic state of affairs where there are multiple gods as truly separate entities.

What do you think is the single God that I'm trying to reduce your polytheistic system to?

EDIT: And I'd just like to humbly supplicate myself before MvS, who summed up my thoughts on the issue far better than I could have...

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 01:02
The single god of rage that all other gods with even superficial similarity then get lumped as subsets of. Similarly lumping any god with even a superficial similarity to Tzeentch into the singular god of change/deceit/whatever. It is this precise desire to by default create "larger" or singular entities, supposedly because oen vast entity is somehow more complex or "satisfying", instead of accepting a truly polytheistic state of affairs where different pantheons and gods are in competition against each other to garner worship and souls. One god is not by default better than many gods.

The notion that Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch are relatively recent players to the cosmic scene, grown incomparably potent with the rise of humanity to top of the galactic scale is not that hard to accept once one lets go of the baseless assumption that somehow these gods HAVE to be ancient and HAVE to be all encompassing. Different pantheons have grown in popularity in the real world as their originating cultures have waxed.

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 02:01
The single god of rage that all other gods with even superficial similarity then get lumped as subsets of. Similarly lumping any god with even a superficial similarity to Tzeentch into the singular god of change/deceit/whatever. It is this precise desire to by default create "larger" or singular entities, supposedly because oen vast entity is somehow more complex or "satisfying", instead of accepting a truly polytheistic state of affairs where different pantheons and gods are in competition against each other to garner worship and souls. One god is not by default better than many gods.

The notion that Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch are relatively recent players to the cosmic scene, grown incomparably potent with the rise of humanity to top of the galactic scale is not that hard to accept once one lets go of the baseless assumption that somehow these gods HAVE to be ancient and HAVE to be all encompassing. Different pantheons have grown in popularity in the real world as their originating cultures have waxed.

I think you're getting far too caught up by the individual names gods get assigned. Warhammer Fantasy illustrates this point well: various Marauder tribes worship gods of decay, called Nurgle, Onogal, Nurglich, Neiglen and many other varied names. At the end of the day, though, they're worshipping the same god. It's the emotion which defines which god is being worshipped, not some arbitrary name.

So therefore, it doesn't really matter how long you think "Khorne" has been around. Warp gods are ancient - they've been around since the War in Heaven 60 million years ago, and you can be pretty sure that emotions of rage and anger of some sort have been flowing into the warp for as long as sentient life has been around.

Hive Mind 33
08-09-2007, 02:35
I think you're getting far too caught up by the individual names gods get assigned. Warhammer Fantasy illustrates this point well: various Marauder tribes worship gods of decay, called Nurgle, Onogal, Nurglich, Neiglen and many other varied names. At the end of the day, though, they're worshipping the same god. It's the emotion which defines which god is being worshipped, not some arbitrary name.

So therefore, it doesn't really matter how long you think "Khorne" has been around. Warp gods are ancient - they've been around since the War in Heaven 60 million years ago, and you can be pretty sure that emotions of rage and anger of some sort have been flowing into the warp for as long as sentient life has been around.

OF chores they worship the same god It all different names for Nurgle. Like God, Allah and Yahweh its all the same god with different names

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 02:45
OF chores they worship the same god It all different names for Nurgle. Like God, Allah and Yahweh its all the same god with different names

And yet you and Iracundus seem to have a problem with me saying that, for instance, Khaine and Khorne have deep underlying similarities?

redbaron998
08-09-2007, 03:10
Well the actual birth of Khorne is detaile in his Libra Chaotica book, a bunch of armies meet at a vally in whitch eight peaks where around. The blood overfilled the vally to make a sea

' From the boiling blood sea rose eight mighty creatures, each with the heads of dogs and the bodies of lions, and each one yoked with great chains of brass. They climbed forth eac mountain and behind them dragged upwards a new mountain from the sea, a mountain of bone and skulls that reached fully ten times the height of the eight peaks around it. Upon its sight, the soldiers of the battle took new heart and rose again from the gore-drenched earth to praise thier true lord while the kings and princes threw themselves down in fear as they recognised the true Skull Throne, of whichh their own had been the palest imitation. And atop the very summit, the embryonic-god screamed his name in a birth-cry that echoed and crashed from peak to peak and drove the cowardly mad even as it strengthened the worthy beyond mortal effort.

And the name was Kharneth, our Blood God Khorne.


Dont know if that helps but its a cool read

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 03:31
Except it's canonically stated that Khorne is NOT ancient and has NOT been around for 60 million years. Stop treating your assumption as canonical fact when it isn't. There have been gods of bloodshed before by different races, and the warp did get stirred up by the War in Heaven but those are different entities, and not Khorne. Khorne is a god of rage and bloodshed. Gods of rage and bloodshed are not necessarily Khorne. The distinction is there.

Khorne emerged as an entity with humanity's first bloodshed against humanity. Khaine was not Khorne. Khorne is the human derived god of bloodshed. Khaine was the Eldar god of war and bloodshed. They have similarities in so far as they both liked violence. That has about as much relevance as saying two people have similar jobs, have similar interests, and therefore that they must be one and the same person. Khorne is merely the latest in a long string of various racial gods. Break out of that monotheistic mindset where there exists the assumption there can be one and only one god of a concept with just different names.

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 04:08
Except it's canonically stated that Khorne is NOT ancient and has NOT been around for 60 million years. Stop treating your assumption as canonical fact when it isn't. There have been gods of bloodshed before by different races, and the warp did get stirred up by the War in Heaven but those are different entities, and not Khorne. Khorne is a god of rage and bloodshed. Gods of rage and bloodshed are not necessarily Khorne. The distinction is there.

Khorne emerged as an entity with humanity's first bloodshed against humanity. Khaine was not Khorne. Khorne is the human derived god of bloodshed. Khaine was the Eldar god of war and bloodshed. They have similarities in so far as they both liked violence. That has about as much relevance as saying two people have similar jobs, have similar interests, and therefore that they must be one and the same person. Khorne is merely the latest in a long string of various racial gods. Break out of that monotheistic mindset where there exists the assumption there can be one and only one god of a concept.

It's incredibly simplistic to think of the Chaos Gods, or any warp-entities, as people. They're gigantic ripples of emotion in the warp. As I pointed out in my last post, it's the emotion generated which is important, not the entirely arbitrary name which gets assigned to the nebulous cloud of emotion. Thinking about 40k gods in the context of "real" historical gods, like the Greek pantheon is a little misguided. The Chaos Gods don't go around acting like actual people, talking with one another, interacting with the world and so on in anything but an exceptionally metaphoric sense.

If you really think that there's actually a dog-headed guy sitting on a throne of skulls somewhere in the warp and he is what we mean when we talk about Khorne, that's fair enough, but it's certainly not an interpretation which makes much sense to me.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 04:14
Except the Chaos gods DO go around and talk to people so they are at the same time entities and warp vortices. To ignore these canonical details of their behavior is incredibly simple and misguided. Read the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex where Tzeentch speaks directly to Magnus (p. 107, 2nd column, 1st paragraph, last line). Not a Tzeentchian Daemon Prince, but Tzeentch himself. Daemons which are extensions of their gods reach out and tear people to shreds in a very literal and hardly metaphorical sense. The Chaos gods dictate arbitrary rules to their daemon world champions and place wagers over the outcomes of these battles, and even go so far as to invite rival Powers to invade so that they can have a contest (2nd ed. Chaos Codex, p. 131, 2nd column, last paragraph). They invite, haggle, and wager over these daemon world battles like compulsive gamblers. All these show the Chaos gods do behave and act like real life pantheons, even while they exist as systems within the warp.

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 04:28
Well, again we're getting into the realm of "Khorne really does sit on a throne on a mountain of skulls and drink blood in the warp", which is just one interpretation of what's going on in the background material. Suffice it to say I don't think it's a particularly imaginative or interesting one. If you don't want to entertain even the slightest possibility that what is going on in the warp is much more conceptual and abstract than a bunch of people sitting on brass thrones or whatever collecting souls, then that's up to you.

EDIT: "The Blood God sits upon a brass throne atop a mountain of skulls. The remains are those of his victims and his champions both, for he cares not whose blood is shed in his name. The skull mount forms an island amidst a vast ocean of blood: the living sacrificial essence of every victim of violent death throughout the ages." 3rd ed Chaos Space Marines Codex, p47. How much of that do you think is meant absolutely literally?

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 04:33
Khorne is that and he is a warp storm at the same time. Both imagery is valid because Khorne's throne is the focus of the warp storm that is also Khorne. Just because a god is a warp storm doesn't preclude them from behaving like an entity.

You may not think it imaginative or interesting but it's canonical as proven and therefore correct in GW's fictional universe.

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 04:42
"Canonical" just means "part of the GW canon" - ie official background. Nowhere does that mean you have to take everything completely literally - in fact it often makes no sense whatsoever to do so, for example in the "Khorne sits on a throne on a mountain of skulls" case.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 04:52
Canonical means it is the state of the GW universe as dictated by their creative people. It is what is true within the universe. Canonical means it really was the Emperor that defeated Horus, that Sanguinius did really die on the battle barge, and that Khorne does sit on a throne of brass on top of a mountain of skulls. That is the central focus of Khorne who is at the same time a warp vortex. Those skulls may not be the literal skulls of his worshippers and slain enemies but they are warp matter fascimiles created by Khorne. If a mortal were to somehow be transported to the central focus of the Khorne warp vortex, and not be torn to shreds, that is what he'd see and be able to interact with.

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 05:02
Canonical means it is the state of the GW universe as dictated by their creative people. It is what is true within the universe. Canonical means it really was the Emperor that defeated Horus, that Sanguinius did really die on the battle barge, and that Khorne does sit on a throne of brass on top of a mountain of skulls. That is the central focus of Khorne who is at the same time a warp vortex. Those skulls may not be the literal skulls of his worshippers and slain enemies but they are warp matter fascimiles created by Khorne. If a mortal were to somehow be transported to the central focus of the Khorne warp vortex, and not be torn to shreds, that is what he'd see and be able to interact with.

Oh no, but those skulls must really be literal, physical skulls! The quote from the Codex says so: "[the] remains are those of his victims and his champions both"! That's what the creative people at GW dictated, who are you to say they're only warp matter fascimiles created by Khorne? It's canonical, you can see it right there in the Codex!

:rolleyes:

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 05:44
Quote your reference and page numbers please.

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 05:57
Quote your reference and page numbers please.

I did in post 109. 3rd ed Chaos Space Marines Codex, p47.

The quote says that the skulls of Khorne's throne are those of his victims and his champions. Khorne's victims and champions are physical beings with physical skulls.

Of course, there's certainly nothing in the quote which would lead you to the interpretation that the skulls are merely metaphoric or not to be taken absolutely literally, right? :rolleyes:

So your view seems to me to be that Khorne's throne is upon a mountain of real physical skulls on a sea of real, physical blood, which is itself at the centre of a swirling warp vortex of emotions. Isn't that a bit odd to you?

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 05:58
Wow. I missed a hell of a pedantic **** fight in here.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 06:06
Considering it is a universe where one of the best ways to fight someone is to beat him with an axe instead of shooting him, where spaceship torpedoes are loaded by hands yanking on lots of chains, 3 eyed humans navigate starships, people throw lightning bolts with their minds, 7 feet tall genetically engineered warriors spit acid and eat their enemies' brains to get intel data, and where priests sprinkle incense and oil over machines, not really.

Warp matter can be as real as physical matter. A manifested Bloodletter can eviscerate someone with his Hellblade, which is entirely warp matter, and the daemon is capable of interacting with other normal matter in physical ways such as being blown to bits by shells or conversely being able to lift and throw a rock.

MvS
08-09-2007, 15:13
It is this precise desire to by default create "larger" or singular entities, supposedly because oen vast entity is somehow more complex or "satisfying", instead of accepting a truly polytheistic state of affairs where different pantheons and gods are in competition against each other to garner worship and souls. One god is not by default better than many gods.
This is not what I am saying.

I am talking about the nature of what 'many gods' means in 40K, not denying that other gods exist.

If we just accept that there are lots of gods with cosmetic similarities but who are otherwise unrelated, this is indeed more of a Classical Greek way of doing things (as an example). I don't find this as interesting or satisfying as the models discussed previously because they are cut, dry and finite. It also doesn't seem to fit with how the metaphysics of the 40K universe seem to work.

If Chaos is supposed to represent the idea of 'Man Against Himself' (as Priestly has mentioned often enough), then on one hand we have the idea that if it was not for the emotional excess and intellectual failing of intelligent sentient life in Realspace we would have the dangerous Id of Chaos. The flipside of this is what I've been trying to describe previously.

Just as Chaos is 'man against himself', we must also accept that humanity isn't just destructive and contradictory. It has other drives and emotions that are reflected within the Wap. So just as we can say 'man against himself' with regard to the Warp's effects in Realspace, we can also say that there is an element of 'Chaos against itself' because Chaos is a reflection of the complexity of intelligent life.

I prefer the idea of a Warp vortex of Anger, which when taken as a massive whole represents and promotes unadulterated rage, but when looked at through a notional microscope has lots of lesser vortices within its vastness that represent subtly different and/or limited variations of the experience of anger, sometimes seemingly at odds with the vast broiling rage of the super-massive vortex of anger they exist as whorls within. Likewise, I like the idea that the super-massive Vortex itself has an identity that shifts along depending on what the dominant psychic picture/expectation 'transmitted' from Realspace.

I like the idea that part of the tension between the Chaos Gods and mortals isn't just so that the gods can collect souls and promote their defining emotions in order to empower themselves more. I like to think that an equally important part of the tension is in how the identities of the Big Four are formed. They don't want to be restricted or restrained into more controlled deities. They don't want to be personified into entities that serve the inhabitants of the mortal universe. They want to remain free. They want to be entirely self determining and they don't want their pruposes and nature dictated by the concepts, worship, or even controlled emotions of mortals.

If all mortals in Realspace become in complete control of themselves (their thoughts, feelings and actions), then even if they can't get rid of the Big Four immediately, their very specific and controlled expectations could at least effect how the Big Four interact with them, making the Big Four less extreme and dangerous, IN EFFECT if not in their core identities to start with.

So here we have Chaos against itself. The battle isn't between just mortals and Warp entities for the survival of mortals. It is also a battle between perceptions - the self-perception of the Chaos Gods as being whatever they choose to be while continually growing in power, and the perception of the gods transmitted and imposed from the all the mortals in Realspace.

Khaine is a god but is also, at his best, a servant of the Eldar in the sense that he exists to protect them and show them how to fight for survival. Khorne could be the same base as Khaine, but without the controls and in complete self-control - so his actions, appearance and the things he promotes and exists for are not dictated by the expectations and faith of mortals in Realspace (in this case, the Eldar).

So Khorne could wage war against mortals in order to throw down the opposition and also to promote those things that empower him, but he could also wage war against Khaine - NOT because Khaine is a completely separate entity with only cosmetic similarities to Khorne, but because Khaine is an identity born of a way of seeing and experiencing the Vortex of anger within the Warp that focusses and limits its full broiling potential - focusses and limits that Khorne would not want to be restricted by and to.

Khorne would want to destroy the point-of-view that is Khaine, because the point-of-view is the identity of Khaine. Getting rid of all mortal knowledge of Khaine would not harm the identity of Khorne nor would it harm the Vortex that is the bricks and mortar upon which Khaine and Khorne are built.

I prefer a more schizophrenic vision of Chaos, where Khorne can sometimes be honourable and where Khaine can sometimes be an insane psychopath as the influences of each identity 'leak' into the other.


The notion that Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch are relatively recent players to the cosmic scene, grown incomparably potent with the rise of humanity to top of the galactic scale is not that hard to accept once one lets go of the baseless assumption that somehow these gods HAVE to be ancient and HAVE to be all encompassing. Different pantheons have grown in popularity in the real world as their originating cultures have waxed.

I agree with all of that.

I would just say that the vortices of different emotions have grown steadily over the billennia and that as one god 'dies', it is only the identity and specific purpose of that god that has dissipated. Another identity may become imposed upon the Vortex, or an amalgam identity may rise to the surface of the Vortex by itself, or the identity and purpose of a lesser Vortex within the greater one might become ascendent. There are lots and lots of possibilities.

Hive Mind 33
08-09-2007, 22:21
But Khaine and Khrone are sperate gods. you are thinking in the monotheistic way of everyone else other than Iracundus and i. Think about this the Nightbringer is a god of death . Then why on earth would the eldar be making another god of death(Y'nnead) if they are the same. answer because the warhammer universes are polytheistic.

MvS
08-09-2007, 22:41
I'm not thinking in a 'monotheistic' way. First i recognise that there are many separate gods, I have even stated quite clearly that even within one Warp Vortex there are possibilities for multitudes of identities, motivations and effects.

The Khorne/Khaine debate has been done to death anyway. Just search through the warhammer fantasy background forum for a sample.

EDIT:

Also Nightbringer is a god of death in the sense that he is perceived as a god and kills everyone. Ynead is a Warp God that will hopefully protect the souls of dead Eldar. Completely different.

Hive Mind 33
08-09-2007, 23:02
saying they come from the same vortex is saying they are the same in which it would be one god.

MvS
08-09-2007, 23:23
No, it isn't. Or at least not in the simple terms given.

Identity and behaviour is the point here, not where the different identities get their power from.

Anyway, 'god' is the term that creates trouble. It comes with too much baggage. How I have described the gods is relatively 'canon', for whatever that means in the case of GW mythology...

codicium_aeternum
08-09-2007, 23:33
Found the blurb. Realms of Chaos, The Lost and the Damned, page 176. One short stinking paragraph for all three chaos gods.

"Khorne was the first.....and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood.....Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents.....By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these powers had awoken..."

GW wasn't as specific as I recalled, those were just my impressions of the events in my earlier post.

Hopefully GW will revisite the births of these three sometime.


awoken... exactly, perhaps they "awoke" or took notice of each race as a major thing happened in each races development, and they are simply ever lasting facets of the warp... i mean, you dont suggest to be understanding of the warp in its entirety do you......heretic

Hive Mind 33
09-09-2007, 01:05
Think of it like this man comes into being his psych now becomes part of the warp. Now man meets man They hate each other because they are different. now this hate creates small vortex with in the warp, which slowly increases over time . Now war brings despair this creates another small vortex in the warp which becomes bigger over time. Now with despair comes hope Hope makes another small vortex. This Three small vortexes are Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. Now over time man's actions make the vortexes grow in size. Lets remember most races fell so man was the most dominant force for some time. So in that way man created the 3 chaos gods. Like the Orks created Gork and Mork, and the Eldar made their gods. Its really not that hard to believe that this is the most possible way for our gods of the warp to come into being. Sience awoke can mean to come or bring to an awareness; become cognizant. conscious.

DantesInferno
09-09-2007, 01:11
Think of it like this man comes into being his psych now becomes part of the warp. Now man meets man They hate each other because they are different. now this hate creates small vortex with in the warp, which slowly increases over time . Now war brings despair this creates another small vortex in the warp which becomes bigger over time. Now with despair comes hope Hope makes another small vortex. This Three small vortexes are Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. Now over time man's actions make the vortexes grow in size. Lets remember most races fell so man was the most dominant force for some time. So in that way man created the 3 chaos gods. Like the Orks created Gork and Mork, and the Eldar made their gods. Its really not that hard to believe that this is the most possible way for our gods of the warp to come into being. Sience awoke can mean to come or bring to an awareness; become cognizant. conscious.

Yeah, the only problem with this is that it ignores the fact that there were 60 million years worth of sentient life producing emotions of rage, despair, hope and so on before mankind came along. And even when mankind did emerge as the dominant species on our own planet, there was a whole galaxy's worth of Eldar and other species providing the warp with emotion. Mankind's been the dominant species for 10 000 years of a 60 000 000 year period.

Hive Mind 33
09-09-2007, 01:29
I only dealt with man but it works for every race.

DantesInferno
09-09-2007, 01:48
I only dealt with man but it works for every race.

It just doesn't fit with what we know about the 40k mythos to suggest that every single race has completely compartmentalised gods, independent from all others. Slaanesh was born from the Eldar Fall, and yet is now a god for humans. Lots of aliens around worship Khorne and co as well.

Hive Mind 33
09-09-2007, 02:16
It just doesn't fit with what we know about the 40k mythos to suggest that every single race has completely compartmentalised gods, independent from all others. Slaanesh was born from the Eldar Fall, and yet is now a god for humans. Lots of aliens around worship Khorne and co as well.

Slaanesh is a god of self indulgence, decadence, excess, sex, pleasure of course it wants human followers it want wants more power. and lets not forget not many eldar follow that path anymore.

Just because lots of salines does not mean Khrone and co were made from by humans. If they have a powerful warp presence the gods could whisper to them. In that way an alien race does not even need emotions just a presence in the warp. What is know about these races anyway im sure its not enough to jump to the comcluison that they at one time did not have their own "gods" in the warp who fell.

Iracundus
09-09-2007, 05:02
Actually the background does support each race having their own gods. The Eldar had their pantheon. The Orks have Gork and Mork. The humans have Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch. Humans are currently one of the if not the dominant species so their gods are the most potent. Orks may be more numerous and their gods more indestructible but the fractious nature of the race means their gods don't really do much. That these gods originated from one race doesn't preclude them getting worshippers from another. Slaanesh in particular has hopped the fence to feeding on humans primarily with a fondness for the Eldar dessert. Get the difference? Origin doesn't mean locked in forever to just the one type of soul. The Big 3 are human gods, but they get the occasional xenos worshippers. Slaanesh is an Eldar god but has switched over to primarily human feeding.

Whatever alien races came before humans rose to prominence, and which had sufficently strong emotions would have spawned their own gods, which is not the same as Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch. Whatever these gods were or are is irrelevant in the "current" 40K as they are either dead, or they remain smalltime players in the galactic scene next to the might of the currently dominant Big 4. Again, get the difference. No one is saying there were never any Chaos gods before humanity. However they have since been supplanted by the current lot.

Having totally separate gods doesn't rule out the whole theme of Man vs. himself or Warp vs. itself. The very fact the warp spawns structured gods like the Eldar pantheon pre-Fall in addition to the more negative destructive entities show the internal conflict within the warp itself without having to invoke gods being all part of each other. The gods in 40K are finite entities, albeit very large finite entities, that are still in struggle for status and power with each other. It fits perfectly with how the 40K metaphysics work because each god is in a struggle with the others to maintain the steady intake of souls and worship that it feeds from. Those unable to do so fade away or are forcibly overwhelmed by others like the Eldar gods. Instead of having trying to get bits of both worlds by ostensibly claiming polytheism but then trying to have all gods be aspects of the same larger system (ie monotheism under another guise), the more sensible approach is to accept all these deities as separate entities, separate vortices within the warp.

DantesInferno
09-09-2007, 05:42
Whatever alien races came before humans rose to prominence, and which had sufficently strong emotions would have spawned their own gods, which is not the same as Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch. Whatever these gods were or are is irrelevant in the "current" 40K as they are either dead, or they remain smalltime players in the galactic scene next to the might of the currently dominant Big 4. Again, get the difference. No one is saying there were never any Chaos gods before humanity. However they have since been supplanted by the current lot.

The problem is that it is not the name of the god which defines the nature of the god. This seems to be the big misconception in the thread. The names are completely arbitrary, and it doesn't matter whether you're calling your god "The Emperor", if you've got Khornate emotions, then that's where they're going. There were gods of rage, hope, despair and so on in the warp long before humanity came along. The case of Slaanesh shows us that gods can change to reflect the changing character of the emotions which constitute them in the warp. What exactly is meant to be the distinction between Slaanesh turning from an Eldar-dominated diet of emotion to a human-dominated diet, and the Warp-Vortex-Formerly-Known-As-Khorne changing from a *insert name of sentient species here*-dominated diet of emotion to a human-dominated one? Surely this only proves a problem if you're obsessing about the actual names that we're assigning the warp vortices rather than their evolving nature, changing to reflect the emotions of sentient life in real-space?


Instead of having trying to get bits of both worlds by ostensibly claiming polytheism but then trying to have all gods be aspects of the same larger system (ie monotheism under another guise), the more sensible approach is to accept all these deities as separate entities, separate vortices within the warp.

But the warp gods are part of the same larger system! They're all part of the swirling pool of emotion that is the warp. That doesn't make the system monotheistic by any means. The fact that they're all part of the swirling mass of souls and feelings which make up the warp does make it a bit implausible to say they warp gods are completely independent, any more than two neighbouring cyclones formed and moved around by the one weather system. Sure, we call them "Hurricane Lucy" and "Hurricane Jane", but that's just an abstraction for what's actually going on - a huge number of air molecules are flying around to create macroscopic phenomena.

Iracundus
09-09-2007, 06:06
That is only if you assume a priori that they change which is NOT a given. The difference being that Slaanesh would have died if he had not been able to establish a base of worshippers among humans. There was no guarantee of any sort of god of excess existing for humans. The Chaos power of Khorne would wither and die if he could not establish a base of worshippers in whatever future race replacing humanity. Whatever god that race then generates would not be Khorne, in name, identity, or behavior.

Not all gods of rage are the same. That is the mistake you're making. Just because race A has god A, and race B comes along worshipping a god B of the same ideal, doesn't automatically mean god A morphs into god B. It means there are two gods.

The warp vortices that are each individual deity are in the warp yes but that doesn't make them all suddenly just subsets of each other. They are subsets of the warp but that statement is as meaningless as saying all hurricaines are parts of the atmosphere. Rather what is being objected to is the contention that all hurricaines of a particular ideal are subsets of one larger storm system. Again read carefully and distinguish the difference.

DantesInferno
09-09-2007, 06:33
That is only if you assume a priori that they change which is NOT a given. The difference being that Slaanesh would have died if he had not been able to establish a base of worshippers among humans. There was no guarantee of any sort of god of excess existing for humans. The Chaos power of Khorne would wither and die if he could not establish a base of worshippers in whatever future race replacing humanity. Whatever god that race then generates would not be Khorne, in name, identity, or behavior.

Again, it's not the fact that you've got a bunch of worshippers who call you "Khorne" which is what defines you as the Blood God Khorne. It's the fact that there are a bunch of people in realspace who go around psychopathically murdering people, generating emotions of anger and hate which swirl together in the warp to form what we call "Khorne".

The fact that a lot of humans were producing emotions of stimulation, desire for perfection, pleasure and so on is what guaranteed there would be a god of excess existing in the warp, not the fact that some warp god decided it would be a good idea to snack on humans - it's getting things the wrong way around.


Not all gods of rage are the same. That is the mistake you're making. Just because race A has god A, and race B comes along worshipping a god B of the same ideal, doesn't automatically mean god A morphs into god B. It means there are two gods.

Isn't that exactly what you're saying happens in the case of Slaanesh? There's no Slaanesh(Eldar) and Slaanesh(Human). There's the one god which changed character as a result of the changing influx of emotions from realspace.


The warp vortices that are each individual deity are in the warp yes but that doesn't make them all suddenly just subsets of each other. They are subsets of the warp but that statement is as meaningless as saying all hurricaines are parts of the atmosphere. Rather what is being objected to is the contention that all hurricaines of a particular ideal are subsets of one larger storm system. Again read carefully and distinguish the difference.

But Khaine and Khorne clearly are part of the same larger storm system - they're both gods of rage and anger, just with slight shifts in emphasis to represent their differing focuses. What other conclusion could you possibly arrive at?

Ardathair
09-09-2007, 15:51
awoken... exactly, perhaps they "awoke" or took notice of each race as a major thing happened in each races development, and they are simply ever lasting facets of the warp... i mean, you dont suggest to be understanding of the warp in its entirety do you......heretic

:wtf:?

I was quoting a GW published article.

Apparently your knowledge of the warp exceedes GW's.

MvS
09-09-2007, 18:25
There's a big difference between the effect of worshippers and the effect of raw emotions upon the Warp. It is emotions, souls, soul fragments and various notions that are drawn like-to-like in the Warp and then whip it up into vortices (not LITERAL vortices you understand, but the analogy is the best we have).

It is the gathering of like to like that creates, for want of better terms, the 'genes', 'nervous systems', 'bones', 'blood' and 'muscle mass' of all gods - again, this isn't literal, but the analogy holds if you just bend your mind to it a little.

These Warp bodies, these embryonic gods, are not conscious in a way that mortals might understand. They are titantic empaths, drawn to the emotions and ideas that form their metaphysical bodies and fill their metaphysical lungs. More than this, by merit of their presence within the minds, souls or even physical proximity of sentient mortals these proto-gods actually encourage those emotions and ideas that form them. They don't exactly choose to do this initially, it just happens. It's just the way the Warp/Realspace interact, say.

None of this requires worship to happen. None of it.

Worship, by my reading of the imagery, gives these pre-sensate gods identity. Worship projects personality onto these massive blind forces of metaphysical Warp-nature. Mortals are wont to personify certain processes and feelings into spirits and gods, and if we already have vast psychic vortices of these emotions that are drawn to people and events that are particularly strong in similar emotions, well then supernatural effects might be observed, and from here it is a tiny step for mortals observing these supernatursal effects to imagine and personify a deity, with an identity, personality, will and consciousness. In a sense mortal woshippers project a thinking personality onto Warp Vortices, thereby giving these vortices a conscious will of their own, other than their 'natural' drives.

So we humans have natural drives to feed ourselves and sleep, so do Warp vortices in their own way. We humans can also create our own meanings and make decisions that are largely independent from our natural drives, so can Warp Vortices with an identity - so a 'God', as far as it matters to us here.

An awakened and personified god will want to keep itself alive, and more, it will want to grow in power while in competition with other gods. So not only does it feed and need emotions and souls as always, but now it also wants to keep and deepen its consciousness, identity and way of being. It wants worshippers because they spread the drives and inclinations that generate the emotions and ideas that build their god. They also dedicate their souls to their god, giving an assured 'meal' after they die, and the sheer weight of their belief in the particular nature and identity of their god further galvanises that god's personality, consciousness and purposes.

If like attracts like within the Warp, it is not enough to say that there are thousands of gods of anger, as an example. All anger that filters into the Warp is gradually drawn together into one massive pool. Likewise, all souls or soul fragments that are consumed with rage will inevitably draw together or draw to themselves Warp entities that gain particular sustenance from rage and anger, which ultimately are part of the same 'anger-region' in the Warp anyway.

Khorne is the dominant personality of the impossibly vast Vortex/Region/Storm/Paradigm (etc) of anger, rage and related concepts and feeling within the Warp. He isn't the only personality, but he is the ultimate master of the Vortex he personifies in this Age of the 40K galaxy. Something similar can be said for Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh - they are the dominant identities (by a long, long way) of the Vortices they personify.

What, we might ask, about the earliest days before the Warp was filled with storms and vortices? What about gods that were worshipped, and even invented, by mortals before there was much feedback from the Warp? Well I think the Eldar gods in the very earliest days are good examples of this. The Eldar, like most other mortals races, identified certain natural processes with divine beings. Because they were so strongly psychic, the Eldar began to create entities within the Warp through their imagination, faith, thoughts and practice.

These entities were the first sentient daemons/gods of the Warp. They were nowhere near as powerful as the Big Four in the 40th millennia, they were not formed from untold trillions of souls, emotions and ideas over countless millions of years, but they were powerful enough in their own way.

I believe that it is from these earliest sentiences within the Warp that the seeds of other, greater sentiences grew. I think Khaine was the more limited and controlled proto-form of what is now Khorne, before the Vortex of anger became vast and completely uncontrollable in its entirety. I like to think that Vaul and Morai Heg (being the gods of ingenuity/craftsmanship and fate/fortune telling) were 'minor' sentient vortices that swirled around and added to a larger vortex that would one day awaken as the master of complexity and fate, Tzeentch.

These identities continued to exist as their own beings with their own purposes for billennia, even while the Vortices they personified grew larger and swirled in and out of each other, and were perhaps even subsumed into a larger Vortex. It was only when the birth of Slaanesh shattered the minds and souls of trillions of Eldar that the identies of Vaul and Morai Heg were destroyed. The vortices that these identities were projected onto by the Eldar didn't just vanish, but were absorbed by the larger vortex of ingenuity etc, being Tzeentch.

I see it as a goal (not necessarily THE goal) of the Big Four Chaos powers to eventually subsume all other independent personalities within their greater selves, because they don't really want separate and even contradictory personalities within themselves - so they don't want the fingers and arms of their divine bodies choosing to behave in a way that harms (or just slows the growth) the rest of the divine body.

Iracundus
10-09-2007, 03:49
And that is again the hidden monotheism within the outward declaration of acknowledging the polytheism of 40K. Even though there is verbal statement of saying other entities exist, it is at the same time saying they are all subsets, aspects (even if contradictory), of the one Chaos god of a particular ideal. There is still at the heart a drive to push things towards all being part of one singular entity or being in the a priori assumption that this is somehow better than the situation of a multitude of truly independent gods. It is the equivalent of Christian missionaries in the ancient past saying to tribesman that their old gods were all really just aspects of the one Judeo-Christian god. It's not truly polytheism. It's monotheism with some linguistic gymnastics.

The bit about Slaanesh is again being misinterpreted. Slaanesh was an Eldar god born by consuming most of the Eldar race in one go. There was no human equivalent god at the time. That is different from the situation I presented where race A worships god A and race B worships god B, both gods having the same ideal. In the second situation, there would be two gods. In the first situation, there was only the one god when the dust settled, that then chose to market itself to humans hence why it established itself as THE god of excess among humans. If humans had on their own started generating a god of their own this would have been a separate entity.

MvS
10-09-2007, 10:57
Well however we choose to view it and whatever correlations we want to make from it, this is the mythology of the 40K universe as was described in Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness, and of course as has since been described in more recent publications.

Frankly I don't see at all how the mutliple 'vortices' that have become sentient within the Warp can be referred to as monotheism. It doesn't tally at all with monotheism as a concept. That said, if they can be viewed that way after a bit of conceptual gymnastics... so what? I don't understand the problem.

If there are still multiple personalities, even in conflict with each other, appearing to mortals as multiple gods, what does it matter if the very esoteric explanation of these gods in their othwerwise impossible to know 'natural' state can be described as a form of monotheism (which, I'd just like to say again, isn't the case by any reading that I have made of the imagery)?

A billion separate Gods unrelated to each other or a billion inter-connected and sometimes contradictory 'gods' reflecting the internal conflict of Chaos (NOT the Warp per se) and the mortal mind. I much prefer the latter.

Finally, if we accept what is said throughout the imagery that like attracts like within the Warp, inevitably similar feelings, concepts and even entities would be drawn together - not necessarily mashing into nothing, but certainly influencing and informing each other's purposes and practices in some ways, even if only on the periphery of their identities.

Anyway, the many-in-one idea predates Christian Trinitarian monotheism. Just look at the Crone, Mother, Maiden of the Fates, or the Morrigan for that matter. There are many other examples. The complexity of these notions cannot be summed up as simple 'monotheism', unless of course we have a very broad 'fudge' definition of monotheism, but then that starts to undermine the concept on monotheism in the first place.

Iracundus
10-09-2007, 11:50
It is monotheism in that all martial gods are being lumped into being a subset of Khorne and any god of intelligence or secrets is being lumped into being a facet of Tzeentch. It is the inability to accept there can be more than one and only one single god of a concept with everything else being subsumed and brushed off as merely a subset or contradictory fragment of the one single god of that concept. That's what all those linguistic gyrations boil down to: that there are no real gods of war or bloodshed other than Khorne as everything else just gets brushed off as a little subpart of Khorne being contradictory, etc...

It is an attempt to reduce things down to one god per concept, and it is a lack of imagination to be constrained thus to such singular interpretations instead of being able to accept a multitude of truly independent gods which is what true polytheism entails. Having the "all in one" is showing the inability to think beyond the tired old rut of there being only one god.

The warp is a sea of energy rife with entities trying to climb or maintain themselves at the top of a vicious food chain. There is no higher meaning in it. Trying to have things be neat and tidy with one and only one god per ideal is not a true reflection of the dog eat dog Darwinian cycle of the warp.

MvS
10-09-2007, 20:16
It is monotheism in that all martial gods are being lumped into being a subset of Khorne and any god of intelligence or secrets is being lumped into being a facet of Tzeentch.

Well even if we accept that there is only one uber-god of war in simplistic terms, we still have at least one uber-god of hope/complexity etc, despair and pleasure. So there are four separate super entities. This isn't monotheism.


It is the inability to accept there can be more than one and only one single god of a concept with everything else being subsumed and brushed off as merely a subset or contradictory fragment of the one single god of that concept.

For some perhaps. For me I am quite happy to have multiple 'gods' eminating from one super-massive Warp vortex with lots of other smaller votices within it and lots of other intersections with other super-massive vortices. No brush offs.


That's what all those linguistic gyrations boil down to: that there are no real gods of war or bloodshed other than Khorne as everything else just gets brushed off as a little subpart of Khorne being contradictory, etc...

No not really. If that simplistic idea is what has come across in anything I've written then obviously I've not done a good job explaining what I mean.


It is an attempt to reduce things down to one god per concept

No, because Khaine and Khorne represent different emotions and ideas within the general vortex of emotions and ideas of anger and the desire to commit violence.


and it is a lack of imagination to be constrained thus to such singular interpretations instead of being able to accept a multitude of truly independent gods which is what true polytheism entails.

Two points here:

1. Like attracting like into massive vortices is about as 'canon' as we have for GW mythology/theology.

2. I think that lots of gods a'la Romans vs. Norse pantheons with relatively minor deities pursuing their ethnocentric whims only within the mortal realms populated by their own worshippers is limited and lacking complexity or a broad imagination.

Independence of will and purpose doesn't have to imply independence of force. The gods appear as we perceive them and constrain them with expectation. Why else would the Chaos gods need planets full of 'prayer gangs' worshipping them? To keep their identity and independent existence as dominant.


Having the "all in one" is showing the inability to think beyond the tired old rut of there being only one god.

Well with respect I think that shows a lack of understanding about the complexity of monotheistic theology and the philosophical thought around it, but also is a little flawed because even by the limited terms given, we have at least four, if not possibly five gods - the Big Four and perhaps the Emperor/nascent Star Child. This is not monotheism.


The warp is a sea of energy rife with entities trying to climb or maintain themselves at the top of a vicious food chain. There is no higher meaning in it.

Indeed!

Although we could also say that the Warp or Chaos Realm has as much higher meaning as is projected upon it by mortals, because 'higher meaning' is an idea and the Warp is a place of idea and emotion.


Trying to have things be neat and tidy with one and only one god per ideal is not a true reflection of the dog eat dog Darwinian cycle of the warp.

Come on Iracundus, the ideas put forward in this thread are anything but 'neat'. Also, 'realworld' Darwinism is not appropriate for the fantasy environment that is the impossible non-realm of raw emotion and thought, populated by entities of a type that are so bizarre and vast in scope that mortals within the fictional universe in question can relate to them only gods and daemons.

To reduce this fantastical mythology into terms that can be described as a sort of Darwinism is I think more an attempt to impose 'realworld bias' into the fantasy imagery of gods and daemons than any misguided identification of doing the same with supposedly real-world ideas of monotheism (as has been suggested previously in this thread).

However, even were we to accept a Darwinist approach, there is no reason why competition to become the dominant identity within one massive warp vortex could not comply with this if we want it to.

There is, I feel, a risk that a distaste or boredom for discourses of 'realworld monotheism' might encourage knee-jerk reactions against anything that one might think smacks of this within 40K, even though there is nothing mentioned in this thread that relates to 'realworld monotheism'.

It is, to me, more interesting to see Chaos gods that may be worshipped as saviours and 'good' things (like Chaos gods used to be in older imagery), because to a degree it is what the believer brings to the feast that makes the party. Without this we are more likely to start thinking of un 40K 'good' Eldar gods and 'bad' Chaos gods, which, for me, is a bit dull.

Kage2020
10-09-2007, 21:30
To reduce this fantastical mythology into terms that can be described as a sort of Darwinism is I think more an attempt to impose 'realworld bias' into the fantasy imagery of gods and daemons than any misguided identification of doing the same with supposedly real-world ideas of monotheism (as has been suggested previously in this thread).
Good point, but just a reminder that even real-world Darwinism doesn't really subscribe to the (currently interpreted) reality of the situation. There is no real reason that you cannot have competing entities for a given 'concept.'

<reads on>

Oh, you got to that before me. Darn you and your similar ideas. ;)


Without this we are more likely to start thinking of un 40K 'good' Eldar gods and 'bad' Chaos gods, which, for me, is a bit dull.
Agreed. In some ways, and if you will forgive me, it is akin to the somewhat cynical approach to the "Christian God" (in quotations for the assumed superior monotheism than to disparage the belief in any way; henceforth not used). Anyway, the point being the superficial reading of the Old and New Testament version of the Christian God -- the Abraham god of vengeance and destruction versus the Christian (New Testament) god, or at least messiah, of peace and understanding --can be viewed in multiple ways. Why is it not surprising that this can be attributed to the Chaos Powes?

(I understand that there are some generalisations there. I'm not trying to annoy people, though!)

For me, though, the warp remains the place of consensual, but subconscious, reality -- the place of nightmares. This does not preclude that one persons nightmare is another persons 'dream,' though I must admit that I personally believe in the commonality of "nightmare." Well, commonality insofar as every nightmare is individual even if based on given themes (thus the whole phenomenology thing).

Ah well. I'm just a kook.

Kage

Iracundus
10-09-2007, 21:37
It is monotheism in that one refuses to accept the existence of more than one god for a single concept. "There is only one god of rage. There can be only one god of despair etc..." Having multiple pantheons is far more true to the idea of the multitude of entities in the warp, than trying to build monolithic gods that everything is a subset of. There is again this bias that having more gods is supposedly by default less complex or less interesting than having one and only one true god per concept. What people have been espousing is "pseudo-polytheism", within the boundaries of a single concept.

Having multiple gods does not create the tired Manichean good vs evil split. The Eldar gods are not "good". They aren't even very "good" to their own people. Even those that are benign like Isha aren't likely to have much concern or care for races or things not related to their areas or people. They aren't going to care if the humans get slaughtered, but only in so far as it might impact the Eldar.

The warp seethes with entities, feeding on and from each other. There is no basis behind the assumption that just because it is not the real world that everything has to be bizarre and nonsensical. The fact the Chaos gods engage in very real world like behaviors, actions, and pleasures (like gambling) means the warp isn't divorced from real world principles applying.

MvS
10-09-2007, 22:34
So by this interpretation then I'm viewing the 40K mythology as a pseudo-polytheism.

Okay.

KAGE:

True, but such an interesting kook.

;)

FarseerMatt
11-09-2007, 00:00
Does the new Chaos codex have anything to say on the matter? My advanced order isn't due for another week...

Hive Mind 33
11-09-2007, 02:24
So by this interpretation then I'm viewing the 40K mythology as a pseudo-polytheism.

Okay.

KAGE:

True, but such an interesting kook.

;)
Yes because you are saying they are different but they come from the same vortex. Instead of the they are completely different and from different vortexes.


Does the new Chaos codex have anything to say on the matter? My advanced order isn't due for another week...
I have seen i and it says what it a always says they are human gods. Created by humans

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 02:35
Yes because you are saying they are different but they come from the same vortex. Instead of the they are completely different and from different vortexes.

Why does which vortex they come from mean the difference between polytheism and monotheism? "Gods" forming smaller vortices within larger warp-swirls can clearly have seperate identities, and that seems all that polytheism really entails.

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 04:47
Because it is saying they are still really just subparts of the one larger god. It is as I mentioned before analogous to the situation of Christian missionaries telling polytheists their gods are just subfacets of God. It isn't recognizing the polytheist view of multiple gods but is a copout of trying to subsume the multiple gods into just the one. It's merely a more politically sensitive way of going about it compared to just outright saying "Your multiple gods aren't real. Only my one god is real."

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 05:27
Because it is saying they are still really just subparts of the one larger god. It is as I mentioned before analogous to the situation of Christian missionaries telling polytheists their gods are just subfacets of God. It isn't recognizing the polytheist view of multiple gods but is a copout of trying to subsume the multiple gods into just the one. It's merely a more politically sensitive way of going about it compared to just outright saying "Your multiple gods aren't real. Only my one god is real."

No it isn't. There's a difference between saying that "Your gods don't exist at all" and "Your gods have discrete identities, but are swirling warp entities which exist as a part of the whole sea of emotions in the warp, and as such are part of a wider system".

And if you have a problem with the second of the two, that seems to be the way it is actually presented in the background.

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 06:01
Your last statement is not what is being contested here. The gods are separate vortices in the warp. What they are not are just bits of one god. The gods are part of the warp, not part of one god. Saying they are part of one god is the same as saying they don't really exist because what is said is that it's just the one god that's behind it all. There is a difference in that that you've repeatedly missed.

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 06:13
Your last statement is not what is being contested here. The gods are separate vortices in the warp. What they are not are just bits of one god. The gods are part of the warp, not part of one god. Saying they are part of one god is the same as saying they don't really exist because what is said is that it's just the one god that's behind it all. There is a difference in that that you've repeatedly missed.

Here's the problem: no one is saying that, for instance, Khaine is "just" part of Khorne. Sure, his warp vortex is part of the greater warp vortex of anger to which they both belong, but that in no way implies that his identity isn't a real one, or that Khorne is the god who is behind everything, or that there is really only one consciousness there which directs things around.

The fact that they both come from the one single greater swirl of emotions simply doesn't mean that there's only one god there.

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 06:20
It does though as it means they are ultimately the same. Saying one is wholly a part of the larger entity is equating the two as a single entity, with Khaine being basically written off as a fragment of Khorne. To say they are the same yet not the same, oen yet not one, is meaningless nonsensical linguistic gymnastics like the whole Trinity paradox.

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 06:30
It does though as it means they are ultimately the same. Saying one is wholly a part of the larger entity is equating the two as a single entity, with Khaine being basically written off as a fragment of Khorne. To say they are the same yet not the same, oen yet not one, is meaningless nonsensical linguistic gymnastics like the whole Trinity paradox.

But it doesn't mean they're ultimately the same! You only end up "writing off" Khaine as a fragment of Khorne if you completely misunderstand what MvS has been saying. There's absolutely nothing meaninglessly linguistic about saying that gods can exist as part of larger vortices of emotion.

Say that Hurricane Tracy is a hurricane within a larger storm system. That doesn't mean that Hurricane Tracy doesn't really exist, or the only thing that exists there is the larger storm system. It means exactly what it says: that Hurricane Tracy is a hurricane within a larger storm system.

Russell's teapot
11-09-2007, 08:23
There appears to be a semantic debate going on!

I thought I'd wade back in with a very simplistic view of Chaos, the 'vorticies' and the Gods' interaction as I see it - in the attachment below (please excuse the 'low res' version - computers aren't my thing...)

Chaos is broken down to a Venn diagram of 4 main emotions (simplistically in my digram of rage, dispair, hope & excess, although I appreciate that this does not fully describe them). Each of these overlaps with each other to a greater or lesser extend (note that my diagram does not claim to be to scale:p).

Within these 'vortecies' are further 'vortecies' (wheels within wheels if you will) of the Gods of 40k. Again these may overlap 2 emotions, however, for the diagram I have chose Khorne & Khaine as these seem to be the most discussed & the most black & white as to where they sit in the diagram. I believe that these 'vortecies' or Gods will overlap as to which emotions they will 'feed' from.

Obviously there will be more major vorticies, however, I have chosen for simplicity to show the 'Big Four', and all these will overlap.

This is how I feel the Gods work, I'm not going to touch the montheistic v's polytheistic until I've done some reading a to religiuos semantics (I shy away from such things in real life as an athiest).

Lord Fatwa
11-09-2007, 11:52
No offence is intended by this at all, Russell's Teapot, but there's just something about the idea of a 'Venn Diagram of Chaos' that strikes me as remarkably absurd... Like a Flow Chart of Mass Destruction... :P

That said, I like it... You will have people yelling at you about putting Khaine in there are well as a Chaos God, but those people just aren't thinking three dimensionally enough... ;) Although, one addition or change that I'd make is to whack a big circle in the middle for the worship of the Pantheon of Chaos Gods... In the middle because Undivided doesn't necessarily relate to every aspect of every part of every Chaos God, just the worship of Chaos in general...

MvS
11-09-2007, 12:15
Russell's Teapot:

The diagram is very similar to the one suggested by G. Thorpe, so I guess you're on the right track with regard to 'canon'. That said, in the current age Khorne would be a much larger proportion of the vortex of rage I would think.

I'd just like to say, however, that I forgot something during this thread. The imagery does have its 'canon', mutable and contradictory though it sometimes seems, the imagery is there to inspire us in our own enjoyment of the 40K hobby, whether that's wargaming, card games or roleplaying. It doesn't matter at the end of the day whether the 40K gods represent a 'true' polytheism or whatever, because they can represent and be whatever we want them to. It's not worth losing any sleep over.

Russell's teapot
11-09-2007, 12:20
No offence is intended by this at all, Russell's Teapot, but there's just something about the idea of a 'Venn Diagram of Chaos' that strikes me as remarkably absurd... Like a Flow Chart of Mass Destruction... :P

That said, I like it...

I know, I know, but it seemed the easiest way to show how I think that the Gods are inter-related. The title is a bit...well let's not get into that.. but it does show how I think that, in this example, Khorne & Khaine are manifestations of the emotion 'rage' etc. And that the worship of these gods means that another god can 'steal' the praise (hence the overlap between Khorne & Khaine).

Thank you... (i think ;))


You will have people yelling at you about putting Khaine in there are well as a Chaos God, but those people just aren't thinking three dimensionally enough... ;) Although, one addition or change that I'd make is to whack a big circle in the middle for the worship of the Pantheon of Chaos Gods... In the middle because Undivided doesn't necessarily relate to every aspect of every part of every Chaos God, just the worship of Chaos in general...

The diagram isn't necessarily of 'CHAOS', but is of the Warp. The emotions are expressed there in the vorticies, any Warp entity, be thay classified as a 'Chaos God', 'Eldar God' or whatever, are manifestly Warp 'beings', and therefore must have place somewhere in the diagram.

If the argument boils down to a semantic 'what do we call it?' the diagram still stands, but just change the names.

Re: the worship of Chaos undecided, I'd say the small overlap between them all fills that Gap - none of the 'Big 4' emotions/Gods get that much from it. While the worshiper base for undecided may be large but from the 'Gods' PoV, they would rather have specific worship as they don't have to fight the other Gods as hard to get the praise - therefore more bang for the buck (or power per praise unit).


I'd just like to say, however, that I forgot something during this thread. The imagery does have its 'canon', mutable and contradictory though it sometimes seems, the imagery is there to inspire us in our own enjoyment of the 40K hobby, whether that's wargaming, card games or roleplaying. It doesn't matter at the end of the day whether the 40K gods represent a 'true' polytheism or whatever, because they can represent and be whatever we want them to. It's not worth losing any sleep over.

Sage words indeed!