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Savant
04-09-2007, 17:09
On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being stupid and 10 being incredibly stupid?

Basically, while all of the Emperor's sycophants within the 40k canon whinge on about how fantastic and holy he is, etc, everything he ever actually did seems to contradict this. What exactly was his thought process, having conquered Earth after the age of strife, anyway?

I'm the Emperor, immortal and nigh-indestructable! What should I do next? Oh, I know! I'll go betray and **** off the only beings in existance who could conceivably harm me, the warp gods, in order to create another race of beings who could kill me, the Primarchs, who I will then treat like crap. PURE GENIUS!

Uh huh. And in an attempt to outdo his own collosal stupidity, what does he do during the HH?

Elrad - Hey, I've come to warn you that Horus will betray you.
Emperor - Nuh uh, I don't believe you! Go away Eldar! Your race is gay lol.
Magnus - No, seriously, he will.
Emperor - I don't believe you either, wussy little sorceress.
Numerous Space Marines and Primarchs - Horus just killed 4 Space Marine legions and turned half the Imperium against you! Billions are being killed in civil war!
Emperor - Surprisingly, I still choose to believe Horus isn't evil.
Horus - Haha, I'm evil! Look, I killed Sanguinus and everything.
Emperor - Nope, not buying it.
Horus - Uh... huh... Look, let me prove it. *guts the Emperor*
Emperor - Ack... Nope... still must be some *cough* good in you. Hey, can I have my spleen back?
*Horus kills single terminator, keeping in mind he JUST KILLED A PRIMARCH AND THE EMPEROR SAW IT*
Emperor - HOLY FUDGE, HE'S BEYOND REDEMPTION!!!
Horus - Blarg, i r dead

I'm having a seriously hard time seeing the Emperor as anything buy a complete and total *****. Is there nothing in the fluff that redeems him? Anything that justifies all that? Or is it just plain bad writing?

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 17:18
Well, if he was omniscient or precognitive he knew it was all going to happen and maybe couldn't risk changing/wasn't able to change anything.

Or, he planned it all this way in the first place, and needed a way to slap down the chaos gods in the material world so he could follow up as they reeled away and he could seal them in the immaterium.

We currently really have no insight into the Emperor's thinking, and it does indeed seem odd, but as we've all found out thanks to the HH books, a awful lot was an awful lot different from what we thought we knew.

The Guy
04-09-2007, 17:27
You've made a good point but as I've never read the HH books I can't really comment :( I know basically what happened though :D

Daemonslave
04-09-2007, 17:31
Maybe the Emperor truly is the Omnissiah and actually wanted to live as part of a super complex machine and that the Heresy was his best way of achieving it (while still retaining his base of worship).:p

Rockerfella
04-09-2007, 17:31
Ah wow. You know what? I admire you for having the 'guts' to start this thread. I try to walk on egg shells on this thread when it comes to badmouthing the 'BIG E' as all the fanbuoys like to call him, and i'm classed as having one of the most 'negative' views of the Emperor on this forum. ;)

Boy, have you out done anything i've ever said.

The silly side of me just wants to say 'well, you know what? The Emperor simply got too big for his own boots and walked where he shouldn't have. He played in a league that was clearly beyond him etc etc'.

In all fairness, as i'm sure the Heresy books will show, the emperor probably was the victim of several 'nasty' turns that he couldn't possibly forsee. *coughs* :rolleyes:

Thats the party line, anyway.

For me? Well, I just think it was a combination of events that simply turned the tide and unravelled his great work. A grand shame. Although Eldrad did indeed attempt to warn the Emperor, he did it through the meglomaniac Fulgrim. Who's fault is that, Eldrads or the Emperors? I dunooo. I was shocked to find out that Eldrad was SHOCKED to find out Fulgrim, a frickin Primarch, knew nothing of Chaos. Who's faults that? I'd go with the Emperor.

Its a tough one, but i warn you, prepare to be flamed, trolled, smashed and shot at by all the frothing screaming fanbuoys when they hear of this thread.

I'm heading for my personal defence bunker right now, I suggest you do the same! Farewell!!! :p

:P

Marinox
04-09-2007, 17:35
what would your prodigy/best friend/child have to do before you obliterated his existance with your mind? how many chances would you give your son?

besides, the emperor didn't SEE horus kill anyone except Joe McTerminator. maybe he looked into horus's eyes/soul at that moment and saw nothing but evil.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
04-09-2007, 17:35
I've got another good one: on a scale of 1 to 10, how biased against the Emperor/Space Marines/the Imperium fluff are you, 1 being biased and 10 being incredibly biased?

Since the Emperor was the one who decided that religion was bad, I'm assuming he didn't really know/believe in the Chaos gods. And of course he didn't trust the Eldar, blinded as he was by his fanatical "everything that isn't human has to go" attitude. He didn't treat the Primarchs like crap, he treated them like sons at best, and at worst, soldiers.

But it's cool how you break everything down to the lowest possible level and then rant about crappy the writing is. Be sure to let us all know when YOU'RE science fiction game, with a hundred or so books of background information, a best selling, award winning video game with expansions, and a cult following all over the world, finally goes on sale. We're all waiting to tear into it like a preteen filled with angst and sarcasm.

Shadow_Wing
04-09-2007, 17:43
I've got another good one: on a scale of 1 to 10, how biased against the Emperor/Space Marines/the Imperium fluff are you, 1 being biased and 10 being incredibly biased?

Since the Emperor was the one who decided that religion was bad, I'm assuming he didn't really know/believe in the Chaos gods.

I always assumed he knew about the chaos gods. After all, teaching humanity to believe demons and gods aren't real is the best thing to do. Belief was the only real weapon they had against Chaos at the time.

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 17:49
I've got another good one: on a scale of 1 to 10, how biased against the Emperor/Space Marines/the Imperium fluff are you, 1 being biased and 10 being incredibly biased?

Since the Emperor was the one who decided that religion was bad, I'm assuming he didn't really know/believe in the Chaos gods. And of course he didn't trust the Eldar, blinded as he was by his fanatical "everything that isn't human has to go" attitude. He didn't treat the Primarchs like crap, he treated them like sons at best, and at worst, soldiers.

Well, how much the Emperor knew about the warp and the entities there is open to a lot of debate. We do however know he knew enough about the Eldar warp portals to build his throne on top of one, we know he and his Custodes engaged in near constant battle with Daemons after they opened the portal and found it to be fractured and filled with warp-spawned monstrosities.

The Alien = Bad attitude is a bit of an issue in the first HH book we are led to believe that the reason the Imperium has fought all the alien races it has come across is, they have without exception been hostile, I think it was Horus who seemed bemused by the notion of a "friendly" alien race. This "indifferent until" attitude is however not present in "Fulgrim", where the EC and IH kill aliens on sight, and indeed go after ones who admittedly just want to be left alone.

Which of these attitudes the Emperor instilled in his forces is unclear, but you can bet the Imperium would have exterminated the Jokaero if the Alien = Bad attitude was dominant in the armies.

Oh, and the Emperor didn't decide that religion was bad, that is pretty much self evident even now in our time some 38000 years earlier but that is not a topic for this board really.



But it's cool how you break everything down to the lowest possible level and then rant about crappy the writing is. Be sure to let us all know when YOU'RE science fiction game, with a hundred or so books of background information, a best selling, award winning video game with expansions, and a cult following all over the world, finally goes on sale. We're all waiting to tear into it like a preteen filled with angst and sarcasm.

Possibly a little uncalled for there friend.

Savant
04-09-2007, 17:50
Well, if he was omniscient or precognitive he knew it was all going to happen and maybe couldn't risk changing/wasn't able to change anything.

So he was precognitive, and being killed, left to rot in the golden throne for the rest of eternity, while humanity suffered a slow death at the hands of Chaos was the best option he could see out of all the possible futures? I don't want to know what the alternatives were.

Maybe a future wherein Madonna was resurrected


We currently really have no insight into the Emperor's thinking, and it does indeed seem odd, but as we've all found out thanks to the HH books, a awful lot was an awful lot different from what we thought we knew.

Wasn't there a short story that showed the siege of Terra and the fight between the Emperor and Horus from the Emperor's perspective? I haven't read it in a while, but it seemed to support my Emperor-was-a-cretin theory. Basically he cried a lot about how betrayed he felt, then Horus kicked his head in.


Although Eldrad did indeed attempt to warn the Emperor, he did it through the meglomaniac Fulgrim. Who's fault is that, Eldrads or the Emperors?

Yeah, I'd assumed Eldrad went off and warned the Emperor after realising Fulgrim was tainted, much the same way Magnus did after realising the same about Horus, but it might've been changed. My assumption was based on the fact that it says Eldrad warned the Emperor about Horus, not Fulgrim. Since Fulgrim never told the Emperor what Eldrad had told him... yeah, that's where I was coming from.

Rockerfella
04-09-2007, 17:55
I've got another good one: on a scale of 1 to 10, how biased against the Emperor/Space Marines/the Imperium fluff are you, 1 being biased and 10 being incredibly biased?

Since the Emperor was the one who decided that religion was bad, I'm assuming he didn't really know/believe in the Chaos gods. And of course he didn't trust the Eldar, blinded as he was by his fanatical "everything that isn't human has to go" attitude. He didn't treat the Primarchs like crap, he treated them like sons at best, and at worst, soldiers.

But it's cool how you break everything down to the lowest possible level and then rant about crappy the writing is. Be sure to let us all know when YOU'RE science fiction game, with a hundred or so books of background information, a best selling, award winning video game with expansions, and a cult following all over the world, finally goes on sale. We're all waiting to tear into it like a preteen filled with angst and sarcasm.

Me? A good 6, but i used to be worse. I'm loving the heresy novels. Love them to bits.

Also though, why dont' we say, for the sake of thread balance, on a scale of one to ten, how utterly biased you are in the opposite direction towards the Emperor, mankind, space marines and how wonderful they are? It works both ways.

Unfortunately, we'll never have true fanbuoys appreciating balance in these terms when all they can see is the end of their own noses and possibly the Emperor's ass cheeks.

Anyway, i digress.

The original poster is allowed to say what he wants. Its his opinion, nothing more. Don't get so upset about it. He's only disrespecting a fictional character, you would do well to remember that before you jump down his throat in such an obviously one sided manner.

Look at the ridiculousness of the situation here. I KNOW we're about to get into a colossal debate (as i opredicted in my first post) because people are going to feel genuinely hurt( I mean, c'mon!!) by this guy disrespecting the beloved emperor, peace be upon him.

Take it for what it is, a silly thread thats designed to get a bite from fanbuoys. Although, in all fairness, the same rules apply to everyone. You're allowed to say what you want, just be mindful of how ridiculous it can come across when desperately defending a fictional character.

Cheers. :eyebrows:

Savant
04-09-2007, 17:56
I've got another good one: on a scale of 1 to 10, how biased against the Emperor/Space Marines/the Imperium fluff are you, 1 being biased and 10 being incredibly biased?

10.


Since the Emperor was the one who decided that religion was bad, I'm assuming he didn't really know/believe in the Chaos gods. And of course he didn't trust the Eldar, blinded as he was by his fanatical "everything that isn't human has to go" attitude. He didn't treat the Primarchs like crap, he treated them like sons at best, and at worst, soldiers.

***HH BOOK SPOILERS***




Well... While in a coma Horus is told that the Emperor not only knew about Chaos but bartered with them for power. Then betrayed them. Of course, this was Chaos/Erebus telling him that, so the slim possibility of lies is there, but everything else they told Horus was (technically) true.

Shadow_Wing
04-09-2007, 17:59
On the whole alien is bad issue, I thought the bias against aliens was due to the Pre Golden Age times, when Humanities worlds were being brutally and mercilessly attacked by the Eldar, Orks and all other manner of races. Sure, some, for example the Eldar, were already there, but I am almost certain Humans would've been eager to establish links between the races. Untill the Eldar blew their heads off.

Also, no alien thinks the same as a Human. If we can't relate to them, how can we understand them? How can we trust them?

In the whole "Dark and Grim" 40k universe, I'm sure even the friendly, quiet races are suspected by everyone. And after the Heresy, I'm not surprised the Imperium is immovable in it's attitude towards alliances with aliens. They suspect those within the Imperium enough without there being a friendly alien race in the mix.

nagash66
04-09-2007, 18:00
The Emperor is an idiot!?! How dare you heretical scum tarnish his most holy name!
Burn traitores filth in his name!!!!!

AVE IMPERATOR

Rockerfella
04-09-2007, 18:05
The Emperor is an idiot!?! How dare you heretical scum tarnish his most holy name!
Burn traitores filth in his name!!!!!

AVE IMPERATOR

And so it begins..... ;)

Savant
04-09-2007, 18:06
On the whole alien is bad issue, I thought the bias against aliens was due to the Pre Golden Age times, when Humanities worlds were being brutally and mercilessly attacked by the Eldar, Orks and all other manner of races. Sure, some, for example the Eldar, were already there, but I am almost certain Humans would've been eager to establish links between the races. Untill the Eldar blew their heads off.

Also, no alien thinks the same as a Human. If we can't relate to them, how can we understand them? How can we trust them?

In the whole "Dark and Grim" 40k universe, I'm sure even the friendly, quiet races are suspected by everyone. And after the Heresy, I'm not surprised the Imperium is immovable in it's attitude towards alliances with aliens. They suspect those within the Imperium enough without there being a friendly alien race in the mix.

Well, humanity got on well with some aliens during the age of technology, and secured non-agression pacts with dozens of them (to paraphrase). Then the age of strife came, and alien predation with it. But by this point humanity was incapable of communicating with one-another, so how would they know that aliens weren't to be trusted? The only ones who did know were being gnawed on.

Really, it was more 'some of them can't be trusted, so screw them all'.

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 18:06
So he was precognitive, and being killed, left to rot in the golden throne for the rest of eternity, while humanity suffered a slow death at the hands of Chaos was the best option he could see out of all the possible futures? I don't want to know what the alternatives were.

Maybe a future wherein Madonna was resurrected

Well, maybe one where mankind was wiped out in entirety by the end of that year if the Emperor intervened in any way?

Simply put, without actually knowing we can do nothing more than speculate. Reductio Ad Absurdum as you have done with the Madonna angle helps no-one and just makes you look foolish.




Wasn't there a short story that showed the siege of Terra and the fight between the Emperor and Horus from the Emperor's perspective? I haven't read it in a while, but it seemed to support my Emperor-was-a-cretin theory. Basically he cried a lot about how betrayed he felt, then Horus kicked his head in.

First published in WD and again in both the HH tabletop wargame and in at least one of the GD supplements IIRC (maybe more now). It also has Horus with 2 Lightning claws instead of one, and no doubt a host of other oddities that have since changed that I can't recall without reading it again.




Yeah, I'd assumed Eldrad went off and warned the Emperor after realising Fulgrim was tainted, much the same way Magnus did after realising the same about Horus, but it might've been changed. My assumption was based on the fact that it says Eldrad warned the Emperor about Horus, not Fulgrim. Since Fulgrim never told the Emperor what Eldrad had told him... yeah, that's where I was coming from.


Except we now know it was Horus that sicked Russ on Magnus, for Magnus' attempt to steer Horus away from temptation while he was on Davin. We can assume that communication back to Earth glossed over the whole "dire warning" aspect of Magnus' use of sorcery and focussed on the whole "forbidden practices" side of it.

There is still time for Eldrad to attempt to warn the Emperor in person, there's even a webway portal to Earth if he feels confident enough to use it.

Rockerfella
04-09-2007, 18:18
There is still time for Eldrad to attempt to warn the Emperor in person, there's even a webway portal to Earth if he feels confident enough to use it.

Imagine THAT! Eldrad popping up within the palace, wanting a word with the Emperor.

As i understood it, this is how it originally happened. I just can't see Eldrad (having had problems with Fulgrim) wanting to go anywhere near humanity ever again!

Would be a nice side plot though....

Savant
04-09-2007, 18:20
Well, maybe one where mankind was wiped out in entirety by the end of that year if the Emperor intervened in any way?

Simply put, without actually knowing we can do nothing more than speculate. Reductio Ad Absurdum as you have done with the Madonna angle helps no-one and just makes you look foolish.

Well fair enough, but I'm having serious issues seeing how having a nice long chat with Horus the minute the Emperor heard something was up would've been anymore harmful than obliterating him from existance AFTER he'd gutted the Emperor.


First published in WD and again in both the HH tabletop wargame and in at least one of the GD supplements IIRC (maybe more now). It also has Horus with 2 Lightning claws instead of one, and no doubt a host of other oddities that have since changed that I can't recall without reading it again.

So the two lightning claws were retconned by later fluff. Unfortunately, the Emperor being a ***** wasn't retconned, because nothing has superseded that particular piece of fluff. Just because Horus' warddrobe has since changed doesn't invalidate all old fluff in my eyes.


Except we now know it was Horus that sicked Russ on Magnus, for Magnus' attempt to steer Horus away from temptation while he was on Davin. We can assume that communication back to Earth glossed over the whole "dire warning" aspect of Magnus' use of sorcery and focussed on the whole "forbidden practices" side of it.

There is still time for Eldrad to attempt to warn the Emperor in person, there's even a webway portal to Earth if he feels confident enough to use it.

If Magnus didn't warn the Emperor at any point using psychic powers, then what happened to the webway entrance... thingy behind the Golden Throne that the Emperor was working on? Wasn't Magnus supposed to have destroyed it?

The Guy
04-09-2007, 18:27
As a player of SM,Imperial guard and DH I feel obliged to help protect this fictional character :P Yea personally I do think it was a bit silly to NOT blast Horus on sight but come on he loved him like a son. And the compassionate, heroic emperor [ forgive me if that's a bit biased] wouldn't willingly kill his own children unless he had the utmost reason to.

Shadow_Wing
04-09-2007, 18:31
As a player of SM,Imperial guard and DH I feel obliged to help protect this fictional character :P Yea personally I do think it was a bit silly to NOT blast Horus on sight but come on he loved him like a son. And the compassionate, heroic emperor [ forgive me if that's a bit biased] wouldn't willingly kill his own children unless he had the utmost reason to.

Like causing a galactic war? :D

The Guy
04-09-2007, 18:33
No those little things don't matter...but killing one terminator does! :D

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 18:45
Well fair enough, but I'm having serious issues seeing how having a nice long chat with Horus the minute the Emperor heard something was up would've been anymore harmful than obliterating him from existance AFTER he'd gutted the Emperor.

He quite probably should have blasted the impudent little whiny sh&% the instant he entered the bridge, why he didn't is only revealed in one quite old short story. If it weren't for the dread I'm feeling at the succession of HH novels that we'll be inundated with before the meta-story actually reaches it's conclusion I'd say just wait for the one dealing with the siege of the Emperor's palace. (There are reasons Robert Jordan should have been shot a long time ago, they are book 5, book 6, book 7, book 8...)




So the two lightning claws were retconned by later fluff. Unfortunately, the Emperor being a ***** wasn't retconned, because nothing has superseded that particular piece of fluff. Just because Horus' warddrobe has since changed doesn't invalidate all old fluff in my eyes.

True, but given GW's penchant for ret-conning and how ascending to Daemon-Prince-hood isn't as appealing after reading "Fulgrim" as it was before, I'm expecting significantly more fleshed out reasoning to be forthcoming. If that reasoning actually is the Emperor was a fool, then so be it, I'd like to read why though (and any decent author should have an easy time convincing us of the validity of the choices the Emperor makes on his path down the foolish slope).




If Magnus didn't warn the Emperor at any point using psychic powers, then what happened to the webway entrance... thingy behind the Golden Throne that the Emperor was working on? Wasn't Magnus supposed to have destroyed it?

If the Emperor was truly working on a machine to allow him to ascend to god-hood, then it would make some sense not to close off a warp portal and therefore easy access to a veritable flood of warp-power. And the Emperor is/was reputedly the most powerful psyker humanity had seen, it's no stretch of the imagination to believe anything his sons could do, he could undo.

icegreentea
04-09-2007, 18:52
regardless of how stupid the emperor is, he seems to have some rediculously horrible peoples skills. 38 thousand years, and he can't figure out that he's hurting his kids. ...or conversly, it's because of those 38 thousand years that he can't tell hes hurting his kids. anyhow, the point is that the emperor has some serious problems with parenthood, regardless of his ability to unite humanity.

Savant
04-09-2007, 19:02
If the Emperor was truly working on a machine to allow him to ascend to god-hood, then it would make some sense not to close off a warp portal and therefore easy access to a veritable flood of warp-power. And the Emperor is/was reputedly the most powerful psyker humanity had seen, it's no stretch of the imagination to believe anything his sons could do, he could undo.

If I broke some guy's vase, it doesn't mean he could undo me breaking it if he were stronger than me. Although the Emperor could probably rebuild whatever it was he was working on - he built it in the first place.

Hmm... anyway, it does kinda answer my question. I had been assuming that Eldrad and Magnus would warn the Emperor after their run-ins with Fulgrim/Horus, but this was based on old fluff that said both of them warned the Emperor (not the Primarchs, who then never told him). From what we've seen in the HH books so far, maybe the old stuff is being retconned so that the Emperor was never given any prior warning to the heresy until his patio was being bombed by a traitor fleet. It would explain his 'WTF?' moment when it came to confronting Horus, whom he might've assumed was still loyal until that moment.

It depends on the time frame. On some accounts it seems to suggest that lots of time passed between Istvaan V and the siege of Terra, others seem to suggest Horus quickly nuked the loyalist marines then sped off to Terra to finish the rest.

Damn retconning! And the Emperor was still stupid for betraying the chaos gods. All they wanted was to be friends.

MrBigMr
04-09-2007, 19:26
Yes yes, Emperor was a real idiot. Everyone should listen to the Eldar, the people who managed to crap their own empire. Talk about foresight. Not to forget that the Eldar have kicked humans and raided their colonies for a good while. Imagine some talibans to come and tell the US goverment "Hey, watch out, one of your generals is gonna rebel with his forces and start a civil war."

And the Emperor wasn't some fanatical crazy person. It's like saying Jesus hates Jews, gays, etc. because Christians hated them in His name. All this 'purity above all' is later made crap to control the people. It's easier to say "all non-humans are heretics" than "this furry thing is ok, but that one is not."

The Emperor was about guiding humanity. He was all about sciense and reason. He knew about Chaos (hell, he was created because of it), he disallowed him to be worshiped, etc.

His spirit might have been immortal and all that, but he was a man non the less. Even after all the time he still seemed to suffer from human frailties, that I do give. But just because he trusted Horus and didn't believe some space freaks doesn't make one an idiot. It's easy to judge someone afterwards when one knows all the facts. How many times have you made a bad choice even as people have adviced against it?

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 19:42
OMFG! FIND A NEW TOPIC! THERE ARE MILLION THINGS TO TALK ABOUT IN WARHAMMER 40K BESIDES "Oh I love the Emperor" "Oh I hate the Emperor".

Jesus Christ, I feel like I am going to scream the next time I see this topic.

Ashnari Doomsong
04-09-2007, 19:55
...in nettiquette, you actually did scream, y'know.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 19:57
Good. :) :)

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 20:08
Good. :) :)

Why respond if you dislike the topic so much?
Why even click on it?
Your actions seem to contradict your statements.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 20:12
Welcome to the world of online forums, Ktotwf. It is extremely rare that I see a thread that hasn't already been done before. (I've seen this thread more than a handful of times. One of the rarer topics, for sure, but it repeats with remarkably frequency.) Sure, there are lot of Emperor threads at the moment, but is that surprising given the release of the Horus Heresy novels? Nope, I don't think it is.

If you want to see different threads, Ktotwf, then you must post them and hope they engage the interest of the readers.

For me, though, the Emperor is only as "thick" as the author, since it is the flow of the narrative and the implications or effect that they wish to bring over that dominates at any given time. This is a major hurdle for those wishing to interpret the 40k universe in any form of concrete way (i.e. so that it is just not reading the material and accepting everything that GW happens to spoon out to us, the readers).

In some regards, the focus on the Primarchs as "his sons" seems to be an attempt to explain his reticence in destroying Horus. After all, how many fathers could do that to their children? Incredibly simple, but effective.

Yet how you interpret the Emperor is caught up in this, which is one of the reasons that I posted the "How do you view the Emperor" thread. For example, The Trickster would not have been fooled by Horus, but might have seen a "greater good" to come out of it. On the other hand, The Scientist might have felt that one of his creations could not come to ill, even despite the evidence. The God, on the other hand, might have felt that his "son" would not be capable of such things, or dare not do such things. After all, if his "progeny" were that weak, then his plan was flawed, perhaps even arrogant. How could a god be flawed?

How would I explain the 'problems' with the Emperor 'fluff'? To be honest, I don't think that consistency was uppermost on the authors mind. For me it was the horror writers "plot device" (i.e. how to introduce a character into the plot, or a deep hole in the ground!). In that regard - and in the normal way that GW writes - the stories succeeded. The God and his Traitor Son fighting to the last in their own version of a "War in Heaven." The patriarchal weakness humbling The God to become the Crippled, or perhaps Sundered, God, etc. It works.

Then again, if I were to rework the story the Emperor's conflict with Horus would be more the conflict with Chaos. That it was less the physical battle that dominated the conflict on the barge, but more the Emperor fighting against the Ruinous Powers hold over his creation. That it was this 'interference' that was the only reason that the Emperor was able to hold off from the onslaught of Horus (i.e. I don't have a problem with the consumate skill of the Emperor in combat, just that it would not have mattered that long against the sheer power - the fury - of a Primarch).

Ah well. Who knows...

Rockerfella was somewhat right, though. There are certain topics that evoke obvious responses. Threads on the Marines, Primarchs and Emperor are these type of threads...

Kage

Astner
04-09-2007, 20:20
I think the Emperor was supose to be a bit like Jesus in a way, he knew that one of his disciples would betray him, but he didn't do anything to prevent it.
- But of course Jesus wouldn't want to stay alive if it cost him a thousand highly potential men each day.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 20:20
Welcome to the world of online forums, Ktotwf. It is extremely rare that I see a thread that hasn't already been done before. (I've seen this thread more than a handful of times. One of the rarer topics, for sure, but it repeats with remarkably frequency.) Sure, there are lot of Emperor threads at the moment, but is that surprising given the release of the Horus Heresy novels? Nope, I don't think it is.

Kage

Its one thing for a topic to reappear once or twice a month - its another for the same topic to be posted 7-8 times in a week and a half.

Cartographer
04-09-2007, 20:22
Its one thing for a topic to reappear once or twice a month - its another for the same topic to be posted 7-8 times in a week and a half.

Maybe that is an indication of something else influencing the community, if a topic is on a lot of peoples' minds it'll come up often.

Kage2020
04-09-2007, 21:05
Its one thing for a topic to reappear once or twice a month - its another for the same topic to be posted 7-8 times in a week and a half.
They have all been different topics, though. Just the same rough 'focus' on the Emperor. Personally, if I don't want to reply to a topic I don't. One of the reasons that I'm only active in a handful of threads rather than when I originally showed up and I was active in every single thread. Erm, actually that was on Portent. I was jaded by the time I got to Warseer.

Kage

Chilltouch
04-09-2007, 21:08
All in all, it was just bad writing. Seriously, this is what you get when you overexpand on the Horus Heresy. This crap happens. If the Horus Heresy only had mild detail on the events and such then it would be a whole lot better.

Ktotwf
04-09-2007, 21:10
Instead of looking at the Horus Heresy as a "narrative retelling of established Horus Heresy story", we should all look at it as a reconciliation of all the previous material into a new synthesis, streamlining the whole story and making it make more sense as a whole.

VanHel
05-09-2007, 02:53
Well in my opinion the Emperor could do nothing. If he was omnipotent, that would mean he would see past present and future, so the heresy and everything would have already happened to his perspective.

DantesInferno
05-09-2007, 06:34
I knew before I opened this thread that Ktotwf would have an aneurysm in it :p

In any case, my views on the matter can be found in <this thread> (http://www.warseer.com/forums/40k-background/967-how-was-the-emperor-a-great-leader.html). The Emperor's dealings with the Primarchs are the main instances where we see his leadership in action, so lead to the clearest debate over his apparent leadership skills.

Cartographer
05-09-2007, 12:29
Well in my opinion the Emperor could do nothing. If he was omnipotent, that would mean he would see past present and future, so the heresy and everything would have already happened to his perspective.

Actually, he couldn't be omnipotent and see the past present and future, (or omniscience) the states are mutually exclusive as if you know exactly what is going to happen (including how you are going to react to those events) you can't change your mind, therefore cannot be omnipotent. It's a long standing joke at the expence of theologians and that their "god" no matter what religion, cannot be both all knowing and all powerful.

Kage2020
05-09-2007, 12:49
That and the 'fluff' is - or at least was - fairly clear that the Emperor could not see beyond a certain point in time (GW later gave this a name - a "Shadow Point"). So there goes the omniscience. ;)

And the omnipotence is also out, most especially given the way that the Great Crusade progressed. ;)

Kage

MrBigMr
05-09-2007, 14:02
It's a long standing joke at the expence of theologians and that their "god" no matter what religion, cannot be both all knowing and all powerful.
What if they know all the results of all their decisions? Like seeing all the possible decisions that one can make and knowing what will happen because of them, and then choosing the path one wants.

Iracundus
05-09-2007, 14:06
Doesn't work. To know everything that WILL happen, one has to also know what oneself WILL choose, thereby removing one's own free will to choose. Being constrained in choice, one cannot therefore be also simultaneously omnipotent.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 14:16
That dosen't really work for me. If an entity is presented with, or can see all possibilities and its own actions and choices there of, why can't it simply choose the one it prefers, knowing that outcome is more beneficial than the others?

MrBigMr
05-09-2007, 14:50
Doesn't work. To know everything that WILL happen, one has to also know what oneself WILL choose, thereby removing one's own free will to choose. Being constrained in choice, one cannot therefore be also simultaneously omnipotent.
What I mean is, like Rockafella there said, that instead of a linerial timeline one sees all the forks, even the one he himself makes. So if I ponder whether I choose to eat pasta or soup, I would see all the events of both choices and choose the one I prefer. So lets say I see "hey, I don't have tomatos and won't get to the store in time no matter what I do, so soup it is."

Being all knowing doesn't mean one has to know everything all the time, but one can if one wants. Like I don't have to listen to someone all the time, even if I am able to hear him. Or something like that. But I don't think God is somehow all knowing. If He was, He propably would have done a better job with us. Unless everything is going according to plan...

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 15:00
If He was, He propably would have done a better job with us. Unless everything is going according to plan...

Good god.... that is a scary thought. :eyebrows: ;)

Cartographer
05-09-2007, 16:53
Knowing the results of all decisions but not knowing which one you will pick is not omniscience, that is the crucial point. If you truly knew everything, then it doesn't matter how many different options there were or their consequences, you know which one you are going to pick, thus preventing you from being able to change your mind about it.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
05-09-2007, 17:08
Savant, i like you

VanHel
05-09-2007, 17:44
What I mean is, like Rockafella there said, that instead of a linerial timeline one sees all the forks, even the one he himself makes. So if I ponder whether I choose to eat pasta or soup, I would see all the events of both choices and choose the one I prefer. So lets say I see "hey, I don't have tomatos and won't get to the store in time no matter what I do, so soup it is."

Being all knowing doesn't mean one has to know everything all the time, but one can if one wants. Like I don't have to listen to someone all the time, even if I am able to hear him. Or something like that. But I don't think God is somehow all knowing. If He was, He propably would have done a better job with us. Unless everything is going according to plan...

Or he could simply be uncaring..

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that I think the Emperors conciousness and way he percieves things is so vastly different then ours. I see him percieving things like Dr. Manhattan from Watchman.

MrBigMr
05-09-2007, 17:55
Knowing the results of all decisions but not knowing which one you will pick is not omniscience, that is the crucial point. If you truly knew everything, then it doesn't matter how many different options there were or their consequences, you know which one you are going to pick, thus preventing you from being able to change your mind about it.
But that would mean time is linear, everything happening on a clear path no matter what. One knows what happens and cannot affect it. In a nonlinear time one would be able to affect the timeline with the knowledge he has. How else could there be a nonlinear time if everything happens in one way?

One could assume the observer (God) to be an "outsider" in the equation. God is not part of the observation, in the same way the reader is not part of the book he reads. God looks at the situation from outside of the box and all his knowledge is only directed inside the box.

This brings me to a theory on God and existence:
In Thomistic thought, which holds God to exist outside of time due to his ability to perceive everything at once, everything which God knows in his mind already exists. Hence, God would know of nothing that was not in existence (or else it would exist), and God would also know everything that was in existence (or else it would not exist), and God would possess this knowledge of what did exist and what did not exist at any point in the history of time. In short, God's mind would be the equivalent of an inalterable textbook which would contain all knowledge of everything in history within it, albeit an infinite one.

And lets not forget there are different variants of omniscience, such as:
Inherent omniscience the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
Total omniscience actually knowing everything that can be known.

Savant
05-09-2007, 20:28
Interesting though this is, it's really a moot point, since the Emperor was neither omniscient nor omnipotent, nevermind both.

The problem with the omniscient argument is that, GW could turn around and release some fluff of the Emperor saying "Man, I sure didn't see this happening! Was I ever hoodwinked!" and you can claim that the Emperor did know it was going to happen (despite the fluff directly contradicting you), but was only saying that he didn't because he'd seen the future and knew that in order to bring about a possible future wherein good stuff happened he had to act as though he didn't know what was going to happen (ow, my head).

I think it's safe to take the fluff at relative face-value and assume the Emperor couldn't see the future in it's entirety. Just because, theoretically, he could see the future but let events unfold as they were (acting shocked and surprised the entire time) because that was the best course of events is straining things a tad IMO.

As for omnipotent? How exactly can you claim the Emperor could do *anything*, when he patently couldn't? What would be the point of the Great Crusade, exactly? He could've just conquered the galaxy with a thought, while simultaneously destroying chaos and all xenos filth if he were omnipotent.

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 23:22
Or he could simply be uncaring..

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that I think the Emperors conciousness and way he percieves things is so vastly different then ours. I see him percieving things like Dr. Manhattan from Watchman.

Ahh, the old 'they/him percieve things totally different to us approach, therefore we can't possibly question or understand his motives' etc. I think I once said something like that when trying to justify the totally 'un alien' Eldar, whilst trying to still uphold their fluffed and alledged 'alieness'. :eyebrows:;):rolleyes:

At the end of the day, the Emperor was Human, just like me and you. I'm sure he did percieve things differently, as I percieve things differnetly to the nxt man. However, i'm pretty sure his thought processes were still somewhat grounded in the mess of his own human DNA. To some degree.

Twisted Ferret
05-09-2007, 23:52
But that would mean time is linear, everything happening on a clear path no matter what. One knows what happens and cannot affect it. In a nonlinear time one would be able to affect the timeline with the knowledge he has. How else could there be a nonlinear time if everything happens in one way?
Knowing the future at all means time is on a linear path. If you see both the possible branches, and the one you take, how can you possibly choose to take a different path?

I admit, that doesn't seem right to me. It's counter-intuitive. Surely you can make a choice, and just know which choice you will make? But I don't see how it can actually be possible.


One could assume the observer (God) to be an "outsider" in the equation. God is not part of the observation, in the same way the reader is not part of the book he reads. God looks at the situation from outside of the box and all his knowledge is only directed inside the box.
...
[In short, God's mind would be the equivalent of an inalterable textbook which would contain all knowledge of everything in history within it, albeit an infinite one.
Interesting theory... but for this debate, terrible metaphors, unfortunately. Note that books have everything set out within them, no choices or possibility of a different ending no matter how many times you read them. The theory you quote admits as much: "inalterable textbooks."

Johnator
06-09-2007, 14:43
Is the Emperor

Uncaring? Possibly considering treatment of his sons

Overhyped? Yeah he is considering they made him a god when he didn't want that.

Overcompassionate towards Horus? Possibly since he lets him get away with so much

STUPID? Um NO. This guy basically created a whole new and successful way for a galactic empire. He conquered hundreds of planets, created a new branch of the military, and then basically invented a way to travel the warp. There is no way he is stupid. Did he make some bad decisions? Sure he did but even a genius can make mistakes. Every person that is on here at one time or another has made a bad choice but does that mean we are all fools? Hardly.

MrBigMr
06-09-2007, 14:52
Knowing the future at all means time is on a linear path. If you see both the possible branches, and the one you take, how can you possibly choose to take a different path?
But if I toss a coin and then travel back in time before I toss it, and kick myself in the nuts, time has already altered as I knew what was going to happen (as I was the one to toss the coin), but I was able to alter the timeline. Thus time would not be linear.


I admit, that doesn't seem right to me. It's counter-intuitive. Surely you can make a choice, and just know which choice you will make? But I don't see how it can actually be possible.
I do believe that there would be alternative choices from which to choose, since if one has foresight on things he cannot change, the ability would have no effect at all. It other words, seeing something happen would actually make it happen. If I see myself get shot, I would do everything to avoid people and guns, in the end putting myself in a situation where I would get shot.

Or something like that. The idea that one with foresight cannot do anything but foresee the future, then it does give a rather sad view of the world. There is no free choice for anyone, as things would always go as they are going to no matter what.


Interesting theory... but for this debate, terrible metaphors, unfortunately. Note that books have everything set out within them, no choices or possibility of a different ending no matter how many times you read them. The theory you quote admits as much: "inalterable textbooks."
I was going to make an alternative point, using RPG-games or adventure games. Something where there's a script to follow, but the player is the one who does all the choices. Imagine you've played the game through every single way possible. You know everything. Thus you know what will happend when you this or that, but you can choose which options to select.

In such the one knowing what will happen, is seeing everything except himself. The player doesn't know what he will select when the time comes, but he knows what will happend due to those choices. He is a 3rd party to the observation, but the primary catalyst to events.

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 16:10
Surely the farseers are a perfect example here. they see many futures don't they? They simply 'pick' the one that they prefer, by altering the present slightly. OR, they manipulate the present to best avoid the outcome which they least prefer.

Same thing, isn't it?

Baaltharus
06-09-2007, 17:45
On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being stupid and 10 being incredibly stupid?

Basically, while all of the Emperor's sycophants within the 40k canon whinge on about how fantastic and holy he is, etc, everything he ever actually did seems to contradict this. What exactly was his thought process, having conquered Earth after the age of strife, anyway?

I'm the Emperor, immortal and nigh-indestructable! What should I do next? Oh, I know! I'll go betray and **** off the only beings in existance who could conceivably harm me, the warp gods, in order to create another race of beings who could kill me, the Primarchs, who I will then treat like crap. PURE GENIUS!

Uh huh. And in an attempt to outdo his own collosal stupidity, what does he do during the HH?

Elrad - Hey, I've come to warn you that Horus will betray you.
Emperor - Nuh uh, I don't believe you! Go away Eldar! Your race is gay lol.
Magnus - No, seriously, he will.
Emperor - I don't believe you either, wussy little sorceress.
Numerous Space Marines and Primarchs - Horus just killed 4 Space Marine legions and turned half the Imperium against you! Billions are being killed in civil war!
Emperor - Surprisingly, I still choose to believe Horus isn't evil.
Horus - Haha, I'm evil! Look, I killed Sanguinus and everything.
Emperor - Nope, not buying it.
Horus - Uh... huh... Look, let me prove it. *guts the Emperor*
Emperor - Ack... Nope... still must be some *cough* good in you. Hey, can I have my spleen back?
*Horus kills single terminator, keeping in mind he JUST KILLED A PRIMARCH AND THE EMPEROR SAW IT*
Emperor - HOLY FUDGE, HE'S BEYOND REDEMPTION!!!
Horus - Blarg, i r dead

I'm having a seriously hard time seeing the Emperor as anything buy a complete and total *****. Is there nothing in the fluff that redeems him? Anything that justifies all that? Or is it just plain bad writing?


What you describe is the oldest version of the background and not as it exists at the moment (presumably because of the weakness of the original story). In the story as it exists at the moment the Emperor doesn't hold back from attempting to destroying Horus. Theres a good bit on the revision of the background in the 'Was the Emperor Holding back?' thread.

grickherder
06-09-2007, 17:51
Under the original story, the Emperor is quite dumb. I suspect fetal alcohol syndrome. It's the only plausible explanation.

MrBigMr
06-09-2007, 18:59
Under the original story, the Emperor is quite dumb. I suspect fetal alcohol syndrome. It's the only plausible explanation.
Right, sure, the Emperor is dumb. Not GW, the ones who made Him up.

7thOffensive
06-09-2007, 19:06
The emperor did not plan his own fall.

Everything in the books and fluff tells us that his ideals for the crusade are the very opposite of its results.

Ie: making him a religious "god" who has to eat psykers instead of train them to better humanity.

Something needs to explain his stupidity.

Daemonslave
06-09-2007, 19:15
What you describe is the oldest version of the background and not as it exists at the moment (presumably because of the weakness of the original story). In the story as it exists at the moment the Emperor doesn't hold back from attempting to destroying Horus. Theres a good bit on the revision of the background in the 'Was the Emperor Holding back?' thread.

Not at all. The most recent HH version of that event (the Visions artbooks) uses exactly the same story, but just replaces the Imp. Fist terminator with a Custodian.

It is worth mentioning, though, that there is no living witnesses (apart from the Emperor who can't talk) to the event in question, therefore its accuracy is suspect to begin with.

Twisted Ferret
06-09-2007, 19:32
But if I toss a coin and then travel back in time before I toss it, and kick myself in the nuts, time has already altered as I knew what was going to happen (as I was the one to toss the coin), but I was able to alter the timeline. Thus time would not be linear.
That's the problem, though - you would never have tossed the coin in the first place. It's a paradox, unless you say that you're actually creating another future - one in which you don't toss a coin, because you got kicked in the nuts.


I do believe that there would be alternative choices from which to choose, since if one has foresight on things he cannot change, the ability would have no effect at all. It other words, seeing something happen would actually make it happen. If I see myself get shot, I would do everything to avoid people and guns, in the end putting myself in a situation where I would get shot.

Or something like that. The idea that one with foresight cannot do anything but foresee the future, then it does give a rather sad view of the world. There is no free choice for anyone, as things would always go as they are going to no matter what.
Kinda like Cassandra. Able to see what happens, unable to change it. Makes for a good tragic figure (Kurze?).


I was going to make an alternative point, using RPG-games or adventure games. Something where there's a script to follow, but the player is the one who does all the choices. Imagine you've played the game through every single way possible. You know everything. Thus you know what will happend when you this or that, but you can choose which options to select.

In such the one knowing what will happen, is seeing everything except himself. The player doesn't know what he will select when the time comes, but he knows what will happend due to those choices. He is a 3rd party to the observation, but the primary catalyst to events.
This I can agree to. You're seeing possible futures, but not which one you actually take.

Gen.Steiner
06-09-2007, 19:39
just be mindful of how ridiculous it can come across when desperately defending a fictional character.

The Immortal and Most Benevolent God-Emperor of Humanity, thanks be to His Divinity, needs no defending from mere mortals such as myself.

I will, however, in accordance with the teachings of Saint Pius and the Thirty-Second Conclave of Eristaes IV, have you hunted down, purged, and cleansed. Remember, sinners, if it doesn't hurt - it doesn't count! :)

Chilltouch
06-09-2007, 21:10
As I said in another topic...

Horus: "lol, im in ur imperium turning ur legionz"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "lol, im in my cruiser killing ur son"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "lol, im in ur palace maiming ur body"
Emperor: "no u"
Horus: "bugger it, i give in... i'll kill this random terminator for fun."
Emperor: "PWNT"
Horus: "oh nooez!"

Baaltharus
06-09-2007, 23:13
Not at all. The most recent HH version of that event (the Visions artbooks) uses exactly the same story, but just replaces the Imp. Fist terminator with a Custodian.

It is worth mentioning, though, that there is no living witnesses (apart from the Emperor who can't talk) to the event in question, therefore its accuracy is suspect to begin with.

I have to disagree with your first statement, if we look at the MOST recent story of the Emperors final battle with Horus from nothing less than Codex Chaos it says nothing of the Emperor holding back. We can also see that in all the rulebooks up until present their is no mention of the Emperor holding back or acting particularly stupid. Surely if this was part of the main plot lines to the 40k universe it would have been included in at least some other version of the HH story under than the rushed copy and paste job which was delivered in the HH artwork books.

There is also no mention of the Custodian/Imperial Fist Terminator and on a personal note I hope this is how its turned out in the HH books due to the reasons given at the start of this thread that whole version of the story is just damn stupid.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 23:37
...Yeah... but... We're still left with an optimistic approach whereby the Emperor doesn't really believe it all. Thus you're back to the original thread.

Kage

Baaltharus
07-09-2007, 00:05
Whats there not to believe though? In the newest versions of the background the Emperor never receives any word from the Eldar due to the complications with Fulgrim. Not only this but the loyalist legions (well suspected to be anyway) are sent against the traitor legions when word comes from Istvaan III (I presume with his knowledge).

The Emperor doesn't hold back when fighting Horus aboard his battle barge and theres no need for some random nobody to get killed to get the Emperor going...

I don't really see how this shows the Emperor not believing in Horus's corruption.

None the less I suppose for good or ill it'll be up to the HH novels to dictate how things 'officially' happened...

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 00:06
At this point I must interject with:

Remember His Unflinching Faith! :D

Twisted Ferret
07-09-2007, 00:30
RHUF! :chrome:

Geetarman
07-09-2007, 14:14
Emperor - HOLY FUDGE, HE'S BEYOND REDEMPTION!!!
Horus - Blarg, i r dead

sorry I haven't read any of this yet, I just had to say that these two lines made me laugh out loud, not sure why but just struck me as hilarious right then and there! :D

Gman

stormblade
07-09-2007, 14:34
I do not believe the Big E to be omniscient nor omnipotent- in WH 40K nobody is omniscient or omnipotent but if we were to hypothetically discuss this I'd say that being omniscient and omnipotent at the same time is possible because omniscience would be the result of omnipotence- I have decided to do this at first and it will be done so because there is nothing that can thwart me or foil my plan because I'm omnipotent.

Lord Dante
07-09-2007, 14:41
Look at this way, pretty soon, due to the HH books we will have a pretty detailed run down of what happens.

Personally, I dont think its stupidity on the EMps behalf, I belive it was shock, perhaps as the Emp comes face to face with Horus loads of future visions become true, paradoxs write themselves, who knows what gos through his mind. And at the core of it all, the Emp has lost his son, to somthing so evil and twisted, maybe even the Emp is in shock at the full power of chaos brought to face him.

There are so many ifs buts ands what-nots u can go on for ever, untill we get some offical cannon, whos to say.

Lord Malorne
07-09-2007, 14:44
this thread is a bit of a whinge which just revives the whole magnus/eldrad warning thread thing.

No the emperor is not stupid...chaos is.

Richter Kless
07-09-2007, 15:44
By Rockerfella's standards I am probably a pro Imperial fanboy. This is a warning for all the Emperor haters out there so that they can skip to the next post.

In my opinion, the Emperor was a briliant man. Being so incredibly old, experienced and filled with all the knowledge of humanity. He was a magnificent psyker who would beat Eldrad any day, any time.
However, the poor man has fallen victim to extremely poor writing. Every time GW writes something about him, they take away some of his greatness.
The decisions the Emperor made in the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy were downright retarded. Destroying Angrons slave army, giving Horus absolute control over EVERTHING, reducing the Iron Warriors to planet care takers, after all the crap that happened, still refusing to believe Horus is evil. Every 5 year old would have handled these situations in a more delicate way.

GW should simply stop writing about him and keep him for the godfigure he is supposed to be. The next thing you know we get a full description of his youth and personal life.

DantesInferno
07-09-2007, 16:03
In my opinion, the Emperor was a briliant man. Being so incredibly old, experienced and filled with all the knowledge of humanity. He was a magnificent psyker who would beat Eldrad any day, any time.
However, the poor man has fallen victim to extremely poor writing. Every time GW writes something about him, they take away some of his greatness.
The decisions the Emperor made in the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy were downright retarded. Destroying Angrons slave army, giving Horus absolute control over EVERTHING, reducing the Iron Warriors to planet care takers, after all the crap that happened, still refusing to believe Horus is evil. Every 5 year old would have handled these situations in a more delicate way.

GW should simply stop writing about him and keep him for the godfigure he is supposed to be. The next thing you know we get a full description of his youth and personal life.

I'm not really sure I get the logic here. The Emperor was a brilliant man, even though GW sources regularly depict him making somewhat questionable decisions.

There's no independent character of the Emperor existing outside the GW background, you know.....It's somewhat odd to say that GW aren't depicting their own character in the way he is "supposed to be". Sorry to break this to you, but GW's depiction of him is all of him that exists.

Rockerfella
15-09-2007, 14:28
The Immortal and Most Benevolent God-Emperor of Humanity, thanks be to His Divinity, needs no defending from mere mortals such as myself.

I will, however, in accordance with the teachings of Saint Pius and the Thirty-Second Conclave of Eristaes IV, have you hunted down, purged, and cleansed. Remember, sinners, if it doesn't hurt - it doesn't count! :)

;) I wish you all the luck in this little 'crusade' of yours. I need all the cleansing i can after the 19 hour day i've just had. So maybe its not a bad thing... *ponders*


@ Richter Kless: You talk like the Emperor wasn't really like the way they created him in the firstplace. He's simply the way he is. He's depicted and judged by his actions, not by 'poor writing' as such. JUst because the writing has the emperor making crappy decisions, that dosen't mean that because he was 'great' those decisions were never really made and he was some victim of poor GW writing.


Also, i'm not (any more) an imperium hater or an Emperor basher. Sure, he was a 'powerful' psyker, and i'm sure he could 'beat' (as you put it) Eldrad at many things, in terms of raw power. I think there's a difference here though between skilled use of available psychic power and just blasting away. Here, to me at least, Eldrad may have had the edge. I know this all boils down to 'I want my ardest psyker to be 'arder than your 'ardest psyker', but in all fairness I think we have to draw a line and say 'Eldrad forsaw the Heresy, and the Emperor didn't', therfore, at that level, Eldrad had the emperor 'beat', to use your own terminology. :)

Cheers!

Witchfire
15-09-2007, 14:37
have you built an imperium of a million worlds, destroyed ork empires single handedly and cleansed entire worlds of noisesome hrud (whatever those are?), had half your many sons betray you, and been born the most mighty psyker of all time? no? then you cant call the emperor stupid, stupid

Rockerfella
15-09-2007, 15:09
have you built an imperium of a million worlds, destroyed ork empires single handedly and cleansed entire worlds of noisesome hrud (whatever those are?), had half your many sons betray you, and been born the most mighty psyker of all time? no? then you cant call the emperor stupid, stupid

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I just want to know before i Power up thats all. ;)

For what its worth, i don't think the Emperor was stupid. I just think, as i've said at least 75 times (at the last count) that he was possibly a little over confident, and possibly didn't ever, in a million years, expect Horus to do what he did. Seemingly him being 'the most mighty psyker born of all time' had nothing at all to do with him being unable to see the betrayal on his own doorstep.

Other notable psykers of the time DID however see it, and tried to let the Emperor know. Maybe they were just better at certain aspects of being a 'psyker' than the emperor was. I guess it may be akin to Boxers. Some boxers have more power, but a weaker Jab compared to others. Whilst some have a thunderous left hook, a knockout punch if you will, whilst others achieve the same result with blistering handspeed and an accumulation of well times shots.

I'm babbling...

CHeers!

stormblade
15-09-2007, 17:18
@ Richter Kless: You talk like the Emperor wasn't really like the way they created him in the firstplace. He's simply the way he is. He's depicted and judged by his actions, not by 'poor writing' as such. JUst because the writing has the emperor making crappy decisions, that dosen't mean that because he was 'great' those decisions were never really made and he was some victim of poor GW writing.



Well, one might say a very similar thing about Goto's Eldar books.

P.S. - I wrote this just to be obnoxious by the way:skull:

jb85
15-09-2007, 19:59
In Bill King's story the Emperor notes that he never doubted Horus even when he began to gather forces and that the thing that should have alerted him was the failure of his precognition. At any rate I doubt the ability was fool-proof it probably only provided glimpses into the future, possible timelines etc

As for the death of the Terminator, I always thought it was the nature of the death that proved the tipping point. The story has the IF been flayed alive and turned to dust with a look from Horus, not shot or stabbed or any other normal death. The Emperor witnesses this first hand and realises there is no chance of redemption, no reason and no excuses for Horus, he was lost.

Witchfire
15-09-2007, 20:16
I hope that wasn't directed at me. I just want to know before i Power up thats all. ;)

For what its worth, i don't think the Emperor was stupid. I just think, as i've said at least 75 times (at the last count) that he was possibly a little over confident, and possibly didn't ever, in a million years, expect Horus to do what he did. Seemingly him being 'the most mighty psyker born of all time' had nothing at all to do with him being unable to see the betrayal on his own doorstep.

Other notable psykers of the time DID however see it, and tried to let the Emperor know. Maybe they were just better at certain aspects of being a 'psyker' than the emperor was. I guess it may be akin to Boxers. Some boxers have more power, but a weaker Jab compared to others. Whilst some have a thunderous left hook, a knockout punch if you will, whilst others achieve the same result with blistering handspeed and an accumulation of well times shots.

I'm babbling...

CHeers!

i reckon the emperor didnt believe horus's turning possible, if your the strongest psyker ever, with a tasty soul just ready to be snapped up by chaos, you take anything you see in the warp with a pinch of salt.

and who expects to be killed by their own beloved son? its happened hundreds of times in history

Rockerfella
16-09-2007, 08:33
Well, one might say a very similar thing about Goto's Eldar books.

P.S. - I wrote this just to be obnoxious by the way:skull:

Its just a case of dealing with it i'm afraid. Some fluff has the Eldar painted in a very different light to CS Goto's tripe.

I see it like this: The Eldar will never be shown to be anything other than 'less than' marines as long as the 40k universe is Imperium-centric. Thats never going to change. So, i deal with it. ;)

Obnoxious is fine with me. :p


i reckon the emperor didnt believe horus's turning possible, if your the strongest psyker ever, with a tasty soul just ready to be snapped up by chaos, you take anything you see in the warp with a pinch of salt.

and who expects to be killed by their own beloved son? its happened hundreds of times in history

But, you're assuming that he even forsaw anything at all. I prefer to think that he didn't. It makes more sense that way. Even if he did forsee the Heresy and decided to 'take it with a pinch of salt', then he screwed pooch didn't he? He got that wrong. As I said earlier, other notable Psykers forsaw the heresy and didn't take it with a pinch of salt, and in doing so, proved themselves to be right. Either way we look at it, its not good for the Emperor.

Anyways, i'm sure all will be revealed in the heresy books! Can't wait!!! :P

Dragonlv8
16-09-2007, 08:37
Its official, the emporer is a dumb ass, in 38000 years I expect to be attacked by the imperial guard...

Lord Halbashnet
16-09-2007, 18:48
I hate the emperor, always have, it's why I play chaos instead of regular, and I have to admit, the Emperor is dumb and always will be. He attempts to redempt a man who kills people then dies. Dumb.

MrBigMr
16-09-2007, 19:14
I hate the emperor, always have, it's why I play chaos instead of regular, and I have to admit, the Emperor is dumb and always will be. He attempts to redempt a man who kills people then dies. Dumb.
Luke tried to redeem Vader. And Jesus asked his father to forgive the people who killed him. It's called compassion for your fellow man. Besides, if you realy wanted to hate the Emperor, you would have chosen some alien race or something like that. Now you're just playing with the Emperor's naughty little kiddies.

stormblade
16-09-2007, 19:19
I hate the emperor, always have, it's why I play chaos instead of regular, and I have to admit, the Emperor is dumb and always will be. He attempts to redempt a man who kills people then dies. Dumb.

Traitor Legions try to crate a new world order but they get their asses handed to them and then grow tentacles- truly they are the genius ones.

Witchfire
16-09-2007, 21:18
Luke tried to redeem Vader. And Jesus asked his father to forgive the people who killed him. It's called compassion for your fellow man. Besides, if you realy wanted to hate the Emperor, you would have chosen some alien race or something like that. Now you're just playing with the Emperor's naughty little kiddies.

lol :cheese:

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
16-09-2007, 22:26
How many of you ahve ever thought of the Emperor as a god, almost a sacrificial thing, who knows why he let himself get killed, was it stupidity? Or was it infact, an act of salvation, ie, only in the Emperor's own death will humanity truly be saved?

DantesInferno
17-09-2007, 01:37
How many of you ahve ever thought of the Emperor as a god, almost a sacrificial thing, who knows why he let himself get killed, was it stupidity? Or was it infact, an act of salvation, ie, only in the Emperor's own death will humanity truly be saved?

Well.......it hasn't been going particularly well for the last 10 000 years since the Emperor was incapacitated. Humanity tends to be repressed under a brutal, fanatical regime which rules in the Emperor's name. If this was part of the Emperor's plan, it doesn't seem to be a very nice plan.

Ktotwf
17-09-2007, 01:39
Well.......it hasn't been going particularly well for the last 10 000 years since the Emperor was incapacitated. Humanity tends to be repressed under a brutal, fanatical regime which rules in the Emperor's name. If this was part of the Emperor's plan, it doesn't seem to be a very nice plan.

The Emperor's plan was never liberal democracy...the Emperor's plan was survival of the human race, with himself as the commander and wise leader.

sabre4190
17-09-2007, 01:52
I will be damned if someone insults MY emperor and gets away with it.

So lets take a look at this Eldrad example you bring up. First, he warned fulgrim, not the emperor. and even if that wern true, would the emperor really beleive some punk alien telling him that his chosen son was going to start a galactic civil war? no.

Then Magnus. The emperor told the primarch no sorcery. and guess what? magnus used sorcery to tell the emperor that previously mentioned chosen son was evil. Especially when that info came from sorcery.

After that, the Emperor did prepare the defenses and get ready for the defense. Then there is the whole "he knew it was going to happen" arguement. If that were true, he would in fact be stupid.

DantesInferno
17-09-2007, 01:58
The Emperor's plan was never liberal democracy...the Emperor's plan was survival of the human race, with himself as the commander and wise leader.

Part of the Emperor's plan was to free humanity from the restraints of superstition and usher in a new era of science and knowledge. It's pretty much the exact opposite to the regime which sprung up in his name after his death.

Suggesting that it was part of the Emperor's plan to get killed by Horus and locked up in the Golden Throne to be worshipped by humanity is somewhat implausible.

Ktotwf
17-09-2007, 02:09
Part of the Emperor's plan was to free humanity from the restraints of superstition and usher in a new era of science and knowledge. It's pretty much the exact opposite to the regime which sprung up in his name after his death.

I take all these ideas that he wanted a humanity "free of superstition" with a handful of salt.

As has already been endlessly discussed, his agressive policy towards religion were simply a "public face" to his underlying strategy of starving Chaos by denying them influence.

The Emperor was certainly no atheist - he knew full well that the Chaos Gods (and maybe the C'Tan) were real beings.


Suggesting that it was part of the Emperor's plan to get killed by Horus and locked up in the Golden Throne to be worshipped by humanity is somewhat implausible.

Never suggested that...his plan was to rule as a fully moving, living breathing Emperor.

DantesInferno
17-09-2007, 02:18
I take all these ideas that he wanted a humanity "free of superstition" with a handful of salt.

As has already been endlessly discussed, his agressive policy towards religion were simply a "public face" to his underlying strategy of starving Chaos by denying them influence.

The Emperor was certainly no atheist - he knew full well that the Chaos Gods (and maybe the C'Tan) were real beings.

Either way, what happened hasn't at all gone according to the Emperor's plans, and that's the only real point I was trying to make. There seems to be a tendency amongst some of the fans who take the background rather literally to assume that the Emperor was so powerful that everything that happened (or will happen?) has gone according to the Emperor's plan. Needless to say, I don't find it very likely.

Ktotwf
17-09-2007, 02:26
Either way, what happened hasn't at all gone according to the Emperor's plans, and that's the only real point I was trying to make. There seems to be a tendency amongst some of the fans who take the background rather literally to assume that the Emperor was so powerful that everything that happened (or will happen?) has gone according to the Emperor's plan. Needless to say, I don't find it very likely.

Well, yeah, of course not. Why would you give up an immortal life in full bloom of youth, as the most powerful living being, in order to be some wrinkled old skeleton?

The Emperor is the classic "suffering God" motif brought to life with a modern sensibility. The Fluff doesn't focus enough on the fact that every instant of the Emperor's "life" is filled with immense agony... "Can any man suffer as the Emperor has suffered?" "As His sacrifice is to live, so is ours to die!"

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 10:14
The Bill King story from the Emperor's POV just prior to and during the duel with Horus mentions quite clearly the Emperor was still in shock over the magnitude of the betrayal and the war. Just because the more fanatical members of the Ecclesiarchy after the Heresy believe the Emperor orchestrated it all, doesn't mean it was the truth.

Johnator
17-09-2007, 14:41
I seriously doubt the Emperor's plan was to end up as a half-corpse tied to a throne with the Imperium doing exactly what he didn't want to happen.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
17-09-2007, 14:56
Well he COULD have acted in a spur-of-the-moment typ o thing, like the time i bought an entire bucket of chickenwings just for me :D

Spider
17-09-2007, 16:50
From what i have read in the fluff over the years and the HH books currently i don't think that that the Emp is an idiot.

I think the Emp's "sin" is pride.

The Legions appeared to have no real knowledge of Chaos and its workings (I haven't read all the HH books yet so i may be incorrect in this), even the Primarchs seemed to be oblivious to the true threat that chaos represented.

Why?

Because the Emperor saw no need to teach them otherwise.

Why?

Because the Primarchs and ultimately the legions were made either by the Emp or from the Emp or both. So if He had resisted for 1000's of years then beings made by/of him should also be able to resist.

The fact that they couldn't and Chaos was able to use his own strength against him and potentially undo everything he had spent 1000's of years working towards...it perhaps isn't suprising that he would truly need some convincing.

Surely the Emp would have percieved Horus and his betrayal as his own failure?

Hopefully that ramble made some sense to someone.:)

Rockerfella
17-09-2007, 17:44
Yup!

Made prefect sense to me. I certainly believe myself that Emperor saw Horus and his betrayal as a failure on his own part, and having read the Heresy books, i'm happy to say he'd be right.

However, to me at least, whichever way you look at this, the Emperor simply didn't see it happening and the heresy radically changed the direction of the imperium. In fact, it sent it crashing in a direction i think the Emperor of the time would have been horrified with.

Its a sad story and having read the books, i much prefer the imperium of the pre heresy days than the imperium we find oursleves lumbered with today. The imperium with the emperor at the helm was dynamic, intersting and goign somewhere.

Cheers.

Witchfire
19-09-2007, 16:40
Well.......it hasn't been going particularly well for the last 10 000 years since the Emperor was incapacitated. Humanity tends to be repressed under a brutal, fanatical regime which rules in the Emperor's name. If this was part of the Emperor's plan, it doesn't seem to be a very nice plan.

the current regime isnt hat the emperor planned, its the regime of the high lords and the church of the emperor keeping him on the machine when he no longer needs it, and ruling in his name.