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IronNerd
05-09-2007, 05:30
So I am contemplating all the new ideas there are for chaos, as I can't see my IW being viable the way I had them. One of my many ideas does include two Lash Sorcerors. Now, is it already going to be screamed cheese? I was tired of the constant complaints I got as an IW player, so I'm not interested in getting into something that will get the same response.

My idea is two sorcerors leading elite groups of noise marines. The rest is Slaanesh marked troops in Rhinos, with a couple defilers for some support. What do you guys think? Are we as a community banning the lash before the codex comes out?

ctsteel
05-09-2007, 05:43
its part of the new codex - why would it be 'banned' - its a valid option to use for your slaanesh themed army. if people don't want to be hit by it, they keep their units out of its range or use psychic hoods etc, or they take the sorceror out from a distance with tank weaponry.

Archibald_TK
05-09-2007, 06:34
It has generated on every forum a huge amount of whining so you can safely expect the same thing to happen to your gaming group. Whatever your arguments will be lot of cheese will probably be thrown at you, for it is a cheese duty to fly through any argument unharmed.

Actually it's even worse. All of the fight on the net started regarding the huge advantage given by that power to any decent Chaos player. But at a gaming table I expect that what will prevent you from using that power will be the number of opponents who will refuse that you manipulate their own beloved miniatures.

Now if you're only aiming at tournaments then don't even hesitate half a second, go two lashes and smile as your opponent scream in horror.

Darkseer
05-09-2007, 06:37
How about you develop your army to play well without it and then for competitions use it.

What happens a few years down the line when the new chaos codex is out and Lash is no longer there?

Then you're stuffed aren't you? lol :D

Xenocidal Maniac
05-09-2007, 06:42
Well, in all honesty, if you have to ask, it's probably cheesy.

I mean, it's in the codex, and it's perfectly legal. Use it if you want. But I do expect that you will have many of the same problems you had with your Iron Warriors. Right or wrong, people will complain.

Don't use it if you don't wanna hear cries of cheese.

ChaosMaster
05-09-2007, 06:44
The "lash" has limitations and a very random element to it since the amount the target unit can be moved will vary greatly from roll to roll, even though the average will be 7 inches. It's fun, interesting, and powerful, but it's not going to win games every time.

Now that new Ork spell that has an 18" range and allows you to turn a model into a Squig just by rolling higher than your opponent, now that should be banned! LOL!

sebster
05-09-2007, 06:47
It depends on the rest of your list. Like your old IW list, it was possible to build an army that wasn’t completely lame, but no-one ever did it.

Same thing here. If you use your lashes to bunch models together for vindicator hits or isolate heavy weapons troops as the only valid targets and other rules debatable options, people will call you rude words. If you use your lashes to directly pull the enemy closer to your three full strength possessed units, I doubt they’ll complain much at all.

ChaosMaster
05-09-2007, 06:53
I don't believe the lash can be used to bunch models. I had a long talk about this with a GW manager just the other day and we debated the pros and cons of what ambiguities might exist in the rules for Lash. The rules for it clearly state that you roll 2D6 and then move the target the distance rolled within the stated restrictions. If the target is a unit and you move all the models in the target unit the exact distance rolled as stated, then they all get moved at once as a single target, therefore all in the same direction and their spacing in relation to each other won't change.

Archibald_TK
05-09-2007, 07:14
Alas ChaosMaster they are already threads regarding that power and its use/counters on Warseer, Dakka, B&C and the Bell of Lost Souls.

It appears that as it is stated you move the units following normal movement rules and thus can do whatever you want with the position of models. You'll also find that in a real game, moving all of the individual in a unit so that they end up in exactly the same position is impractical at best (try to do it on clear ground with a 20+ models unit and I'll assure you they won't end up as they started), impossible if they are any terrain pieces on their path/destination.

Yet your point isn't really invalid, so I hope that a quick FAQ will definitely clear any doubt on that power as for now the lashes only real use is to generate a limitless amount of arguing among players.

scarvet
05-09-2007, 08:34
Seriously, where is all SM librarians?
About moving enemy model with lash: 40k compulsory move is a joke. Even with the old "rage" move you can still adjust the formation of your troops. Stop making it more complicated than it have to. Besides, it can only be use on visible target and max 2 unit per turn.

Adra
05-09-2007, 09:07
Please no...stop...stop debating the lash rule...please. i beg you! i cant take it anymore!!! ;)

Im about done with the bloody Lash...god GW really should have thought ahead on it and given the Lash rule more detail. sigh

Anyway back on topic...

Its amazing isnt it? Who would have thought a chaos codex has been released and suddenly there are cries of cheese. What a suprise. ;)

Dont worry about it mate...however the rule turns out its still a very handy rule either way and as you are going for sorcerors (who are weaker and not fearless) over DP (who are the main cheese eaters for lash) then i cant see a problem. Whats the point in having the codex if bits of it are just gonna get banned by ur opponents cos they dont like em.

I would like to ban rending on assault cannons please....oh wait...i cant...next!

yabbadabba
05-09-2007, 09:14
I am sorry as I know this is a serious thread but when I saw the title of this my first thought was "Only if used with love. Otherwise it is kinky."

willydstyle
05-09-2007, 09:33
I've been playing practice games with one sorceror with Lash. My opponent's reaction was not "OMG cheesy!" It was "I think I'll bring a Librarian next time." If you play with mature people, then they probably won't bitch about it much. Personally, I think that Lash (and the Eldar psychic powers) are step in the right direction away from psykers being 100+ point models with a heavy flamer.

Moress
05-09-2007, 09:44
Sorry new player here, what do the lashe's do? If it's anything like the 'nid one, does it make you lose attack per assault phase down to a minimume of one?

ctsteel
05-09-2007, 10:34
nay - its a psychic leash of control more than a physical lash, if successful it allows you to move an enemy unit a certain amount in a direction of your choice.

thats about as much as I can go into it without writing up the entire rule.

so people are complaining about it because it allows the opponent to move their unit into a better position as a target for shooting, or further away to prevent assault etc.

TheLionReturns
05-09-2007, 10:59
I really don't see what the big deal is personally. Yes it sounds like a pain but I'm hoping it will have a positive impact on 40K. I worry sometimes that 40K leans towards a trend of building an army, setting a plan and then executing. Personally I would prefer building an army, forming a plan, seeing it fail then having to adapt. Introductions like Lash to the game have the potential to make 40K more of an in-game tactical challenge and one I would welcome. In fact anything that can mess up best laid plans would have my backing.

On a more fundamental note I think it is important we don't get carried away with speculation. Lash sounds very powerful but until the new codex comes into general use and we have seen Lash used a lot, with opponents given time to formulate counter strategies, I think it is dangerous to jump to conclusions. We are in danger of branding something cheesy before we truly know for sure, and perhaps tainting what could be a perfectly balanced strategy.

Oh as a side note Slaanesh as well as Nurgle are the two chaos powers I despise (no offense to players of those armies of course), so I am going to be on the receiving end of lash. My support for it is not as a Slaanesh player.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
05-09-2007, 14:27
personally, if i was a CSM player, i wouldnt use the Lash until it had been properly FAQ'd, so that it is clear to everyone exactly how it is supposed to work.

to the OP: if you are going give it to 2 models, i would suggest that you didnt cast it on the same unit twice in the same turn. if you voluntarily show restraint like that then people are going to be far more... forgiving, IMO (and less likely to cry "cheese!").

of course, if the designers come out and say "sure - cast it twice on the same unit and drag them 4D6" towards your CC troops so you get a first turn charge!" then thats a different matter... ;)

~ Tim

nazrag
05-09-2007, 15:54
personally, if i was a CSM player, i wouldnt use the Lash until it had been properly FAQ'd, so that it is clear to everyone exactly how it is supposed to work.

to the OP: if you are going give it to 2 models, i would suggest that you didnt cast it on the same unit twice in the same turn. if you voluntarily show restraint like that then people are going to be far more... forgiving, IMO (and less likely to cry "cheese!").

of course, if the designers come out and say "sure - cast it twice on the same unit and drag them 4D6" towards your CC troops so you get a first turn charge!" then thats a different matter... ;)

~ Tim

something I believe they are quite likely to do, concerning how usefull the replies in the faq's usually are.. :rolleyes:

to the OP, I will hardly call you a cheesemonger for using something that's allowed in the codex. But some people might, the kind of people that are not able to create a sollution to the problems Lash can create. If you like it, go for it!

de Selby
05-09-2007, 16:05
Min max the hell out of your army and lash all of your opponents to within an inch of their lives. Then report back how well you do here. It probably won't make you popular but it'll provide some interesting data on whether taking out all the sublists has actually resulted in a less unbalanced codex.

If it turns out that that min-maxed twin-lashing chaos armies are still less annoying to play against than the old heavy support IW armies, at least the gaming community really has gained some balance in return for reducing all the themed chaos lists to counts-as.

inquisitor solarris
05-09-2007, 16:11
i beleive if it's in the codex it's ok with me as long as it's legal
unlike some one i knew who had only landspeeders,dreads and whrilwinds so go for it.

malisteen
05-09-2007, 16:41
I refuse to use it in my army, mostly because it's just poorly written and prone to serious arguments over its effects, and that's even before you get to whether or not it's cheesy.

If you want to run your army as described go ahead, but I recommend not using the lash until it gets FAQ'd. Just buy your sorcerers warp time or doom bolt or something.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2007, 16:56
Well, as long as the opponent has a psychic hood, I don't think he should whine as the psychic hood itself is still a little bit to powerful.

But I can see why armies without psychic hoods could get a little bit anyoing to play against this army as this seems to be another case of to lazy rule writing...

IronNerd
05-09-2007, 17:17
Well, I see a decent amount of positive attitude towards the lash, at least in the way I am intending it. Truthfully, I've yet to play a game with the new 'dex, so I can't comment on what is useful and what isn't. That being said... the lash seems mean.

I also feel the need to point out how many armies have the ability to do something about it. The majority of armies in the world are SM, thus they have access to a psychic hood. Any Imperial army has the option to grab an inquisitor and thus a psychic hood. I'm not really very familiar with Eldar, but I'm pretty sure they have tools to mess with enemy psykers. With the fairly current trend of increasing psychic ability in codices, are we going to be seeing more and more anti-psyker abilities on the table?

leonmallett
05-09-2007, 17:31
Well, I see a decent amount of positive attitude towards the lash, at least in the way I am intending it. Truthfully, I've yet to play a game with the new 'dex, so I can't comment on what is useful and what isn't. That being said... the lash seems mean.

I also feel the need to point out how many armies have the ability to do something about it. The majority of armies in the world are SM, thus they have access to a psychic hood. Any Imperial army has the option to grab an inquisitor and thus a psychic hood. I'm not really very familiar with Eldar, but I'm pretty sure they have tools to mess with enemy psykers. With the fairly current trend of increasing psychic ability in codices, are we going to be seeing more and more anti-psyker abilities on the table?


I can see Shadow in the Warp potentialy appearing more often in my 'Nid configurations.

shin'keiro
05-09-2007, 17:56
So I am contemplating all the new ideas there are for chaos, as I can't see my IW being viable the way I had them. One of my many ideas does include two Lash Sorcerors. Now, is it already going to be screamed cheese? I was tired of the constant complaints I got as an IW player, so I'm not interested in getting into something that will get the same response.

My idea is two sorcerors leading elite groups of noise marines. The rest is Slaanesh marked troops in Rhinos, with a couple defilers for some support. What do you guys think? Are we as a community banning the lash before the codex comes out?

If by 'cheese' you mean Beardy then no - have as many as the rules allow.. why would it be banned.. its in the codex!

TzarNikolai
05-09-2007, 19:25
...so I'm not interested in getting into something that will get the same response.

to answer your question, it will get the same response.

...however warn your opponents you're going to be using it, play some games and then come back and tell how broken it is/how your opponents tried to deal with it. etc.

Randy
05-09-2007, 20:30
Tbh if you pulled it on me, then I'd sigh. I'd then say something along the lins of "bleh" or "Ah crap". Then I'd resign to the fact you were going to isolate my units and hammer them with whatever suits you best >_>

Then I'd pull 2 librarians out just to annoy you -.-

But tbh, I was used to bolton on Saturdays.. The only palce I've ever seen more cheese was at the cheese counter of a supermarket.. And that's jsut because it was bigger then the store x_x Starcannon army of doom was the standerd kind of make up xD

Lord Inquisitor
05-09-2007, 20:46
Hmmm. I've not got the new Codex yet, but I really like the sound of the Lash - it seems just great for Slaanesh, and a counterpart to the Lore of Slaanesh. So as such I love the idea and I think it sounds vicious, just perfect for my Slaanesh characters. Shame it's produced such a controversy though! Between the Lash and the new AP3 doom sirens, I suspect that my army is going to be considered "cheesy", which is not what I want at all...

Marinox
05-09-2007, 20:50
lose. let them win for the first several games.

i've never heard a person who won a game cry for the WAAAAAmbulance.

linvus232
05-09-2007, 21:07
If the Lash is as 'cheesy' as many people are making it out to be, then I'd expect to see more anti-psyker wargear (such as psychic hoods, et al, most armies can muster something anti-psychic) around. As it stands I've not played against one yet so I can't really formulate an opinion but I get the feeling my Librarian is going to be used more frequently in my Marine armies (at least against Slaanesh-themed Chaos) in the future.

It seems like something of a novelty really, taking anti-psyker wargear *just in case* your opponent has a particular psychic power...I never thought I'd hear myself write anything like those words.

Son of Makuta
05-09-2007, 21:22
Hmm. I'm planning to use it in a Chaos Deathwing type army build, but because it suits the feel of the army more than anything. I personally wouldn't use 2 in games of less than two detachments, mostly 'cos I like daemon princes ;), but also because it's a bit harsh in my view. I like Gift of Chaos, too.

But it is a very fluffy and very cool power, and puts Chaos psykers on par with Farseers, Zoanthropes and Librarians.

Peril
05-09-2007, 21:34
I cannot wait to see how many people try to shoehorn 2 lashes into their army and try to claim that it fits their "theme".

As to the Lash itself, one probably isn't so bad, but as Tim said two on the same unit pulling some poor fool out of cover and into a first turn Berserker charge is wrong.

I like the idea of the power (pull that annoying battlesuit out from behind that cover once and for all!), but there are seemingly too many abuses for it currently. I will withhold judgement until i see it in action.

The Muffin Man
05-09-2007, 22:12
This is ridiculous, moaning about lash moving your troops is like moaning about the enemy shooting killing your troops. If its in the codex then your opponent has no right to ban you from using it.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
05-09-2007, 23:03
It seems like something of a novelty really, taking anti-psyker wargear *just in case* your opponent has a particular psychic power...I never thought I'd hear myself write anything like those words.
isnt that how its been for years, except it was Siren they were trying to stop instead? :p


If its in the codex then your opponent has no right to ban you from using it.
they have every right to ban you from using it against them - you cannot force them to play a certain way against their will (unless you have a gun... :eek:). :eyebrows:

~ Tim

ctsteel
05-09-2007, 23:10
there are a number of other abilities around that allow the opponent to move your troops (callidus ability for one). sure that's only at the start of the game but the precedent is there.
about the only armies I can think of that don't have easy access to some form of anti-psyker protection are orks and tau (and dark eldar?) - and they can come up with counters I'm sure, like having more vehicles near the psyker than troops, or using big guns from a distance to smear the lash-boy all over the ground.

there's always a tactic to overcome an enemy strength, even if it is just to deny them the full use of that strength - put your troops behind a vehicle; use big guns from afar; use fearless troops to avoid the pinning; use psychic hoods; use walkers to charge the psyker; use a heap of troop units all near each other for support; hug impassible terrain so you can only move in the direction you predict.

Other armies have abilities that can be just as bad if not worse in-game (I personally hate the monoliths flux arc as there's little you can do when it deep strikes in the middle of all your units) - but you learn to accept it happens and you come up with strategies of your own in advance, or learn to adapt at the time - thats part of the fun, to work past that danger and still tromp your enemy.

Tulun
05-09-2007, 23:56
I would avoid using it in friendly games; unless your opponent uses a similar cheesy lists. It may be legal, but it's certainly unfriendly.

It's definitely going to be abused effectively by a number of people. First turn charges will be so easily possible on smaller boards (4x4), and I doubt (4x6) will be much better. The Calidus move is 1 unit before the entire game starts, and a max of 6"... the Lash has so many uses, it's scary (and it could be used 12 times in a game).

a) Bunch up, Ordnance/Plasma cannon. Unit can be moved out of cover and then obliterated in 1 shot.
b) Throw a unit closer / away from you. Throw that Dev squad terrain, bring that unit into charge range (effectively, on average, a Daemon Prince could achieve a 25" charge, with as low as 20 and as high as 30). If 2 Lashes happen to be in range, you could up that to a 27-42" charge.
c) Push a unit off an objective. This is a big one, and yes, it could easily decide a game.

Just know your opponent, and bring 2 lists. Is the guy you are playing generally nice, has decent lists, doesn't power game, etc? Use the lashless list. If his list is just as cheesy, than go right ahead... fight cheese with cheese, that's what its there for.

newbis
06-09-2007, 00:12
So now we aren't using anything without a clear ruling or that our opponents might not like? Might as well not bother playing then. Someone will cry cheese over just about anything and I'm not holding my breath waiting for a FAQ. Where is that Eldar FAQ again? Oh, GW can't be bothered to post it.

Here is a novel concept. Talk with your opponent and come to an agreement on poorly written rules. In the event you can't agree roll a dice. I'm pretty sure that even appears in the rules.

ctsteel
06-09-2007, 00:18
how is the lash worse than Fury of the Ancients? that particular power can cut a line clear across the board, ignoring LOS, and can wound/pin every unit it touches. the lash affects one unit at a time. predict it, work around it, hell use it to your advantage - bait the sorceror to come close enough to use it, then when he is the closest target, light him up with everything you've got.
crying cheese is for sooks. if a list is tough to beat, then you need to work on your own list and tactics to figure out how to beat it (or ignore/work around it), not brow beat the opponent into dumbing his list down.

apaosha
06-09-2007, 00:40
Eh, it sounds like a cool rule. They seem to be trying to fix the old Allure of Slaanesh Gift.

But then again, I'm biased ....

CommisarMolotov
06-09-2007, 02:10
To paraphrase "Animal Farm:"

"One lash GOOD! Two lash BAD!"

Bunnahabhain
06-09-2007, 02:25
I really don't want to start running an Inquisitor with psychic hood as a standard part of the Guard army, it just doesn't feel right.

However, the number of armies now with psychic powers well worth stopping- chaos, eldar, marines, and the new ork powers are nasty as well- means it may be unavoidable.

I'll wait until I've played against it, but the lash does seem very powerful.

azimaith
06-09-2007, 03:08
I can't see you getting complaints about it unless you overuse it to the absence of background.

If you make your army a one trick lash pony people won't like it.

The Muffin Man
06-09-2007, 15:37
isnt that how its been for years, except it was Siren they were trying to stop instead? :p


they have every right to ban you from using it against them - you cannot force them to play a certain way against their will (unless you have a gun... :eek:). :eyebrows:

~ Tim

Ahaha. Ok how about if I used a mechanized army are you saying I can just ban the use of all anti-tank weapons because thats the way I want to play.

CommisarMolotov
06-09-2007, 15:40
Ahaha. Ok how about if I used a mechanized army are you saying I can just ban the use of all anti-tank weapons because thats the way I want to play.

Naw - I think Malek was trying to say that nobody can force you to play a friendly game against your will.

If you see somebody "cheesing it up," you're always free to simply pack up your miniatures and walk away from the table, eh?

Lord Malek The Red Knight
06-09-2007, 20:21
Ahaha. Ok how about if I used a mechanized army are you saying I can just ban the use of all anti-tank weapons because thats the way I want to play.
against you? of course you can. :)

now, while you can stop people using Anti-tank weapons against you, you cant make them play you without such weapons (see where that leaves you?). ;)

if someone says you can only play against them if you dont take 2 Lashes of Submission, you have a choice to make: either you play them and take 0-1 Lashes, or you dont play them at all. either way you dont get to use 2 Lashes against them (although that doesnt mean other people wont let you use 2 against them).

if they dont want to play a certain kind of game with you, why would you want to play that kind of game against them? :confused:

~ Tim

Perfect Organism
06-09-2007, 22:06
As others have said, I'd wait until the FAQ on it is published, or at least only use it with friends and agree house rules on how it actually works beforehand.

The good thing about psychic powers is that they don't need to be represented on the models though, so you are free to build a slanneshi army with a sorceror and a demon prince (or whatever you were planning on) then giving them different powers for every game. Keeps people guessing at least.

Bassik
06-09-2007, 22:22
Affcorse its okay to use it. Dont let these people give you the idea its overpowered, they never even have seen it work!;)

CommisarMolotov
06-09-2007, 22:25
Affcorse its okay to use it. Dont let these people give you the idea its overpowered, they never even have seen it work!;)

You don't have to actually drop a bowling ball on your toe to know it's gonna hurt...

And the potential abuses of two lashes (hell, even one lash) have already been well-discussed.

redbaron998
06-09-2007, 22:27
Its pretty powerful sometimes but like some posters have said hoods and a good deployment and good thinking can render them to pretty weak,

I think (and I think many will agree) use it for slanesh armies, if ya do in khorne, tzeentch, or nurlge, expect some complaining. Eithier way Id rather fight lash army o doom any day over nidzilla.

BTW, does it work against vehicles?

ctsteel
06-09-2007, 23:39
no - non-vehicles only. so stick a unit behind a rhino etc and he can't even lash them in the first place. and he might even fail his Perils test first turn - anything is possible, and your opponent taking one power does not auto-lose the game for you - its just an obstacle to be dealt with, like any other choice your opponent makes.