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View Full Version : What things in 40k do you guys hate/dislike?(possible spoilers)



Vesica
04-09-2007, 13:48
Hey guys i have been thinking over the weekend about some of the things that i dislike and hate in 40k, and wondered if like me you guys hate stuff aswell.

Well i used to have a deep routed hatred for Slaanesh which had started to wane and disappear but after reading 'Fulgrim' and seeing what happened to him and his legion i have to say my undying hatred for Slaanesh has returned with a vengence, i actually felt sadened by what happened to him (first time a book has had an emotional effect on me). I also have a form of hate for the Tyranids but that stems from my dislike of anything that isnt humanoid.

So as i said what do you guys hate in the 40k universe?

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
04-09-2007, 13:52
Thats funny, for me reading Fulgrim, and what Slaanesh did, really inspired me to start an Emperor's Children army(post heresy). But the armies that I hate are definately the tau, and the night lords b/c of their helmets. I also can't stand all the new renegade marines.

charlie_c67
04-09-2007, 13:58
*Prepares for the inevitable marine/GW bashing to start*

Savant
04-09-2007, 14:07
I don't like it when GW represent Space Marines as good guys, or the Imperium to be OK once you get to know it. They're EVIL! Space Marines are not white knights riding in to save the day, they're zealots who massacre anyone disagreeing with/working against their facist, knowledge-fearing, theocratic dictatorship of a government.

Just because everyone else is worse doesn't make Space Marines good.

Oh, and I hate Dark Eldar. Stupid space goths.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 14:14
I agree 'Most' SMs are not white knights and the Imperium is not the Good Guy, but its the nicest thing you will get in 40k universe.

Im not to keen on Dark Eldar aswell, but i think its because they are under represented.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
04-09-2007, 14:18
*Prepares for the inevitable necrons/GW bashing to start*

Rockerfella
04-09-2007, 14:21
*Prepares for the inevitable Eldar/Dark Eldar/GW bashing to start*

Vesica
04-09-2007, 14:25
Ok im starting to hate the

*prepares for the..* posts you know saying those things will more than likely start them.

P.S instead of wasting room on the page why didnt you contribute something instead?

RedWolf
04-09-2007, 14:32
*Prepares for the inevitable necrons/GW bashing to start*


>_> Death to the Star Gods, and their followers! –brandishes Eldar sword-

Rockerfella
04-09-2007, 14:43
Ok im starting to hate the

*prepares for the..* posts you know saying those things will more than likely start them.

Just be a good lad and flick past those parts then, if they offend you so much. :eyebrows:


P.S instead of wasting room on the page why didnt you contribute something instead?


How can one waste room on a potentially indefinate amound of space? Beats me.

I'll contribute something for you. I 'hate' (although thats a strong word) the massive amount of bashing that occurs on these threads. With absolutely NO disresepct to the author intended here, I find that threads such as these attract a cetain type of confrontational conversation (like this one, for example) and make people want to vent.

As for the game and the background? Well... naturally i could launch into a colossal rant about how much i hate the marine centric nature of the 40k universe, but i've done that a million times already on other threads. So I won't bother with that. ;)

How about how I dislike the unproportionate amount of energy, money and funding that is distributed amongst the other races? Specifically the utterly abaondoned Dark Eldar, ORKS and TYRANIDS? I realise that there aren't many (compared to marine players) tyranid players out there, but having said that, there never will be if the miniatures and the support for these players isn't there in the first place. Chicken and the Egg? I think not.

Cheers.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 14:51
Thank you, thats more like it lol, i know this might end up getting ugly but i am hoping that people dont start going over the top with there replies.

So as a side not please be civil with each other, and try to act like adults in this discussion. :)

Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 15:04
I agree 'Most' SMs are not white knights and the Imperium is not the Good Guy, but its the nicest thing you will get in 40k universe.

Tau are nicer... :D

I really don't like that almost every army is represented as "The GREATEST THREAT TO THE IMPERIUM EVER" when its codex is released... Every codex trumps the previous one in the badness stakes (BACKGROUND, NOT RULES) in a fluff version of Codex Creep... It was the Necrons, then it was Chaos, then it was Tyranids, now it's Chaos again, and soon it'll be Orks... Great... We get it... The 41st Millenium is a terrible place to live...

What I'd much rather is GW to say "This is the universe, these are the races, this is where they are, this is how many of everyone there is, these are the territories and resources they have, oh, wow, look, the Imperium's actually doing pretty well for itself if it doesn't implode, but it's kinda not cool for them cos they've got so many enemies" and so on and so forth... The Imperium is not the helpless Japanese watching Godzilla and Mothra duke it out over their defenceless city. They have more guns and more cannon fodder than everyone else... Blah... :eyebrows:

Vesica
04-09-2007, 15:10
I always believed Chaos was the single most greatest threat to mankind.

Have any of you seen the 'Inquisition Daemonhunt' mod video on youtube?

Russell's teapot
04-09-2007, 15:20
I dislike the ever-presence of Chaos.

It was far nicer when Chaos (as in daemon, CSMs & warp tears) was a very unlikely event - almost always occurring around the EoT or unusual large scale event like the First Armageddon War. This lead to the cool 'nasty' Imperium, where only Inquisition knew the 'real truth', the masses were kept ignorant, and those with the remotest possibility of taint were killed/ removed from society.

Nowadays it seems that everyone's seen a daemon & that every Chaos Cult brings forth a Bloodletter and a legion of CSMs, meaning that the terror of Chaos is much diminished. Now you only have to worry about the 'baddies', rather than the 'goodies' too!

The lack of cannon surrounding the DE and any recent Tyranid movement is annoying, but not the end of the world, we have enough to go from on the 'nids, the DE, despite vocal prostetations are only meant to be a minor race. I'm sure if they expand GW will tell us :eyebrows:

Vesica
04-09-2007, 15:25
I dislike the ever-presence of Chaos.

It was far nicer when Chaos (as in daemon, CSMs & warp tears) was a very unlikely event - almost always occurring around the EoT or unusual large scale event like the First Armageddon War. This lead to the cool 'nasty' Imperium, where only Inquisition knew the 'real truth', the masses were kept ignorant, and those with the remotest possibility of taint were killed/ removed from society.

Nowadays it seems that everyone's seen a daemon & that every Chaos Cult brings forth a Bloodletter and a legion of CSMs, meaning that the terror of Chaos is much diminished. Now you only have to worry about the 'baddies', rather than the 'goodies' too![eybrows]

I remeber this too, and i remeber when Marines didnt answer like every distress call. Now it seems like they are more the police of the galaxy and not some myth that most people never got to see, i think it would be better if they went back to idea like you said above of people rarly seeing daemons and such.

Lord Fatwa
04-09-2007, 15:26
I always believed Chaos was the single most greatest threat to mankind.
Mankind is the single greatest threat to Mankind... Always has been, always will be... ;)

badnewsblair
04-09-2007, 15:30
I just took a look at that video. Wow! Good stuff.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 15:33
Yea its a very well made video aswell.

Here is the link for people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjN_xbyklQQ

Jade_Dragon
04-09-2007, 17:12
Orks - I hate them..I think they are silly and out of place in comparison to the more 'serious' armies.

nagash66
04-09-2007, 18:34
Things i hate about 40k?... the prices!

The Guy
04-09-2007, 18:50
What do I hate/dislike hmm... prices [but they keep gw running so it's worth it], losing to the people at my club [they rub it in a bit too much :mad:] , the points cost of chimeras, the fact that GKs dies as easily as a normal marine and that 40k is slowly becoming a battle of who can field the largest tanks.

TheMartyr451
04-09-2007, 18:53
I never really liked Tau that much. The look, the concept, their fluff. Something about them never appealed to me. I guess it's because they look "too much like Japanese anime robot aliens".

precinctomega
04-09-2007, 18:56
Sanguinius. The whole "look! he's got wings!" thing just drives me potty.

Have you any idea how hideously impossible that concept is? Practically anything else would have been better.

R.

DraXaus
04-09-2007, 18:58
I hate orks as well. They make no sense with the whole " It will work If they believe it will" mumbo jumbo.

Savant
04-09-2007, 19:14
I hate orks as well. They make no sense with the whole " It will work If they believe it will" mumbo jumbo.

It does sound like a line from a Disney film but... c'mon, SPACE FUNGUS!

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 19:15
I actually really like the 40k universe, despite claims by some that the opposite is the case. Sure, I've got my little glitches with it here and there (including Sanguinius and his wings, which is why I did "LOL" when I read precinctomega's post), but I feel that since everyone interprets the 40k universe these can be pretty much fixed in at least an individuals mind. Then it's just a case of persuading other people to believe it, which is the far harder premise! ;)

If pushed for my knee-jerk reaction? I'd have to admit that the orks are not my cup of tea. Indeed, in the ASP I have tried to avoid all discussions on them. :eyebrows:

Kage

Luthien
04-09-2007, 19:27
Things i hate about 40k?... the prices!

Good call, i have to agree
I hate the preferential treatment some armies get above others

Vesica
04-09-2007, 19:31
I hate orks as well. They make no sense with the whole " It will work If they believe it will" mumbo jumbo.

Yea im not to keen on that idea either, because they would never lose if they believed it.

Would have been a good idea if more effort and detail was put into it, or if it only affected say there vehicles.

Shadow_Wing
04-09-2007, 19:48
Why do space marines always appear?

According to GW, most people only know them in myths, in awe of their awesome legendary power.....men few have seen and only in times of despair...

But when a mysterious nugget turns up in a kids Mcdonalds Happy Meal, a chapter of space marines, most likely the boys in blue, will descend upon the helpless child, execute him for heresy then virus bomb the planet in case it falls into the hands of chaos.

Yeah. Men of Myth.

And what the hell is up with the Necrons? Their all powerful and will strip the galaxy of life, but where the hell are they? All they seem to do is show up at battles to save the day or lose, then dissapear, part from when they went to mars or whatever. Legions of warriors? My ****. Don't even get me started on GW's new focus on Renegade Marines.

"Look, this one's an Ultramarine! Don't worry, he's just a spy! Trying to consume 40k with marines? No, no, why would we do that! Now buy the new £50 Eldar Predator! Comes with Autocannon!"

Damien 1427
04-09-2007, 19:50
I hate orks as well. They make no sense with the whole " It will work If they believe it will" mumbo jumbo.

Just because the Ineptus Mechanicus think that's how it "works", doesn't make it so. Damned Cogboys are confused enough by their own tech, let alone xenos equipment. Ork tech works just fine, just it's incredibly crude and far too dangerous for human use... Which is why the Cogboys can't fathom how it works. Mystery solved, you can stop hating orks now.

I pretty much loathe the C'tan, the War in Heaven, and all that jazz as they are now. If they were simply hinted at, vaguely referenced in places and never revealed in full, it'd be great. It'd be another huge mystery to puzzle over. Vague scribblings, Ordo Xenos theories, Eldar legends... Rumblings. Hints. That promotes discussion and thought.
Instead, we got The C'tan Did It. Orks? Fear of death? C'tan. Machine God? C'tan. Gothic War? C'tan. Assassinated Kennedy? C'tan. Cancelled Firefly? C'tan.
The War in Heaven also seriously turned my favourite and least favourite races (Orks and Eldar) into glorified bioweapons. As an Ork player this got my goat, and even I felt a pang of sympathy for the Panzees.

That does in turn link into my big turn-off with the fluff as it is now... There's no mystery. Before Codex Necrons, we had no clue what was going on. The shadowy Old Ones we know nothing of? The Machine God? The Y'margl Monolith? The hundred and one shadowy tales that wander around the setting?
Now, if we ever get a mystery, odds are it'll either be Chaos or a C'tan.

Then again, the galaxy should probably be expanded. Maybe look at other alien races, lesser species, maybe make the galaxy out to be inhabited by dozens of intelligent races, not just a handful who're rather large.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 19:53
Why do space marines always appear?

According to GW, most people only know them in myths, in awe of their awesome legendary power.....men few have seen and only in times of despair...

But when a mysterious nugget turns up in a kids Mcdonalds Happy Meal, a chapter of space marines, most likely the boys in blue, will descend upon the helpless child, execute him for heresy then virus bomb the planet in case it falls into the hands of chaos.

Yeah. Men of Myth.

And what the hell is up with the Necrons? Their all powerful and will strip the galaxy of life, but where the hell are they? All they seem to do is show up at battles to save the day or lose, then dissapear, part from when they went to mars or whatever. Legions of warriors? My ****. Don't even get me started on GW's new focus on Renegade Marines.

"Look, this one's an Ultramarine! Don't worry, he's just a spy! Trying to consume 40k with marines? No, no, why would we do that! Now buy the new £50 Eldar Predator! Comes with Autocannon!"


That rant had me lmao, and its so true aswell.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 19:54
There isn't MUCH I actively DON'T like - I find most of the specific Space Marine background fluff boring, and most Chaos related stuff can be tedious, unless done right.

All the races, to me, lend something great to the Warhammer galaxy, and I like all of them.

Some guy (UK)
04-09-2007, 20:37
How the IG are present in some sources as superb, honourable fighters, and in others, Marines always come in and save the day.

The numbers GW presents for battles, planet populations, etc.

Those are my main gripes with 40k background.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 20:40
The numbers GW presents for battles, planet populations, etc.

Those are my main gripes with 40k background.

True - its a bit absurd to believe 200 Marines can invade and conquer a planet.

Its absurd to believe a thousand space marines could conquer a planet.

I tend to feel like what actually happens is that most of the fighting is done Orbit to Ground - as in, everything that doesn't need to be preserved is blasted from orbit, and the Marines walk in and mop up the command posts.


How the IG are present in some sources as superb, honourable fighters, and in others, Marines always come in and save the day.

I don't think this is really a contradiction as much as the fact that the IG is the "most diverse organization ever created."

Some regiments are cannon fodder, some regiments are the rival of Space Marine chapters in their effectiveness, with insane courage and ridiculous Combined Arms firepower.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 20:56
[QUOTE=Ktotwf;1879179]True - its a bit absurd to believe 200 Marines can invade and conquer a planet.

Its absurd to believe a thousand space marines could conquer a planet.QUOTE]


1000 marines could take a planet with reletive ease, you have to remeber that not only will they outclass nearly every single human soldier, but most people would run seeing marines coming towards them. Also they dont just turn up and try and take a planet by force on foot they start by bombing thr crap out of them.

thats how 1000 marines could take a planet.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 20:58
Now, that sounds all well and nice - but a planet isn't one city - its a PLANET for goodness sakes.

Look outside a window once when you are flying in an airplane.

Unless most WH40k planets are concentrated around a relatively few population centers, instead of spread out to the degree that modern day Earth is (which I get a sense is true.)

The thought of a thousand men conquering a planet is RIDICULOUS, no matter how uberduberleet they are.

The Guy
04-09-2007, 21:00
Now, that sounds all well and nice - but a planet isn't one city - its a PLANET for goodness sakes.

Look outside a window once when you are flying in an airplane.

Unless most WH40k planets are concentrated around a relatively few population centers, instead of spread out to the degree that modern day Earth is (which I get a sense is true.)

The thought of a thousand men conquering a planet is RIDICULOUS, no matter how uberduberleet they are.

Yes but the Space marines would just have to take out the hierachy of command and then the rest of the planet would fall easily. Eg. If they invaded Earth then attack Washington DC or the UN to disperse chaos and confusion.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 21:03
Now look at the Armies of these worlds, how many would die in the first wave of attacks? and this is assuming the planet has more than a small PDF force seen as most fluff show that most planets dont have HUGE armies to defend them, also look at how many people would stand up to a 7ft tall walking tank? and then there is the tanks and support that most Chapters have along with the Space fleet in orbit.

It would be very easy to conquer a planet with just 1000 marines.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 21:03
Yes but the Space marines would just have to take out the hierachy of command and then the rest of the planet would fall easily. Eg. If they invaded Earth then attack Washington DC or the UN to disperse chaos and confusion.

Well, that is a bad example, because attacking Washington D.C. wouldn't disable the US, and it REALLY wouldn't disable the other myriad superpowers like Russia or China.

In the Imperium however, if the traitor was the Imperial Governor, I could see the Space Marines being able to depose him and restore order.

I think the simple fact is that, in reality, Space Marines never conquer planets alone - they conquer planets with the help of IG grunts who get little credit - its just that the Marines do the hardest work and get most of the credit.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 21:05
Now look at the Armies of these worlds, how many would die in the first wave of attacks? and this is assuming the planet has more than a small PDF force seen as most fluff show that most planets dont have HUGE armies to defend them, also look at how many people would stand up to a 7ft tall walking tank? and then there is the tanks and support that most Chapters have along with the Space fleet in orbit.

It would be very easy to conquer a planet with just 1000 marines.

No, no it really wouldn't - it isn't just an issue of "beating the army" (which is questionable anyway if the enemy is armed with Tanks or heavy weaponry). Its an issue of: Supply lines, logistics, Counter insurgency, territorial administration.

The Guy
04-09-2007, 21:05
Yea that was a bad example but as long as you get the idea. :D

Vesica
04-09-2007, 21:12
Its true they could conquer a planet with ease, and you are assuming that they would keep the population alive or on the planet.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 21:13
Its true they could conquer a planet with ease, and you are assuming that they would keep the population alive or on the planet.

Well of course they would - or what would be the point of conquering a planet if it didn't increase your economic production or tax base...

Vesica
04-09-2007, 21:16
I was not talking about them taking the planet and then staying around to 'babysit' the rebuilding of it, that isnt what they do.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 21:20
I was not talking about them taking the planet and then staying around to 'babysit' the rebuilding of it, that isnt what they do.

But, a planet is a globe, wherein are located, presumably 100s if not thousands of residences and cities, each of them being able to be fortified and manned with heavy weaponry and soldiers.

Now, we know from historical experience that technologically strong armies tend to falter when faced in close quarter city fights with a numerically superior enemy who has the ability to use guerrilla tactics, knowledge of the terrain, and various other factors to wear down the opponent (see Stalingrad, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Baghdad)

It would just be frakkin impossible for a Space Marine army of a thousand men to conquer several cities manned with enemy troops - its just not feasible - the attrition rate would be insane, and as soon as the Marines departed from an area they conquered it would erupt in rebellion and undue what they had accomplished.

Its just ridiculous to believe that thousand men, no matter how well armed, could conquer a modern planet, let alone a planet in the 41st milennium.

Nargrakhan
04-09-2007, 21:23
Things i hate about 40k?... the prices!

Amen Brother! Amen. :)

Vesica
04-09-2007, 21:26
You stated some examples of battles where the High tech armies have come to a halt, buts thats because of a them not wanting to flaten a city they want to keep the city afterwards where as marines would happily flaten it with out question also it is man against man, where as in 40k a marine can take alot more than a normal person, also people would be less willing to attack a space marine than they are a normal person. Marines would not stop before firing at anything be it a women,child dog anything they do not make war like our armies now they are not restricted by human rights.

you are also assuming that the planet has a large enough population to have a lot of cities where as in 40k it seems only the Important planets have more than a hand full of cities.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 21:31
You stated some examples of battles where the High tech armies have come to a halt, buts thats because of a them not wanting to flaten a city they want to keep the city afterwards where as marines would happily flaten it with out question also it is man against man, where as in 40k a marine can take alot more than a normal person, also people would be less willing to attack a space marine than they are a normal person. Marines would not stop before firing at anything be it a women,child dog anything they do not make war like our armies now they are not restricted by human rights.

1. Marines wouldn't flatten a city they needed to conquer - after all, if the target could just be annihilated, the Space Marines wouldn't have been deployed in the first place.

2. Guerrillas rarely show regard for their own life - even when a guerrilla affair is highly successful, the guerrilla side usually loses 5-10 times as many soldiers as the more conventionally powerful side.

3. The idea that a battle hardened guerrilla would be unwilling to attack space marines seems sort of silly - we have all sorts of examples of Guardsmen fight against Marines. And most of the fighting that would be done in a Stalingrad-esque situation wouldn't be hand to hand or necessarily even with the two combatants able to see each other. There would be booby traps and all sorts of things that would slow down the Marines and cause a huge level of attrition.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 21:35
ok you have a point but as soon as marines got to a city they cannot take they would destroy it, also you have to factor in the people who would surrender to them.

As you said guardsmen fight them but not PDF forces, they are like the part time military who WOULD think twice about fighting soldiers who they believe to be Demi-gods.

Vesica
04-09-2007, 21:38
Lets just agree to disagree, some situations people would fight like you said and in others planets would fall like i said.

Because with out proper info being releases we will never find out the truth.

Nargrakhan
04-09-2007, 21:38
we have all sorts of examples of Guardsmen fight against Marines

This reminds me of something someone said to me:


Space Marines might be an almighty sword, but IG are the hammer and anvil. Even the sharpest and deadliest sword, will find itself inevitably shattered by unrelenting blows between the hammer and anvil.

Of course how many hammers and anvils you'd need, he never mentioned. :p

Damien 1427
04-09-2007, 21:44
Its just ridiculous to believe that thousand men, no matter how well armed, could conquer a modern planet, let alone a planet in the 41st milennium.

A thousand men who don't sleep, can spit poison, survive in conditions that would kill a human, carry guns that would cause a fit man to double over in strain, shrug off wounds that would kill a normal man, in armour that enhances their already insane strength and toughness to the point of legend, fire weapons that are the practical equivalent of semi-automatic rocket launchers... Need I go on?

A thousand men, I would understand your point. A thousand Space Marines could take the average rogue world with disgusting ease.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 22:56
And that's the point, is it not, Damien 1427? What is 'average' in these circumstances?

Kage

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 23:01
A thousand men who don't sleep, can spit poison, survive in conditions that would kill a human, carry guns that would cause a fit man to double over in strain, shrug off wounds that would kill a normal man, in armour that enhances their already insane strength and toughness to the point of legend, fire weapons that are the practical equivalent of semi-automatic rocket launchers... Need I go on?

A thousand men, I would understand your point. A thousand Space Marines could take the average rogue world with disgusting ease.

The mere spatial issues alone make it impossible - I think many, many, many people are unable or unwilling to understand EXACTLY how large a planet is.

Imagine conquering something as large as Asia...with 1000 men...and get back to me.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 23:17
You're questioning the specific dictates of the 'fluff,' Ktotwf? Do have a specific 'fluff' quote that allows that? ;)

Kage

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 23:23
If we are talking about a planet that has suffered preliminary bombardment, is assaulted by a couple hundred thousand Imperial Guard at the right spots, some Titans, and a largish contingent of Space Marines as a spearhead strike force, I could see that working...

I don't think "most worlds" of the Imperium are smallish "Two or Three cities" affairs, I think it is just that these planets are easier to subvert control over, by, say Chaos Loyal Governors or Rogue Imperial Guard.

It would be damn near impossible to accomplish much change at all on a massive Hive World like Terra or Armageddon, whose populations spire up into the trillions.

carlisimo
04-09-2007, 23:48
The population of most planets barely know they're part of the Imperium. So all that a few Space Marines have to do is march in, kill the leader, tell his cabinet or whatever that everything will continue as normal if they just accept vassalage into the Imperium and pay the tithes... the end.

That's how elite forces are used. If it turns into full-blown civil war, then it's time to bring in the infantry! (One maxim of war: only troops can hold ground.)

bertcom1
04-09-2007, 23:52
I dislike the tiny numbers of combatants in supposedly epic battles, although this is corrected somewhat in later editions of the background.

e.g. the Istvaan V drop site massacre - I recall something that mentioned the loyal legions taking 30,000 casualties, with only a handful surviving.

When compared to e.g. the Battle of the Somme, in which the British had nearly 58,000 casualties (19,000 dead) on the first day, Istvaan V does not seem that big an event.


I also dislike the principle of "It Depends", "The Galaxy Is A Big Place, So Many Things Are Possible", etc. All the things that mean there is nothing for people to use as guidelines to shape their own stories plausibly.

Is 100 million too high a population for an Agri World? - It Depends.
How many Hives are there on a Hive World? - It Depends.
Is it plausible to have private military companies? - It Depends.

When the background is so flexible that it can accommodate anything, then it just seems to lack any definition, and doesn't seem something to care about. This irritates me.

RedStompa
05-09-2007, 00:43
something I dislike abut 40k is 1, underrepresentation of the dark eldar, althoough they were pretty cool in Soul Drinkers and Nightbringer... I also dislike the inconsistancies in marine armor, how a las bolt sometimes does nothing and sometimes dents power armor...


Have any of you seen the 'Inquisition Daemonhunt' mod video on youtube?- this out yet? been aiting for a while...

chromedog
05-09-2007, 01:40
What I hate is the number of "what do you hate about ..." threads in a 40k forum started by people who seem to hate most of the game. If you dislike it that much, play something else.

I don't really hate anything in 40k. It is a game, using a fictitious setting where I get to move little toy soldiers around and pretend to annihilate my enemy (or die trying - generally the latter)

But the other thing I hate about 40k is the mathammer nerds. Theory=/=practice. You can in theory 'predict' what a given unit will do based on what it has done before, but those die rolls do not affect each other (unless you are stacking your results - which is why in dice games at casinos, you have to 'bounce' the dice off the end wall.)

Rant over.

Champsguy
05-09-2007, 02:16
I also hate the tiny size of various battles. The truth is, a million space marines is so small as to have no real effect in a galaxy of turmoil. A chapter shouldn't have a thousand space marines -- it should have ten thousand, or a hundred thousand.

An 8 foot tall dude in power armor is no more threatening than a modern tank (actually, a lot less, I'd say), so people WILL fight them. If you send a couple squads of space marines to attack a small city, you should expect that those marines will run into booby traps and ambushes. Even if the rest of their company then descend on the town and blow it to pieces, you can expect they'd encounter the same resistance on any planet, in any town. The casualty rate would be immense.

GMMStudios
05-09-2007, 04:05
I usually dont get into fluff arguements, but as far as this "1000 marines" bit, it's impossible.

Its doesnt matter how deadly a marine is. They could only be killed in melee by stabbing them in the eye, run like horses, and carry horns a plenty full of nuclear hand grenades, it doesnt matter.

Its a question of logistics and deployment. Think of how HUGE a planet is. Now, lets say you strain your lines so thin that it is a single guy deep and 1k men across. That doesnt go all the way around the planet... Its just not enough warm bodies on the ground.

Its like telling ten pro wrestlers to break up the Pyramids with modelling files. yes they can throw 300 lb. men around, break spines, and take blows that would knock out a normal man, but its the task!

jhon
05-09-2007, 05:08
the things i hate about the 40K:

the way they deal with the backgound , they cant just cancel out part they dont like . just like what they have done to the squats[ space dwatf]or the rainbow warrior , which i dont like both of them , but you can just cut it form the backgound fulff and try to tell every one it never happen.
the way they deal with the new codex. oh come on!! if i want to play a warhammer fantesy forment codex , i will use the wood elf army book along with the GBG. for all GW game designer , you got to admitt it , the 4 ed codex sucks , i rather use the 3 ed choas dex than the new dex .as for the DA , the combat squad is fine but just leave the armoury alone . also ,limit five tremie in one squad ?! who the hack coming with such delightful idea . since the damage is done but please , please dont let it contine. just mass up the ork and the other .couse every time i read the new dex in the washroom i feel great pain , pain like someone ripping my Butt-Hole hair off .[ sorry for my wording]

P.S is this thread going to email to GW or not ?

charlie_c67
05-09-2007, 13:06
Ok, you want something constructive. Well the thing I hate about 40k is that constant whinging that accompanies EVERYTHING GW try and do, be it models, rules, codecii. Nothing they do is right it seems. Whilst they have released some stinkers in their time, they do at least try and rectify things. Don't like a model? Don't buy it, make or convert your own. Don't like the fluff or lack of it for your race? Write some of your own whilst trying to adhere to the 20+ years of fluff that have gone before. And what is with the constant cries of NERF! with every new codex release or rumour? Have people stopped to consider that a) these are rumours and not always accurate and b) these rules go through a lot of playtesting nowadays in order to make them more balanced? Or do they have a knee-jerk reaction to everything in life? If life was as perfect as some people seem to think the 40k world should be, I'd be a £150k a week footballer and southampton would win everything each season. Life's not perfect so I make do with what I've got, something that some others could do with learning.

Vesica
05-09-2007, 13:26
I dislike the tiny numbers of combatants in supposedly epic battles, although this is corrected somewhat in later editions of the background.

e.g. the Istvaan V drop site massacre - I recall something that mentioned the loyal legions taking 30,000 casualties, with only a handful surviving.

When compared to e.g. the Battle of the Somme, in which the British had nearly 58,000 casualties (19,000 dead) on the first day, Istvaan V does not seem that big an event.

Im sure that i read that nealry the entire Iron hands Legion was destroyed along with most of the other two loyalist chapters, now that might not be huge but when these are space marines who cant be replaced with ease the numbers mean more.

Vesica
05-09-2007, 13:28
Ok, you want something constructive. Well the thing I hate about 40k is that constant whinging that accompanies EVERYTHING GW try and do, be it models, rules, codecii. Nothing they do is right it seems. Whilst they have released some stinkers in their time, they do at least try and rectify things. Don't like a model? Don't buy it, make or convert your own. Don't like the fluff or lack of it for your race? Write some of your own whilst trying to adhere to the 20+ years of fluff that have gone before. And what is with the constant cries of NERF! with every new codex release or rumour? Have people stopped to consider that a) these are rumours and not always accurate and b) these rules go through a lot of playtesting nowadays in order to make them more balanced? Or do they have a knee-jerk reaction to everything in life? If life was as perfect as some people seem to think the 40k world should be, I'd be a £150k a week footballer and southampton would win everything each season. Life's not perfect so I make do with what I've got, something that some others could do with learning.

I get your point, but if everything was perfect people wouldnt like it as much. Most people do on some degree like complaining and people will naturally dislike things that others will like, so i dont think it will ever be perfect to everyone.

Vesica
05-09-2007, 13:33
A thousand men who don't sleep, can spit poison, survive in conditions that would kill a human, carry guns that would cause a fit man to double over in strain, shrug off wounds that would kill a normal man, in armour that enhances their already insane strength and toughness to the point of legend, fire weapons that are the practical equivalent of semi-automatic rocket launchers... Need I go on?

A thousand men, I would understand your point. A thousand Space Marines could take the average rogue world with disgusting ease.

That was the point i was trying to get across, they are not human, they dont know fear like we do so thry would never stop. You cannot compare our armies or anything we have to them.

Vesica
05-09-2007, 13:39
Also just as a random example of what people who know no fear can do, remeber what happened in the film 300? well that was real and 300 spartans held of 1000s of persians becuase they knew no fear, and they are only human imagine what a walking gof could do.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 13:53
No, no it really wouldn't - it isn't just an issue of "beating the army" (which is questionable anyway if the enemy is armed with Tanks or heavy weaponry). Its an issue of: Supply lines, logistics, Counter insurgency, territorial administration.

I absolutely agree. In all fairness (and I know this subject has been touched on before) i'd be quite happy to say, realistically, that todays modern armies would put up seriously heavy resistance to a hypothetical marine attack of a 1000 men without the suppor from millions of guardsmen.

It dosen't really matter how 'enhanced' you are, or how 'strong' you are compared to the average British Light Infantry Soldier, a Challenger 2 battle tank round in the face will kill you, regardless of power armour.

Thats the way i've always seen it anyways.

Now.... i'm ready to be flamed. ;)

Vesica
05-09-2007, 14:14
I absolutely agree. In all fairness (and I know this subject has been touched on before) i'd be quite happy to say, realistically, that todays modern armies would put up seriously heavy resistance to a hypothetical marine attack of a 1000 men without the suppor from millions of guardsmen.

It dosen't really matter how 'enhanced' you are, or how 'strong' you are compared to the average British Light Infantry Soldier, a Challenger 2 battle tank round in the face will kill you, regardless of power armour.

Thats the way i've always seen it anyways.

Now.... i'm ready to be flamed. ;)


i get that point, but marines are not going to invade a planet with out armour and anti-armour are they? true a tank could kill one of them at a time, but by the time it has turned to aim chances are it will have been destroyed.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 14:29
i get that point, but marines are not going to invade a planet with out armour and anti-armour are they? true a tank could kill one of them at a time, but by the time it has turned to aim chances are it will have been destroyed.

For me, not really.

When a challenger II shoots at a bunch of marines, the resulting shrapnel and discharge is likely to kill not just one, but quite a few. Modern armies are capable of projecting force at a colossal rate.

Remember, we have armour and anti armour too. I just seriously think 1000 marines with its armour and anti armour would last not half as long as you seem to think it would.

They're fighting on a GLOBAL scale. Against the likely co ordinated armies of an entire planet.

Also, lets look at it this way. 1000 marines would be pretty much sat in the same place. If they were divided, they would certainly become a more vulnerable target for Earths modern armies. So, if the 1000 marines are pretty much collected in a single army, don't think for one minute that the British, the Americans or other Nuclear weilding nations wouldn't think twice about dropping a 200 megaton warhead on the marine landing site.

If the 1000 spilt up, they can be easily delt with. if they sit together, they have put their eggs in one basket so to speak and present a target worthy of a very large bomb. If they're so badass, and the governments of the world know this, then said governments will do whatever it takes to elliminate the the enemy.

My two peneth anyways! :)

Lord Dante
05-09-2007, 14:41
I hate the Tau, and the Necron races. Boring, contrived BS.

Lord Dante
05-09-2007, 14:44
If the 1000 spilt up, they can be easily delt with. if they sit together, they have put their eggs in one basket so to speak and present a target worthy of a very large bomb. If they're so badass, and the governments of the world know this, then said governments will do whatever it takes to elliminate the the enemy.

My two peneth anyways! :)

The arguments a bit daft tho init, why would 1000 marines just sit there?

If 1000 marines (a chapter sized force) wanted to take over the earth, it (a chapter) would use all of its considerable force to win, ie, bomb earth to hell from space, drop tanks and gunships to remove defences, enter command bunkers, kill all the leaders, and generally take over. perhaps even use nukes themselves.

The main point here is a SM force could bomb u from space, and theres sod all we can really do about that, and when thats over, even the US mountain nuclear defence bunkers wouldnt save the president, a squad of terminators would just power there way in.

Shadow_Wing
05-09-2007, 14:50
Well of course 1000 marines can't take a Planet, and they don't, do they? The only times you hear of a marine presence on a planet, it's most likely in support of the guard, not the other way around. Long gone are the days when marines could do that. Hell, there are usually only 100 marines from each chapter sent. Although it could potentially happen on some worlds, those with smaller forces, they could open up the planet to further attacks. They wouldn't of conquered it, but they would of opened it up to other force who would cause a crushing blow, so I'm sure many of them consider them as the conquerers for that, even though they aren't.

If GW did say 1000 marines could take a planet, I'm sure they were exaggerating it to get the power of the marines across to the reader. And if they weren't thinking along the lines above, that they open the planet up rather than take it, they were insane.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 14:55
But, as KTWOFTWOFFTOWOF said earlier, what on earth would the point be of taking over a planet, if all you're going to do is Nuke it or bomb the living beJeesus out of it? Now thats a tad daft....

Another thing. Just how hard can it be to track and keep your eye on a force of 1000 marines and its assorted supply? Its not like you're dealing with the Viet Cong.

Loadsa massive blokes turn up in BRIGHT blue or red armour, with assorted machines of the same dazzling colour, that in all fairness, i could probably see with my dads monocular.

Naaah, not for me. When they land, you make it hard for them. Drop big things on them. Do what you must.

Bottom line is, for me at least, 1000 marines could not take a planet on their own. Its ludicrous.

Cheers!

Shadow_Wing
05-09-2007, 15:04
But, as KTWOFTWOFFTOWOF said earlier, what on earth would the point be of taking over a planet, if all you're going to do is Nuke it or bomb the living beJeesus out of it? Now thats a tad daft....


That sort of thing is a last resort, unless the planet is useless. And to the point of taking them on when they land, it's not like they rush straight in. They do have planning and strategies, and like I said, most of the time they're in the support of the Guard, and they couldn't take a sizeable planet on their own.

Lord Dante
05-09-2007, 15:08
It depends on what your doing with the planet tho doest it?

If you just want to destroy it, marines win from space, if you want to take over its reasources, they will still win from space. The SM will just call in the adeptus M to use big drilling platforms, planet reformers etc.

If its about taking over the government, well, they would still win most of the battle from space, removing everything they can, then they would pin-point where the leaders are, drop in by teleporters, or gunships etc, which may or may not be stealth or somthing, and kill everyone.

Not to mentions most communication between human ground forces would have been knocked out, all those satalites in space would be destroyed, military bases obliterated from orbit.

To be fair, I cant really see there being an human army left after about 48 hours, long before the SM drop into clean out the populace in city fights, where we cant bring our remaing junked hardware to bare.

The chances of the human race getting into a pitched battle, and being allowed to bring our best weapons to bare on an elite force is very low.

the humans V's a SM chapter, i think we would be under the thumb so fast you wouldnt even know about it - its not like u could either hear about the invasion via the internet, TV or radio, it would all be destoryed or jammed.

So, with all restiance of any worth destroyed, whats left? call in the IG, the Adeptus, terraform or whatever, install a new governor etc...

i dunno is a daft scenario, they are simply more advanced.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 15:09
I KNOW they couldn't take a sizeable planet on their own. Thats my point good sir.

I also know that they have planning and strategies etc. However, they do have to land, do they not? At some point, those 1000 brave souls have to come down and face the music. How many tanks etc and air support units would 1000 marines have with them?

This argument is slowly descending into 'yeah, but they've got massive ships in orbit ready to bomb the planet to pieces'. We aren't talking about that. We're talking about whether 1000 space marines could conquor a planet.

For me, its a no no.

Lord Dante
05-09-2007, 15:11
Like I said above - how would the human race no where the marines were going to land, and brinf thier forces to bare.

Any marine commander worth his salt would have removed all communications before a drop, and tactically removed all army bases etc from orbit.

plus the marines can move across a world in thier gunships faster than we can move a tank.

Shadow_Wing
05-09-2007, 15:14
Like I said above - how would the human race no where the marines were going to land, and brinf thier forces to bare.

Any marine commander worth his salt would have removed all communications before a drop, and tactically removed all army bases etc from orbit.

plus the marines can move across a world in thier gunships faster than we can move a tank.

That's what I was trying to get across, didn't really do it well in my post. ;)

DraXaus
05-09-2007, 15:15
So, if the 1000 marines are pretty much collected in a single army, don't think for one minute that the British, the Americans or other Nuclear weilding nations wouldn't think twice about dropping a 200 megaton warhead on the marine landing site.

It sure would give us a good reason to dust off those tactical nuclear cruise missiles we paid for.

Lord Dante
05-09-2007, 15:18
Again, as a SM commander (which im not but if i can think this up, im sure they would) I would simply log onto the internet, or defense network, the pentagon etc using my super technolagy, learn the location of all military weapons, nukes included, missle sios etc and bomb them from space.

Also, radar tracking systems plus satalites will already have been removed. and counter jamming measures been deployed to stop inter continetal balistic missles from finding thier targets.

Not to mention, no one knows where the marines are going to land because they have no communications left to use.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 15:24
Like I said above - how would the human race no where the marines were going to land, and brinf thier forces to bare.

Well, the second your average farmer or kid going to school or whoever sees the sky light up and a massive orbital landing party containing 1000 massive red blokes, i'm pretty sure they would give it away. There was a time this nation fought wars before the advent of Satellites, the internet and or telecommunication in order to see the enemy, good sir.

You don't need a satellite or an internet connection to know when the atmosphere has been breached by 500 drop pods and associated landing equipment.


Any marine commander worth his salt would have removed all communications before a drop, and tactically removed all army bases etc from orbit.

So, you destroy all army bases, not knowing that 90% of say, the British Army is actually serving on duty in other countries. All that does is leave nothing for them to come back to. There' aren't enough bases in this nation alone anymore to hold its army as it currently stands.


plus the marines can move across a world in thier gunships faster than we can move a tank.

That may be the case, but gunships can be shot down i'm sure.

As for the excuse of 1000 marines destroying a planets defenses simply because they're more advanced, well, to me thats dross. They simply aren't that much more advanced than we are, when you strip down the military equipment we have today compared to what the marines have in the 41st millenium.

If it were simply a case of 'the more advanced force wins' then the Eldar would still be running the galaxy.


Again, as a SM commander (which im not but if i can think this up, im sure they would) I would simply log onto the internet, or defense network, the pentagon etc using my super technolagy, learn the location of all military weapons, nukes included, missle sios etc and bomb them from space.

Also, radar tracking systems plus satalites will already have been removed. and counter jamming measures been deployed to stop inter continetal balistic missles from finding thier targets.

Not to mention, no one knows where the marines are going to land because they have no communications left to use.

With all due respect, i feel you're basing alot of your points here on pure supposition. I know this is all about personal interpretaion, and its a difficult subject because of the nature of the things we're discussing, but still.

You're assuming that the marines would be able to just 'log onto the internet'. What if their tech is so different to ours, its not able to simply 'log' onto the internet?

How is it fair to claim there would be no communications left to use? How would the marines deal with buried comm cables that have been under the atlantic since the second world war? Superior tech again I guess?

It still dosen't wash for me. 1000 marines couldn't take a planet on their own.

Lord Dante
05-09-2007, 15:37
Well, the second your average farmer or kid going to school or whoever sees the sky light up and a massive orbital landing party containing 1000 massive red blokes, i'm pretty sure they would give it away. There was a time this nation fought wars before the advent of Satellites, the internet and or telecommunication in order to see the enemy, good sir.

if all thats left is your average farmer or school boy the marines wont have much to do!


So, you destroy all army bases, not knowing that 90% of say, the British Army is actually serving on duty in other countries. All that does is leave nothing for them to come back to. There' aren't enough bases in this nation alone anymore to hold its army as it currently stands.


Again, I can pretty much look at google to find out where our military is currently deployed, its not going to take long to wipe them out, and more importantly, if an army has no boats or places, how do they even face the SM?

A modern day satalite can see a tank from orbit, god knows only what a SM strike cruiser can detect.

As for shooting a gunship down, yeah probably but with most radr system jammed or destoryed it would require small arms fire, not likely.

And, the argument for the Sm simply being more advanced holds water because whilst the eldar are more advanced than the SM, the difference between them and the SM is not as vast as the SM v's the human race.
Hence why the Eldar dont run the galaxy on technolagy alone.

Simply put, a battle plan would go somthing like this.

A SM force gains intell on the planets defences, army locations and such using its technolagy to infiltrate what ever defence networks the planet has.

Most threats are either destroyed from orbit, jammed, or rendered harmless by cutting off lines of comunication and travel.

SM forces are landed at major command bunkers where the command HQ's are destroyed in a warfare sistuation only SM can win.

Other enemy forces are slowly hunted down using advanced scanners from orbit, or low orbit gunships, where more SM and combat aircraft, and land tanks can be used to destroy the enemy.

SM fight to thier advantages, not ours. they use surprise as thier greatest advantage, not allowing the enemy to brings its normally largers numbers to bare. that job is for the IG.

This notion that 1000 marines land in plain sight of the enemy is silly, If I can come up with a stratergie im sure a SM commander who is 500 years old and trained in counter-operation measures such as planet fall and destruction can think up something more detailed.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 16:06
if all thats left is your average farmer or school boy the marines wont have much to do!

I think you misunderstood my point. :) I'm trying to say that you don't need satellites or a yahoo internet connction to see a blazing trail across the sky that rips apart the atmosphere as the drop pods come in, or whatever.




Again, I can pretty much look at google to find out where our military is currently deployed, its not going to take long to wipe them out, and more importantly, if an army has no boats or places, how do they even face the SM?

No, you can see where some of the Army is deployed, and only then because your PC sits on a network thats designed to accept it. Finding them would be a different matter alltogether.


A modern day satalite can see a tank from orbit, god knows only what a SM strike cruiser can detect. Personally, I think there are certain technologies that the IoM has that are that advanced, but some of the actual fighting tech? Well, its pants really. Some of our weapons can do today what Imperial weapons can alledgedly do in 40 thousand years time. What have they been doing? Really? Remember, the IoM is afraid of technology.


As for shooting a gunship down, yeah probably but with most radr system jammed or destoryed it would require small arms fire, not likely. Again, with all due respect, i feel you're assuming a great deal here to suit your own position. Which is fine of course! :)


And, the argument for the Sm simply being more advanced holds water because whilst the eldar are more advanced than the SM, the difference between them and the SM is not as vast as the SM v's the human race.
Hence why the Eldar dont run the galaxy on technolagy alone.

Well, it holds no water for me. I'll explain why. Personally, i believe the Eldar to be MORE advanced next to the marines than the marines are to modern humanity. Seriously. The Eldar, tech wise, are beyond and above anything the imperium ever held at the heights of the age of technology. When we look at the technology, i mean seriously look at the technology the imperium has today, its all a tad, old and crappy. The ships they use seem to operate on their own, because the tech blokes have no real idea how they actually work. The weapons they use (the really hard hitting ones) are rare and incredibly hard to come across. The actual tanks are made of steel and nothing more (IIRC) which means that a Challenger II has a good chance against a Leman Russ, and the modern airforcs are more than capable (in my eyes) of shooting down a thunderhawk gunship. Have you seen how utterly ridiculous those things are in terms or Aerodynamics? It couldn't possibly fly, let along dog fight with a Eurofighter. Its just silly really when you break it down.


Simply put, a battle plan would go somthing like this.

Ok....


A SM force gains intell on the planets defences, army locations and such using its technolagy to infiltrate what ever defence networks the planet has.

How does it get its Info? Send down spies in the form of a 400lb Jutt Jawed, knuckle dragging testosterone infested marine scout? Or is it all down to their 'superior' tech again?


Most threats are either destroyed from orbit, jammed, or rendered harmless by cutting off lines of comunication and travel. So, if thats the case, then its not really the 1000 marines doing the work or taking the planet is it? Its the ships from orbit and the 'human' crews of said ships. Again, lets get back to the debate at hand, 1000 marines + planet surface= No chance.


SM forces are landed at major command bunkers where the command HQ's are destroyed in a warfare sistuation only SM can win. Ok. Command centres. You mean, impregnable nuclear bunkers and the like? Thats cool, but, how do they get in again? This wouldn't be like the Horus Heresy books where the leader of the opposing planet fights at the front with his boys. You wouldn't see Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, George Bush for that matter stood at the front weilding an SA80 in the general direction of the space marines. He would be a mile underground in a completely sealed everything proof bunker i'd say. We need to be realistic here.


Other enemy forces are slowly hunted down using advanced scanners from orbit, or low orbit gunships, where more SM and combat aircraft, and land tanks can be used to destroy the enemy.

Ok, the same land tanks that are pretty much designed on world war II blue prints? The tanks of today, in terms of force projection, speed and agility, are superior to just about any armour the marnies would field.


SM fight to thier advantages, not ours. they use surprise as thier greatest advantage, not allowing the enemy to brings its normally largers numbers to bare. that job is for the IG.

So does every fighting force in the world in all fairness, thats nothing new Dante. Modern forces don't fight with overwhelming numbers anymore. Human wave tactics dies out in the first world war and are only used by archaic thinking Imperial Guardsmen. Modern warfare has no need for 'mass numbers' as you suggest. That only goes so far mind, to me, 1000 marines woudl still not be enough to conquor earth, regardless of special implants or training.


This notion that 1000 marines land in plain sight of the enemy is silly, If I can come up with a stratergie im sure a SM commander who is 500 years old and trained in counter-operation measures such as planet fall and destruction can think up something more detailed.

I never said they would land in plain sight, but you seem to be avoiding the issue. Can you please, let me know, where on earth 1000 marines could land without SOMEONE seeing them? Have you ever seen the Shuttle return from space? The colossal plasma trail it leaves behind as it thunders through the atmosphere. You can see it from 200 miles away. Imagien that, times 2000 or so. It would be like the tunguska incident all over again! Its ridiculous to suggest that marines could enter the atmosphere in a manner anything short of OBVIOUS. They dont' do stealth. What about the noise? I happened to see concorde go over atlantic when i was on a cruise many years ago. The boom literally knocked people off their feet on the boat deck. I've never heard anything before or since that could compare to that (aside maybe an AC/DC concert). Its not practical.

scratchbuilt
05-09-2007, 17:43
40k war logic doesn't stand up well to scrutiny, but that doesn't really bother me too much.

Apart from the GW losing its heart / going corporate argument, which does bother me a bit, I'm just dissapointed how Chaos has lost its top bad guy status to the Necrons and Nids.

inq.serge
05-09-2007, 20:37
(Fluffwise)#1Tau.

They just don't fit in.

Sure, I like Rail/coil guns, but I hate those Manga-aliens in big square yellow armour. I hate their design! Hate! Hate! Hate!

40k should not try to fit in all cultures! 40k should be dark and Eurocentric. Sure, I love oversized weapons, but keep your giant mercurial uranium katanas away from the game.

More Gothic architecture, less No japanimation. At all!

((Rulewise)#2 the inquisition and chaos (And Marines) (rules wise. I should write their rules, and marines should not be shadowed down!)

#3 Harlequins + Eldar. I Love! Love! Love! harlequins (I even have Arlecchino Batacio AKA The Harlequin as avatar), but I think that they are to cool to be in same army as eldar. They should have their own army.)

Vesica
05-09-2007, 20:52
I agree about harlies,

As for the whole the modern earth would win because we have more people and better armies,

1. most of our armies are based in other countries
2. we are to busy killing ourselves to mount a defense that could stand up to marines
3. half the countries would surrender in a instant
4. how many of you here would willing fire a gun at a 7ft tall walking tank whe that gun doesnt even hurt it?
5. we where talking about them invading a planetc in 40k and how many planets that are not major important planets have more than a small pdf force? and more than a few cities?

so looking at how planets are and what marines are they would win.

Ktotwf
05-09-2007, 21:00
I think the idea that the Tau "just don't fit in" is nonsense - every army has to bring something unique to the table or why create them?

The Tau may not be all "OMG DOOM SKULLZ!", but it is their supposed "goodness" that sheds light on the rest of the universe. It makes you see the 40k galaxy in a different light, and that is great.

Damien 1427
05-09-2007, 21:03
They just don't fit in.

Imperialistic aliens with plans of galatic conquest don't fit in? So they aren't covered in skull sand archaic, barely-understood technology. You can only take so much of that before you need a breather.

They fit in as aesthetically as Eldar do. They fit in background wise as comfortably as any other race.

Vesica
05-09-2007, 21:11
I also dislike the fact that everything marine based has to shown via ultramarines, i understand they are the sons of the primarch who wrote the codex but we dont need to be force feed them.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 21:54
I agree about harlies,

As for the whole the modern earth would win because we have more people and better armies,

1. most of our armies are based in other countries And?


2. we are to busy killing ourselves to mount a defense that could stand up to marines In the face of possible global annihilation, i think it would be unfair to attempt to predict or judge the response of the people of this planet.


3. half the countries would surrender in a instant Possibly. Maybe its the other half that matter?


4. how many of you here would willing fire a gun at a 7ft tall walking tank whe that gun doesnt even hurt it? How do you know a 7.62 GPMG wouldn't hurt a Marine? I don't know either. I'm sure there are people on this very thread that would fight if they had to to defend their way of life. Naturally i'm equally as sure there are some that wouldnt! :)

5. we where talking about them invading a planetc in 40k and how many planets that are not major important planets have more than a small pdf force? and more than a few cities? Why? Just to make it easier for them? Imagine, seriously if you will, 1000 marines landing on a planet that didn't have something other than a piffy PDF? For me, and i'll keep saying this till the cows come home, 1000 marines isn't enough to take an entire planet.

:eyebrows:


I also dislike the fact that everything marine based has to shown via ultramarines, i understand they are the sons of the primarch who wrote the codex but we dont need to be force feed them.


I can understand this point. There are, for me at least, more interesting and 'charismatic' chapters than the Ultramaries. In all fairness though, the ultramarine obsession is simply a familiar or more focussed and undiluted extreme of a situation any 40k player or enthusiast faces when not a marine fan.

In other words, you think its bad all you hear about as a marine fan is Ultramaries, how do you think non marine fans feel when all they hear about is marnies period? full stop?

Cheers.

charlie_c67
06-09-2007, 01:21
I get your point, but if everything was perfect people wouldnt like it as much. Most people do on some degree like complaining and people will naturally dislike things that others will like, so i dont think it will ever be perfect to everyone.

Oh I agree, you can't have a perfect system. It's just the instant overblown cries of NERF! or "Oh no! They've screwed my army, yah boo GW hates the sheep squeezers of splattercan 5!" sort of reaction the appears to accompany every new release.

knighthawke70
06-09-2007, 01:28
the fact that the UK gets all of the new stuff first than anyone else. i have nothing against the UK, just that GW should be distribute all of the new stuff at the same time.

Lockjaw
06-09-2007, 02:49
the marine/imperium centric view to everything, with eldar or tau fluff, i'd like to see more from their point of view, not an imperial commanders point of view of them.

also not big on some of the more stupid prosthetics some characters have in the art, like the one where the guy has a faucet coming out his eye socket, or all the onse with metal plates bolted over their mouths, and some of them are naval commanders or IG commanders too. just don't see why, and it looks a little stupid

Devil-Tears
06-09-2007, 03:31
And?


How do you know a 7.62 GPMG wouldn't hurt a Marine? I don't know either. I'm sure there are people on this very thread that would fight if they had to to defend their way of life. Naturally i'm equally as sure there are some that wouldnt! :)





Not to disagree or agree with the previous arguments, but simply to think technology wise:

I highly doubt that modern weapons can hurt SM. I mean, an autocannon can't even pierce their armour! (Sure, this may be game wise, but still)

Also, the ammunition based weapons used in 40k are somewhat more advanced than modern weapons of the same type. Check out the weapons in the Inquisitor rule book and you'll know what I mean.

Just my two cents.

sabreu
06-09-2007, 03:58
The ommission of certain fluff/cannon from previous editions that made for flavourful and interesting cliff notes. Not everything needs to be rehashed, but I understand how certain things get rewritten to fit into context, but I would like to see certain unique things like the Axe Morkai from the Space Wolves be more prevelant.

I used that as an example, because it was a weapon taken from a champion of Khorne and reforged by the Iron Priests! You don't see little things like that any more. Or how Wolf Gaurd Ramulf was taller than his primarch, and died fighting off a horde of orks who, after defeating him, could not bring themselves to desecrate his body and instead revered him as a God.

Little things like that I wish would stay from edition to edition, but alas, that's just one man's fantasy.

azimaith
06-09-2007, 04:05
if all thats left is your average farmer or school boy the marines wont have much to do!



Again, I can pretty much look at google to find out where our military is currently deployed, its not going to take long to wipe them out, and more importantly, if an army has no boats or places, how do they even face the SM?

A modern day satalite can see a tank from orbit, god knows only what a SM strike cruiser can detect.

As for shooting a gunship down, yeah probably but with most radr system jammed or destoryed it would require small arms fire, not likely.

And, the argument for the Sm simply being more advanced holds water because whilst the eldar are more advanced than the SM, the difference between them and the SM is not as vast as the SM v's the human race.
Hence why the Eldar dont run the galaxy on technolagy alone.

Simply put, a battle plan would go somthing like this.

A SM force gains intell on the planets defences, army locations and such using its technolagy to infiltrate what ever defence networks the planet has.

Most threats are either destroyed from orbit, jammed, or rendered harmless by cutting off lines of comunication and travel.

SM forces are landed at major command bunkers where the command HQ's are destroyed in a warfare sistuation only SM can win.

Other enemy forces are slowly hunted down using advanced scanners from orbit, or low orbit gunships, where more SM and combat aircraft, and land tanks can be used to destroy the enemy.

SM fight to thier advantages, not ours. they use surprise as thier greatest advantage, not allowing the enemy to brings its normally largers numbers to bare. that job is for the IG.

This notion that 1000 marines land in plain sight of the enemy is silly, If I can come up with a stratergie im sure a SM commander who is 500 years old and trained in counter-operation measures such as planet fall and destruction can think up something more detailed.

By your "argument" 100 necrons would wipe out every marine chapter one by one on their own.

Scouting? We'll use our made up super-phase-transponder-PUMA Scan array to detect where every single space marine is located, what hes doing, and what his favorite color is.

Communication? We'll use our Mega-Loogie particle ray to cause all satellites to become sentient then realize their pointless existence followed by mass suicide.

Landing? We'll just land using our Turbo-Gamma-Phase-Transporter Arrays to land in the Chapter Masters Commode while hes engaged with an epic struggle with his bowels and kill him, then we'll shoot our Ultra-Marine-Disrupter-Particle-Gun-Cannon at the convienently lined up marines who are in the process of surrendering because we shot their chapter master while he was dropping a tootsie roll to cause them to spontaneously combust with anti-marine fire particles.

Then we'll use our Gene-seed-Destroyo-matic to cause their genesteed to transform into tasteful reditions of 16th century art.

They can't possibly counter the necrons because they have superior technology and combat experience over 60 million years. Just rinse and repeat, all marines are dead. Now if you had *200* necrons...

The BS of "Oh they've got superior technology which can do anything I feel like it should with no proof and no connection to the entire basis of 40ks "Dark Age" setting."

Applicable to anyone.

Champsguy
06-09-2007, 04:26
Not to disagree or agree with the previous arguments, but simply to think technology wise:

I highly doubt that modern weapons can hurt SM. I mean, an autocannon can't even pierce their armour! (Sure, this may be game wise, but still)

Also, the ammunition based weapons used in 40k are somewhat more advanced than modern weapons of the same type. Check out the weapons in the Inquisitor rule book and you'll know what I mean.

Just my two cents.

And yet, on the other hand, a space marine can die to a punch from a gretchin, if he fails his armor save. Don't confuse game mechanics with real-life.

I'm not by any means a firearms expert, but I do know that modern weapons are designed to have less penetrating power than many older weapons. By simply changing the rifling in a barrel, you can dramatically increase the penetration of a round. Why do we want less penetration? Because you don't want to shoot through the guy you're trying to hit and accidentally hit a civilian 1000 yards behind him. You don't want to shoot through walls. It gets messy.

We could build personal weapons to kill marines. It wouldn't be difficult. We could do it today if we had the need. We don't because in the real world, there are no space marines. Yes, we could make a rifle with (game terms now) Str 5 and AP 3. We don't because there's nothing to shoot it at in the real world. It's like equipping our soldiers with silver bullets -- sure we could do it, but there aren't any werewolves out there. Have you ever seen what a 7.62 will do to a human? I've seen crime scene photos, and I'm not exaggerating when I say those things can blow the top half of your head right off. We're talking brains laying on the ground 15 feet away, along with the top half of your skull. It's not pretty. In the real world, guns wound on a 2+. ;)

This discussion also breezes right on by a lot of issues. The question isn't "could 1000 marines defeat the militaries of planet Earth in 2007". The question was, could 1000 marines seize a planet in the 41st millenium? There are key differences. As good as our military tech is, we didn't equip ourselves to fight space marines. Our bunkers don't have anti-teleportation technology (if you really want a good way to make your bunker Terminator-teleport proof, just make the rooms and hallways too small for them to fit). A planet in the 41st millenium would surely know that encountering space marines would be a possibility.

Ultimately, though, the simple fact is this. I live in Oklahoma City, a mid-sized population city in the middle of the US, that happens to take up about 700 square miles (we're kinda spread out). Our metro area has about 1.3 million people in it. If 1000 marines try to seize the planet, that means they're sending like one guy to take and hold Oklahoma City (he's also going to be responsible for covering like half the state). It'll take the dude all day to walk from one side to the other. There's no way he can seize power. What if he gets lost? What if he thinks he sees a dirty xenos (or a traitor, or whatever), and chases someone down an alleyway, and finds himself face to face with a car bomb? No matter how good his gun is, he's only one guy.

Look at the problem the US faces in Iraq. Great weapons, great technology, can crush organized resistance very easily. But there aren't enough boots on the ground to maintain order.

Deathwing_Learn
06-09-2007, 04:52
Things i Hate about 40k. 1) I really dont like the whole Necron gods started everything. 2) I really dislike the fact that a natural Love/Hate thing for the emperor is seen everywhere.(you dont see as much sigmar hype/bashing in fantasy) 3) Probably one of the biggest upsets is the changing fluff. Usually storylines move forward not backwords and change everytime a new line of models comes out. 4) And finally the biggest most annoying thing 40k has to offer. I HATE!!! the fact that not all armies are equally represented. Way to much SM stuff. Now before everyone jumps on my back, i play SM and am a pro imperium fan but i think if the Orks/DE/Necrons had more developed fluff that fit in with all the other fluff, i think that alot of bias towards the imperium would decrease and the hobby itself would benefit as awhole.
Just my 2cents

Chilltouch
06-09-2007, 06:13
My two major hates:
1) The figures that GW uses for invasions, defences, populations of planets, effectiveness of armour and weapons, etc.
2) The fact that they're going so amazingly in depth into the Horus Heresy.

pookie
06-09-2007, 10:53
2) The fact that they're going so amazingly in depth into the Horus Heresy.

whys that? just out of curiosity - i Like this, ive been around for years and always wanted to know more about this period in history, its IMO the most important part of the 40K world, and its only right that its expanded upon.

azimaith
06-09-2007, 11:10
To be honest the HH is not anywhere near the most important event in the 40k world. All that happened there was some marines decided to glue spikes to their armor and run around screaming X for the Y god!

The most important events (at least in my opinion are)

1: The War In Heaven because it set the universe up to be as it is.
2: The Birth of Slannesh because it not only changed the universe physically but it destroyed the Eldar empire.
3: The Tyrannic wars as they represent a new element in the universe whose capability for destruction makes the chaos marines of the heresy look like quakers.

The Horus Heresy is somewhere pretty far down with the other events dealing with minor gods of single races.

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 11:57
To be honest the HH is not anywhere near the most important event in the 40k world. All that happened there was some marines decided to glue spikes to their armor and run around screaming X for the Y god!

The most important events (at least in my opinion are)

1: The War In Heaven because it set the universe up to be as it is.
2: The Birth of Slannesh because it not only changed the universe physically but it destroyed the Eldar empire.
3: The Tyrannic wars as they represent a new element in the universe whose capability for destruction makes the chaos marines of the heresy look like quakers.

The Horus Heresy is somewhere pretty far down with the other events dealing with minor gods of single races.

Silly poster, Xenos are for newbs.

Lord Malorne
06-09-2007, 12:06
me...it is the whole grim darkness thing...

i mean yeah the galaxy is filled with a myriad of forces out to wipe mankind from existence...but to make out that there is NO change/development/hope!

Also how marins fight with wargear which is thousands of years old and they supposedly cannot remake the tech yet they seem to alwys be able to 'restore it to working order'...hello it would all be destroyed long ago...they HAVE to make new weapons /tanks/power armour!

And tyranids...look at them. what self respecting world would evolve a creature which consumes all the planetary resources and leaves it barren!

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 12:11
And tyranids...look at them. what self respecting world would evolve a creature which consumes all the planetary resources and leaves it barren!

Iroonnnnnyyyyyy.

Stormhammers
06-09-2007, 12:12
the things i hate about the 40K:

the way they deal with the backgound , they cant just cancel out part they dont like . just like what they have done to the squats[ space dwatf]or the rainbow warrior , which i dont like both of them , but you can just cut it form the backgound fulff and try to tell every one it never happen.
the way they deal with the new codex. oh come on!! if i want to play a warhammer fantesy forment codex , i will use the wood elf army book along with the GBG. for all GW game designer , you got to admitt it , the 4 ed codex sucks , i rather use the 3 ed choas dex than the new dex .as for the DA , the combat squad is fine but just leave the armoury alone . also ,limit five tremie in one squad ?! who the hack coming with such delightful idea . since the damage is done but please , please dont let it contine. just mass up the ork and the other .couse every time i read the new dex in the washroom i feel great pain , pain like someone ripping my Butt-Hole hair off .[ sorry for my wording]

P.S is this thread going to email to GW or not ?

when I think about how they get rid of things it makes me laugh and think of futurama..."Thousands killed, none wounded"

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 12:16
To be honest the HH is not anywhere near the most important event in the 40k world. All that happened there was some marines decided to glue spikes to their armor and run around screaming X for the Y god!

The most important events (at least in my opinion are)

1: The War In Heaven because it set the universe up to be as it is.
2: The Birth of Slannesh because it not only changed the universe physically but it destroyed the Eldar empire.
3: The Tyrannic wars as they represent a new element in the universe whose capability for destruction makes the chaos marines of the heresy look like quakers.

The Horus Heresy is somewhere pretty far down with the other events dealing with minor gods of single races.

Wow, Azimaith, for once I actually agree with you. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more here.

The War In Heaven was simply the greatest military undertaking of any kind the galaxy had ever seen. And HAS ever seen. The heresy is small fish compared to the length and colossal battles waged in the WIH.

Cheers!

Lord Malorne
06-09-2007, 12:19
QFT. that is what GW should write about!

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 12:21
Wow, Azimaith, for once I actually agree with you. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more here.

The War In Heaven was simply the greatest military undertaking of any kind the galaxy had ever seen. And HAS ever seen. The heresy is small fish compared to the length and colossal battles waged in the WIH.

Cheers!

As far as I can tell, there is little basis for that idea - the Old Ones seem to have had remarkably little military prowess per se, and the Orks and Eldar were hardly well developed.

The Necrons ran rampant and conquered everything during the WIH, whereas they haven't done jack for the 200 years since their activation in 40k, except for kill some SOB and get like 5-10 of their Tomb Worlds blown up and consequently lose hundreds of thousands of irreplaceable Necron warriors.

Anyway...despite all this, the WIH wouldn't have mattered had the Great Crusade not gotten derailed in the first place - What does some ancient war between some hopped up Xenos matter if the Imperium had conquered everything and cemented its rule in the manner the Emperor wished? The Great Crusade was like an eraser that would have wiped the slate clean. Everything that had gone before would have been (mostly) irrelevant.

What the Horus Heresy meant was that instead of completely and utterly ruling the galaxy with an iron hand, the Mon'keigh are now only kind of sort of ruling most of the galaxy.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 12:28
But the HH was chaos getting a firm hold on something material and finally making a real attempt to destroy all.

I am pretty sure that beats and xeno history.

stormblade
06-09-2007, 12:36
Wow, Azimaith, for once I actually agree with you. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more here.

The War In Heaven was simply the greatest military undertaking of any kind the galaxy had ever seen. And HAS ever seen. The heresy is small fish compared to the length and colossal battles waged in the WIH.

Cheers!

Yeah, well it's too bad that its based on a some Eldar myth, this fact puts much of its happenings and the span of the war itself into the question.

And Horus Heresy is still much more importaint than tyranic wars becase it shaped the Imperium of Men into what it is today.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 12:39
As far as I can tell, there is little basis for that idea - the Old Ones seem to have had remarkably little military prowess per se, and the Orks and Eldar were hardly well developed. Apart from the Eldar/old one space fleets, the talismans attacking the Dragon? How do you define 'developed'? The Eldar used weapons that the Imperium still can't replicate (or certainly understand) to any decent standard to this day.


The Necrons ran rampant and conquered everything during the WIH,

Ahh, know your history before making throwaway comments like these! The Eldar/Old ones were actually just launching a colossal counter offensive at the time the Enslavers hit. The Necrons were on the back foot as it were. The bringer had been hammered by Khaine and as a result was again attacked whilst recovering in his ship, losing his most powerful weapon in the process.

The Dragon was attacked by the Eldar God Vaul, and was lost for the duration of the war there of, and the Outsider was driven insane by Cegorach, the Laughing God of the Eldar.

It specifically states in the 'dawn of the C'tan, GW website, necron section' that the Necrons the Eldar fought were much earlier, uber advanced versions of the tripe the galaxy faces today.

The Old ones may not have had a military as you seem to understand it, but they were clearly massivley powerful and more than able to defend themselves.

For what its worth? I'd LOVE to see the Imperium of Man thrown back 60 million years and told to continue its crusade of fascist policy in a galaxy dominated by the old ones. ;)


Anyway...despite all this, the WIH wouldn't have mattered had the Great Crusade not gotten derailed in the first place Which it did. Shoulda woulda coulda dosen't work here. I could say 'The Imperium of man, the great crusade, would never have heppened if the Eldar hadn't have lost themselves etc etc'. Swings and roundabouts really. -

Vesica
06-09-2007, 12:40
Also 40k is mainly from the Imperiums views, and with the HH being the single most important thing to happen then that is what we get.

I for one like reading about the chapters pre-heresy as it changes my opinion on them.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 12:43
Also 40k is mainly from the Imperiums views, and with the HH being the single most important thing to happen then that is what we get. Exactly. Its the same as the Ultramarine thing in a fashion. The Horus Heresy is important to the history of the Imperium, but on the grand galactic scale of events, its pretty small fry.


I for one like reading about the chapters pre-heresy as it changes my opinion on them.

I too prefer the Legions of old. They were more unique, more interesting and not half as fascist or Xenophobic. The imperium was just infinitely more interesting pre heresy. Damn that Horus! ;)

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 12:45
Apart from the Eldar/old one space fleets, the talismans attacking the Dragon? How do you define 'developed'? The Eldar used weapons that the Imperium still can't replicate (or certainly understand) to any decent standard to this day.

Sure...or else the Old Ones wouldn't be relevant. They come off like the "Mad Scientists" moreso than some galactic empire.




Ahh, know your history before making throwaway comments like these!

Jeeze, cut the sniping. Sorry I picked on your pet Eldar. I admit, I am not so knowledgeable on the story of the War in Heaven, other than that the Necron seem to have mostly beaten the crap out of everything and everyone they touched during the whole affair.


The Eldar/Old ones were actually just launching a colossal counter offensive at the time the Enslavers hit. The Necrons were on the back foot as it were. The bringer had been hammered by Khaine and as a result was again attacked whilst recovering in his ship, losing his most powerful weapon in the process.

Well, all this mythological stuff is nice, with the Eldar Gods and the C'Tan and what not, but what does this mean in real military strategic terms?

I find it much less credible to talk about Vaul and Khaine and the Deciever than to talk about what was actually going on in the war.



The Old ones may not have had a military as you seem to understand it, but they were clearly massivley powerful and more than able to defend themselves.

They seem like they had an extremely hard time dealing with Necrons, despite their myriad of scientific wonders.




Which it did. Shoulda woulda coulda dosen't work here. I could say 'The Imperium of man, the great crusade, would never have heppened if the Eldar hadn't have lost themselves etc etc'. Swings and roundabouts really. -

Well, the point wasn't "OMGZORZ! MY RACE IS TEH UBER AND YOURS SUXXORS" as you seem to have taken it, I was just trying to put things in perspective.

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 12:46
Exactly. Its the same as the Ultramarine thing in a fashion. The Horus Heresy is important to the history of the Imperium, but on the grand galactic scale of events, its pretty small fry.


Well, on the grand galactic scale of events everything is small fry.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 12:58
Sure...or else the Old Ones wouldn't be relevant. They come off like the "Mad Scientists" moreso than some galactic empire.

Firstly, put your dummy back in. Thankyou. ;)

I think they just wanted to be left alone at the end of the day. They were attacked by a race of jealous, uber advanced cancerous techno wizards. They reacted as any capable race would have done I think.



Jeeze, cut the sniping. Sorry I picked on your pet Eldar. Well, i'll tell you what. Stop the frothing fanbuoy arguments, stop the vitriol spewing filth and 'DA IMPERHUIM IS SEH GRETEST' dross, and maybe me and you could have a half sensible coversation. As it is? Your confrontational and argumentative manner is making me want to bite.


Well, all this mythological stuff is nice, with the Eldar Gods and the C'Tan and what not, but what does this mean in real military strategic terms? So, in other words, you're making judgements on a war that you really don't know anything about? Immediately making rather petulant comments about how the War in Heaven was tiny compared to the heresy, i'm guessing because you personally dislike the idea of another race in the being involved in a conflict LARGER than the heresy? Is that it?


I find it much less credible to talk about Vaul and Khaine and the Deciever than to talk about what was actually going on in the war. They were involved in the war though. Clearly, they were involved in the war. The beauty about the war in heaven is that it is purely down to interpretation as to how the events took place. The same can't be said for the heresy, if thats what floats your boat, and you like to be force fed the details and information? Then cool. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, I prefer to ask questions and theorize about Khaine, Vaul and the deciever in the war in heaven. Again, thats my personal interpreation.





They seem like they had an extremely hard time dealing with Necrons, despite their myriad of scientific wonders. Has it ever occured to you to actually read what i previously wrote? The Necrons that the Eldar fought were substantially more advanced than the necorns that walk the galaxy as it currently stands.






Well, the point wasn'tOMGZORZ! MY RACE IS TEH UBER AND YOURS SUXXORS as you seem to have taken it, I was just trying to put things in perspective.

No, you're not trying to put things in persepctive. You come across to me as despising and disliking anything or anyone that dares to disagree with you in terms of the power of 1) The Emperor, 2) the Imperium and 3) the Horus Heresy. Thats up to you though. Just don't get piffy and angsty, or all emo when someone says something you might not like.

That....>>>
"OMGZORZ! MY RACE IS TEH UBER AND YOURS SUXXORS" Is exactly how you come across i'm afriad. To me at least.

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 13:14
I think they just wanted to be left alone at the end of the day. They were attacked by a race of jealous, uber advanced cancerous techno wizards. They reacted as any capable race would have done I think.

I don't know that EVERY race would have created a bunch of genetically engineered slave-warrior races.



I'll tell you what. Stop the frothing fanbuoy arguments, stop the vitriol spewing filth and 'DA IMPERHUIM IS SEH GRETEST' dross, and maybe me and you could have a half sensible coversation. As it is? Your confrontational and argumentative manner is making me want to bite.

I've done nothing other than vigorously defend my vantage point of the 40k Universe, with as well reasoned and well presented arguments as I could.


So, in other words, you're making judgements on a war that you really don't know anything about? Immediately making rather petulant comments about how the War in Heaven was tiny compared to the heresy, i'm guessing because you personally dislike the idea of another race in the being involved in a conflict LARGER than the heresy? Is that it?

No, its not really that. It is that the Universe as it is presented HAS TO BE COHERENT in and of itself.

Its not I that thinks the Imperium is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is GW that thinks that.

I am attempting to rationalize everything that I know in the Warhammer 40k universe and make it "fit."

I'm perfectly fine with the War in Heaven being a Big f'in deal, its just the narrative always seems to have been "The Necrons kicked the Old Ones' asses from one side of the galaxy to the other. Then the Old Ones started winning...but not really. Then the Necrons kicked their ass some more." and thats kind of boring as a story to me.


They were involved in the war though. Clearly, they were involved in the war. The beauty about the war in heaven is that it is purely down to interpretation as to how the events took place. The same can't be said for the heresy, if thats what floats your boat, and you like to be force fed the details and information? Then cool. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, I prefer to ask questions and theorize about Khaine, Vaul and the deciever in the war in heaven. Again, thats my personal interpreation.

Nice one there. Let me translate the above:

"I am smarter than you, thats why I like the Eldar."


Has it ever occured to you to actually read what i previously wrote? The Necrons that the Eldar fought were substantially more advanced than the necorns that walk the galaxy as it currently stands.

That seems like kind of skeezy information to me - why would the Necron's tech have devolved? I mean, I assume the Star Gods didn't lose their technological prowess after all.



No, you're not trying to put things in persepctive. You come across to me as despising and disliking anything or anyone that dares to disagree with you in terms of the power of 1) The Emperor, 2) the Imperium and 3) the Horus Heresy. Thats up to you though. Just don't get piffy and angsty, or all emo when someone says something you might not like.

That....>>> Is exactly how you come across i'm afriad. To me at least.


You can disagree with my point of view, and at times (especially in the earlier threads I posted in) I have gotten a bit upset, but nothing I posted in this thread was like that at all...so I don't see why you flew off the handle.

pookie
06-09-2007, 13:16
for Azimath and Rockafella - i dont disagree with you, but of all those who play the games and know about the fluff side of the hobbie, how many actually know about the War in Heaven, or the Old Ones? to me i know very little, other than the snippits you get in WD/Codex's etc, so from my point of view the HH is an important part.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 13:38
I don't know that EVERY race would have created a bunch of genetically engineered slave-warrior races. I meant the Necrons sir, not the Old one. The old ones were attacked by the jealous uner tecnko cancerous wizards.




I've done nothing other than vigorously defend my vantage point of the 40k Universe, with as well reasoned and well presented arguments as I could. Which is all fine and good, but you didn't need to 'vigorously' defend anything, as you weren't being 'vigorously' attacked at that point. This is why i've gotten a little annoyed, because in all fairness, you seem to vigorously defend you position when there's really no need to. Look, i'll send you a private mail and explain what i mean without rushing.



Its not I that thinks the Imperium is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is GW that thinks that. But you clearly DO think this, come on be honest! There's nothing wrong with that! But comparing the heresy to the war in heaven is daft. One lasted a few hundred years, tops, the other lasted eons!. I've read all the heresy books, and i ADORE them. I really do, thanks to the heresy books i've found a new interest in all things imperium. Thanks to these books, the marines are now up there as my faviourites along side the Eldar and Chaos. I just still cling to a 'devils advocate' type approach when dealing with the issue of 'The Imperium is the greatest, the Emperor is the hardest' etc etc.


I am attempting to rationalize everything that I know in the Warhammer 40k universe and make it "fit." OK! Cool! Again, thats a good thing, but blimey Ktotwf, don't immediately jump to an irrational defense when someone says something that opposes your insticts or views. I'm as guilty of that as the next man, and its not a case of 'i'm right, you're wrong'. Bah, i don't know, i'm rushing and this isn't coming out as i woudl like it to.


I'm perfectly fine with the War in Heaven being a Big f'in deal, its just the narrative always seems to have been "The Necrons kicked the Old Ones' asses from one side of the galaxy to the other. Then the Old Ones started winning...but not really. Then the Necrons kicked their ass some more." and thats kind of boring as a story to me. Ok, so just because its boring to you, dosen't mean that it was a smaller event than the Heresy. It really wasn't as simple as you described it there. I implore you (if you haven't already) to read the Dawn of the C'tan fluff on the GW website, in the necron section. The way its written, makes it, to me at least, the most interesting part of the 40k history.

Thats because im tired and very bored myself of hearing about humanities blazing wonderous victories yada yada across the universe. Change the record man, you know? Lets hear soething else for a change. I know LOADS of peeps who hate the war in heaven. No worries!




Nice one there. Let me translate the above:

"I am smarter than you, thats why I like the Eldar." I've yet to find a link between IQ and race preference myself. Its not a case of 'im smarter than you'. I'm probbaly not. I'm a dullard who drinks too much and has too much spare time on his hands (until nxt week, anyway). I LIKE the imperium. I much prefer the pre heresy imperium. I think (as i said before) it was a more interesting time for mankind.




That seems like kind of skeezy information to me - why would the Necron's tech have devolved? I mean, I assume the Star Gods didn't lose their technological prowess after all. Well, look. I can see how you think that, but the Eldar have somewhat devolved too. They certainly don't have the universe spanning knowledge and secrets they used to.

And, think of it this way, if your army had been asleep for 60 million years, would you wake up your most specialised, elite troops first to have a snoop around? Or would you wake up the thicks and and dozers?

it simply says in the necron fluff on the GW site, that the silvered host was probably some kind of super advanced NEcron.



You can disagree with my point of view, and at times (especially in the earlier threads I posted in) I have gotten a bit upset, but nothing I posted in this thread was like that at all...so I don't see why you flew off the handle.

I've seen you get uspet several times Ktotwf. Its usually always when someone disagrees with you, and ususally on the smallest of things. I got angry because I grow tired not of people having different opinions to me (crikey, isn't that what debate is all about?) but because some people refuse to even acknowledge another argument, and can't see past their own noses and the Emperors ass cheeks. Thats what gets to me.

I did go on one and i'll apologise now to you and the other forum users. Its not like me at all (really) However, i'll not take any nonsense you know? Ahhhh gods.

To pookie, yup, i agree and understand. If thats what Ktotwf meant too, then sure, i agree and completely get that. Its seriously worth looking into though. Its a similar thing when people were force fed in this country the notion that Oasis were the biggest band in the WORLD. They believed it because a) they were told it, and b) they were British. Nothing of course could have been further from the truth. The thousands of swarming Oasis fans genuinely believed Oasis to be the biggest band in the world. They had no point or frame of reference. There are much bigger bands..... Ah sheesh i'm jibbering. A crap analogy i'm afraid.

Well, thats my last post. Gotta run!

pookie
06-09-2007, 13:50
Rockafella, yep Crap Analagy, especially coz they were and still are the biggest band ever!!! ;) LOL

im amazed how much people like yourself know, and one day when ive time im sure i'l start reading up on the info on here and out there on other sources.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 13:57
Rockafella, yep Crap Analagy, especially coz they were and still are the biggest band ever!!! ;) LOL

im amazed how much people like yourself know, and one day when ive time im sure i'l start reading up on the info on here and out there on other sources.

Gotta reply to this.

I appreciate you words, but i'm small fish. Wait till the 'high forehead' brigade turn up. There's three of four posters who are here regularly who know things they really shouldn't.

As for Oasis? Blur were better anyway. Ha! :P

Anyways, hello to Leeds brother, not far from my home. :)

Adios!

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 13:58
Just out of interest, and because that last series of posts was quite fun to watch, I actually don't mind the War in Heaven 'fluff,' with the exception that my preference is to take a minimalist, "What high fantasy/mythology stuff can I get away with not including" approach. If given a pinch of truth serum or, well, the slightest of openings to be fair, the one thing that really does get my goat on it is the timeline. 60+ Mya!? Ye gadz. Tone it down a bit. Sure, you're trying for "epic timeline" but it looks like they've gone, "Hey, we want them to dinkle with the human genome, what's the oldest we can get? Hey, sure, the rise of the mammals. Then we can allude to the War in Heaven being the end of the dinosaurs, we get our ridiculously long, Silmarillion-esque timeline and everything is peachy!" :eyebrows:

Divide timeline in 10 (i.e. 6+ Mya) and suddenly many of the problems go away, including the somewhat hand-waved Enslaver Plague. Yet get the human tinkering wangled in, the Eldar can develop and have a "galaxy spanning empire" without having a really, really, rrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyyyyyy slow period of development and, well, Bob might be your uncle as well.

:D

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 14:04
Then we can allude to the War in Heaven being the end of the dinosaurs, we get our ridiculously long, Silmarillion-esque timeline and everything is peachy!" :eyebrows:
:D

Kage

Incidentally, did you actually understand any of that book? I found it particularly hard going. Far too much prose.


But yes, time line is a tad awkward. I guess we were talking about the beginning of all sentient life in the galaxy though. Not that that makes any difference in real terms.

pookie
06-09-2007, 14:12
Gotta reply to this.

I appreciate you words, but i'm small fish. Wait till the 'high forehead' brigade turn up. There's three of four posters who are here regularly who know things they really shouldn't.

As for Oasis? Blur were better anyway. Ha! :P

Anyways, hello to Leeds brother, not far from my home. :)

Adios!

well if your small fish, im plankton ;)

and out of curiosity where ya from?

Vesica
06-09-2007, 14:17
Im quite happy bout this thread, there hasnt been to much flaming and underhand remarks.

Its nice to see people putting effort behind there answers.

I think it would be nice to read stuff about wih but i would be worried about them spoiling it.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 14:22
well if your small fish, im plankton ;)

and out of curiosity where ya from?

No you're not. Just time and before you know it, you'll achieve 'guru' status, sat drinking G&T's with the likes of Kage, MvS, Khaine messenger and Dantes Inferno, probably the rest of the 'high forehead' brigade too. Its something to look forward to though isn't it? :rolleyes: ;)

From South Yorkshire, Sunny Donny.

Vesica: Yeah, its a good thread. Bear in mind I was supposed to have left an hour ago and i'm still here, can't be too bad eh?

Thats the thing with the WiH. If you reveal too much, it could spoil it. I started a thread months ago, a poll in fact. Something along the lines of 'If GW coudl produce a series of books, in the vein of the HH novels, about the WiH, that were thought provoking, interesting and blah bah blah, would you buy them?'

Had some suprising results!

Vesica
06-09-2007, 14:28
Yea, the difference between HH and thewih is that showing details about the heresy was what people wanted to know, where as thewir like you said is mysterious and unknown and that adds to its coolness.

I suppose if they did it via an eldar telling it as he/she remebers it would be cool.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 14:28
Incidentally, did you actually understand any of that book? I found it particularly hard going. Far too much prose.
It's understandable, but weighty. Unfortunately it's all a big blur at the moment and I would have to read it again, though that's not something that I'm looking forward to. On the bright side it is not Lord of the Rings. :skull:


But yes, time line is a tad awkward. I guess we were talking about the beginning of all sentient life in the galaxy though. Not that that makes any difference in real terms.
Oh, you can see why it was done. They've given themselves over the years enough rope to hang themselves, but in this case I don't think that it was necessary to allude to the "first lifeforms." Sure, the C'tan might have been hanging around for billions of years, but that's no-never mind.

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 14:41
It's understandable, but weighty......

It is understandable, if you have three weeks to dedicate to each page. I found it akin to walking on my eyebrows through a swamp. I enjoyed it, what i remember of it, but... it was terribly convoluted and flowery.

I guess this is for another thread entirely... lol

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 14:51
Indeed, but that's people from Doncaster for you. ;)

(Erm, just kidding.)

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 15:02
Is Doncaster really seen as being THAT bad by the rest of the country? LOL

Hey, Douglas Barder was from Doncaster, same Village as me in fact. *nods* And Brian Blessed. And Kevin Keegan. So... there! :P

Anyways, I always thought you were a yank, so i'm suprised you knew 'Donny' was good ole 'Doncaster'.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 15:04
Brian Blessed...U sir are a God amongst men.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 15:16
Brian Blessed...U sir are a God amongst men.


I've GOT IT!!

New cast listings for the new 40k movie.

The Emperor: Brian Blessed
Sanguinius: Gary Busey
Horus: Mel Gibson/Steven Segal/Steve Guttenberg
Fulgrim: Sharon Stone

What do you chaps think to THAT!??

pookie
06-09-2007, 15:30
Donny aint too Bad, i knew loads of lads that have had 'stayed' there curtosy of HMP....... cant say ive any opinions on the place myself, now Leeds, and especialy Seacroft, well we do have a bad rep!

ive enjoyed this thread too, and will keep an eye on it to see how it develops.

Rockerfella - LOL i like that idea!!!

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 15:32
I'm a Yorkshireman myself, Rockerfalla, though I come from the superior North and East Ridings. ;)

Sharon Stone as Fulgrim? That's just too funny. That would mean that Eldrad would be played by Madonna, at least if we're to listen to Rennie and his "Vogue" approach to the Eldar! ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 15:47
I'm a Yorkshireman myself, Rockerfalla, though I come from the superior North and East Ridings. ;)

Sharon Stone as Fulgrim? That's just too funny. That would mean that Eldrad would be played by Madonna, at least if we're to listen to Rennie and his "Vogue" approach to the Eldar! ;)

Kage

Eww, the north east ridings? You mean..Darlington and the such? *gips* ;) I'm teasing.

Well, i kinda had this horrible image of Sharon stone uncrossing her legs sat infront of Eldrad at the 'meet' with Fulgrim. Eldrads eyes kind of dropping down, his massive will unable to fend of the obvious 'trogness' of Fulgrim played by stone.

That would be how the few marines managed to defeat an Avatar, a Wraithlord and an entire Eldar host. It was Fulgrim Flashing Eldrad that made Ulthran snap in the end. :D


Donny aint too Bad, i knew loads of lads that have had 'stayed' there curtosy of HMP....... cant say ive any opinions on the place myself, now Leeds, and especialy Seacroft, well we do have a bad rep!

ive enjoyed this thread too, and will keep an eye on it to see how it develops.

Rockerfella - LOL i like that idea!!!

Yeah, Donny is ok. Its trying. Very trying. Ha! Good friend of mine is the deputy Guvnor' at the prison. He has some stories to tell!

Yeah, Brian would play an awesome Emperor. :P

Damien 1427
06-09-2007, 15:52
the fact that the UK gets all of the new stuff first than anyone else. i have nothing against the UK, just that GW should be distribute all of the new stuff at the same time.

Well, when video game developers (Hey Nintendo, why does it take over six months to translate a 'sports' game on the DS?), movie distributors and comic publishers do the same, you'll have a point.

We get EVERYTHING ELSE at best a few days afterwards. In some cases we never get it.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 15:53
who needs other people than Blessed he could play them all.

Bassik
06-09-2007, 16:53
The beauty about the war in heaven is that it is purely down to interpretation as to how the events took place.

Quoted for truth.

I realy like reading about the War in Heaven, since its so open to your own mind. Was Khaine a weapon, a starship, a physical God, etc? I love stuff like that^^

And even though my favorite army is Chaos, I have to agree that the Horus Heresy is not realy that important.
Its a bit like when in some distant country there is a revolution and the oppresive kapitalist leaders are smashed down and replaced by an even more opressive regime "for the people".
Its huge and extremeley important for the people in that country, but it doesnt realy affect us.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 16:55
Quoted for truth.

I realy like reading about the War in Heaven, since its so open to your own mind. Was Khaine a weapon, a starship, a physical God, etc? I love stuff like that^^

And even though my favorite army is Chaos, I have to agree that the Horus Heresy is not realy that important.
Its a bit like when in some distant country there is a revolution and the oppresive kapitalist leaders are smashed down and replaced by an even more opressive regime "for the people".
Its huge and extremeley important for the people in that country, but it doesnt realy affect us.


But the heresy affects everyone in 40k, if it wasnt for horus turning there would be no xenos, no traitors nothing but the Imperium. So how is that not Important?

Bassik
06-09-2007, 17:01
You realy think humanity was that strong, even at their peak? They would have never gotten rid of all those aliens, simply because there is too many of them (think trying to get the common housefly to become extinct.)

Erebus26
06-09-2007, 17:03
The HH was the biggest thing to happen to the Galaxy full stop!!! The Imperium wouldn't be like it is today if it wasn't for the Heresy. Rather than being on the offensive against the xeno's it's now on the defensive. Although a huge human empire, it would have been arguably far greater if the emperor would have been able to fulfill his aims.

Biggest thing I love about 40k: Chaos in all it's forms!
Biggest thing I hate: That in the fluff they always get beaten in the end by the loyalist scum (with the exception of Storm of Iron and Dark Apostle). Sheer Heresy!!! :D

inq.serge
06-09-2007, 17:47
My opinions about Tau (and why I don't like them):

*They are to manga.
*They have to bright colours.
*They have ugly square armour.
*They look to manga, their face should look more like this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/PSibbering/Tau/T_a_u__H_e_a_d.jpg). (Pic by Philip Sibbering. I don't believe in Copy Right so I haven't asked if I may post a link to it).
* Their design sucks. Their mix of soft and square sucks.
* They are not cool.
* Gw should had reintroduced an older specie instead of making a new one, I.E Hrud, Squat (Yes, I know that they are subspecies) or any other.
* GW should show less "Greater Good" and more that they are brainwashed mind controlled-though-pheromones slaves of the Aun.
* I Hate that people call them communists, Tau are not communists, This is why:


* If Tau where commies, there would be no Auns or any other authority. (Except one temporary goverment during the Proletarian Revolution)
* The Earth caste (Workers) would be the only Caste.
* There would not be any Fire caste.
* There would not be any caste system at all.
* Communism doesn't work in real life, only in theory. If it would work in real life, then it would be the best system ever, and it would be cool, unlike Tau, who are not cool.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 18:02
You realy think humanity was that strong, even at their peak? They would have never gotten rid of all those aliens, simply because there is too many of them (think trying to get the common housefly to become extinct.)

you know that they did wipe out alot of xeno races before the heresy, also it wouldnt be that hard to damage them beyond repair. If it was not for the Heresy the Primarchs would still walk the earth, the Emperor would sit on the Golden Throne as a Throne, and Humanity would stand tall as the Masters of the Universe.

Arkley
06-09-2007, 18:05
C'Tan... I dont like them for how they have invaded the fluff... I know others will disagree but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 18:40
C'Tan... I dont like them for how they have invaded the fluff... I know others will disagree but everyone is entitled to their opinion.


I kinda know what you mean, and as you said people have their own opinions.

Mabye if we are lucky they will do a new Necron codex and add some new stuff for them.

Vesica
06-09-2007, 18:42
My opinions about Tau (and why I don't like them):

*They are to manga.
*They have to bright colours.
*They have ugly square armour.
*They look to manga, their face should look more like this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/PSibbering/Tau/T_a_u__H_e_a_d.jpg). (Pic by Philip Sibbering. I don't believe in Copy Right so I haven't asked if I may post a link to it).
* Their design sucks. Their mix of soft and square sucks.
* They are not cool.
* Gw should had reintroduced an older specie instead of making a new one, I.E Hrud, Squat (Yes, I know that they are subspecies) or any other.
* GW should show less "Greater Good" and more that they are brainwashed mind controlled-though-pheromones slaves of the Aun.
* I Hate that people call them communists, Tau are not communists, This is why:

You make some great points there, and i agree with that picture if tau looked like that without helmets they would fit in just a little bit more (imo they are still to human in appearence at the moment.)

Arkley
06-09-2007, 18:53
I kinda know what you mean, and as you said people have their own opinions.

Mabye if we are lucky they will do a new Necron codex and add some new stuff for them.

See to be honest I have no problem with Necrons themselves... Its the Star Gods I have a problem with.

Dyrnwyn
06-09-2007, 19:57
That seems like kind of skeezy information to me - why would the Necron's tech have devolved? I mean, I assume the Star Gods didn't lose their technological prowess after all.

Just have to chip in my 2 cents here, Necron tech hasn't devolved, its that what we're seeing isn't representative of Necron warmachines and warriors. The current tabletop army is a raiding force that collects lives to feed the C'tan. It's an army of farmers, not soldiers. The Gauss Flayer is the Necron equivalent of a garden hoe. The C'tan are currently interested in feeding themselves, not declaring war on the galaxy again.

Chilltouch
06-09-2007, 20:55
Why do I hate the expansion on the Horus Heresy?

'cause of how they are turning a vague and epic legend into something with illogical, stupid mistakes.

This is how it can be summed up now:

Horus: "lol, im in ur imperium turning ur legionz"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "lol, im in my cruiser killing ur son"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "lol, im in ur palace maiming ur body"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "bugger it, i give in... i'll kill this random terminator for fun."
Emperor: "PWNT"
Horus: "oh nooez!"

bertcom1
06-09-2007, 22:17
At the risk of reigniting the 1000 marines argument.

Consider. As well as being the best Imperial shock troops, Marines are also terror troops.

They might be able to subjugate an entire world, but only rarely would they do that by actually fighting the military forces of the world.

Instead, they would perform terror raids, to destroy civilian infrastructure, and demonstrate that the armed forces are unable to protect the civilians. This will often trigger a civil war, especially on rebel Imperial worlds where there will inevitably be loyalists.

I picture marines as doing such things as burning fields of crops, destroying bridges, wrecking power stations, cracking dams to flood large areas, and generally just dropping into inhabited areas and laying waste to it all, extracting before any opposition shows up.

This sort of thing, coupled with operations against actual military forces, will generally make a planet ungovernable, in some cases bordering on uninhabitable.

Remember, the Marines don't actually care what state a planet is in once they are through with it, so long as it pledges allegiance to the Emperor.

So 1000 Marines might just be enough to conquer even quite a substantial world.

Tanith Ghost
06-09-2007, 22:37
I'll be starting a thread to go into detail on this, but well said bertcom1.


What I hate is the never ending pile-on the Imperium endures. I'd like to see xenos wars for a change. Or xeno-chaos wars.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 23:32
So 1000 Marines might just be enough to conquer even quite a substantial world.
I still quite didn't get it from your last post beyond the idea of "guerilla tactics," the idea of misrepresentation of force, and the fact that this is beyond the standard representation of Marines from GW... :S

Kage

Erebus26
07-09-2007, 00:51
Why do I hate the expansion on the Horus Heresy?

'cause of how they are turning a vague and epic legend into something with illogical, stupid mistakes.

This is how it can be summed up now:

Horus: "lol, im in ur imperium turning ur legionz"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "lol, im in my cruiser killing ur son"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "lol, im in ur palace maiming ur body"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "bugger it, i give in... i'll kill this random terminator for fun."
Emperor: "PWNT"
Horus: "oh nooez!"


Now I would like to see that included in the HH novels! Horus winding the Big E by sending him nasty text messages!!!:D

Vesica
07-09-2007, 01:25
Just think, if old one eye had used text messaging instead of the warp the whole thing could have been stopped. (lol has anyone seen the orange adds in the cinema? if so thats where i got the idea)

The Warmaster
07-09-2007, 04:24
Why do space marines always appear?

According to GW, most people only know them in myths, in awe of their awesome legendary power.....men few have seen and only in times of despair...

But when a mysterious nugget turns up in a kids Mcdonalds Happy Meal, a chapter of space marines, most likely the boys in blue, will descend upon the helpless child, execute him for heresy then virus bomb the planet in case it falls into the hands of chaos.

Yeah. Men of Myth.

You answered your own question - the vast majority of those who see the Marines get Exterminatus'ed. That's why they're supposedly "rarely seen".

As for things I dislike/hate in 40K, I'm not too fond of the Tau equipment, appearance-wise (looks too anime-sci-fi for 40K, in my opinion), although I have no problem with the Tau themselves. I must admit, I heavily dislike Dark Eldar, as they have pretty much no depth (raiding for slaves seems to be all they do), although I must admit that I actually found the Dark Eldar in the third Soul Drinkers book to be quite interesting. I also really dislike Ratlings.

- N.

stormblade
07-09-2007, 08:05
Apart from the Eldar/old one space fleets, the talismans attacking the Dragon? How do you define 'developed'? The Eldar used weapons that the Imperium still can't replicate (or certainly understand) to any decent standard to this day. -

- You shouldn't take that as granted, all information about Eldar technology at that time is vague and what information we do have is in some kind of a myth and we all know how true they tend to be.




Ahh, know your history before making throwaway comments like these! The Eldar/Old ones were actually just launching a colossal counter offensive at the time the Enslavers hit. The Necrons were on the back foot as it were. The bringer had been hammered by Khaine and as a result was again attacked whilst recovering in his ship, losing his most powerful weapon in the process.

The Dragon was attacked by the Eldar God Vaul, and was lost for the duration of the war there of, and the Outsider was driven insane by Cegorach, the Laughing God of the Eldar.

-

Khaine only, the way I see it, destroyed the necrodermis in which Kaelis Ra resided-an impressive feat but it seems just like a minor setback for something that controls reality.

Vaul did indeed 'pacified' the Dragon but weren't most of his talismans destroyed by the Necrons afterwards(I'm not sure about this though)

And Coagorach(or however you spell it) did make the outsider insane (whatever insane might mean for an alien monstrous planet-eating entity) but the Harlequin performance which shows this also prophesies the return of the vengeful 'deity' when it will wreak his horrible vengeance on the Eldar.

Oh yeah this reminds me that when Khaine had beaten the Nightbringer didn't the C'tan somehow made the Eldar truly mortal or something.

Besides I think that the War in Heaven, being written from Eldar prospective, doesn't really show the things the way they were; there is little mention of Orks and any other race (and OO made quite a few of them I think ) so it should all 'be taken with a pinch of salt' how the guys on this forum like to say.

Lord Dante
07-09-2007, 12:25
Before reading this post, please scroll to the end, and read the finnal paragraph, this post refers to a scenario rockerfella and myself have cooked up.
If your up to date on it, please go on.
Azimath, as per usuall you continue to go OTT, and talk gibberish, your usuall style of simply INSULTING people is a bit childish, and I will never respond to a single one of your posts because of this.


I think you misunderstood my point. :) I'm trying to say that you don't need satellites or a yahoo internet connction to see a blazing trail across the sky that rips apart the atmosphere as the drop pods come in, or whatever.

If the army sees it, then thats a problem, if I see it, I cant do jack to a SM, so it doesnt matter. this is a battle plan, again, using my human mind that has seen no real combat ill make an amazing plan of not dropping my marines near people. thats quite simple, the earths a big place, and if i do need to invade ill use Thunderhawks.



No, you can see where some of the Army is deployed, and only then because your PC sits on a network thats designed to accept it. Finding them would be a different matter alltogether.

Im pretty sure that all networks and communications could be hacked into, on all levels. it would be quite easy to find out where most armies are deployed, and again, lets be clear, I only need to combat the ones that are of importance to my mission, I dont care about the 20 sas in Iraq, im here to kill the president in the USA for example.



Personally, I think there are certain technologies that the IoM has that are that advanced, but some of the actual fighting tech? Well, its pants really. Some of our weapons can do today what Imperial weapons can alledgedly do in 40 thousand years time. What have they been doing? Really? Remember, the IoM is afraid of technology.

Swings and round abouts, they have SM, and Laser cannons, Virus bombs and Titans, we dont. and its just a game...



Again, with all due respect, i feel you're assuming a great deal here to suit your own position. Which is fine of course! :)

I dont feel im assuming to much to be honest, im just taking a current military tactic, and moving forward a bit, im not taking anything unusuall, or making anything up, for example. Networking hacking, we do that all the time now, and a common military tactic is to always remove an enemys communication network, and modern militarys will hack networks, look at china in the news this week, so its not unusuall.
If I attack a house, i cut the phone lines, a country I knock out the radar etc... if I attack a planet, its not unfair to assume I do it on a larger level is it? thats a common extrapolation of a common military tactic.




Well, it holds no water for me. I'll explain why. Personally, i believe the Eldar to be MORE advanced next to the marines than the marines are to modern humanity. Seriously. The Eldar, tech wise, are beyond and above anything the imperium ever held at the heights of the age of technology.

This might be true but it dependso on the context, the time and the era. SM v Eldar is one thing, SM v Humans is another. the differences in technolagy become more pronouced. A SM gun can kill an eldar, and vise versa, but a human rifle wouldnt do jack, or u would be very luck etc...


When we look at the technology, i mean seriously look at the technology the imperium has today, its all a tad, old and crappy. The ships they use seem to operate on their own, because the tech blokes have no real idea how they actually work.

Well, at least they have space ships capable of warp travel and blowing up cities.


The weapons they use (the really hard hitting ones) are rare and incredibly hard to come across.

Not really, most space ships in W40k have huge guns on them.


The actual tanks are made of steel and nothing more (IIRC) which means that a Challenger II has a good chance against a Leman Russ

Plas-steel, which is somthing we havent invented, not to mention a lemun russ has a lass cannon etc...


and the modern airforcs are more than capable (in my eyes) of shooting down a thunderhawk gunship. Have you seen how utterly ridiculous those things are in terms or Aerodynamics? It couldn't possibly fly, let along dog fight with a Eurofighter. Its just silly really when you break it down.

Yes, granted the aerodynamics are rubbish, and a TH probably wouldnt fly, but thats just bad design from GW. the fluff records that a TH gos really fast, has amazing counter measures, and is probably AA missle proof, whilst carrying its own clever rockets and stuff.
Its an area thats is rubbish, its not as detailed or as well developed as the rest of W40k, mainly because the board game never really had use of them.



How does it get its Info? Send down spies in the form of a 400lb Jutt Jawed, knuckle dragging testosterone infested marine scout? Or is it all down to their 'superior' tech again?

Well this is covered above, but if your modern army can hack a network then I find it hard to belive that SM cannot.
Lets not forget, servitors ith half human/computers brains must be bloody good at that sort of thing, its the ultimate of huma/cyborg computers.



So, if thats the case, then its not really the 1000 marines doing the work or taking the planet is it? Its the ships from orbit and the 'human' crews of said ships. Again, lets get back to the debate at hand, 1000 marines + planet surface= No chance.

This is a really important quote, my argument began with me saying, its daft because 1000 marines would never fight a world by themselves. they use all thier advantages.


Ok. Command centres. You mean, impregnable nuclear bunkers and the like? Thats cool, but, how do they get in again? This wouldn't be like the Horus Heresy books where the leader of the opposing planet fights at the front with his boys. You wouldn't see Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, George Bush for that matter stood at the front weilding an SA80 in the general direction of the space marines. He would be a mile underground in a completely sealed everything proof bunker i'd say. We need to be realistic here.

I am being realistic, melta-weapons will eat through bunker doors pretty quickly.
Nuclear bunkers are protected with soilders, but u still need a door in and out at some point, and the largest bank vault doors in the world will still break under chainfist and melta-bomb.

this is the exact kind of war-far SM are bread for, close combat, in small confined spaces. think about it for a second. how many worlds do SM take over by force, how many space-ships do they board?

And on all of these im pretty sure the leaders will be protected in some sort of bunker, thats going to be a pretty common theme across the galaxy, so im pretty sure the SM would have developed a tactic, for you know, opening a door!



ok, the same land tanks that are pretty much designed on world war II blue prints? The tanks of today, in terms of force projection, speed and agility, are superior to just about any armour the marnies would field.

I dunno, apart from the rubbish look W40k tanks, a W40k preadator for example is supposed to be faster, made of tough materials, and carrys Las-cannons, that would eat modern armour.




So does every fighting force in the world in all fairness, thats nothing new Dante. Modern forces don't fight with overwhelming numbers anymore. Human wave tactics dies out in the first world war and are only used by archaic thinking Imperial Guardsmen. Modern warfare has no need for 'mass numbers' as you suggest. That only goes so far mind, to me, 1000 marines woudl still not be enough to conquor earth, regardless of special implants or training.

Mass numbers, there are 150k + US troops in Iraq, thats more than the 1000 SM we are using here, so id say its fair to say the modern army has more men than the SM army.

Anyhows, my point is, the modern army cannot move as fast as the SM army. the modern army is crippled from space first off. then the SM attack the heads of state, or whatever.
For example, modern day scenario.

Most of out troops are in Iraq of afghanistan.
Communication is knocked out or jammed.
Drop pods fall into the US and the UK (or where ever its deemd needed) and the SM attack thier government targets.
the troops across the world didnt see this, and, even if they did, how are they going to cross the planet?
And, I know for a fact that u can see Subs and boats from space using modern satalites, so if we can SM can, and they would have destroyed fom orbit most transport.
Before long, your screwed.



I never said they would land in plain sight, but you seem to be avoiding the issue. Can you please, let me know, where on earth 1000 marines could land without SOMEONE seeing them?

No i have answered it over and over, they can land anywhere they like!, its exactly the same as a modern army, they will destroy landing threats on a beach front for example before landing.
I have answered this through out my thread and it doesnt bare any relevence to the argument, if your military is crippled, and only postman pat spots the landing, who cares, postman pat and ted are not going to stop a SM with a pitch fork, or an AK47.

[quote]
Have you ever seen the Shuttle return from space? The colossal plasma trail it leaves behind as it thunders through the atmosphere. You can see it from 200 miles away.[quote]

Actually, no i havent, I live in the UK, so thats more then 200 miles away, actually, the earths so large, even the UK, that if dropped them in north scotland not many ppl in the UK could spot them.
And again, this has been covered above. its not a relevent argument.

Im not going to go over and over this debate, as internet arguments are daft.
In short, without using technolagy to distant from our own, its fair to assume that the SM can knock out or communications, military and world leaders, no matter where they are.

Now, and I want to be really really clear here, just so no one gos nuts, I dont belive 1000 SM on thier OWN could take modern planet earth for example. not unless they all started at prime locations, like, a nucelear silo, where they might be able to use the weapons against us, etc...

EIther way, it would be pretty slim but the moment its suggested that the SM drop pod in, and then the debate of 'but we would see' them starts, this opens the argument; the drop pods must drop from somthing? - ie a space ship!, which means its only fair to include everything the SM have in thier arsenal. Hence my argument.

So, to summerise, 1000 space marines appear on a planet like magic, and have no support. the SM lose.
A SM force turns up with a full chapter backing, the SM win.

Richter Kless
07-09-2007, 16:34
Chaos should be given more respect.
Nowadays, Chaos has lost every bit of grandeur it once possesed.
Guardsmen will now tell jokes about Chaos Marines and hold a record of how many Daemons they have killed.

The Eisenhorn books gave the Chaos Marines a good image. Merely looking at one makes people crap their pants or go instantly insane, they are the most cruel, vile, twisted monsters the galax knows and they are insanely powerfull.
This is even more true for Daemons. They are supposed to be walking nightmares, this is such an overused cliché nobody really understands how damn scary that is. Nightmares (the normal ones) are utterly frightening and most of the time incomprehendible. Now imagine if that manifested itself in front of you in an entity. I know I would run.

And for the love of Khorne give Abaddon something to brag about. 10000 years and 13 black crusades and all he has achieved it this? Come on GW, can't you invent some victories for him? Let him feast on some Craftworlds nobody really cares about, lets him annihalate some chapters and do some actual damage to the Imperium.

At least bring the Traitor Legions on equal threat level with the Tyranids and the Necrons.

Vesica
07-09-2007, 16:46
Chaos should be given more respect.
Nowadays, Chaos has lost every bit of grandeur it once possesed.
Guardsmen will now tell jokes about Chaos Marines and hold a record of how many Daemons they have killed.

The Eisenhorn books gave the Chaos Marines a good image. Merely looking at one makes people crap their pants or go instantly insane, they are the most cruel, vile, twisted monsters the galax knows and they are insanely powerfull.
This is even more true for Daemons. They are supposed to be walking nightmares, this is such an overused cliché nobody really understands how damn scary that is. Nightmares (the normal ones) are utterly frightening and most of the time incomprehendible. Now imagine if that manifested itself in front of you in an entity. I know I would run.

And for the love of Khorne give Abaddon something to brag about. 10000 years and 13 black crusades and all he has achieved it this? Come on GW, can't you invent some victories for him? Let him feast on some Craftworlds nobody really cares about, lets him annihalate some chapters and do some actual damage to the Imperium.

At least bring the Traitor Legions on equal threat level with the Tyranids and the Necrons.


The traitor legions and daemons on have real power over people when they fear them, but with the amount of religous indoctrination in 40k people dont see them as big scary things, but as something offensive to the Emperor.

I agree Abaddon hasnt really acheived much, and i think its time for him to go personally.

And in my opinion Traitor legions and Chaos its self ARE the biggest threat to Humanity.

Erebus26
07-09-2007, 18:02
I like Abaddon personally, apart from Kharn he is the biggest, baddest CSM about!!! Time for him to get a few victories under his belt!

Chaos should be the no. 1 threat to the imperium like it used to be! To many people in the imperium, and to many of the armed forces as well Space Marines are legendary figures that nobody knows much about. They are feared as well as respected, so imagine if a regular bloke comes across CSM's and daemons - I the last thought he would have would be to run, before being ripped apart by a chainsword or talons.

inq.serge
07-09-2007, 20:02
Ezikyle won a minor victory at last crusade (took control over the Cadian gate, even though he didn't conquer Cadia).

He killed Eldrad Ultran.

He conquered some of Vauls talismans (Blackstone Fortresses).

And he kicked people in the nuts.

Erebus26
07-09-2007, 22:26
Out of all the crusades he has lead, I reckon the 1st Black Crusade was the most successful - didn't it nearly reach terra?

azimaith
07-09-2007, 23:45
Before reading this post, please scroll to the end, and read the finnal paragraph, this post refers to a scenario rockerfella and myself have cooked up.
If your up to date on it, please go on.
Azimath, as per usuall you continue to go OTT, and talk gibberish, your usuall style of simply INSULTING people is a bit childish, and I will never respond to a single one of your posts because of this.

I go over the top and insult people? I'm sorry but I didn't insult you a single time. I simply used your method of arguing and applied it to necrons fighting marines to show how flawed it was. You don't need to respond to my posts if you feel so threatened by them. But when its that easy to basically replace space marine with necron in your post and get you upset its obvious theres a problem with your argument.



If the army sees it, then thats a problem, if I see it, I cant do jack to a SM, so it doesnt matter. this is a battle plan, again, using my human mind that has seen no real combat ill make an amazing plan of not dropping my marines near people. thats quite simple, the earths a big place, and if i do need to invade ill use Thunderhawks.

Where you going to drop it? Antarctica? You have to remember that controlled airspace is monitored constantly by radar designed to not only pick up incoming enemy planes by atmospheric pheneomena, like the phenomena of a pod screaming through the atmosphere. Hell, it would be unlikely for radio telescopes to not detect the craft as it came into orbit. Same whith thunderhawks. The best bet would be to land somewhere in Africa or another relatively undeveloped area where radar coverage is primitive and scarce, but then you can hardly hold the world by its testes by threatening an village elder.



Im pretty sure that all networks and communications could be hacked into, on all levels. it would be quite easy to find out where most armies are deployed, and again, lets be clear, I only need to combat the ones that are of importance to my mission, I dont care about the 20 sas in Iraq, im here to kill the president in the USA for example.

I wasn't aware space marines used windows. I'm sorry, that was an exaggeration, but the point is to hack into a system you need a compatible system to do it with. Beyond that you need to avoid detection and hard lock measures that shut down systems in danger of being compromized. You have to realize that the Imperiums technology is *found*. They haven't developed anything new for millenia. Besides, a craft in orbit would trigger the president, the prime minister, and everyone else into their bunkers.



Swings and round abouts, they have SM, and Laser cannons, Virus bombs and Titans, we dont. and its just a game...

Virus bombs don't mean much if your trying to take a planet alive. Titans are all well and good but their design is for loads of support on a battlefield, otherwise they're just giant targets. A thousand marines can't field and support enough titans to make them worth while, and even if they did, the amount they could destroy that wouldn't be taken care of easier with orbital bombardment is minimal.



I dont feel im assuming to much to be honest, im just taking a current military tactic, and moving forward a bit, im not taking anything unusuall, or making anything up, for example. Networking hacking, we do that all the time now, and a common military tactic is to always remove an enemys communication network, and modern militarys will hack networks, look at china in the news this week, so its not unusuall.

Actually network hacking doesn't really remove a communication network, you can mess it up for a while but it doesn't stop it. Beyond that there are back ups up the wazoo in modern military infrastructure. Remember this was all supposed to live through a nuclear war where EM pulse has knocked out most if not all the electronics we've got.



If I attack a house, i cut the phone lines, a country I knock out the radar etc... if I attack a planet, its not unfair to assume I do it on a larger level is it? thats a common extrapolation of a common military tactic.

The problem is the same as before. Intelligence. The Space Marines aren't going to suddenly know absolutely everything about the planet. They'd essentially be going in blind. The situation here is comparable to the SM facing off against the Tau. Its a completely different type of technology unlike what imperials are used to thus how it all works is different. You need to realize when a space marine is going to go destroy a radar dish its not because its a helpful machine, its because its a helpful machine whose machine spirit has been corrupted and it does its job by the sacred will of its machine spirit. They don't understand technology, there are rites and rituals for even demolitions.




This might be true but it dependso on the context, the time and the era. SM v Eldar is one thing, SM v Humans is another. the differences in technolagy become more pronouced. A SM gun can kill an eldar, and vise versa, but a human rifle wouldnt do jack, or u would be very luck etc...

Considering what modern weapon systems, even armor piercing ammunition on small arms can do, its unlikely you couldn't kill an SM. It would be a matter however, of massed fire (or a HEAP grenade). But when your talking about 1000 vs a million mass fire is not hard to get. And of course there are heavier systems that wouldn't have issue with it at all.




Well, at least they have space ships capable of warp travel and blowing up cities.

I don't think anyones going to deny their capability to blow the hell out of a planet from orbit, but in that case you could have a thousand guardsmen and do the same thing.



Not really, most space ships in W40k have huge guns on them.

Huge relative guns. Most use batteries of lances rather than big one shot guns. I think they only have Nova Cannons on 2 space marine ships.



Plas-steel, which is somthing we havent invented, not to mention a lemun russ has a lass cannon etc...

But we know plasteel is not stronger than 500 times conventional steel. IA states adamantium is 500 times stronger than conventional steel, since adamantium is stronger than plasteel, the result must be something less than adamantium. Considering the land raider, even with its adamantium is still easily penetratable by modern weapon systems then plasteel would be even less of an issue.



Yes, granted the aerodynamics are rubbish, and a TH probably wouldnt fly, but thats just bad design from GW. the fluff records that a TH gos really fast, has amazing counter measures, and is probably AA missle proof, whilst carrying its own clever rockets and stuff.

How is it AA missile proof. Countermeasures are only as good as long as you know whats being fired at you. Considering they were brought down in IA4 by spore mines its unlikely they are anything proof.



Its an area thats is rubbish, its not as detailed or as well developed as the rest of W40k, mainly because the board game never really had use of them.

Well the thunderhawk could use gravitics. Remember that imperial technology is found, not developed, thus you could have a super advanced tank with a miniature volcano cannon running on a steam turbine.



Well this is covered above, but if your modern army can hack a network then I find it hard to belive that SM cannot.

The modern armies know what kind of system and computers the networks they are hacking. The SM don't and don't even have compatible computers, thus could not hack it. It would be like putting a square peg in a round hole.



Lets not forget, servitors ith half human/computers brains must be bloody good at that sort of thing, its the ultimate of huma/cyborg computers.

Servitors are good for repetitive tasks, not things that require quick varied solutions. Regardless of how good he might be at, using the above example, putting a square peg in a square hole, he still can fit a round pet in a square hole.



This is a really important quote, my argument began with me saying, its daft because 1000 marines would never fight a world by themselves. they use all thier advantages.

Then why even say it.



I am being realistic, melta-weapons will eat through bunker doors pretty quickly.
Nuclear bunkers are protected with soilders, but u still need a door in and out at some point, and the largest bank vault doors in the world will still break under chainfist and melta-bomb.

This is why we don't use bank vault doors. We use blastdoors designed to hold against nuclear attack. If it can withstand a nuke, a chainfist won't do crap to it. A melta bomb or meltagun would fare better, but it wouldn't be done in time to avoid a response from within, which would result in a doorway massacre for the marines.



this is the exact kind of war-far SM are bread for, close combat, in small confined spaces. think about it for a second. how many worlds do SM take over by force, how many space-ships do they board?

And on all of these im pretty sure the leaders will be protected in some sort of bunker, thats going to be a pretty common theme across the galaxy, so im pretty sure the SM would have developed a tactic, for you know, opening a door!

Of course they have, but their tactic is against imperial technology which no one understands. The way they open doors could vary from setting charges to beseeching the machine spirit of the most holy locking mechanism to open.

As for taking worlds, the way SMs tend to take worlds is to kick the planetary gov' out on his ass and say: "Oi! Were in charge now!" They're imperials, they're used to that sort of thing. If theres rebellion they control it as best they can and may call in support if its overwhelming. The marines still have the PDF.



I dunno, apart from the rubbish look W40k tanks, a W40k preadator for example is supposed to be faster, made of tough materials, and carrys Las-cannons, that would eat modern armour.

Actually its not. The Predator, according to IA 2 is about as fast (and slightly slower off road) than modern tanks, made of weaker materials (thanks to the adamantium comparison to conventional steel combined with the knowledge the land raider is their toughest non-superheavy tank). As for lascannons eating modern armor, unlikely considering modern armor is designed to withstand incredible amounts of heat from anti-tank missiles. I'd put the lascannon somewhere slightly more effective at penetration that modern shaped charges but slightly less lethal considering the lack of fragmentation and blast.




Of course modern armies do. The SM are supposedly only in chapters of a thousand men.

[quote]
Anyhows, my point is, the modern army cannot move as fast as the SM army. the modern army is crippled from space first off. then the SM attack the heads of state, or whatever.

It depends what modern army, the modern army can move just about anywhere in the world within 24 hours (if not less). Once the space marines are on the ground thats kind of it unless they use thunderhawks. And if they do then thats a liability. Also the idea of attacking the heads of state is somewhat silly. For one the government can operate without the heads of state. Second, how will they even find them in the first place.



For example, modern day scenario.
Most of out troops are in Iraq of afghanistan.
Communication is knocked out or jammed.
Drop pods fall into the US and the UK (or where ever its deemd needed) and the SM attack thier government targets.
the troops across the world didnt see this, and, even if they did, how are they going to cross the planet?
And, I know for a fact that u can see Subs and boats from space using modern satalites, so if we can SM can, and they would have destroyed fom orbit most transport.
Before long, your screwed.

Heres a more accurate representation.
Most of the US troops are in Iraq and Afgahnistan.
Space Marine vessel is detected on long range radio-telescopes weeks before it arrives. Much speculation.
Countries go on alert as the vessel draws near.

World Leaders sequestered in bunkers such as Cheyenne mountain.

Satellites start going down to to enemy fire, Ship deemed hostile. Countries go on highest alert and prepare both nuclear and conventional arsenals. Troop mobilizations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the world in preparation for first contact.

Planetary radar detects incoming landing craft, leading world nations send forth emissaries in an attempt to propose peace. Emissaries eat bolter fire.

Marines storm capitols/parliment. Found empty.

Mobilizing strike forces told to engage enemies and destroy them. Ground based marines are struck with airstrikes, relatively inaccurate due to lack of GPS support. Mass casualties for marines as the Free-Worlds considerable airforce bombs the living snot out of them.

Marines go into hiding and fight Guerilla warfare. With only a thousand marines they will require reinforcements (which are not available). Marines are eventually hunted down and killed.

If your talking about a *realistic* attempt by marines to conquer earth with only a thousand men they'd skip it and bombard the planet into oblivion and plant a flag on the ruins.



No i have answered it over and over, they can land anywhere they like!, its exactly the same as a modern army, they will destroy landing threats on a beach front for example before landing.

Then why not just destroy all threats by hanging in orbit firing all day and not bother landing at all. The idea is marines without ships in orbit because that would make it too easy.



I have answered this through out my thread and it doesnt bare any relevence to the argument, if your military is crippled, and only postman pat spots the landing, who cares, postman pat and ted are not going to stop a SM with a pitch fork, or an AK47.

Your ignoring ground radar.



Actually, no i havent, I live in the UK, so thats more then 200 miles away, actually, the earths so large, even the UK, that if dropped them in north scotland not many ppl in the UK could spot them.
And again, this has been covered above. its not a relevent argument.

Im not going to go over and over this debate, as internet arguments are daft.
In short, without using technolagy to distant from our own, its fair to assume that the SM can knock out or communications, military and world leaders, no matter where they are.

No its not fair because it bears no sembelence of realism. Just because they are space marines doesn't mean they can look at a planet and understand absolutely everything about it. Its no more fair than claming a hundred necrons could find out where every single SM chapter master is at any one moment and take them out no matter where they go.



Now, and I want to be really really clear here, just so no one gos nuts, I dont belive 1000 SM on thier OWN could take modern planet earth for example. not unless they all started at prime locations, like, a nucelear silo, where they might be able to use the weapons against us, etc...

Then why are you arguing it using massive quantities of assumptions. Besides, nuclear silos can't be fired unless they have the right codes. Only a couple people in each nuclear nation know them. And before you say hacking, they are different operating systems.



EIther way, it would be pretty slim but the moment its suggested that the SM drop pod in, and then the debate of 'but we would see' them starts, this opens the argument; the drop pods must drop from somthing? - ie a space ship!, which means its only fair to include everything the SM have in thier arsenal. Hence my argument.

A space marine battle barge is going to be crewed thus your going to have alot less people on planet. Furthermore they don't have infinite quantities of ammunition. It would be just as fair to have the battlebarge fly off to some other conflict thats more important leaving the marines stranded until they complete their mission.



So, to summerise, 1000 space marines appear on a planet like magic, and have no support. the SM lose.
A SM force turns up with a full chapter backing, the SM win.
If they have a full chapter its not a thousand space marines. The entire idea of a thousand space marines in a single chapter is ridiculous as they'd have to be replacing the entire chapter every couple weeks to keep up with casualties.

Oninotaki
08-09-2007, 04:54
Hmm for me there are just a few things about each race that bother me(aside from the crappy explanations of all the mysteries) so I am just gonna make a list.

Imperial Guard/Navy: The numbers are way too small IMHO. If something is to big a threat for the PDF and or defense forces of an entire star system to warrant the attention of the imperial guard then I can't imagine why a force of anything smaller than say 50 billion imperial guard and a million or so ships should be sent. In my minds eye that should just be like the default amount of imperial guardsmen/navy sent. It should almost be like a reflex at this point for the imperium. But that is really just a numbers thing, I like everything else about the Imperial guard(minus ratlings lol)

Space Marines: I want there to be ruffly 1 billion of these guys, which equates to about a chapter a planet, but fluff wise you can break them up however you want. I also want each space marine to be as big as an ork warboss when naked.

All other imperial factions: I am fine with, most look ugly to me but that is just a style thing.

Eldar: I think craftworld and exodite eldar are fine, I dont like the idea of harlequins as a military force, and dark eldar are just super boring and could do with a lot more work.

Orks: I love everything about gw orks. There is not a single bit of there fluff that I am aware of that I dont like. Well aside from snotlings no longer being the brain boyz lol

Tyranids: I love tyranids too, especially with their latest codex. I think it is great that it takes a force from outside the galaxy to slowly wake the imperium up from its slumber. Hopefully this will be the force that makes humanity understand that what worked in this galaxy for 10,000 years wont work against things from outside this galaxy.

Chaos: The only problem I have with chaos is that they need 3 codexes in my opinion to cover all their stuff. Traitor space marines from the horus herasy and beyond, traitor guard/mutants/cults/other traitors, and last but not least all the crazy forces of the Daemon worlds.

Tau: I was very excited about the tau when I first heard of them. I was really hoping that they would be a race that was chasing the tyranids out from their galaxy(which they ruled through diplomacy, alliances, and the idea of "the Greater Good") and would be an example of what humanity could be. I also was hoping that they would want to bring their greater good to this galaxy by establishing a "beach head" through alliances with all the galaxies minor races. Sadly this is not what i got. I am however fine with how they look and function.

Necrons: I like necrons to the point that they are from dead worlds. I think it would be great if they were an ancient race who held all the plants that existed around dead stars and thats why no one really has much in the way of encounters with them because who goes to a star system with a dead star? That being said I do not like any of their fluff beyond the fact that they are from dead worlds and that they see the humans born without souls as the future of their race.

C'tan: Oh dear god did they mess up the C'tan. You can tell that this was not what they were originally hinting at at all, from the little tiny pieces of fluff that we had before. What the hell would a c'tan do with a c'tan phase sword? They just really dropped the ball on this one, I agree with just about everyone here when I say I am tired of the C'tan being behind everything.
I would have much preferred some crazy strange race from the halo worlds, the very fringe of the galaxy that was just really strange and beyond the understanding of the imperium.

Squats: I like them as the deimurge or however you spell that lol a nice minor race in 40k and am much more in favor of having a high gravity doctrine for imperial guard. So to sum up I like the idea of space dwarves actually being some strange alien races that has many of the features of fantasy dwarves and whatever doesnt make it in can be fluff for my high gravity imperial guard.

Ok I think that is everyone off the top of my head. Like I said before if its not listed here I have no problem with it.:D These are just the fluff dreams of one man :D

Drasriath
08-09-2007, 09:51
I hate that the Eldar are always portrayed in the books and excerpts as being weak and powerless. If they weilded the kinds of powerful technology, and superhuman psychic and physical potential they should kick ALOT more ass than they do.

I also hate the huge boner that GW has for the marines. They get the best everything, they always succeed and make everything else that by the fluff should be cool look bad. Why should every single well-trained marine in the Grey Knights chapter be as good at fighting as an Alien warrior with neigh indestructable armor, a powerful, more advanced weapon and hundreds of millenia long lifetimes worth of experience devoted soley to martial perfection when the marine only has a paltry few decades of experience and an antiquated weapon? Because he's a SMurf. If marines were worse at one thing than another race, I swear someone at GW would have a heart attack. From a gameplay standpoint it almost becomes just silly "Gently hovering down to the field on antigravity wings is more dangerous than being torpedoed into the ground from space! Totally!"

I also think they Tyranid's bio-adaptations and evolution is horribly overdone, it doesn't make them feel cool or frightening, just makes them feel god-mod-ish.

stormblade
08-09-2007, 10:32
Why should every single well-trained marine in the Grey Knights chapter be as good at fighting as an Alien warrior with neigh indestructable armor, a powerful, more advanced weapon and hundreds of millenia long lifetimes worth of experience devoted solely to martial perfection when the marine only has a paltry few decades of experience and an antiquated weapon?


- Because he is one of the finest of his race, because he is genetically and mentally honed to perfection when it comes to fighting, because he is about 8 feet tall and composed of about 500kg of muscles and because his weapon is probably not as half as antique as the one the Eldar is wielding(Especially if the mention weapon is as old as him).

Besides I've nowhere heard that Eldar armor is indestructible, I just thought that they make it so that it doesn't affect their mobility which is their greatest strength.

In essence Eldar warrior is probably more skilled and fast than a GK but GK is as 5 times as strong as him and as 10 times as fanatical.

I agree with you on the issue of Tyranids though.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
08-09-2007, 11:16
What I hate is the number of "what do you hate about ..." threads in a 40k forum started by people who seem to hate most of the game. If you dislike it that much, play something else.

I don't really hate anything in 40k. It is a game, using a fictitious setting where I get to move little toy soldiers around and pretend to annihilate my enemy (or die trying - generally the latter)



Agree on these points entirely. The hate X races or mythologies get are really boring and over the top IMO.

Emperor's Avenger
08-09-2007, 15:26
Things I hate... the enemies of the Emperor.

More specifically, 'nids, Eldar (both kinds), and Necrons especially. I'm not too keen on the new Renegade SMs either. It's alright to have a few to explain why there's so many CSMs around, but it seems the good old Traitor Legions have been forgotten in favour of those young upstarts.

Rotten
08-09-2007, 18:11
I hate the Eldar/Dark Eldar. Although I must admit GW has done an acceptable job getting them to fit in, I just don't think the concept of "elves in space" is cool. Never have, never will. One might argue that Orks and Squats should belong to the sphere of fantasy too. In the case of the Squats, I agree. I don't like their place in 40K either. When it comes to the Orks however, I think they're such a generic "bad guy-race" that they fit in almost anywhere without too much trouble. I do think that the Orks may be a bit too generic "bad guys", but that's another matter of discussion.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 19:38
They get the best everything, they always succeed and make everything else that by the fluff should be cool look bad. Why should every single well-trained marine in the Grey Knights chapter be as good at fighting as an Alien warrior with neigh indestructable armor, a powerful, more advanced weapon and hundreds of millenia long lifetimes worth of experience devoted soley to martial perfection when the marine only has a paltry few decades of experience and an antiquated weapon? Because he's a SMurf. If marines were worse at one thing than another race, I swear someone at GW would have a heart attack. From a gameplay standpoint it almost becomes just silly "Gently hovering down to the field on antigravity wings is more dangerous than being torpedoed into the ground from space! Totally!"



The Grey Knights are the best soldiers represented within the game. They are the very best the Imperium has to offer (outside of the allmighty Adeptus Custodes who aren't so active anymore)...they are specially equipped to deal with demons, but aliens die just as fast to a bullet or whatever it is the Grey Knights use.

Drasriath
08-09-2007, 21:51
- Because he is one of the finest of his race, because he is genetically and mentally honed to perfection when it comes to fighting, because he is about 8 feet tall and composed of about 500kg of muscles and because his weapon is probably not as half as antique as the one the Eldar is wielding(Especially if the mention weapon is as old as him).

Besides I've nowhere heard that Eldar armor is indestructible, I just thought that they make it so that it doesn't affect their mobility which is their greatest strength.

In essence Eldar warrior is probably more skilled and fast than a GK but GK is as 5 times as strong as him and as 10 times as fanatical.

I agree with you on the issue of Tyranids though.


The Grey Knights are the best soldiers represented within the game. They are the very best the Imperium has to offer (outside of the allmighty Adeptus Custodes who aren't so active anymore)...they are specially equipped to deal with demons, but aliens die just as fast to a bullet or whatever it is the Grey Knights use.


Right, but skill and speed win a fight. Musclemass is useless. There's also the part where an Eldar would have more than enough time to think through and weigh the advantages and disadvantages of every blow before striking and still outpace the marine. The marine would fight with predictable tiresome manuvers he learned in training... A Grey Knight would not have ANYWHERE near the level of martial perfection as even a young and 'inexperienced' exarch.

A marine can be honed to mental perfection, sure... but mental perfection for a human is the equivalent of a laughable dunce to the Eldar. An Eldar exarch should be able to dance around any space marine effortlessly and cut him to ribbons

"In essence Eldar warrior is probably more skilled and fast than a GK but GK is as 5 times as strong as him and as 10 times as fanatical."

And yet both have WS 5...

Eldar armor is supposed to be made of plastics that are 'As hard as Adamantium' to quote the Eldar codex, and are 'capable of being easily repaired with the proper application of psychic force.' But no... Human can match that, building armor off of ancient designs so far lost that they don't even know what the pieces they're assembling do, they just know they work. At SOME point the whole idea of humans being barbaric, ignorant savages just got lost.

Just it's 100% this humanocentric 'Space Marines are teh best evar' attitude that GW and the BL authors have that frustrates me most about Warhammer. They don't bother to read the other races' fluff and just assume that somehow power armor stands up to chainswords with diamond blades that end in a point only a single molecule across, or that somehow a race that can think thousands of times faster than a human, and move 'faster than most humans can even percieve' are completely incapable of dodging bullets, while some random well-trained human assassin is more than able to do so.

It's a dumb double-standard. The whole point of the universe is that there are no 'good guys' so GW needs to stop trying to make the humans and ESPECIALLY the space marines as heroic as they do.

Kage2020
08-09-2007, 23:18
Agree on these points entirely. The hate X races or mythologies get are really boring and over the top IMO.
You can, of course, love the universe and have a problem with one or two aspects of it. Heck, even all of it in little ways here and there. That doesn't stop you loving the universe.

It does, however, get harder when people go and tell you to "sling yer 'ook" all the time, though. ;) Erm, not saying that's what you're doing, though. Just thought that I would point it out since I've had the above levelled at me a number of times and it never takes into account how much you've got to "love" the universe in those circumstances and not just quit out of hand.

(That and ever since I stopped putting GW on a pedestal my opinion of them, their authors and their product, has changed markedly.)

Just something to keep in mind.

<dons asbestos suit>

Kage

FarseerMatt
08-09-2007, 23:24
They don't bother to read the other races' fluff and just assume that somehow power armor stands up to chainswords with diamond blades that end in a point only a single molecule across, or that somehow a race that can think thousands of times faster than a human, and move 'faster than most humans can even percieve' are completely incapable of dodging bullets, while some random well-trained human assassin is more than able to do so.

I'm guessing the game balance factor prevents an entire army getting 4+ invulnerable saves...don't know about books though. To be fair I do remember an article in WD (admittedly it was about DARK Eldar) crediting them with being able to "dodge lasbolts" and "kick incoming grenades back into the enemy ranks before detonation" and moving so fast that "the video must be played back at 1/4 speed to make out the individual warriors". That and all the Eldar codex background. Then again, this is as you say just background and I'm not sure about anything similar cropping up in bona fide novels.


The whole point of the universe is that there are no 'good guys' so GW needs to stop trying to make the humans and ESPECIALLY the space marines as heroic as they do.

Too true (heh, Eldar aren't the only victims, does anyone remember the utterly idiotic Tau in Kill Team and the Space Marine guy wiping the floor with an entire Crisis team in the same novel?). The argument that humans are the only characters that readers can empathise with and want to read about doesn't stand up coz there's more than enough Ork/Chaos/Eldar/Tau/whatever fans out there who would be quite happy to read a book starring that race...though I admit a Tyranid- or Necron-focussed book might be a little boring - not much dialogue :P

azimaith
08-09-2007, 23:36
A tyranid or Necron book could be very interesting, especially a necron book based in the era of the Necrontyr when the C'tan were just starting to take over. They have a clean slate and a species thats very easy to identify with. Cursed with short life spans and a terror of death unlike that of humans with these high and mighty Old Ones who just happen to be where they are because they got lucky. I could see empathizing with that (as long as its in a necrontyr style of thinking).

I remember way back when reading "Raptor Read" which details the life of a Utah Raptor for a season. Granted Tyranids might not leave tons of room for a story (but it could) there are many non-human races you can empathize with.

I think out of all the distinctly non-human races though, necrons are the best bet because we can understand their motives (Of the Necrontyr and the Necron lords)

jb85
09-09-2007, 00:04
Just it's 100% this humanocentric 'Space Marines are teh best evar' attitude that GW and the BL authors have that frustrates me most about Warhammer. They don't bother to read the other races' fluff and just assume that somehow power armor stands up to chainswords with diamond blades that end in a point only a single molecule across, or that somehow a race that can think thousands of times faster than a human, and move 'faster than most humans can even percieve' are completely incapable of dodging bullets, while some random well-trained human assassin is more than able to do so.

That is not a problem solely associated with SM, if you take a look at any races codex/novel it will talk them up. Eldar tanks that are virtually untraceable, numberless hordes of Tyranids, unstoppable Necron warriors etc. The reason that it seems skewed to SM is that there is more written about them/from their perspective than the other races. Since I started playing the background has always portrayed the SM as the finest fighting force in the galaxy.

As for writing from another races perspective I can appreciate the difficulties in it. The motivations, reasoning, ethics etc of an Eldar would be completely different to a humans making it difficult for the author to write them properly. There may be plenty of Eldar/Necron/Tyranid fans, but don’t mix up a wish for additional background material for what would make a good book.

stormblade
09-09-2007, 02:06
We have already concluded that Eldar are 'alien' to humans so saying that a mentally perfected human is nothing compared to the Eldar is either:

1. Saying that Eldar are actually better 'humans' and thusly denying all they're alien 'comments' eldar players(and a great percent of people who discuss human-eldar relations) usually use.

2. wrong, because if you try to compare two totally different things(in this case a human and Eldar mind) you should have some sort of basis for your comparison (that is something that they have in common) which you don't have(because, seemingly, there is none) and thusly any conclusion that you logically reach about Eldar mind being superior or inferior to human can only be accidentally correct.

And muscles are very important, look at that this way- if you are in a little above average shape for a human and you have had some training in close combat you will be more agile, skillful and smarter than a bear but he will still most probably turn you into a heavily mutilated cadaver.

And although you are right about SM getting too much attention you speak as though you want Eldar to take their place- that won't solve the problem, only substitute it with another.

Edit: And with the small risk of sounding subjective Culexus and Eversor assassins are best thing since sliced bread- you've got to love tht life leeching and drugged up lunatic roles they play in warhammer.
Also I actually like Eldar(especially Harlequins) but as I stated before- I'm not a 'real' fan.

Ktotwf
09-09-2007, 02:10
They should divide the publishing up...so that 75% deals with Chaos/Imperium, and the other 25% is about the Xenos races.

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 15:37
So, would you rather have Eldar turned into supermen who you can only field five at a time in a 2Kpoint game?

Balance, people...

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 15:49
Thankfully, in a 'fluff'-only consideration you don't actually need to consider Wargame Balance. :D

Kage

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 16:20
Oh yeah, you're talking about books.

In that case, Eldar should put up a better fight - but still have a severe chance of losing. Just like humans, one punch from a Space Marine will shatter their bodies. But unlike humans, their reflexes are amazing. Give a guardian a knife and he could dance merrily around a Space Marine, slowly cutting him up - but one mess up, and the Guardian would die. The same applies for every member of Eldar in melee with Space Marines - except for the fact that the Aspects kill them faster, the Exarchs kill them ever faster and expect the Autarchs to decapitate them with a single swipe.

As for ranged combat, well... Molecular thin spinny spinny woosh woosh blade shooters may be cool, but impractical. I'd rather take the semi-automatic, accurate, armour-piercing, mini-rocket launching SMG.

And as for armour - Wraithbone may harden when pressure is applied, but I would rather take the strength-enhancing, shell blocking, AI intense armour than I can move about perfectly in.

Sure, it doesn't make sense that Eldar have such crap gear if they are such great scientists. But then again, nothing in 40K makes sense. So, we best live with it. To be honest, Eldar should almost never be seen on the battlefield.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 16:27
Well, not even the books since then you have to take into account the agenda of the author and what requirements are necessary for the plot to move on. You can find numerous arguments on this topic on these forums.

As always, though, it really depends on how you model these things.

Kage

Tau_Pathfinder
09-09-2007, 17:00
IMHO I dont think that Tau has enough fluff text......

Lord_Crull
09-09-2007, 17:26
So, would you rather have Eldar turned into supermen who you can only field five at a time in a 2Kpoint game?

Balance, people...

I never said that, stop putting words in my mouth.

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 18:07
I'm not saying you said anything. I am merely presuming things judging from the previous text entered. You seemed to think that, or whoever the Eldar supporter was, that Eldar should be stronger. I am merely stating why they shouldn't be.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 18:11
...shouldn't be in the wargame, of course.

Kage

Lord_Crull
09-09-2007, 18:19
I'm not saying you said anything. I am merely presuming things judging from the previous text entered. You seemed to think that, or whoever the Eldar supporter was, that Eldar should be stronger. I am merely stating why they shouldn't be.

No, if anything the Eldar should be weaker. Falcon Grav Tanks are cheesy and unfair.

bertcom1
09-09-2007, 18:28
I still quite didn't get it from your last post beyond the idea of "guerilla tactics," the idea of misrepresentation of force, and the fact that this is beyond the standard representation of Marines from GW... :S

Kage

Marines are represented as being ruthless, without compassion, and the personification of Imperial retribution.

Given that state of affairs, operations against civilian infrastructure, which would destroy the morale and ability to fight of the opposition forces, seem a logical course of action.

1000 Marines are a force that would be capable of widespread terror operations, with the results being very damaging to most worlds. Exceptions being e.g. Hive worlds, where the civilian infrastructure is too difficult to reach.

Hlokk
09-09-2007, 19:33
No, if anything the Eldar should be weaker. Falcon Grav Tanks are cheesy and unfair.

Rail gun it in the face. Sorted.

I hate the Jokero. Space monkeys who can build a spaceship from a sheet of stickyback plastic and a paperclip. The Mcguyvers of 40k.

I also hate the C'tan, also known as "race that was inserted with the galaxy's largest shoe horn". Everything is the fault of the C'tan. Birth of the Eldar, ferrus's hands, the evil thing on mars, the creation of the necrons, the assassination of JFK, property prices in the UK...

I also intensely dislike the number of pariah's present in BL fiction. Cain has one, Eisenhorn had about 60, Ravenor had a few. It seems like you can't move for the bloody things.

I also dislike this "million worlds" thing about the imperium, yet every inquisitor and his dog is committing exterminatus as the first sign of a pink tenticle. It should be made up to 100 million or at least 10 million. Sounds a little pedantic, but for an empire which is supposed to cover the galaxy, its a little small.

Also, they should stop Eldar calling humans Mon Keigh, it sounds crap.

Dragonlover
09-09-2007, 20:52
The retcon to Horus' weaponry. He had two Talons back in 2nd Ed, suddenly he has this random mace and one Talon.

Chaos hardly ever win. Cadia should be several burning chunks of rock by now, godsdamnit!

Dragonlover

Drasriath
10-09-2007, 03:04
We have already concluded that Eldar are 'alien' to humans so saying that a mentally perfected human is nothing compared to the Eldar is either:

1. Saying that Eldar are actually better 'humans' and thusly denying all they're alien 'comments' eldar players(and a great percent of people who discuss human-eldar relations) usually use.

2. wrong, because if you try to compare two totally different things(in this case a human and Eldar mind) you should have some sort of basis for your comparison (that is something that they have in common) which you don't have(because, seemingly, there is none) and thusly any conclusion that you logically reach about Eldar mind being superior or inferior to human can only be accidentally correct.

And muscles are very important, look at that this way- if you are in a little above average shape for a human and you have had some training in close combat you will be more agile, skillful and smarter than a bear but he will still most probably turn you into a heavily mutilated cadaver.

And although you are right about SM getting too much attention you speak as though you want Eldar to take their place- that won't solve the problem, only substitute it with another.

Edit: And with the small risk of sounding subjective Culexus and Eversor assassins are best thing since sliced bread- you've got to love tht life leeching and drugged up lunatic roles they play in warhammer.
Also I actually like Eldar(especially Harlequins) but as I stated before- I'm not a 'real' fan.

No, incorrect. They're alien, but GW writers have often compared the two and considered the Eldar FAR superior. They state that the Eldar mind processes thought hundreds fo times faster than that of a human in several different places.


That is not a problem solely associated with SM, if you take a look at any races codex/novel it will talk them up. Eldar tanks that are virtually untraceable, numberless hordes of Tyranids, unstoppable Necron warriors etc. The reason that it seems skewed to SM is that there is more written about them/from their perspective than the other races. Since I started playing the background has always portrayed the SM as the finest fighting force in the galaxy.

As for writing from another races perspective I can appreciate the difficulties in it. The motivations, reasoning, ethics etc of an Eldar would be completely different to a humans making it difficult for the author to write them properly. There may be plenty of Eldar/Necron/Tyranid fans, but don’t mix up a wish for additional background material for what would make a good book.

I don't think that Necron or Tyranid fans for the most part are looking about fluff about their races' great success, or much less a book about their favorite race. Furthermore, while Space Marines are portrayed that way, the reasons given for their power are countered point for point, if not surpassed by the ability of other races, though this isn't reflected in BL novels, or in tabletop play.


I hate the Eldar, All Eldar players I have ever meant are arrogant pricks, oddly enough reflecting there fluff.

There was one guy who was nice, but he played Dark Eldar.

Anyway, for the Space Marines centuries of war experiance and Toughness 4 is just as good as the Eldar. If we went by what happened in the fluff they we would have single marines can take out entire armies of Guardsmen and surivive behing stepped on by Titans in termie armor.:p

Besides Grey Knights are guys who have been specially trained, gene-enhanced, and armed to fight deamons. Grand masters regulary slay Greater Deamons in close combat, which is more then I can say for Autarchs.

Besides it's funny seeing millenia old Eldar Warriors dying from rapid fire bolters at close range.:D

First off, reported, for being insulting. Second off if I was one of those arrogant and haughty Eldar fans, I'd get into a flame war with you right here for being a rude, flamebaiting poster. Really, your post says more about the maturity level of Space Marine fans than it does about Eldar fans. When unprovoked you suddenly slip into a personal attack, because you have no recourse other than to do so, without education or fluff to back up your feeble attempts at making a point.

The key difference being that Space Marine stories where they're needlessly invincible make no sense. None, at all. They should not be as skilled, as well equipped or as intelligent, and surely not as quick as the Eldar. The only traits they have going for them are physical toughness and zealousness.

Why do you never hear about Autarchs taking down greater daemons? Oh, that would be because of the 100% humanocentric twist that GW gives everything, which spawns fanbois like you.


So, would you rather have Eldar turned into supermen who you can only field five at a time in a 2Kpoint game?

Balance, people...

No, I wouldn't, but that's why the points system exists so that units can be more or less powerful than others. Eldar should not be a numbers army, and they should have something going for them on tabletop OTHER than holo-tanks, jetbike autarchs and fire dragons.


Oh yeah, you're talking about books.

In that case, Eldar should put up a better fight - but still have a severe chance of losing. Just like humans, one punch from a Space Marine will shatter their bodies. But unlike humans, their reflexes are amazing. Give a guardian a knife and he could dance merrily around a Space Marine, slowly cutting him up - but one mess up, and the Guardian would die. The same applies for every member of Eldar in melee with Space Marines - except for the fact that the Aspects kill them faster, the Exarchs kill them ever faster and expect the Autarchs to decapitate them with a single swipe.

As for ranged combat, well... Molecular thin spinny spinny woosh woosh blade shooters may be cool, but impractical. I'd rather take the semi-automatic, accurate, armour-piercing, mini-rocket launching SMG.

And as for armour - Wraithbone may harden when pressure is applied, but I would rather take the strength-enhancing, shell blocking, AI intense armour than I can move about perfectly in.

Sure, it doesn't make sense that Eldar have such crap gear if they are such great scientists. But then again, nothing in 40K makes sense. So, we best live with it. To be honest, Eldar should almost never be seen on the battlefield.

Actually Eldar are far more resliant than humans, having bones covering all of their vital organs and redunant organs that are reminescent of the Space Marines.

Exarchs by the fluff should be far more skilled than an Autarch. An Autarch only has one lifetime of experience, and his skill is spread over a plethora of different arts. An Exarch has hundreds of lives' experience, and their learnings apply only to ONE way of dealing death. They are utter perfection in their chosen fighting form.

SMG and accurate are a contradiction of terms. An SMG is a small rifle that fires a pistol round. Pistol rounds are lethal over short range, but lose energy and accuracy quickly after that. A carbine is the term for a short rifle. Still, a weapon's range and accuracy are based largely upon the length of it's barrel. Looking at a bolter, it's barrel is half to a third the length of an avenger's catapult... Another factor is recoil. An eldar weapon is supposed to have no recoil whatsoever, simply spewing it's payload whereever you aim it. Where as a 40mm or so slug that a bolter fires would have immense recoil that would test even a Space Marine's strength to keep it in control over long bursts. Another factor is rate of fire. The cyclic rate of a bolter can't match the hundreds of shurikens that an Eldar weapon fires every SECOND. Matched with the lack of recoil and the projectile this would make them FAR more lethal, since they would cut through the HEAVIEST of armor like a saw, whereas a bolter couldn't hope to hit the same place twice. The one advantage a bolter would have is transfer of energy. A larger striking surface means that the target will take more damage from a single shot, as the bullet will be more inclined to STOP and transfer it's energy into the target. This is the same reason that hollow point bullets are used. The mushrooming effect creates more transfer of energy, which creates more stopping power. However this would not improve a bolter's lethality over a shuriken weapon when you consider for each bolter slug hitting a target, several hundred shuriken would...

Moving perfectly in armor is also a contradiction. Armor of any kind keeps your body from moving in certain ways by it's nature. Looking at a space marine's armor there's plates that would keep them from making a number of motions. Furthermore 'As hard as adamantium' suggests that wraithbone is much more difficult to destroy than ceramite as the marine's armor is made of.

As for the last part, so true. Their machinations should change the universe, but they should remain puppeteers behind the scenes. WHen they do appear they should anihilate anything in their path even GW's beloved little Space Marines.


No, if anything the Eldar should be weaker. Falcon Grav Tanks are cheesy and unfair.

What else do the Eldar have that's cheesy and unfair, and answer me this, how much damage can a falcon do if you play correctly against an Eldar mech list? Nothing. That's right NOTHING. Any player of worth can tell you that against an Eldar mech list you make shaking every holo-tank a priority. What else costs 230-ish points? Oh, right, a MONOLITH. If you cry about Falcons you've never played against a multiple monolith list. Also... you know why all Eldar players use holofalcons? Because it's the only good list. If you really wanted to stop seeing them, you'd be asking to buff the Eldar so that players would choose to spend their points on otherworthwhile pursuits.

Tanith Ghost
10-09-2007, 04:19
No, incorrect. They're alien, but GW writers have often compared the two and considered the Eldar FAR superior. They state that the Eldar mind processes thought hundreds fo times faster than that of a human in several different places.

And for all that brainpower, they still managed to accidently make a chaos god and gut their empire in the process. So smart they didn't see the fall in front of them.




I don't think that Necron or Tyranid fans for the most part are looking about fluff about their races' great success, or much less a book about their favorite race. Furthermore, while Space Marines are portrayed that way, the reasons given for their power are countered point for point, if not surpassed by the ability of other races, though this isn't reflected in BL novels, or in tabletop play.

No more than the eldar's abilities and advantages are countered point for point by everyone else.



First off, reported, for being insulting. Second off if I was one of those arrogant and haughty Eldar fans, I'd get into a flame war with you right here for being a rude, flamebaiting poster. Really, your post says more about the maturity level of Space Marine fans than it does about Eldar fans. When unprovoked you suddenly slip into a personal attack, because you have no recourse other than to do so, without education or fluff to back up your feeble attempts at making a point.

You just did. You took another person's opinion as a personal attack as opposed to simply disagreeing.



The key difference being that Space Marine stories where they're needlessly invincible make no sense. None, at all. They should not be as skilled, as well equipped or as intelligent, and surely not as quick as the Eldar. The only traits they have going for them are physical toughness and zealousness.


And they should not be so because then the eldar would loose and that makes you mad?:eyebrows: It seems all you're saying is you want your army to be the poster boy.



Why do you never hear about Autarchs taking down greater daemons? Oh, that would be because of the 100% humanocentric twist that GW gives everything, which spawns fanbois like you.

Then write something for them. Yeah, it is centered on the galaxy spanning Imperium that's lasted ten thousand years of a constant pile-on.
You don't have to play the game you know.



No, I wouldn't, but that's why the points system exists so that units can be more or less powerful than others. Eldar should not be a numbers army, and they should have something going for them on tabletop OTHER than holo-tanks, jetbike autarchs and fire dragons.

Nobody forces you to make a list of those units. You want a different list, write one and use it. Dead simple.




Actually Eldar are far more resliant than humans, having bones covering all of their vital organs and redunant organs that are reminescent of the Space Marines.

And yet they can still go 'splat' like anything else. Eldar bleed too. Sorry, but they bleed and can die.




Exarchs by the fluff should be far more skilled than an Autarch. An Autarch only has one lifetime of experience, and his skill is spread over a plethora of different arts. An Exarch has hundreds of lives' experience, and their learnings apply only to ONE way of dealing death. They are utter perfection in their chosen fighting form.

Actualy one of my favorite things about the eldar. The exarch is both revered for his(or her) skills in warfare, but also pitied for their fate of being trapped in one aspect of the path never to escape.




SMG and accurate are a contradiction of terms. An SMG is a small rifle that fires a pistol round. Pistol rounds are lethal over short range, but lose energy and accuracy quickly after that. A carbine is the term for a short rifle. Still, a weapon's range and accuracy are based largely upon the length of it's barrel. Looking at a bolter, it's barrel is half to a third the length of an avenger's catapult... Another factor is recoil. An eldar weapon is supposed to have no recoil whatsoever, simply spewing it's payload whereever you aim it. Where as a 40mm or so slug that a bolter fires would have immense recoil that would test even a Space Marine's strength to keep it in control over long bursts. Another factor is rate of fire. The cyclic rate of a bolter can't match the hundreds of shurikens that an Eldar weapon fires every SECOND. Matched with the lack of recoil and the projectile this would make them FAR more lethal, since they would cut through the HEAVIEST of armor like a saw, whereas a bolter couldn't hope to hit the same place twice. The one advantage a bolter would have is transfer of energy. A larger striking surface means that the target will take more damage from a single shot, as the bullet will be more inclined to STOP and transfer it's energy into the target. This is the same reason that hollow point bullets are used. The mushrooming effect creates more transfer of energy, which creates more stopping power. However this would not improve a bolter's lethality over a shuriken weapon when you consider for each bolter slug hitting a target, several hundred shuriken would...

Given the choice I'll take the bolter every time. The shurkins ay or may not do damage inside the armor. But a bolt guarentees the target being a big splat when the mass reactive round goes off inside the target's vitals.





Moving perfectly in armor is also a contradiction. Armor of any kind keeps your body from moving in certain ways by it's nature. Looking at a space marine's armor there's plates that would keep them from making a number of motions. Furthermore 'As hard as adamantium' suggests that wraithbone is much more difficult to destroy than ceramite as the marine's armor is made of.


Would that nt apply to the eldar too then?:eyebrows:



As for the last part, so true. Their machinations should change the universe, but they should remain puppeteers behind the scenes. WHen they do appear they should anihilate anything in their path even GW's beloved little Space Marines.

And because of this advantage, X army should wipe out anything they see, even y army.:rolleyes: That can be said about anyone.



What else do the Eldar have that's cheesy and unfair, and answer me this, how much damage can a falcon do if you play correctly against an Eldar mech list? Nothing. That's right NOTHING. Any player of worth can tell you that against an Eldar mech list you make shaking every holo-tank a priority. What else costs 230-ish points? Oh, right, a MONOLITH. If you cry about Falcons you've never played against a multiple monolith list. Also... you know why all Eldar players use holofalcons? Because it's the only good list. If you really wanted to stop seeing them, you'd be asking to buff the Eldar so that players would choose to spend their points on otherworthwhile pursuits.

Cheese is what people cry because they lost. I don't whine over what my opponent takes. I always have enough guns to win with the guard.
Let them dodge and shoot, hop all over, or resist fire well. THat tooled falcon is still dead as dead if it gets clobbered enough.

As for the monolith, if you're not just going for the phase out, you deserve your decimation. Ignore the pyramid, ugly as it is. Shoot down the warriors, and they vanish too.

Drasriath
10-09-2007, 05:25
And for all that brainpower, they still managed to accidently make a chaos god and gut their empire in the process. So smart they didn't see the fall in front of them.

The Eldar mind is always said to be prone to obsession. Most of the Eldar simply became obsessed with seeking pleasures in increasingly depraved ways. Those that saw what was coming left and became exodites or Craftworld Eldar.


No more than the eldar's abilities and advantages are countered point for point by everyone else.

Not really, when you read the fluff Eldar should be pretty high tier on the scale of power on a one-to-one basis. This is NOT reflected in the tabletop game or in the novels.



You just did. You took another person's opinion as a personal attack as opposed to simply disagreeing.

"I hate the Eldar, All Eldar players I have ever meant are arrogant pricks, oddly enough reflecting there fluff."

Making the gross generalization of Eldar players being arrogant pricks? I find that rather insulting. I could as easily state my mind about Space Marine fans, from the clipping I've met, but I choose not to because it would be insulting.

"Besides it's funny seeing millenia old Eldar Warriors dying from rapid fire bolters at close range."

No point to that remark other than to be scathing and flippiant.

Case closed. I've never seen that poster make an intelligent conversation, let alone post to this day.


And they should not be so because then the eldar would loose and that makes you mad? It seems all you're saying is you want your army to be the poster boy.

No, they should not be so because there is no explaination for their GODLIKE power in the fluff. Eldar should make a mockery of Space Marines by the fluff... yet somehow they don't. There's no logic behind saying "A genetically enhanced human can attain more experience in 40-some years than an alien with a brain wired to learn and adapt more quickly can in several hundred years... several hundred times over." It's a dumb cop out, created by people who can't stand to see Space Marines as mortal...

AS THEY SHOULD BE.


Then write something for them. Yeah, it is centered on the galaxy spanning Imperium that's lasted ten thousand years of a constant pile-on.
You don't have to play the game you know.

Have been. Not that it will be accepted into the BL as it actually gives the Eldar some degree of glory. A thing that's CLEARLY not allowed in ANY GW text including even their tabletop game.


Nobody forces you to make a list of those units. You want a different list, write one and use it. Dead simple.

Actually GW does by making no other units viable choices when compared to the uber-powerful units other races have. Eldar get to hide in tanks all game and jump units that are cut off when and only when they have a numerically superior advantage. Have you ever seen a non-mechanized list win a tournament or other competitive game? No? Didn't think so.


And yet they can still go 'splat' like anything else. Eldar bleed too. Sorry, but they bleed and can die.

And so can Space Marines.


Actualy one of my favorite things about the eldar. The exarch is both revered for his(or her) skills in warfare, but also pitied for their fate of being trapped in one aspect of the path never to escape.

No arguements there. I find it to be an interesting point of the fluff as well. Still, they should be far more powerful than an Autarch. In 2nd edition they were actually hero-type units.


Given the choice I'll take the bolter every time. The shurkins ay or may not do damage inside the armor. But a bolt guarentees the target being a big splat when the mass reactive round goes off inside the target's vitals.

One shuriken might not, 50-60 sure will. Not to mention a bolter round will cleanly penetrate, whereas if a shuriken goes through the victim, it may well start ricocheting around the inside of the armor through the victim time and time again. A shuriken catapult should be far more lethal when properly employed than a bolter.


Would that nt apply to the eldar too then?

No. Eldar armor doesn't work like power armor. It's a flexable material that hardens in response to a blow, much like the reactive armor that's being developed for military use to replace the obsolete CERAMIC PLATES. Sounds interestingly relevant, doesn't it?


Cheese is what people cry because they lost. I don't whine over what my opponent takes. I always have enough guns to win with the guard.
Let them dodge and shoot, hop all over, or resist fire well. THat tooled falcon is still dead as dead if it gets clobbered enough.

As for the monolith, if you're not just going for the phase out, you deserve your decimation. Ignore the pyramid, ugly as it is. Shoot down the warriors, and they vanish too.

Cheese is what exists in the game and makes imbalanced lists possible to play. It's why a novice player with a las/plas space marine army stands a good chance of beating a far more experienced player with a more legitimate list. I win almost all my games, and I do play what I consider to be a cheesy list, simply because all competitive lists are... which is the biggest reason I've resigned from competitive play. It's too much rock/paper/scissors with most races. The lists make or break the game rather than the players, and that shouldn't be possible.

Yes... just phase out the necron warriors who are hiding in the back edge of the board next to a lord with a res orb while two mono's some destroyers and a C'tan are running around killing all your stuff. The chances of a LASCANNON killing a necron near a lord with a res orb and a monolith to port through the following turn is around 1/5. 1/10 if you take into account a BS of 3.

Chilltouch
10-09-2007, 05:56
Eldar may dance about the enemy in a skilled and lethal dance of death but Space Marines are also skilled and are far stronger and far tougher. If the Eldar, whether it's an Autarch or a Guardian slows down its rain of blows and evasive action, or if it makes a single mistake, high chances are that it will be instantly killed by the Astartes.

When you compare Eldar and Space Marines, Eldar are pure skill and Space Marines are pure power. Give the Space Marine a chance to hit and it will kill. And it takes the Eldar more than one, or probably ten hits to bring down a Space Marine due to their legendary toughness.

And I personally think Shuriken over bolts as well. Sure, they have a gun that fires out spinny spinny woosh woosh blades. That's fantastic. But the Space Marine standard weapon is an accurate, semi-automatic, armour piercing and mini-rocket launching SMG. One bolt and without much luck, you're dead.

Drasriath
10-09-2007, 06:00
Eldar may dance about the enemy in a skilled and lethal dance of death but Space Marines are also skilled and are far stronger and far tougher. If the Eldar, whether it's an Autarch or a Guardian slows down its rain of blows and evasive action, or if it makes a single mistake, high chances are that it will be instantly killed by the Astartes.

When you compare Eldar and Space Marines, Eldar are pure skill and Space Marines are pure power. Give the Space Marine a chance to hit and it will kill. And it takes the Eldar more than one, or probably ten hits to bring down a Space Marine due to their legendary toughness.

And I personally think Shuriken over bolts as well. Sure, they have a gun that fires out spinny spinny woosh woosh blades. That's fantastic. But the Space Marine standard weapon is an accurate, semi-automatic, armour piercing and mini-rocket launching SMG. One bolt and without much luck, you're dead.

Of course armor is a factor too. No creature save for a tyranid is going to outright kill someone with a single blow in melee. Unless someone's weilding a powered weapon or strikes a critical blow... And legendary toughness? You mean denser bone, a few reduntant organs, heart and lungs only, and a solid rib plate (there a reason humans evolved a rib cage, it absorbs impact better than a single plate). That sounds like only partially super-human to me. A single well placed blow could take down a 'legendary' space marine.

And did we all miss the part where for every bolter shot there should be around 80 or so shurikens in the air? Also... go you for not reading any of my other posts. If it launches rockets it's clearly not an SMG. (Rockets aren't pistol rounds)

Chilltouch
10-09-2007, 06:18
By legendary toughness, I mean something more like you could probably riddle them with autogun bullets when they're not wearing armour and they would probably still being able to move about, although quite severely injured. Meanwhile, I can't see a member of the Eldar doing something like that.

And it would probably take a melee Exarch or somebody of equal skill to bring down a Space Marine in a single blow. And yes, I would say Space Marines are fairly legendary, even among aliens. There's a smaller number of Space Marines than Eldar, even, I would say.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 09:21
I agree that the marine would have a higher tolerance to pain and non-lethal wounds. So the Eldar probably wouldn't attempt to riddle the marine with autogun bullets - I imagine that when in close combat with a marine he'd go for a quick finish by slashing at the neck joint (I think this has been established as one of the weak points in power armour*) and cut the marine's head off. Or something similar.

*It ain't invulnerable after all - in the old SM codex the humble Ork shoota puts "two fist-sized holes" in a marine's breastplate.

TomsDad
10-09-2007, 12:04
No, they should not be so because there is no explaination for their GODLIKE power in the fluff. Eldar should make a mockery of Space Marines by the fluff... yet somehow they don't. There's no logic behind saying "A genetically enhanced human can attain more experience in 40-some years than an alien with a brain wired to learn and adapt more quickly can in several hundred years... several hundred times over." It's a dumb cop out, created by people who can't stand to see Space Marines as mortal...

AS THEY SHOULD BE.



I'm not quite sure what you advocate doesn't end up being what your complaining about in the first place. At the end of the day its a point's based war game.

If you make the elder twice as powerful as the marines you will end up with tiny armies of elite soliders fighting out it will turn into inquisitor.

And I'll guess that the other armies will suddenly become unfair because you'll be outnumbered so horribly :)

You blame cheesy armies and then say you also play a cheesy army in self defense, which sounds like your complaininbg about people using the same set of rules as you! You can't have it both ways.

You rightly complain about being insulted (you were), but then use similar language and infer insults right back. Your posts end up looking like MY "insert army race" IS THE BEST, MY "insert army" IS NERFED BY JEALOUS GW etc

There's been a lot of physial comparison between elder and SM trying to to back various arguments for each one being the BEST.

So god help me, I'll have a go:

Both are elite 'small' well trained fighting forces. The SM are teh elite of a much larger group, the Elder are elite due to higher tech, experience (i.e their whole force is elite)

I will compare them as martial arts,

The eldar are jet li kung fu stars, fast fluid, mysterious etc

SMs are worldclass boxers, stong, tough unstopable etc

both are highly trained both have strengrths ands weaknesses and without getting into a big hoo haa about mixed martial arts both can win and lose.

FigureFour
10-09-2007, 12:47
I don't like it when GW represent Space Marines as good guys, or the Imperium to be OK once you get to know it. They're EVIL! Space Marines are not white knights riding in to save the day, they're zealots who massacre anyone disagreeing with/working against their facist, knowledge-fearing, theocratic dictatorship of a government.

Just because everyone else is worse doesn't make Space Marines good.



Tau are nicer... :D

I really don't like that almost every army is represented as "The GREATEST THREAT TO THE IMPERIUM EVER" when its codex is released... Every codex trumps the previous one in the badness stakes (BACKGROUND, NOT RULES) in a fluff version of Codex Creep... It was the Necrons, then it was Chaos, then it was Tyranids, now it's Chaos again, and soon it'll be Orks... Great... We get it... The 41st Millenium is a terrible place to live...

This kind of thinking comes from not understanding the source of various pieces of fluff. Yes the Necron codex it says that the Necrons are the greatest threat to the universe, because that's what the Necrons believe. The Chaos codex says that Chaos is the greatest threat to the universe because that's what Chaos believes.

It's the same reason why if you read some fluff it says that Space Marines and the Imperium are glorious, noble and good. Because the Imperium thinks they are. From other perspectives this isn't true, but all the fluff is presented subjectively.

And the 41st millenium IS a terrible place to live. It's a universe designed (by GW) as a constant source of strife and warfare. None of the races have "functional" governments because no functional government could remain in a state of war for thousands of years.


What I'd much rather is GW to say "This is the universe, these are the races, this is where they are, this is how many of everyone there is, these are the territories and resources they have, oh, wow, look, the Imperium's actually doing pretty well for itself if it doesn't implode, but it's kinda not cool for them cos they've got so many enemies" and so on and so forth... The Imperium is not the helpless Japanese watching Godzilla and Mothra duke it out over their defenceless city. They have more guns and more cannon fodder than everyone else... Blah... :eyebrows:

That would be a rather boring aproach and would prevent GW from innovating in the future. Hammering down all the details would be a bad idea and frankly, it would be totally impossible. They've got a whole universe to define there.

As for the Imperium being helpless and watching this **** go down, I don't think you've been paying attention. The Imperium starts at least half these "Godzilla" battles, and wins most (because they're GW's favourites).


How can one waste room on a potentially indefinate amound of space? Beats me.

Potentially indefinate? Do you mean potentially infinite? Because if so, you're wrong. Warseers servers (or even the internet as a whole) can contain a finite amount of data. If that's NOT what you meant, I don't even think that makes sense.

The amount of space here is definate, even if the posters don't know the definition.


I never really liked Tau that much. The look, the concept, their fluff. Something about them never appealed to me. I guess it's because they look "too much like Japanese anime robot aliens".

I don't like their "anime robots" deal, especially since their robots are UGLY (except stealth suits). Also the fact that Tau players seem to latch on to the "We're the good guys," idea from their fluff. At least Space Marine players realise that the "good guys" are racist, fanatical killing machines.


Yea im not to keen on that idea either, because they would never lose if they believed it.

Da boyz never lose! Either we win, and den we win; or we lose, and den we is dead so dat doesn't count; or we run so we is finishing the fight later, so we is not lost yet!


Cancelled Firefly? C'tan.

Hey. We had nothing to do with that one.

TomsDad
10-09-2007, 13:11
So as i said what do you guys hate in the 40k universe?

Sorry didn't answer the original thread question, which is a bit rude considering I bitched about someone elses post!

I've been playing Warhammer since rogue trader, and I think the only thing I don't like is the Necron in general, and the stuff about the C'tan in particular.

In general I don't like the look, and I don't think the Necron are vey varied in nature enough to be interesting. I also don't like Undead in WFB which I think are the same for the same reasons.

The C'tan background I thinks suits a roleplaying game better than a wargame but I do like the 'twilight of the gods feel to it'

I don't like the old ones creating the young races. It makes the galaxy a bit planned for my taste. I prefer the galaxy to be a bit more chaotic (with a small c).

Unlike a lot of the older players (horrible generalistion I know) I do like the Tau, I like that the galaxy is big enough to have a localised force that looks radically different from what's gone before in the game. And I think the fluff is well done so as to explain were they came from.

More importantly they have a very unique game style to go with them, which I think is a good thing.

I also don't mind the 'This is the biggest threat to the Imperium' competition,

As someone else said its a matter of perspective (but from the people actually being threaterned) I think the Imperium is too monlithic and hidebound to recognise or act in concert against anyone threat anymore. so what you have is indvidual groups in the imperium high command thinking that the 'nids or Chaos or Necrons are the current big threat (again the infighting here would be class for a roleplaying game)

Sorry this turned into alist of things I don't mind about 40k not what I hate.

Oh wait, I liked the squats. I didn't mind them going down to the 'nids but if it had been played up abit more it would have been more epic! rather than just a retcon for binning them.

stormblade
10-09-2007, 13:18
No, incorrect. They're alien, but GW writers have often compared the two and considered the Eldar FAR superior. They state that the Eldar mind processes thought hundreds for times faster than that of a human in several different places.


- Yes, but how were they even able to compare them, on the basis of what: IQ tests, cognitive maps, did they threw an Eldar and a Human in a maze and watched who is going to get out first- clearly GW threw something 'just like that ' in the fluff and Eldar players, without being too inquisitive about something which portrays their favorite race as better, just took it as granted.

How do the Eldar think anyway? Are they able to logically analyze things the same way as human or are they more of an impressionistic race. How perceptive are they, how abstract thinking are they- are any of this questions accounted for?

So you see just saying "They are much smarter than humans."- is sort of a simplified and faulty way of analyzing and discussing fluff.

Edit: The thing I hate about W40k- the faulty and self contradicting fluff, the infinite amount of exaggerations when it comes to describing this and that and the prices of the figurines.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 18:05
How do the Eldar think anyway? Are they able to logically analyze things the same way as human or are they more of an impressionistic race. How perceptive are they, how abstract thinking are they- are any of this questions accounted for?

Hmmm...well, given the baffling nature of trying to read the future, I imagine Seers at least are pretty good at lateral thinking :P

The Eldar affinity for the arts suggest imagination being important to them, nevertheless to learn and understand requires logic, and the apparent Eldar desire to understand things in depth (persue each Path unto perfection etc) suggests to me that they have focussed and perceptive minds, though their logic might be slightly different to humans' due to their different cultural values.

They see no real difference between nature and science for example (hence their "organic" looking constructions) and have a fine eye for beauty and elegance (hence the incorporation of art and aesthetic alongside functionality into most if not all aspects of their technology).

This is a major factor in the Eldar psyche - like elves they have never really lost touch with nature despite their technological advancement. As a psychic race they are highly spiritual, and they value life - though as a highly developed race they value their own lives above those of younger species and if they have to make a choice they'll pick mon-keigh genocide every time. They do not despise humans merely because they are comparitively undeveloped though - they hate them for the barbarity of the Imperium and the havoc it wreaks on the galaxy's life and ecosystems (including of course the Eldar), and for its weakness in resisting Chaos (slightly hypocritical given the Fall, but at least the Craftworlders learned from their mistake).

But as a highly-developed race they also have a great sense of responsibility - to "right the discord in the universal opus" as Farseer Taldeer puts it in Winter Assault. They fight Chaos which threatens not only them but the galaxy as a whole, and they are protective of the Tau (and even a few more promising humans) in whom they see potential. Basically the arrogant gits see themselves as the Guardians of the Galaxy and don't think they can trust anyone else to be able to do it :P

Kage2020
10-09-2007, 18:38
Of course, while I agree with the importance of responsibility to the Craftworld Eldar, I would not want to extend it to mean that it is done for "universal harmony." Although you could, it just depends on your interpretation of the Eldar. Equally it could be done to address the wrong done to the Eldar race, returning them to power, etc.

Incidentally, if it means anything coming from me, I really quite enjoyed that post, FarseerMatt.

Kage

Grimbad
10-09-2007, 21:59
Too many humanoid races.
Seriously, if GW came out with Space Jellyfish I'd buy 2000 points then and there.

mistformsquirrel
10-09-2007, 22:38
The primary thing I hate in 40k isn't necessarily in the background itself, but rather the way some players seem to think.

What I hate is when someone, ANYONE gets the idea that their army is somehow just 'better' than anyone else's.

I'm sure we've all had times where we've just wanted to kick someone in the teeth for one of the following:

But SPACE MARINES can't be beaten! They're like, walking tanks with super-human strength and toughness!

Or...

Eldar are SO much better than crappy humans; the average Eldar is far smarter than the Emperor ever could have dreamed to have been!

Or...

Tau suck! (What? I rarely see anyone being a Tau Supremacist, but I DO see a lot of hate for them)

You get the idea.

I like just about everything in the 40k background as it is; and I guess I just get annoyed when people feel the need to claim a part of it should be written out because they don't like a piece of it. The whole is what makes it interesting to me.

Honestly, even though I'm rather new to the whole thing, I'd also love to see the Squats come back - they'd be brand new to me I admit, but they seem kinda cool as well; and I'd love to know what the heck they're all about.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 23:05
Of course, while I agree with the importance of responsibility to the Craftworld Eldar, I would not want to extend it to mean that it is done for "universal harmony." Although you could, it just depends on your interpretation of the Eldar. Equally it could be done to address the wrong done to the Eldar race, returning them to power, etc.

Incidentally, if it means anything coming from me, I really quite enjoyed that post, FarseerMatt.

Kage

Thanks very much Kage, I try :)

And yes, I imagine righting ancient wrongs is definitely up there somewhere on the list of long-term goals. :P Or rather, righting the wrongs of their ancestors. Ynnead, Khaine, Cegorach and the Emperor taking on the Chaos Gods, now I'd like to see that ;)

Pooky
10-09-2007, 23:12
Things I hate in 40k? Fluff wise, I hate magic. Combat should be fought up close and personal. That's why I love "martial pride" armies like BT's or Khorne. Not so much BA because they are not into martial pride, but more just about killing since they are messed up in the head. In a twisted way I also like Slaanesh since they are about martial pride too, but their use of magic eers me a little. The best quote to summarise this came from a white dwarf "Let the petty weak magic users use their magic!" :evilgrin:

Something else I hate, but still have RESPECT for, is the mech IG. I don't like the whole needing tanks to obliterate the enemy from afar then feeling pride when their little weak soldiers finish off the last fragments of the enemy with so much lasgun fire it's not funny. Don't get me wrong, it's a totally valid method of playing IG, it's just that I don't see the martial pride in it! :eyebrows: Conversely, if you do manage to close the distance with an elite unit of warriors then the tide usually turns.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 23:46
Things I hate in 40k? Fluff wise, I hate magic. Combat should be fought up close and personal. That's why I love "martial pride" armies like BT's or Khorne.

Hehe this is where you can run into trouble with some of the less honourable individuals in the 40K universe :P

Black Templar - "Come on then, traitor scum!"
Night Lord - "Why don't you just shoot me?"
Black Templar - "Bah, there is no honour in that. I don't fight that way."
Night Lord - "Ha ha, I do..."
BLAM

Lord_Crull
11-09-2007, 01:28
Hehe this is where you can run into trouble with some of the less honourable individuals in the 40K universe :P

Black Templar - "Come on then, traitor scum!"
Night Lord - "Why don't you just shoot me?"
Black Templar - "Bah, there is no honour in that. I don't fight that way."
Night Lord - "Ha ha, I do..."
BLAM

Ahh, good one seeing as I play Night Lords.