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ForHire
04-09-2007, 21:18
This question came up in a tournament this weekend and I'd be interested in the answer I get here.

I play Chaos Beasts and run around with Khazrak in a Beast herd so you can just imagine how often this might come up. He seems to leave a wake of dead enemy units wherever he goes...

So, I know what happens when skirmishers charge. In my case, as long as a quarter of my troops are within range I charge in and rank them up to maximize frontage. For this example, let's assumethe unit is 24 strong and they are deployed 12 across and 2 deep, with an inch in between each, for a complete frontage of about 30 inches. After the charge they rank up 6 across with 4 ranks. Combat ensues, Khazrak and his entourage lay waste and they break the unit. He rolls 6 inches and I roll 12. Obviously I run him down and then move forward 12 inches.

Here is the question, and I could not find a single mention of what to do in the rulebook.

Do I move forward in the ranked up formation or do I fan back out to 12 across seperated by an inch.

The reason I ask is in a 6 x 4 formation I narrowly miss carrying through into another unit, in 12 across I carry into another unit and create a new combat.

Which do you think is the proper way of doing it?

theunwantedbeing
04-09-2007, 21:28
The unit just moves forwards,so is a loose group I guess.....
It definitely wont turn into a line,you have to do that in your own movement phase.

ForHire
04-09-2007, 21:39
So, to simplify the question:

If the skirmishers stay ranked up they miss re-charging the next unit.

If they skirmish back up, even if it is just to spread out a tiny bit, they contact and therefore charge, the next unit.

Chicago Slim
04-09-2007, 22:52
For simplicity, unless there's a clear wording in the rules, I'd suggest moving them in the formation they fought in, and then immediately breaking them into a skirmish formation that approximates the formation they fought in (and also keeps them 1" from any enemy in the vicinity of where they ended their pursuit move) at the end of that move.

That allows you a clear line to measure on: put the ruler down at the corner of the unit, and read off the distance. If that doesn't hit anything, then you didn't charge it during your pursuit move. I prefer this, because it's clear to both parties, ahead of time, what's going to happen. Allowing the skirmishing player to adopt an arbitrary formation before the pursuit move gives that player a lot of opportunity to choose whether that pursuit will hit more enemy or not, which makes its result unpredictable for the opponent.

The application of the rules should, where possible, give predictable results...

Yellow Commissar
04-09-2007, 23:35
Hi.

You pursue in the same formation. Here's what I read...

Page 43 BRB "...exactly like fleeing troops".

Page 40 BRB "...for the purposes of moving the fleeing units it is convenient to keep them in formation."

Changing your formation during pursuit in order to engage fresh enemy does not appear to be within the rules.

Take it easy. :)

Festus
05-09-2007, 05:29
Hi

You will break up into skirmish formation with the pursuit (as the only time a Skirmishing unit is in formation is during a close combat). But you still may not move within 1" of an enemy unit - if it is not in your path of pursuit.

I honestly do not think that the formation you described is anything intended by the desing, though: Skirmishers move in clumps, not in search lines... :(

Festus

ForHire
06-09-2007, 02:45
Yeah, I was merely using that as an obvious example to make the conversation easier, but your answer doesn't really clarify things for me.

So...let's try this...

X = charged unit
Y = charing skirmishers
Z = second unit

............ZZZZZ.............................ZZZZ Z..................ZZZZZ..................ZZZZZ
............ZZZZZ.............................ZZZZ Z..................ZZZZZ.YYYYYYY....ZZZZZ
......................XXXXX....................... ......XXXXX..................YYYYYYY........Y.Y.Y. Y.Y.Y.Y
......................XXXXX....................... ......XXXXX.....................................Y. .Y..Y..Y..Y..Y.Y
.................................................. .........YYYYYYY
................Y.Y.Y.Y.Y.Y.Y..................... ....YYYYYYY
..............Y..Y..Y..Y..Y..Y.Y

So, as you can see, if the skirmishers pursuit in the ranked up formation they'd miss continuing into the Z unit. However, if they return to skirmish formation, they would continue into the Z unit and charge them. That's the question. Why they would stop within an inch doesn't make sense if you DO return them to skirmishing formation after the pursuit.

And, while I'm at it, what happens when skirmishers flee? Do they return to skirmishing as well? And if this then brings them into contact with enemy do they die? Or, do they act in the same manner as charging and have the option to flee around an enemy unit?

T10
06-09-2007, 06:09
The approach that introduces the least uncertainty is where the skirmishers maintain their ranked formation when they flee/pursue and then adopt their skirmishing formation once the move has completed.

-T10

Festus
06-09-2007, 06:44
Well, the question is: When does the close combat end? After blows have been struck? After CR has been calculated and there is a winner? After flee and pursuit?

Honestly, I do not know, and it is not told.

But I do know that if one option causes potential problems, I choose the other. If in doubt...

Well, this means, that the solution Chicago Slim presented is the best. Do not break up formation until you have estabilshed if there are any Pursuit charges to be done.
This makes flee and pursuit part of the close combat, which they obviously are in 7th, as they are to be done with each close combat in turn - and not at the very end like in previous editions.

Problem solved.

Festus

Urgat
06-09-2007, 08:48
I agree with Festus there, because then, what would prevent the skirmisher unit to expend completly on one side in order to get whatever is there? Seems like bending the rules to me, you're sure to always have something to charge next, then. My reading is that you cannot charge something that is not directly in front of your RaF unit when it was in contact with the enemy, because that is that unit, with that formation, that you're pursuing.

Btw, you must not face many charriots or bretonians if you do that kind of formations, I believe :p

Chicago Slim
07-09-2007, 15:11
Well, this means, that the solution Chicago Slim presented is the best.

Hmmm... Maybe it's time for me to make myself a .sig file! :)