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View Full Version : Confusion (pssb) reg: Frenzy w. Mount/Rider



Fulgrim's-Chosen
07-09-2007, 23:17
Hello guys.

Okay...so I was looking through my Hordes of Chaos book and noticed on page 47 of the book ("Marks of the Dark Gods" - section) ...that under the Khorne area, where it's talking about what the Mark of Khorne gives to Lords of Khorne, Heroes of Khorne, Regiments of Khorne, and Chariots of Khorne.... it mentions that although those units will all gain Frenzy from the Mark, that we should "Remember that a ridden creature does not (emphasis mine) get an additional Attack if its rider is Frenzied."


Now...the reason I am perplexed is that when I consult my big Fantasy Core Rule book (much reading needed as I am still just getting into the Fantasy side of things) ...on page 79 of the rulebook...you see a section titled "Mounts' Psychology". . . under "Immunity to Psychology or Panic, Hatred, Frenzy, Stubborn, Unbreakable", it says, "If either the rider or the steed is subject to any of these rules, the whole model combined model is. This means that all the parts of the model (a monstrous mount, or the crew and steeds pulling a chariot) are affected by these rules." (emphasis mine)


:confused:


Seems almost entirely contradictory ? The only thing I can thing is that this was FAQ'd or changed from one printing to the other (ie one of the books and rules is considered to over-ride the other and I just don't know about it cause I am knew to the game system, etc.).

Any info you can give would be great !


* * * - related to this question then ... does the extra attack for Frenzy get added in to any units' profile automatically, or is the player expected to add it in "manually" ?

IE - a Chariot of Khorne (ridiculously nice unit from the Daemonic Legion list) ...is an expensive but strong unit...

For 190 pts (assumes you paid for an extra Juggernaut beast to pull the chariot) ...

you get the normal D6+1 (scythed wheels) Impact Hits for a charge...

...AND . . . you have it crewed by 2-Bloodletter Daemons.

They each have "A-1" listed ie - one attack each on their profile statline for the Chariot.

The Juggernaut beasts pulling the chariot have listed "A-2" - ie, two attacks on their profile statline for the Chariot.

So, assuming you add a second Juggernaut, you get another 2 attacks from them on any charge / combat.

Thus far we see 2 attacks from the 2 Bloodletters and 4 attacks total from the two Juggernauts...right ?


Now as we check the "Special Rules" for the Chariot, we see Large Target , Unit Strength-5, etc. etc. - and at the end, the note that "Bloodletters are subject to Frenzy".

SO...reading that, we would have to presume that they get their extra attack added ON TOP OF the listed attacks on their profile, right ?


This would bump them up to 4 attacks from the Bloodletters, and 4 attacks total from the two Juggernauts (quite powerful as they are all done at WS-5, STR-5 !!!).


HOWEVER...here's the part-2 of my question, following from my above question about the discrepancy in the rulebook / Hordes book . . . if you took the section from the Core Rulebook - which one would think is pre-eminent as it's 7th edition, etc. - - - you would read it that if one part of the Chariot is Frenzied (ie the Bloodletters), that the WHOLE Chariot (including the Mounts pulling it) count as Frenzied also ?

If true, this would mean the 2 Juggernauts would shoot up to THREE attacks each ...ouch !!!

If true it would also mean that, on a charge, a Chariot of Khorne would deal:

1d6+1 Impact Hits @ STR-5

4 Attacks from the Bloodletters @ WS-5, STR-5

6 Attacks from the Juggernauts @ WS-5, STR-5

------------------ :eek: :D

This would be, to put it mildly, "very hurty" to any enemy it struck.


HOWEVER...is this the correct way to read it ? Any info / advice / explanation of this and the above question (as they are related) is appreciated ! Thanks guys.

theunwantedbeing
07-09-2007, 23:30
When you are frenzied all parts of the model gain +1 attack.

Unless of course you have the mark of khorne,which means only the riders are frenzied,not the mounts.

Although this doesnt extend to the daemonic legion things that didnt actually buy the mark or khorne,but come with it as standard.
So chariots of khorne have frenzied juggernaughts.
Although bloodcrushers get +1 attack only,as they have a combined profile so are only 1 model.

ZomboCom
07-09-2007, 23:36
theunwantedbeing is absolutely correct. Check the 7th ed FAQ for details.

crouchingotter
08-09-2007, 13:54
Yep the 7th Edition Warhammer Rule Book overrules what is printed about frenzy in your armybook. Your rider and mount get frenzy. 100% fact.

Atrahasis
08-09-2007, 15:24
Yep the 7th Edition Warhammer Rule Book overrules what is printed about frenzy in your armybook. Your rider and mount get frenzy. 100% fact.
You've got that backwards - the HOC book ruling stands.

Khornate models are the only frenzied troops who do not pass their frenzy to their mounts.

sephiroth87
08-09-2007, 15:37
Look under psychology in the warhammer FAQ online:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/warhammer7.pdf

Atrahasis is correct. For some reason beyond my comprehension, they decided to hold to the wording in the older Hordes of Chaos book, superseding their own newer 7th edition rules.

Atrahasis
08-09-2007, 15:42
It makes sense actually - both the 7th ed rulebook and the HOC book are current; that one was published after the other makes no difference. Chronology only matters for different editions of the same publication (so a newer HOC book overrides and older one).

Griefbringer
08-09-2007, 15:46
For some reason beyond my comprehension, they decided to hold to the wording in the older Hordes of Chaos book, superseding their own newer 7th edition rules.

At least it is good that they clarified it to some direction, since the wording on the HoC book combined with 7th edition rules lead to some confusion.

Festus
08-09-2007, 16:20
Khornate models are the only frenzied troops who do not pass their frenzy to their mounts.
Make that : Models with the Mark of Khorne...

Festus

Fulgrim's-Chosen
08-09-2007, 20:47
So ...interestingly enough...would you guys say the "Chariot of Khorne" (my original subject in this case) from the Daemonic Legion list ...is an example of something that has "the Mark of Khorne" - or is it assumed to merely be a part of being a Bloodletter (naturally) that you have Frenzy ?

It's pretty clear that the two Bloodletter crew get their frenzy and thus have 2-attacks each for 4-STR 5 , WS-5 attacks each round .... but the key question is ...what about the Juggernauts pulling the thing ?

They each start with 2-attacks (assuming you buy a second one, and why not for only 20-pts !) ... so you are guaranteed 4 attacks more from them, no matter how you rule on the Frenzy issue.

My question circles around..do they ALSO get the benefits of Frenzy and thus get THREE attacks each (2 on profile, plus 1 more for the Frenzy bonus) ...and thus have SIX attacks coming from the 2 mounts, plus the 4 attacks from the Bloodletters driving the Chariot ?


-----------------

Seemingly the "models with the Mark of Khorne" restriction was designed to punish / prevent Chaos Khornate Lords from taking Juggernauts and / or Dragons and going to town w. a ridiculous amount of hits from themselves, plus the STR-6 Dragon ? (that's the only thing I can think of that would warrant them restricting it at all, really) - it also makes little sense since it seems to suggest that ANY other Army out there that has a frenzied Rider of any sort, would transfer the Frenzy to the Mount too ...EXCEPT servants of the Great Blood God Khorne....those guys DON'T transfer their frenzy to any mount they are on . . . :eyebrows:

theunwantedbeing
08-09-2007, 21:00
The daemonic chariot of khorne simply has frenzy.
Not the mark of khorne frenzy.

So yes,the juggernaughts pulling it will have 3 attacks each.

The rule isnt made to punish anyone really,its just something thats still lingering from 6th edition as frenzy only affected the part of the model that was frenzied back then.
The fact that it stated in the rules that the mount doesnt get frenzy is just unlucky for khornate stuff.
Seems the designers decided to stick with how the rules in the chaos book were rather than change it,which would cause confusion in itself.

Plus it stops your knights of khorne getting 4 attacks each(doesnt stop frenzied slaaneshi knights getting 4 though :P)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
08-09-2007, 22:37
LoL - good point ! (on the Knights issue)

So is that how it's interpreted in Tourney's, at stores, etc. ? (IE the general consensus is that the Jugger's do get the extra attack ?)

- - - - -

If so...ouch...the Chariot of Khorne has to be one of the hardest hitting (if not THE hardest hitting) in the entire game !

Less than 200 p's gets you 10 ! STR-5 / WS-5 normal attacks from Riders and Crew ...and you still get the 1d6+1 Impact Hits from a charge, also @ S-5

Major pain.

And it's got a great Armor save like the one a standard Chaos Chariot gets, PLUS the Daemonic Legion True Ward Save to boot !

(oh, and they were kind and made it US-5 so it can break ranks on flank hits)

:evilgrin:

crouchingotter
08-09-2007, 23:12
Well what do you know.... they FAQ'd it specifically to disallow the rule for Chaos. Oh well. My Savage rc Boars get frenzied and that's all that matters really :D

Braad
09-09-2007, 01:03
Personally I think that if the horses of Khornate chaos knights would get additional attacks, the would even more unstoppable...

21 attacks instead of 16 at 11x (inc. champ) WS5, S5 and 10x WS3, S4...

T10
09-09-2007, 02:54
LoL

The "general consensus" is that a Frenzied unit work as described in the rule book, but that the description for the Mark of Khorne as described in the Hordes of Chaos specifies an exception that does not otherwise apply.

So: Applying the Mark of Khorne gives you a Frenzied rider with a non-frenzied mount, an exception to the the general rule that a Frenzied rider also means a Frenzied mount.

-T10

logan054
09-09-2007, 11:00
Personally i think it makes alot of sense, i really dont see horses bearing the mark of khorne.

Wings of Doom
09-09-2007, 17:09
Personally i think it makes alot of sense, i really dont see horses bearing the mark of khorne.

But it makes sense that Knights Templar with Warrior Priest(s) warhorses get hatred? The rule isn't so that fantasy 'makes sense' (it is fantasy, after all), it's so there is not confusion with frenzied (also stupidity and hatred suffering) models with mounts- whether the part of the model with the special rule suffers the effects or the whole model.

The Mark of Khorne is just outdated, and Armybook rules supercede BRB rules, even when outdated (as the FAQ shows).

Wings.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
20-09-2007, 20:57
Right ..well the main thing is that Chariots of Khorne (assuming they haven't been beating in Close Combat yet in a given battle) .. get the normal Impact hits on a charge, plus 4 S-5 hits from the Bloodletters AND 6 S-5 hits from the Juggernaut mounts !!! (Always, always, always upgrade to 2-Juggers pulling it ! - only 20 points for 3 additional WS-5, S-5 attacks ? Heck yeah !)