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View Full Version : Its legal but is it sporty.



Gimp
04-09-2007, 11:15
Saw an Empire guy the other day using a Gun Line :eyebrows:

But what he did was put his mages into his warmachines like his cannons and hellstorm rocket thingy and mortors. He would then cast spells unsually magic missiles and then check the range :wtf:

He then new the exact renge to which to fire his warmachines :eek:

Its legal (and the mage wont die if the machine missfires) but is it sporting its not like its hard to guess range any way.

theunwantedbeing
04-09-2007, 11:22
It's legal im afraid.
That being said,you need to remember that he has to make all guesses before he resolves any of them.If he measures anything before he has finished guessing then any machines he has yet to make a guess with cannot be fired that turn.

I suppose doing that may seem harsh but if he's a gunline player who is resorting to using his mages to generate the ranges he needs for his machines then its only fair you be extra harsh on him.

McBaine
04-09-2007, 11:24
I think it is not too hard... Cannons and Stonethrowers have always the element of Luck in it. You guess the range Perfectly, but the Artillery dice and/or Scatter dice could messing things up. And the Dwarfen Player in our Group is almost as exact as my measuring tape...
This Player makes his Warmachine only more interesting for killing with fast units because you get the points for a mage for free.

Dayhan
04-09-2007, 12:11
I play against an empire player who dose the same. What I do is make him measure no further than the max range of the spell from the wizard. OK it not hard to judge that little extra distance but it might make a difference. I can see how a player could cast a spell on a unit he knows is out of range, just for his guess range war machine next turn. This I feel is very unfair. I know guess range weapons have a % of luck but it was suppose to be a % of guessing the correct range and the dice. Pity some feel they have to exploit a rules and make gaming a little less fun.

Archaon
04-09-2007, 13:11
First i'd talk to him and explain that he's deliberately circumventing an important rule by exploiting a loophole and that's unsporting and unfair. if he listens good.. if not..
In this case i'd be a pain in the ass for the entire game.. micromanage him to death when he moves his units, be extremely correct and maybe re-measure every move he makes.

When he finally cracks you give him the option to "correct" this tactic and if not.. pack up and leave. Why give yourself the grief and anger to play against a guy who will abuse the rules to no end to gain unfair advantages.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
04-09-2007, 13:21
It's legal im afraid.
That being said,you need to remember that he has to make all guesses before he resolves any of them.If he measures anything before he has finished guessing then any machines he has yet to make a guess with cannot be fired that turn.

I suppose doing that may seem harsh but if he's a gunline player who is resorting to using his mages to generate the ranges he needs for his machines then its only fair you be extra harsh on him.So how exactly would you go about that, as someone playing against it?

1. Insist that they do their WM guess ranges before he does any measurements for the Magic Phase, or

2. ???

Excellent debate topic here.

Archaon
04-09-2007, 13:28
That's the big problem.. legally you can't.

Characters are allowed to join warmachines and since the magic phase comes before shooting he already measured the missile spell just before the warmachine shoots.

It's a loophole i never thought of and haven't seen used yet (luckily.. i'd have gone mental if an opponent tried this against me) but i'd ask him politely to not use this tactic and if it's a tournament i'd argue that it is against the spirit of the game and the rules.

Some tournament organizers go by rules as written and allow that and others would see it as exploiting a loophole and may decree that characters with any kind of magic missile or something that needs measuring may not join warmachines.

In this case the opponent might just place the mage close to the warmachine but that gives you the possibility to shoot him directly which may be a small comfort.

theunwantedbeing
04-09-2007, 13:51
Manticores.......be sensible,I just do the following.

Make them set the tape measure before measuring.
24" range magic missle?
You set the tape measure to 24" and the put one end over the mage and the other is aimed at the target.
You just need to check if your in range,nothing more so it doesnt take more than a second.
Your opponent doesnt get time check the range properly then.

If he takes longer than nessecary I'll reach across the table and check for him.
If he doesnt like that then he should cheat.

raygungothic
04-09-2007, 14:39
Easy solution: New house rule: Players check whether *each others'* spells are in range. If I'm casting, you measure. If you're casting, I measure. If I can't trust you to tell the truth, I probably wasn't playing you in the first place.

I like the feel of "guess range" game mechanics but they seem to be rather flawed. They also make it a little difficult to use modular terrain, which tends to pattern the board a bit too obviously. It would be really nice if there were a less problematic rules alternative, even if it were a little more pedantic.

Chiron
04-09-2007, 14:50
It would be really nice if there were a less problematic rules alternative, even if it were a little more pedantic.


There is, give him 5 seconds to guess and if he pulls a trick like the one mentioned use the tape measure as a garrotte

its the only way to be sure

Hywel
04-09-2007, 15:07
The mage rangefinder is an established trick for those players less concerned with the 'spirit of the game'.

A good counter-tactic is to redeploy your army to the pub.

Häxjägare
04-09-2007, 18:41
Sounds like an "Easter egg". Something that isn't intended but some people do it anyway since it dosen't say you can't.

Really unsportsmanlike in my eyes and I would never do the same. I win and lose on my own machine without exploiting some loophole.

gortexgunnerson
04-09-2007, 19:02
Let him have it. For a man with a gunline that cant hit the mark hes aiming for within an inch on his guess range, then he isnt that great a player. Just ignore it and smash his army to pulp, also hes limiting his magic phase as he is using a 120 point character to range guess for a 100 point warmachines.

Just hunt the warmachines down and reap in the points!

Shimmergloom
04-09-2007, 19:34
If you have any shooting or war machines of your own, then I would start targeting the machines that have mages with whatever template spells and war machines that you have. Remember he doesn't get look out sir! because there are not 5 rank and file models in the war machine unit. A cannon, doom diver or mortar would ruin his day pretty quick. Stone throwers can be good too.

You have to randomize for regular non-template missle fire, but even that has a good chance at hurting a mage who is basically standing out in the open saying shoot at me. Things like 10 archers have little chance to do more than 1 or 2 wounds to a standard infantry block. But if one of those wounds is to a mage, then they have had an exceptional round of shooting.

His rangefinding is working both ways to a certain extent. He is measuring and letting you know a good ways of what you need to guess to hit his machine and mage.

Llew
04-09-2007, 20:04
Legal. Completely unsportsmanlike. Just because something is legal, that doesn't make it right.

I'm not a fan of the range guessing (even though I'm pretty good at it) but as it's a rule, and seems to be part of the balance of the artillery pieces, it should be respected.

I probably wouldn't finish a game with someone that tried that.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-09-2007, 20:50
Indeed. Spells etc do not require you to measure the distance to the target, only to check that the target is within range.

Thus, your friend is indeed cheating, by not taking a rule as it is written. The above posters give the best method, extend the measure to the full range, and if need be, use the blank side of the measure to avoid all numerals!

The other alternative, forcibly inserting his joyless, tacticless army into his eyes via the medium of extreme violent is usually less preferable!

Essentially, Rules Lawyer him into submission. If he whinges, remember, he started it, forcing you to get strict!

Vishok
04-09-2007, 21:00
Fluffers?

The magister relaxes, allowing the power to build up within and around him. He focuses the energy, molding it...then releases it upon the unsuspecting targets. Slowly, the magic fades from his eyes and he turns his head to address the cannon crew...

"Ten degrees lower boys. Half Powder Charge....hold...hold...FIRE!"

I'm not a gunline player but if it's legal who cares. You can find fluff if you're fluffy.

God forbid you people actually cope with what is being used against you. It's not like you play a tactical strategy game. Like gortexgunnarson said...basket of bonus points for very little effort!

Crazy Harborc
05-09-2007, 00:14
I doubt I'll be doing THAT kind of placement. I've been known to place wizards with shooters....never gone the warmachine route. Legal or not, I don't like the idea.

Grimtuff
05-09-2007, 00:45
Fluffers?

The magister relaxes, allowing the power to build up within and around him. He focuses the energy, molding it...then releases it upon the unsuspecting targets. Slowly, the magic fades from his eyes and he turns his head to address the cannon crew...

"Ten degrees lower boys. Half Powder Charge....hold...hold...FIRE!"

I'm not a gunline player but if it's legal who cares. You can find fluff if you're fluffy.


:rolleyes:

Just because the magic phase happens before the shooting phase IRL does not mean these things (along with HTH) happen sequentially in fluffland......

Rhinosaur
05-09-2007, 06:17
If he is regular opponent, you could create a "magic missile" stick or something to check range with. It would be the same length as the spell range but without marks so he couldn't get a precise measurement. If he doesn't agree to this then move on. Also, like others have said, it is a waste of points for a mage to babysit his war machines so I don't think I would really care too much.

stjohn70
05-09-2007, 06:42
I'm sorry, but all I'm seeing is a bunch of suggestions for unsportsmanlike conduct to counter something you don't consider to be sporting?

Too bad.

The person is pulling a completely legal and legitimate tactic. The fact that you don't like it is utterly irrelevant.

The only way to get a person to not do it, is to show them that it is bad... but not bad sportsmanship - bad tactics. If he's standing there not joined, then he can be picked out by your attacks (ranged, magical or otherwise). If he's joined the unit, then he's vulnerable as well - those crews aren't the best, and a small unit of flyers/fast cav/etc can really ruin their day... and deny him a magic phase.

Alathir
05-09-2007, 08:18
Tell him to grow up and play a fun game.

Manifest
05-09-2007, 15:10
I don't know how this is unsporting.
Hell, this sort of thing is written directly into the Tomb Kings army book with the incantation of smiting. (Or as I call it, the incantation of free measures.)

Lyquis
05-09-2007, 15:15
Guessing ranges is a talent some have and some don't. It seems kinda harsh to punish other players who can't guess ranges. I can usually guess ranges within an inch, that feels like an unfair advantage to me. That said, I don't really think there is anything you can do rules wise to stop him.

Crazy Harborc
05-09-2007, 20:53
So suggest a house rule that allows BOTH of you to measure ranges. OR A house rule that requires that all weapons needing quessing of ranges and random dice rolls be declared(written down or marked with dice etc) THEN do magic phase as normal.

Causa Mortis
05-09-2007, 21:51
I think it's pretty harsh myself. Takes the spirit out of the game. If you want to be competitive then go and play something which actually has an ounce of credibility in the real world. A fantasy genre table top game doesn't. I only use it to relax and have fun and I hope that's what my opponent would do as well.

Lord Inquisitor
05-09-2007, 22:00
Well, I'm not too sure I'd play a person that's deliberately bending the rules like that, but if it is a common problem and you for some unknown reason don't want to educate them in sportsmanlike behaviour via rulebook to the head:

Get the person to measure out the maximum range of the spell - away from the table. Then, turn the measure over so he can't see the numbers, and lay the complete range out on the table. That way you know if they're in range or not, and will minimise the extent to how exact he knows the range.


I don't know how this is unsporting.
Hell, this sort of thing is written directly into the Tomb Kings army book with the incantation of smiting. (Or as I call it, the incantation of free measures.)
Not quite the same thing here - using the Tomb Kings power lets you essentially fire twice - which IS going to help you guess. But note that it gives you a second chance to guess - NOT an exact measurement to the enemy. I do take your point, though.

chivalrous
05-09-2007, 22:27
Indeed. Spells etc do not require you to measure the distance to the target, only to check that the target is within range. extend the measure to the full range, and if need be, use the blank side of the measure to avoid all numerals!

I'll adjust that suggestion slightly and say that rather than have the measure extended all the way to begin with, you extend itas you measure and stop extending it when it either reaches the unit OR extends to the maximum range, that way if the unit is well under range the player can't quickly measure 'over the head' of the target unit.

That said, while it's a dirty tactic, it can be supported with a bit of fluff.
A canny Empire general or artillery commander might intentionally ask for a wizard to do a bit of magical range finding. An astromancer would probably be quite good at that sort of thing

EvC
05-09-2007, 23:21
So, what so you guys think would be an appropriate reaction to someone using this technique not only to avoid having to guess the range, but also to overshoot and hit a unit they can't actually see? ;)

logan054
05-09-2007, 23:40
give me enough stellas mate and i'll show you ;)

Reticent
06-09-2007, 00:56
Stop having him check to see if the spells are in range. Just concede that anything that looks in range to you is in fact in range without measure.

The spells that are obviously out of range shouldn't matter as it is more or less accepted that it is illegal to declare something you know to be impossible. That just leaves spells that are on the border of being out of range; you may end up having to measure for them but at least YOU get to choose whether to contest it being in range or not.

Shimmergloom
06-09-2007, 01:21
That seems like a pretty good idea.

If he does try to start declaring spell targets that are really obviously out of range, then at that point you know for sure he's being cheesy and trying to pre-measure. That's when I would just stop playing vs him.

Kerill
06-09-2007, 01:25
Just load up on fliers/fast cavalry. His war machines are now worth 200-250 points each for VP purposes.

I think its a valid tactic personally, unless they start taking the **** by trying to cast magic missiles at things at least 72" away in which case insist on the 24" base.

Still its perfectly valid for wizards to join a war machine. I reckon a beast wizard w/armour of tarnus+crystal ball (also makes it more fluffy)/4+ ward save item. A decent mage and +3A,+2S, +1T spell to see off enemy fliers. No guaranteed range guessing though (depending on the other spells and whether you take the crystal ball or not).