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RedStompa
07-09-2007, 23:14
What are some of the worst millitary blunders preformed by the imperial Gaurd?

I know mostly of instances where they manage to blow eachother up-not with artillery, with grenades and lasguns.

Chilltouch
07-09-2007, 23:24
Because even if they are professional soldiers who far outclass those of today, they are the weakest beings in 40K, thus have to be the bumbling idiots - which makes people think they are pathetic little wannabes armed with tin can armour and flashlights.

It depends on the author's point of view. You don't see Gaunt's Ghost shooting each ot her by accident, do you?

FarseerMatt
07-09-2007, 23:54
What are some of the worst millitary blunders preformed by the imperial Gaurd?

Heh, Governor von Strab's handling of the first phase of the Armaggedon invasion probably ranks up there...

icegreentea
08-09-2007, 01:37
millions of worlds, trillions of people. bound to be a crap load of dumbasses leading armies. but really, w/e suits the author and allows him to make <insert group> look really badass. kind of how orks always seem to lose to the imperium, yet are still the most successful/numerous race in the galaxy.

RedStompa
08-09-2007, 01:56
lol bumbling idiots for sure- in Soul Drinkers there was a regiment that fought british firing line style.

2_heads_talking
08-09-2007, 02:02
But, RedStompa, is the idea of fighting in British-style firing lines not a trait for the Imperial Guard army on the board? Close order drill, or something like that?

If its a trait they offer in the game, how can you then call them bumbling idiots for using it in a background sense?

EDIT:

But as I didn't answer the Q, its probably the bright spark who released the regiment of feral and extremely dangerous Ogryns against the Orks on Armageddon. Oh, yeah seemed a good idea at the time, but rounding 'em back up afterwards...

DantesInferno
08-09-2007, 02:15
I'm sure you'll find quite a few instances of incompetence in a 10 000 year old galactic military institution with billions of soldiers and officers over millions of worlds.

Thecommissar
08-09-2007, 02:28
hmm..... id have to say as a Guard player,the biggest feat of incompetence was the defense of vervunhive.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 03:24
To me, the idea that the Guard only has billions of soldiers to me seems kind of off...

We're talking about a galactic empire that could easily stretch into the quadrillions in terms of population, with the low ball figure being a quadrillion, higher estimates spiralling into the quintillions (which I think is probably unreasonable).

Lets take the United States as an example: The United States currently has 1,426,713 active military servicemen, out of a population of approx. 300,000,000.

That is a rate of 0.475571% military service per capita.

Applying that rate (which seems rather low in comparison to the Fascist Theocratic Militaristic Machine that is the Imperium), and applying it to the minimum population number of 1 quadrillion, we get an expected size of the Imperial Guard at 4.75 trillion servicemen.

The idea that the Imperium only has a .475% per capita rate of enlistment/conscription doesn't seem to be born out by the fluff, however, considering the little snippet about how increasing the Imperial Guard by 500% (in preparation for the invasion of the main Tyranid onslaught) would mean drafting every able bodied citizen in three out of five (?) Segmentums.

This implies that the size of the entire Imperium military establishment runs into the Hundreds of Trillions.

Now, I don't believe that the Imperial Guard's size runs into the hundreds of trillions...what I think instead seems reasonable is that the Imperial Guard accounts for say 5-10% of that "hundreds of trillions", and sort of low scale poorly trained PDF forces account for the vast, vast majority of it.

Conclusions? The Imperial Guard is very likely an organization that is anywhere in size from 1-10 trillion soldiers, and the various planetary PDFs are probably numbering in the hundreds of trillions all told.

Champsguy
08-09-2007, 04:10
It's .475 percent. You forgot to multiply by 100 for percentages.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 04:14
It's .475 percent. You forgot to multiply by 100 for percentages.

Ehh, math was never my strongpoint.

I guess that just makes my point even clearer.

icegreentea
08-09-2007, 04:18
Now, I don't believe that the Imperial Guard's size runs into the hundreds of trillions...what I think instead seems reasonable is that the Imperial Guard accounts for say 5-10% of that "hundreds of trillions", and sort of low scale poorly trained PDF forces account for the vast, vast majority of it.

Conclusions? The Imperial Guard is very likely an organization that is anywhere in size from 1-10 trillion soldiers, and the various planetary PDFs are probably numbering in the hundreds of trillions all told.

i agree with your general point. GW sucks at 'numbers' in general. but you forgot to take into account the imperial navy. i imagine the navy would take up some trillions in some places. i don't think this would change your figures much, but it's just something to keep in mind.

Sojourner
08-09-2007, 12:53
Indeed, I daresay there are quite a few Naval Security Regiments - tasked with airbase and spaceport security. At the very least a starport's standing defence force should be able to board and overrun a cruiser with a crew in the tens of thousands. That's a lot of troops.

Add to that the Adeptus Arbites, the Ministorum (Adepta Sororitas and Frateris), the Departmento Munitorum which doubtless has its own security forces, the security forces of the various ruling houses across the Imperium, the Navis security forces, the Schola Progenium's Stormtrooper and Commissariat training battallions, the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Guard numbering in the billions, the Knight worlds' associated irregular troops, and the personal armies of many senior Inquisitors.

You could make up whatever numbers you like from that kind of variety.

Born Again
08-09-2007, 13:13
What are some of the worst millitary blunders preformed by the imperial Gaurd?

lasguns :p

In all seriousness though, the 2nd War for Armageddon was pretty tragic, though that was really on account of Von Strab rather than the IG themselves. Wasn't there a mega-display at Games Day one year with a whole regiment of guard getting massacred by orks? I think it was called "Massacre at Big Toof River". Or, as 2_heads_Talking said, releasing feral ogryns onto Armageddon... not the brightest spark there...

spacemonkey
08-09-2007, 14:42
It depends on the author's point of view. You don't see Gaunt's Ghost shooting each other by accident, do you?
No, they're usually doing it on purpose. :p

In the books 15 Hours and Rebel Winter, there seems to be a fair amount of incompetence at the high command level.

Tanith Ghost
08-09-2007, 14:46
I see most incompetence happening at tragicly high levels. It's ironicly the competence of the non-coms and low officers that makes the guard so effective.

Dr. Potamus
08-09-2007, 14:53
I refer to him much too often, but, "Ciaphus Cain."

His incompetence always seems to pan out for him, but damn that man makes a mockery of the commisirate.

Axel
08-09-2007, 15:02
I see most incompetence happening at tragicly high levels. It's ironicly the competence of the non-coms and low officers that makes the guard so effective.

Thats a question of selection :D

On the level of non-coms and field officers incompetence will usually be exploited by the enemy, which will result in his permanent removal from the guard. At the adminstrative level and with the higher brass they get away and can blame those on the field for the loss. If nothing works, they get promoted out of the way.

RedStompa
08-09-2007, 18:18
I know its in the game, but why on the Empero's Holy Throne want to use such a stupid tactic? it wont work against orks, chaos marines,tau,eldar,dark eldar, and it may work against tyranids once, and then fail every other time.. i mean Why would you want to stand upright and still when facing something like chaos marines or orks??
is this some kind of cruel joke??

Sojourner
08-09-2007, 18:21
i mean Why would you want to stand upright and still when facing something like chaos marines or orks??

Weight of fire and weight of bodies. The guys at the front are screwed, but concentrating so much firepower (ha ha) in one place gives you a chance of downing the clanking, roaring behemoth before it reaches you - and if it does, at least you have the guys in the front to act as a meatshield long enough for you to plug it in the head at point blank range. It would have its uses - limited as they are.

DragonPup
08-09-2007, 21:03
I refer to him much too often, but, "Ciaphus Cain."

His incompetence always seems to pan out for him, but damn that man makes a mockery of the commisirate.

Cain is not incompetent. Cowardly and selfserving? Sure, but not incompetent. In fact, I'll say he is one of the greatest Commissars because his men(and women) have utter and complete respect and total loyalty for him.

RedStompa
08-09-2007, 23:19
Thats just what I was about to say... true he really doesn't care what happens to the poeple under him, but he knows when and when not to care about them.

Beast Rabban
08-09-2007, 23:30
Ahhh, we al love Flashma.....I mean Cain.
He is only incmpetent in that he always fails to avoid danger.

Kage2020
08-09-2007, 23:34
For me, the "military science" of the 40k universe is somewhat represented by what I would consider the somewhat poor novel, Storm of Iron. Yes, I know, everyone else seems to think that it's the best thing since sliced bread (or, erm, something good), but I couldn't see it.

Thus, for me, why are the Imperial Guard incompetent? Well, it makes it easier if GW can look at late nineteenth (and earlier) military science and then pull something out of a later period and represent this as "military genius." Storm of Iron just seemed to bring that across more than any other novel that GW have produced.

Kage

RedStompa
08-09-2007, 23:40
sliced bread (or, erm, something good)

WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'something good'?!?!? SLICED BREAD IS is AWESOME! WHAT DO YOU EAT? SLICED JELLO? SLICED MAYONASE? SLICED PAPER???

ahem..

Anways, can you give me instances in which the gaurd competenalty fought chaos marines?? Not including the ghosts, or cadia.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 23:47
Ahhh, we al love Flashma.....I mean Cain.
He is only incmpetent in that he always fails to avoid danger.

I see Cain as being much more Edmund Blackadder than anything else...how can you picture Jurgen as anyone other than Baldrick?

Mr Kibbles
08-09-2007, 23:55
Thats what i thought ktotf, partly cause i havent read flashman yet. Lieutenant Divas or even sulla (but more divas) remind me of george.

Ktotwf
08-09-2007, 23:57
Yeah, now that I think of it Sulla is kind of like George.

Ktotwf
09-09-2007, 00:08
WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'something good'?!?!? SLICED BREAD IS is AWESOME! WHAT DO YOU EAT? SLICED JELLO? SLICED MAYONASE? SLICED PAPER???

ahem..

Anways, can you give me instances in which the gaurd competenalty fought chaos marines?? Not including the ghosts, or cadia.

The Tallarn Desert raiders fought a giant war against Chaos Demons during the Horus Heresy and won, IIRC.

There is a similiar story behing the Mordian Iron Guard I believe.

DantesInferno
09-09-2007, 00:21
The Tallarn Desert raiders fought a giant war against Chaos Demons during the Horus Heresy and won, IIRC.

Several millennia after the Heresy. The Eldar first attacked them to prevent them activating a Chaos Warp gate, but the Tallarn held them off until the gate opened. Then the Eldar and humans teamed up to fight and defeat the Chaos Daemons pouring out.


There is a similiar story behing the Mordian Iron Guard I believe.

Yep, without the Eldar.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2007, 00:33
In Fifteen Hours all the Guard Officers where extremely incompetant to a ridiculous degree. For example a general refused to belive reports that the fight was not going well and witheld artiliry support.

Idiot.

It really depends on what you read. In Dan Abnett's novels the Guard are portrayed as competant snart leaders with great soldiers. In Fifteen Hours it is much diffrent.

Ktotwf
09-09-2007, 00:34
In Fifteen Hours all the Guard Officers where extremely incompetant to a ridiculous degree. For example a general refused to belive reports that the fight was not going well and witheld artiliry support.

Idiot.

It really depends on what you read. In Dan Abnett's novels the Guard are portrayed as competant snart leaders with great soldiers. In Fifteen Hours it is much diffrent.

Maybe because...SHOCK DRUM ROLL...the quality of the Guard DIFFERS across hundreds of thousands of light years of space and billions if not trillions of officers and soldiers.

Nah...can't be.

Colonel Stagler
09-09-2007, 01:17
Anways, can you give me instances in which the gaurd competenalty fought chaos marines?? Not including the ghosts, or cadia.


The siege of Vraks, 813.M41 - present :D

Born Again
09-09-2007, 01:23
I know its in the game, but why on the Empero's Holy Throne want to use such a stupid tactic? it wont work against orks, chaos marines,tau,eldar,dark eldar, and it may work against tyranids once, and then fail every other time.. i mean Why would you want to stand upright and still when facing something like chaos marines or orks??
is this some kind of cruel joke??

You dare question the tactics as laid down by the Imperial Military Schools of His High Lord, The Immortal Emperor? HERESY!

They're told to do it. I'm the guardsmen all think it's stupid, but don't you think plenty of US troops in Vietnam thought that was stupid? They're put there and told to do it by officers and generals who, supposedly, know better.

Axel
09-09-2007, 08:45
For me, the "military science" of the 40k universe is somewhat represented by what I would consider the somewhat poor novel, Storm of Iron. Yes, I know, everyone else seems to think that it's the best thing since sliced bread (or, erm, something good), but I couldn't see it....
Storm of Iron just seemed to bring that across more than any other novel that GW have produced.

The lack of quality as a novel and the "living" experience might come from the fact that JŁnger wrote this book to clear up his memories rather then to produce good fiction. Similar works based on the experience or real veterans often give us a pretty good insight into how it felt.

ctsteel
09-09-2007, 09:37
In 15 hours the upper levels of command also went so far as to continue their artillery barrage, on top of their own troops, even after a soldier frantically ran there and told them to stop - "nonsense! these are the co-ordinates we were given and we will continue firing until that is changed". :wtf:

similar instances happened in reality - I believe WW1 and WW2 had notable instances of beach assaults which went horribly wrong due to communication problems etc, resulting in half the troops being dropped somewhere other than the correct beach for the assault, or not at all.

But these are the notable exceptions, not the general state of the force's competence. I would tend to suspect the guard's reputation for bad fighting, comes from pieces of fiction that involve small skirmishes, where the platoon has been surprise attacked, or they don't have reinforcements, etc, and a squad of chaos marines has just barrelled into their ranks before they can mount an organised defence.

Give them a long haul campaign with resources to keep them going and they seem to be more than effective.

Drogmir
09-09-2007, 09:47
hmmm Biggest plunders include 15 hours and the Elysian Drop Troop Massacre on Medusa V

Quentin
09-09-2007, 12:44
I personally loved how the officers were portrayed in Fifteen Hours. Put me in mind of the tales of the half-wit commanders of Tsarist Russia. Ridiculously incompetent generals, cowardly commissars, arrogant artillery captains and an insane Grand Marshal.

Of course this level of incompetence was as a result of all the remarkable fficers and the braver commissars having died over the course of the 10 year Broucheroc Seige through brave heroics and political back-stabbing.

I thought the conversation between Sergeant Chelkar and Captain Alvard was particularly well done. The captain is shelling thier position because his un-updated situation map says thier sector fell to the Orks a few days ago. Despite a corporal voxing him to tell him he's shelling Imperial forces, he's too proud to admit he's made a mistake. Chelkar then voxes to him that the sector is very much still in Imperial hands, and threatens to put a shotgun slug into his skull!

The bombardment stops. :D

2_heads_talking
09-09-2007, 12:55
I personally loved how the officers were portrayed in Fifteen Hours. Put me in mind of the tales of the half-wit commanders of Tsarist Russia. Ridiculously incompetent generals, cowardly commissars, arrogant artillery captains and an insane Grand Marshal.

Of course this level of incompetence was as a result of all the remarkable fficers and the braver commissars having died over the course of the 10 year Broucheroc Seige through brave heroics and political back-stabbing.

I thought the conversation between Sergeant Chelkar and Captain Alvard was particularly well done. The captain is shelling thier position because his un-updated situation map says thier sector fell to the Orks a few days ago. Despite a corporal voxing him to tell him he's shelling Imperial forces, he's too proud to admit he's made a mistake. Chelkar then voxes to him that the sector is very much still in Imperial hands, and threatens to put a shotgun slug into his skull!

The bombardment stops. :D

And I assume Chelkar is later executed for threatening harm upon a senior officer? I'd imagine that the Imperial Guard command structure wqould react far worse to that than the news that a Captain was following orders, outdated though they were.

Quentin
09-09-2007, 13:27
And I assume Chelkar is later executed for threatening harm upon a senior officer? I'd imagine that the Imperial Guard command structure wqould react far worse to that than the news that a Captain was following orders, outdated though they were.

Funny story.
On being threatened with execution, Chelkar manages to bluff that he has the entire 902nd Vardan regiment willing to carry out his threat, who are all but immune from the severely diminished Commissariat in Broucheroc. Little does that captain know that the 902nd Vardan now only consists of a single company of 250 or so men. :D

Forget Cain or Gaunt, Sergeant Chelkar kicks ass!

If you haven't read it yet, look out for Fifteen Hours. Awesome novel.

colmarekblack
09-09-2007, 13:34
Gonna have to read it again now, just to see that bit :D

bertcom1
09-09-2007, 14:22
How are Guard officers recruited and trained these days?

Time was (Old Epic/Space Marine - 2001), when Imperial Guard officers were all taught to the same standard.

Using a book called the "Codex Astartes", it seems.

"Following the Horus Heresy, the victorious commanders of the Emperor...produced the great tome of ancient military wisdom known as the Codex Astartes"

"Many of the most brilliant minds of the age contributed...It describes not only methods of fighting wars, but also deals with diverse elements as organising troops, supply lines, clothing and feeding troops, subterfuge, espionage, tactics and ploys to confound the opposing commander"

"With such brilliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs...offering sagely advice, as well as the practical wisdom of the great Imperial Guard commander General Tybour, the Codex Astartes has always been regarded as an essential part of every young officers education. Every Imperial officer is familiar with its contents."

"The book remains fresh and valid ten thousand years after it was written...because it is presented as a series of discussions and ideas by the most advanced military thinkers of its day, not as a strict code of practice soon to become out of date. Much of its content is contradictory or inconclusive, representing different aspects of military practice...making it an eternal source of inspiration to military commanders"

"The Imperial Guard...leaders vary in ability...the teachings of the Codex provide a minimum standard...enabling the least able to command in an effective if uninspired way."

That meant that IG officers of that time were all competent, even if some were no more than that.

The IG codex mentions the "Tactica Imperium", described as a collection of documents approved by the Departmento Munitorum and the Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard. It is mentioned that they are subject to many interpretations, and that their value lies in provoking thought and understanding of principles which can then be applied as needed. It also serves as a reference for new officers.

Again, this means that IG officers are competent, as they are trained and educated to a common standard.

Some planets have their regiments officers drawn from the planets nobility, which might suggest variability of ability, but the IG codex says they receive further training by the Departmento Munitorum, so again, they will be of a competent, common standard. And if they weren't competent, the Departmento Munitorum wouldn't accept them as fulfilling the tithe obligations.


So, why is incompetence so common in the background?

I suspect that it is more to do with poor writing and lazy characterisation by the writers.

To portray the difference between a good officer (the hero of the story) and a bad one (rival to the hero), the easy option is to make the bad one incompetent and the good one competent. This is so much easier than to try to write a good character who is capable of inspiring speeches, or a bad character who has some aspects that make them unlikeable. This also makes the background not interesting or stimulating. E.g. a "bad" officer who is a drunkard, adulterer and cheat at cards, yet who is a competent leader is a more interesting character than a "bad" officer who is merely incompetent at their role. Similarly, for "good" officers, it is uninteresting when they are simply more competent than the bad ones, instead of being inspiring, charismatic individuals.

So, I would say incompetence in the IG is more a function of bad writing (same reason as behind a lot of poor background material), rather than a genuine lack of ability of the IG.

Colonel Stagler
09-09-2007, 20:30
Rebel Winter, another example of a guard victory against the traitorous forces of the dark gods :)

FarseerMatt
09-09-2007, 23:37
@ Bertcom1 - True, but it can still be a lot of fun (see Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series) - officers there by noble birth rather than skill...

Although "competent but evil" officers are just as good - the "killing officers" who get their me killed by accident vs the ruthless "murdering officers" who get their men killed on purpose as a means to an end. And the idea that they are not nice people but are kept on because of their abilities is also cool :D

mistformsquirrel
10-09-2007, 01:17
I'll just sum it up quick:

(And keep in mind, I'm a huge Marine fan here)

But the Guard are mostly portrayed the way they are because if they weren't, then it would be harder to make the Marines super-impressive.

That said, there are some fairly good stories (imho) in Let the Galaxy Burn involving the Guard. Admittedly they often end in the Guard dying, though not always, but still, they fight like hell.

I think my favorite is "Small Cogs".
(Spoilers!)

Basically a Platoon comes under attack while preparing for a parade or other formal occasion (it's been awhile), so they have little ammunition, and are wearing their dress uniforms (bright white!) as opposed to their flak gear.

Worse still, their opponents aren't rebels or Orks... but Eldar. The Guard eventually manage to hold the Eldar at bay, even downing a Falcon; but they only do it through guts and discipline.

The Captain even ends up having to lead a small squad to hunt down several Rangers; which proves to be pretty harrowing as they pretty much go down to a 1:1 kill ratio, with every ranger killed, another guardsman died.

Ironically, the last one is taken out by a novice priest with a candlestick just as he hits the valve on a water processor.

So yah, the Guard are far from incompetent, but they often sadly get portrayed that way because they are the baseline for what makes everything else "OMG AWESOME" in the 40k universe.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 02:10
Yeah, being a member of the SAS doesn't count for much when your opponent's a Chaos Marine or a Tyranid Warrior :(

But gawd, what a sense of achievement if you do manage to nail them :D

neXus6
10-09-2007, 02:54
Well 15 hours isn't REALLY guard incompetence its beurocratic incompetence for the most part, thought yeah there are some amusing mistakes made by characters.

Cain isn't incompetent he knows exactly what he's doing. :D

With a lot of the background being written from an imperial stand point there really isn't that much incompetence in the background, and even if there was it would all be known to the =I= only and covered up.

If I remember correctly though Guard take a fair kicking in the Taros campaign, wide open desert, tanks and railguns do not make for happy Treadheads. :p

Iracundus
10-09-2007, 04:05
Incompetence is oftentimes in stories in direct relation to the need to have the main characters or main race be good. This is often because it's a lot easier to write gross incompetence, and thereby have the main guys look great with simple competence, than it is to write truly exceptional ingenuity for the main characters when everyone else is already competent.

empireguard
10-09-2007, 04:53
Really when you think about it Guard are very brave. They run around with low powered weapons, little equipment and almost no armour but are still L7. SM's have super armour, the best equipment and high-powered weapons but are just L8. You give a Guardsman the same stuff as a SM and trust me he will be as brave as you want.

Guardsmen have more guts (true, after a short while those guts end up outside there bodies in large pools of blood:D) than anyone else and thatís why I love them.

dr.oetk3r
10-09-2007, 04:56
I remember reading about some crusade into the "wheel of fire" that went horribly wrong and millions of soldiers (the entire f'n crusade force) nearly got killed. If it wasn't for the intervention of the relictors the whole deal would have been toast.

So i think screwing up a giant crusade that happens once every 3000 years is pretty bad...

MadDogMike
10-09-2007, 19:27
I don't find the IG to be terribly incompetent in general. They suffer from the same problem as the rest of the Imperium in that the ruthless and cruel often rise in rank by playing that sort of thing up as "determination and faith in the Emperor" and of course the actual fanatics do the same thing only sincerely. Add in the inevitable bureacratic snafus and the results can be horrible. But overall they strike me as doing about as well as you can expect anyone in their shoes to do, possibly better considering the Imperium's response to failure (even if you did nothing wrong) can often do Joseph Stalin proud so they don't get to learn from mistakes.

Elcampbello
10-09-2007, 21:29
The vast majority of the Imperial Guard are a tough professional and above all competent fighting force. They are the ones who win battles, wars and planets, the Space Marines just make their job that we bit easier by softening the opponent up.

Ktotwf
10-09-2007, 23:15
The vast majority of the Imperial Guard are a tough professional and above all competent fighting force. They are the ones who win battles, wars and planets, the Space Marines just make their job that we bit easier by softening the opponent up.

I like you. :)

Lord Cook
11-09-2007, 00:52
Military incompetence? How about ordering your troops to walk slowly and calmly, in long lines Napoleonic-style, straight onto the enemy positions? Because obviously not a single machine gun could possibly have survived the initial bombardment - right?

Oh wait, that's not 40k, it's the Somme, 1916.

It's tragic how real life stupidity often far exceeds that of even the worst imperial guard officers.

FarseerMatt
11-09-2007, 08:51
Military incompetence? How about ordering your troops to walk slowly and calmly, in long lines Napoleonic-style, straight onto the enemy positions?

Those sound like Mordian tactics to me ;)

RedStompa
11-09-2007, 16:10
Guardsmen have more guts (true, after a short while those guts end up outside there bodies in large pools of blood) than anyone else and thatís why I love them.

I doubt a gaurdsmen woulds stand and fight against an encroaching ork slugga boy mob. Or Board a Tyranid hivemind ship and seek out the Brood queen and execute it- They would run or say no because they would know they would fail and they would die.. although there were a few brave gaurdsmen in that book Sons Of Ultramar I think, one shot up a bunch of tyranids and stuff before getting ripped apart...

Space marines are obviously not as numerous as gaurdsmen- hence why they normally dont get use for large scale invasions.

what happens to higher ranks of the Gaurd when they are incompetant? are they executed? ignored? forgiven? put under =I= Scrutiny?

spacemonkey
11-09-2007, 16:22
what happens to higher ranks of the Gaurd when they are incompetant? are they executed? ignored? forgiven? put under =I= Scrutiny?
Execution would depend on the size of the blunder and could be very immediate if there is a Commisar around :evilgrin: Ignored, quite often (well at least by the higher ups, I'm sure the rank and file grumble quite a bit :p). Forgiven, sometimes. =I= Scrutiny would rely on the presence of an Inquisitor at the pratical war front. I'm sure there are demotions (and even promotions) for incompetant officers, that way they can be placed somewhere where either they can be watched over or where they can do less damage.

Colonel Stagler
11-09-2007, 19:28
what happens to higher ranks of the Gaurd when they are incompetant? are they executed? ignored? forgiven? put under =I= Scrutiny?

No my friend, thats what they invented the Penal Legions for :p

RedStompa
12-09-2007, 00:03
No my friend, thats what they invented the Penal Legions for

so the penal legions are made up entirely of incompetant gaurd officers and criminals? thats an odd way to make a suciside regiment. comflicting order, and genral stupidity all around?

MooCow
12-09-2007, 00:20
Well, my thought is of the Inquisition or IG higher-up's thought it was imcompetence. and example being (Spolier for those who ahven't read Sould Drinkers) When the Head General finds that not only is he facing Choas Militia (basically) but has to start fight Soul Drinkers, Tellos and his crazed up Khorne Beserkers, Dark Eldar and a Horde (20,000+) of Crazed deformed humansd that just about burst from every hole in the city.

He gets annhilated just beacuse he really didn't have a sound situation to begin with. So, thew Inquisiton decides that that is incompetence beacuse he's never faced those types of enemy's before.

So, Penal Legion assignment could be more due to a general lack of understanding