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Mortare
05-09-2007, 13:41
Sample extract is now available, the link is:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/pdf/descent-angels.pdf

SOTIRIOS
05-09-2007, 13:55
I read the extract and the history starts in Caliban before the Emperor finds Lion...

charlie_c67
05-09-2007, 14:11
Does this mean that there will be some HH books just after the end of the heresy too?

Homer S
05-09-2007, 14:57
I get the impression that they will keep writing HH books until they stop selling.

Homer

Malarick
05-09-2007, 17:25
Dan Abnett said, at Gencon UK, that his novel (Legion) takes place 2 years before the Heresy really starts - and that there is room for another Alpha Legion novel in the Heresy series.

Sons of Russ
05-09-2007, 18:03
ahhhh a book finally uncovering the Dark Angels for the traitors they really are.....:p

Any idea when this book is being released?

Mortare
05-09-2007, 18:09
Start of november, with some expected at GD. Though there has been a history (certainly in some shops Ive been to) of the books appearing when stores get them in rather than waiting for the true release date

boogle
05-09-2007, 20:15
AND it's £2.82 on pre-order on Amazon at the minute

Wyssy Wyg
05-09-2007, 20:19
Read through the excerpt. Disappointingly poorly written as usual for the Black Library. I had hoped for better for my favorite Legion with the new guy, but such is life I suppose.

Just for the record, there are entirely too many "chummy" moments among Space Marines (or those about to become Space Marines as in this case) in Black Library publications for my taste.

I got hooked on "The grim darkness of the far future", not jokester marines sharing a chuckle and an elbow nudge.

boogle
05-09-2007, 21:03
Then you're missing the point of the Heresy Novels as the Marines potryed there are shown as having more human like qualities than they do in the 41st Millenium

Sons of Russ
05-09-2007, 21:10
to be fair, most of the conversation is between to brothers.

I noticed that too cheerful tone as well, though, I'm hoping that they just picked an excerpt that was not very representative of the rest of the book.

doghouse
05-09-2007, 21:19
I was really looking forward to this but don't think I'll bother with it now.
That excerpt was badly written and corny as heck. :(

ArtificerArmour
05-09-2007, 21:25
if its at GD i'll buy it. Or beat up a child who bought it.

nagash66
05-09-2007, 21:28
When are they gonna get to te good stuff? i am talking terra and the siege which legion will the book be about?anyone?

Malarick
05-09-2007, 21:38
When are they gonna get to te good stuff? i am talking terra and the siege which legion will the book be about?anyone?

You may be waiting a LONG time for that!

The series is pretty open at the moment, and they will keep writing novels about the Heresy until run out of stuff to say and realise "ahh...right....we are at the Siege of Terra" and then Abnett and McNeill will wrestle for it.

At least that is what Dan Abnett said!

Free Spirit
05-09-2007, 21:42
It's called buildup, the better books have it, altough it doesnt always work out. Think about it, killing of characters left and right.. you get used to it. Let characters grow and then kill one of is much more dramatic. That's just one of the basic principles but you get the point. I suggest reading Hyperion and the Fall of Hyperion for some great epic stories that use buildup expertly ( yay for my favorite writer, Dan Simmons ).

The first three HH books were very good ( varying degrees of good in those 3 books ) and the finale of the third book really stirred things up.

***spoiler***


Loken's death ( still dont believe he is dead, we didnt read about him dying dammit!! ) was coming, but still a great conclusion because of all the fleshing out of the character.


***

ICEMANQ
05-09-2007, 22:07
Why do I get the very distinct feeling that one of them will turn evil?

Le Sigh. I'll still read it anyway.

charlie_c67
06-09-2007, 01:03
Erm, cos the ones left behind on caliban did?

The Judge
06-09-2007, 01:58
Didn't really like the writing at all (especially after the superb Fulgrim), but at least they're not Marines, so criticising it for that is a poor point. The length of conversation is the main problem; it's all too long and formal.

I await Legion.

LexxBomb
06-09-2007, 03:28
yer but whats the bet that as soon as it is released every body will complain quite bitterly about how they stuffed up the fluff. I can quite clearly remember people gettig very angry when the last DA novel was written and people where even protesting that the author (who I wont name) be fired. I for one loved the last book and also enjoyed all te short stories to date and if anyone does what happened before I will be VERY angry.

Anyway got mine on order and cant wait for it to ship (thats if it even ships here - I think I have 30 books waiting on back order and I ordered them before 1st printing)

SOTIRIOS
06-09-2007, 06:32
You mean Angels of Darkness by Gavin Thorpe. Probably the best novel BL has ever pubished in my opinion...

wasted
06-09-2007, 08:10
I guess there will be a book for each Legion...

Killgore
06-09-2007, 10:46
http://www.blacklibrary.com/news.asp?id=406


Battle for the Abyss - the new Horus Heresy novel by Ben Counter


oooooohhh

The Judge
06-09-2007, 12:13
I'm placing bets on the Blood Angels in the Sigmatus (sp?) worlds when Horus sent them into a daemon-infested collection of worlds and Sanguinius took on a couple of Greater Daemons.

Lord Malorne
06-09-2007, 12:30
i agree with the chummy thing i understand trying to make them more human but...they're NOT human. and if they wanted to do human they sgould have taken a leaf out of the ragnar book series (don't like SW but loved the books)

So is the HH gonna milk every available minute reference to a possible diversionary story!

man thats weak! and i can safely assume that the lost legions will not even be named contrary to GW hinting they will so people buy the books!

whine whine whine!

i hope ben counters book raises the bar for the series as so far i am less than impressed (don't like Abnett! haha you don't know were i live)

Wyssy Wyg
06-09-2007, 13:07
Well, it's true that they're not marines, but I guarantee you (and am willing to bet whoever) that when they become marines their characters don't change substantially at all and the two "brothers" stay jocular and chummy up until the moment one of them falls to Chaos and the other remains loyal.

In fact, I can already see it coming. The two brothers, Zahariel and Nemiel, are going to have a confrontation that foreshadows the confrontation between Luther and Jonny Boy.

ryng_sting
06-09-2007, 17:19
You mean Angels of Darkness by Gavin Thorpe. Probably the best novel BL has ever pubished in my opinion...


I wholeheartedly agree.

ObiWan
06-09-2007, 17:27
Indeed, sounds like that is what will happen between them battle brothers...

- Deathwing -
06-09-2007, 17:52
Ahhh, finally another Thread where people complain about something, like f.e. a 400+ pages book after reading 9 pages from one of the first chapters....:rolleyes:

Although Space Marines are superior to normal men, they are still human. If you want soldiers without any sort of emotion, go for Necrons. :p

I guess the familiar bond between the two reflects the familarity between Luthor and the Lion. And when it comes to the battle for Caliban, the conflict is shown by these two brothers.

Horus Rising and the following volumes already showed, that a good point to discribe a turning of events is to make a normal battle Brother or Captain the main person of the plot. If it were just about Luthor, the Lion and all the other Primarchs.... I don't think the books would be that good.

Wyssy Wyg
06-09-2007, 18:19
I'm not complaining. I'm stating the fact that the excerpt from this book is poorly written and that I am disappointed. I am giving it a negative review if you will.

I am also stating that Rick Priestly's WH40K never had space marines cracking dumb jokes and goofing off like they do in so many of the BL novels, and that Rick Priestly is the God Emperor of 40k.

Erebus26
06-09-2007, 18:25
I agree Deathwing. the portrayal of characters like Loken was excellent in the first three books. As for complaining about the book Wyssy Wyg, lets just wait until it comes out and you have read the story before offering any criticism.

To be honest though, I'm looking forward to Legion more than Descent of Angels.

- Deathwing -
06-09-2007, 18:28
I'm not complaining. I'm stating the fact that the excerpt from this book is poorly written and that I am disappointed. I am giving it a negative review if you will.

And it is competely out of the content. Perhaps this excerpt isn't that bad when you know the whole book.

And about joking Marines..... GW decides, which books are made. If they don't want a Marine cracking a joke, they would tell the author that this is crap.

In my opinion this cracking a joke or showing some emotion like the fear to fail in his duty gives the SM some character. A book where every SM functions without emotion would be boring, I think.

Wyssy Wyg
06-09-2007, 18:33
And a book where emotion is shown thusly:
His cousin's face was hidden within his helmet, but from the tone of his voice, Zahariel knew he was smiling....is a poorly written book.

I've never said that Marines shouldn't have emotions, just that they shouldn't be happy-go-lucky, comic relief, elbow nudging, mouthful spewing funny boyz.

I'm disappointed because Jonson's my dog and the Dark Angels are my homeys. This is love talkin', not hate.

- Deathwing -
06-09-2007, 18:41
Ever been under fire or in a very dangerous ( I mean that kind of danger where you're about to loose your live ) situation? or preparing for one of that?

It does make people to do stupid things like elbow nudging to cover their nervousness.

Wyssy Wyg
06-09-2007, 19:24
I bow to your superior experience on that front.

Shadow-Walker
06-09-2007, 19:49
You mean Angels of Darkness by Gavin Thorpe. Probably the best novel BL has ever pubished in my opinion...

I disagree. A lot. Gav Thorpe seems to write almost everyone like they were followers of chaos.

Shadow-Walker
06-09-2007, 19:53
But regarding Descent of Angels, I'm looking forward to it. The Horus Heresy books so far have been supurb, and I've got no problem with the idea of space marines having a sense of humour. It makes them more realistic. Well, as much as biologically altered super solders CAN be realistic, anyway.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
06-09-2007, 20:43
As a counter point to some of the nay-sayers out there this is actually well written. Humans are chummy, soldiers do goof off or they'd crack under the pressure of the knowledge that any moment they may die. These guys aren't Space Marines any way but regular humans in pre imperium power armour.

I actually am going to go out and buy this on the strength of the excerpt. I haven't even read any of the earlier books yet.

(as a writer I have to say that it's not an easy thing to write a novel and it is especially difficult when readers have certain expectations. When I eventually get my own stuff published I might even have a crack at a GW novel if they'll let me. Though I wouldn't want to tackle a HH novel.)

Sephiroth
06-09-2007, 20:57
The two characters joking, etc however, are not Space Marines (yet). They are simply Knights of the Order. Normal humans can joke all they want.

philbrad2
06-09-2007, 21:36
AND it's £2.82 on pre-order on Amazon at the minute


And with P&P it works out more than my preorder on PLAY.COM - go figure!

PhilB
:chrome:

doghouse
06-09-2007, 21:45
And a book where emotion is shown thusly:

"His cousin's face was hidden within his helmet, but from the tone of his voice, Zahariel knew he was smiling."

...is a poorly written book.


I totally agree. :)

Kegluneq
06-09-2007, 22:02
Scanlon is an interesting author - technically speaking, his work is full of holes (his sentence construction is only slightly better than my own...) but he's close to Abnett level in making basic stories that are far more compelling than the standard Marines/Guard-kill-everything-and-cheer fare. I'll admit a standard formula seems to be falling into place a little, but I'm still buying. >_>

Edit: For a non-Imperial army, they seem to be equipped with fairly standard bolt and chain weapons...

Wyssy Wyg
07-09-2007, 02:10
"they seem to be equipped with fairly standard bolt and chain weapons..."

That's as per the fluff, though. The knights of Caliban were stated to be armed with chainswords and bolt pistols and living in an otherwise near medieval state. I suppose they're similar to the "techno-barbarians" that the ol' Empy put the smackdown on back on Old Terra.

It is a fair criticism of my comments to say that these soldiers are not marines, and that thus joking and such is acceptable. I just know, however, that they're not going to change much when they become marines. I've read too many BL Space Marine novels to have any hopes to the contrary.

I suppose I should also say that I will most definitely be buying and reading this one. I'm a Dark Angel fan, what can I say. Here's hoping the first chapter is just uncharacteristically bad or in an early form.

Belisarius
07-09-2007, 02:40
agree about the fluff, and one note to add to the earlier rant, One of the lost legions fate will be revealed according to Abnett.

Kegluneq
07-09-2007, 07:28
"they seem to be equipped with fairly standard bolt and chain weapons..."

That's as per the fluff, though. The knights of Caliban were stated to be armed with chainswords and bolt pistols and living in an otherwise near medieval state. I suppose they're similar to the "techno-barbarians" that the ol' Empy put the smackdown on back on Old Terra.

Ah, fair enough, I didn't know that. I'd assumed bolt weapons didn't come around until the time of the Emperor's creation of the Space Marines.

Edit: Something else I noticed - The Lion is quite small for a primarch, a mere two heads taller than a tall normal man...

SOTIRIOS
07-09-2007, 07:46
I disagree. A lot. Gav Thorpe seems to write almost everyone like they were followers of chaos.

Astelan was not a follower of Chaos.He was as pure as Loken or Garro. Come on, you just don't like the theory that the Lion was waiting to see who won...As a novel is superb, full of honor and treason. Superb combination! Thats why BL will re-release "Angels of Darkness" in 2008 according to the latest news in BL site!

Wyssy Wyg
07-09-2007, 12:53
"Edit: Something else I noticed - The Lion is quite small for a primarch, a mere two heads taller than a tall normal man..."

Read it again, it says that "he stands at least two heads taller than anyone else on Caliban." That means at least two heads taller than the second tallest man on the planet. Assuming a "head" is 10 inches and the second tallest man is at least 7 feet tall, that puts him comfortably in the 8.5 to 9 foot range. Pretty darn tall.

kairous
07-09-2007, 13:03
AND it's £2.82 on pre-order on Amazon at the minute

curse you, LOL, i would have posted that, had i been able to log into warseer after i ordered it, seriously though, unless you absolutely have to, who buys their novels/books from GW?

kairous
07-09-2007, 13:05
http://www.blacklibrary.com/news.asp?id=406

oooooohhh

Indeed, but what about the blood angels omnibus, i thought there was only two of those? and angels of darkness is getting a reprint:) definately picking that up, and there also reprinting/releasing storm of iron?
its all up on the BL, site anyone got anymore info on these?

Alpharius
07-09-2007, 13:44
agree about the fluff, and one note to add to the earlier rant, One of the lost legions fate will be revealed according to Abnett.

WHOA!

Seriously?

And, where did you see that information?

I need to know!

Thanks!

Marius Xerxes
07-09-2007, 13:48
I think most people should re think what the "mind set" of the HH books are. I am perfectly ok withe veryone being all chummy chum because of the time frame they are in. As Super Human as Space Marines are, and with the psochoconditioning (sp) that they recieve, id think that they are more conditioned to not let the effects of a battlefield enviroment (things that could lower morale etc) effect them. I see nothing in this time frame that would sugest they cant be personable with one another.

Gotta remember, at the timeframe of these books, humanity is pushing out in all directions, and not yet stagnated. The Emperor is alive and well, as are all Primarchs. Heck, except for those few.. no one even belives in Chaos.

I think they portray them so close knit because any traitor is going to be looked down on severly, but a traitor who is a brother to you and so many more is something far, far worse.

The Grim Darkness that is the 41st Millenium is not this age. Humanity is not beset on all sides and crumbleing from within whilest trying to hold back all the cosmic forces. There is no desperation in the cause of mankind to fight simply to survive. Man is dominating everything is sees at this point. That can vastly change ones outlook on things, even a Space Marine. (And yes I know these books are about the crumble from within.. I was just speaking of general attitude of Mankind just prior to the HH itself)

AmScipio
07-09-2007, 14:09
Not the worst writing I've read. After all, I've written the worst writing I've read.

DantesInferno
07-09-2007, 15:17
It is a fair criticism of my comments to say that these soldiers are not marines, and that thus joking and such is acceptable. I just know, however, that they're not going to change much when they become marines. I've read too many BL Space Marine novels to have any hopes to the contrary.

That's fair enough too though. Pre-Heresy Marines were not subjected to anywhere near the level of indoctrination and psychological screening that post-Heresy Marines have (which explains how people like Typhon, Erebus, Kor Phareon etc became Marines before the Heresy).

Wyssy Wyg
07-09-2007, 15:27
Okay, let me state here where I'm coming from. I got into 40k ten or so years ago because of the fluff. If you remember way back then, ten years or so means Rick Priestly was the man in charge, and Bill King wrote all the fluff boxes in the codexes and rulebooks (for example the mirror account of a battle from both the ork and space marine perspective in the 3rd ed Orks and Space Marine codexes).

Back in 2nd edition and early 3rd before all these BL monstrosities started appearing, Space Marines were grim, stalwart defenders of humanity. They were imposing, frightening, hard to relate to. There is a fluff box in one of the rulebooks (can't remember which one) where a Blood Angel thinks about his relationship to those he's sworn to protect. He keeps thinking of humanity as "them" and has to force himself to remember that he also is a human.

In the 3rd ed. SM codex, it talks about the typical marine's day. It has like 15 minutes of free time in it. The rest is training and meditation and prayer. Four hours of sleep.

Basically, in the early fluff, Space Marines were inhuman defenders of humanity. They were not understandable by the humans who looked at them with awe. They protected humans, they fought for humanity, they had once been human, but they weren't anymore.

Then BL and its stable of mediocre to bad writers comes along and we have the likes of Torgaddon the Punster in the HH books and "funny" moments and lines in all the rest, HH or 40k. If they were genuinely funny I would be more inclined to forgive it, but more often than not the moments are just dumb, unfunny, intended I suppose to elicit a groan, a bemused shake of the head, and some comment like, oh Torgaddon. You just had to go there. Chuckle chuckle chuckle.

Call me an old fart if you will, but my Space Marines aren't chuckleheads.

- Deathwing -
07-09-2007, 17:52
Ever been under fire or in a very dangerous ( I mean that kind of danger where you're about to loose your live ) situation? or preparing for one of that?

It does make people to do stupid things like elbow nudging to cover their nervousness.


I bow to your superior experience on that front.

Well, sadly I really have.

But back on topic:

I understand your point of view and I also know some of the 2nd edition fluff. Most of the time you know pretty soon, where this or that will lead ( not a too funny joke in most cases ). But I still think that characters showing some emotion ( and even if it is a not too developed sense of humor ) are better for novels than emotionless "machines".
If the BL would write that way, nearly every book would be the same ( tactics from the Codex Astartes, some orders [ take position XYZ ] and answers like "Affirmative" ).
Wasn't there even some Fluff from the 2nd Edition SW Codex where it was discribed, that they feast after and/ or before battles? Surely even there was intended, that some jokes were shared among the battle brothers.

colmarekblack
07-09-2007, 18:03
Gotta get this book. Haven't even read Fulgrim yet but never mind.

SamaNagol
07-09-2007, 23:24
We shouldnt have any problems with Marines joking between each other. Now if they were cracking jokes with civilians it would be wrong.

Alpharius
08-09-2007, 12:17
agree about the fluff, and one note to add to the earlier rant, One of the lost legions fate will be revealed according to Abnett.

Seriously... Where did you see this information?

As far as I knew, GW wasn't planning on 'officially' revealing anything about the "Lost Two".

The Warmaster
08-09-2007, 12:50
agree about the fluff, and one note to add to the earlier rant, One of the lost legions fate will be revealed according to Abnett.

AWESOMEAGE!

You'd better not be yanking my chain here.

- N.

Belisarius
08-09-2007, 14:21
WHOA!

Seriously?

And, where did you see that information?

I need to know!

Thanks!
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Pre_Heresy/index.php?showtopic=1348&st=0&#entry8948520
was in an interview with Grahm McNeil (I believe) you can find a link to the in the alpha legion site.

you have to scroll up and go through the whole interview.

Mechanicus
08-09-2007, 14:26
You might want to read the two posts here (http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14888#265975), since it adds a second perspective on the original account on the Preheresy forums, but the guy on the preheresy forums did talk to him informally as well, so it's possible they are true.

Lord Martel
08-09-2007, 21:47
Reading that excerpt was just painful. How did that pass editorial muster? I would post the poorly written parts, but I would have to copy and paste the whole vile thing.

BL, don't release that book. It will be an embarrassment to the hobby (40K) and Sci-Fi in general.

The pestilent 1
08-09-2007, 21:50
Reading that excerpt was just painful. How did that pass editorial muster? I would post the poorly written parts, but I would have to copy and paste the whole vile thing.

BL, don't release that book. It will be an embarrassment to the hobby (40K) and Sci-Fi in general.


Frankly, compared to books I have read, the entirety of "Modern" Science fiction is an embarrassment to Sci-Fi.
But then again it doesn't take itself all that seriously, and I have no expectations of Nonbaryonic life forms waging a Age-long war against matter, so I can be happy with 40K for what it is.

A bit of *******' fun. :eyebrows:

Beast Rabban
08-09-2007, 22:08
God,

Famous Five 40k.
I'll go back to Cain.

Eldarion
09-09-2007, 15:10
Any idea how many Horus Heracy books thier are going to be? Maybe 18? as thiers 18 known Primarchs. Just a thought:angel:

Orthodox
09-09-2007, 16:57
don't read that book
fixed

The first line of dialogue made me ill, and Knights of Lupus? noooo kidding. ugh


I'll go back to Cain.
a man of refined plebian tastes

Alpharius
09-09-2007, 18:08
Good lord!

Let's hope some of the rumored "revelations" about the Emperor turn out to be just that - rumors!

Ugh!

IMHO, that would be a horrible direction to take, and really cheapen the ultimate tragedy that is the Emperor's fate...

gitburna
10-09-2007, 18:07
Okay, let me state here where I'm coming from. I got into 40k ten or so years ago because of the fluff. If you remember way back then, ten years or so means Rick Priestly was the man in charge, and Bill King wrote all the fluff boxes in the codexes and rulebooks (for example the mirror account of a battle from both the ork and space marine perspective in the 3rd ed Orks and Space Marine codexes).

Bill king did stuff for 2nd edition. Theres a complete shift in tone between the 2nd edition and 3rd edition stuff, for the good IMO. As far as i know, his input for 3rd edition goes as far as a page in the space wolves codex and a few novels for Space Wolves [and a "fairly average" Eldar novel as well] at the same time. Neither the Marine or Ork codexes of 1998/9 mention Bill Kings name at all. I've been playing for a long time too and the change between 2nd and 3rd edition was far more than just a set of rules changes. 3rd edition made the 40k setting a bleaker more gothic place.



Then BL and its stable of mediocre to bad writers comes along and we have the likes of Torgaddon the Punster in the HH books and "funny" moments and lines in all the rest, HH or 40k. If they were genuinely funny I would be more inclined to forgive it, but more often than not the moments are just dumb, unfunny, intended I suppose to elicit a groan, a bemused shake of the head, and some comment like, oh Torgaddon. You just had to go there. Chuckle chuckle chuckle.

Call me an old fart if you will, but my Space Marines aren't chuckleheads.

While i will agree that much of the BL portfolio is fairly average, there are quite a few good authors. You seem to be missing the point though, that the dour chapters of M30 are legions like the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Death Guard and so on. In M40, 2/3 of all space marines come from either the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists gene stock [if the numbers of Black Templars are true] The Space Wolves, Luna Wolves etc etc are regarded as uncouth barbarians by many of the other legions of the 30th millenium. The marines of M30 are far more human than those of M40, who have a whole new set of purity issues to deal with after the events of the horus heresy.

Besides which, The Horus Heresy wouldnt have occurred if the Space Marines and Primarchs didnt have personality. Everyone would just have followed orders and that would have been that.

To sum up then, the entire current HH series gets a big thumbs up from me, it highlights just what a different time it all was. I will buy Descent of Angels because it will be a good partner for Angels of Darkness and 15 Hours, both of which i already own. What i do hope that this novel avoids though is simply another reteling of the HH story but "the characters have different names" eg substituting this Zachariel for Loken/Garro/Saul Tarvitz etc etc and only he upholds the honour of the chapter... THAT would be a travesty

Wyssy Wyg
10-09-2007, 23:40
If I have anywhere said that Space Marines shouldn't have personalities or emotions, I humbly beg forgiveness. Whatever the case, I do remember saying that they should display emotion. But I shall reiterate that if a Space Marine makes a joke, it should be a better one than the average 12 year old could swill up.

Space Wolves, of course, have always been the weak point in my argument. Leman Russ has been mentioned as fond of drink and laughter in official IA articles and the like. Space Wolves joking and laughing -- as long as its not juvenile -- I have no problem with. But it always has been juvenile in my experience, thus I'd just prefer to see the writers stay away from that stuff altogether.

As for the 30th Millennium being all that different temperament wise, well, that's just conjecture and it still doesn't explain the **** poor sense of humor Marines tend to display in most non-HH books as well.

Finally, I disagree about 3rd making the fluff darker. It did do away with much of the dark humor of the game, but in 2nd ed fluff (have you read Codex: Imperialis?) humanity is losing, and there is no hope. None. Any perceived hope becomes a false hope under the microscope. 3rd and 4th have replaced much of that previous despair with slight hopes and desperate chances.

To sum it up, the "feel" of the 2nd and early 3rd editions was one of, to coin a phrase perhaps, "Gothic Horror". Late 3rd and 4th feel to me more like "Gothic Heroic".

Son of the Lion
11-09-2007, 07:21
yer but whats the bet that as soon as it is released every body will complain quite bitterly about how they stuffed up the fluff. I can quite clearly remember people gettig very angry when the last DA novel was written and people where even protesting that the author (who I wont name) be fired. I for one loved the last book and also enjoyed all te short stories to date and if anyone does what happened before I will be VERY angry.

Anyway got mine on order and cant wait for it to ship (thats if it even ships here - I think I have 30 books waiting on back order and I ordered them before 1st printing)


Really? When I was last in Adelaide the Dymock's there had a really wide selection of Black Library stuff.

And there's going to be some griping about the background changes because well, there always is. And since the Dark Angels Heresy era story line has already been butchered and vague hints about El'Johnson's loyalty being brought into question made, I think it might even be a bit justified this time.

The Dude
11-09-2007, 07:25
Really? When I was last in Adelaide the Dymock's there had a really wide selection of Black Library stuff.

They certainly do. Borders and Angus and Robertson do too, and they're all within walking distance, so if one doesn't have what you want, it's not that hard to check out the others.

The hardest part is picking your way through the Emos out the front of Borders ;)

Son of the Lion
11-09-2007, 07:52
The hardest part is picking your way through the Emos out the front of Borders ;)

Yeah, I wasn't very good at that. I always seemed to accidentally kick one or two on the way through.




On topic, I just read the extract all the way through - it really is awful. I thought the writing in Fulgrim was bad, but I found the plot interesting enough to compensate (Although the 'Highlander' bit at the end made me put it down for a couple of hours until the feeling of profound distaste had passed). I don't think all the subtly woven storyline in the world could convince me to sit through another two or three hundred pages of sentences like:

"The Lion has issued instructions that we should blacken our
surplices so we will not present as much of a target for the enemy gunners when the assault begins."

or

'“If you die, Lion, then I die with you.” That’s what Luther
said.’

I'm not flaming this for fun, I really am genuinely disappointed - the other HH books have been rather good by BL pulp fiction standards.

- Deathwing -
11-09-2007, 08:58
"The Lion has issued instructions that we should blacken our
surplices so we will not present as much of a target for the enemy gunners when the assault begins."

Isn't that some standard battle technique? Even in the book Sons of Fenris, the Dark Angels blackened their robes so they won't be spotted.




'“If you die, Lion, then I die with you.” That’s what Luther
said.’

Don't forget that "back then" the Lion and Luthor were close friends. Only when the Lion left Caliban, Luthor began his treachery. And as stated in the excerpt: It's just something that someone heard from someone who heard it from someone...


And about the humor of a twelve year old guy: The training begins very early ( what are they, about 10 years old?) Even if they grow up to manhood, they have no more social contacts besides their battlebrothers and people they kill. so I guess they really can't develop an adult form of humor.

And finally to all ranting people: Nobody forces you to read the book. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or, if you're talented: Write a novel yourself and see, if the BL will publish it instead of another Abnett story....

The Dude
11-09-2007, 10:08
Yeah, I wasn't very good at that. I always seemed to accidentally kick one or two on the way through.

I thought you said you weren't very good at it :confused:;)

Wyssy Wyg
11-09-2007, 15:17
And about the humor of a twelve year old guy: The training begins very early ( what are they, about 10 years old?) Even if they grow up to manhood, they have no more social contacts besides their battlebrothers and people they kill. so I guess they really can't develop an adult form of humor.So, uh, you'd have me believe that Space Marines have reached only the emotional and intellectual maturity of a ten year old child? Good Lord, I certainly hope you're wrong...

As for Son of the Lion's comments, he's saying that those excerpts are poorly and awkwardly written. He is not commenting on the content.

ryng_sting
11-09-2007, 18:13
Just read the Abnett link.

I have to say I hope the line apparently being considered (it's not set in stone) for the Emperor isn't taken, is just one among many to be considered and eventually discarded.

Now, anyone who knows my posts here knows I'm generally supportive of BL authors and all their hard work, and am the last person to go for knee-jerk reactions. But I'd be a liar if I said I liked it even one little bit.

Kegluneq
11-09-2007, 22:20
So, uh, you'd have me believe that Space Marines have reached only the emotional and intellectual maturity of a ten year old child? Good Lord, I certainly hope you're wrong...
I actually quite like that description of the Space Marines, as basically angry adolescents given superhuman adult form. I'm sure that description has a fluff basis, I just cannot recall it for the life of me.

As for Son of the Lion's comments, he's saying that those excerpts are poorly and awkwardly written. He is not commenting on the content.
They're not that bad, although they are a little ungainly - 15 Hours was exactly the same but it's still a good story. As for the opening of this book, I don't think it's any worse than that of Fulgrim, or any other BL Space Marine book that begins with an action sequence.

Zanzibarthefirst
11-09-2007, 22:52
the first couple of pages is poorly written and corny It seemslike its suppose to be in a chroniclistic form. The last part from "The reality was, of course, somewhat different" is rather promising

Son of the Lion
11-09-2007, 23:12
They're not that bad, although they are a little ungainly - 15 Hours was exactly the same but it's still a good story. As for the opening of this book, I don't think it's any worse than that of Fulgrim, or any other BL Space Marine book that begins with an action sequence.

I was indeed talking about the lumbering and frankly painful prose. And I thoroughly disagree that this is no worse than any other Space Marine opening. Deus Encarmine starts off with an excellent battle scene (even if it does go horribly downhill later on). I do take the point that Marines are hard to accurately portray without resorting to cliche, but Abnett and McNeil et al did ok.
Fulgrim, as I pointed out, was pretty clunky but it was only a smattering of lines that really made me wince - the entire Descent of Angels excerpt was so ungainly I was genuinely unable to follow the story. If the general opinion in reviews / comments is that the book does pick up somewhat after the first section, I might chance my arm and buy it. Assuming the Author doesn't do anything stupid with the character of the Lion of course.

Kegluneq
12-09-2007, 08:00
the entire Descent of Angels excerpt was so ungainly I was genuinely unable to follow the story.
Now I just think you're being ridiculous. What did you not understand?

I honestly don't see what's so bad about it. Yes, the sentences are clunky, but they don't obfuscate what's actually happening. And the dialogue really is no worse than that in the entire Ultramarines Omnibus.

LexxBomb
12-09-2007, 12:53
I find it interesting that no one has spoken about the minor DA fluff in the very old and venerable book "Into the malestorm".

that one had a fallen angel and a loyal angel being forced into falling

Kegluneq
12-09-2007, 14:50
Wasn't that the one that first suggested the Lion was still alive, deep in the heart of the Rock? It was an excellent book as I recall.

Edit: I'm thinking of Eye of Terror, d'oh.

Son of the Lion
12-09-2007, 15:36
Now I just think you're being ridiculous. What did you not understand?

I honestly don't see what's so bad about it. Yes, the sentences are clunky, but they don't obfuscate what's actually happening. And the dialogue really is no worse than that in the entire Ultramarines Omnibus.

Again I disagree. The Ultramarines series had it's shaky moments, but the writing was generally (particularly in Dead Sky, Black Sun) of a sufficient standard to allow the reader to concentrate on the action without wincing at clumsy dialogue and a complete disregard for the rule of 'Show, don't tell' in it's narrative technique.


Which brings me to my so called absurdity - I never implied that the poor quality of writing rendered the text incoherent, merely that I was so appalled by the broken and frankly immature prose that I struggle to concentrate on the story being told. And I stand by that. As I said before, this may simply be a bad start to what will be a relatively decent novel - but since these excerpts are specifically selected to encourage you to read on, I suspect that the standard continues throughout the book.






I find it interesting that no one has spoken about the minor DA fluff in the very old and venerable book "Into the malestorm".

that one had a fallen angel and a loyal angel being forced into falling

Yes, it's an interesting take on the 'blind' persecution of the Fallen by the 'loyalist' Dark Angels.

Kegluneq
12-09-2007, 20:18
Again I disagree. The Ultramarines series had it's shaky moments, but the writing was generally (particularly in Dead Sky, Black Sun) of a sufficient standard to allow the reader to concentrate on the action without wincing at clumsy dialogue and a complete disregard for the rule of 'Show, don't tell' in it's narrative technique. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Marine dialogue has always had a bad history of being forced and unrealistic ("Greetings, brother! Too long it has been since we last tasted fire and blood on the field of battle! Ave Imperator!"), especially in the Horus Heresy series. I don't see anything especially awful in this excerpt (and it's still better than the pisspoor opening of Fulgrim).

May I ask if you've read 15 Hours at all? Although it's a similar demonstration of poor writing skills on the part of the author, he still managed to produce one of the most loved works of BL fiction. I'd also rate him as one of the more realistic writers of dialogue, although that's clearly a subjective viewpoint.

Son of the Lion
12-09-2007, 23:17
Actually no. I noticed a lot of positive things being said about it a while back, but I flicked through it and it didn't grab me so I put it down and bought Ravenor instead. If it's one that has to be persevered with then I'll give it a second chance - I generally prefer novels that either ignore the astartes or reduce them to background or supporting characters, as it does appear to be rather difficult to portray them as the central protagonists without resorting to cliche dialogue and repetition of certain phrases.
I agree with you about the beginning of Fulgrim being terrible (though I still think this is at least on a par, if not worse). As I said before - it may have a story that bears out the many narrative faults, I'm just not optimistic. To be honest, the only reason I didn't pan Fulgrim completely is because it at least utilised a bit of character interaction, and it was a bit seedier and darker than some recent 40k books.

Kegluneq
13-09-2007, 06:54
To be honest, the only reason I didn't pan Fulgrim completely is because it at least utilised a bit of character interaction, and it was a bit seedier and darker than some recent 40k books.
If that's the case, then you should definitely get something out of 15 Hours - it's possibly the darkest BL book ever published, and its characterisation is extremely strong. It's closer to All Quiet On The Western Front than the usual BL war porn. And it doesn't, I believe, feature any Space Marines at all, just Imperial Guard and orks in a war of meat-grinding attrition.

BlackLegion
28-09-2007, 17:25
Wallpaper of the cover art is online:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/freestuff/2007-images/descent-angels-med.jpg

Adra
28-09-2007, 17:47
just had a read of decent of angels. good read actually. better than i figured but i think the author did a good job. wont spoil it anymore for ya. read faster dammit!!! ;)

Brimstone
28-09-2007, 18:30
Just finished the book, it's not bad but not as good as the previous ones IMO, still worth a read though and a lot better than fifteen hours (the authors previous book).

Anyway how about
Zahariel = Cypher ?

xNickBaranx
28-09-2007, 19:48
Just finished the book, it's not bad but not as good as the previous ones IMO, still worth a read though and a lot better than fifteen hours (the authors previous book).

15 Hours is one of my favorite 40K books. It captures the grim future more than most. The preview chapter of Descent was slightly disappointing. I hope it is better than the preview let on.

Which I'm only on Flight of the Eisenstein right now and its not nearly as good as the previous 3 books.

Part of me wishes that all of these books were just rough drafts that would be rewritten a decade from now the same way all of the Codex fluff gets refined gradually over time. There are some great ideas and some tense moments and other parts where you are scratching your head wondering "what was the author thinking?"

The fact that each Astartes Chapter has 2 battle brothers who are pulled apart from eachother is kind of cheesy. I understand that brothers torn apart is a central theme but each other really needed to come up with increasingly more creative ways to portray it without beating us over the head with it by focusing on 2 central buddies.

Regardless, I'm excited for Descent despite my general complaints. More DA fluff is better than nothing.

Belisarius
29-09-2007, 01:42
15 hours seemed to be such a rip off of All queit on the Western Front. it was an ok book but certianly not their best. Am curious about descent of angels. i have enjoyed all the HH books thus far those the first three have been the best with the last two only being so so.

Nazguire
29-09-2007, 01:42
Just finished the book, it's not bad but not as good as the previous ones IMO, still worth a read though and a lot better than fifteen hours (the authors previous book).

Anyway how about
Zahariel = Cypher ?

I hope that it doesn't develop into that, only hint at it. Revealing Cypher's background would utterly ruin him as a character.

The Warmaster
29-09-2007, 07:29
Wallpaper of the cover art is online:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/freestuff/2007-images/descent-angels-med.jpg

There's that black armour we were looking for!

reds8n
29-09-2007, 13:03
Just finished the book, it's not bad but not as good as the previous ones IMO, still worth a read though and a lot better than fifteen hours (the authors previous book).

Anyway how about
Zahariel = Cypher ?


I liked 15 hours, but I fully agree with the rest of these sentiments.

don't click as it might be a slight spoiler

interesting name eh ? (http://www.babylon.com/definition/Zahariel%20(Brightness)/English)

MutantMaggot
29-09-2007, 14:40
Interesting theory ... I'll bear that in mind ... ;)

trigger
29-09-2007, 15:04
i am two chapters away from finishing book
there will defenatly have to be another and it is all set before horus falls from grace , but i wont spoil it to much.
its not the best but it fills alot of gaps in the da histotry :evilgrin:

Lord_Magellan
29-09-2007, 15:07
Believe me, I've read far worse.

If you want to see literally every rule of writing broken, if you want to see the most worthless slop every spilled onto an unsuspecting page, if you want to see how truly horrible and excruciating bad writing can be, pick up Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune by Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert.

Frank Herbert's six Dune books are my favorite books of all time. This sewage is so painful and poorly written and badly imagined it literally stuns me senseless every time I think about it.

That considered, I'm hard to disappoint with the Horus Heresy novels. Even if they have their less than great moments, BELIEVE ME, they're light years above this agonizing destruction of common sense put forth by those two witless hacks.

trigger
29-09-2007, 15:10
WARNING DO NOT READ UNLESS YOUR PRPARED TO LEARN ABOUT CYPHER....

Cypher is not a name its a rank he is in charge of protecting and inforcing the chapters traditions the rank is lord cypher he is selected by the chapter master or the lion and no one but them know his identety ..... So as to the charicter no one knows who he is other than posably azrahal :angel:

trigger
29-09-2007, 15:14
Just finished the book, it's not bad but not as good as the previous ones IMO, still worth a read though and a lot better than fifteen hours (the authors previous book).

Anyway how about
Zahariel = Cypher ?

good theory or even nemiel?????? a bit upset at the way things turned out

Brimstone
29-09-2007, 16:47
good theory or even nemiel?????? a bit upset at the way things turned out

I honestly thought it would be the other way round hence my suggestion.

I'm going to move this to 40K background as it's more appropriate there.

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 09:26
WARNING DO NOT READ UNLESS YOUR PRPARED TO LEARN ABOUT CYPHER....

Cypher is not a name its a rank he is in charge of protecting and inforcing the chapters traditions the rank is lord cypher he is selected by the chapter master or the lion and no one but them know his identety ..... So as to the charicter no one knows who he is other than posably azrahal :angel:

so basicly Cypher (as his name is now) could have been the the Lord Cypher a the time of the fall... therfore the current DA are hunting down the most loyal person to the primarch... what idiots. plus that can explane how the hell he managed to get the lion sword after the battle on caliban

MutantMaggot
30-09-2007, 10:06
... Most loyal man to the primarch? Horus was one of the most loyal primarchs to the Emperor, and he failed to resist temptation. (Sort of.)

SOTIRIOS
30-09-2007, 10:14
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha... Many fanatical DA will see the error of their ways... Cypher is the only hope of the DA....

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 10:14
Or he could simply be using the title as some kind of a sick joke.

SOTIRIOS
30-09-2007, 10:17
A hope that he is joking...Poor fanatical brothers....The truth will shine some day...Oh, Great Astelan...

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 10:18
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha... Many fanatical DA will see the error of their ways... Cypher is the only hope of the DA....

It'll be a cold day in Tartarus (Hell) before that happens. :p


The truth will shine some day...Oh, Great Astelan...

And on that day you will be eating crow...

MutantMaggot
30-09-2007, 10:24
MadDoc, Hades is not necessarily hot. In fact, it's supposed to be cold and grim, with spirits flitting about. According to your impeccable logic Cypher IS the only hope of the DA ... :D

SOTIRIOS
30-09-2007, 10:25
It'll be a cold day in Hades before that happens. :p



And on that day you will be eating crow...

I would like to play your DA with my "Fallen" so much! It would be so fun! By the way is there anything in the book about Astelan?

reds8n
30-09-2007, 10:39
No Astelan is never mentionned.

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 10:41
Just finished reading it - good book, and although we don't hear enough of what happened after the legion was split, we know enough to know that those left behind were the moral heart of the legion. Luther is still obviously vulnerable, but the Lion is far from innocent, and this account only goes to support the old, Fallen view of the war - that those left behind were, on the whole, free from Chaos, and it was the Lion' contingent that were most suspicious. Confirmation of the existence of Cypher (in some form) is good to see as well.

And the Emperor gets more lines! \o/ Not too many, but it's a start.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 10:42
MadDoc, Hades is not necessarily hot. In fact, it's supposed to be cold and grim, with spirits flitting about. According to your impeccable logic Cypher IS the only hope of the DA ... :D

Would you rather I'd said Tartarus (which is a part of Hades)? Would that assuade any need for pedantry?

I'd thought some might have found Hell offensive.

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 10:43
a little bit. he was one of the original Dark Angels (from Terra) and his company were all veterans.
only in Angels of Darness.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 10:47
Just finished reading it - good book <SNIP BLATANT SPOILERS>

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. :mad: FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO WAIT BEFORE WE'RE ABLE TO GET THE BOOK SPOILER THINGS LIKE THAT.

Thats not too much to ask.

MutantMaggot
30-09-2007, 10:48
Would you rather I'd said Tartarus (which is a part of Hades)? Would that assuade any need for pedantry?

I'd thought some might have found Hell offensive.

No offence was meant, I just couldn't help it, believing that Cypher is the DA's greatest salvation. I didn't mean to seem pedantic. Tartarus would suffice ... :D And Hell? Most Warhammer players wouldn't, but I see your reasoning. Besides, who says Hell's hot? ;)

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 10:50
yer I hate the fact that because i live in the land of eckeckeckeck (xxxx for discowld fans) that I have to wait 1-2 months after the book is released in England. if your going to do a worldwide release then do a worldwide release and dont give the english a heads up.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 10:54
Tartarus would suffice ... :D And Hell? Most Warhammer players wouldn't, but I see your reasoning. Besides, who says Hell's hot? ;)

Apart from one of the Seven Circles of Dante's Hell, the vast majority of actual lore about it does (Fire and Brimstone (not the Mod)).

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 11:13
firslly hades was bitter and cold, no colour and basicly a very depressing place.

the original references to hell in the christian bible come from the Hebrew texts and describe it as being similar to the place in Jerusalem where the bodies of the executed where burned. the burning was the least important thing. going to hell ment you were to be treated as less than a slave. it was only during the middle ages that you get the image of hell being of fire and brimedtone and the image was used to keep people in line and afferm the power of the church.

now for some fun - if hell is hot is it endothermic or exothermic - basicly does it make its own heat of does it suck in heat

Brimstone
30-09-2007, 11:18
Lets stay on topic please i.e. Descent of Angels the book.

The Warseer Inquisition

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 11:22
Some of us have to wait before we are able to buy the book, so could people please Spoiler tag any overt Spoilers (Kegluneq I'm looking at you :mad:).

Edited: To comply with Brims request.

@MutantMaggot- Nice one. :D

MutantMaggot
30-09-2007, 11:26
Sorry Brimstone.

What's "Legion" about? Apart from the AL? And what period of time does DoA depict?

MutantMaggot

PS> MadDoc, that could explain why Hades is cold, and Tartarus hot. Tartarus is endothermic ... :D
(That was in response to MadDoc's previous, un-edited post.)

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 13:10
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. :mad: FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO WAIT BEFORE WE'RE ABLE TO GET THE BOOK SPOILER THINGS LIKE THAT.

Thats not too much to ask.

Ah, whoops. :S I purposefully avoided reading this thread until I'd finished the book (since we're not in rumour discussion now, we're in background discussion) but I should have realised not everyone would be doing the same...

Aranel
30-09-2007, 15:43
Actuallyook, Hades was the name of the entire Greek underworld, it was a very cold and forbiding place, but the dead were judged and taken to three zones, Elysium (Paradise), Asaphol (Limbo), and Tartarus (Hell), which was in fact very firey and filled with sreams of enternal torment.

Anyway, finished the book and found it interesting, the narrative was a bit jumpy, and the ending seemed very rushed If there is not another Dark Angel based book the story will seem very much incomplete (and not for the obvious reasons such as the fall of Caliban).

xXx

MutantMaggot
30-09-2007, 16:05
From that I would guess that "Legion", or the next book (can't remember its name) will involve the DA in some way, perhaps solving the ending.

Just a guess
MutantMaggot

Sorry Brimstone.

@MutantMaggot- Nice one. :D

Thanks, MadDoc. Perhaps if off-topic parts of posts could be size 1?

Also, what is the next book after Legion called?

Mechanicus
30-09-2007, 16:19
Legion involves the Imperial Army and the Alpha Legion, and the one after that (Battle for the Abyss) is, in my mind, the battle for the Phall system involving the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors. The Dark Angels (led by Lion) are possibly going to be in a book against the Night Lords, since they are supposed to be in the area where they are sent.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 21:15
Sorry Brimstone.
Thanks, MadDoc. Perhaps if off-topic parts of posts could be size 1?

Alrighty... ;)


Also, what is the next book after Legion called?

Battle for the Abyss I believe. No idea on its focus as yet though, sorry.

Edit: Bother, just pipped at the post by Mechanicus.

Mechanicus
30-09-2007, 21:25
Edit: Bother, just pipped at the post by Mechanicus. Well, in fairness, my post is just speculation at the moment - yours is more accurate as yet! :D All we know is it involves a space battle (Phall fits that and the timeline of events - Davin, Isstvan III, Eisenstein, Isstvan V and then Phall - and also is something I'm looking forward to ;))

I'm undecided as to which Legion might get the lion's share of the book. Imperial Fists have this as a notable action, but they also have Terra and Mars, later events which are arguably more important, and the Iron Warriors have Tallarn as their main focus during the Heresy. I'm personally expecting Imperial Fists, and to get another book on their exploits on Terra later on. Admittedly, my reasoning is based on the fact that Counter's writing it, and will get to feature his assault companies which would lead to the formation of the Soul Drinkers! :p

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 21:44
Well, in fairness, my post is just speculation at the moment - yours is more accurate as yet! :D All we know is it involves a space battle (Phall fits that and the timeline of events - Davin, Isstvan III, Eisenstein, Isstvan V and then Phall - and also is something I'm looking forward to ;))

Its a fair speculation based on the apparent pattern so far though. I just wanted to avoid muddying the waters with any guesses. Even a relatively logically based one. Although I suspect your guess is on the money.


I'm undecided as to which Legion might get the lion's share of the book.

Unfortunately until we have some sort of confirmation on content, we can't even be sure on the Legions featured.


Imperial Fists have this as a notable action, but they also have Terra and Mars, later events which are arguably more important, and the Iron Warriors have Tallarn as their main focus during the Heresy.

I can't help but feel the Battle for Terra will be shared between the Legions (heck maybe even the Primarchs) present, or will be presented as a duology (Loyalist PoV in one Volume, Traitor PoV in the other).


I'm personally expecting Imperial Fists, and to get another book on their exploits on Terra later on. Admittedly, my reasoning is based on the fact that Counter's writing it, and will get to feature his assault companies which would lead to the formation of the Soul Drinkers! :p

The potential of that happening makes me cry alittle on the inside... :cries:

(Not really a fan of his Soul Drinkers novels (Its not about his writing they just never really did anything for me))

Captain Stern
30-09-2007, 21:44
So could someone tell me if Luther and the Lion have a 1 on 1 duel at the end of this book, with both being "equally matched" (urghh :rolleyes:), as described in Codex Angels of Death?

Spoiler the answer or pm me I don't mind.

Ktotwf
30-09-2007, 21:50
Does the Imperial Guard (excuse me, Imperial Army) get a book in this series? That would be sweet.

Mechanicus
30-09-2007, 22:00
Unfortunately until we have some sort of confirmation on content, we can't even be sure on the Legions featured. :D Add "in that case" to the end of that sentence, and that'll be what I mean.

I can't help but feel the Battle for Terra will be shared between the Legions (heck maybe even the Primarchs) present, or will be presented as a duology (Loyalist POV in one Volume, Traitor POV in the other). That was initially my thought as well, but I was thinking about how they did the viewpoints of the Isstvan III battles, and it seems the coverage of actual events are completely fragmented depending on the characters involved (GiF gets the story of Tarvitz, Loken and Torgaddon, FotE adds to Garro's part, F adds about Demeter and Lucius, etc). What I would expect is a trilogy for the Sons of Horus and associated characters detailing their events on and above Terra and the journey towards it, with the other Legions' characters getting parts in their own novels dealing with the Siege and any events near to it. I could, of course, be wrong...


The potential of that happening makes me cry alittle on the inside...
(Not really a fan of his Soul Drinkers novels (Its not about his writing they just never really did anything for me))I've met quite a few people who think the same thing - I liked the concept of a renegade Chapter, but the overextension of what I felt was a perfectly good stand alone novel spoiled it a little for me; but I know plenty of others who disagree. Each to his own, and all that.


So could someone tell me if Luther and the Lion have a 1 on 1 duel at the end of this book, with both being "equally matched" (urghh ), as described in Codex Angels of Death?

Spoiler the answer or pm me I don't mind. I wouldn't think so - I don't think it covers the battle of Caliban at all yet. Purely a set up book, it seems, much like Horus Rising :)


Does the Imperial Guard (excuse me, Imperial Army) get a book in this series? That would be sweet.Well, at least part of a book. :D

I'm certainly optimistic about Descent of Angels, but I like the Dark Angels' secretive and suspicious nature, and anything dealing with that or the build up to it is going to get my money. :D

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 22:05
So could someone tell me if Luther and the Lion have a 1 on 1 duel at the end of this book, with both being "equally matched" (urghh :rolleyes:), as described in Codex Angels of Death?

Spoiler the answer or pm me I don't mind.
No.

And don't worry, Luther is a truly impressive individual in his own right, but he's nowhere near the match of a Primarch. Presumably for their actual duel he is boosted by Chaos powers, but Descent of Angels ends before that point.

Captain Stern
30-09-2007, 22:34
No.

And don't worry, Luther is a truly impressive individual in his own right, but he's nowhere near the match of a Primarch. Presumably for their actual duel he is boosted by Chaos powers, but Descent of Angels ends before that point.

Ok... but still. It's never sat right with me. No matter how they justify it it still diminishes the standing of the Lion considerably. If they removed Luther from the story he'd be the coolest primarch in my opinion.

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 22:49
Luther is actually quite a good character - and judging by the events of DoA, one badly maligned. The Lion is aloof to everyone, and is a mighty warrior mostly thanks to his genetic heritage and built in charismatic appeal. Luther is no match for him physically, but as an individual his strength is entirely his own. Luther is torn during the book between supporting his Brother and achieving his own ends, but in every case he is either unsuccssful in his attempts to match the Lion, or he realises how lucky he is to live with such a man.

The Lion is not always a particularly likeable person, and I don't think that started with this book. The moral ambiguity of the Fallen - those left with Luther - is still very much an issue.

Ktotwf
30-09-2007, 23:14
I'm certainly optimistic about Descent of Angels, but I like the Dark Angels' secretive and suspicious nature, and anything dealing with that or the build up to it is going to get my money. :D

Which almost insures that it will basically be the Guardsmen going, "OMFG! THESE GUYS ARE SUPER UBER LEET! WE'RE GETTING OUR ASS KICKED!" Sigh.

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 23:21
Which almost insures that it will basically be the Guardsmen going, "OMFG! THESE GUYS ARE SUPER UBER LEET! WE'RE GETTING OUR ASS KICKED!" Sigh.
Actually - it isn't. (Does that need spoiler tags?)

And there were no 'Guardsmen' back then anyway :p

Edit: The blurb on the Black Library website is completely off - that period isn't mentioned in the book at all. Very odd.

Lord Dante
01-10-2007, 12:26
Back in 2nd edition and early 3rd before all these BL monstrosities started appearing, Space Marines were grim, stalwart defenders of humanity. They were imposing, frightening, hard to relate to. There is a fluff box in one of the rulebooks (can't remember which one) where a Blood Angel thinks about his relationship to those he's sworn to protect. He keeps thinking of humanity as "them" and has to force himself to remember that he also is a human.


But all your explaining is perspective, SM's are scary and imposing, if im on the end of thier fist but there is no point of reference, 2nd rules or not, that describes they dont have human qualities in the 40th M.

I got into W40k with RT, and i have always been drawn to SM but at no point did I ever think the SM I loved so much were emtionless Zombies.

What your describing is a robot, a SM wihout emotion, consider this for a moment, for this theroy to ring true then a SM can never have a laugh with a friend. this also means a SM can never show the emotion of anger, which would seem impossible to me.

Ive read all your posts in this thread and you keep saying that the BL writting is rubbish, and that they have got SM all wrong, how can this honestly be?

I think, GW thinks and many other thousands (hundreds?) think that they got the SM right, perhaps its your view thats wrong. I dont understand your argument to be honest, SM are humans, super humans yes but still humans, with emotion, emotion to Hate and be Happy.

i think its perfectl acceptable to belive that some SM build bonds with thier brother SM, that they do laugh about certain situations.

just look at the sons of Russ...

Perhaps the 41st M SM we know today are far more condtioned, so that they have lost many a human quality, to prevent the possiblity of corruption?

LexxBomb
04-10-2007, 05:41
Actually - it isn't. (Does that need spoiler tags?)

And there were no 'Guardsmen' back then anyway :p

Edit: The blurb on the Black Library website is completely off - that period isn't mentioned in the book at all. Very odd.

um there is quite alot of evidence htats states that there was a human imperial guard equvilant during the great crusade. it was called the imperial army and comprised of both the fleets and the human foot sloggers (now known as guardsmen)

Kegluneq
04-10-2007, 08:24
Yeah, that's what I meant - they weren't 'Guardsmen', just troopers, because the Guard hadn't been established yet.

Lastie
04-10-2007, 09:05
Perhaps the 41st M SM we know today are far more condtioned, so that they have lost many a human quality, to prevent the possiblity of corruption?

I'm quoting Lord Dante here mainly because he's addressed, in his reply to Wyssy Wyg, what's always bothered me about the recent slough of BL novels, especially those written by Graham McNeil (who's apparently 'always right' about Space Marines, if the staff members of an old GW store at to be believed due to McNeil being the late author of the early 4th Ed SM Codices). They make Space Marines too Human.

I'm fully aware that a degree of Humanity is required for the author to empathise with our Astartes heroes, otherwise we do have mindless robots killing things. However, let's not ignore the fact that SM are essentially grown-up child soldiers; having been taken at a young age and rigurously trained, tortured (more training), mind-washed (Chaplain preaching), and surgically operated on (zygote implantation). Most die during the process, harsh as it is (although admittedly most of that is due to the zygotes). All this to create a living weapon designed to dish out mass genocide on command.

When your entire life is built around killing people, to the point of being physically augmented to perform the act even more successfully, if you had a sense of humour it probably wouldn't be used to escape the horrors of war (as a Guardsman would do) but to enhance it. Space Marines should give Death Jesters a run for their money in the dark humour department.

Anyway, to get back on topic this is what annoyed me about the excerpt of Descent of Angels (and the Heresy series in general): everyone's far too happy. Even Horus seemed on the verge of dancing around singing "I'm an evil maniac! I'm going to burn down the Imperium daddy!!" by the end of False Gods (another McNeil book, oddly enough).

Where did the grim darkness go? :p

Odin
04-10-2007, 09:31
Calling all Horus Heresy experts! I wonder if you could help clear something up for me? Were there Space Marine Librarians at the time of the Great Crusade / Horus Heresy?

I thought the Emperor banned the use of psychic powers by anyone but himself. Thatís why he told Magnus the Red to stop studying sorcery, and eventually sent the Space Wolves to Prospero. I thought that Librarians were introduced later, after the Emperor was interred in the Golden Throne.

But Iím reading Descent of Angels at the moment, and that includes Dark Angel librarians at the time of the great crusade. Is this a mistake?

The Warmaster
04-10-2007, 09:34
Calling all Horus Heresy experts! I wonder if you could help clear something up for me? Were there Space Marine Librarians at the time of the Great Crusade / Horus Heresy?

I thought the Emperor banned the use of psychic powers by anyone but himself. Thatís why he told Magnus the Red to stop studying sorcery, and eventually sent the Space Wolves to Prospero. I thought that Librarians were introduced later, after the Emperor was interred in the Golden Throne.

But Iím reading Descent of Angels at the moment, and that includes Dark Angel librarians at the time of the great crusade. Is this a mistake?

There were Librarians during the Great Crusade, although they were reassigned to other, non-psychic roles when the Emperor banned the use of psychic powers at the Council of Nikaea. However, the Librarian organization of the Thousand Sons was not disbanded, as you would probably have guessed (although they were still told to).

- N.

The Warmaster
04-10-2007, 09:42
Yeah, that's what I meant - they weren't 'Guardsmen', just troopers, because the Guard hadn't been established yet.

Actually, I have seen the term "Guardsmen" used as a term for Imperial Army troops a number of times before (although I currently don't have a reference).

- N.

charlie_c67
04-10-2007, 23:16
Errr double posting is not a good idea, hence the multiple quote button in the middle of that triad.

IIRC it wasn't Librarian's that were banned but the study of Sourcery. Quite what the difference is can be debated but I'm pretty sure it was the third way between and outright ban and the total immersion.

The Warmaster
04-10-2007, 23:28
Errr double posting is not a good idea, hence the multiple quote button in the middle of that triad.

IIRC it wasn't Librarian's that were banned but the study of Sourcery. Quite what the difference is can be debated but I'm pretty sure it was the third way between and outright ban and the total immersion.

I'm aware of the multiple quote button - the second post was written sometime after the first, if I recall correctly. And, yes, I know I could have edited it, but that thought did not occur to me at the time.

The idea of Librarians remaining after the Council of Nikaea has since been retconned by the artbooks and the HH series - Librarius/Librarium (I've seen both terms used) divisions were disbanded in current canon, only to be reformed after the Siege of Terra.

- N.

bigred
06-10-2007, 21:40
Well another thing to remember is that a Librarian's use of their powers on the battlefield are among their rarest and smallest duties.

The chapter's librarium is their communications center, used to keep in touch with the rest of the Imperium, coordinate battlefield operations, sense incoming warp traffic before it arrives in realspace, and the like. Chapters use their much more talented librarians instead of astropaths like the Imperial Guard does for these duties.

So even if the Emperor banned the outright battlefield use of librarians due to the risk of sorcery, and had them reassigned to the battle-companies, they would still be "librarians", and continue to perform their considerable non-combat duties.

ryng_sting
07-10-2007, 08:38
Calling all Horus Heresy experts! I wonder if you could help clear something up for me? Were there Space Marine Librarians at the time of the Great Crusade / Horus Heresy?

I thought the Emperor banned the use of psychic powers by anyone but himself. That’s why he told Magnus the Red to stop studying sorcery, and eventually sent the Space Wolves to Prospero. I thought that Librarians were introduced later, after the Emperor was interred in the Golden Throne.

But I’m reading Descent of Angels at the moment, and that includes Dark Angel librarians at the time of the great crusade. Is this a mistake?

Already answered elsewhere, but...

They existed at the time of the Great Crusade. The Emperor eventually banned them, but it took time for the order to reach everyone, and more time still to enact it. After the heresy, necessity demanded the ban be lifted, and the order to reinstate it was never given.