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Captain Stern
05-09-2007, 19:08
Why are the physical manifestations of the Eldar god of murder beings of fire?

A neutral shade of black.
05-09-2007, 19:24
They're not; they've just got molten metal as their blood. That tends to cause the air to catch fire.

Idaan
05-09-2007, 20:35
Short answer:
Because when he fought against Kaelis Ra during the War in Heaven, he was tainted by him, and his physical manifestation is not Khaine in his whole form, but rather mainifestation of the Destroyer, his most destructive Aspect.

Long answer:
version a) when they fought against each other, they reached a stallmate. Khaine (back then in aspect of Avenger i presume) couldn't overcome the opponent, but in the end he drove the tip of his death-bringing spear through Nightbringer's head. C'tan's Necrodermis then exploded and shards of it pierced Khaine's mortal form. From then on, this Necrodermis (designed to house vital energy of powerful entities) followed the Khaine's essence even in Warp. When he was summoned into an avatar, his essence was bound to the living metal shell. So it formed a Deamonhost or rather a Daemon engine to contain fragment of Khaine's essence, and we all know that when a Warp entity possesses a material object, interesting side effects occur. In this case it is the flame and molten metal, reflecting nasty character of Khaine. Exactly that happened when Khaine was defeated by Slaanesh: he manifested himself into Necrodermis shells across the Craftworlds, except he couldn't gather back the energy, because he was "banished" from Warp.
This is an assumption in many places, but it can be also explained in some other ways.

version b) what I described in version a is true, but Necrodermis and Khaine's essence wasn't the deciding factor on the shape of the avatar. It was Eldar belief that Khaine was tainted by the fight with the Aspect of the Destroyer that mattered. They believed that whenever he manifested in the Materium, it had to be a manifestation of this destructive Aspect. Thus they shaped the shell by their belief that it really took form of the Destroyer. So when they believed that he will manifest as towering molten metal statue, he had to do so, because the potential for the manifestation was gathered from the Eldar worship. And so on. This has much to do with the "madness" that they forced upon Khaine, driving him mad by the sheer belief in his madness, forcing him to kill Eldanesh, only to further ensure the myths of mad Khaine. And to add to it madness, anger are popularily corellated with fire.

Now, why if it is the Destroyer that is manifesting, why isn't he a big Dark Reaper or a copy of the Nightbringer? After all we know that Dark Reapers exemplify Khaine as Destroyer. However their ritual garb comes from Maugan Ra's mourning of Altansar (as is said in the same paragraph of their codex entry), and they embody the Destroyer mainly in their role on the battlefield, not their outlook.
On the other hand, the bodily form of the Nightbringer wasn't his only form, and the original Eldar could just not have known that this is his "true" form: given their lack of knowledge of the C'tan's nature it was possible for them to believe that it was only an "aspect" of him. Also the psyche of Necrontyr was different than the Eldar's: while in one mythology Kaelis Ra could've been a Reaper god of death, in the other his connotations could've been with destruction, devouring and fire.

Hope I'm making some sense, because I couldn't stop looking into my new Shattered Hopes demo while typing this.;)

Vesica
05-09-2007, 20:57
wow that was brilliant Idaan.

Kage2020
05-09-2007, 21:17
Must admit that I'm not a great fan of the idea of the Avatar being made out of "living metal," preferring the idea that it is a variation on wraithbone. Then again, I'm also biased against the idea since I don't believe that Khaine could have been "contaminated" by the Nightbringer in their conflict. Sure, his avatar could have been, but not the warp god.

And, incidentally Idaan, what do you think of Shattered Hopes? Maybe that's for another thread in RPG, though?

Kage

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 22:14
My personal thoughts have always swayed towards the Eldar having summoned Khaine to the materium and encasing him in their own version of 'living metal'. My theory has always run side by side with MrBigMr's here, but i differ on one very important point.

I DON'T think khaines shell was living metal (in the C'tan sense). I think, as Kage explained earlier, that Khaines form was probably of an Eldar/Old one material, probably similar in some ways to the living metal of the C'tan, but made from theri own unique substances etc. Although (in my opinion) the Eldar tech of old (Vaul tech) was likely to be similar in many regards to necron tech, I think the shell that managed to encase part of (or all of) Khaines warp essence into the materium was something more than living metal.

I've never been able to get my tiny mind around the concept of a warp god being contaminated by living metal, but i can certainly understand why the medium used to hold part of or all of his essence could be.

Cheers.

Kage2020
05-09-2007, 22:35
Well, in terms of the mythology you can see why they would go with the contamination approach. And if I viewed this as "40kFantasy" then I wouldn't mind as much. It's just in my own personal interpretative approach to the 40k universe there is less space for "high fantasy" and a bit more for 'mundane interpretation' of that mythology, or seeking out the potential kernel of truth therein.

Of course, that's just me. Others have an equally acceptable approach that allows them to take the mythology at face value. Such is 40k!

Kage

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 22:45
Well, as you probably well know Kage, i'm a fan of the literal approach. However, like most posters this is only the case when it suits me.

This particular scenario has lead me on great journeys of personal interpretation in terms of the old Eldar gods, specifically Khaines relationship with Khorne and how the Eldar gods managed to manifest etc.

I've (literally) agonised for months over this very subject, and having been directed somewhat by the likes of MvS and yourself i now have a slightly clearer (in my own mind I guess) view of how this might have played out.

Either way, when dealing with mythology one must always add a heavy dose of salt.

So they say... :P

Kage2020
05-09-2007, 23:34
LOL. I don't think that I can argue a post that, essentially, argues that interpretation and preference is paramount in ones approach to the 40k universe. :D

Kage

Rockerfella
05-09-2007, 23:37
Isn't that the way it is though? Really? Of course i'm right here, and your interpretation of my post (in which I clearly explain that personal interpretation is indeed key to ones approach to the 40k universe) is pretty much spot on i'd say. ;)

Khaine's Messenger
05-09-2007, 23:52
Why are the physical manifestations of the Eldar god of murder beings of fire?

Fire is associated with divinity. Whether it is fire in the form of lightning, inspiration, passion, or literal fire, there is an elemental affinity for fire with the strong emotions expressed by those bearing the marks of the divine. This is the same reason the phoenix is so revered, why WHFB High Elves have their king pass through the "flame of Asuryan" to prove his worthiness, the reason gods of hearth and forge exist, and so on. Ignoring for the moment the excesses of energy pouring through such a rent in the fabric of realspace as an Avatar would create, an absence of fire/heat (or at least some form of piercing light/atmospheric effect) would be rather boring for any god.

All this muck-up about the battle with the Nightbringer is, in my opinion, a tad misleading re: the OP's question. Fire is not purely a baleful and malevolent force in this circumstance, and is more an expression of the passions involved in the Avatar's awakening and existence. Much like the Imperium likes to spit slogans about the health-benefits of a good fire, the presence of an Avatar has both good and ill tidings. I do like to think Khaine was "tainted" in the duel, mind, but I do not think that duel is responsible for the manifestation of shimmering heat from his physical manifestation.

But that's a high-level view. On a more practical level, I would attribute it to warp physics. Which is pretty much like saying "magic," yeah....

Idaan
06-09-2007, 12:56
wow that was brilliant Idaan.
:D :DWell thank you very much, but keep in mind that it is only my opinion, and other posters have already shown their interpretations that are even more amazing IMHO.

Must admit that I'm not a great fan of the idea of the Avatar being made out of "living metal," preferring the idea that it is a variation on wraithbone. Then again, I'm also biased against the idea since I don't believe that Khaine could have been "contaminated" by the Nightbringer in their conflict. Sure, his avatar could have been, but not the warp god.
Well, as I said it can be explained in many ways and probably every one of the resident Eldar scholars has his own theory;)
We can however find some similar points in most of them, such as:
-significance of duel with Nightbringer
-technology involved, be it necrodermis, wraithbone, Eldar copy of Necron tech or some form of Old Ones technomancy (Don't remember right now, but weren't gods intended to be sentient weapons for the Eldar to summon in the time of need?)
-difference between Khaine's avatar and the actual god
-significance of fire (as a side effect of potential manifestating itself into Materium, as a representation of Khaine's madness or as a symbol of divinity, as KM alludes to)
-role of Eldar belief, religion and myths in shaping the reality


And, incidentally Idaan, what do you think of Shattered Hopes? Maybe that's for another thread in RPG, though?Currently I'm trying to print the pdf (it's for download on BL's site if you don't know already)on my antique printer and read it in calm. From what I've seen it seems a bit hack&slash, but time will tell.

Fire is associated with divinity. Whether it is fire in the form of lightning, inspiration, passion, or literal fire, there is an elemental affinity for fire with the strong emotions expressed by those bearing the marks of the divine. This is the same reason the phoenix is so revered, why WHFB High Elves have their king pass through the "flame of Asuryan" to prove his worthiness, the reason gods of hearth and forge exist, and so on. Ignoring for the moment the excesses of energy pouring through such a rent in the fabric of realspace as an Avatar would create, an absence of fire/heat (or at least some form of piercing light/atmospheric effect) would be rather boring for any god.Now that's a fascinating take on it, though I think that the flame Avatar represents is more like a destructive force. Its noble form would be attributed more to the Asuryan or his vassal, Khaine-as-Dire Avenger IMHO.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 13:25
True, most people will come to their own conclusions when they read the 'fluff' -- thus the greatest strength and weakness of the 40k material.


significance of duel with Nightbringer
And there comes the real question. Was it real or not? How much do you believe the literal approach to the mythology and how much of it only encodes a fragment of the reality? As you see, Rockerfella accepts it all (seemingly).


role of Eldar belief, religion and myths in shaping the reality
Cultural reality, anyway.


it's for download on BL's site if you don't know already
Started downloading it within about five minutes of noticing that it was up, and that was seemingly 5-10 minutes after it was put up. ;)


From what I've seen it seems a bit hack&slash, but time will tell.
Aye, two words seem to represent it quite well: "Dungeon bash."

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 13:48
And there comes the real question. Was it real or not? How much do you believe the literal approach to the mythology and how much of it only encodes a fragment of the reality? As you see, Rockerfella accepts it all (seemingly).

Well, not entirely. I've flrited with the notion that the blade wraiths were in fact a 100 awesome star ships too you know? :rolleyes: But, i'm guessing an altercation probably did occur between the Bringer and Khaine. Khaine was the god of war and so i'm guessing did lots of Warring (it follows...really). If he was around in the WIH, and after plenty of deliberation, i've come to my own personal conclusion that some physical manifestation of Khaine fought the bringer, somewhere.

I also remember reading (i'm sure this was some time ago) that Khaine managed to somehow 'dump' a mountain on one of the other C'tan. I can't say any more really. Thats all i remember.





Started downloading it within about five minutes of noticing that it was up, and that was seemingly 5-10 minutes after it was put up. ;)


Aye, two words seem to represent it quite well: "Dungeon bash."

Kage

What is this? Cheers!

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 14:18
Well, not entirely. I've flrited with the notion that the blade wraiths were in fact a 100 awesome star ships too you know? :rolleyes:
Well, you know what I mean. You've considered the options and decided that you prefer the literal translation. I, on the other hand, still swing from one to the other. I can fully explain the mythical approach, and feel comfortable doing so with the whole 'avatar' approach, but there are some things that just come off as... lame. In my eyes, of course. The contamination of Khaine is one of those things that I am inclined to shift towards a non-literal approach.


But, i'm guessing an altercation probably did occur between the Bringer and Khaine.
Nyurgle. Yeah, I know. With the caveat, at least for me, that it was an avatar and not really a fully manifested god (!).

What is really interesting to speculate is the nature of the relationship between the host and their god, remnants of any abilities from their time spent as an avatar, etc. This is most interesting with the gods other than Khaine, though most notably Vaul.

With that said, I'm tempted to drop the swords as being literal swords. The idea of magic versus technology, while fun, sticks in my craw a bit. Well, not just swords. At the very least they are Force Weapons but the chances are that they are much, much more. Oh, and they weren't wearing "elven chain" either. ;)


I also remember reading (i'm sure this was some time ago) that Khaine managed to somehow 'dump' a mountain on one of the other C'tan. I can't say any more really. Thats all i remember.
Cannot remember that one, but I would be more than happy with a non-literal translation for that one. Those martial beggars don't (GW style) normally go too much down the magic route. :D


What is this? Cheers!
Shattered Hopes is the free, Dark Heresy adventure that was released for some of the recent gaming conferences (e.g. GenCon), and BI recently released on its website for free download. Not the best opening product, but it is free and it was produced for conference play with all the implications of limited time, etc. Still, they could have done a better job at making 40k unique, rather than just WFRP "wid gunz". :eyebrows:

Kage

Hellebore
06-09-2007, 14:24
I don't see why they should, if a ruleset works, then it works.

Just as you yourself use GURPS all the time for everything Kage, I think the D100 WFRP system works for everything as well.

I really dislike unique rulesets created just because, the same reason you use GURPS for everything. However, I much prefer a direct percentile system to that of GURPS, so the system used by WFRP and 40kRP are preferred by me.

Hellebore

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 14:34
I don't see why they should, if a ruleset works, then it works.
It wasn't the rules set I was referring to, hellebore, but the post was misleading. Perhaps I should have said "Warhammer 'wid guns'"? I know they needed a simple adventure, but there are ways that you could reinforce that it is a different product than WFRP. Yet they didn't really break the "dungeon bash" mold, which is a crying shame. Again, though, note the caveats that this was a "freebie" product.

(The whole 3d6 thing is one of the things I don't like about GURPS, and I do prefer a percentile system. In fact, the one presented in Dangerous Journeys: Mythus always struck me as easy enough, though perhaps not the way in which you calculated your percentile rating. ;))

No, the fantasy comment was more in the feel and flavour of the demo, rather than anything else. Again, not the system, which as my comments elsewhere have indicated, while I don't like it I also don't find the system to be that significant of a hurdle to interpretation of the 40k universe.

* * * * * * * * *

So, back to the divine, "Fiery Avatars of Khaine" thing. Or at least Khaine-based discussions. :D

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 14:36
Well, you know what I mean. You've considered the options and decided that you prefer the literal translation. I, on the other hand, still swing from one to the other.
I do this too though Kage. In moments of weakness I stumble and i falter. ;) Seriously though, i often get embroiled in the notion of the less literal translations and interpretations. I guess the more literal just sits on my palate sweeter than it does yours.


I can fully explain the mythical approach, and feel comfortable doing so with the whole 'avatar' approach, but there are some things that just come off as... lame. In my eyes, of course. The contamination of Khaine is one of those things that I am inclined to shift towards a non-literal approach. This is something that didn't sit on my palate too well. I just couldn't understand, j or comprehend how or why a warp god could get infected in such a way, unless the avatar 'csaing' was some sort of artificial intelligence or suit that incorporated programmed systems.



Nyurgle. Yeah, I know. With the caveat, at least for me, that it was an avatar and not really a fully manifested god (!). Totally.


What is really interesting to speculate is the nature of the relationship between the host and their god, remnants of any abilities from their time spent as an avatar, etc. This is most interesting with the gods other than Khaine, though most notably Vaul. for sure. Are you suggesting that the host (post avatar) is possibly an 'ascended' or superior version of its previous self? I guess thats one way of looking at it. There's always the idea that the host is simply left as a gibbering wreck, or destroyed totally, theri spirit and soul joining with their god.


With that said, I'm tempted to drop the swords as being literal swords. The idea of magic versus technology, while fun, sticks in my craw a bit. Well, not just swords. At the very least they are Force Weapons but the chances are that they are much, much more. Oh, and they weren't wearing "elven chain" either. ;)

Well, if Vaul were able to create wraith weapons (wraith cannons) during the war in heaven, there's nothing to suggest that the wraithblades weren't some kind of advances wraith projectile type weapon. Sure, the notion of the 100 fighing off a horde of necrons with swords appeals to my 'Gene Kelly' side, but i do find it rather hard to swallow too. I guess its possible the swords were in fact projectile weapons, or beam weapons of immense power. Again, the 100 could have been Khaines last fleet of uber star setroyer type vessels.

Gah, I don't know. Not made my mind up yet.



Cannot remember that one, but I would be more than happy with a non-literal translation for that one. Those martial beggars don't (GW style) normally go too much down the magic route. :D Well, yeah. Having a giant bloke pick up a mountain and slam dunk it on the Dragosn forehead seems a little, jason and the arganoughties really.



Shattered Hopes ..... Cheers!

MrBigMr
06-09-2007, 14:39
Long answer:
version a) when they fought against each other, they reached a stallmate. Khaine (back then in aspect of Avenger i presume) couldn't overcome the opponent, but in the end he drove the tip of his death-bringing spear through Nightbringer's head. C'tan's Necrodermis then exploded and shards of it pierced Khaine's mortal form. From then on, this Necrodermis (designed to house vital energy of powerful entities) followed the Khaine's essence even in Warp. When he was summoned into an avatar, his essence was bound to the living metal shell. So it formed a Deamonhost or rather a Daemon engine to contain fragment of Khaine's essence, and we all know that when a Warp entity possesses a material object, interesting side effects occur. In this case it is the flame and molten metal, reflecting nasty character of Khaine. Exactly that happened when Khaine was defeated by Slaanesh: he manifested himself into Necrodermis shells across the Craftworlds, except he couldn't gather back the energy, because he was "banished" from Warp.
This is an assumption in many places, but it can be also explained in some other ways.
Why does this sound like a copy of my theory...?

But anyways, like I said, my theory is in those lines.

Khaine fought Nightbringer and pierced the Necrodermis. I've heard two versions on what happened next. In one Nightbringer ejected himself out of the Necrodermis due to it being breached and he would suffer a massive psychic blast. As the Nightbringer exited, the Necrodermis sucked Khaine in and the whole thing was destroyed there by Warp energies, but shards were left behind.
In the other version Nightbringer exited just in time as Khaine blasted the Necrodermis into pieces and those shards were embedded into the gods physical manifestation.

As Necrodermis is able to phase and contain energy, it stuck with Khaine (being too small to take him in fully, but enough to stick) and when ever he would enter the Warp into the emotional god form, the Necrodermis would phase, avoiding being destroyed by the Warp energies but also keeping up with Khaine. This would make the taint. A pure Warp entity plagued by a physical manifestation of the enemy, a pure material being.

When Slaanesh busted Khaine, the energy didn't spread through the Warp and get sucked up, but instead in smaller pieces the shards of Necrodermis would have been able to suck the bits of energy into them.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

There are some evidence to back it up, but nothing concrete. But give me a 100% verified, indisputable piece of fluff and I shall crown thou a king among fools.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 14:48
I guess the more literal just sits on my palate sweeter than it does yours.
It's only the idea that it reinforces the "high fantasy" approach, and that technology is just an awkward, intermediate phase that you go through before "ascension" to the divine. I like my 40k sci-fi/fantasy, not basically D&D's "Tablets of Fate" where the gods go to war! ;)


or comprehend how or why a warp god could get infected in such a way, unless the avatar 'csaing' was some sort of artificial intelligence or suit that incorporated programmed systems.
Well, if the "living metal" is based on nanotechnology, there's no reason that it would need artificial intelligence to interact with. Consider Bear's Blood Work, or even the 'fantasy' sci-fi Cybergeneration with its variant of living metal (hexite).

Also, even if it was some form of suit, that would mesh with some of the older 'fluff' that described "avatars" as advanced battlesuits. They've just been hanging around for millions of years ( :rolleyes: ) until the Fall and the shattering of Khaine, at which point they were re-invested with the weakened power of the god.

Even then, the effect on the god is going to be minimal. And by minimal I mean non-existent. Well, unless you go with MrBigMr's "Guyver" approach to it.


Totally.
Which is one of the reasons that, despite the intriguing possibilities of the above, I'm more enamoured of the idea that Khaine's "shard of power" became invested in the body of an Eldar. Initially it was changed by the power of Khaine, but after that it became integrated within the Craftworld's Infinity Circuit, changing form and substance until quickened once again by the spirit of Khaine.

Again, though, therein lies my bias. The Eldar straddle the divide of the C'tan and the Old Ones, technology and 'magic,' in a bastardised form: technomancy. They are impure, I suppose you could say.


Are you suggesting that the host (post avatar) is possibly an 'ascended' or superior version of its previous self?
Well, to be honest I'm not sure. I do, however, have trouble with the literal translation that Vaul forged the Talismans, or the Swords or whatever. It's a bit too D&D again.


There's always the idea that the host is simply left as a gibbering wreck, or destroyed totally, theri spirit and soul joining with their god.
There is that, though there was a description of "lines" of individuals that were able to summon forth the "Aethyr gods." Of course, sacrificing a sun to the gods is entirely appropriate, and evocative of the way of waking Khaine for the current Craftworld Eldar, so there is a power in both options.


Well, if Vaul were able to create wraith weapons (wraith cannons) during the war in heaven, there's nothing to suggest that the wraithblades weren't some kind of advances wraith projectile type weapon.
And there it is again. A god creating material weapons. It's just rubs me the wrong way. Sure, you can go down the wraithbone route but it does seem like a bit (huge!) cop out.


Again, the 100 could have been Khaines last fleet of uber star setroyer type vessels.
I'm guessing that when you think of one of the swords you're meant to think of the blade mentioned in Farseer. :rolleyes: ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
06-09-2007, 15:11
Well, to be honest I'm not sure. I do, however, have trouble with the literal translation that Vaul forged the Talismans, or the Swords or whatever. It's a bit too D&D again. So, where do you draw the line between a literal, non literal and then 'well it didn't happen at all' type stance. If (to you) Vaul didn't 'forge' the talismans, what then did he do? If he didn't create the BladeWraiths, what did he do? He might as well have never existed in the firstplace.

Did he somehow communicate to the Eldar the ways and means to develop the weapons themselves? That seems plausible to me. Or did he somehow manipulate the materium and simply 'possess' an 'avatar' and show them physically how its all done?



There is that, though there was a description of "lines" of individuals that were able to summon forth the "Aethyr gods." Of course, sacrificing a sun to the gods is entirely appropriate, and evocative of the way of waking Khaine for the current Craftworld Eldar, so there is a power in both options.

The last two beings able to summon the gods being Eldanesh and whats his face. If they were summoned in the first place. This always opens the can of the Eldar gods being 'ascended' old ones, or however you prefer it, with Eldanesh being some kind of envoy or whatever equivelant you can think of.

At this point, it gets terribly grey to me and i struggle to focus my thoughts. That could be a Doncaster thing too.... ;)




I'm guessing that when you think of one of the swords you're meant to think of the blade mentioned in Farseer. :rolleyes: ;)

Kage


Going to have to help me with this one. Iv'e not yet read Farseer, although i'd like to. Same with Shadowpoint. Unfortunately, i've no idea what the swords are like in this book!!

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 15:29
So, where do you draw the line between a literal, non literal and then 'well it didn't happen at all' type stance.
I cannot draw a line in the sand and say, "Beyond this point I shall not go." I'm just extremely resistant to the "swords 'n' sorcery" approach as the reality of the situation. Figuring out the benefits of taking on the power of a god - becoming an avatar - is a part of that.


If (to you) Vaul didn't 'forge' the talismans, what then did he do?
That's the question, isn't it. Why would a being of the warp - a being forged by the minds of the Eldar in the realm of the irrational - have any more advanced knowledge of technology? Again, though, this is a part of where I would consider the boundaries blurred and why I would want to delve into interpretation of the phenomenon. Otherwise we're back into D&D territory and it being just a big magic artefact... or somesuch.

The crossover that the mythology creates, well, creates some interpretative difficulties. ;)


This always opens the can of the Eldar gods being 'ascended' old ones...
I'm not even going to bother with that one. That way lies conspiracy theories and mentions of that thrice-damned "tablet" from Xenology.


That could be a Doncaster thing too.... ;)
LOL!


Going to have to help me with this one. Iv'e not yet read Farseer, although i'd like to. Same with Shadowpoint. Unfortunately, i've no idea what the swords are like in this book!!
It's described as being a fragment of the power of the god itself, or something like that.

Kage

Captain Stern
06-09-2007, 16:38
Kage2020: I'm more enamoured of the idea that Khaine's "shard of power" became invested in the body of an Eldar. Initially it was changed by the power of Khaine, but after that it became integrated within the Craftworld's Infinity Circuit, changing form and substance until quickened once again by the spirit of Khaine.

Are you refering to this:


... Eventually the rage of the Blood God and the passion of the Lord of Pleasure were exhausted, and the boundaries between them were established. Like a leaf in the eye of a hurrican, Kaela Mensha Khaine fell among the calm, down through the Realm of Chaos and into the material universe. As he entered the material universe he divided into many shards of energy, scattering his power so that neither Khorne nor Slaanesh could ever find him again. Each shard entered the body of an Eldar, filling the body with his own mind, possessing it, so that it became a virtually indestructible blood-lusting murderer - the material manifestation of the Bloody Handed God. These are the Avatars of the Bloody Handed God...

From WD127, p26

?

As far as I know, I don't think the nature of the Avatars has ever been revealed in such detail as in this issue of White Dwarf.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 17:06
Yes, that was what I was referring to. The alternative approaches to an entity called the "avatar" came from earlier sources. I forget the source, but I believe it was in the Epic/Space Marine material...


The ultimate examples of Eldar meshing with Spirit Stones is that of the creatures called Avatars. Every craft world has a number of Avatars, battle-suits built around a Spirit Stone housing the idealized spirit of an Eldar principle. Such stones contain only the parts of consciousness that most embody an aspect of the Eldar character. An Eldar who becomes an Avatar melds his own personality with the idealized spirit of a racial principle, becoming a living manifestation of that attitude of the Eldar character. Once an Eldar has donned the suit of an Avatar, he and the Spirit Stone are united until he dies, the Eldar simply forgets he has his own personality and becomes enmeshed within the single-minded thoughts of the Avatar. Upon death, the Eldar's own spirit passes into the stone and awaits a new Avatar. The Avatars are important to the Eldar, they are living virtues, the embodiment of what they see as worthy about their race. The Avatars are the most important occupants of a craft world.
So originally it came off as what we would now think of as an Exarch and a bit more. Just mentioning it for completeness since it might help Rockerfella's suggestions posted above.

Kage

Idaan
06-09-2007, 20:03
Why does this sound like a copy of my theory...?
:eek:
Strange things tend to happen when lots of people from all around the world start discussing a one page short-story written as a commercial of little plastic soldiers.
On the other hand it is possible that when I was lurking in these forums before the release of the new Eldar codex I looked into the Background section and read some Khaine-related thread with your post in it and it just got me thinking, without remembering who wrote it. I just can't remember right now where I got this theory.


Also, even if it was some form of suit, that would mesh with some of the older 'fluff' that described "avatars" as advanced battlesuits. They've just been hanging around for millions of years ( ) until the Fall and the shattering of Khaine, at which point they were re-invested with the weakened power of the god.
But the beauty of the "belief shapes the reality" stuff is that there is no need for the suits to stay in Materium since WiH. It is entirely possible for them to have been destroyed at some point. Once they and their interaction with Warp potential of Khaine was encoded into the Eldar minds and mythic cycles, they could've been easily replicated by the sheer psychic pressure. When they believed that he'd manifest in this way, they forced him to do so.

And if you don't believe in this theory, it was also entirely possible for the Eldar (be it post-Fall or post-WiH) to somehow replicate the Necrodermis/Old-one-created shell with their current technology. For all we know, they were pretty good at replicating other races technology and adapting it to their way of doing things: building of the Webway, construction of Wraith-knights, etc.
So while it was possible that during and after the WiH Khaine was summoned into "inherited" dermis (or whatever material it was), but after it was lost during some cataclysm (like Enslaver plague) or just in mists of time, it was replicated, operating on different principle but to the same end.


That's the question, isn't it. Why would a being of the warp - a being forged by the minds of the Eldar in the realm of the irrational - have any more advanced knowledge of technology? Again, though, this is a part of where I would consider the boundaries blurred and why I would want to delve into interpretation of the phenomenon. Otherwise we're back into D&D territory and it being just a big magic artefact... or somesuch.
Because a being created from desire of knowledge would desire knowledge too? And even as the Aethyr gods aren't omniscient, there are enough ways for them to aquire this knowledge. I think there was something in MvS' timeline about Vaul wanting the secrets of Necron tech to the point of plotting with the Deceiver against the Dragon to get them.
Other thing is that Liber Chaotica has gods as sentient warp-weapons. While it is possible that this was the case with Khaine, Kurnous, even Morai-Heg, Vaul seems to be more like sentient data-bank, a more advanced and sophisticated form of Ork genetic memory (bleh:rolleyes:), imbued with knowledge coming from Old Ones themselves.
So I believe that he had at least a hand in their construction. Not necessarily was it him forging them literally, because it brings a mental image of a giant Hephastaeus with pointy ears floating in space and knocking together the Talismans with a hammer of considerable size. And that is something I want to avoid.;)

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 23:08
But the beauty of the "belief shapes the reality" stuff is that there is no need for the suits to stay in Materium since WiH.
Nyargle... Orks! Argh! Orks! Make the bad man go away, Rockerfella. :cries:

<hides>

Seriously, though, the above is in my mind best retooled as the "shard in Eldar meld with Infinity Circuit" approach. No reference to living metal is required. Thankfully.


I think there was something in MvS' timeline about Vaul wanting the secrets of Necron tech to the point of plotting with the Deceiver against the Dragon to get them.
The one problem that I have with MvS's timeline - and it should be clear that I respect MvS - is that it buys into what I consider the already problematic timeline.


...Vaul seems to be more like sentient data-bank, a more advanced and sophisticated form of Ork genetic memory (bleh:rolleyes:), imbued with knowledge coming from Old Ones themselves.
And doesn't this make you think of the word 'contrived?' Again, though, I'm resistant against the idea that the "Old Ones/C'tan did it!" is the answer to all problems with the 'fluff'.

My bad. :D

Kage