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Voltaire
07-09-2007, 04:23
Here's something I made while bored...


Prince
Vambraces of Defence,
Swordmaster, Pure of heart
Dragon Armour

Mage (Level 2)
Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll
Channeler

Mage (Level 2)
Dispel Scroll
Seer

Commander
BSB, Dragon Armour
Warbanner

14 Swordsmasters
Full Command

20 Spearmen
Full Command

20 Spearmen
Full Command

10 Archers

6 Shadow Warriors

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bows, Spears
Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bows, Spears
Musician

Tiranoc Chariot

Tiranoc Chariot

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

It goes by my normal ethos of trying to have something which can compete in each phase. I don't know if its any good by High Elf standards and would appreciate some help.

Avatar of the Eldar
07-09-2007, 06:25
Voltaire,

First off, monster props for the Watchman. Thank you for taking the time to create something genuinely worth reading.

On to your question. I've got ~2 yrs sunk into learning WFB the hard way - by starting with (and sticking with) HE. I get no end of crap from my game group (which includes some of the top players in the US) that it's not a beginner's army. Nonetheless, I believe I've learned a thing or two along the way.

See specific comments in your list then general comments below that.

Prince
Vambraces of Defence,
Swordmaster, Pure of heart
Dragon Armour

>Elf heroes on foot = highly vulnerable. Prince on foot = expensively vulnerable. I run two Commanders, both mounted, lances only, one with Helm of Fortune, the other with Dragonscale Shield. 1+ rerollable and 1+ respectively. Object, keep 'em alive, dish out extra attacks in the DP's and SH's they roll with.

Mage (Level 2)
Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll
Channeler

Mage (Level 2)
Dispel Scroll
Seer

>These two are sensible, however magic is the biggest HE advantage. It's a matter of taste (and I respect a player good enough to go med-lite here) but I never run a Prince, always an Lvl 4 Archmage + Lvl 2 with Seer + Channeler + Silver Wand making him effectively a lvl 3. Furthermore, I always take the Banner of Sorcery in my Dragon Princes and each mage has one of the rings. That said, magic is fickle and 3 out of 5 scenarios at the last Hillbilly squashed or hampered my magic and shooting.

Commander
BSB, Dragon Armour
Warbanner

> Oooh, doubly vulnerable. Conventional wisdom is that this is giving points away. I never take a BSB. When I did, he was mounted to give him a better save. With high LD, HE doesn't get as much value from them. There's other weaknesses that need shoring up IMHO. I'd give Warbanner to Silver Helms with a Commander or to the Spearblock as First Amongst Equals. If you must take the BSB, go all in and take the Battle Banner. Warbanner's too cheap to hang on him. Or, you could give him Banner of Sorcery and give the Swordmasters a banner that will help them survive.

14 Swordsmasters
Full Command

>Love the models but mine are warming the pine until the new book comes out. That 5+ save sucks and unless it's a big block (20) it can get shot and zapped pretty easily. Mine didn't perform well as a flanker for my spear block. If you do stick with them, give the Blademaster the Blessed Tome. If you place this between the two spearblocks you'll have LD 9 and 10 infantry. And if you insist on that foot BSB, there's a reroll. They won't be going anywhere quick. (Unless it's due to autobreak by fear causers)

20 Spearmen
Full Command

20 Spearmen
Full Command

> I really like the 2 spearblock configuration. I just haven't weaned myself from a Cav-heavy list. But I'm gonna soon.

10 Archers

>Standard. I'm not an archer hater. They do ok most of the time and last game they helped break and chase down Dragon Ogres by flank charging down from a hill in 5x2 formation. He never considered them and I almost overlooked the opportunity myself! Wheee! First time ever.

6 Shadow Warriors

>I've only dabbled with these but haven't had much success using them as screens/march blockers. Would rather have another chariot.

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bows, Spears
Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bows, Spears
Musician

>God bless your heart for considering these. Mine haven't touched a table. Heck, they aren't even painted. No punch or staying power. And, with bow and spear they're the cost of Silver Helms. I pesonally would make these SH's with Mu only. It's all about the survival. Although I could see these as flankers if you had units of Silver Helms and Dragon Princes for them to partner with.

Tiranoc Chariot

Tiranoc Chariot

>Love 'em. I even ran 3 of them for a while. I tend to use them as support for my spears or pair each with a unit of SH's.

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

>Absolutely a must.

>No Eagles???? They are much more cost effective march blockers than Reavers. Universally regarded as the best buy in the HE list (not counting cheap magic items)

General comments:

People have their own reasons for trying different lists. But here's what I know: HE are tough to play evidenced by the fact you don't see them at tournaments (I was one of 4 HE players at Hillbilly, the largest Indy tournament.)

The "rule of two's" seems to be sensible and balanced. 2 RBTs, 2 Eagles, 2 Chariots, 2 Spearblocks, 2 Silver Helms. After that there's a bit of discretion - 2 Archers (I'm not that confident to use points on two of these). Dragon Princes or Swordmasters? DP's have a bigger threat range and are more resilient. 3 Characters or 4? Frankly, I still consider myself a novice player so I'm taking all the help I can get. Therefore I go a little heavier on Characters, Magic and Cav without devolving to an all cav list. I do think I'm ready to trade in one of my three Silver Helms for a second block of 20 spears. If only to give my two mages choices of units to shelter in.

I personally think you're missing those Eagles and Silver Helms. I would consider dropping the Swordmasters since they're not carrying a magic banner or other magic item. Let the spears do the work.

Give your list a whirl for a few and then switch out the Reavers and Shadow Warriors.

Again, I'd mount those heroes - even if you put them in the infantry blocks.

More than you probably wanted.

Cheers!

Voltaire
07-09-2007, 09:51
Many thanks for the advice on the list. It all appears to be very reasonable and I can see the logic behind most of it. I will take into consideration everything you have said and try and come up with an improved list later on. I am beginning to get a decent idea of what the High Elf army list should look like now, though I am thinking waiting for the new book may be my best bet.

I'm also glad you liked the Watchman.

Zensunni
07-09-2007, 17:14
Avatar if the Eldar, would you be willing to talk more about your experiences at the tournaments and which units seem to serve you better then others. I mean you did do a really nice job on the list and hinted at many things that I also agree with as a HE player.

Just curious about some of your experiences,especially against what sounds like better competition then I usually face.

For me, the toughest opponents are usually horde Skaven, sometimes ORcs and Gobbos. Depending on how my opponent works his flanks. IF I can get a flank I usually do well.

Yeah HE was my first army and I lost a lot more then I won at first. Sadly I eventually needed to drop the reavers and mostly the swordmaster befoe I became really competitive. Tactics aside of course because I am still learning.

I love the swordmasters, fluff and all. They have served me well. I used to run a unit of 20 strong but eventually I shrank them in number and now I am waiting for the next book. Still a great unit but not as elite as I like. :cries:

Chariots are great!! Most players will be gunning for them so use them well and protect them when you can. I am also a big fan of the two blocks of 20 spears, full command, and at least 2 chariots. Just a nice center.

I also no longer run a prince, used to but the commanders serve me well enough. I also really like the potential of magic. I usually take enough to be a big pain for my opponent.

I feel like I am just re-iterating what was already stated,so I hope some of this is at least helpful.

Kerill
07-09-2007, 18:00
Will there ever be another watchman?

By the way I second the call for mounting all your characters. Also consider the radiant gem of hoeth+vambraces for the elf lord if you keep him for a more all round character (or give him one of the rings). DP and banner of sorcery is also a good idea but might be too magic heavy for a friendly gamin group.

Avatar of the Eldar
08-09-2007, 17:26
Avatar if the Eldar, would you be willing to talk more about your experiences at the tournaments and which units seem to serve you better then others. I mean you did do a really nice job on the list and hinted at many things that I also agree with as a HE player.

Just curious about some of your experiences,especially against what sounds like better competition then I usually face.

For me, the toughest opponents are usually horde Skaven, sometimes ORcs and Gobbos. Depending on how my opponent works his flanks. IF I can get a flank I usually do well.

Yeah HE was my first army and I lost a lot more then I won at first. Sadly I eventually needed to drop the reavers and mostly the swordmaster befoe I became really competitive. Tactics aside of course because I am still learning.

I love the swordmasters, fluff and all. They have served me well. I used to run a unit of 20 strong but eventually I shrank them in number and now I am waiting for the next book. Still a great unit but not as elite as I like. :cries:

Chariots are great!! Most players will be gunning for them so use them well and protect them when you can. I am also a big fan of the two blocks of 20 spears, full command, and at least 2 chariots. Just a nice center.

I also no longer run a prince, used to but the commanders serve me well enough. I also really like the potential of magic. I usually take enough to be a big pain for my opponent.

I feel like I am just re-iterating what was already stated,so I hope some of this is at least helpful.

It sounds like we share a similar learning curve. (Scaling down, then giving up on Swordmasters, ditching the Prince, etc.)

I'm still very much a novice compared with the other guys in my group. Not at the bottom anymore, somewhere in the middle. Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever get it figured out. I'm not much of a calculator when it comes to assessing match ups in terms of "hitting on 4's", "wounding on 5's", "saving on 5's", I tend to judge that intuitively.

I tend to play cautiously in the early turns, keeping my cav back, march blocking with eagles, using terrain to funnel the opponent and shooting and zapping the 1st) fast stuff, 2nd) scary stuff that I can't move away from. Therefore I try hard to find the right lores for my two mages that will jack my opponent. (eg - vs. Brets both take Lore of Metal) obivous, but I used to stick with High Magic on my Archmage and Heavens on my Lvl 2, with Second Sign for those re-rolls.

I'm just now learning when I need to be more aggressive with my cav in the early game.

I probably have a little too much cav (2x5 SH's, 1x6 SH w/FC, 1x5 DP's, 2 Chariots, 2 mounted heroes) but I'll be trading out one of the SH's for another block of spears when I get them painted.

Similarly, I'm probably a little too dependent on magic (Lvl 4, Lvl 2 augmented to Lvl3 as described above, rings of Corin and Fury and the Banner of Sorcery), which, as I said before, is not dependable. But it didn't seem to be excessive at Hillbilly - and actually didn't help in several scenarios. I actually used to run a Lvl 4 and 2 Lvl 2's!

I'm getting over my tendency to over-estimate my opponent and under estimate what my troops can do. I've scored wins against some of our better players. Much of this was luck, but there were moments that showed me new possibilities. (Like using 2x5 archers in H2H on a flank.)

The three things I'm working on now a) better deployment b) when to be aggressive and c) not overthinking it.

I wish I had more wisdom, but I feel like I'm still struggling and still make rookie mistakes. (eg Not moving my spearblock with mage forward on top of Turn 1 when all my spells are 24" range. I've done that TWICe lately. Too distracted with too many thoughts.

What's working for you?