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View Full Version : Skaven are a broken trainwreck



hoobajoo
05-09-2007, 18:08
Well, that's what I hear anyway. It really disheartened me to hear that when I was first looking into Fantasy; Skaven have a great theme and fluff, and would be a welcome change from Space Marines. But that left me wondering, are all Skaven either worthless and weak or unfair and boring?

My impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Clan Skryre list is the especially broken part of their lists. That said, what do people think about the viability of the other clans as tournament-winners without being boring/unfair to fight against (note, I have a very liberal view on what is not broken)? Are there any other clan lists besides Skryre that are truly busted?

sulla
05-09-2007, 19:00
It used to be broken in 6th when the weapons teams were virtually immune to being shot but could do immense ammounts of damage to any unit close enough to be shot at very little risk to themselves, inspiring players to max out on engineers and ratling guns.

In 7th, those teams are vulnerable to shooting and magic missiles and the engineers can't pool dice anymore so the army is a lot better balanced. If you want to play skaven, you definately should. There are not enough infantry horde players out there.

As for which clan lists are best, I don't think you can go past the normal warlord clan list. It's so versatile with lots of competitive unit choices.

ZeroTwentythree
05-09-2007, 20:20
As broken as the empire gunline, dwarven anvil/gunline, WE spirit army, HE all cav, flying circus (brett AND tzeench versions), Kroak, etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah whatever the complaint of the day is.... People can power-game just about every army list.

Play Skaven if you like to. Play whatever army you want.

Omegakai
05-09-2007, 20:29
armies aren't broken, players are.

theunwantedbeing
05-09-2007, 20:34
The skryre gunline was broken....the rest of the list was fine,if anything a bit underpowered which did mean people resorted to taking more of the stuff that worked(skryre stuff) eventually resulting in a skryre gunline.

You can make a decent pestilens list though,with no skryre stuff that works nicely.
4 units of clanrats.
unit of stormvermin
2 units of plaguemonks
2 units of plague censor bearers
3 plague priests
grey seer on screaming bell
Some plaguerats

Nice army,that isnt overpowered and is fairly okay,no skryre either.
Skryre is very tempting though......

Even more so when you think of the conversion possibilities for putting 40k things into your skaven army.
....tau rail rifle armed jezzails,or necron weaponry
....multi melta warpfire throwers
....burst rifle ratling guns

fubukii
05-09-2007, 20:39
I play a pretty balanced skaven horde and i assure you the key to winning with rats is using slaves to redirect units so you can flank with other units. Also known as the checkerboard deployment

WageMage
06-09-2007, 10:00
Well, that's what I hear anyway.
Might I give you some advice that might help you in your life:
First of all, make up your own mind before taking someones opinions for granted.
Form your own opinion before blindly accepting stuff.
We already have too many people that behave as sheep.

Now assuming you're not simply trolling:
- Why do you believe them to be broken?
- Have played with or against them yet?

To tell the truth, not even the 6th edition of Skryre was broken.
Boring, point'n click and reliant on luck yes, but not broken.
Other gunlines would demolish you, practically all armies could kill your weapon teams (though it required actually thinking ahead on their part), etc, ...

Anyone claiming they are broken in 7th are simply lying or bad losers.
My regular army only has 2 weapon teams, no Jezzails and no cannons and is still a rock-hard army. The only thing it doesn't handle well is dragons.
Depending on my mood I'll add some magic or not.

The army is very flexible. You can have a combination using HTH combat, magic and shooting. (This is what scares most opponents)

SkawtheFalconer
06-09-2007, 10:07
To my continuing shame, I started a thread like this a while ago. It spiralled out of control, but does contain some very interesting argumetns and counter arguments on the subject.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/fantasy-general-discussion/74166-skaven-broken.html

Can I suggest we don't dig this tired old issue up again?

kroq'gar
06-09-2007, 10:08
If you want a fluff based army then there not up there. I try a warlord clan.. cant win. (stormvermin being so bad for 1)

Oberon
06-09-2007, 10:09
In 7th, those teams are vulnerable to shooting and magic missiles and the engineers can't pool dice anymore so the army is a lot better balanced.
Actually skaven suffered from the 7th edition magic change much less than other races. Each warlock is a 1level wizard (generate one dice for themselves) and that wargear item that makes them generate other dice goes to the pool, not to the warlock having that said item. So in 6ed all wizards generated their whole levels worth of dice to the pool and everyone could tap in to it. In 7ed pool is 2 dice and each wizard has his levels worth of own dice no one else can use, BUT the skaven have 2 in pool, and each geared out engineer generates one dice more in to the pool and one for himself. Skaven pool the half they used to, other donīt pool at all.
This is not to say you should play magic heavy, or skryre at all. Weaponteames became much worse, any army with at least some shooting ability will net that 65+ pts team with ease.

DeathlessDraich
06-09-2007, 12:39
hoobajoo:
Skaven armies and special rules shows a great translation of the Skaven background into special rules which are actually very fair.

Most of Skaven advantages have a double edge sword -
a) High Ld but only if you're not fleeing and close to the general
b) Shoot into combat but your units takes hits as well
c) Super shooting units but doubles and 1s will destroy you.
d) Tunnelling but you could be buried and destroyed

Against that Skaven have huge intrinsic weaknesses - low unit Ld for skirmishers especially, poor in one on one combat, no cavalry.

It takes great skill to play a Skaven horde devoid of shooting.*


armies aren't broken, players are.

How very true although I'm not exactly sure what you mean:D


I play a pretty balanced skaven horde and i assure you the key to winning with rats is using slaves to redirect units so you can flank with other units. Also known as the checkerboard deployment

*How many Ratling guns, Jezzails etc are present?
Have you ever tried a non shooting Skaven army list against a massed Khorne Beasts, 2 terror causer armies - double ST or Dragon plus another or Brets or even an opposing gunline army e.g. Empire or a triple Butcher Ogre Kingdom army?

Khorne - seems easy to deflect charges using Night runners or Slaves and then flank charge but even after flank charging, the Skaven unit might break from so many hits!

2 STs or Terror causers - a real nightmare to Skaven units on the periphery and away from the general. Resorting to more units around the general inevitably invites a shot from a stone thrower.

Brets - No chance if there is not much difficult terrain. Superior charge distance, good armour/ward saves - 3 or 4 Skaven units will break in turn 2 and 1 Bret unit might break if you're lucky - however their flee moves inevitably takes them out of reach of being caught whereas the opposite happens for Skaven. And then there is that pesky trebuchet!

Triple Butcher Ogre Kingdoms - 3 Panic spells and 3 magic missiles, followed by Fear tests - units devastated before they can get into combat.

fubukii
06-09-2007, 16:43
By balanced i meant i run a little of everything, Alot of troops, Magic, and some shooting

i nOrmally run 1warlord, 3 warlocks, 4 blocks of clanrats, 4 slave blocks, 2 5 man night runenr units, 8 jezaails, 2-3 tunnel teams, 2 WLC, no weapon teams they arent worth their points. Only army of the above that gave me trouble is a 3 butcher MSU ogre army because he had as many units as i did, and they moved farther and hit alot harder :P. As for brets they may have a greater charge distance but you need to lure them into thinking they in range (like staying 17inches away) , and regardless if they hang to far back ill just move 2.5 inches backwards to get out of his range (meaning he must be withing 12 or 13 inches too ensure he gets to charge me which means he is well within slave redirection range :P), or even flee so he fails his charge so i can setup a nice flank charge with another unit.

W0lf
06-09-2007, 20:04
2 games vs shooty skaven with 14-16 power dice. (2 diffrent players, similar lists)

2 wins.

However if my army wasnt so heavy on magic then it could have been alot lot worse.

Skaven are fairly broken unless of course you have lots and lots of red fire :D

Kerill
07-09-2007, 10:17
I think in 7th skaven really aren't overpowered. Before the cry was about the fact that you couldn't target weapons teams. Now you can and they are very easy to kill of (far easier than any other machine crew in fact) but still hit pretty hard. You could go 100% SAD army if you wanted and I don't think it would be overpowered anymore. Rank up in 5 meant they need to spend more on each unit to get their leadership bonus and enemy knights will get more attacks in when they charge.

Some Gt armies won with very few characters and a boatload of slaves, thats cool.

Choose skaven, no-one does these days but be warned they are a horrendously expensive army to collect albeit you can scratch build their war machines easily enough- the worse a job you do the more skaveny it looks :)

ZeroTwentythree
07-09-2007, 12:32
2 games vs shooty skaven with 14-16 power dice. (2 diffrent players, similar lists)

2 wins.

However if my army wasnt so heavy on magic then it could have been alot lot worse.

Skaven are fairly broken unless of course you have lots and lots of red fire :D



I'm certain a shooty army with a pile of magic is something that only Skaven can do. I certainly would never expect to see LM or HE armies with a bunch of shooting and a pile of power dice + bound items, for example. :rolleyes:

Tell you what, if I post a lists from other army books that fit the description above, can we all whine about how they're broken too?

WageMage
07-09-2007, 13:42
Choose skaven, no-one does these days but be warned they are a horrendously expensive army to collect albeit you can scratch build their war machines easily enough- the worse a job you do the more skaveny it looks.
They're actually not that expensive to buy as you'd think.
Almost all are plastic or easily convertible.
The Batallion is one of the best there is and gets you lots of miniatures pretty cheap (for GW prices at least).
(40 Clanrats, 20 Monks, 2 Ogres, Packmasters, 6 Giant rats + about 18 smaller rats from the Monk sprues + lost of bits to convert with)

Wolflord Havoc
07-09-2007, 14:23
I have only just started playing WHFB and I choose Skaven as all my 40K armies have been Chaos Marines or good guys and I wanted a horde bad guy army.

So far I think I have broken even in the win loss ratio and have had some absolutely hilarious results with the army.

The funnyest was where I cast Plague with a 13 (ultimate force for the rats) and it proceeded to kill 15 Gobbo's hahahaha then back fired and killed 27 Skaven from my Stormvermin and Plugue monks unit (about 2/3rds of the Plague monks died when I managed to roll more 5s and 6s than 1s,2s, 3s and 4s combined).

An lately my ratling guns keep rolling doubles and my units keep running away at the earliest opportunity.

In fact here is a brief 'Battle Report' written by me from Monday evenings battle. Basically I got my **** kicked by a mate Ogre Kingdoms army, but I decided to write it as a piece of Skaven Properganda (sp?)

================================================== =====

The Skaven carried out a classic rear guard action and I am happy to report that Grey Seer Boonrat and Chieftan VerminKrieg are alive and well however the supplied assassin Spooke was last seen trying to shove his entrails back in with his one remaining arm and it is believed that Warplock Enginseer Generat was main course of honour at the Ogres post battle banquet. Also on the Menu was "Rat on a stick" , "Giant rat Steaks" and "Rack of Ogre Ribs".

Grey Seer Boonrat remembered very early in the battle that he had a very important conference call and alas had to leave the battle in some what of a hurry.

When our reporter asked an exhausted looking Chieftan VerminKrieg if the battle had gone to plan he looked some what shocked, scratched his backside and said "There was a plan?".

However he was resonably happy with the effects of his warp blade and the fact that casulties were relatively light (an outstanding 7 Skaven :1 Ogre kill ratio not to be sniffed at) and as far as he was aware "Caused by the enemy this time and not by that idiot warp spawn grey se.."

Whoooa I am afraid we have just lost the signal there - we will attempt to return to our Imbedded Rat Corrispondent as soon as we find some more warp stone.

================================================== ========


I absolutely love it.

JonnyTHM
07-09-2007, 14:59
I'm surprised to see what some people consider a 'warlord' army. I admit I have a skryre contingent in my army (but at the same time, I'm only missing two unit entries from the entire core,special,rare selection).

If you want a pretty balanced list I'd suggest:

Warlord
BSB
1 Engineer

3 units of clanrats
3 units of slaves
3 single packs of giant rats (for redirecting)
1 unit of stormvermin
3 small units of globadiers (2-4)
a small unit of plague monks (wide frontage, 2 hand weapons, many attacks, no ranks (you have 7 units with rank support)
a small unit of jezzails
a small unit of rat ogres
a single tunnelling team
a warp lightning cannon
and a unit of plague censer bearers


This to me is a great example of a list that truly is 'all comers' and 'all encompassing'.

Unlike most armies, taking one of everything in a skaven army is quite doable.

I play 2000 pts, 230 rats, 1 WFT, 1 WLC, 5 jezzails and 5 globadiers right now. 325 points of shooting, combined with a single warlock engineer keeps the game fun, and your rats plentiful.

fubukii
07-09-2007, 22:15
Eh i guess the above list is balanced in terms of having all the clans, but iwas refering to balanced as A force able to take on most armies without being super cheesey :P.

First of all storm vemin are not worth their pts, nor are globes, nor are rat ogres.

JonnyTHM
08-09-2007, 18:14
Globes aren't worth their points?!!?! I mean, I know rat ogres aren't, that's why I only use 100 points of them as a distraction/easy unit strength 5+ unit to sneak behind enemy lines, but Globes?! (Also, Stormvermin with the ability to get static combat res of +8 are always worth their points to me)

Wounding a dragon on a 4+: priceless
Wounding a steamtank on a 4+: priceless
Wounding a giant on a 4+: priceless

The globe throwers are what I think make that list more able to take all comers.

I've never ran into an army where I didn't feel I at least had a pretty good chance with that list. And I'd be very surprised to hear someone call it cheesy.

moose
08-09-2007, 18:43
First of all storm vemin are not worth their pts, nor are globes, nor are rat ogres.

Fully agreed, though all are fun to play :D.

I wouldn't call skaven broken, after all its a T3 army who would panic if you shone torches in their eyes. They have good magic and shooting to accomodate for their very poor close combat and leadership. Granted these advantages are very powerful but they kill your own army just as much usually.

To beat skaven, snipe the general, flank his unit, challenge him. Take him out and skaven will start to run away....well thats if you can get through the hundreds of slaves xD.

Some of the most fun times i've had - have been when my units have been kicking ass all game, then in turn 5 all my units blow up and everything runs away. Skaven is truley a fun 50/50 army.

Skaven rules aren't overpowered, but they are overly fun to play with and against.

fubukii
09-09-2007, 15:58
Globes are a ridiculous 10 pts each only hit on 4s and have a 8 inch range so once they shoot once or twice they will most likely die, with the new march blocking rules (that and most troops can charge 8inches) As for shooting into combat it makes them even worse say you have 10 globes, half should hit 5 then 2.5 hit both you and your enemy, so your paying 100 pts to do maybe 2 wounds if your lucky and insanely close range with no armor no COmbat ability and Absolutely no range. But yes if for some reason you can get enough globes on a stank, or a dragaon they can and probably will do decent vs it assuming they dotn live charge the globes and over run into a new unit :P

Moepho
09-09-2007, 20:10
I think in 7th skaven really aren't overpowered. Before the cry was about the fact that you couldn't target weapons teams. Now you can and they are very easy to kill of (far easier than any other machine crew in fact) but still hit pretty hard.


I still can't find in the rulebook where it says this. Can somebody give me a page number?

Oberon
09-09-2007, 20:12
Can you find a page where it says they canīt be shot? In 6ed there was that line, in 7ed there isnīt. Maybe they still canīt be shot, maybe the developers just forgot to put it in... :angel:

Moepho
09-09-2007, 20:32
Can you find a page where it says they canīt be shot? In 6ed there was that line, in 7ed there isnīt. Maybe they still canīt be shot, maybe the developers just forgot to put it in... :angel:

I'm probably misinterpreting it but from my understanding it says they have the same limitations as shooting at a character on foot as long as they stay within 3" of their attached unit. So, as long you stay joined to your unit and it has a US of 5 or more they can't be targeted?

Oberon
10-09-2007, 07:17
I'm probably misinterpreting it but from my understanding it says they have the same limitations as shooting at a character on foot as long as they stay within 3" of their attached unit. So, as long you stay joined to your unit and it has a US of 5 or more they can't be targeted?
Indeed they do have the same limitations as shooting at a character. The problem is, characters donīt have any limitations regarding shooting them when they are not _in_ a unit, but standing next to them. Most characters are US1 so that makes them +1 difficult to hit. Weapon teams are "cavalry" so they donīt even have that.
This has changed in 7ed, in 6ed there actually were limitations about shooting characters next to a unit.

Bernardinatti
11-09-2007, 13:21
This has been something that has been bugging me ever since i discovered Warseer and it is something that i have brought up before.

What makes an army broken? I don't understand it. From what i have heard, "broken" armies are armies that play to their strengths. Skaven have really powerful shooters in the form of Jezzails and to a lesser extent WLC's....

So does that make a Brettonian army broken if it includes knights....because the knights work really well it means they're boring and broken....what about VC vampires....they're good too...does that mean it would be good sportsmanship not to use them.

Here's an idea...Chaos Marks....get rid of them....they add too much variety and personalisation to an army...obviously a broken factor about them.

You show me a (legal) army that cannot be countered. That cannot be beaten.

Then i will understand the idea of a "broken" army.

P.S. Sorry for the slight rant but its a subject that is close to my heart, for i am starting to collect a skaven army for myself and have been very impressed with what i believe would be called the SAD army. Yet i find the idea of an army being broken almost laughable and hearing so many people agree on it gets me very worked up :)

DeathlessDraich
11-09-2007, 14:59
This has been something that has been bugging me ever since i discovered Warseer and it is something that i have brought up before.
Yet i find the idea of an army being broken almost laughable and hearing so many people agree on it gets me very worked up :)

Hello and welcome Bernardinatti.

You are quite wrong is assuming that many here classify some armies as 'broken'.

Many players here, including myself will welcome playing against any army so long as it is legal and certainly do not regard any legal army list as being 'broken'.

Voodoo Boyz
11-09-2007, 15:21
By balanced i meant i run a little of everything, Alot of troops, Magic, and some shooting

i nOrmally run 1warlord, 3 warlocks, 4 blocks of clanrats, 4 slave blocks, 2 5 man night runenr units, 8 jezaails, 2-3 tunnel teams, 2 WLC, no weapon teams they arent worth their points. Only army of the above that gave me trouble is a 3 butcher MSU ogre army because he had as many units as i did, and they moved farther and hit alot harder :P. As for brets they may have a greater charge distance but you need to lure them into thinking they in range (like staying 17inches away) , and regardless if they hang to far back ill just move 2.5 inches backwards to get out of his range (meaning he must be withing 12 or 13 inches too ensure he gets to charge me which means he is well within slave redirection range :P), or even flee so he fails his charge so i can setup a nice flank charge with another unit.

Having recently seen an army like that in action for the first time (albeit with 6 units of clanrats & 6 units of slaves, no WLC's, it was pretty impressive.

They certainly make it near impossible to get any charges off because of how fleeing through units works and the fact that slaves don't cause panic.

Flee & Flank better than any other horde army with great shooting support.

L192837465
11-09-2007, 18:57
jezzails = my bane. i hate them with an absolute passion. i regularly take a unit of furies to handle jezzails alone.

and thier magic is amazing. anything with that many s5 magic missiles is stupid. and i hate.

doesnt mean i won't play them. its always a fun game against them.

gerrymander61
11-09-2007, 19:09
Threads like this almost make me feel bad about playing Skaven. Sheesh. It's like the poor landmine producer who feels bad about what he does for a living. Or the tobbacco farmer.

ZeroTwentythree
11-09-2007, 19:20
and thier magic is amazing. anything with that many s5 magic missiles is stupid. and i hate.


Considering my engineer blew himself up with them three of the last four games I've played, I'm starting to agree with the second and third sentence/fragments above. :rolleyes:

(Unfortunately, I usually need those S5's to tackle stuff with high T in other armies.)

fubukii
12-09-2007, 00:03
Well in Return for having no fast cav, No cav, no chariots, No Elite infatry, No hammer units, No 3d6 perusers etc etc, we Get A good magic lore, Decent shooting, and cheap infantry. Theres plenty of ups and downs to the army like any other.

Bernardinatti
12-09-2007, 05:19
You are quite wrong is assuming that many here classify some armies as 'broken'.

Many players here, including myself will welcome playing against any army so long as it is legal and certainly do not regard any legal army list as being 'broken'.

Well that is a relief to hear. Although i have been reading some of the other "skaven are broken" threads and i see you're right. Most disagree, but some unfortunately do.

A new concept i've heard in some of these threads is the idea of a "power army". That is concept i don't really understand. What's the difference between a "power army" and one that works, or you find wins a lot when you play? Is there one?

ZeroTwentythree
12-09-2007, 13:00
Well in Return for having no fast cav, No cav, no chariots, No Elite infatry, No hammer units, No 3d6 perusers etc etc, we Get A good magic lore, Decent shooting, and cheap infantry. Theres plenty of ups and downs to the army like any other.

...no fliers, no big monsters...

fubukii
12-09-2007, 16:19
I knew i left some stuff out ty zero :) u deserve a extra warpstone token for your help :P

kroq'gar
13-09-2007, 14:50
My warlord clan consists of slaves, clanrats, a dirty big unit of stormvermin (im talking 36 here) and a few heros. i Have a few embedded weapons teams, and the rest is go for it. I won a solid victoryagainst a bretonnian killing no more than 3 knights (the static combat resoluion is astounding).

Moepho
13-09-2007, 15:49
My warlord clan consists of slaves, clanrats, a dirty big unit of stormvermin (im talking 36 here) and a few heros. i Have a few embedded weapons teams, and the rest is go for it. I won a solid victoryagainst a bretonnian killing no more than 3 knights (the static combat resoluion is astounding).

Ebedded weapons teams? Explain?

gruntonheat
19-09-2007, 23:59
skaven are said to be broken but i don't think so it all depends on what units you pick and to what they pick this kinda reminds me of the warcraft 3 forums where people try to argue whats overpowered etc etc but i think at the end of the day any team can be overpowered in any situation it just matters about what units you pick and what kind of battle situation you are put in, as each team was made to be different but also each team was made to be able to have a counter to what ever the enemy could throw at you.
thats all i can say