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Sojourner
05-09-2007, 12:09
We all know the character regiments of the Imperial Guard very well - Elysian Drop Troops and so on. My question is this: Are we likely to see 'vanilla' versions of these in the fluff; Elysian guardsmen who are not Drop Troops, and so on? If so, what would they look like? Would they too use local equipment or be outfitted with, say, kit shipped in from Cadia? The old fluff implied that regiments not from modern worlds with appropriate technology would often be retrained and re-equipped en-route - this might be like sticking flak armour and an M-16 on a feudal serf, but they fare better than they would with their spears.

So, how would you picture 'generic' Regular Infantry?

Colonel Myrymma
05-09-2007, 15:21
I picture the generic ground pounder as fitting of his or her world. If it's a fuedal world i picture serfs, yeomen and nobles armed with mostly blades and bows with a smattering of tech on the rankers.
On a high tech world i picture each trooper well armed and armored with large amounts of tanks, artillary and walker support ready.

superknijn
05-09-2007, 15:35
Well, Cadian type gear is not all shipped from Cadia (or the nearby Forge World of Kantrael), it's a quite common type of gear, used widely in the Imperium because it's, well, what the Cadian Shocktroopers wear, and those chaps have resisted about 13 Black Crusades so far.

SonofUltramar
05-09-2007, 16:15
The way I envision it is that most planets would raise Regiments that are adapted to use the tactics and equipment of their world but would still have a number of "regular" formations but I can't see them being that common.

Using Elysia as an example my friend has a Drop troop army (73rd) and I think that most formations would be of that type whereas my army is the 4th, a Grenadier force whose role would be far more specialised and up to Medusa V were only a force used force recon or to perform Search and Rescue Ops for downed pilots etc., would be uncommon formation but would still take the skills and equipment from their homeworld for a specialised role? So while I see Elysia producing Drop Troops and Grenadiers I don't see them having Tank Regiments and Artillery Companies?

As for more basic worlds the Tithe system means that a world has to produce a force to a given strength based upon the type of equipment and training it has received and very primitive worlds would seem like a target for large numbers of Commissars who would "educate"" them in the ways of The Imperium and doctrines of the Guard prior to shipping out, Gaunt is a good exmple of this?

RexTalon
06-09-2007, 05:29
I'm not sure I understand the question.

IG ARE generic. Cadians and Tallarn and Catachans... They all represent regular IG who are from a general type of world. Take the Tallarn, there isn't really anything special about them. They aren't equipped with some sort of super lasgun. It's a standard pattern lasgun manufactured on some world where millions of lasguns are stamped out per hour. The Tallarn trooper wears clothing and perhaps armor from his homeworld. Maybe he was enlisted from another world when the desert unit he was with came through town (ala Necropolis). Maybe he was part of another unit and got folded into a desert based unit (ala His Last Command). Either way you slice it, the standard Tallarn looking trooper IS a regular vanilla Imperial Guardsman.

It's the UNIT that makes them unique. If the unit was raised from a certain type of world where they believe in a certain type of battle doctrine, then they will be formed to fit that doctrine. That's why the IG codex has the doctrine system. It makes a unit unique. If you don't want the unit to be unique then you have that option too.

So, if your question is, "What does the average IG look like?" The answer is, he looks just like every other IG.

If you question is, "What sets the average IG apart from the above average one?" The answer is, It's unit doctrines.

Gen.Steiner
06-09-2007, 10:07
A Guardsman is clothed in the style of his/her own homeworld.

S/He is armed and armoured by the Munitorium.

If his world has a high enough manufacturing base, s/he will be supported by tanks from their own planet, if not, then s/he will be supported by a foreign tank Regiment when s/he reaches the combat zone.

Elysians are almost all Drop Troops and so almost all look just like the FW Elysians. They are the regular Elysians. Their equipment is made on Elysia and they are kitted out as they are because of the way they fight, and the way they fight comes from the geography and military history of their own world, in exactly the same way as Guardsmen from a desert-, death-, hive-, or agri-world.

Sojourner
06-09-2007, 11:12
Fair play, but suppose on the way to said warzone, the Munitorum decides that being outfitted as jungle fighters - say - is stupid for the context of the warzone and will get them mauled. In this situation you're very likely to see Catachan regiments in full body armour and helmets with heavy tanks - resprayed to fit the fact that there are no jungles on Planet Generic. Similarly on the original example, suppose Elysia is tithed for a warzone on a world where flying is nearly impossible because of wind, fog, etc. Equipping regular footsoldiers with drop gear is both expensive and rather suicidal since airmobile gear is fairly specialised. They'd also need to be retrained to fit the fact that they're no longer fighting as airborne and will probably have little experience with other styles of warfare. All of this can happen either on their homeworld or en-route if circumstances change.

Savant
06-09-2007, 11:25
Well, they use the appropriate troops for each scenario. So they don't ship Catachan regiments off to worlds with no jungles.

If they don't have a choice, and are forced to use what they have available (ie, Catachans on a Hive world), then there's hardly going to be any chance to retrain/re-equip anyway, is there? Being forced to use what's available inplies some kind of time-limit. If there was no time limit they'd just requisition the appropriate troop-types, if there is a time-limit then they don't have time to retrain what they have available.

Gen.Steiner
06-09-2007, 12:21
Fair play, but suppose on the way to said warzone, the Munitorum decides that being outfitted as jungle fighters - say - is stupid for the context of the warzone and will get them mauled.

Generally speaking this never happens, as the High Lords and their servants don't (or try very hard not to) send, say, Tallarn troops to fight on an iceball. When a cock-up DOES happen, and they do, the troops adapt when they get there - see 15 Hours for a good example.

Retraining rarely occurs and is usually supplemental and highly specific, e.g. the Tanith getting rappelling training for the Phantine assaults.

You are, in essence, making the mistake of thinking that the Munitorium and the Guard give a rat's **** about their soldiers. :p

Supremearchmarshal
06-09-2007, 14:49
You are, in essence, making the mistake of thinking that the Munitorium and the Guard give a rat's **** about their soldiers. :p

I do remember fluff which said sometimes IG armies are completely destroyed by fusion bombing after facing certain Chaos armies to prevent their corruption. And about soldiers arriving years late to a certain world because of bureaucratic errors. There also was a bit in WD where a Catachan squad go attached to another army and no-one knows why or remembers when...


Anyway, I believe that it is important to differentiate between a world's IG and PDF forces. After all, IG are equipped and trained to some Imperial standard (I don't mean all IG follow one scheme, but rather that the Imperium has schemes for say 1) desert world regiments, 2) shock troops, 3) cityfight regiments etc.). After all, the IG codexes offer many colour scheme and other minor variations to the basic Cadian model, as well as a few for Tallarn and Valhallan. So IMO there are many regiments that look and fight similar to, say, the Tallarn, but the Tallarn are the most famous of these.

On the other hand PDF are not expected to leave their planet, and so are much more individualised - equipped and trained according to the standards of their own world (so medieval world guardsmen would probably use low-tech equipment, with the best of them undertaking courses to adapt them to technology and make them IG).

Gen.Steiner
06-09-2007, 19:03
Anyway, I believe that it is important to differentiate between a world's IG and PDF forces. After all, IG are equipped and trained to some Imperial standard ...

I quite agree, however, the important thing to the Imperium is that a Kantrael Pattern Lasgun (Short) has near enough the same effect as a Cadian Pattern Lascarbine which, in turn, does roughly the same as a Mars Pattern Lasrifle ... etc.

Essentially, however, it is a mistake to think that just because Codex: Guard shows Tallarn figures in lots of different camouflage schemes and uniforms (for example), that all Guard desert regiments wear Tallarn style gear.

They don't.

A Vitrian's carapace armour, which has two modes, is substantially different to the Jantine Patrician's or the Volpone 10th Brigade's carapace armour. Equally, a Kasrkin looks different again to the carapace of the Schola Progenium Stormtroopers, who are different to the Grenadiers of, say, Krieg. All of these are heavy infantry - Carapace Armour Guard - and all of them hail from different worlds. They look different, but, crucially, fulfil the same role.

THIS is the key to the misunderstanding: the Guard has TYPES of Regiment; Tank, Drop, Artillery, Heavy Inf, Light Inf, Stealth/Special Operations, etc and THAT is what they use when working out who to bring along to a warzone.

It makes no difference to the Lords General that a Darendaran Mechanised Infantryman wears khaki with a sidecap and jackboots while a Cadian Mechanised Infantryman wears camouflage with a helmet and marching boots, for they are both Mech Inf and that is what counts.

Thus, the 'generic' Guardsman is every Guardsman. That's the whole point of the Guard - interchangeability. :)

Supremearchmarshal
07-09-2007, 09:36
Ok, good point. Though, as seen in the examples you have given, some standardisation has taken place, since they all do wield some sort of lasgun (autoguns are rare, while bolters are definately out - regardless of the world's ability to produce them) and wear some sort of flak or carapace armour (i.e. no mesh or power).

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 09:49
Oh indeed, I'm not for a minute saying that there's no standardisation, simply that it's not as prolific as you suggested. Standardisation is vital for any army, particularly one as vast as the Guard, so as a result they use lasrifles and wear flak or carapace armour, and drive around in Chimeras and are supported by Leman Russes. But the style of those weapons, armour, and vehicles differs from world to world and probably from factory to factory. :)

Sojourner
07-09-2007, 12:27
just because Codex: Guard shows Tallarn figures in lots of different camouflage schemes and uniforms (for example), that all Guard desert regiments wear Tallarn style gear.

And what I'm saying is that not all Tallarns necessarily wear desert gear. If a large number of Tallarns end up on a cold world - or even are redeployed from their original zone to another part with a different climate - they are going to need some cold weather gear, no question. So; would they be likely to have this in stores at the Divisional level, or would they have to get an emergency requisition in for half a million fur coats?

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 18:19
And what I'm saying is that not all Tallarns necessarily wear desert gear ... would they be likely to have this in stores at the Divisional level, or would they have to get an emergency requisition in for half a million fur coats?

They would have to beg, borrow or steal them. If it was a planned movement on the part of the High Command then the Munitorium would probably provide equipment - however as the Guard Command and Munitorium tend not to send units like the Tallarn to places where they need re-equipping it very rarely happens.

As a result, when it does, almost always by cock-up, the soldiers in question act much like the Whermacht in December '41 on the Eastern Front: they steal, improvise, borrow, and beg the required kit.

I repeat: the Munitorium and Guard Command does not care about the comfort of the trooper, merely about the success of the action. Thus, they try very hard to deploy troop type X to situation X and not type A to situation Z. Sometimes it happens, in which case... c'est la vie, make do and mend.

Slightly off topic, but it's questionable as to whether or not the Guard Division even exists... ;)

Sojourner
07-09-2007, 18:46
Hmm. I'm not especially keen on the restrictiveness of that arrangement, myself. I just think it'd be cooler - and more coherent logically - if there was some effort at flexible standardisation and an overall more complete framework for raising and equipping Imperial Guard troops - like the days of the Imperial Army where everything was standardised. You'd hope that a grand organisation like that would have a legacy even ten thousand years hence.

In other words, if Tallarn is the only world eligible for tithing for a warzone nearby, then Tallarn is going to have to pull its thumb out of its **** and stump up for the appropriate logistics. It's actually slightly belittling to suggest that a productive Imperial world can't handle something like that, in fact. I basically subscribe to the idea that 'unavoidable' situations will happen more often than not - and as such the 'famous' regiments are likely to be exceptional and while most of the soldiery of a given world will share some characteristics, not all Tallarns are going to be Lawrence of Arabia with no concept of operating any other way - not all Atillans ride horses into battle, not all Elysians come out of the back of a Valkyrie, and so on. Those regiments who do show such extreme specialisations are notable because they're superb at what they do.

Besides, I think it would be cool to see Elysian armour on the field, just for novelty's sake.

Lord Cook
07-09-2007, 19:02
Slightly off topic, but it's questionable as to whether or not the Guard Division even exists... ;)

Yes that comes up a lot. In the context of real world warfare, higher level organisational structures (such as brigades, divisions, corps, etc.) are paramount, but in the 40k universe such structures would be compromised by the necessity of being able to fit one entire self maintaining unit onto a single transport ship. Should vessels be lost in the warp (not uncommon) it's vital that that doesn't hamstring an entire division-sized formation because they've just lost ALL of their (for example) anti-tank guns on that one ship.

I think this is why regiments are such a key part of the guard. Senior military commanders seem to be attached to lead an AdHoc group of regiments, with the command staff of the overall leader being entirely self contained (with all necessary advisors, communications, etc.) This allows a sort of pick-and-mix affair, with no regiment relying in particular on any other to function, beyond normal cooperation when they're actually in action.

The only time I've ever heard of larger formations being used is in huge, extended land campaigns confined to one world, such as Cadia during the 13thBC. Operation Chrysos (WD308 - Creed's counter attack against the chaos invaders) talks about 'army groups' which are clearly much larger formations than just simple regiments.

SonofUltramar
07-09-2007, 19:07
Sorry Sojourner but I think that you underestimate the vastness of The Imperium. Using your example of Tallarn, there may be a major warzone nearby where additional forces will be needed at relatively short notice and Tallarn will be called upon to send troops, after all they do have vast Tank Armies and large numbers of Guardsmen. The training they receive may very well be standardised but if The Imperium needs to send 40 Regiments to a warzone of which only 10 can be provided from Tallarns "pool" of standard Regiments (as represented by forces not using Doctrines for instance) as the remainder are trained as Light Infantry or Mechanised Troops they wouldn't retrain them and re-equip them they would simply draw the remaining Regiments from the next closet world and the next and the next and so on until the quota had been met. The specially trained and equiped units would then be deployed as needed so some Light Infantry and Mechanised Troops may very well be called upon at the same time?

The Munitorum has a very large pool to draw from and the kind of re-training you are talking about just isn't neccessary as it would kind of defeat the purpose of the Tithe system and would require the redistibution of vast amount of supplies (such as the fur coats you mentioned) from a supply depot which could take weeks or even months to arrive so they would instead just send a Regiment who was equiped for the task in hand at the outset and leave the ill equiped Regiment to fight a holding action in a warzone they are trained to fight in?

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 19:12
...not all Tallarns are going to be Lawrence of Arabia with no concept of operating any other way - not all Atillans ride horses into battle, not all Elysians come out of the back of a Valkyrie, and so on.

Ahyuk!

They don't. Never said they do. Elysians tend to supply more Drop Troop regiments than anything else because of prevailing conditions on Elysia. This does not mean that they have no Tank regiments or Heavy Infantry, just that they have a lot less raised per tithe, e.g. almost never. Same goes for everyone else, the Tanith for example had a Tank regiment and two Light Infantry regiments raised in their first founding. ;)

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-09-2007, 19:13
But I think the point is, the 'exceptional' regiments are only exceptional because they as a general rule do something different than your average generic regiment.
So Tallarn regiments would indeed all be equipped and trained for desert fighting, because that's what they do.

Of course, they could find themselves assigned to say a Cold Weather zone, in that case they would be out of luck. I can't imagine they have divisional cold weather gear or anything of that sort.

I think it would be easier to call in a different regiment, than it would be to retrain an existing regiment if there are specialised needs. So Elysian armour would be unlikely if there are no terrain for Elysian armour on there homeworld.

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 19:26
...it would be easier to call in a different regiment, than it would be to retrain an existing regiment if there are specialised needs.

Yes, exactly! Sometimes, however, that different regiment is also from a 'famous' world; e.g. Elysian Tank or Attillan Infantry.

Sojourner
07-09-2007, 19:26
Fair points all round, I suppose.

However, there's one more gambit. It's entirely reasonable to say that some, maybe many, worlds make a point of deliberately equipping their PDF for a wide variety of situations, in the interests of keeping them alive. Just because the Imperium doesn't care, doesn't mean the local government is similarly callous. You might see a large force from Planet Generic - who are very sought after because of how good they are - but prove a major headache for the war planners because they insist on carting around a vast amount of equipment with them, and seem dedicated to acquiring more. One can imagine that when regiments are tithed, part of the paperwork involves estimating how much gear they use and thus how much stowage they're going to need. Fiddling the numbers so that a given raising gains more dedicated transport space than it rightly deserves might get you into trouble, but it could definitely get overlooked and result in some well-heeled regiments turning up t a warzone with everything but the kitchen sink, much to the chagrin of the Navy who are lumbered with a ship full of Playstations and beer...

Gen.Steiner
07-09-2007, 19:36
Fair points all round, I suppose.

However, there's one more gambit. It's entirely reasonable to say that some, maybe many, worlds make a point of deliberately equipping their PDF for a wide variety of situations, in the interests of keeping them alive.

Certainly, but the PDF are not the Guard. ;) The Guard from Generic will be kitted out with whatever they get given when they leave their muster, e.g. locally made equipment and weapons (or from nearby at any rate).

If they wish to try and fit all of that extra stuff onto a ship that won't fit it...

...that's their problem.

On the other hand, this is 40K, I'm certain that at least a few regiments are equipped for fighting in everything from a swamp to a mountain, but they'll be very few and very far between.

One that does spring to mind, of course, are the Stormtrooper Regiments!

Lord Cook
07-09-2007, 20:31
the Tanith for example had a Tank regiment and two Light Infantry regiments raised in their first founding. ;)

Are you sure? I thought the Tanith just had 3 infantry regiments upon first founding. I don't remember anything about armour.


On the other hand, this is 40K, I'm certain that at least a few regiments are equipped for fighting in everything from a swamp to a mountain, but they'll be very few and very far between.

I got the impression that the older, more prestigious regiments (such as the Volpone or the Jantine) would probably have access to more and better equipment, and more leeway given by the Navy for their transportation. If you're the Captain of Navy bulk transport #whatever and you get a bunch of fresh recruits from some backwater world, you're not going to appreciate them trying to lug aboard 3 different sets of equipment and supplies for all occasions. But if you were to get the Jantine, Cadian 8th, Valhallan 301st, etc. with battle honours stretching back millenia, wouldn't you be more inclined to make room?

Tehkonrad
08-09-2007, 00:54
true very true

Supremearchmarshal
08-09-2007, 13:37
The only time I've ever heard of larger formations being used is in huge, extended land campaigns confined to one world, such as Cadia during the 13thBC. Operation Chrysos (WD308 - Creed's counter attack against the chaos invaders) talks about 'army groups' which are clearly much larger formations than just simple regiments.

Imperial Guard armies also appear in the old GW boardgames - Battle for Armageddon and Horus Heresy (though the newer background of 40k has retconned the second to be simply Imperial Army instead of Guard).

Sojourner
08-09-2007, 13:44
The Macharian Crusade had, IIRC, six Army Groups. These aren't the same as Army Groups a la WWII on Earth, since Imperial Guard Army Groups are vast. A single Army Group could occupy several systems at once, and probably fight a full scale war over at least two simultaneously. The only world in that Crusade for which an Army Group was not sufficient was Adrantis Five - which managed to hold off the full might of the Crusade for two years before being wiped out.

Another bit of GW contradiction, it sounds like. Perhaps an Army group and an Army Group (capitalised) refer to different things, the former being more than one field Army fighting on the ground, and an Army Group being the level of hierarchy above the Field Army and containing very many of these.

satormortis
08-09-2007, 19:43
An army group simply refers to a large (temporary) formation that acts under a single commander. On a planet it may only include a number of guard regiments, while in a major crusade an army group may include Navy elements, space marines, titan legions, etc. There is no set size, but as an Army Group is made up of several Armies, it's always pretty big.
That said, 'Army' and 'Army Group' are pretty much interchangable in this regard. For example, Warmaster Macaroth (Sabbat World Crusade) split his Crusade into Crusade First Army through Crusade Ninth Army, while Lord Solar Macharius split his into seven Army Groups. Of course, Macharius' Crusade was far larger, but in both cases the formations were easily large enough to be called either Armies or Army Groups.

Gen.Steiner
09-09-2007, 20:47
Are you sure? I thought the Tanith just had 3 infantry regiments upon first founding. I don't remember anything about armour.

Curses! Now I'm doubting my memory. I'm fairly sure they did, and that they couldn't load them in time ... but that might just've been my head? :confused: Bum. Anyone be arsed to check, or shall we just take my word for it? :angel:

Lord Cook
10-09-2007, 00:59
Anyone be arsed to check, or shall we just take my word for it? :angel:

I'm truly disappointed Gen.Steiner - as if I would give anyone false information! ;)

This is from Wikipedia:
"The soldiers were organised into three two-thousand man regiments; the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of Tanith. A small number of artillery and armour units were also created, although they were intended for supporting roles."

I'm assuming whoever wrote it had actually checked the books first. Remember that Gaunt doesn't save the Tanith First and lose the rest, he saves parts of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and then amalgamates them into the First.

RexTalon
10-09-2007, 18:37
Sojourner, you REALLY need to read and understand the Gaunt's Ghosts series. There are many cases in which they are sent in to fight without the proper equipment and training. They train in route and send in requests to the munitorium when they get there. If the munitorium responds in time then less people die. If not...
The books really do explain a lot about the inner workings of the guard, even if you do have to suspend your disbelief about how many casualties there are.

Sojourner
10-09-2007, 19:38
Sojourner, you REALLY need to read and understand the Gaunt's Ghosts series. There are many cases in which they are sent in to fight without the proper equipment and training. They train in route and send in requests to the munitorium when they get there. If the munitorium responds in time then less people die. If not...

For crying out loud, that's what I've been saying all along.

I have read bits of GG, but not enough to know about the whole progression of the unit.

Lord Cook
10-09-2007, 23:27
As great as the Gaunt's Ghosts series is, I think the Ciaphas Cain novels give a better (more fluff accurate) view of the Guard. You can tell from reading GG that Dan Abnett isn't a hobbyist, while Sandy Mitchell (I know that's not his real name) does actually play the game.

It's all in the little details. In GG, platoons are set up more like squads, and there's no discernible structure beyond squad level (e.g. no companies).

Supremearchmarshal
11-09-2007, 08:44
Yeah, and Lasguns are commonly seen shooting on full auto, which they never could AFAIK.

satormortis
11-09-2007, 11:26
Yeah, and Lasguns are commonly seen shooting on full auto, which they never could AFAIK.

Many patterns of lasguns are capable of full auto. It's just the lower quality lasguns and certain special patterns that only have single shot.

Also, in GG it's only the tanith 1st that has no companies, all other regiments have a normal organisation. I assume the tanith are special in this regard because of their light infantry skills which means they normally operate in small independent units.

Supremearchmarshal
11-09-2007, 23:06
Many patterns of lasguns are capable of full auto. It's just the lower quality lasguns and certain special patterns that only have single shot.

You sure about this? In the old fluff they were semi-automatic and in the Inquisitor rulebook only one of three patterns has this option, while the other two are single-shot. Current IG codex doesn't say anything about it. The Imperium being so big it's very likely some rarer patterns can fire on full auto, but in Gaunt's Ghosts it seems they all can.

Lord Cook
11-09-2007, 23:42
In the old fluff they were semi-automatic

Think about what you're saying here for a moment. The term 'semi-automatic' is used to describe a gun that reloads itself after every shot, allowing each shot to be made just by pulling the trigger. This is opposed to, for example, a bolt-action rifle that would require a manual reload action for every shot.

How is this relevant to an energy weapon that does not use rounds (as in bullets) of any kind? By definition, the act of firing a lasbolt is done with an electrical signal as opposed to a physical action (the striking of the back of the bullet to ignite the propellant charge, or whatever). It would seem ridiculous to design a weapon that purposefully forces you to cut that signal (by releasing the trigger) between each shot.

Now look at me, I'm arguing functionality of a fictional weapon. :eyebrows:

Supremearchmarshal
11-09-2007, 23:52
Well it said so in the books...
Besides, doesn't the Imperium do lots of extremely illogical things like having it's finest warriors transported in cheap tin-cans while the regular army gets something produced on forge worlds?:D

Lord Cook
12-09-2007, 00:39
Oh I wasn't saying it was your fault, I'm just saying the writers weren't thinking straight. Happens too often to count. The Imperium is totally illogical at times.

I assume that SM equipment is produced on forge worlds as well, although I have no proof of this at all.

Remoah
12-09-2007, 00:57
Ok, good point. Though, as seen in the examples you have given, some standardisation has taken place, since they all do wield some sort of lasgun (autoguns are rare, while bolters are definately out - regardless of the world's ability to produce them) and wear some sort of flak or carapace armour (i.e. no mesh or power).

Actually, autoguns ARE quite common, though the las-rifle is better suited to guard, many low-tech worlds will be equipped with autoguns, if for example, they are unreachable or too ill-trained to care for lasguns, or they are simply forgotten.
Some regiments, like the ARMAGEDDON regiments, actually prefer autoguns in the fluff, because orks are more morally effected by it, and a solid slug from an autogun will do far more damage than a lasgun.

So in short, autoguns DO exist, and many worlds (especially PDF) still use and love them

Lord Cook
12-09-2007, 02:12
Lasguns do more damage than autoguns, but they cauterise the wounds due to the heat from the lasbolt, preventing bleeding. So autoguns will often prove more lethal if the enemy isn't able to reach the wounded in time to stop the bleeding.

Supremearchmarshal
12-09-2007, 10:49
Oh I wasn't saying it was your fault, I'm just saying the writers weren't thinking straight. Happens too often to count. The Imperium is totally illogical at times.

I assume that SM equipment is produced on forge worlds as well, although I have no proof of this at all.

I meant it rather ironically, but I guess we misunderstood each other, so no bad:)

Anyway, most SM equipment is produced on forge worlds, but the Rhino is one of the simplest STC designs and can be produced in any half-decent vehicle factory (though its Storm Bolter would be much more difficult to produce).

As for the Lasguns, basically their advantages are more damage, better reliability and a higher ammo capacity, while the autogun has better range, rate of fire and is better at penetrating cover. Obviously this varies greatly by pattern, too. And I'm going by some really old fluff here, so it may have been changed in the meantime...

Sojourner
12-09-2007, 11:27
Lasguns do more damage than autoguns, but they cauterise the wounds due to the heat from the lasbolt, preventing bleeding. So autoguns will often prove more lethal if the enemy isn't able to reach the wounded in time to stop the bleeding.

Which, to a human army in the real world would probably be more beneficial, since you leave them with a soldier whose wounds are crippling but not immediately life-threatening; they're therefore more likely to survive and prove a financial and public-relations nightmare 'back home'.

Gen.Steiner
13-09-2007, 09:22
I assume that SM equipment is produced on forge worlds as well, although I have no proof of this at all.

It isn't. Space Marine equipment is almost entirely made by the Chapters themselves, which is why one of the ranks in a Chapter is "Master of the Forge" and why they have Techmarines.


This is from Wikipedia:
"The soldiers were organised into three two-thousand man regiments; the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of Tanith. A small number of artillery and armour units were also created, although they were intended for supporting roles."

Aha - that explains my confusion then! Thank you. :p

Wolflord Havoc
13-09-2007, 11:57
We all know the character regiments of the Imperial Guard very well - Elysian Drop Troops and so on. My question is this: Are we likely to see 'vanilla' versions of these in the fluff; Elysian guardsmen who are not Drop Troops, and so on? If so, what would they look like? Would they too use local equipment or be outfitted with, say, kit shipped in from Cadia? The old fluff implied that regiments not from modern worlds with appropriate technology would often be retrained and re-equipped en-route - this might be like sticking flak armour and an M-16 on a feudal serf, but they fare better than they would with their spears.

So, how would you picture 'generic' Regular Infantry?

Ah this is an interesting one.

I suspect that it depends on the world from wence they came.

I mean if a raised unit came from a world that cannot produce lasguns and/or heavy weapons for example then I would suspect that they would be equipped from stores produced on a world that can. As for training I would suspect that the Munitorium would ensure that the unit would be supplied with training personnel ensuring that the unit can perform to a certain standard.

However if the unit came from a more advanced world with a glorious history of raising Guard Rgts, then it might produce everything from laces to Baneblades and the munitorium might have to do very little other than ensure that the weapons are 'standard' which brings me nicely on too the next point about lasguns.

It has been mentioned that many PDFs etc use Autoguns etc and the question has been asked about why they are not used in the Imperial Guard.

The Answer I feel is one of supply and standardisation.

Obviously if you are fighting on your home world then supplies of bullets for your 8.2mm long pattern autogun are easy to come by. But if you are fighting 250 light years away on another world then you might have a problem especially if the unit you are supporting are using Short pattern Autoguns chambering for..lets say 6.5mm bullets and your ammo dump has just taken a direct hit from a HE shell.

That is the main reason why lasguns are so useful - the powerpacks can be easily recharged and the packs themselves are usually interchangerble between different types of lasrifles (whot? Oh you already knew this). Okay there is always going to be some differences - notably the one that happened to the Ghosts on Phantine when they had been supplied with thousands of 'standard' power packs that were Mk5 power packs (which were standard for Phantine and the other off world rgts fighting alonside the Tanith/Vurvenhive men and women) while the Tanith Rifles needed a Mk3 power pack (IIRC) and had to enter combat with 2 clips per trooper. But generally speaking the ability to remove the need for mass ammo resupply and standardisation amoung the differing units of the Imperial Guard removes a large chunk of any quartermasters supply nightmare.

The same is true of the Tanks of the IG. I imagine that some worlds might have a better tank than the Leman Russ (be it faster, better armoured, better armed, in built coffe machine and sauna etc). But it would be so much scrap once it runs out of spare parts because the munitorium only carries spares for the Leman Russ and not for the XM 12 super tank produced on your home world 3000 light years away.

Also (and I do harp on I know)- someone has said that a Rgt raised for a particular type of combat - lets say a Tallarn Rgt - is not going to be sent to a Snow world. I disagree. Simply because A 'Desert' might not mean the same thing to a Tallarn as it does to the Administratum types who send them there.

Some consider the Antarctic to be a desert - it never rains and nothing grow there - right who have we got - 299th Tallarn Inf Rgt - Okay get em loaded up - Extra Equipment? - Nah it says here in the notes that they are equipped for desert combat.

I suspect that the Rgts Commanders hand book (slightly more involved than the Infantry mans Uplifting primer) has a large section dedicated to just this sort of problem.

So its desert combat is it Sir...um just what sort of a desert is it?

Lord Cook
13-09-2007, 16:23
Most of that has been mentioned already, but I think Wolflord Havoc gave a good summary. Although I will say that with such a high proportion of military technology under the control of the AdMech, the ability of normal (even civilised) worlds of being able (or more importantly - allowed) to produce their own tanks is dubious.

Gen.Steiner
13-09-2007, 16:49
Well, don't forget that the SteGs and the like are local vehicles produced for PDFs - not every planet will give up a local industry. Certainly they'll stick cogs on the doors to the factories and start taking orders from Mars tho'...

As for the point about definition of deserts. Using the example of the Tallarn, they fight in hot deserts. Sand, sand, more sand, maybe salt flats; that kind of thing. The Valhallans and their ilk handle the ice worlds. ;)