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Dayhan
05-09-2007, 12:10
I added a post to the "how to improve chaos" Thread but thought I would add this to a thread on its own to see what you think. I refined a few bits.

The basic idea is for a human unit in the special choice for any one not wonting to field daemons, like my self. Don't get me wrong Daemons on a hole are OK but I like to field a human warband.

So my idea is for a unit called Berserker's that are like the Empires version of Flagellants. They could be Marauders or chaos warriors Driven mad by chaos. Solders that have gone insane due to the horrors they have seen over a long period of time.

There insanity could mean a dice role at the start of each combat round and each number = an ability.

1 = Strike first -1 str
2 = +1 combat resolution
3 = +1T Strike last
4 = +1 Str -1 Initiative
5 = +1 D6 to Pursuit
6 = Extra attack

They would have a stat line to work in conjunction with there insanity.

M5 / WS5-4 / BS0 / Str 5-3 / T2 / I4 / A2 / LD 8

M 5 due to there Berserker rage. Must charge if in 10 inc.
WS 5 on the charge (not first round of combat)
BS 0 too insane to use range weapons
Str 5 on the charge. Then 3 after
T 2 because of there insanity, they basically haven't a clue on how to defend them selfs.
I4 Giving them the chance to do some damage
A2 to show there insanity and frenzy
LD8 so they are hard to make flee.

The unit would be stubborn but unable to take a full command. So they basically have ranks, out number and wounds to win combat. Also if they flee in to a friendly unit. That unit takes D6 wound based on there charge stats but not a panic unless enough wounds caused. And they rally on - half the number they lost combat on. So lost by 3 would mean rounded up to 4 and half that for a LD 6 to rally. Makes the unit quite hard in combat but once beaten a disadvantage to the chaos player. Also a good chance once they run, they may never rally.

So whats your thoughts. My first time designing a unit and althought they can on the charge look scary, after that they can be crap.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 12:22
Forgot to add. I haven't a clue on points cost per model. And not sure if they should have the option to take shields. My idea was extra hand weapon as basic for cost. Although that would make them rather vulnerable to shooting army's.

catbarf
05-09-2007, 12:39
Berserker's = something a berserker owns
Berserkers = multiple berserkers.

This should be in rules development.

Three Headed Monkey
05-09-2007, 12:41
Would they suffer from frenzy?

Personally I think they have too many rules. I like the idea of a random ability though.

I think perhaps they could be a bit more powerfull in combat, frenzied, but skirmishing. It does not seem like a unit of insane men charging headlong at the enemy would stay in ranks. Especially since they are a chaos unit, they would be much more insane and uncontrolable than flagelants, who while are nuts, can keep themselves in order. These berserkers should either have to be restrained when not in battle, or they take some sort of magic brew that turns them nuts before hand.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 13:02
Yeas they have frenzy on the charge. Would make them 15 attacks WS5 and Str 5 on the charge. If you loose that combat they deserve to run. Skirmishng is a good idea. Make them harder to shoot and able to go through difficault terrain. Good idea.

Neknoh
05-09-2007, 13:14
Norse Marauders from Dogs of War, if you want Berserkers, use those.

There isn't any need to improve Chaos other than changing the general way in which Elite Infantry works or giving Warriors something akin to stubborn, that, and making the normal Daemons more viable as a pure army is all that I would ever want from GW to do with Chaos.

If you find these rules are suitable to you and your gaming group allows you to use them, then fine by me, but I would rather have you use the actual berserkers than trying to create your own

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 13:57
So what will be the special units for chaos, if they bring this daemon army book out. Would basically remove every special unit in the HOC book. Can't see them putting there stats in 2 books.

yer Deamon's are fine if

A) you have lots of cash to buy these rather expensive models.
B) If you wont to use Daemon's
c) I thought an army book was designed to give you choices, so you can make list to how you wont to play with in the Army list Organisation chart. Well the way it is at the moment. You got 2 choices use Daemon's as special or don't have a special unit. Not a lot of choice there.

blurred
05-09-2007, 14:20
Too many special rules and IMO they are just awful. You do realize that they drop like flies when shot at.

Chaos does not need new troops nor new rules; they are viable as they are. The rulebook should change the role of elite units and thus improve the things that are not so good in the current chaos book. Nothing more is needed.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 14:53
OK i'll say it again what if GWS dose bring this Daemon army book out. WHAT is chaos going to have as special untis.

There's plenty of threads on if chaos is good enought of how to improve them. This is about the unit. Nothing else. Of course I welcome any positive or negative feed back but try and keep the thread on try guys....

Neknoh
05-09-2007, 15:17
IF such a list would be printed, Chaos would still have bucketloads of Special choices, for instance,

If a mortal general:

Daemon True Daemonic units as well as Daemonic non-true core units and Daemonic Cavalry (0-1 per Daemon true core of that god)

Beast units
Beasts of Chaos special Choices

Rare would be:

Daemonic Legions Rare choices
Beasts of Chaos Rare choices
Hordes of Chaos Rare choices


And Games Workshop is NOT bringing out a Daemonic armybook, we have had NO confirmation on this topic from Harry or Hastings, it is also not logical of GW to release such a big thing without any form of promotion for it on the past Games Dayes or Gaming Convents of this year. A release of a separate Daemon Armybook would not be POSSIBLE untill revamping the Hordes of Chaos book alltogether due to the rules for Instabillity being different and affekted different by the Battle Standard and Army General, much like the Daemonic Legions list in the Storm of Chaos book.

It is just as likely that Chaos when revamped keeps their Hordes of Chaos book and have the same layout as that of todays Chaos, except with more units and descriptions on how to implement them into the gaming.

Besides, there is no NEED for a Mortal Special Choice, I mean, why would there be? Unlike 40k where you can only have a limited ammount of units for your Troops choices, Chaos has no roof for the ammount of units that can be taken, and as such, there is no need for a Special choice which you seem to believe there is. I mean, you don't have to field a Special choice if you want, where do you get this idea from?

As for the unit, as I said, this unit isn't something I'd personally use, especially when the opportunity to EITHER use the Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown Norscans OR remodel some Marauders to be used as Raiders and Berserkers and then use the rules for Beastherds and Bestigors for them. I know that if I would do a Marauder horde, I would deffinately field Dark Children (Minotaur, Troll or Chaos Ogre rules used), Norscan raiders (Beastherd and Centigor rules used) as well as Huskarls (Chaos Warrior and Bestigor rules used depending on the eliteness of them) and Berserkers (either Khornegors, or Norscan Marauders depending on which slot I'd have open).

theunwantedbeing
05-09-2007, 16:05
Rubbish newbie made unit by somebody who doesnt seem to have a decent grasp of how warhammer units are created.

Sorry if thats a bit harsh but I got about helfway through commenting and only the in4 bit made any sense to me,plus your wierd flee into friendly units thing is overly confusing.

Berserkers.
0-1 per marauder unit
Stats
As marauders,but they gain frenzy and are skirmishers
They arent allowed any command.
10pts each

There you go,way more simple.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 17:33
I thnik I'm going to stop using these forum. I thought I was hot head. Wow I'm a novice.

theunwantedbeing
05-09-2007, 18:18
Im sorry but thats the impression I get from looking at those berserkers.
Do I have to explain why?

Mv5...silly seeing as no other humans get mv5
Ws5...they arent anymore skilled than marauders
bs0...they arent monsters who are unable to hold a ranged weapon
st5 then 3.....give them flails?you dont need to put st5 then.
to2...only skinks are t2,nothing else is,not even bretonnian peasants
in4...as I stated before,fine.
at2....1 attack and frenzy is better and fits better,being a crazed psychopath doesnt give you extra attacks(note witch elves get 1 attack on their profile,and they are way way faster than your berserkers).
ld8....sure whatever,I dont really care anymore,ld7 would be fine if they had frenzy anyway.

Your random stuff needs to have rolls where nothing happens.
ie.
1. the unit takes D3 wounds
2. nothing happens
3. armour piercing
4. +1 strength
5. +1 toughness
6. All of the above.

As for your comments....well you did say it was your first time designing a unit.It's only natural for it to be a poor attempt.(seeing as thats generally how it goes,new unit designed by a player,...the unit turns out to be very poor,or overpowered).

Is that more constructive?

badgeraddict
05-09-2007, 18:45
theunwantedbeing....dude! Its only a suggestion! Its not as if what Dayhan is saying WILL be gospel. Take a lesson in constructive critizism. After all Warhammer and the like are only games.

Blessed be.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 19:16
I'm sorry but thats the impression I get from looking at those berserker's.
Do I have to explain why?

Mv5...silly seeing as no other humans get Mv5
Ws5...they aren't anymore skilled than marauders
bs0...they aren't monsters who are unable to hold a ranged weapon
st5 then 3.....give them flails?you don't need to put st5 then.
to2...only skinks are T,nothing else is,not even Brennan peasants
in4...as I stated before,fine.
at2....1 attack and frenzy is better and fits better,being a crazed psychopath doesn't give you extra attacks(note witch elves get 1 attack on their profile,and they are way way faster than your berserker's).
ld8....sure whatever,I dint really care anymore,LDC would be fine if they had frenzy anyway.

Your random stuff needs to have rolls where nothing happens.
IE.
1. the unit takes D wounds
2. nothing happens
3. Armour piercing
4. +1 strength
5. +1 toughness
6. All of the above.

As for your comments....well you did say it was your first time designing a unit.It's only natural for it to be a poor attempt.(seeing as thats generally how it goes,new unit designed by a player,...the unit turns out to be very poor,or overpowered).

Is that more constructive?

Very thank you. I just seem to bring the worst out in people I'm sure. No disrespect but its like if I post every one get the mark of khrone and goes frenzy on me.

Ill' try and explain again my idea's behind the stats.

Movement 5" because there like human versions of spawns. Totally insane, not able to understand anything apart from kill. It also means you would have to be car full how you used them. If you kept them in line formation, they could easterly be drawn out with out getting other charges because of the extra 2". (due to Frenzy)

WSkill 5 on the charge only. Then WS 4. If your unable to position them correctly for a charge or stupidly leave them open,. Then you loose that 1WS for the Charge. There WS4 is a normal marauder WS after the charge.

BS kill of 0 because there insane unable to grasp the simple idea of using stuff that enables them to shoot. Bs of 3 or 0 makes very little difference to an army that has very very few shooting units. Why would you give an insane unit the same chance to hit on shooting as a unit with no mental problems ?

Str 5 on the charge, then 3 like normal Marauders. Str 5 with out flails because in real life. It is often the case people with mental problems seem to be stronger. My daughter works with autistic kids. And she can't believe how strong they are. 3 adults to restrain a 12 year old girl from hurting her self. (the above comment was not meant to be disrespectfully to any one) Also the unit is really like a hammer with its WS5 and Str 5 on the charge. It either wins that turn or get stuck in combat for the rest of the game.

T2 because it seems logical that they don't care about there own safety and would do little to defend them selfs. They would swing there club, Axe etc to try and kill you but if they missed, I couldn't see them caring to block with there shield . They just wont to swing again and again and again.

I4 I would think some one insane who is trying to kill you will rush in, not sit about waiting for the best chance to strike.

A2 I can't see why an insane lunatic wouldn't have 2 attacks. Also there frenzied. They have to charge if possible and would get 1 extra attack if they charged but only in that first round of combat.

Ld8 and stubborn because no matter how much I try i can't see an insane person who's hell bent on kill. Really bothered if 1-10 of his unit die by his side or not.

As I said they have no access to a command. there not able to understand the idea behind standard and musician, and I can't see any one insane person being better at being insane to be worthy of an extra attack as champion.

I think the idea of causing D6 wounds to any unit they flee through. Is perfectly acceptable. There insane and I can't see there bothered who they attack. May be they should have some form of test to see if they fight between them self at the start of each turn.

OK the fleeing idea was a bit OTT. Just I wonted some way of making them hard to rally if they flee. I see them as a hammer to strike and break a unit in the turn they charge or become basically normal marauders.

I like the idea of the unit having a random ability for the positive or negative each round of combat. I don't think they should get this role if they charge the First turn. But the idea I came up with for each number was there as a starting point for people to add comments to try and perfect those roles.

I've looked up berserker's in the BOW book and there nothing special. I don't even no they was a unit with that name. So maybe another name then. Along the line of Zealots, like the warhammer online have. I know there a hard hitting unit on the turn they charge but so can Flagellants be. Role a 6 on sacrifice and its normally good buy unit.

Neknoh
05-09-2007, 19:34
Hrmm... based on what you've said so far, I'd still give them the same stats as Marauders simply because M4, WS4, Ini4, Strength 3, Toughness 3 A1 is what is expected from a human, insane and non-caring or not.

Toughness is not affected by the skill to block, it is a measurement of how much the body can take, unlike Strength which is the damage potential. Orcs have Tougness 4 simply because they are dead 'ard, Skinks T2 because they are weedier than gobblins, I mean, if you kick a skink in the shin , you will shatter or break the bone, that wont happen to a human now will it?

Movement 4 is represented by people who both run and march, Beastmen have Movement 5 simply because they have stronger muscles, it doesn't matter how mentally ill you are, you would still not be able to push yourself beyond your muscle strength, perhaps add D3 to their Charge Range instead?

Also, give them Strength 3 normally and give them the options to either use Flails or Additional Handweapons, give them Frenzy as well and I'd say that you'd be all set.

As for the Mark of Khorne, I think that it might be due to you often taking a very defensive position and not looking into what people are saying, and I'd say it all started with your rant, rants are not looked kindly upon on Warseer, especially not rants which turns into a flamewar which then turns into a mutual argument of "he started it" between the flamers. Personally, I am sorry that I came across a bit rash in the beginning, it's just that I'm sick and tired of all these posts that try to either fix Chaos or give them new units (which allready exist, like Berserkers, or which are completely and utterly idiotic, not like these though), or generaly whine about how bad something is with the book, there has been a lot of this lately, and, you also you all ofa sudden shouted that there has to be a Special choice and based this on a very loose rumour, not to mention the fact that you disregarded Beasts of Chaos completely, and I have to admitt that I got slightly irked by this way of looking at the game.

gorenut
05-09-2007, 19:45
No offense, but I do agree with theunwantedbeing (except I wouldn't have put it so harshly) and Neknoh (which I thought was being constructive). I think you have some good ideas, but you have to remember that things need to get ironed out to make more "sense" in gaming terms and in comparison to other units in the game.

If you really want Chaos berserkers, take Dogs of War Norsemen. If you want extra punch, take Beorg Bearstruck and his Norsemen (since you're already going the route of custom rules, I doubt you'll care about DoW or special characters). You can honestly just customize the models you want and make your own story - just use the rules (make sure your opponents know). Honestly though, if your rules were to come into fruition, it would basically be your typical marauder with mark of Khorne. They could take great weapons or flails to get the strength bonus you want.

In short, your unit rules are overly complicated both in the rules themselves and because the stats go against the basic knowledge of human stats in the Warhammer world.

logan054
05-09-2007, 19:51
As i said in the improve chaos threat i liked the idea, i think maybe a D3 roll would be far better.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 20:05
Thxs for your constructive reply. I play Chaos and Dwarfs. I doesn't bother me if I loose with dwarfs as I consider them to be a goods all round army and normally perform quite well. Even if I loose with them, It's not that bad, normally a MV at worse.

I know this is going to hurt some people's feelings but I really Hate painting. I'm Diabetic, So my hands shack a lot. So its not so much I'm a crap painter. Its really down to I find it hard to paint. And I've spend a lot of very frustration time painting and converting my HOC. So when I loose with them due to something other than a bad tactic. I get a bit hot headed. I was a fool to post that thread about "had enough" and I'm sure I'll pay for it in the near future.

As for your beast comment. I nearly got a beast Herd collected. Call me tight but I think the prices of Daemon's at the moment is robbery. I'm by no means tight or broke. but if its putting food on the table or buying some metal models, I know what one wins. I hoping the rumors on plastic Daemon's is true and they will be fairly priced. As I'd love to do a Nurgle themed army.

I also like the idea of a human themed Chaos army. I know thats abit blind sighted and I'm sure a few Daemon's units might help. But I started chaos for the purpose of making it a human warband. Whether that makes the army weeker or not is something I better learn to live with.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
05-09-2007, 20:08
Hrmm... based on what you've said so far, I'd still give them the same stats as Marauders simply because M4, WS4, Ini4, Strength 3, Toughness 3 A1 is what is expected from a human, insane and non-caring or not.

ok dude

tell me why champions have MORE than 1 attack ?

you probably can't - they are just humans afterall:rolleyes:

you are silly.

gorenut
05-09-2007, 20:11
I also like the idea of a human themed Chaos army. I know thats abit blind sighted and I'm sure a few Daemon's units might help. But I started chaos for the purpose of making it a human warband. Whether that makes the army weeker or not is something I better learn to live with.

Well, if it's any help at all.. my cousin started his Chaos army, only wanting mortals as well. He didn't want his army to be totally "tainted"

He used Daemons and Beasts, but used converted human models to represent them. An example of this was using feral human to represent Beastherds. They still had the WS of marauders, but due to living in harsher conditions, they gain a pt in toughness, but also them being feral had a drop to leadership and having unruly. Something that could be seen as both cruel or funny..the ungors were represented as youths.

Though maybe he's not the best of examples now, he has since totally just embrace and accepted Chaos. His army straight up has beastherds now and now he wants to start a Daemonic legion:D.

gorenut
05-09-2007, 20:18
ok dude

tell me why champions have MORE than 1 attack ?

you probably can't - they are just humans afterall:rolleyes:

you are silly.

Because for the most part, ATTACK isn't really a racial characteristic. Most races share the same amount of attacks except when it comes to their characters (and even then, they are still pretty close). In my opinion the combination of WS, S, and A is the ability/skill/will/drive (supernatural or not) that one has to wound his opponent.

Attack alone does not represent speed and reflexes. I believe it's movement and initiative (and now special rules) that does that. Otherwise we'd be seeing all Elves with 2 attacks.

Dayhan
05-09-2007, 20:31
I think the extra attack a champion has, Represents his greater ability to fight. You would expect a black belt in Karate with 10 years experience to be better at fighting than a novice with 1 years. He has the able to strike twice be for his opponent has the skill to react.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
05-09-2007, 20:35
ok Grail Knights have 2 attacks - humans
Chaos Chosen have 2 attacks - human
Swordmaster will have 2 attacks - elf

why berzerker cant have 2 attack - you cant count up to 2 ? then it is clearly game not for you :)

edit: it is for Neknoh btw

theunwantedbeing
05-09-2007, 20:47
Grail knights are the best of the best.
As well as all being unit champions.

Chosen are the best of the best,being mostly chaos warrior champions banded together(seeing as the unit champion is last man to die in a unit,if the unit survives so does he).

Swordsmasters dont have 2 attacks,they have 1 attack.
Rumours are just rumours untill the book is released and made official.

Having lost your mind through the horrors of war wont make you a better fighter,its more likely to make you a worse fighter..
You doubt your skills...lowered weaponskill
You doubt your ability to harm the enemy...lowered strength
You doubt your worth....lowered leadership

Neknoh
05-09-2007, 22:02
ok Grail Knights have 2 attacks - humans
Chaos Chosen have 2 attacks - human
Swordmaster will have 2 attacks - elf

why berzerker cant have 2 attack - you cant count up to 2 ? then it is clearly game not for you :)

edit: it is for Neknoh btw

Grail Knights are humans, however, they have seen the grail, they have actually FOUND it, and they serve the Lady of the Lake, they are blessed, they have traveled the woodlands of Athel Loren for countless years, they have hunted down beastmen, they have dedicated their entire lives to this kind of fighting. They are THE Knights, each of them is also a Unit Champion in his own right, a Grail Knight is as good a knight as a non-leader gets.

Chaos Chosen have two attacks, that is true, however, are they human? Only partially, Chaos Chosen are NOT in ANY WAY similar to a normal human when it comes to physique and fighting abillity. Chaos Chosen are blessed by their gods, gifted with supernatural speed, extra limbs, and a physique a normal mortal can only ever dream of achieving (do note, Grail Knights are NOT normal mortals), thus the Toughness Four and Strength Four base as well, I don't see you bringing this up, could be because that prooves that they are not your run off the mill fighty-human that Swordsmen and Marauders are perhaps?

And since when does training for half a millennia not make you a good swordfighter? Especially if your everyday life is comprised of training, training and then some more training? Not to mention the ELVEN reflexes.

Attacks is a measurement of sheer damage output, as is Strength, those two combined gives you an estimation of how much damage something can do. ALL of the above units have stats beyond HUMAN Unit Champions, you could try to bring up "Not Chaos Warriors!" as an argument, however, they are on the way to chosen-ness, and they are by far NOT your average human. Not ot mention that Chosen warriors also have Chaos Armour which acts as a second skin to them.

A normal baseline in Warhammer Fantasy Battles is measured from Empire Spearmen, it has been stated by Games Workshop in previous editions of the game, it is the general consensus, if something is better than him, it costs more points, if it is worse, it costs less. An Empire Spearman is your normal human, slightly less trained than a professional Swordsman, but not much. We can use Swordsmen if you'd like. An Empire Swordsman has a strength of 3, and, Empire IS what we should use, since ALL humans that are NOT augmented by otherwordly or supernatural powers have this strength level. Same goes for their one attack, unit Champions are the best fighters that can be found, the reason they do NOT make up units of their own is that someone needs to lead the less veteran warriors. A unit Champion in a unit of Empire Swordsmen is very likely a veteran at swordfighting, he might even be a senior instructor, but he's good at fighting, he's darn good at fighting. Same goes for ALL unit Champions which have earnt the extra attack, they are BETTER than their unit because THAT is the person the unit would need to lead them, a veteran, someone with either superior authority, or fighting skill, or tactical knowledge, all depending on which race you go by.

Why a Berserker should NOT have two attacks as a base? Because he is HUMAN, he has NOT dedicated his life to fighting, no matter HOW much you claim he has, he has NOT. Berserkers were good fighters, that is a given, thus their WS 4 and Initiative 4, however, they were NOT superhuman, they ate mushrooms to go into a battlefrenzy before their battle, the key word here being FRENZY! If you as a human want an extra attack, it should be aquirable, and it is, through a very useful rule to represent this kind of battlerage, this rule is called Frenzy and exists for a reason. It represents models fighting with an extreme bloodlust or with pure rage, and is included to give normal units of a race that one extra attack which the player wants. The second way of doing this is to give an Additional Handweapon to the unit, quite accurately representing the increased ammount of blows that can be layed down by a human armed with two weapons at the expense of a good armoursave, again, an accurate representation. Now, given that these warriors are normal humans, not a group of unit-champion-level fighters, one attack is appropriate. Now, to represent that they are berserkers, Frenzy is appropriate as well, in fact, it is almost requires, sure, if you don't want it to run out, give them a rule so that they do not loose Frenzy for loosing a battle. Also give them the option to use an Additional Handweapon or a Flail, both are excellent weapons to represent the psychological state of mind which the unit is in, and it would also prevent them from using a Shield, thus representing the lack of parrying a person with such a mindset would have.

Now, do you want anything else said, or are you just going to referr to me as silly again? Or perhaps dock my abillity to count again? I am rather tired, I've had a very rough (socially) weekend, and wether or not those comments were toungue in cheeck, I really do not have the patience to stand such comments at the moment, so unless you have a viable response or an excuse, I am not sure I'll bother with your next post.

badgeraddict
06-09-2007, 09:22
I think the subject should probably be droppped or closed, before we all end up killing each other, virtually of course.

PEACE!

Kerill
06-09-2007, 10:36
Well its a good try by Dayhan to think of something new, although the rules development forum would be the best place. Not a big fan of these berserkers but I do like the idea of cultists or the like.

@Neknoh I hope your life gets better mate

badgeraddict
06-09-2007, 10:42
Well its a good try by Dayhan to think of something new

Yes! Rock on!

Dayhan
06-09-2007, 10:58
Well thanks all for the feed back. Think all that needs to be said has. Let it die now.............

Neknoh
06-09-2007, 11:30
You can lock it in "Thread tools" at the top right corner of the screen Day

Gazak Blacktoof
06-09-2007, 11:30
I think you need to be less defencive when people jump all over you. Its not very nice and some of the posters in this thread should know better but try not to react so badly or take it personally.

As to the idea I think you just need to take on board what some people have mentioned as being general guides to the way warhammer rules are created.

Try to use existing rules where possible. If you want a unit that is better on the charge there's no need to make up special rules there already a host of them available.

As examples
+D6" charge
give them flails
large models (which these aren't) cause impact hits
orcs have choppas which grant +1 strength in the first round of combat

The fleeing through a friendly unit idea isn't a bad one either why not look at the chariot rules.

If you want them to be a more aggressive form of spawn then why not even use spawn type random movement it would also make them significantly different from flagellants.


I think chaos need a unit like this its the perfect way for people to use their flayerkin models or create conversions of weres etc. Chaos needs more chaos and a unit of skirmishing crazies (for whatever reason) fit the bill.

Try posting an altered version on the rules development forum and see what reaction you get. Its also better to try your own ideas out yourself to see if they work and are reasonably will balanced, if your gaming group doesn't like new ideas then I'm sorry to say but you might be wasting your time as other people are far less likely to try your ideas than you are.

One last point, models that are unfeeling, crazy etc generally have an increased toughness rather than a lowered toughness.

Dayhan
06-09-2007, 11:47
Thxs for the advice Gazak