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7thOffensive
06-09-2007, 19:01
Anybody else getting sick of the same formula for every Horus Heresy book?

It seems really redundant to go through every Chapter's fall with the same basic outline.
1. A few marines are loyalists who question the bad bad lodges
2. Primarch gets fooled into following chaos.
3. The dick head/bloodthristy marines follow their primarch to chaos and give the "good guys" a hard time.
3. Rememberencers take up time and space in the book and are generally annoying.
4. Other guys from other books pop up and say hello!

It seems like they would have other angles to explore, but I'd really rather get on with the flow of the story.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 19:31
I don't know what you're talking about... ;)

Kage

Captain Stern
06-09-2007, 20:05
I know! And to think it started so wonderfully with Horus Rising. I hear Dan Abnett's new book is about some obscure space marine chapter set in 40k..? :cries:

Savior Angel
06-09-2007, 20:10
I think the Horus Heresy Books are fine as they are.

CELS
06-09-2007, 21:01
Yep. I was actually thinking this very same thing today, as I was reading Fulgrim by Graham McNeil. When are Black Library writers going to learn that things that would work well in a big budget movie don't necessarily translate well to novels? Huge Space Marine battles are excellent if you're painting a huge painting, or making an epic movie, but in a book it's just "spraying ichor" "crunching bone" "the crack of the bolter" and "ignoring grievous wounds" ad infinitum. I find myself just skimming past the Space Marine battles, waiting to read about the Primarchs and the remembrancers. Not because the Primarchs and the remembrancers are so well-written, but because those are the only parts with some "intelligent" dialogue beyond "Chaaaaarge!"...

What also annoys me is the extremely indelicate way the authors are trying to connect the dots. It's pretty much like this;
"And then the Emperor's Children fought bravely, whilst their apothecary Fabius healed the wounded while secretly working on a genetic experiment, and Space Wolf Captain Bjorn wondered what it would be like to be in a dreadnought and Abaddon, standing in the background, commented that he wished he could just blow this planet up from orbit with a big space ship."

Yes, Black Library, we get the 'subtle' references. There's no need to cram them down our throat with a plunger.

Kegluneq
06-09-2007, 21:36
I have to agree, I'm kind of struggling to see what else there is to say about the Alpha Legion that isn't already known. Descent of Angels, and Abnett's next offerig may be the only ones to interest me greatly in the future (until we get to the seige of Terra, obviously).

Ktotwf
06-09-2007, 21:37
I think they are good...but that is just my part of it.

I feel like the Remembrancers are going to pay off big time in the end somehow.

CommisarMolotov
06-09-2007, 21:52
They certainly are getting repetitive...

Aflo
06-09-2007, 21:58
Yes, Black Library, we get the 'subtle' references. There's no need to cram them down our throat with a plunger.

The man speaks truth! I am oftens reminded of the 'nudge nudge' monty python scene every time one of those ever so subtle hints is dropped...well maybe not dropped, perhaps thrown down a 60' precipice might be more accurate.

Damien 1427
06-09-2007, 22:03
Trouble is, beyond a few, the Black Library don't exactly have a stellar stable of writers. The fact they keep CS Goto around should tell you something about the quality threshold (i.e, it's low).

Whilst I liked this project in theory ...
Much like I'd like a Heresy-era game based on Epic, because my interpretation of the Primarchs was that they were gifted and talented commanders, but not the walking gods they're portrayed in legend and folklore. I don't care if there's a legend about Leman Russ killing a titan with his bare hands. There's an urban legend about a kid exploding after drinking cola and eating pop rocks at the same time.
... I knew the practice would be terrible, especially when they let all and sundry on board take part.

Oh well, I can only hope they keep Goto locked in a box long enough to finish it, as I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that tells me he'll get a choice section to write.

The pestilent 1
06-09-2007, 23:10
Pbbbt.
I don't read black library books (Or warhammer books full stop) For the intelligent, thought provoking essays on the Fermi Paradox, I read them because **** gets blown up and every now and then an offhand comment or action moves me.

Kage2020
06-09-2007, 23:45
That actually reminds me of a RPG that I was involved in. When faced with narrative description of the events one of the players said, "Shut up and tell me how many dice to roll." Kind of lame, in my mind, but there we go. And thus we're presented with an increasingly formula-derived approach to 'success' of the novels. Ah well.

I really want to see the authors cut loose. That's one of the reasons that I like Watson's Inquisition War. Something actually happened. Can you imagine that? Something changed. It wasn't just all repetition.

Kage

Erebus26
07-09-2007, 00:45
I think the main problem with the HH novels is that we all know whats going to happen in the end! What I liked most about Horus Rising was the portrayal of Horus as a hero of the imperium, and then turning into no. 1 bad guy over the next two books. I can't fault the first three novels - a decent plot and some well written characters. But I found Fulgrim a bit frustrating, I just couldn't get into it very well - it was like the first three HH novels summarised into one volume, except with different characters.

Vesica
07-09-2007, 00:48
How can you complain about the battles, they are only boring if you have no imagination otherwise they are amazing and in your mind you can see what is happening.

I feel pity beyond belief if you lack Imagination on any level.

As for them repeating stuff, so what loads of books follow the same pattern.

Erebus26
07-09-2007, 00:57
Oh I'm not dissing the way the authors are writing the books Vesica, and the battle of Istvaan in GIF was well thought out! I just thought Fulgrim was the same as the first three books - thats what I felt that's all. I will still get the future releases (Legion etc.) though because I like reading about why the traitor legions turned from the Emperor.

thechosenone
07-09-2007, 01:15
I think part of the general compliant that people need to stop and think about is the repetitivness of the falls of legions and the story. You got to remember that Flight of the Eisenstien and Fulgrim are retellings of the original three from different perspectives.

FLight of the Eisenstien was a little on the boring side to be because the Death Guard characters were so drall.

Fulgrim however was a good book. The characters of Saul Taravitz and Eidilon were fun and Eidilon was a great villain. The med ward scenes with Bile were great too. YES all the books are going to deal with good characters combating corruption and running up against bad guys in higher ranks. The Legions fell, we know that and we know there were guys that trie dto prevent it. We are reading their stories.

I think with novels like Legion and Decent of Angels you'll be happy since they are not connected to the Drop Site Massacre and the events that led to them.

Vesica
07-09-2007, 01:20
Good point, I was glad i read Fulgrim as he went from my least like Primarch to my joint first with Sanguinius

Romanus
07-09-2007, 03:18
I thought that wile yes the books follow the same plot stroy, they sort of have to don't they?? Each book covers the fall of each primach and there slow descent into Chaos. So far i'm pretty happy with how the storyline is progressing and while impatient to reach the Siege of Terra, I'll enjoy hte others in the long run and is it gives some background to the myths that we here about.

Cheers, Rom

jfrazell
07-09-2007, 11:49
It needs to move along. We're still stuck at the BEGINNING of the Heresy, with the same beginning battle with xenos/rebels, future bad marines going 'heh heh" and passing badges around, good marines going "waah? whats with the badges?" with really explaining WHY the bad guys are turning into bad guys ( a complaint I had since False Gods). They are pretty meh at this point.

Kage2020
07-09-2007, 15:21
Is there a literary equivalent of "jumping the shark?" One imagines so. It's always nice, if sometimes disappointing, when a series ends. You know, that whole idea that the plot is resolved.

I don't at all mind that GW are expanding on the Horus Heresy, or that they are reinterpreting sections of it. That's actually great. I just feel that it might have been more interesting had they retold the broad plot, and then gave us these other viewpoints.

Kage

thechosenone
07-09-2007, 16:21
Well kage ,imo i think it might be hard to tell the story in a broad way and really have us care as much, especially since there have already been complaints that the whole series is just battle scene after battle scene.

The rememberencers are some of the most interesting characters in the books and they help us see the story the way the rest of the imperium of man would see it, from normal human eyes.

And without spending three books watching Gavriel Loken try and keep his Legion from corruption really works in the end. You know the guy and at least i liked him, so that's why you really end up hating the traitors when they massacre their loyal brothers.

Same with Saul Taratvitz. Without seeing the little stuff you'd never be able to hate Lucius and Eidilon in the proper amount.

I think that's part of the reason i didn't care as much about the Flight of the Eisentien story. I didn't know any of those characters that long. None of them really had much screen time in the first three books and mostly they were all dry and dull.

Telling stories from the big picture perspective makes it really hard to care about the war. Its just numbers dying and ships blowing up and you want more cause you don't care about anyone. But seeing it from the perspective of the guys fighting it makes me atleast more personally involved.

Kage2020
07-09-2007, 19:00
Well kage ,imo i think it might be hard to tell the story in a broad way and really have us care as much...
Clearly the approach they've selected may not be working that well either, thechosenone. I personally was interested when we were being told a progressive story. The step back with Fulgrim just didn't work for me.

(On the other hand it has worked in the faster paced cinematic medium, e.g. such films as Memento.)


...especially since there have already been complaints that the whole series is just battle scene after battle scene.
There is a name for that -- "Black Library novel." ;)

Let's just face it, the majority of the BL novels can have the same thing said about them. ;)


Telling stories from the big picture perspective makes it really hard to care about the war.
I actually meant to say complete the story arc, rather than taking two steps forward and then two steps backward.

Kage

Ktotwf
07-09-2007, 22:31
Personally, I have found that as long as you don't go into a BL novel expecting to read "War and Peace", they're fine as they are. Unless they are written by Goto.

Who will probably be given the climactic book of the series to punish all the fans who whine on Warseer.

Kage2020
08-09-2007, 00:55
LOL. Another Goto basher? Fair enough.

Admittedly, Ktotwf is in my mind quite correct about that. If you have zero expectations for a novel then the chances are that it is going to be much better than you imagined. That's probably one of the reasons that I despise Xenology so much -- it just failed in almost every single regard that a background book could. In my mind, of course.

At the same time, if we didn't have any expectations, why would we bother to buy a book? At the very least you want it to be enjoyable... ;)

Kage

icegreentea
08-09-2007, 02:10
i wish they would elaborate on the march to terra. like, previous to the HH series, we basically knew how horus fell, how he brought a bunch of other primarchs with him, and the start of the heresy (istvaan couple times... stuff like that), how various legions got tangled up and w/e. and of course everyone knew how it ended. seige of terra, arrival of smurfs and company, epic duel. but not much stuff in between. for something that split nearly every facet of the imperium in two, there seems to be a wealth of stuff to cover that would both be 'new' and 'old', and i have a feeling they're just going to gloss over it.

there's all this stuff that could be covered, like the mechanicum fighting itself. imagine titan duels without any of those crazy 'POWER OF CHAOS' plot armor. i would love to see someone write about this stuff.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 02:49
At the same time, if we didn't have any expectations, why would we bother to buy a book? At the very least you want it to be enjoyable... ;)

Kage

Because it is enjoyable, in that it brings the galaxy to life, and they can often be thrilling "war porn" as people on here are so used to saying.

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2007, 09:38
Yes, I would like to see some non SM issues addressed in this series, which, I'll admit, I have not liked since the beginning, though I am still reading them, damn it all.

Savant
08-09-2007, 10:17
I think the books are ok. They're not going to be the best pieces of literature you ever read, but then... seriously? Were you expecting them to be?

That said, I think FotE was just plain lazy writing. Mortarion seemed to exist solely to say;

'Garro, I hope I can rely on you to defect with me! I need you!'

then once Garro left;

'Wow, I sure wish Garro was here.'

Uh... huh. I want to read about the Primarchs! I don't care about Garro Whathisface, legendary nobody. You have a choice between telling a story about Mortarion, a Primarch, and Garro, a nobody, and who did you choose Swallow? That's a bad, baaaaad author!

Even if you were going to follow Garro's tale, make it realistic! The entire point of the HH was that everything that could possible go wrong for the Space Marines did! And yet what happened to Garro?

1. Refused to turn traitor, and yet despite being surrounded by a traitor fleet and having traitors on his own ship and being shot at by both, simultaneously, he escapes. Riiiiight.

2. Warp shields fail. While in the warp. No matter, Garro can single-handedly fight off everything the warp can throw at him. After all, it was only one chaos god attacking him.

3. Get personally saved by a Primarch, and escorted to Terra by him.

4. Trying to think of how he can possibly make it any less subtle that he thinks Garro is in fact the greatest Space Marine ever, anywhere, Swallow narrows the choices down to Garro arguing with a Primarch and winning, or fighting a Plague Marine. In space. He chooses both.

5. And once reaching Terra, what happens? Oh hey Garro, we want you to stay in the barracks of these all-female knights for a few months. Sorry for the inconvenience, but after that we'll have your own personal legion on Titan ready. Oh, and the Emperor wants to come personally felate you for being so awesome.

Feh. Fulgrim was much better. That's how to write a proper HH book - give the loyalists absolutely nothing. The entire book consists of them getting dumped on from upon high. Even Lucius, whom everyone hates, gets his own 'lol pwned' moment with Solomon. GO CHAOS!

Hun
08-09-2007, 11:39
You can reliably skip almost all of the battle scenes and not lose anything of value in the books. Only the first one against the false emperor in the first book was of any interest. Although, I imagine the dropsite massacre will be one worth reading and I hope I'm not disappointed.

My biggest gripe is that Loken, Garro and Saul Tarvitz all have essentially the same personality as each other, bar some passing references to the overall character traits of their legion. Out of all of the main characters in the books Lucius is the only one worth watching because at least he was neither wholly good nor wholly bad. All of the other characters seemed pretty bland in comparison.

Hopefully, with the protagonist in the new book being a Dark Angel he won't be a shining paragon of virtue, whose only weakness is he cries when he loses a few men.

Londinium
08-09-2007, 13:44
I think Fulgrim was a step on from the first few books theme of the good guys stay loyal and get killed and ********* turn to chaos, afterall the entire first half of book makes it appear like Demeter will turn to Chaos, and Vairosean would be the type to denounce it, and their roles are switched entirely. And Kaesoron is built up as someone resisting Chaos initially and being disturbed by whats going on in the Laer temple, and he becomes utterly debauched in the end.

It's the kind of ambiguity they need to introduce more of in the HH novels, I do feel the accusation that the Primarches are fooled into following Chaos in every novel is rather generalised. Firstly we have to take account that only 4 of the traitor Primarches have been dealt with:

Horus: Knew what he was doing, he wasn't forced into anything, yes the images Erebus showed him were twisted to his purposes (such as the images of 40K and the statues of the Emperor and loyalist Primarches...which were a result of the actions he was to embark on, not what the Emperor had planned) but regardless he made his choice, even more startling due to the fact he ignored his own brother's advice over a simple Space Marine he'd only recently made the accquaintance of.
Fulgrim: Was fooled...was the only one.
Mortarion: Turned traitor willingly, there was no fooling him, he knew what he was doing and willingly threw his lot in with it, although he seems to have been rather oblivious of the Chaotic nature of the revolt until his encounter with Nurgle. His conversion to Chaos wasn't being fooled either, it was borne out of deceit by Nurgle and Typhus and desperation, he knew what he was subjecting his legion to but although it appalled him it was the only way out.
Angron: Wasn't fooled either, was a bloodthirsty whacko at the best of times restrained by his brothers to a degree, would have slipped into Khornate worship regardless of Horus turning him against the Emperor.

Some of the more complex Primarches' falls are still to come, such as Magnus who was driven into it by the Emperor and Horus' interference, Lorgar who's legion was corrupt from top to bottom and probably had very few loyalists to purge when they announced their rebellion and Night Haunter who along with Alpharius never turned to Chaos anyways, merely used it as a tool.

This being said, it would be nice for one of the future books to have the character you follow (Loken, Garro, Demeter type) to actually fall to Chaos, it'd be a nice twist on whats been portrayed as of yet, but to say every legion is falling the same way isn't right really, as we've only been privy to detailed accounts of three (Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and to a degree the Death Guard) and three that were fairly closely linked, unlike the more interesting legions of the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Thousand Sons.

Damien 1427
08-09-2007, 14:28
I think the "atheist" Legions (Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords) will be interesting to follow. They're not really followers of Chaos, more renegades who make use of it. It'll be interesting to see how they react to it, the Heresy, and how they'll go along with it.

Makes me wish for a what if series.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 17:24
Is there any news on what exactly the structure of the Horus Heresy series is going to be? Is EVERY legion, Chaos and Loyalist going to get a book, and when are we getting to Terra?

CELS
08-09-2007, 17:52
Horus: Knew what he was doing, he wasn't forced into anything, yes the images Erebus showed him were twisted to his purposes (such as the images of 40K and the statues of the Emperor and loyalist Primarches...which were a result of the actions he was to embark on, not what the Emperor had planned) but regardless he made his choice, even more startling due to the fact he ignored his own brother's advice over a simple Space Marine he'd only recently made the accquaintance of.
Well, let's be fair; It's not as if Horus was sitting at his desk, sipping some tea and eating a cookie while looking over the arguments in the memo from Erebus, and deciding whether or not he should go traitor...

Instead, Horus was wounded and on the verge of dying, brought to a mysterious Lodge for healing, and in a strange trance where he was hand-fed warped truths from Erebus and the Chaos gods, he finally became corrupted. And I do think it is important to note that he was corrupted. It's not like in James Bond, where agent 006 chooses to become a terrorist out of revenge. Horus was in contact with Chaos for so long, and the Chaos Gods tried so hard, that he was finally tainted. This is, Chaos, after all. It's not a Shakespearean play where the bad guys are just motivated by their own greedy ambition.


1. Refused to turn traitor, and yet despite being surrounded by a traitor fleet and having traitors on his own ship and being shot at by both, simultaneously, he escapes. Riiiiight.
Didn't they hang back in the 'rearguard' of the fleet, and falsely report that they had to stay back because they had suffered some engine problems or something like that? I'm pretty sure that was the case, and that they weren't "surrounded". They were in range of a grand cruiser though, but anyone who's played BFG can tell you how hard it can be to hit a speeding escort that is over 45 cm away and abeam :)

Dragonlover
08-09-2007, 21:33
Something that has to be remembered- we're only 5 books in, and three of those were a trilogy. If all of them were standalones and followed the same plot I'd agree that they were getting boring, but they aren't.

Also, has anyone else read the Descent of Angels extract? It starts before the Crusade gets to Caliban, and whilst there's going to be an amount of divided loyalties, I get the feeling Chaos won't actually get a look in.

Dragonlover

Karesk
08-09-2007, 22:41
I will agree that three of the main protagonists so far seem to essentially be the same character, but Fulgrim felt like progress to me and I'm enjoying the series quite a lot.

Kage2020
08-09-2007, 23:09
Because it is enjoyable, in that it brings the galaxy to life...
You know, I used to once argue that the BL novels were in some ways more interesting because they offered a dynamic approach to the 40k universe, rather than the static and sometimes staid outlook of the wargame books. Now? Well, I'm not entirely convinced that they are dynamic. Reading fifty or more of the beggars will probably do that to you, though.


...and they can often be thrilling "war porn" as people on here are so used to saying.
Especially, or perhaps only, if you haven't read well-written "war porn." :eyebrows:

Kage

Ktotwf
09-09-2007, 00:10
Especially, or perhaps only, if you haven't read well-written "war porn." :eyebrows:

Kage


I thought by its very nature "war porn" was schlubby and bad.

If you are referring to Clancy or something, than BOOO!

Jerkface
09-09-2007, 04:39
My choler is rising at all of you people who are disrespecting the Horus Heresy Books. :)

Firebreath
09-09-2007, 09:06
I'm still waiting for Galaxy in Flames to arrive, before I can go on with Eisenstein and Fulgrim. So I can not confirm nor deny the books are getting boring fast (try the Red, Green, Blue Mars trilogy by K.S. Robinson for that). ;)

A thing that struck me with the first two books was that it was kinda awkward getting into for the first few dozens of pages (never had that with Abnett or McNeill).

Anyway, read my sig (shameless plug).

CELS
09-09-2007, 09:45
My choler is rising at all of you people who are disrespecting the Horus Heresy Books. :)
LoL! :D Strangely familiar...

Aflo
09-09-2007, 10:04
I'd love to see them cover Magnus and the Thousand sons - a very interesting plotline there.

Hlokk
09-09-2007, 11:41
I don't know so much about getting boring, however, what does bother me is how they seem to skip over a lot of really important things like Russ's assault on Prospero and the trial of magnus the red. ALso, the constant to-ing and fro-ing along the series timeline pisses me off.

Take, for example, Fulgrim. First 300 pages happen before/during Horus Rising. Last 150 seem like a rush job to get everything in. The section in Istvaan V in particular was apallingly short. There are 11 primarchs there, why no sections detailing their actions specifically? IIRC Corax got 3 sentences, and Vulkan got about 5, whereas Alparius, Night Haunter, Perturbo and Lorgar were not detailed at all until after the battle, and then only in the broadest of terms.

Also, anyone else noticed how one dimensional a lot of the characters seem to be? A lot of the characters seem to be nothing more than devices who exist soley to further the plot. For example, Tarik, Loken, Vipus, Solomon, Garro and Torgaddon are the typical one dimensional good guys going "bah, look how far our legion has fallen, I want my mummy". People like Lucius, Erebus, Fabius, Aximand and so on seem to solely exist to go "weee, we're evil, look how evil we are!!!". THe most interesting characters so far seem to be the primarchs, but even in the later books, even Horus is being relegated to one dimensionality.

Also, the constant decriptions of someone "being hewn from the rock of *Insert planet*" is getting annoying

ArtificerArmour
09-09-2007, 12:04
I agree with most people actually. It is getting quite repetitive.

Also, there's a term I use. It's "A Ha Ha! Complete!". It's taken from a star wars parody. It basically is when someone suddenly turns evil. Just like that. It seemed to happen to Fulgrim when he killed Manus. Also happened to Horus.

I mean, they tried to flesh out fulgrim, but it didn't really work. Yes, he was going a bit crazy, and he repented abit when manus died, but surely at some point before he'd have thought "oh, I might end up killing my best mate!".

Also, has it been mentioned that manus and fulgrim were so close before the book? I don't remember anything about it, although it was a nice touch.

The battle explainations in fulgrim wern't so good. Especially in space.
Also, whilst we're on the topic of space battles, the Heart of Gold? Seriously, the-one-you-call-McNeill needs to get a better imagination for ship names :p

Ultima
09-09-2007, 18:27
I personally think the books have been very good so far. Flight of the Eisenstein was by far the worst though because it was too close to galaxy in flames. Eg. when he was fighting the warsinger i did sort of think...yeah ok...when is he going to get his leg blown off...? Also there was no description at all of mortarians descent to chaos which was by the far the worst thing.

Fulgrim however, what were you expecting? You know that fulgrim turned at around the galaxy in flames time. Therefore, obviously its going to overlap. Fulgrim was good. You speak of the last 150 pages being rushed. No, they werent, although i would love to have had more description of the other primarchs, they are not the story..its about fulgrim. Therefore the only real detail in istvaan5 is going to be his duel with ferrus mannus. The other primarchs have nothing to do with that, so why would you think they would be included in alot of detail?

As for typical evil guys, are you serious. Did you read the end of Fulgrim? When Horus swore he would try and find a way to free his brother from the daemon? Or his distaste when fulgrim through the head of ferrus too horus? That's one dimensional? Or Aximand, what he is clearly evil is he? The guy who wept as he killed torgaddon? he is by the far the least 1 dimensional of the lot.

Also whats this about being annoyed that Russ's assault on prospero hasnt been covered? I'l tell you why, because they have currently had nothing to do with the stories. All the books so far have been told from the point of view of the luner wolves, death guard and the emperors children. So please explain why you are surprised or annoyed that Russ and the assault of prospero hasnt come up?

Hlokk
09-09-2007, 19:14
You speak of the last 150 pages being rushed. No, they werent,
Yes they were mate. I'd call just 2 chapters on the turning point of the Heresy rushed. Its almost done like a 1980's training montage by just picking out specific bits (The assault on the orbital was just hammered in there randomly). Plus the back end is badly written compared to the front tne


The other primarchs have nothing to do with that, so why would you think they would be included in alot of detail?
Because the book is about the fall of 8 of the primarchs, it would have been nice to have had a clue as to the motivation causing them to turn on their brothers rather than "OMFG. Iron Warriors<Salamanders. Lorgar FTW!!!1!!". Although the book doesnt concentrate on them, just using them as a plot device without explanation is just lazy writing (See Elements of Style)


As for typical evil guys, are you serious.
Well, yeah, thats why I said it. If I hadn't been serious, I would have put ;) after the sentence.


Did you read the end of Fulgrim? When Horus swore he would try and find a way to free his brother from the daemon? Or his distaste when fulgrim through the head of ferrus too horus? That's one dimensional?
Yet all the examples I gave were of non Primarch characters. Horus's desire to free his brother was nothing more than a desire not to have to share power with the forces in the Warp, the same one dimensional contempt he showed when he spoke to the daemon in Galaxy in Flames after ripping that astopaths guts out. And as for his distate, it probably came from Fulgrim getting blood on his cream carpets...


Or Aximand, what he is clearly evil is he? The guy who wept as he killed torgaddon? he is by the far the least 1 dimensional of the lot.
To be fair, you have a point there.


Also whats this about being annoyed that Russ's assault on prospero hasnt been covered? I'l tell you why, because they have currently had nothing to do with the stories.
Despite being mentioned in all of the books so far, plus Magnus's communication to Horus at the end of book 5. Yet another of a growing list of assumptions the writers have that, somehow, the readers know the backstory of the heresy. It wouldnt kill the writers to be able to take a step back and do a bit of a macrocosmic view of the conflict.

Alpharius
09-09-2007, 19:36
As much as I am enjoying the series, and I love the chance to learn more about the rather obscure Legions (Hello "LEGION"!). it is starting to feel as if we're just marking time until "The Siege of Terra".

Still, it has been a fun ride to date, so I'm more than willing to be lenient, for now...

Hlokk
09-09-2007, 19:37
IM also thinking they should do a book just on the imperial army, so we can see the effects on things that arent just marines. Perhaps an imperial army unit attached to the iron warriors or something?

Aflo
09-09-2007, 20:18
and I love the chance to learn more about the rather obscure Legions (Hello "LEGION"!)

*Looks at User name and avatar* I have no idea why that may be :D

Alpharius
09-09-2007, 20:30
I know - shameless!

I must admit to being a bit worried (though not as much as I'd be if Abnett wasn't penning it!) that when we finally learn more about the Alpha Legion, well, that I won't much like it!

Of course, I can claim it is just so much propaganda and move on, I suppose...

Erebus26
10-09-2007, 02:37
IM also thinking they should do a book just on the imperial army, so we can see the effects on things that arent just marines. Perhaps an imperial army unit attached to the iron warriors or something?

I reckon they are covering the Imperial Army a bit in Legion. :)

neXus6
10-09-2007, 02:39
As long as they keep letting McNeil write more than Abnett it'll be fine. :p

7thOffensive
14-09-2007, 23:09
The last part of the book was totally rushed. And it was the best part.


I also though the change of the EC from loyalists to crazy Chaos marines was a bit too quick. They were already running out of sensations by the time of the battle?


I think Mcneil could have done a better job drawing out the battle in the way only he can, and maybe spaced the story out more.

You can tell his writing suffers due to such heavy scripting.



Because the book is about the fall of 8 of the primarchs, it would have been nice to have had a clue as to the motivation causing them to turn on their brothers rather than "OMFG. Iron Warriors<Salamanders. Lorgar FTW!!!1!!". Although the book doesnt concentrate on them, just using them as a plot device without explanation is just lazy writing (See Elements of Style)

haha so true.

Londinium
15-09-2007, 00:27
Because the book is about the fall of 8 of the primarchs, it would have been nice to have had a clue as to the motivation causing them to turn on their brothers rather than "OMFG. Iron Warriors<Salamanders. Lorgar FTW!!!1!!". Although the book doesnt concentrate on them, just using them as a plot device without explanation is just lazy writing (See Elements of Style)

No it's not, it's about the fall of Fulgrim and his legion, thus why the book is called 'Fulgrim' and not 'Isstvan V', the battle is but the final act of the whole sordid affair, what happened to Corax and Vulkan has no relevance to Fulgrim's tale, likewise why the other primarches turned traitor. The viewpoints of these legions will be covered in their respective books, there was no need to cover them in Fulgrim. About the only Primarch other than Fulgrim and Horus that needed coverage in Fulgrim was Manus, and he got enough.


Yet all the examples I gave were of non Primarch characters. Horus's desire to free his brother was nothing more than a desire not to have to share power with the forces in the Warp, the same one dimensional contempt he showed when he spoke to the daemon in Galaxy in Flames after ripping that astopaths guts out. And as for his distate, it probably came from Fulgrim getting blood on his cream carpets...

No it wasn't, after Manus, Horus was probably the closest Primarch to Fulgrim, they spent a good few decades in each other's company campaigning and socialising together before the EC left to embark on their own expedition, they were amongst the closest Primarchs and Horus was repulsed at what had happened to him, and begun to see what his rebellion was creating. It's not one dimensional, it's retaining some of the old compassion of Horus, rather than rendering him as a KILL MAIM BURN! type character as soon as he turns to Chaos.


Despite being mentioned in all of the books so far, plus Magnus's communication to Horus at the end of book 5. Yet another of a growing list of assumptions the writers have that, somehow, the readers know the backstory of the heresy. It wouldnt kill the writers to be able to take a step back and do a bit of a macrocosmic view of the conflict.

It's mentioned in Fulgrim, that the Emperor has dispatched Russ to apprehend Magnus (of which Fulgrim is not suprised about) and that Horus has intercepted the orders and put his own spin on them, nothing more is needed to be known to be relevant to the Sons of Horus/Death Guard/Emperor's Children arc, it will be fleshed out in subsequent books that go off on tangents, i.e a Fulgrim type book that contains information which is not necessary for the central Heresy story but fleshes out the content.

BrainFireBob
15-09-2007, 06:58
Problem is, the way they're progressing the books they're a) Really making the Heresy short, and b) They're not really fleshing things out too well.

Fulgrim is now possessed. So he goes bad. Woot. That's really weak. Horus turning was also weak- not his turning on the Emperor, but his "Gr, I am teh evilz now." Why? It just happened.

There was an effort with Fulgrim. Honestly, it promised well- with the great artist telling Fulgrim that perfection was sterile and pointless, with Fulgrim being peeved his campaigns suffered the vagaries of battle- but damn, they became arrogant pricks after three planets? (The fall of the Laer was the third world they campaigned on).

Yet all of a sudden the Luna Wolves were asking what happened to them, with half the Luna Wolves officers having been grunts when they served alongside the Sons of Fulgrim? Doesn't work.

Fulgrim's descent into arrogance should have lasted a century, at the minimum. Not a matter of months.

Lord_Squinty
15-09-2007, 07:51
I don't know so much about getting boring, however, what does bother me is how they seem to skip over a lot of really important things like Russ's assault on Prospero and the trial of magnus the red. ALso, the constant to-ing and fro-ing along the series timeline pisses me off.

Take, for example, Fulgrim. First 300 pages happen before/during Horus Rising. Last 150 seem like a rush job to get everything in. The section in Istvaan V in particular was apallingly short. There are 11 primarchs there, why no sections detailing their actions specifically? IIRC Corax got 3 sentences, and Vulkan got about 5, whereas Alparius, Night Haunter, Perturbo and Lorgar were not detailed at all until after the battle, and then only in the broadest of terms.


Russ's assault on prospero will morethan likely be covered in detail in the space wolves book. As for Istvaan v - as you say - there are 11 primarchs there - one of those chapter books will cover the battle / massacre in more detail. Thats how the books are working.

Daemonslave
15-09-2007, 08:07
Personally, I have enjoyed the Horus Heresy books so far. They do, unfortunately, seem to have the requirement for the occasional "gore-fest" which at times is unnecessary and tends to spoil the book. This is the Heresy - there will be plenty of fighting later on.

Horus Rising, for example was an excellent introduction to the series. It showed us the more upbeat mood of the warriors fighting in the Great Crusade in this time, introduced the remembrancers, people who have an unbiased view on events, the iterators, the political role of the Mournival and how Horus used people to argue for war when he appeared the peacemaker. What ruined this book was the "war porn". The start of the book, while an interesting way of starting the series (Horus killing the Emperor) the amount of writing given to that was unnecessary.

Then they came to Murder which was a section which would have been better if it had been omitted. Then later the concept of the Primarchs being each based on an astrological sign is an interesting concept, yet it is overdone by having the Interex base their culture on 'the dreaded Saggitary'.

That is what spoils a lot of Black Library books - there appears to be a mandatory gore-fest, and when they introduce a new concept they overdo it.

Regarding the 'repetition' of people falling to Chaos, bare in mind that the first three books were a trilogy, all based on the Luna Wolves and Horus, so there is obviously going to be the same story there, Flight of the Eisenstein looks at the escape of Garro not at how the Death Guard turn (although the 'baddie' characters are quite awful tbh), whereas Fulgrim looks at how he and his legion turn to Slaanesh.

So, so far we have books on how two Primarchs and their Legions turn away from the Emperor - not really that repetitive if you think about it.

As for the ending of Fulgrim being rushed, I think you are confusing rushed with shortened. I expect that, since each Legion seems to be getting their own novel, the dropsite massacre will be looked at in a lot more detail in the future (i.e. Salamanders or Night Lords books, for example).

I'm pretty sure that everything will be covered, but that for every major event the Black Library will produce something very detailed, not wanting to cram them in into a few books. This gives us more things to read and makes the BL more money.

Rockerfella
15-09-2007, 09:47
How can you complain about the battles, they are only boring if you have no imagination otherwise they are amazing and in your mind you can see what is happening.

I feel pity beyond belief if you lack Imagination on any level.

As for them repeating stuff, so what loads of books follow the same pattern.

Well, for me the battles are a little lame after awhile. Firstly, i know who's going to win before the 'colossal' event even happens. That will be the space marines then. :eyebrows::rolleyes: Secondly, i found it really strange that space marines were suddenly so easy to kill, if you're a space marine. Does that make sense?

I'm looking forward to the Lions involvement personally. :P

Cheers.

Erebus26
15-09-2007, 14:18
I'm biased here of course, but I'm surprised there hasn't been a book on the Word Bearers so far as characters like Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the first to turn to the Dark Gods and played a big part in corrupting Horus.

Although I agree about the repetitive battle scenes, I think the books about the different legions, their characters and traits has been good and I'm looking forward to books like Legion as we've not heard much about the Alpha Legion.

Londinium
15-09-2007, 18:40
Problem is, the way they're progressing the books they're a) Really making the Heresy short, and b) They're not really fleshing things out too well.

I wouldn't state they are making the Heresy short, they are ploughing a central line through the storyline with the express desire of going off on tangents here, there and everywhere (a la half of Fulgrim, Descent of Angels and Legion), by the time the book series has run it's course, you can guarantee the entire story will be anything but short. It must be noted that we've only breached the initial stages of the Heresy anyways, so of course it'll be short, theres only been one battle of the Heresy so far covered, the actual Heresy has only just begun. Theres still Calth, Prospero, Signus, the Imperials Fist getting caught in nowheresville, Alpha Legion vs White Scars, Night Lords vs Space Wolves, the Dark Angel civil war, Tallarn, Ad Mech Civil War plus anything else they invent for the novel series, before we even get to Terra.

And then hopefully books on the aftermath, the Iron Cage, the Inter Legion Wars, Guilliman vs Fulgrim, Eskrandor etc etc



There was an effort with Fulgrim. Honestly, it promised well- with the great artist telling Fulgrim that perfection was sterile and pointless, with Fulgrim being peeved his campaigns suffered the vagaries of battle- but damn, they became arrogant pricks after three planets? (The fall of the Laer was the third world they campaigned on).

They had been campaigning for a good number of decades with the Luna Wolves before they embarked on their own expedition, and they were not arrogant pricks after Laeran, it was merely the beginning of the final stage of their descent into chaos. Vairosean was not an arrogant prick after Laeran, likewise Demeter, Vespasian and Tarvitz and even Kaesoron who was disturbed by what had gone on, on the surface. It was the tipping point that begun their actual descent into Slaneeshi worship after decades of activites that would draw them towards such an eventuality.

Speaking of which, the Ultrasmurfs are so dedicated to perfection and following the Codex Astartes to the tee (post Heresy), and being the most perfect, pure marines of the Emperor, wouldn't they have been equally as at risk to falling to Slaneesh as the EC, it's just interesting how this subject is never breached with the loyalist legions, it's just like they are loyalist and always would have been no matter what, aside from the DA's none of them were even tempted...


Yet all of a sudden the Luna Wolves were asking what happened to them, with half the Luna Wolves officers having been grunts when they served alongside the Sons of Fulgrim? Doesn't work.

If your referring to Murder, it's more the actions of Eidolon and Lucius the Sons of Horus take offence to, Lucius would be a newcomer to them anyways having only just become a line officer and it was his personality more than his legion's ethos which annoyed Loken et al. And Eidolon likewise was his personality and arrogance, had Vespasian lead the EC on Murder, you wouldn't have seen the same friction.


Fulgrim's descent into arrogance should have lasted a century, at the minimum. Not a matter of months.

I'd say it lasted at least 50 years, the EC's spent at least 3/4 acting independently from the Luna Wolves before Isstvan, and they were attached to Horus' legion for a susbstanial period before, it's merely the tipping point occured shortly after they left the Luna Wolves.

CELS
15-09-2007, 19:35
Speaking of which, the Ultrasmurfs are so dedicated to perfection and following the Codex Astartes to the tee (post Heresy), and being the most perfect, pure marines of the Emperor, wouldn't they have been equally as at risk to falling to Slaneesh as the EC, it's just interesting how this subject is never breached with the loyalist legions, it's just like they are loyalist and always would have been no matter what, aside from the DA's none of them were even tempted...
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's interesting :D It's just a case of GW/BL trying to make sense of why half of the Legio Astartes turned to Chaos, without really making a whole lot of sense, in my opinion. The pursuit of perfection is common for most Legions, actually. They're just looking at it differently. The Emperor's Children strive for perfection, the Iron Hands strive for the extermination of weakness. What is the difference between these two philosophies? Absolutely nothing. If you are perfect, you have no weakness, and if you have no weakness, you are most likely perfect :)

Same goes with the Alpha Legion's pursuit of their goals (laying down perfect plans and stratagems, to the point where the Alpha Legion is highly succesful even without its Primarch) and pretty much every single Legion has its own version of this vision of perfection... except the World Eaters, who have always wanted to just smash things and make people bleed. :)

Virus
16-09-2007, 12:13
The thing about the legions that turned traitor was that they all either had reasons to resent the Emperor/other Primartchs (Magnus, Alpharius, Pertuabo, Angron) or were ultimately influeneced by Horus (Mortarion, Fulgrim, Night Haunter, Angron again). The traitors may have shared phiolosphies with the loyalists, but it was not only these philosohies that led to their joining Horus, eg. Horus believed Gulliman would never turn, so didn't try, however he did try with Fulgrim because he thought he could succeed. The exception to this is probably the Word Bearers, as they had turned before Horus.

Erebus26
16-09-2007, 14:34
Didn't he try to turn Russ and Khan as well? I read that somewhere he did, and got told to shove it!

jb85
16-09-2007, 15:08
Didn't he try to turn Russ and Khan as well? I read that somewhere he did, and got told to shove it!


I don't think Horus tried to directly turn Khan however I believe he was under the impression that Khan would support him when the **** hit the fan. Not sure on Russ though, don't recall any attempt to turn him (other than the manipulation when Russ was en-route to Prospero).

Iuris
16-09-2007, 15:54
I like most of the things about the series, except that the characters are not suitably fleshed out. Surprisingly, Garro is one of the few I felt was done in sufficient detail to be convincing.

But Horus simply getting wounded and voila the new evil incarnate was too dry fare. They should have fleshed it out, played the ambition better - Horus should fall of his own choice, because he was himself such a person, he shouldn't have been simply "turned" from the outside.

Otherwise, I like the later novels approach of focusing on a legion and then using it to illustrate the broader happenings.

Erebus26
16-09-2007, 19:49
I don't think Horus tried to directly turn Khan however I believe he was under the impression that Khan would support him when the **** hit the fan. Not sure on Russ though, don't recall any attempt to turn him (other than the manipulation when Russ was en-route to Prospero).

My mistake jb - I think Horus thought they would join him rather than actually asking them.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
16-09-2007, 21:20
One sentence: FULGRIM SMASH PUNY AVATAR!!!

Warp_touched
16-09-2007, 21:31
I quite like them, and for all the people out there dead set on chapters its amazing to read into them.
But Abnett's still has my heart as the best.

Lastie
17-09-2007, 09:29
One sentence: FULGRIM SMASH PUNY AVATAR!!!

And with that my faith in the BL disintegrates.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
17-09-2007, 11:26
*mission complete*