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bertcom1
06-09-2007, 11:08
A thread mentioned that SoB recruits might well be very young.

But is that necessarily the case?

Female orphans in the Schola Progenium are often sent to the SoB, but is it beyond reason that there are adult recruits from the wider populace?

E.g. An Imperial woman is going about her normal business, when she suddenly feels divinely inspired, and asks the SoB at the cathedral if she can join their Order.

Obviously, adult recruits need to be fairly young, so as to be in sufficient physical condition for rigorous military training, and they need to be well versed in the Imperial faith.

pookie
06-09-2007, 11:26
I dont see why not, its not as tho SoB have to be genetically engineered like Sm are, i suppose the younger they are the greater the chance the will take on the 'faith' more readily as they know no diffrent.

Orthodox
06-09-2007, 11:51
Then what's the point of cadets? I'd die if I didn't live in an institutionally stratified society. "Imperial citizens" are commoners in a vassal state, it bothers me that they could have access to the civil service class.

They aren't illiterate serfs, so they could conceivably use holy orders as a backdoor to social mobility. That has been the case in the past, but if the Ministorum controls the schola, it might give those former peasants/laborers/shopkeepers access to the entire administrative and warrior classes. I suppose it's good talent recruitment, but yuck!

grickherder
06-09-2007, 16:05
Is there any actual fluff about the recruiting of the Sisters? There would certainly be enough female orphans in the Imperium. Millions of them given how big the guard is an how it uses a meatgrinder approach which accepts high casaulties.

In one way, we can actually look at the stats for a little info on this. They are as well trained in close combat and marksmanship as storm troopers and even space marines (but the Space Marine's genetically engineered strength and toughness make a big difference).

My speculation about how long it would take to train a young woman into an elite fighter from a young age leads me to believe that most Sisters probably see their first combat around 18-20. The pictures of the sisters without helmets sometimes look fairly young as well. The more battle hardened ones still have the look of under 30 about them.

But do we have any real source material to go on?

Cherubael
06-09-2007, 18:33
Appearance shouldnt really be relied on to judge the age of active Sisters. Fluffwise, they most likely would have access to juvenat drugs and so could be hundreds of years old and yet retain their youthful looks - an example of this would be Bequin in the Eisenhorn trilogy, looks like shes in her thirties despite being almost two hundred.

The real life reason for their youthful looks is this is a game that has a significant bias towards male players, and most would rather see sexy nuns with guns, than withered old crones.

Recruitment wise, i'd imagine that along with the orphans a significant proportion of Nobles send the daughters they cant marry off to join a convent.

precinctomega
06-09-2007, 19:52
The Schola Progenium is a network of semi-independent schools and orphanages that enjoy favoured status with the major organisations of the Imperium such that their graduates often gain accelerated entry, or exclusive access to certain bodies.

The Adepta Sororitas is one body that enjoys a particularly favoured relationship with the Schola Progenium. As a part of the Ecclesiarchy itself and, being an organisation with a immensely broad range of needs and requirements - Militant, Dialogos, Familiar and Hospitaller - it is little surprise that we see very few females in the other branches tha recruit from the Progenium, such as the Arbites, Commissariat and Stormtrooper Regiments. Any female who shows even the slightest promise will be ring-fenced for the Sororitas unless there are pressing reasons to the contrary.

There is no reason to believe that walk-in recruits to the Sororitas aren't possible. In fact, it would be entirely to be expected if the Orders Familiar ran their own convents for young girls who seek to take holy orders or merely wish to escape from a life of deprivation and poverty. But as the Schola Progenium graduates tend to be widely-educated and spiritually dedicated as well as possessing a broad military grounding, it is reasonable to conclude that the vast majority of sisters in the Orders Militant come via the Scholae.

R.

CELS
06-09-2007, 21:12
Appearance shouldnt really be relied on to judge the age of active Sisters. Fluffwise, they most likely would have access to juvenat drugs and so could be hundreds of years old and yet retain their youthful looks - an example of this would be Bequin in the Eisenhorn trilogy, looks like shes in her thirties despite being almost two hundred.
Juvenat drugs are very expensive though, especially the good stuff. It's probably not worth the cost for Adeptas Sororitas, since they're basically just devoted and skilled warriors. Devoted and skilled warriors are a dime a dozen in the Imperium :p

And yeah, I agree that they would have to be recruited young, because they would be recruited from the Schola Progenium. The reasons an "Imperial woman who suddenly feels divinely inspired" wouldn't join the Adeptas Sororitas are;
1) The Sororitas recruit from the Schola Progenium, and that's a VIP club.
2) Your average Imperial woman wasn't trained to fight from a young age, nor was she indoctrinated into Imperial faith in the same way as graduates from the Schola Progenium.
3) The Adeptas Sororitas have very few warriors at their disposal, due to the fact that the Imperium is very suspicious of Ministorum-controlled armies. Because the Sisters of Battle are so few, the competition is obviously very tough. With so many billions of faithful worshippers in the Imperium, how many families would want one of their young girls to be a Sister of Battle? The ones that are actually picked would have to be extremely talented, and thus probably trained/brainwashed from early childhood.

bertcom1
06-09-2007, 22:01
What about the non-militant Orders of the Adepta Sororitas? Dialogous, Famulous and Hospitaller.

CELS
06-09-2007, 22:12
The same arguments apply, but replace "fighting" with "knowledge about medicine, language, diplomacy, etc". But really, it's a matter of tradition as much as anything else, in my opinion.

Orthodox
07-09-2007, 04:54
The Schola Progenium is a network of semi-independent schools and orphanages that enjoy favoured status with the major organisations of the Imperium such that their graduates often gain accelerated entry, or exclusive access to certain bodies.
Stock Answer.

Real Answer:

1) The Sororitas recruit from the Schola Progenium, and that's a VIP club.
Progenae are the children :rolleyes: of Adepts. Their parents are commissars, inquisitors, and oh yeah: the thousands of Administratum and Munitorium managers. They form an administrative overclass which sustains itself through a cadre system managed by the Ministorum. The schola isn't just a creche to baby sit for storm troopers, it's a centralizing method of controlling the upper class so that there will be no "nobility" which has political or ideological independence. The rule-proving exception is the notoriously independent Mechanicus.


Recruitment wise, i'd imagine that along with the orphans a significant proportion of Nobles send the daughters they cant marry off to join a convent.
There are no such applicable things as nobles. There may be figures with social or political position on their world, but their status is not Imperial. The Imperium is a technocracy, its elites are an administrative class of Adepts.

It used to be that Astartes were only Adepts if they administered their home systems, (ultramarines) which meant implied direct Imperial rule instead of being farmed out to a local politcal figure (governor) or warlord (guard claimaint). The Imperial Commander/Governor is a political figure who is supported by the Imperium only so far as he is accountable to them for reliable tithing and doctrinal conformity.

The_Patriot
07-09-2007, 05:18
Stock Answer.

Real Answer:

Progenae are the children :rolleyes: of Adepts. Their parents are commissars, inquisitors, and oh yeah: the thousands of Administratum and Munitorium managers. They form an administrative overclass which sustains itself through a cadre system managed by the Ministorum. The schola isn't just a creche to baby sit for storm troopers, it's a centralizing method of controlling the upper class so that there will be no "nobility" which has political or ideological independence. The rule-proving exception is the notoriously independent Mechanicus.


There are no such applicable things as nobles. There may be figures with social or political position on their world, but their status is not Imperial. The Imperium is a technocracy, its elites are an administrative class of Adepts.

It used to be that Astartes were only Adepts if they administered their home systems, (ultramarines) which meant implied direct Imperial rule instead of being farmed out to a local politcal figure (governor) or warlord (guard claimaint). The Imperial Commander/Governor is a political figure who is supported by the Imperium only so far as he is accountable to them for reliable tithing and doctrinal conformity.

Also the Schola Progenium contains all the Ecclessiarchy orphanages. Most of the Sisters of Battle are orphans if I recall correctly.

Orthodox
07-09-2007, 06:29
correctly Talent search OK

That's bad information. The place you recall it from is consensus assumption. What you're doing is propagating to your area of immediate social influence the assumption that it's the entirety of truth.

That's the principle of the schola progena. In fake-latin, it translates to (cadet) school for offspring. It's for training offspring, not children. Children are juveniles: offspring are scions who need to be indoctrinated. The progena's families are made dependent on the Imperium for their status. They devote all their energy to imperial service and not dynastic aspiration. There's no political function for orphanage schola, but there are billions of orphans.

There are billions of orphans in orphanages. Most orphanages are characteristically religious institutions, because that's in the social domain of religious establishment. Most of those orphans will grow up to be regular peons, and are not cadets in any way.

Children raised entirely in institutional environments are vulnerable to emotional instability and developmental problems. They aren't necessarily suitable as officers. The orphanages cannot be more than sub-planetary ecclesiarchal organizations, so even exceptional candidates wouldn't have access to Schola recruitment. (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=biscuit+dog&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)

The_Patriot
07-09-2007, 06:41
correctly Talent search OK

That's bad information. The place you recall it from is consensus assumption. What you're doing is propagating to your area of immediate social influence the assumption that it's the entirety of truth.

That's the principle of the schola progena. In fake-latin, it translates to (cadet) school for offspring. It's for training offspring, not children. Children are juveniles: offspring are scions who need to be indoctrinated. The progena's families are made dependent on the Imperium for their status. They devote all their energy to imperial service and not dynastic aspiration. There's no political function for orphanage schola, but there are billions of orphans.

There are billions of orphans in orphanages. Most orphanages are characteristically religious institutions, because that's in the social domain of religious establishment. Most of those orphans will grow up to be regular peons, and are not cadets in any way.

Children raised entirely in institutional environments are vulnerable to emotional instability and developmental problems. They aren't necessarily suitable as officers. The orphanages cannot be more than sub-planetary ecclesiarchal organizations, so even exceptional candidates wouldn't have access to Schola recruitment. (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=biscuit+dog&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)

Which completely contradicts Codex: Sisters of Battle since it states, "The Schola Progenium is responsible for the care and eduction of orphans of Imperial servants."

In order to be in the Schola Progenium one must first be an orphan.

Kegluneq
07-09-2007, 07:23
Which completely contradicts Codex: Sisters of Battle since it states, "The Schola Progenium is responsible for the care and eduction of orphans of Imperial servants."

In order to be in the Schola Progenium one must first be an orphan.
Erm, no, it just means that orphans are one type of person educated in the SP. It doesn't state that they're the only type.

The_Patriot
07-09-2007, 07:35
Erm, no, it just means that orphans are one type of person educated in the SP. It doesn't state that they're the only type.

Actually it does state that orphans are the only type. There are other schools in the Imperium, but the Schola Progenium is only for orphans of Imperial servants.

Orthodox
07-09-2007, 08:03
the Schola Progenium contains all the Ecclessiarchy orphanages.


The Schola Progenium is responsible for the care and eduction of orphans of Imperial servants.
Fact: orphans suffer from prenatal vitamin D deficiency: reducing birth weight and impeding physical development.

Fact: Imperial servants are all board-certified obstetricians and nutritionists. Their babies all weigh 10+ pounds and have perfect scores for SAT II: music theory, because they are not autistic.

Your quote isn't comprehensive and your post is untrue.

RexTalon
08-09-2007, 03:23
LOL! Orthodox, you crack me up!

Needs moar random links though.:D

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 03:32
With the sort of indoctrination needed to create a REAL Sister of Battle, I wouldn't be surprised in the least damn bit if they only accepted orphans, it wouldn't even surprise me if they only accepted orphans say under the age of 5 or so.

Much like the Jedi.

I'm sure there are more "normal" convents in the Imperium for women who want to become Nuns of the Imperial Faith. It isn't as though the SoBs are THE only outlet for women's spirituality in the Imperium, its just they are the only ones we read about because its a wargame and not a world building exercise.

CELS
08-09-2007, 17:38
Progenae are the children :rolleyes: of Adepts.
Might I trouble you for a source? Personally, I also work with the assumption that the Schola Progenium schools children besides orphans, but it would be nice to see it confirmed by GW.


There are no such applicable things as nobles. There may be figures with social or political position on their world, but their status is not Imperial. The Imperium is a technocracy, its elites are an administrative class of Adepts.
Just because nobles aren't featured in the fluff doesn't mean they don't exist though. Indeed, I find it quite interesting to assume that they do exist, and to couple this with modelling the Imperium after ancient Rome to a large degree :) (An idea Kage2020 should be credited for, eventhough GW has also clearly thought along those lines)

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 17:39
Just because nobles aren't featured in the fluff doesn't mean they don't exist though. Indeed, I find it quite interesting to assume that they do exist, and to couple this with modelling the Imperium after ancient Rome to a large degree :) (An idea Kage2020 should be credited for, eventhough GW has also clearly thought along those lines)


Well...yeah there are nobles. Read the whole story with Ragnar Blackmane on Terra.

The Three eyed Navigators are about the wealthiest and most influential people in the Imperium.

CELS
08-09-2007, 17:42
Ah, indeed. It has been a while since I read that story. And you're quite correct, the Navigators fit the bill quite well, but does GW actually say that they are nobles and that their nobility is recognised by the Imperium? I suppose you'll answer this by pointing me to Wolf Blade again. :D I may very well read it again some time, but not any time soon.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 17:43
Ah, indeed. It has been a while since I read that story. And you're quite correct, the Navigators fit the bill quite well, but does GW actually say that they are nobles and that their nobility is recognised by the Imperium? I suppose you'll answer this by pointing me to Wolf Blade again. :D I may very well read it again some time, but not any time soon.


They are called the Navis Nobilite I believe...so...pretty much yeah.

CELS
08-09-2007, 17:58
A fair enough argument :) Did Wolf Blade also mention other nobles, outside of the Ktowtf? (Again, I can't be bothered flipping through the entire novel for information, and it's been a while since I've read it)

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 17:59
A fair enough argument :) Did Wolf Blade also mention other nobles, outside of the Ktowtf? (Again, I can't be bothered flipping through the entire novel for information, and it's been a while since I've read it)

Not really, AFAIK. For a world the size of Terra, the book was narrow in focus.

However, if there were other Nobles in the Imperium (big time nobles) you can bet Earth is where you would find them.

CELS
08-09-2007, 18:06
Well, it's definitely where you'd find most of them. But you just might see some on other worlds in the Imperium, offered the position of Imperial Commander, and some might be zooming around the galaxy beyond (Rogue Traders are pretty close to being nobles, really, even if you just look at the letter of the 'fluff'')

Sojourner
08-09-2007, 18:14
There are other schools in the Imperium, but the Schola Progenium is only for orphans of Imperial servants.

That was not my interpretation. I read it as most/all orphans of Adeptus members are sent to the Schola Progenium, but not all students of the Schola Progenium are orphans. The main point to this is: Why? Why should only orphans join, since it's implied that the Schola Progenium is the sole recruitment channel for, at the very least, Stormtroopers and Commissars?

As for the Adepta Sororitas - I can imagine that joining as a young adult is possible, but exceptionally rare. First, you'd need the consent of the Abbess who would not be inclined to give it except when she likes you. Second, it's extremely unlikely that an ordinary citizen, raised as a layperson, would have the combination of spiritual purity and fortitude to be a Battle Sister. Fanaticism does not a Sister make - one also needs the temperance to be able to obey and give orders.

I just had - as an aside, a fascinating image of a situation where a lone sister happens to be the only clergyperson available to a large number of lay citizens, and is demanded to preach an impromptu sermon. Totally out of her depth, but duty demands it.

Bonus if she's hot.

bertcom1
08-09-2007, 18:23
Define what you mean by "Noble"?

The Navigators form an institution, consisting of the Navigator Great Families. Their special talents are only sustained through interbreeding within the families.

It seems the Navis Nobilite as an institution was created by the Emperor, although the families existed a long time before.

The Navis Nobilite therefore is an Imperial institution, performing a vital role for the Imperium, with certain rights and responsibilities for its members.

But how is that different from other Imperial institutions e.g. the Ecclesiarchy, none of which could be considered nobility?

CELS
08-09-2007, 18:28
I just had - as an aside, a fascinating image of a situation where a lone sister happens to be the only clergyperson available to a large number of lay citizens, and is demanded to preach an impromptu sermon. Totally out of her depth, but duty demands it.
Bonus if she's hot.
And she might say; "I personally believe that some Imperial citizens out there don't have litany books and I believe that our education such as the Ultima Macharia and the Eye of Terror, everywhere, like, such as, and I believe that our education over here, in the Imperium, should help the Imperium, or should help the Ultima Macharia and other worlds in Ultima Segmentum so we will be able to build up our future.. for.."

Sojourner
08-09-2007, 18:36
CELS wins the thread.

Wastes train, toot toot...

Orthodox
09-09-2007, 15:40
Might I trouble you for a source? Personally, I also work with the assumption that the Schola Progenium schools children besides orphans, but it would be nice to see it confirmed by GW.
If the schola cadets are progena, that doesn't mean they're juveniles. It means that they're somebody's issue. There isn't any progeny without the parents. They can't come along on crusade, maybe to the accounts receivable department, but not every posting.

What else could happen to the children of adepts? Most of them can hardly live on the ancestral county seat. That's why there can be no applicable nobility. The navigators and rogue traders have their own fiefs, because they're ennobled. They don't come from Schola, they're not bound to the Ministorum in that way. They're not employees of the Imperium, they are actual entities whose ennoblement is a recognition of their political strength.

A commissar, confessor, or judge doesn't own anything and has no personal vassals. I keep using the word cadet, because a cadet is an officer in training. They're not Barons in training. Barons aren't trained, they're born, or they're individually ennobled. They have to be individuals influential enough in their own right that their sovereign needs them on his side, and not in competition.


Just because nobles aren't featured in the fluff doesn't mean they don't exist though. Indeed, I find it quite interesting to assume that they do exist, and to couple this with modelling the Imperium after ancient Rome to a large degree :) (An idea Kage2020 should be credited for, eventhough GW has also clearly thought along those lines)
There may be (there are) nobles, but they don't come from the Progena. The Imperial nobility is only Roman Patrician if the nobles have voting rights.

There's no indication that the Adepta are anything but top-down bureaucracies. If you like, the adepts can be baronets. They are hereditary knights; but a knight is a person ennobled for service, a retainer. The imperium trains adepts to do its work, not to coopt their dynastic ambitions or empower an ally. There are more than just upper and lower classes.

Wikipedia says they're called Ritter. Whatev.


And she might say; "I personally believe that some Imperial citizens out there don't have litany books and I believe that our education such as the Ultima Macharia and the Eye of Terror, everywhere, like, such as, and I believe that our education over here, in the Imperium, should help the Imperium, or should help the Ultima Macharia and other worlds in Ultima Segmentum so we will be able to build up our future.. for.."
hoshit, what's a beauty queen? When the county fair has a king of fools or paupers, or whatever, what's that. Right, someone who controls some kind of special property of beauty or popularity, but is otherwise impotent.

precinctomega
09-09-2007, 15:43
It is true that, in the extant canon, it is said that the Schola Progenium (note spelling, you lot) is for the orphans of Imperial servants. However, a number of things would indicate that - whilst this may well be the ideal and aspiration - it is patently not going to be universally true.

First, that the Imperium - for all its incompetence - is notoriously jealous of its talent. There are a number of ways that the Imperium could take on talented individuals without involving the Schola Progenium, but using the Schola Progenium is the path of least resistance.

Second, that the Imperium is fundamentally incompetent, so identifying individuals as orphans when they aren't or as not orphans when they are is highly likely and the standards are likely to vary from one world to another. For example, some worlds may be matriarchal, making children orphans only when their mothers are deceased. Others may be based on communal nurseries without dedicated parental figures - in this case, children are likely to be moved into the Schola Progenium based on merit. In others, a child may qualify immediately for "orphan" status if their parent has been drafted to the Imperial Guard.

Thirdly, the Imperium is notoriously corrupt. If the Schola Progenium offers a fast-track to the high road of Imperial leadership, then it isn't hard to believe that some scholae will accept admissions on receipt of a suitably generous donation, irrespective of parental status.

Fourth, the demand for manpower from organisations like the commissariat, stormtrooper regiments, adepta sororitas and adeptus arbites is such that restricting selection based on familial status could leave the Imperium with a vital shortfall.

It is best to presume that whilst orphan status grants automatic right of entry to the scholae, it is by no means the only available passage.

I rather like the possibility it offers, wherein the orphan progenii (I know that the official term is progena, but my Latin standards won't accept that) are the favoured students, whilst the unfortunates who have to buy their way in are second-class citizens: inverting the traditional English-Public-School dynamic of rich kids lording it over the poor scholars.

Regards,

R.
(poor scholar)

Orthodox
09-09-2007, 16:01
There are a number of ways that the Imperium could take on talented individuals without involving the Schola Progenium
Where would they be trained? Some kind of academy no doubt. *cough.
Or, I don't know, mid-career MBA.


In others, a child may qualify immediately for "orphan" status if their parent has been drafted to the Imperial Guard.



If the Schola Progenium offers a fast-track to the high road of Imperial leadership
ecole nationale whut? edit: wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d'administration) and wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_%C3%A9cole).
The point is, we're talking about imperial China.


It is best to presume that whilst orphan status grants automatic right of entry to the scholae, it is by no means the only available passage.
how many orphans are stuck in the slums anyway, right


progenii
We're speaking english. This could be the main exposure to latin for somebody, and you don't need to give him partial education. I don't need to see any more posts about computer "virii."

precinctomega
10-09-2007, 10:57
Singluar: progenius. Plural: progenii. Feminine singluar: progenia. Feminine plural: progeniae.

Honestly, though, Orthodox, I haven't a clue what you're on about. Are you disagreeing or agreeing with me?

Other than the Schola Progenium, I would imagine that individual organisations could have their own recruitment and training programmes. The Administratum could be organized on a guild basis, with members (adepts) being allowed to put their children into apprenticeships for various associated trades.

The Adepta Sororitas could operate direct recruitment, much like the Astartes. Aspirant youths could simply report to their nearest cathedral or priory and undergo a barrage of tests and assessments to judge their fitness for novitiate.

But the Schola Progenium is, as mentioned, the "fast track".

R.

DantesInferno
10-09-2007, 11:16
With the sort of indoctrination needed to create a REAL Sister of Battle, I wouldn't be surprised in the least damn bit if they only accepted orphans, it wouldn't even surprise me if they only accepted orphans say under the age of 5 or so.

Much like the Jedi.

I'm sure there are more "normal" convents in the Imperium for women who want to become Nuns of the Imperial Faith. It isn't as though the SoBs are THE only outlet for women's spirituality in the Imperium, its just they are the only ones we read about because its a wargame and not a world building exercise.

The Jedi are maybe not the best example, since they seem to be prepared to break their own rules more often than not...

The difference is that there are way, way more pious females in the Imperium than could fit into the Sororitas (not just the Sisters of Battle, but the other non-militant orders too), so they can afford to be picky in recruiting, and so go for girls they know have been trained and indoctrinated since birth. As Ktotwf points out, there are plenty other outlets for pious women to express their faith in the organised religion of the Imperium.

On the topic of Navigators, I'd recommend <this> (http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/Navigators.pdf).

KurtBielarus
10-09-2007, 11:59
I think that Sisterhood is one the most democratic organisations of the Imperium.

As was Catholic Church during the Middle Ages.

Yes, a seminarist from a noble family had much more opportunities to advance to beсome a bishop or Pope.

But bishops and Popes from the most common families were not unheard of.

-----

As for the Sisterhood - noble families of the Imperium, I think, are reluctant to give their daughters to monasteries forever - much as were medieval feodals.

From the other point of view Sororitas can provide elite general and spiritual education for young noble ladies, preparing them to be decent, pure, clever and strongwilled wifes of nobility. They can even sometimes be used in Inq. retinues and as police forces in the ranks of Militant Orders.

Actually it's a great way for Ecclesiarcy to breed a faithful and strong Imperial nobility.