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Drasriath
08-09-2007, 09:29
I recently carried on an email conversation with a certain BL author over the span of the last week. I'm not going to say who, because he asked me to keep things about the conversation rather hushed... HOWEVER, I will give you the hint that most of us Eldar fans would boo and hiss him with utter fervor.

In his closing statements of his final mail, he stated the following:

"With this in mind, and taking into account your criticisms, I would like
to assure you that I will do my best to ensure that my portrayal of the
eldar in future books will attempt to place them in an even more positive
light."

And

"You may rest assured, then, that I take your position seriously and that I
will do my best to accommodate your views and to try to encourage BL
itself to accommodate them in its conventions for its authors too."

Also, in an earlier email he explained very clearly that Taldeer is not actually dead, and that she was rescued by harlequins at some point. Weither or not it's true, it's nice to see that our (Eldar fans) ranting and raving hasn't all been for naught. With luck we'll be seeing a change for the better soon.

(If anyone knows the anonymous author in question, or has means of contacting him, please refrain from doing so. I was asked to keep our conversation private, and while I have for the most part done so, I felt it would be unfair to other Eldar fans if I didn't share the good news that matters reached a positive resolution for us.)

FarseerMatt
08-09-2007, 10:06
Of course Taldeer's not dead - she won the Dark Crusade campaign :P

(I'm guessing that's the "official" outcome of the game seeing as Eldar are the default race when you start the Kronos campaign, and their ending has the neatest finish)

stormblade
08-09-2007, 10:20
(I'm guessing that's the "official" outcome of the game seeing as Eldar are the default race when you start the Kronos campaign, and their ending has the neatest finish)

- Actually, I think that the official ending is that of the Blood Ravens, since DoW books were all written about them.

And I never liked Taldeer, though admittedly I'm not an Eldar fan and I've never read the books.

FarseerMatt
08-09-2007, 10:42
I haven't read them either :P

But although all the DoW books are based around the Blood Ravens, only the first one was based around any of the games.

SV_Harlequin
08-09-2007, 10:44
If this is Goto were are talking about, there is nothing short of quiting the BL that would improve the work.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 12:58
"even more positive light"

Considering the depths, it's true in a way. When it's that bad, there's little direction to go but up...but then again given the past, perhaps they'll get a shovel and dig deeper. He and BL need to understand the complaints were not just to buff the Eldar up but to at least make them act in a reasonable manner consistent with the existing canonical background, instead of making gross violations against it, and to not be a total bunch of incompetents just for the other main human characters to make fools of.

Bregalad
08-09-2007, 16:36
We will see.
I don't like the phrase "even more positive light", considering his other work.
And I wouldn't like to see another 180 pages of torturing Taldeer.

Drasriath
08-09-2007, 20:51
From what I understood later in the novel or in another some quote from a harlequin at some point hinting at the fact that Taldeer had been rescued. He added that she may well appear in the next DoW game.

I do agree, though. He seemed to think that his treatment of them was already fair which was to say the least frustrating. I think what he meant by even more positive light is that he saw Eldar Prophecy as a more positive setting for them, because they were allowed to achieve victory. Weither or not you agree with this (and I don't), we'll have to see what a 'more positive light' means.

One thing he did mention on several occasions is that he is pretty much prohibited by his editors at the BL from writing about the Eldar defeating the imperium. He explained what he meant to do with Eldar Prophecy was pave the way for other books with Eldar as the protagonists. He seemed sincere about that part at least.

He seemed reasonable enough, however to see my points and to understand that I wasn't alone in my frustration. While I will never purchase one of his older books or any compilation containing his work on principal... I would like to see what he next writes to see if there is a noticable improvement. It's really only then that we can see if he is, or isn't BSing us, right?

He does have alot of strange notions about the way he shows things, though. He seems to believe that his treatment of the Eldar before was fair and seemed genuinely surprised that people would be so upset by it, the same going for his portrayal of women, and his showcasing of their constant faliure and death. It was a very odd conversation, all told... I don't want to say he seemed utterly oblivious to what he had written, or the connations of it, but really he did... Just the same, he seemed willing to accept my, and the opinions of other Eldar fans that I collected for him, especially that of two women from my 40K Roleplaying MUX, who were initially pushed away from the setting because of Goto's work.

Either way, hopeless or not, there's no way to make a difference by doing nothing.

Iracundus
08-09-2007, 21:31
Bill King's Farseer had the Eldar sort of manipulating and using the Imperium to defeat Chaos.

The problem with restrictive BL policies is it sort of then constrains the Eldar to being one of two things: either the tricksy alien race that gets foiled by the macho might of the Space Marines or other human protagonists who make a mockery of their advanced technology and mysticism...or alternatively they end up being the helpful aliens that provide the mysterious gadget or information that allows the human protagonists to save the world from Chaos or other alien threat.

Kage2020
08-09-2007, 23:03
I'm not going to say who, because he asked me to keep things about the conversation rather hushed...
Erm, you do know that is much akin to saying, "I"m not going to tell you his name, but he's the President of the United States!"


...I felt it would be unfair to other Eldar fans if I didn't share the good news that matters reached a positive resolution for us.)
If you want to make a difference, start emailing the people that actually make the policy and creative decisions.


If this is Goto were are talking about, there is nothing short of quiting the BL that would improve the work.
Oooh... Let's play the "Which BL authors should be fired!" game. ;)

Erm, maybe not. :D


He seemed to think that his treatment of them was already fair which was to say the least frustrating.
To be fair, if anything he seems to be only reinforcing the standard themes that GW have had going for some time. The majority of the complaints that I've seen have bordered of "fanboi extremism," which I didn't know existed until recently. (And I also considered myself an Eldarphile/eldar-elven fanboi prior to this.)


One thing he did mention on several occasions is that he is pretty much prohibited by his editors at the BL from writing about the Eldar defeating the imperium.
A "dying race" should not be able to defeat the bloated, corrupt body that the Imperium is. Where is the heroism of the Space Marines in that!? :rolleyes:


Bill King's Farseer had the Eldar sort of manipulating and using the Imperium to defeat Chaos.
Which isn't quite the same as defeating the Imperium. After all, the Imperium won out in the end... kinda.


The problem with restrictive BL policies is it sort of then constrains the Eldar to being one of two things: either the tricksy alien race that gets foiled by the macho might of the Space Marines or other human protagonists who make a mockery of their advanced technology and mysticism...or alternatively they end up being the helpful aliens that provide the mysterious gadget or information that allows the human protagonists to save the world from Chaos or other alien threat.
Quoted in its entirety because, well, I believe it to be broadly the truth! :D

Kage

Adra
08-09-2007, 23:39
All i can say is....never have a private conversation with the OP :)

CELS
09-09-2007, 00:42
Well, when he asked the OP to keep things hushed, he didn't specifically ask him not to post parts of their conversation on a public forum on the internet, did he? :p

And hearing this stuff is like hearing Britney Spears say that her newest album is much more mature and a reflection of her many meaningful experiences in life. Black Library authors, God bless them, don't usually change their style of writing significantly, as far as I'm aware. When he started, Dan Abnett wrote awesome novels with lots of fluff-contradictions. Now, many years and novels later... he still writes awesome novels with lots of fluff-contradictions. :)

elvinltl
09-09-2007, 04:34
Can you ask him why ALL Farseers are Females? IMO i think actually Majority of Farseers are males but because of some fatal attraction between SM commanders they decide to make Farseers Females?
Similiarly, all the Exarchs besides the Banshees are Males. It will be awesome to see some Female Exarch. :D

And i have no idea why Eldar are always written so poorly... Eldar usually Manipulates other races without sustaining much casualty. I can't believe Taldeer guided the SM vessle through the Warp at her expense of her health. =.= She should seduced the Librarian to do so !!! :)

Bregalad
09-09-2007, 09:26
Well, that person presented a lot of male farseers (e.g. Eldrad and mostly male Ulthwé farseers; a drooling old farseer that ... erm ... takes care of a child) and female Exarchs (Dire Avengers and Spiders Exarch in Prophecy, almost Exarch of Shining Spears in Warrior Brood).

Point is that the SM focus of 40k leaves not much room for prominent female characters, so Eldar are one of the very few options.

But in Prophesy the Slaanesh cult won, I wouldn't call that a happy successful ending for Eldar.

FarseerMatt
09-09-2007, 09:47
Can you ask him why ALL Farseers are Females? IMO i think actually Majority of Farseers are males but because of some fatal attraction between SM commanders they decide to make Farseers Females?
Similiarly, all the Exarchs besides the Banshees are Males. It will be awesome to see some Female Exarch. :D

If it's any consolation to you my army includes

Twin Dire Avenger Exarches, one of whom is female
Two female Guardian leaders (okay in game terms they're just normal Guardians but I've designated them leaders :) )
A female Autarch (converted Banshee if you're interested)
Two Farseers, again one of whom is female (converted Bretonnian damsel)

That's all I could get away with using the gender-limited range of Eldar models, but my (badly-written) background stories also include female Rangers, female Craftmasters and at least one female Warp Spider if that's any use :D


And i have no idea why Eldar are always written so poorly... Eldar usually Manipulates other races without sustaining much casualty. I can't believe Taldeer guided the SM vessle through the Warp at her expense of her health. =.= She should seduced the Librarian to do so !!! :)

Maybe she didn't trust a weak mon-keigh psyker to do it right :P But yeah, more string-pulling would be nice...

elvinltl
09-09-2007, 10:05
Just curious, you did conversion for your models to make them females? So you gave them Boob Jobs using Green Stuff? Haha... It's so sex change operation.

Eldar should not be pulling strings!!! They should be pulling Cables!!! It's their forte... In fact they should be making SM realise how stupid they are by helping them fight their battles. And there was this part Eldar spaceships fought SM then Necrons... WTF? They should have waited for the SM to fight the Necrons before entering to clear up the mess.
Unless of course the SM are incapable of doing so. :D

stormblade
09-09-2007, 11:15
And i have no idea why Eldar are always written so poorly... Eldar usually Manipulates other races without sustaining much casualty. I can't believe Taldeer guided the SM vessle through the Warp at her expense of her health. =.= She should seduced the Librarian to do so !!! :)

-You are aware that SM are not really into that kind of things- A librarian would sooner try to bash the Xeno's head than fall to her charms.

But manipulation is not necessarily about seduction.

robertsjf
09-09-2007, 15:55
And i have no idea why Eldar are always written so poorly... Eldar usually Manipulates other races without sustaining much casualty. I can't believe Taldeer guided the SM vessle through the Warp at her expense of her health. =.= She should seduced the Librarian to do so !!! :)


Because the Eldar aren't human and all of the BL novels are written by humans?

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 16:27
If you think Eldar in the BL novels are crap, write your own and send it to BL. See if they publish it and see if everyone thinks that your Eldar are done properly.

I admit. C.S. Goto is a crap writer but seriously, bashing him is beginning to get old. Write your own novel and see if you portray the Eldar right.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 16:29
Thank for the sentiment of that, Chilltouch, i.e. it is getting seriously old. Again, we can do it for numerous BL authors depending on your preferences. (As an example, I for one intensely dislike Xenology, but others absolutely love that thing for some reason unknown to me.)

Also, I doubt that BL is going to accept unsolicited submissions. In fact, doesn't their website state as much?

Kage

MrBigMr
09-09-2007, 17:36
If you think Eldar in the BL novels are crap, write your own and send it to BL. See if they publish it and see if everyone thinks that your Eldar are done properly.
That's like saying if one doesn't like Hollywood movies, direct your own. Easier said than done. Even if you could write it, you'd have to get it through to BL (and only BL). It's not like they can publish anything they want, even if it was good. They have their proper channels to go through. And how I understand the stuff from their forum and website, you first have to be able to grasp the generic BL style before you can even hope to get something more interesting to write about.

But if you're not interested on publication, you can always write it as fanfic, but that's more for yourself than for others. You ain't gonna get much out of it apart from few hardcore fans.

Screw it, if I'm going to write stuff, I'll write my own crap. But I would be interested on more alien and non-Imperial novels. As for Goto, I looked at few of the novels, but they realy didn't catch my fancy.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2007, 17:49
Sorry if I sound stupid, But what is so bad about C.S Goto? Apart from the multi-laser thing in Warrior Brood the rest of his wrok was good. Not bad, fairly decent.

The pestilent 1
09-09-2007, 17:56
If this is Goto were are talking about, there is nothing short of quiting the BL that would improve the work.

I personally hope that GW hires him personally and then makes him do all the Eldar fluff from here on out.


"It was as though a thousand fanboys cried out in pain and were suddenly silenced"


Lord_Crull: Eldar players hate him because he has space marines beat them up.
Oh, and a couple Slaanesh bits.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 18:09
And then it turned into another Goto-bashing session. :eyebrows:

Kage

MrBigMr
09-09-2007, 18:10
Lord_Crull: Eldar players hate him because he has space marines beat them up.
Oh, and a couple Slaanesh bits.
Oh, dear me. A big bad killing machine made for warfare beats a pantywaist with a smart brain. How can that be? Imagine a marine holding a farseer by the throat and pointing a bolt pistol at its head.
"See your way out of this."

I think it's wrong to thing the Eldar are somehow superior to all the other races. They're physically weak, their tech is like Imperial (only the most sturdy and universal is around anymore compared to what they used to have) and they're screwed pretty much all the time. Hell, lets not forget that they're not even the smartest nor purest race in the world. How else can one explain their fall?

I don't see Eldar swarming the enemy, but acting like ninjas. When everything they do goes according to plan, no one even knows they were there and the Eldar get what they were after. Even though I don't like elves/eldar much, they have their own value. I realy like the bit in CA2004 under Armored Company rules where a Farseer pops the head of an IG commander from across the battlefield.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2007, 18:16
Lord_Crull: Eldar players hate him because he has space marines beat them up.
Oh, and a couple Slaanesh bits.

And that's bad how?

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 18:19
Oh, dear me. A big bad killing machine made for warfare beats a pantywaist with a smart brain. How can that be? Imagine a marine holding a farseer by the throat and pointing a bolt pistol at its head.
"See your way out of this."
That's actually a somewhat funny variation of the obvious Matrix reference.


I think it's wrong to thing the Eldar are somehow superior to all the other races.
This, of course, depends entirely what you're talking about. For example, if you see them through the eyes of the Eldar, then it is entirely appropriate to see them as such. Through the eyes of another race? No, not really.

For another TV/film approach, consider how Vir Koto describes the Minbari in his report back to Centauri Prime, and how Londo Milari changes it. Thus, 40k.


They're physically weak...
From the 'fluff' we understand that they are more gracile, but physically weak? There's less evidence for that beyond the typical "elf" stereotype.


...their tech is like Imperial...
Wargame Balance, for the most part. Their technology is described as being far superior to the Imperium and, to be fair, it also makes a whole lot of reasonable sense.


Hell, lets not forget that they're not even the smartest nor purest race in the world.
Which world and compared to whom? Not saying that they're the smartest either, but still...


How else can one explain their fall?
Arrogance? They were hood-winked by an extra-dimensional entity?

Erm, that also sounds very familiar... <taps foot trying to figure it out> Oh yes, the Emperor, the Horus Heresy, yada-yada.

And this reminds me why I actually model things in RPG. Stops all this vague hand-waving. ;)

Kage

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 18:21
To quote some other player, one of his books apparently contains 180 pages of a farseer being brutally tortured.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2007, 18:23
To quote some other player, one of his books apparently contains 180 pages of a farseer being brutally tortured.

Which one is it? It might make good reading.:evilgrin::evilgrin:

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 18:26
I've read all the Goto novels and really cannot remember such... extensive torture scenes.

And, of course, yet more Goto bashing.

The arguments from the "Eldar players" that always seems to come out is that Goto was "belittling" the Eldar. What it seems was really meant was that they were "belittling the Eldar players in the eyes of the other players." All rather silly.

Kage

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 18:40
I believe it's "Dawn of War: Tempest".

MrBigMr
09-09-2007, 18:43
That's actually a somewhat funny variation of the obvious Matrix reference.
It is? Didn't make it as such.


This, of course, depends entirely what you're talking about. For example, if you see them through the eyes of the Eldar, then it is entirely appropriate to see them as such. Through the eyes of another race? No, not really.
Well, naturally when you use the PoV look, every single race in 40K is right and justified. I do agree that the Eldar view themselves as superior, but just because they do, it doesn't make them so.


From the 'fluff' we understand that they are more gracile, but physically weak? There's less evidence for that beyond the typical "elf" stereotype.
Well, I doubt a craftworlder is stronger and tougher than a deathworlder. I don't mean they're some ratlings, but they were made for brain, not for brawn. That's why they're S3 T3 (which by 40K standards isn't very über).


Wargame Balance, for the most part. Their technology is described as being far superior to the Imperium and, to be fair, it also makes a whole lot of reasonable sense.
Well, what I've read, they had plenty of nasty tech before the fall, but some of them requiers plenty of knowledge and understanding to make, where as laser and shuriken weapons are cheap and easy, like lasguns and bolters. Sure, they're more 'high tech' to Imperial ones, but the concept is the same, sturdy reliable tech instead of state of the art stuff.


Which world and compared to whom? Not saying that they're the smartest either, but still...
Tau ain't corrupted by Chaos, humans didn't create a Chaos god, etc. I'm not trying to kick the Eldar down, but maybe down a notch. They might think they're the best of all and that everyone is beneath them, but they're as crap as any other race in the world. Hell, on some points even more. I don't know other races with lacking morals on interspecies relationships. By GW fluff those rangers get busy way too often. No wonder Slaanesh is of their own making.


Arrogance? They were hood-winked by an extra-dimensional entity?

Erm, that also sounds very familiar... <taps foot trying to figure it out> Oh yes, the Emperor, the Horus Heresy, yada-yada.
Hey, I'm not sayint other races are better, just that the Eldar aren't so far above as the rest of us grunts. They still put their space panties on one leg at a time.

Bregalad
09-09-2007, 19:46
Sorry if I sound stupid, But what is so bad about C.S Goto? Apart from the multi-laser thing in Warrior Brood the rest of his wrok was good. Not bad, fairly decent.
I won't get into detail, as you can read most in this thread:
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/54303-cs-goto-hates-eldar.html
It's basically:
1.) He doesn't know the basics of Eldar background (too many examples)
2.) He shows them as being totally incompetent and weak.
3.) He kills them by the dozen, "piles of mutilated Eldar bodies" being his favorite phrase.
4.) He enjoys scenes where Eldar are tortured, mutilated, abducted etc. Favorite victims are high level women (farseers, Exarchs) and children.
5.) Every second Eldar is a Slaanesh worshipper, which contradicts most peoples view of Eldar background, but allows further perverse scenes.

Female Farseer Taldeer is tortured and mutilated for 180 pages in "Tempest".

SV_Harlequin
09-09-2007, 20:28
Well, what I've read, they had plenty of nasty tech before the fall, but some of them requiers plenty of knowledge and understanding to make, where as laser and shuriken weapons are cheap and easy, like lasguns and bolters. Sure, they're more 'high tech' to Imperial ones, but the concept is the same, sturdy reliable tech instead of state of the art stuff.
A Shuriken weapon is actually a hell of a lot more complicated , a Botler is still a black powder weapon. Shuriken Weapons use something akin to rail or gauss tech to fire, not to mention they have no actual mechanism they are fired by psychic control


like Bregalad says but not just for the Eldar though it does appear to screw up Eldar stuff more. He just conmpletely ingore the fluff entirely the main thing being Alien Hunters/Ordos Xenos/Death Watch Allying themselves with Aliens even it they are Eldar

But on the Eldar thing:
Dark Eldar having web portal access to Ulthwe
Eldrad being in league with Slaanesh
Dark Eldar Wyches (specifically Hesprex spl? worshipping Slaanesh)
Scale inconstisances (Eldar shorter than Marine yet clearly been stated since Eldar came about that they are Natuarally as tall as a engineered human)

robertsjf
09-09-2007, 20:33
Well, I doubt a craftworlder is stronger and tougher than a deathworlder. I don't mean they're some ratlings, but they were made for brain, not for brawn. That's why they're S3 T3 (which by 40K standards isn't very über).


Wait, isn't S3T3 the exact same stats as a Catachan guardsman? Supposedly the badest, meanest, strongest guardsmen ever? You know, Baby Ogryn? Maybe S3T3 is the generic stateline for anything vaguely humanoid with extreme or extrodinary toughness or strength (SM or Orks)?

Vesica
09-09-2007, 20:36
Im not a huge Eldar fan (i do have a few lists writen and a list of models i want) and i am very pleased to hear about a good eldar book.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 20:55
It is? Didn't make it as such.
Yeah, perhaps, but it was funny.


I do agree that the Eldar view themselves as superior, but just because they do, it doesn't make them so.
Of course not. It then becomes a question of how you measure "superiority."


Well, I doubt a craftworlder is stronger and tougher than a deathworlder.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that they're "weak." It just means that a deathworlder is, in your estimation, stronger.

If it makes any difference, I don't view Eldar as inherently stronger than the "average human."


That's why they're S3 T3 (which by 40K standards isn't very über).
I'm afraid that I'm not going to go down the route of trying to judge everything by the wargame standards. It's too difficult to figure out what it all means.


Sure, they're more 'high tech' to Imperial ones, but the concept is the same, sturdy reliable tech instead of state of the art stuff.
Ah, the argument where everyone has to be low-tech...?


...humans didn't create a Chaos god, etc....
That depends on which source you rely upon, MrBigMr. :D


...but they're as crap as any other race in the world. Hell, on some points even more.
And thus we're back to Wargame Balance and what some might consider the Theme of the 40k universe. Surely?


Hey, I'm not sayint other races are better, just that the Eldar aren't so far above as the rest of us grunts. They still put their space panties on one leg at a time.
I, on the other hand, believe that they are a vastly more advanced species, even if they have been subject to their own 'fall.'

Before I touch Bregelad's posts, I will like to point out yet again that I did not like Goto's representation of the Eldar, nor do I agree with it. At the same time I do not believe he warrants the kind of hate-fest that he generates, at least when compared to a consideration of his BL peers.


1.) He doesn't know the basics of Eldar background (too many examples)
You can say the same thing about most of the authors, at least insofar as it comes down to reference to the original WD127 article. ;)


2.) He shows them as being totally incompetent and weak.
And the Guard are represented similarly, even though originally the Guard were the "elite of the elite," which admittedly covers many evils.


3.) He kills them by the dozen, "piles of mutilated Eldar bodies" being his favorite phrase.
Just reads like some of the other novels, Bregelad.


4.) He enjoys scenes where Eldar are tortured, mutilated, abducted etc. Favorite victims are high level women (farseers, Exarchs) and children.
Which can be argued to represent the barbarity of the attackers, since these are common images presented in the media. That is, the real world media. Thus while you can argue it is "violating the Eldar," you could also suggest that it does little to highlight the viciousness of the supposedly victorious Imperium. Thus it becomes a morality issue.

But there we go. A somewhat obvious counter-argument.


5.) Every second Eldar is a Slaanesh worshipper, which contradicts most peoples view of Eldar background, but allows further perverse scenes.
50% of the Eldar are Slaanesh worshippers, or so Goto implies? Is this what you're stating, or do you think that Kaelor might be an exception?


Female Farseer Taldeer is tortured and mutilated for 180 pages in "Tempest".
There is 180 pages specifically dealing with the torture of Taldeer? Continuous pages that deal with nothing else?

Again, if you're going to produce such scathing criticism of one author, perhaps it should be levelled against other authors. Consider the hate-fests against Gav Thorpe, or those mentioned against Abnett when Eisenhorn was originally released. And yet some authors are untouched, as if they are somehow producing sheer genius, which is self-evidently (or at least arguably) not the case.

Does he ignore the 'fluff'? No more than other authors.

And if you believe that I'm protecting Goto because I don't like the Eldar? Well, I merely point you to my normal Eldar-phile status and my interpretation of the Eldar that differs so significantly from what appears to be the "common approach" to them.

Kage

MrBigMr
09-09-2007, 21:05
A Shuriken weapon is actually a hell of a lot more complicated , a Botler is still a black powder weapon. Shuriken Weapons use something akin to rail or gauss tech to fire, not to mention they have no actual mechanism they are fired by psychic control
Shurikens use gravitational fields, not magnetic. But to an Eldar it might be harder to make a bolter than a shuriken catapult, ever though about that? It's the same reason why they use Wraithbone and not other, better (as in stronger etc.) materials. Simply because they have it up the wazoo and have the means to make it.

A shuriken catapult is still a pretty basic weapon and not even that good due to the short range and low accurasy. But as a basic infantry weapon that you can give to conscripted guardians and march them to war it's more than enough.


Wait, isn't S3T3 the exact same stats as a Catachan guardsman? Supposedly the badest, meanest, strongest guardsmen ever? You know, Baby Ogryn? Maybe S3T3 is the generic stateline for anything vaguely humanoid with extreme or extrodinary toughness or strength (SM or Orks)?
Yes, by 40K level it is. S3 T3 are the basic stats to a basic humanoid creature, taking into count anything from a couch potato to a highly trained athlete. But on a fluff level I refuce to believe a tall slim Eldar would somehow be stronger than a deathworlder with a bicep the size a football. Those guys have to be big and tough to survive. The Eldar just live in their fancy places and work on their minds.

In Inquisitor stats the Eldar surely would be less tough and strong as a basic guardsman. Hell, the difference between S3 and S4 in Inquisitor is about S50 vs. S210.


Im not a huge Eldar fan (i do have a few lists writen and a list of models i want) and i am very pleased to hear about a good eldar book.
Oh, I am too. I would realy like to read one as I'm interested on any non-Imperial views I can find, just for fluff purposes. So far I've had to work on some fuzzy mental image of the Eldar and Tau and formulate that into my stories with limited success.

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 21:25
I believe hearing one time that Eldar have absolutely 0% use for fat and somehow convert everything into muscle instead, so have no fat. Despite their slender appearance, I view them as strong. Not like 'hulk smash' and punching through a brick wall but rather, the average Eldar is stronger than the average human, and about equal to the average Deathworlder.

Average Guardsmen in Inquisitor are also all essentially 50 stats. Eldar, I would say are about 55-60 on average when it comes to Strength and Toughness. Then their iniative is somewhere in the 90s, their WS and BS somewhere in the 70s and 80s, and most of their mental attributes in the 70s.

Eldar are physically superior race to humanity, or so I like to believe. I enjoy thinking of humanity as the race that's new to the galactic arena, while every other race has evolved to tear apart the toughest opponents.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 21:33
But to an Eldar it might be harder to make a bolter than a shuriken catapult, ever though about that?
Why?


It's the same reason why they use Wraithbone and not other, better (as in stronger etc.) materials.
Yet wraithbone and other Eldar psychoplastics are described as being as strong, if not stronger, than adamantium.


A shuriken catapult is still a pretty basic weapon and not even that good due to the short range and low accurasy.
Of course, it could also be just a weapon that is thematically associated with the Eldar. The rest can be laid down to Wargame Balance, perhaps?


But on a fluff level I refuce to believe a tall slim Eldar would somehow be stronger than a deathworlder with a bicep the size a football.
And I refuse to believe that an average deathworlder is going to have a bicept the size of a football.


Those guys have to be big and tough to survive.
Surely they just have to be tough. The big just buys into the Thrud and Conan the Barbarian imagery?


The Eldar just live in their fancy places and work on their minds.
Because, of course, there is no relationship to training the mind and training the body. Darn those martial artists for getting it wrong! ;)


In Inquisitor stats the Eldar surely would be less tough and strong as a basic guardsman. Hell, the difference between S3 and S4 in Inquisitor is about S50 vs. S210.
Average of 62 (Guardsman) versus 51 for a Ranger and 62 for a Pathfinder. Of course, once again you've got a "career"-based skill, which is fairly redundant when talking about average members of the race. That and the wargame is, once again, not that useful for this type of thing. After all, are you suggest that a Wraithlord has an Inquisitor strength of, say, 860,160.


So far I've had to work on some fuzzy mental image of the Eldar...
Given GW's approach, that really isn't that surprising. :D


I believe hearing one time that Eldar have absolutely 0% use for fat and somehow convert everything into muscle instead, so have no fat.
Ah, thus Xenology. Something that is worth as much 'hate-festing' as anything of Goto...

Kage

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 21:41
Kage: The average of 62 is for Guard Veterans.

And I am okay with Xenology. It's nice and informative and not fluff-ruining.

Kage2020
09-09-2007, 21:44
Ah, yes, the same reason that a Marine Captain is stronger than a Marine? ;) Or does that mean that the S characteristic really doesn't translate to just physical strength?

Fair enough with regards to Xenology. I consider it to be tripe of the first degree and, in many ways, so much worse than what Goto produced. After all, Goto supposedly violates only the 'fluff' of one race, whereas Spurrier does it for far, far more races.

Kage

Chilltouch
09-09-2007, 21:51
Yes, the same reason that a Marine Captain is stronger than a Marine. Do you know what that reason is? Combat experience. To become a veteran, you have to fight a lot. The more you fight, the stronger you become. Expect a veteran to be 'arder than a Guardsman straight from the barracks.

And Spurrier doesn't 'violate' the background. From what I know, he just elaborates and adds to it.

FarseerMatt
09-09-2007, 22:45
Sorry for replying to something so far back but there've been 3 pages of replies since this morning (!)


Just curious, you did conversion for your models to make them females? So you gave them Boob Jobs using Green Stuff? Haha... It's so sex change operation.

Hehe no, my Dire Avengers are the old models (the ones which are are basically Guadians with alternative helmets and sashes) and one in four of the bodies on the sprue is female so I just used those. Same for the "guardian leaders". Banshee models are already female so no problems there :P


Oh, dear me. A big bad killing machine made for warfare beats a pantywaist with a smart brain. How can that be? Imagine a marine holding a farseer by the throat and pointing a bolt pistol at its head.
"See your way out of this."

I'm guessing the Farseer would have instantly fried the marine's brain with Mind War - mind over matter :P (that or a hundred years ago get a ranger to assassinate the marine as a kid before he became a marine and hence he never actually manages to hold a bolt pistol to the Farseer's head :D )


I think it's wrong to thing the Eldar are somehow superior to all the other races. They're physically weak, their tech is like Imperial (only the most sturdy and universal is around anymore compared to what they used to have)

I disagree - weak compared to a space marine yes, but then so is everyone :rolleyes: They are about the same strength overall as a human, maybe slightly stronger, and when you consider they are of much slighter build then their power-to-weight ratio must be higher.


When everything they do goes according to plan, no one even knows they were there and the Eldar get what they were after. Even though I don't like elves/eldar much, they have their own value. I realy like the bit in CA2004 under Armored Company rules where a Farseer pops the head of an IG commander from across the battlefield.

I agree with you here though. Hey, maybe Eldar do feature in more BL books - they just manipulated events so subtly that even the authors didn't know they were doing it :D

Tanith Ghost
09-09-2007, 23:42
I'm guessing the Farseer would have instantly fried the marine's brain with Mind War - mind over matter :P (that or a hundred years ago get a ranger to assassinate the marine as a kid before he became a marine and hence he never actually manages to hold a bolt pistol to the Farseer's head :D )


Except that in his unbeliveable arrogance the farseer dicounted the possible threat from a mon-keigh child, not wanting to loose a ranger on a marine homeworld, and thus found himself in his current straights. Only to find a marine's mind much tougher to break than a humans, and his own splattered to the winds along with his brains.:evilgrin:

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 00:37
Hehe alright then, he pulls some strings so that Orks invade the world and kill the kid (along with millions of other humans but bah, what do mon-keigh matter...) and no Eldar have to die at all.

Hellebore
10-09-2007, 01:03
One thing he did mention on several occasions is that he is pretty much prohibited by his editors at the BL from writing about the Eldar defeating the imperium.


There is no hope for the eldar or any other supported and 'loved' race in 40k if the editors of BL refuse point blank to have anyone defeat imperial forces in a novel:eyebrows:

If any of this is true, the above is all that is needed to ensure that the eldar will NEVER have any hope in fiction.

One thing I liked about WFB and 40k, was that every army got the same amount of air time, and were not inherently superior to each other, they were all balanced somehow.

It makes financial sense to sell every race equally, otherwise no one will play an entire line of your miniatures.

But if BL refuses to allow the races that GW sells as armies to have their own stories, where they emerge victorious, then all it does is reinforce the image that all those armies are just window dressing for imperial armies to destroy indescriminately.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
10-09-2007, 01:33
Hehe alright then, he pulls some strings so that Orks invade the world and kill the kid (along with millions of other humans but bah, what do mon-keigh matter...) and no Eldar have to die at all.

The marines arrive and kill all the orks and rescue the surviviors, leading the kid to become a marine and then he blows the Farseer's brains out with his bolt pistol.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 01:55
The marines arrive and kill all the orks and rescue the surviviors, leading the kid to become a marine and then he blows the Farseer's brains out with his bolt pistol.

"Oh for Isha's sake..." mutters the Farseer, and pulls yet more strings so that the marines are given wrong directions to his house, but end up discovering a nice little Chaos cult on some other nearby world and so can cheerfully get their brain-blowing fix on them instead. Everyone's happy.

Khaine's Messenger
10-09-2007, 02:11
The only thing I dislike about the Eldar who show up in the various novels is their tendency to summon the Avatar and a full war-host whenever a Farseer needs to pick his/her nose. Quite often, their manipulations prove to be for naught, and they feel this absurd requirement to finish the job personally, by going blade to blade, spell to spell with the big beasty in true Heroic Fantasy* style. This bizarre sort of pride ruins the suspension of disbelief that the Eldar require. For works like those related to Dawn of War, this is absolutely unavoidable--since the Eldar are a player race in the game, they have to have a significant military presence in the game, and therefore a significant military presence in any story related to the game. But, for example, Eldrad Ulthran's appearance in Fulgrim...it was a checklist for how the Eldar usually appear in 40k stories. Not absolutely terrible, but somewhat disappointing. Even the vignettes about Eldrad shaking hands with Creed during BC13 was more moving (which is, incidentally, the reason I would prefer for him to stay "dead"--but that's another thread!).

I do think most of the novels do a fairly accurate rendition of the immense sorrow and hubris associated with the Eldar. But...you get the feeling sometimes that this is all they are. And sometimes, when you've read too much of the hubris, it sublimes directly into stupidity. Which, again, breaks suspension of disbelief something fierce.

But is it all this way? Not really, no. Farseer and Lord of the Night are pretty good as their inclusion of Eldar go, and Ghostmaker isn't all that shabby. This is why I dislike the tendency to portray certain authors as the "definitive" author for new and unexplored territory.

* The very same that confuses people new to the hobby about the sword and sorcery approach adopted even by the Imperium....

Drasriath
10-09-2007, 02:15
Okay, to clarify. He asked me to keep things quiet while we were still communicating. He didn't want our letter back and forth becoming a interview for a forum somewhere. My only reason for posting here was to explain that he had given a bit of ground and at least seen that his work was upsetting Eldar fans.

As for replies to all of you,

Female Eldar:
They're as likely to be female as male is what the codecies have all said, with the exception of Howling Banshees who are predominantly female. My own army, when on display has all female leaders as my craftworld (Iybraesil) Is cited several times as being matriarchal.

On Kage not remembering such extensive torture scenes:
I got an ebook copy of the book in question so that I could quote from Goto's own work to further prove my points and while it was a rather painful undertaking, I obtained many-an-excerpt. As for Taldeer's torture it was a long, excrutiating read. I believe that Bregalad is exagerating a bit, but not much. I'd rather not paste it here, as I honestly don't want to look at it again myself, but I can just offer tidbits that are burned into my memory like "Leaking tissue from empty eye-sockets" and "A mess of flesh and sraphnel where her abdomen should have been". I think that's probably enough for now. It's something a space marine player will never have to suffer through, seeing their 'untouchable' favorite character mangled and beaten like that... though I have to admit I really do wish it upon almost all of them after what Eldar fans have to put up with.

And yes, so it's known... I've contacted the BL as a whole as well, but they didn't show enough concern to reply. Perhaps any of you who are offended should do the same. If you'd like something to change, do something about it. Don't just sit on the internet and whine to people who are sympathetic, make up the minds of people who AREN'T.

I agree. It does completely seem like Eldar ESPECIALLY are just shelf-fillers for the Imperium to beat on. Their rule set has never been satisfactory, they've never been respected in the BL or in the fluff pieces in codecies, infact their treatment has altogether been disgusting since I began collecting 8-9 years ago.

Hmmm... Anyway, this has gone a bit off-topic. Please, go ahead and make your own complaints as well, but try to be civil like I was. People aren't going to help our cause by sounding immature and uneducated.


The marines arrive and kill all the orks and rescue the surviviors, leading the kid to become a marine and then he blows the Farseer's brains out with his bolt pistol.

Get a life, fanboi, if you're going to post, be productive like other people have tried to be. Posts like that just waste everyone's time.

Tanith Ghost
10-09-2007, 03:52
Get a life, fanboi, if you're going to post, be productive like other people have tried to be. Posts like that just waste everyone's time.


You first. You're the one with a case of nerd rage over your space elves I mean eladar getting mashed.:eyebrows:

Drasriath
10-09-2007, 05:56
You first. You're the one with a case of nerd rage over your space elves I mean eladar getting mashed.:eyebrows:

Congrats! Have a taste of my... REPORTED

Furthermore... is an Eladar like an Eldar?

Brimstone
10-09-2007, 06:30
Get a life, fanboi, if you're going to post, be productive like other people have tried to be. Posts like that just waste everyone's time.


You first. You're the one with a case of nerd rage over your space elves I mean eladar getting mashed.:eyebrows:

Now now children behave or I'll take your toys away.

The Warseer Inquisition

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 09:00
Get a life, fanboi, if you're going to post, be productive like other people have tried to be. Posts like that just waste everyone's time.

I'll apologise as well seeing as my counter-posts were just as pointless as his. Sorry.

Bregalad
10-09-2007, 09:43
Some examples from the novel "Tempest" (Taldeer martyrium and Harlequin massacres) can be found here:
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/54303-cs-goto-hates-eldar-2.html
(post #33).
I don't want to read anything like that again.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 10:04
Bloody hell. Poor Taldeer :cries: Maybe I'm just squeamish but what kind of mysogenistic sadist (is it just me or does he always pick on the women? In particular the Eldar ones!?)...you're right Bregalad, you'd think Eldar had raped and murdered his wife.

I'm not gonna form too much of an opinion on Goto seeing as I've never read any of his books cover-to-cover. To be fair I did read a snippet from one which seemed reasonably good prose in spite of the fluff inaccuracies (Eldar wraithguard use some sort of projectile weapon that patters harmlessly off power armour instead of their trademark wraithcannons, while the marines blow chunks out of them with their bolters. He's got the right idea that Wraithguard are hard to kill, but it's meant to be because wraithbone is really hard stuff. Plus I'd always thought that spirit stones were pretty much indestructable to physical attack, and yet a marine breaks one with his thunder hammer. The bit where the Farseer just glances at some humans and the entire squad turns itself inside out was entertaining though - I imagine he read the bit about alpha-level psykers being able to rip people apart and crush titans and figured Farseers were at least as powerful as human alphas...quite true. Nice to see that Farseers aren't just palm-readers and can lay the psychic smackdown when required)

Iracundus
10-09-2007, 12:44
Except that Eldar psykers are supposed to be more circumspect due to the need to avoid drawing daemonic attention to their bright souls in the warp. Doing blatant things like tearing apart Titans or turning people inside out is more along the lines of what a human psyker or Chaos psyker would do since that would really be just power (and rather indisciplined power) rather than fine control. While the Eldar do have some more overt powers, the rest is more subtle or focused with less flashy pyrotechnics. A Farseer causing multiple major vessels in a person's brain to rupture gets the person as dead as turning them inside out, and probably for less expenditure of psychic power too. Unfortunately the BL writers and readership seem to as a whole prefer the more blatant gory stuff.

stormblade
10-09-2007, 13:35
Those are some nasty scenes- but when you remember that the point of the existence of dark Eldar is mostly torturing humans you don't recall anybody complaining about that.

Although the author gets a bit too descriptive with that shrapnel abdomen and such- it somehow seems unfitting of SM to waste so much of Emperor's time on torture.

MrBigMr
10-09-2007, 14:50
Where are you Rockefella? A whole thread on Eldar and he's nowhere to be seen. I have to take on all this on my own.


I believe hearing one time that Eldar have absolutely 0% use for fat and somehow convert everything into muscle instead, so have no fat. Despite their slender appearance, I view them as strong. Not like 'hulk smash' and punching through a brick wall but rather, the average Eldar is stronger than the average human, and about equal to the average Deathworlder.
Both I and an Eldar player friend of mine view the Eldar as more of having agility and stamina over strenght and endurance. The Eldar have hightened senses and with no body fat to soften the blow every hit they take hurts like hell. I do agree that an average Eldar might be stronger and more fit than an average human, but Eldar are pretty fit from the start where as humans would have to train long and hard and would that way surpass the pointy ears.

Hell, we both had a good laugh the other day when playing his Eldar vs. my IG. For like 3 turns my junior officer and his swooping hawk exarch were locked in CC, until my JO, disregarding any common sense knocked the crap out of that Eldar.


Eldar are physically superior race to humanity, or so I like to believe. I enjoy thinking of humanity as the race that's new to the galactic arena, while every other race has evolved to tear apart the toughest opponents.
New, eh? Is that a fire warrior I'm seeing in your avatar? Maybe we should think that statement over. Yes, humans are relatively new, but look at all the stuff they've managed to do in that time. The Tau, Kroot and such "newer" races are far behind and all the "old" races are pushed aside. Humans rule the galaxy at the moment.

As for physically superior... I would agree on mentaly, but they have bad things about them as well, so they're not that good on all fronts.


Why?
What resources does an Eldar have into making of a bolter? I don't see them using much metals, so first they would have to extract ore, process it, know how to make the right mix to get the right alloy and then forge it. Then they would have to know the exact mechanism of the bolter and machine right parts. For that they would need more machines to stamp and mill the metal parts. Then they would need chemicals to make the propellant and other stuff to make the detonator and such.

By the time they've done all that for a single bolter, a bonesinger would have sung an arsenal of catapults. And in the future they would have to keep on gathering ore and chemicals for their bolters where as psychoplastics are far easier to make and shape.


Yet wraithbone and other Eldar psychoplastics are described as being as strong, if not stronger, than adamantium.
Then why are Eldar things so crappy? Ok, Wraithguard/lord has 3+ save, but a terminator with few slaps of adamantium has 2+. As for the rest their tanks are only AV12 and in BFG Eldar ships are the weakest of them all. I do think Wraithbone is strong and good material, but the best of the best? Come on.


Of course, it could also be just a weapon that is thematically associated with the Eldar. The rest can be laid down to Wargame Balance, perhaps?
Perhaps, but if it truly is somehow great, why do so few use them? Only guardians have them and they're the conscripts of the Eldar. I wouldn't mind the catapults having more range, but so far my friends guardians have managed fine from the rear with their HW platform.


And I refuse to believe that an average deathworlder is going to have a bicept the size of a football.
There are two types of people in the world, my friend: Those who believe and those who refuse to.


Because, of course, there is no relationship to training the mind and training the body. Darn those martial artists for getting it wrong! ;)
But put a martial artist and a 400lbs. hulk of muscle into a ring and take away the rules, and we'll see who wins. Rarely have I seen in some ultimate fighting type of events house many fancy martial artists and even those who take part are hammered down by basic brute force. Even in military martial arts only the most basic and effective moves are kept.

And even martial arts are quite often more about balance of body and mind than pure combat oriented skills. You train so that you don't have to fight. I would find such things to be more about aiding the Eldar to control their minds and bodies. Doesn't the fluff say young Eldar lack control and are far more septible to corruption or such?


Average of 62 (Guardsman) versus 51 for a Ranger and 62 for a Pathfinder. Of course, once again you've got a "career"-based skill, which is fairly redundant when talking about average members of the race. That and the wargame is, once again, not that useful for this type of thing. After all, are you suggest that a Wraithlord has an Inquisitor strength of, say, 860,160.
Why not? It's a freaking huge thing, you know.


Given GW's approach, that really isn't that surprising. :D
Yeah, well, I would realy like to be more accurate, but so far it's the tabletop version (not the strongest, but with good planning and hit hard) vs. fanboyz (da Eldarz is the best, you cannots win them evar!). I've gotten some flak about having some "things that w/could never happen" and "an Eldar would never do that" things, but gimme a good and balanced example and I'll try it out. I do admit that some things are purely for story telling purposes. But I doubt some outcast Eldar pirates are as organized and skilled as craftworld ones.


Ah, thus Xenology. Something that is worth as much 'hate-festing' as anything of Goto...
I'm still interested on what the two fleshy things attached to the chest of female Eldar are if they're not breasts. And lets not forget that by Xenology Tau females are pretty similar to male Tau and Ethereals have toes not hooves. So far by fluff and such neither is true.


Yes, the same reason that a Marine Captain is stronger than a Marine. Do you know what that reason is? Combat experience. To become a veteran, you have to fight a lot. The more you fight, the stronger you become. Expect a veteran to be 'arder than a Guardsman straight from the barracks.
Life isn't WoW. Just because you're more experienced doesn't mean you're any stronger. You might be weaker than before, but with experience you learn to direct your blows to where it hurts. By what you're saying, our old company commander should have been able to kick all our asses in a row, but there were plenty of guys stronger and tougher than that pencil pusher.


I'm guessing the Farseer would have instantly fried the marine's brain with Mind War - mind over matter :P (that or a hundred years ago get a ranger to assassinate the marine as a kid before he became a marine and hence he never actually manages to hold a bolt pistol to the Farseer's head :D )
That's why the marine is holding the Farseer by the throat, cutting off blood flow to the brain. And what about if the Farseer didn't buy Mind War? He/she's screwed then.

And I never realy got that "oh, they just see that happening long before you even think about it and aborts your mommy" crap. If the Eldar could do that all the time, why are they getting bashed time after time? I like more the emo "oh, we're done for and nobody cares" attitude than "oh, this is just a minor setback, everything is going according to plan." So far all I've read on the Eldar does support the former.


If any of this is true, the above is all that is needed to ensure that the eldar will NEVER have any hope in fiction.
Well, this came up in one other thread. Basicly 40K is the Imperium with all the other races being the clay pigeons for them to shoot at. Why else would all the stuff (fluff and such) be written from Imperial PoV? Sucks to tell the truth. Humans can never be defeated, but other races are good for slaughter (as has already happened...)

Chilltouch
10-09-2007, 16:52
Well, Tau are even newer to the galactic arena. They're terrible. I can barely see how they would survive.

Inquisitor isn't life either. It's for the movie scenes of 40K, the car chases and big duels. And in movie scenes, veterans are usually big ol' tough bastards who eat nails for breakfast with no milk. Also, note that the example of a "Guard Veteran" is a muscle-bound berserking Gland Warrior.

Kage2020
10-09-2007, 17:05
Yes, the same reason that a Marine Captain is stronger than a Marine. Do you know what that reason is? Combat experience.
Well, that is a reasonable point and shows once again that interpreting strength singularly is problematic. With that said, there is a difference between combat experience and strength that should not be overlooked. That and the fact that the idea that things get 'stronger' as they go up in the ranks is a hold over from the wargame.


And Spurrier doesn't 'violate' the background. From what I know, he just elaborates and adds to it.
LOL. That's a matter of perspective, Chilltouch. In my mind he did much violence to the background.


As for Taldeer's torture it was a long, excrutiating read. I believe that Bregalad is exagerating a bit, but not much.
Again, I strongly doubt that the torture is 180 pages - all but one half of a book - in continuous text. That it might start one, say, page 25 then move to something else (probably combat) and then occasionally return to the topic for 180 pages, is more reasonable. Indeed, I just took a look through Dawn of War: Tempest, as cited, and did not find one half of it detailing the torture of Taldeer... or even a third of it. Admittedly I skimmed through it since I didn't want to read it again (ick), but such a significant amount taken towards torture would have shown up.

I'm going to have to edit this since I see that Bregelad once again brings up his post where he posts quotes. I need to check the 100 or 200-or-so pages around the references that he gives.


I'd rather not paste it here, as I honestly don't want to look at it again myself, but I can just offer tidbits that are burned into my memory like "Leaking tissue from empty eye-sockets" and "A mess of flesh and sraphnel where her abdomen should have been".
And...? It's a tiny bit gruesome but I really don't see a problem with it. I'm guessing it was there, once again, to represent the brutality of war or the Marines.


...though I have to admit I really do wish it upon almost all of them after what Eldar fans have to put up with.
While I agree that the "heroic writing" stance that is the flavour of the Marine is unlikely to be visited in such a way, I really don't see why this is belittling. Further, are you really that surprised by the approach of BL since it mirrors that of GW itself?

Again, it says much about GW not the Eldar players, or those who love the Eldar 'fluff.'


Don't just sit on the internet and whine to people who are sympathetic, make up the minds of people who AREN'T.
A darned good point.


...they've never been respected in the BL or in the fluff pieces in codecies...
Again, what does the 'fluff' have to do with a lack of respect? Would you want the same arguments against Marine-centrism applied to the Eldar. Indeed, I'm sure that the "Imperial fanbois" are sharpening their claws against the "Eldar fanbois" at the very prospect.

Create your own interpretation of the Eldar, or rather the 40k universe, that doesn't subscribe to the whim of GW.


...you're right Bregalad, you'd think Eldar had raped and murdered his wife.
The fact that this has that reaction probably points much to the desire of the author. I know that it's a pulp reference, but consider the arguments against women in the front lines of combat presented in G.I. Jane -- rightly so there is little that is going to offend people as much as that kind of brutality.

Again, I'm not defending the 'fluff' content of the books - whether accuracy or quantity - but find it difficult to see the Goto-bashing as anything but churlish whining. Sorry for that, but it's just how it strikes me at this moment.


Plus I'd always thought that spirit stones were pretty much indestructable to physical attack, and yet a marine breaks one with his thunder hammer.
Perhaps the idea was to imply how tough it was? After all, power weapons are things that allow people to tear holes in tanks and, well, tanks are tough. A little bit of "glass" needs a Thunder Hammer to break it? Again, perhaps it is the implications rather than the "details." After all, much of the 40k writing is about 'feel' rather than just what it means.

Of course, that doesn't even go down the route of the "inaccuracies" of the wargame in scaling the different, erm, scales of weapons. That is, however, another topic.


Unfortunately the BL writers and readership seem to as a whole prefer the more blatant gory stuff.
Except against their favourite race, of course. ;)


Although the author gets a bit too descriptive with that shrapnel abdomen and such- it somehow seems unfitting of SM to waste so much of Emperor's time on torture.
But... they're aliens!? They do no deserve life, but that doesn't mean you fail to get what information they hold out of them. Even if it does require vivisection.


What resources does an Eldar have into making of a bolter? I don't see them using much metals, so first they would have to extract ore, process it, know how to make the right mix to get the right alloy and then forge it.
First, the above exhibits preference and interpretation. Consider, for example, the Eldar were originally described as using the metallic alloy, eldaril. Even with that said, what difference does it make whether it is constructed of wraithbone or not? After all, wraithbone has been described as being much stronger than adamantium, so it's not unreasonable to suggest lesser strengths to other psychoplastics. This might give them similar physical properties in terms of strength, durability, etc., as metals. Furthermore, consider the nature of modern weaponry and the use of advanced plastics and materials in their construction.

Again, just because they prefer to use "psychoplastics" doesn't mean that they lack the ability to refine metals, etc. Of course, my own bias shows through here since I see the Eldar straddling the two approaches of 'technology' and 'psychic engineering.' I get the impression that many people suggest that the Eldar use purely 'psychic engineering,' which basically comes down to them using "magic" for everything -- conjuring materials, enchanting objects to fling out objects, etc.

Fair enough, though.


Then why are Eldar things so crappy?
GW, the premise of the Thematic Army and, of course, Wargame Balance.


I do think Wraithbone is strong and good material, but the best of the best? Come on.
I didn't say "best of the best," merely pointed out the 'fluff' on the matter. Consider that diamond is considered incredibly strong, yet dip it into liquid nitrogen and then burn it with an oxy-acetylene torch (I believe) and it will burn to ash.


Perhaps, but if it truly is somehow great, why do so few use them?
Again, Wargame Balance.


There are two types of people in the world, my friend: Those who believe and those who refuse to.
Don't forget those that question and those that merely accept everything. ;)


And even martial arts are quite often more about balance of body and mind than pure combat oriented skills.
That was kind of the point.


Why not? It's a freaking huge thing, you know.
That's around 17,200 times stronger than the average human. Or, depending on how you model things, enough to be able to bench-press around 1,376 tons.

I wonder if they wear a red cape as well? ;)

Kage

MrBigMr
10-09-2007, 18:03
I can barely see how they would survive.
They sell?


And...? It's a tiny bit gruesome but I really don't see a problem with it. I'm guessing it was there, once again, to represent the brutality of war or the Marines.
It's amazing how detailed crap you can put into 40K storied (like on BL forum), but dear god do more than hint about sex and you get kickbanned for life.


First, the above exhibits preference and interpretation. Consider, for example, the Eldar were originally described as using the metallic alloy, eldaril. Even with that said, what difference does it make whether it is constructed of wraithbone or not?
You still need to know how a bolter works and I don't think they can pull all those chemical to propell the bolts out of their asses.

And is it a bolter then anymore? If Admech makes a butt ugly thing that flings out disks with magnetic fields (yes, Eldar ones use gravitational ones...), is it a shuriken weapon?


After all, wraithbone has been described as being much stronger than adamantium
Where is that, exactly? My friend doesn't remember reading it in the new codex nor have we seen anything about it in BFG rulebooks.


Furthermore, consider the nature of modern weaponry and the use of advanced plastics and materials in their construction.
In the casing and grips. The actual firing mechanisms are still metallic. And even some of those composite materials tend to break, like Glock slides and rifle stocks.


GW, the premise of the Thematic Army and, of course, Wargame Balance.
Or could it be that they're just crappy?


I didn't say "best of the best," merely pointed out the 'fluff' on the matter. Consider that diamond is considered incredibly strong, yet dip it into liquid nitrogen and then burn it with an oxy-acetylene torch (I believe) and it will burn to ash.
Ah, I see. So Wraithbone ship is a diamond, space is liquid nitrogen and lance battery is a oxy-acetylene torch that burns it to crisp.


Again, Wargame Balance.
Because they're crappy and Eldar players would go ape ship if all Eldar used catapults.


Don't forget those that question and those that merely accept everything. ;)
My boss asked me last week if I was religious (just a casual talk) and I said "Hell, I'll believe pretty much anything."


That's around 17,200 times stronger than the average human. Or, depending on how you model things, enough to be able to bench-press around 1,376 tons.
Well, as it's made of material pretty much equal to adamantium, if not even stronger, the frame should hold. And all the spirit(s) have to do is realy believe they can do it.

But lets not forget that in Inquisitor a marine punches harder than a plasma pistol or something. I don't know as out GM is pretty tight on stuff. You'll be lucky to get more than a lasgun and flak armor for your characters.

Kage2020
10-09-2007, 18:26
It's amazing how detailed crap you can put into 40K storied (like on BL forum), but dear god do more than hint about sex and you get kickbanned for life.
Such is the way of GW and BL. Perhaps quite reasonable considering what some believe to be their primary demographic, though it does mean that they consider violence to be far more reasonable than the other. Oh the joys.


You still need to know how a bolter works and I don't think they can pull all those chemical to propell the bolts out of their asses.
Again, preference is coming into play. I've explained my own bias, which is that Eldar straddle the gap that is often expressed as the polarisation between the Old Ones ('psychic engineering,' or magic) and the C'tan (technology) -- the ultimate bastard children, such that their 'technology' is both "magical" and "technological." It is... technomancy, but not in the sense that many ascribe to the Adeptus Mechanicus in terms of mystical approaches to technology. Rather, it is the melding of the two approaches. Thus Eldar artefacts utilise both mundane and warp science.

Anyway, the basic idea is that the Eldar have merely gone through this period in their technological development and found alternative methods. I find the argument that they do not understand fairly basic chemical reactions to be tenuous at best, as is the idea that they don't have access to chemicals.

Of course, if you wish to believe that they achieve everything through 'magic?' Well, that's cool enough for your own, and presumably others', interpretations. It's just not something that is universal, that's all.


And is it a bolter then anymore? If Admech makes a butt ugly thing that flings out disks with magnetic fields (yes, Eldar ones use gravitational ones...), is it a shuriken weapon?
It would be an Eldr interpretation of a bolter, but would be functionally similar. And strange that you mention human shuriken catapults, since they are expressly mentioned in the 'fluff.' :D


Where is that, exactly? My friend doesn't remember reading it in the new codex nor have we seen anything about it in BFG rulebooks.
You've caught me. I remember reading it in the older material, but cannot remember where. As to the new codex? Try out the section on Eldar Technology in the "Eldar Craftworlds" section:


...The most unusual of these psycho-plastics is called wraithbone: an immensely resiliant substance, more difficult to damage than adamantium, and far more flexible. If it is damaged it will gradually repair itself...
As pointed out donkey's years ago on 'ole Portent, some might argue that this is remarkably like living metal, but there we go.


The actual firing mechanisms are still metallic. And even some of those composite materials tend to break, like Glock slides and rifle stocks.
A fair enough point. Consider, however, the above comments about wraithbone and, further, the nature of the bolter itself.


Or could it be that they're just crappy?
It's possible, of course. I personally feel that the agenda of Wargame Balance has more to answer for it when balanced against the background.


Ah, I see. So Wraithbone ship is a diamond, space is liquid nitrogen and lance battery is a oxy-acetylene torch that burns it to crisp.
Is adamantium immune to damage, MrBigMr? The background says that it is harder to damage than adamantium, but that doesn't mean that it is indestructible.

(And, god, while I hate to raise an old wargame mechanic, didn't the original Eldar army list give "energised wraithbone armour," or Rune Armour, an invulnerable save? Make of that what you will, since I don't really see too much utilisation in using the wargame in these discussions.)


Because they're crappy and Eldar players would go ape ship if all Eldar used catapults.
Perhaps. I'm making no judgements beyond the idea that the Eldar are technologically more advanced than the Imperium (despite the odd throw away comment that can be lain at the feet of humanocentrism). I really do not care about the wargame insofar as it sometimes has a malefic influence on the background. ;)


My boss asked me last week if I was religious (just a casual talk) and I said "Hell, I'll believe pretty much anything."
LOL. Then here's one for you: Kage is right. (Just kidding.) <grin>


Well, as it's made of material pretty much equal to adamantium, if not even stronger, the frame should hold. And all the spirit(s) have to do is realy believe they can do it.
There is no spoon? LOL. That's not a route that I would go down, but whatever twiddles your biscuit!


But lets not forget that in Inquisitor a marine punches harder than a plasma pistol or something.
Ah yes, the Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom! Not something that you have to remind me about, especially since I have been, on and off, engaged in a conversion of the 40k universe to an RPG universe. Suffice to say that this doesn't happen in that conversion. <grin>


I don't know as out GM is pretty tight on stuff. You'll be lucky to get more than a lasgun and flak armor for your characters.
They're probably going to love Dark Heresy (official 40k RPG produced by Black Industries (http://www.blackindustries.com)), then, although it seems to buy into much the same arguments as Inquisitor. Still, it also seems to be a definite notch up.

Kage

MrBigMr
10-09-2007, 19:12
Such is the way of GW and BL. Perhaps quite reasonable considering what some believe to be their primary demographic, though it does mean that they consider violence to be far more reasonable than the other. Oh the joys.
Yet we have things like Slaanesh, drugs, tittydaemons, rape and all that fun stuff in the fluff, but oh noes, we cannot talk about it at all. GW has realy gone on up the wazoo on their logic on sales. They do pretty mature stuff and then dumb it down to suit for kids. So what if there's a little brain matter, as long as you won't get exposed to anything nasty.


Anyway, the basic idea is that the Eldar have merely gone through this period in their technological development and found alternative methods. I find the argument that they do not understand fairly basic chemical reactions to be tenuous at best, as is the idea that they don't have access to chemicals.
Well, what I've read they went from swords and sorcery straight to Warp cannons, so they must have skipped gun powder on the way.


You've caught me. I remember reading it in the older material, but cannot remember where. As to the new codex? Try out the section on Eldar Technology in the "Eldar Craftworlds" section:

As pointed out donkey's years ago on 'ole Portent, some might argue that this is remarkably like living metal, but there we go.
I still refuse to believe it's simple game mechanics that makes Eldar things so crappy even if Wraithbone should be so tough. Isn't Adamantium like the toughest of materials, even if not 'indestructible'? And it's rare as well, right? So lets assume the Imperium doesn't equipe all their ships with that stuff to make them stronger. So why is it that Eldar tanks are AV12 while Tau ones, which I believe don't even have adamantium, are AV13 at best?

And I doubt the Imperium has enough of that stuff to make it into space ships, so why does an Eldar battleship, the big big ships made from the super Wraithbone have a worse armor save than a crappy Imperial escort. Hell, only ships in my Chaos fleet to match the Eldar armor is a lousy 30pts. destroyer.

And like I said, terminator armor = some plates of adamantium and 2+ save, Wraithlord made from Wraithbone, the stuff as good, if not better than adamantium = 3+ save.

Somewhere down the line the thing just doesn't add up to me.


A fair enough point. Consider, however, the above comments about wraithbone and, further, the nature of the bolter itself.
Ah, the 'nature' of the material. Just because the material is strong, doesn't make it good for all purposes. Flexible materials wouldn't make for a good chamber/barrel. It has to be sturdy and strong, able to hold back the pressure rather than cooping with it, giving away.

But they might have the ability make psychoplastics into strong hard material that doesn't break.


It's possible, of course. I personally feel that the agenda of Wargame Balance has more to answer for it when balanced against the background.
Yeah, when something is crappy it's about balance, but something is über strong it's fluffy.


Is adamantium immune to damage, MrBigMr? The background says that it is harder to damage than adamantium, but that doesn't mean that it is indestructible.
Well, I already answere this above, so I'll leave it at that.


(And, god, while I hate to raise an old wargame mechanic, didn't the original Eldar army list give "energised wraithbone armour," or Rune Armour, an invulnerable save? Make of that what you will, since I don't really see too much utilisation in using the wargame in these discussions.)
Don't Warlocks have Rune Armor today too? And so what if it has an Inv. save. Hell, believing strongly in the Emperor gives you that, not to forget about going real fast on a bike.


Perhaps. I'm making no judgements beyond the idea that the Eldar are technologically more advanced than the Imperium (despite the odd throw away comment that can be lain at the feet of humanocentrism). I really do not care about the wargame insofar as it sometimes has a malefic influence on the background. ;)
This is one point I do disagree on a certain point, which also includes the Tau. Now people always say "oh, the Eldar are to techy", but I feel "no, they're not super tech, more like pretty techy and magical." I mean, why does technology have to be a direct line. One is here, the other there. The Eldar don't have super tech stuff like basic infantry plasma rifles, gauss flayers or even living metal. They don't need them. They have psychoplastics and psychic powers. They have what they need and on what they're good with, not what's super cool.

The Tau lack in psychic things, so naturally they have to have better physical tech to survive, but the Eldar don't need that level of tech when they have the ability to use psychic powers in conjunction with tech. It's little like in one story where the Imperium uses a psycher and psychicly enchanted bolt to track Necrons down to their tomb and not some fancy tracking device. The Tau propably would have used one and they propably would have had better transmitter and such, but the Imperium doesn't need one as they had psychers. You understand my point?


LOL. Then here's one for you: Kage is right. (Just kidding.) <grin>
"If you believe everything you read, better not read."
-Japanese proverb.


There is no spoon? LOL. That's not a route that I would go down, but whatever twiddles your biscuit!
No, not like that. More on the Ork level of "I believes that I can lift this 1,376 tons (is that metric, by the way?)."
...
Oh, snap. That's the answer. The Ork believe the Eldar are just pansies with fancy laadidaa tech, and *poof* that's what they are. Oh, how simple.

Kage2020
10-09-2007, 20:41
It takes you long enough to reply, MrBigMr! (Just kidding. I'm just sitting around reading forums and waiting for replies to interesting threads at the moment! ;))


GW has realy gone on up the wazoo on their logic on sales.
You're not going to get an argument on that from me, but at the same time how does one apply your comments to the Goto-bashing? Surely it's just an extension of the same premise?


Well, what I've read they went from swords and sorcery straight to Warp cannons, so they must have skipped gun powder on the way.
That's one of the reasons that some, myself included, look with some suspicion onto the Eldar mythological cycles. Even with that said, the 'fluff' originally indicated that the Eldar never did anything suddenly. Heck, even humans rarely do that... at least in the real world. ;)


I still refuse to believe it's simple game mechanics that makes Eldar things so crappy even if Wraithbone should be so tough.
Not game mechanics, but Wargame Balance. One can imagine you can justify using this super-powered wraithbone in a fractional way so that they can still have the same, rough protection of normal (Imperial) materials. Thus, if it was four times more protective than adamantium then, obviously, the Eldar always use one quarter the amount of armour than the Imperium! :D


So why is it that Eldar tanks are AV12 while Tau ones, which I believe don't even have adamantium, are AV13 at best? [
I'm afraid that you're bringing this down to the wargame, which doesn't make the greatest sense of the best of times. Further, my knowledge of the specifics of that are fairly minor. Ergo, I'm left with Wargame Balance and the Thematic Army. Perhaps the Tau are more "tank-y" than the Eldar? The whole idea of "distant death" than "martial art-y disciplines" thing?


And I doubt the Imperium has enough of that stuff to make it into space ships...
Of course not. They make prows out of it, so they can 'ram' other ships.


so why does an Eldar battleship, the big big ships made from the super Wraithbone have a worse armor save than a crappy Imperial escort.
Thematic Army. Light armour and more manoueverable.


And like I said, terminator armor = some plates of adamantium and 2+ save, Wraithlord made from Wraithbone, the stuff as good, if not better than adamantium = 3+ save.
Once again, does this illustrate the failure of wraithbone, or that wraithlord's cannot be ultimately powerful for matters of Balance? I guess it comes down to the question of whether you believe a modern army would be outclassed by similar numbers in an army from, same, the early 19th century?


Somewhere down the line the thing just doesn't add up to me.
Amen. That's why I go down the complex RPG route rather than the wargame route, and also why I'm not overtly excited about Dark Heresy (as much as Inquisitor) but there we go.


Flexible materials wouldn't make for a good chamber/barrel. It has to be sturdy and strong, able to hold back the pressure rather than cooping with it, giving away.
Much like the ability to stop a damaging attack? I would presume that the implication of the quote from the 'fluff' is that it is dynamically flexible, insofar as that means it can be shaped on the 'fly' (post-production) rather than having to be reforged.


Yeah, when something is crappy it's about balance, but something is über strong it's fluffy.
Actually, no. With that said the Eldar are technologically more advanced than the Imperium. To be fair, I really don't see a problem with them having access to "superior" materials. After all, is there a problem in the assumption that a modern day soldier has access to more superior technology than their colleague in the 19th century? Or the 12th century?


Don't Warlocks have Rune Armor today too? And so what if it has an Inv. save. Hell, believing strongly in the Emperor gives you that, not to forget about going real fast on a bike.
I knew that it was a mistake to bring up a wargame rule. Suffice to say that I return to my original stance about the wargame rules and statistics -- nigh on useless. ;)


The Eldar don't have super tech stuff like basic infantry plasma rifles, gauss flayers or even living metal.
Actually, they do have a variation on living metal -- it's called wraithbone. As to the rest? I'm laying that down to the wargame once again. Of course, you could reasonably argue that if you discard the wargame too much then are you really talking about 40k? Again, it is a reasonable argument. I just don't buy it, but there we go.


They don't need them. They have psychoplastics and psychic powers. They have what they need and on what they're good with, not what's super cool.
So you're basically on board with the Eldar = elves = magic stuff approach? Fair enough, but I don't buy it.


You understand my point?
Well, it's not hard. I just don't agree with it.


"If you believe everything you read, better not read."
-Japanese proverb.
I was being tongue-in-cheek and playful, since I presumed that you were not trying to insult. With that in mind, cool quote, beyond the fact that it gets back into the idea of questioning once more.


No, not like that. More on the Ork level of "I believes that I can lift this 1,376 tons (is that metric, by the way?)."
That is "There is no spoon." Yoda has another quote for it.


Oh, snap. That's the answer. The Ork believe the Eldar are just pansies with fancy laadidaa tech, and *poof* that's what they are. Oh, how simple.
And the really simplistic answer is that Eldar are "more psychic" and can do the same in reverse. Oh the joys of silliness.

Kage

Bregalad
10-09-2007, 22:43
Whatever the physics of bolters and wraithbone are, it is not exactly relevant for the topic of this thread.

If you buy a Space marine novel, you want some tough but heroic presentation of Space Marines doing their job and finally succeeding.

If you buy an Eldar novel, you want something similar for your favorite race, but instead only get one badly researched Slaanesh perverted novel after the other, watching your heroes getting butchered by the dozens, tortured, mutilated and presented as incompetent, hysterical idiots and born victims. Don't you EVER try to identify with your favorite Eldar character in those novels, or you get humiliated to the bone and your face rubbed in the dirt.

I can't think of any BL philosophy that dictates that you can't write a simple heroic Eldar novel that pleases most Eldar players. Half of Blizzard's WoW novels feature prominent Nightelf characters, why can't BL do something like that?

elvinltl
11-09-2007, 09:34
Ya, you buy a book because you want to read some glorious stuff about Eldar. Then the Author defames Eldar with all kinds of horrific losses and shame. =.=

It's like buying the Harry Potter book and finding out how Harry died a horrible death in the end being tortured and raped to death by Lord Voldermort...

stormblade
11-09-2007, 09:47
It's like buying the Harry Potter book and finding out how Harry died a horrible death in the end being tortured and raped to death by Lord Voldermort...

- Now that would be a Harry Potter book that would appeal to me:evilgrin:

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 10:09
3rd. Ed. Eldar Codex p.13 2nd column, last paragraph:

"...wraithbone: an immensely resilient substance, more difficult to damage than adamantium, and far more flexible."

The Eldar materials technology is superior however because the Eldar value mobility above armor, this materials technology is used to maintain the vaunted Eldar mobility rather than try to create big immovable hulks of armor. The Eldar appear to prize mobility, firepower, and then armor in that order of priority.

Consider the earlier mentioned Eldar battleship from BFG. It packs comparable battleship firepower to standard "current" Imperial battleship, while capable of moving up to 2.5x as fast. To give that some context, the Imperium's fast Cobra destroyers are still outpaced by an Eldar battleship.

Tanith Ghost
11-09-2007, 10:23
And at the same time, the Eldar battleship in question would also last not a third as long in a firefight with it's Imperial counterpart. Hence their tendancy to flee when confronted in force.

Hellebore
11-09-2007, 10:32
And at the same time, the Eldar battleship in question would also last not a third as long in a firefight with it's Imperial counterpart. Hence their tendancy to flee when confronted in force.

Do you play or have you read any BFG stuff?

The eldar can most certainly take on imperial battleships and win. Their armour isn't very high, but it is virtually impossible to hit them in the first place, and their weaponry is MUCH more advanced than the imperials. A single squadron of escorts can take down a battleship easily, pulsars are nasty.

Hellebore

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 12:38
Indeed. Someone needs to learn more about BFG before making uninformed comments about the forces involved.

In the hands of a player who knows how to use them and maneuver them, the Eldar can score crushing victories because they can maneuver into enemy blind spots. Yes they are fragile but then that is why they don't just fly straight at the enemy's guns. As with any race or fleet in 40K, one uses them to utilize their strengths and not to confront the enemy on their strengths and one's own weaknesses. That is why the Eldar fleet is not a beginner's fleet. Improperly used they crumple but likewise, facing a skilled Eldar player can be frustrating precisely because they know how to run rings around the slower lumbering Imperial and Chaos ships while smashing the targets of opportunity.

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 13:29
Whatever the physics of bolters and wraithbone are, it is not exactly relevant for the topic of this thread.
Of course, you are correct, Bregalad. My responses above were merely in regard to the assumption that because they don't have them in their army lists that the Eldar are incapable of producing bolt guns.


If you buy an Eldar novel, you want something similar for your favorite race...
Actually, the last thing that I would personally want is an Eldar novel where Space Marines are dropping like chaff under the power swords of the Howling Banshees - or whatever - just because it happens to be a novel about the Eldar. Indeed, I would personally prefer that the narrative is used to "plausibly" give a reason why one wins over the other. If I saw Guardians fighting against Imperial Guard, I really would need a reason why the Guardians were losing (over-whelming odds, strategically poor positioning, or whatever), regardless of whether it was a novel from the perspective of the Eldar Guardians or the Imperial Guard.


...watching your heroes getting butchered by the dozens...
Well, on that you do have a point, though on my behalf I don't mind "my heroes" being butchered by the dozens if it serves a narrative purpose. In this kind of cinematic writing, if a hero dies it must be for a reason, which is where I would agree with you. On the other hand, I have a hazy memory of "Karabennian" doing that, though obviously realise that you're going to take the "butchered dozens" as more representative.


Don't you EVER try to identify with your favorite Eldar character in those novels...
These are BL novels that we're talking about. Lofty ideals of literature like empathising with the characters are the last of my expectations for what seems to be - and which others have argued - to be primarily pulp fantasy novels.


It's like buying the Harry Potter book and finding out how Harry died a horrible death in the end being tortured and raped to death by Lord Voldermort...
LOL. To honest, I really wouldn't have minded seeing that. Well, not specifically what you mention, but something less "peaches and light" than was represented in the seventh novel. (Oh, just in case, I only read the sixth and seventh novels after seeing the first through fifth films. I know that Potter purists will say that I've missed out on so much, but I really don't see that. [And I'm sure that the purists might argue that I only take that stance because I don't know any better. Fair enough.])


The Eldar materials technology is superior however because the Eldar value mobility above armor, this materials technology is used to maintain the vaunted Eldar mobility rather than try to create big immovable hulks of armor.
Indeed, the common argument and, to be fair, there's little that you can do to gainsay it. The only real question is how advanced the materials are and the relative protection offered per unit mass. One cannot help but question the assumption that if Eldar materials are, say, four times more protective than the advanced materials of the Imperium, that they basically use a quarter (or less) of armour.

Anyway, I know that's what GW says, but that doesn't mean you cannot question the assumptions when it seems to tie into the theme of the army in question. (Eldar/elf armies have generally always been after mobility, firepower and then armour, though I only have hazy memories of the wargame statistics for WFB and the earlier editions of 40k.)

So, you are of course right, but at the same time... Grain of salt? Maybe?

Kage

MrBigMr
11-09-2007, 17:23
It takes you long enough to reply, MrBigMr! (Just kidding. I'm just sitting around reading forums and waiting for replies to interesting threads at the moment! ;))
Some of us have a job and need to sleep.


You're not going to get an argument on that from me, but at the same time how does one apply your comments to the Goto-bashing? Surely it's just an extension of the same premise?
Bregalad answered that already. Other than that I guess nothing, just popped into my head after reading the quotes he had posted. No one seems to care how nasty the text goes on bashing things into bits. I'm more interested on other areas of 40K than pure combat and plotting for combat.


That's one of the reasons that some, myself included, look with some suspicion onto the Eldar mythological cycles. Even with that said, the 'fluff' originally indicated that the Eldar never did anything suddenly. Heck, even humans rarely do that... at least in the real world. ;)
Well, they do have solid projectile weapons and 'basic' laser weapons, but the Old Ones made them to battle the Necrons and back then they had swords and spears (at least by fluff). The Necrons just slaughtered them until Vaul made Wraithguard/lords(?) with Warp weapons to hold the line.

But they very well could have developed new stuff after the War in Heaven, but seeing how they had plenty of tech already, I don't see why they would have gone for something as simple as a chemically propelled firearm. A little like how in Stargate the Asgard would have never thought about using solid slug gun powder weapons that worked against the replicating machines far better than the Asgard energy weapons.

Does it suddenly make the Eldar somehow backwards if they don't know how to make a bolter or gun powder? Am I an idiot (don't answer that) if I don't know how to forge a sword or make a bow? I don't need them, never have. Why would I?


Not game mechanics, but Wargame Balance. One can imagine you can justify using this super-powered wraithbone in a fractional way so that they can still have the same, rough protection of normal (Imperial) materials. Thus, if it was four times more protective than adamantium then, obviously, the Eldar always use one quarter the amount of armour than the Imperium! :D
That is one, but taken that they're a dying race and realy don't care about getting killed, one would assume them to work more on that protection.


Of course not. They make prows out of it, so they can 'ram' other ships.
And the prow is even stronger. Where all the 6+ armor Eldar ships? Hell, I can understand the need for less armor due to their holo-fields and all that, but somehow a ship made from material stronger than adamantium should be more durable than a ship made from materials weaker than adamantium.
Somehow it just doesn't add up to me. GW propably wanted the Eldar to keep as the best, brightest and most bisexual, but somehow the image and actual representation failed to match up.
"Oh, the Eldar have the best of everything. Super duper 5+ armor save, advanced 12" range and massive hulls of AV12. Ph34r m3, puny Monkeigh!"
But hell, I'm a Guard player, I have nothing good. On some level it's a bit of poetic justice or something. For once we're not that crappy.


Thematic Army. Light armour and more manoueverable.
It's a battleship, you know. Those things aren't manoueverable. I do admit that with holo-fields Eldar escorts are the most terrifying thing, but the only time I've realy kicked the crap out of my friend in BFG was when he used a proxy Void Stalker battleship.


Once again, does this illustrate the failure of wraithbone, or that wraithlord's cannot be ultimately powerful for matters of Balance?
Terminators can be because they're Imperial and rock donkey balls. They're fluffy, wraithguard is just balanced. I wouldn't mind for the Eldar to have some 2+ save units, they already have 3+ saved on many units. Give them some Eldarnators armors. Like I care, I'll lose games even if the Wraithguard didn't have any armor.


I guess it comes down to the question of whether you believe a modern army would be outclassed by similar numbers in an army from, same, the early 19th century?
Depends on the loadout and form of battle.


Amen. That's why I go down the complex RPG route rather than the wargame route, and also why I'm not overtly excited about Dark Heresy (as much as Inquisitor) but there we go.
Well, I'm not big on RPGs. I'd rather larp. Hell, 40K is so much more fun when you're in it.


Much like the ability to stop a damaging attack? I would presume that the implication of the quote from the 'fluff' is that it is dynamically flexible, insofar as that means it can be shaped on the 'fly' (post-production) rather than having to be reforged.
Who knows, not all metals are suitable for weapons, so maybe not all psychopastics work for everything. Armor suits seem to be far more bendy, giving away (like kevlar) rather than stopping the actual attack (some steel plate).


Actually, they do have a variation on living metal -- it's called wraithbone.
Well, living metal still kicks Wraithbone.


As to the rest? I'm laying that down to the wargame once again. Of course, you could reasonably argue that if you discard the wargame too much then are you really talking about 40k? Again, it is a reasonable argument. I just don't buy it, but there we go.
Then why isn't there anything about these freaky Eldar techs even in the background? Dear god, could it be some race has better technological knowledge than the Eldar? Oh, noes!


So you're basically on board with the Eldar = elves = magic stuff approach? Fair enough, but I don't buy it.
No, I hate magic. It's the easies way to explain stuff that you can't.
"How is that possible?"
"Magic."
But what I mean is that the Eldar are all about psychic powers, the magic of 40K. Hell, even their guns are fired by their minds and psychoplastics are shaped and forged by psychic agitation and so forth. So what's so wrong about my statement?


I can't think of any BL philosophy that dictates that you can't write a simple heroic Eldar novel that pleases most Eldar players. Half of Blizzard's WoW novels feature prominent Nightelf characters, why can't BL do something like that?
What's that old saying? Oh, yeah, "They're aliens." Elves are just elves, but the space elv... Eldar are aliens. They have alien minds, no one human can understand them. They're mysterious and all that crap.


It's like buying the Harry Potter book and finding out how Harry died a horrible death in the end being tortured and raped to death by Lord Voldermort...
I know a guy who would realy love that book.


The eldar can most certainly take on imperial battleships and win. Their armour isn't very high, but it is virtually impossible to hit them in the first place, and their weaponry is MUCH more advanced than the imperials. A single squadron of escorts can take down a battleship easily, pulsars are nasty.
Yes, but that's why Chaos is so much better against them. Those ships pack plenty of weapon batteries that work best against holo-fields, they're also pretty fast and many ships have almost twice the range of Eldar ships. Only Eldar ship with over 30cm range is the Void Stalker.

But Eldar always tend to start loosing after prolonged engagement in BFG, so they work far better on a hit and run tactic than saying and fighting to the end.


That is why the Eldar fleet is not a beginner's fleet. Improperly used they crumple but likewise, facing a skilled Eldar player can be frustrating precisely because they know how to run rings around the slower lumbering Imperial and Chaos ships while smashing the targets of opportunity.
Oh, yes they are. Me and my friend got into BFG at the same time, he with Eldar, and he manages to use those things pretty well from the start.
...
Stupid pointy ears...

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 18:22
Forgive me the response, even if it is increasingly off-topic. (On the bright side it's not just Goto-bashing. :D)


Some of us have a job and need to sleep.
LOL. Some of us also have a job, but are on an extended holiday. ;)


I'm more interested on other areas of 40K than pure combat and plotting for combat.
Again, not going to get an argument from me.


Well, they do have solid projectile weapons and 'basic' laser weapons, but the Old Ones made them to battle the Necrons and back then they had swords and spears (at least by fluff).
Fair enough, if you want to tie everything that is Eldar to a war that is canonically - again, insofar as that has any meaning beyond "GW published stuff" - tens of millions of years in the past and disallow any of their own cultural or technological evolution?

I'm based here, though. I like my Eldar to have a bit more independence. After all, they were originally described as going beyond the technology of the Old Slann/Ones. Admittedly that could just mean "psychic engineering," but this would just reinforce the "Elves use magic" approach. If mythic future fantasy is your flavour of game, though, than that's cool... I still prefer that 'sci-fi' approach, which is why I see them as straddling the the two approaches.

(That and if you take the War in Heaven at face value, the Eldar were given the 'technology' and did not understand it. This is just a bit too much of a carbon copy of the Adeptus Mechanicus for a racial background that sometimes already borders on using a lot of the similar themes.)


A little like how in Stargate the Asgard would have never thought about using solid slug gun powder weapons that worked against the replicating machines far better than the Asgard energy weapons.
While I do not preclude that there may be racial blindspots, one can also not help but question the nature of the "deus ex machina" in that analogy. It would have been hard for humans to "save the day" if the replicating machines were not vulnerable...


Does it suddenly make the Eldar somehow backwards if they don't know how to make a bolter or gun powder? Am I an idiot (don't answer that) if I don't know how to forge a sword or make a bow? I don't need them, never have. Why would I?
To be fair, I have never been talking about an individual Eldar, in which case the above would most definitely apply.


That is one, but taken that they're a dying race and realy don't care about getting killed, one would assume them to work more on that protection.
Well, that is certainly a different approach. I'm reminded of the comical perception of lemmings for some reason. ;)


And the prow is even stronger. Where all the 6+ armor Eldar ships? Hell, I can understand the need for less armor due to their holo-fields and all that, but somehow a ship made from material stronger than adamantium should be more durable than a ship made from materials weaker than adamantium.
Again, please note the theme of "mobile, lighty armoured by rapidly moving."


"Oh, the Eldar have the best of everything. Super duper 5+ armor save, advanced 12" range and massive hulls of AV12. Ph34r m3, puny Monkeigh!"
But hell, I'm a Guard player, I have nothing good. On some level it's a bit of poetic justice or something. For once we're not that crappy.
I'm afraid that I cannot really contribute to the wargamer discussion. It's all fairly meaningless to me.


It's a battleship, you know. Those things aren't manoueverable.
Surely it's a matter of scale, MrBigMr? The implicit statement is "more manoueverable than something of equivalent size," not a landspeeder or what-not.


Terminators can be because they're Imperial and rock donkey balls. They're fluffy, wraithguard is just balanced.
Ah, of course.


Depends on the loadout and form of battle.
Part of the point, MrBigMr. Part of the point.


Well, I'm not big on RPGs. I'd rather larp. Hell, 40K is so much more fun when you're in it.
Fair enough. One would imagine that LARP does reinforce the vanilla imagery of the 40k universe.


Well, living metal still kicks Wraithbone.
LOL. How can one offer up a reasonable argument to that?


Then why isn't there anything about these freaky Eldar techs even in the background? Dear god, could it be some race has better technological knowledge than the Eldar? Oh, noes!
And, again, no way to offer up a reasonable argument against that without getting into the dangerous territory of turning discussion into an argument. I'm sadly very tired of those.


So what's so wrong about my statement?
Nothing. It's what you believe. It doesn't mean that it is any more right than an other approach, though. Thus, 40k.


They're mysterious and all that crap.
Indeed... "all that crap." :p

Anyway, in deference to the original poster I shall bow out of this discussion and its inherent wargame focus, with all the bias, favouritism and arguments that it implies (and that I have observed in wargame-focused threads).

Enjoy.

Kage

MrBigMr
11-09-2007, 18:55
Admittedly that could just mean "psychic engineering," but this would just reinforce the "Elves use magic" approach. If mythic future fantasy is your flavour of game, though, than that's cool... I still prefer that 'sci-fi' approach, which is why I see them as straddling the the two approaches.
You mean the "Killer Beam Mk. 3 is 10% stronger than Killer Beam Mk. 2" approach? Too often sci-fi has a direct technological line. One tech is just better than the other, not different. I like 40K because the Warp gives a whole other approach. Rather than one being better than the other, they're just different. Eldar have psychic powers, Tau have tech. Both kick ass.


While I do not preclude that there may be racial blindspots, one can also not help but question the nature of the "deus ex machina" in that analogy. It would have been hard for humans to "save the day" if the replicating machines were not vulnerable...
But those things had evolved to fight races using energy weapons and propably never faced solid slug weapons before. Like if an alien race attacks us and we don't have force shields on out tanks to absorb their energy beams because we've never faced energy beams and for that reason never developed such things.


Part of the point, MrBigMr. Part of the point.
I'm still missing it, but what ever.


Fair enough. One would imagine that LARP does reinforce the vanilla imagery of the 40k universe.
How is that?


LOL. How can one offer up a reasonable argument to that?
I don't know. Living metal can change its shape on the go (C'Tan can alter their appearance), phase, reform (does Wraithguard get back up after getting hit?), etc. Yes, Wraithbone is good material, but I think that comparing it to living metal is like comparing plastic to wood. They're similar on some levels, but also fairly different.


And, again, no way to offer up a reasonable argument against that without getting into the dangerous territory of turning discussion into an argument. I'm sadly very tired of those.
I'm just interested. People always say "Oh, they know this and that" but where does this come from, apart from RT era fanboys? I'm realy interested. Change my view, I'm willing to if they're justified.


Anyway, in deference to the original poster I shall bow out of this discussion and its inherent wargame focus, with all the bias, favouritism and arguments that it implies (and that I have observed in wargame-focused threads).
Yeah, what he said. I think.

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 19:38
I invite you to continue this discussion by PM, MrBigMr...

Kage

MrBigMr
11-09-2007, 20:29
Nah, lets just bash Goto.

EDIT: Oh, but on Eldar in BL books I do have a question about Daemon World. As it involves the end, I'll hide it:
In the end it was stated that the planet the whole thing tales place is the last Eldar maiden world. Now aren't maiden worlds the places where the Exodites live even today, so how can that place, inside the maelstrom, be the last of them?

The pestilent 1
11-09-2007, 20:49
3rd. Ed. Eldar Codex p.13 2nd column, last paragraph:

"...wraithbone: an immensely resilient substance, more difficult to damage than adamantium, and far more flexible."

The Eldar materials technology is superior however because the Eldar value mobility above armor, this materials technology is used to maintain the vaunted Eldar mobility rather than try to create big immovable hulks of armor. The Eldar appear to prize mobility, firepower, and then armor in that order of priority.

Consider the earlier mentioned Eldar battleship from BFG. It packs comparable battleship firepower to standard "current" Imperial battleship, while capable of moving up to 2.5x as fast. To give that some context, the Imperium's fast Cobra destroyers are still outpaced by an Eldar battleship.

Said battleships in BFG are made of Bacofoil, and not Wraithbone.

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 21:38
Incorrect. Check the official BFG references. They are indeed made of wraithbone. Read the above posts if you have trouble comprehending the Eldar design philosophy and how a stronger material unit for unit doesn't necessarily mean stronger effective armor in game terms.

Bregalad
11-09-2007, 21:57
Nah, lets just bash Goto.

EDIT: Oh, but on Eldar in BL books I do have a question about Daemon World. As it involves the end, I'll hide it:

Seems like one of those "rare" moments when the author had no idea of the Eldar background and did not care to read the short paragraph in the Codex on maiden worlds. Not all maiden worlds are inhabited, and even then not always by Exodites, but have a look at page 7 of the Eldar Codex for more details.

P.S.: Would be nice if we could get back to topic instead of continuing this thread highjacking.

SV_Harlequin
11-09-2007, 22:03
What was the topic?

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 22:56
Veiled Goto-bashing, SV_Harlequin.

Kage

MrBigMr
12-09-2007, 04:59
P.S.: Would be nice if we could get back to topic instead of continuing this thread highjacking.
I thought I was. What's so wrong with my question?
It's about Eldar, check.
A BL book, check.
Doesn't follow the fluff, check.
Totally on the topic. Or is it because it's not a Goto book and doesn't include slaughter? There's Eldar skulls in it. That's pretty funky, right?

Lastie
12-09-2007, 07:50
Totally on the topic. Or is it because it's not a Goto book and doesn't include slaughter? There's Eldar skulls in it. That's pretty funky, right?

Skulls are always funky. This is 40K; where the average street sign has at least five skulls for every letter.

The main problem with Eldar in current Black Library fiction seems to suffer from two issues:

a) The author hasn't read up on his Eldar fluff (such as the Daemon World example) and makes rather obvious errors when referring to them. This is not forgiveable, as the BL supposedly has ways of ensuring fluff-accuracy :rolleyes:.

b) The author has probably read up on Eldar fluff (gets the names right at least), but portrays them in a manner akin to an eight-year old's vision of 'Evil Space Elves'. Most of the time this lacks the grace and grandeur described by the fluff, as it seems the author is confusing himself with the Corsairs and Kabalites when he talks about Craftworld Eldar.

c) (OK, I said two problems, but this needs to be addressed also) There's a distinct lack of Exodites. We need more Exodites, if only to have more dinosaurs in 40K. :p

Kage2020
12-09-2007, 12:22
For a Devil's Advocate post...


The author hasn't read up on his Eldar fluff (such as the Daemon World example) and makes rather obvious errors when referring to them. This is not forgiveable, as the BL supposedly has ways of ensuring fluff-accuracy :rolleyes:.
The sycophantic, and somewhat churlish, argument would be that you're proposing that you know the 'fluff' better than GW. Apparently that is arrogance of the highest regard. :P (Sorry, having a dig at a post elsewhere, which is entirely childish of me!) With that said, the stance does have some merit and is commonly cited under the argument that, "Well, GW owns the material so they can do with it what they like. If you don't like it, then sling yer 'ook!" In short, GW has the copyright, writes the material and can do what they want, so who are you to tell them anything about the game or, even, complain about how they write it? (To bring it sort of back to the original point as well.)

Of course, I don't believe that. While many see GW as loaning us their universe, which they retain complete "ownership" over (I'm not talking in a legal sense, since they do retain complete ownership) and anything that you, the mere fan, write is fairly pointless. After all, as soon as GW releases this or that codex (or rewrites it), or releases that long-promised artbook (or whatever), chances are that your work is going to be completely invalidated. So, the argument might go, what's the point of writing it in the first place? Is this a cry of "Listen to me!"? No, not really. More, a "What about us?".

For me, though? We give GW our money (some of us more than others) to allow them to continue to write inspiring material on the 40k universe, entrusting that they will do so "responsibly" within certain constraints. They then give this universe to us, and this sometimes inspires the fans to write material that while not official isn't irrelevant, even if it is a product of personal interpretations. Of course, the company isn't going to see that way because they have the copyrights and the above might smack of copyleft, but there we go. That's just the way I see it and why I don't automatically accept everything that GW presents merely because some geezer in Nottingham has written it or because of statements about, "Well, if you change it too much are you even playing what we call 40k?" (The obvious answer response to this is, "Are you even writing a 40k universe that got me interested in it anymore?")

Aye, probably controversial, but there we go.


The author has probably read up on Eldar fluff (gets the names right at least), but portrays them in a manner akin to an eight-year old's vision of 'Evil Space Elves'. Most of the time this lacks the grace and grandeur described by the fluff, as it seems the author is confusing himself with the Corsairs and Kabalites when he talks about Craftworld Eldar.
This, for me, reminds me of two rather interesting quotes from the TV show, Babylon 5. I was going to save this for another thread since it seems central to interpretation of the various alien races, especially when viewed through the lens of GW writings...


Vir Koto: "Londo, the Minbari are very lovely people, interested in culture and art..."

Londo Milari: "Decadent and soft. Probably out to impose their views on everyone else."

Vir Koto: "But their cities are thousands of years old..."

Londo Milari: "The lack of new construction is the surest sign of a faltering economy. This could make them very aggressive."

Vir Koto: "They're a deeply spiritual people, Londo."

Londo Milari: "That you can leave in. It always scares people."


Londo Milari: "No, no. This report is totally inappropriate. You have to do it again."

Vir Koto: "Londo, why? I've spent weeks working on this report. I didn't even sleep back on the flight back from Minbar so that I could over it again. I've checked every single detail myself. It's absolutely accurate..."

Londo Milari: "Yes, Vir. I'm sure it is, and that is the problem. Here you say, 'The Minbari have carefully preservered their cities over the course of centuries.'"

Vir Koto: "That's right, absol..."

Londo Milari: "No, what you should say instead is, 'Their cities are very old, indicating a decaying culture.'"

Vir Koto: "What?"

Londo Milari: "And here. 'The Minbari put great emphasis on art, literature, and music.'"

<Vir nods vigorously, pointing to the report>

Londo Milari: "Say instead, 'They are a decadent people interested only in the pursuit of... of dubious pleasures.' The dubious part is very important. It doesn't mean anything, but it scares people every time. Alright?"

Vir Koto: "Londo. Every time that I make a report, you do this to me."

Londo Milari: "Yes, Vir, I'm trying to help you. A report that will be circulated at the royal court needs to be phrased carefully to make sure that they appear less civilised then we are. Keeps the Emperor happy."

Vir Koto: "I thought the purpose of these reports was to provide accurate intelligence?"

Londo Milari. "Vir.... Intelligence has nothing to do with politics. Here, 'They are tolerant of differences amongst other cultures...'"

Vir Koto <nodding his head emphatically>: "Yes..."

Londo Milari: "...No, make that, 'They have no well-defined sense of morality.' They'll love that back home!"
Thus how I would see the majority of GW material on the Eldar, but there we go.

And, since you mentioned it:


There's a distinct lack of Exodites. We need more Exodites, if only to have more dinosaurs in 40K. :p
I would love to see more Exodites... When they're presented in a way other than a (fictional) physical manifestation of what I tend to call the "Golden Age Doctrine" (ultimately, things were better in the past, whether that is "simpler" or "higher technology" :D ).

Kage

LexxBomb
12-09-2007, 13:49
Oooh... Let's play the "Which BL authors should be fired!" game. ;)

Erm, maybe not. :D

Kage

I bow to you.

hey when I first read the appendix to eldar prophecies I was angry but then I thought about the hard work put itno the book and remembered that the appendix was written from a eldar point of view that has been removed from real eldar society and I began to think of the inconcistancies as cool.

Kage2020
12-09-2007, 14:20
Please, no bowing. It reminds me of the first time that I entered a martial arts dojo as a black belt and everyone bowed. I thought that the 'instructor' was behind me, turned around rapidly to bow and nearly clocked my head on the door as it was closing. Dufus didn't realise that it was traditional despite the fact that I'd done it for years previously to other black belts... ;) :rolleyes:

Anyway, I just think that it is useful to put things in context. Everyone seems so riled at their favourite race being denegrated - and somehow this extends to them, unlike "those pesky, spoiled Marine players" ;) - that somehow the context is missed. Remembering, of course, that I'm an Eldarphile and the Eldar are my favourite race.

While reading Eldar Prophecy it rapidly became apparent, to me at least, that I was not readind about my favourite race (the Craftworld Eldar). They weren't Dark Eldar, nor were they (somewhat obviously) Exodites. Nor even Chaos Eldar. Rather, they were some bastardised exception to the rule and, after all, most of what BL produces seems to be exceptional to the rule. After all, the rule is boring, or so it is commonly thought. So, Kaelor becomes a place where the Path did not truly take a hold -- where they are lost in some horrid interstitial state.

Now, with that said I didn't overtly enjoy the book and its representation of Eldar in general, but personally I'm not surprised. I haven't really enjoyed a representation of the Eldar that has come out of BL (most especially Xenology! ;)), though I have got the odd interesting tid-bit out of them. (Whether it was the cities in Farseer, the Exarch in Shadow Point, or whatever. Nothing really springs to mind from Xenology, just so you know! <grin> )

Kage

MrBigMr
12-09-2007, 14:36
There's a distinct lack of Exodites. We need more Exodites, if only to have more dinosaurs in 40K. :p
Might not help much, but the second novel I'm writing (in sig under Black Hole Gun) starts off from an Exodite planet. Most of the stuff I just made in my mind from the scraps of info I've found around the net and few codexes.

It realy sucks GW doesn't give more info on non-combat aspect of 40K. Imperium is pretty well covered, but I would realy love to read on what life is like for Eldar and Tau outside of the Fire Caste and Aspect Warriors. To me it would realy help to formulate stuff. Not just have that "oh, they do this and that" but to know why? What motivates them on the inside. That's what helps me on so many aspects.

Now I'm just forced to make my own analysis of them and quite often it's wrong. Which is why I usually stick more or less to the stereotypical image and only individuals break the norm because they're individuals and don't represent the Eldar or Tau as a whole.

Oh, GW, expand my small mind.

Emperor's Grace
12-09-2007, 15:34
But those things had evolved to fight races using energy weapons and propably never faced solid slug weapons before. Like if an alien race attacks us and we don't have force shields on out tanks to absorb their energy beams because we've never faced energy beams and for that reason never developed such things.

Isn't this basically the SG-1/Stargate (and ewoks? - amongst others) approach?

A standard sort of SF idea to allow the "weaker" humans/tech to prevail over aliens with higher tech mastery?

I can't believe that anyone would design forcefields/armor to block lasers and forget that someone can throw a rock at them.



Originally Posted by Babylon 5 <forgotten episode at moment>

BTW I think it's "Point of No Return"

Lastie
12-09-2007, 20:33
The sycophantic, and somewhat churlish, argument would be that you're proposing that you know the 'fluff' better than GW.

I realise I cut that quote short, so I don't want Kage to think I'm just picking on this bit. :p However, it does raise an interesting point: we all have different interpretations of the 40K background. For most of us these interpretations are largely identical, yet there can exist subtle differences that lead to disputes such as this thread. Who's right? Well, to be honest no one is, as GW themselves have altered the 'canon' background fiction multiple times throughout the four editions of the game, and sometimes within the same edition, and the interesting contradictions present in BL novels are well documented (elsewhere). So if GW cannot decide for themselves a 'definitive', or 'canon' background who does know the fluff better?

Best answer: we all do. We all have our own little 40K within us, shaped to our own imaginations when we read the Codices and background books. We just have to learn to compromise when we meet others with different 40K's to our own. I'm still learning.



That's just the way I see it and why I don't automatically accept everything that GW presents merely because some geezer in Nottingham has written it or because of statements about, "Well, if you change it too much are you even playing what we call 40k?" (The obvious answer response to this is, "Are you even writing a 40k universe that got me interested in it anymore?")

Amen to that. I'm not too fond of the recent Horus Heresy novels, mainly because the general attitude of the Imperium seems too much like the Federation of Planets (only somewhat more xenophobic) for my tastes. I'd like to leave respect for science and reason in the domain of Star Trek, and let insanity reign supreme in the 40K universe I grew to love seven years ago when I first opened the 3rd Ed rulebook.

Oh, and if I see a Space Marines use modern slang in his speech again ...



hey when I first read the appendix to eldar prophecies I was angry but then I thought about the hard work put itno the book and remembered that the appendix was written from a eldar point of view that has been removed from real eldar society and I began to think of the inconcistancies as cool.

I've always loved the idea that all of 40K as we know it is based on historical reports, often written by the winners (and we all know how history tends to warp when written by the biased). As most Codices seem to read as if written by an Imperial, it's natural that most of what we think we know about alien species is actually what the Imperium thinks it knows. The truth, in other words, is still out there for our imagination.


Might not help much, but the second novel I'm writing (in sig under Black Hole Gun) starts off from an Exodite planet. Most of the stuff I just made in my mind from the scraps of info I've found around the net and few codexes.

That sounds interesting, and I'd love to read it when you're finished!



It realy sucks GW doesn't give more info on non-combat aspect of 40K. Imperium is pretty well covered, but I would realy love to read on what life is like for Eldar and Tau outside of the Fire Caste and Aspect Warriors.

I've always been more interested in what happens off the battlefields of the 41st millennium than what happens on it, which is why most of the current BL books annoy me; reading more like glorified battle reports than true narrative stories. Is it strange to want to know what other Paths exist for the Eldar than the ones described in the Codex (such as painters, architects, songwriters, trash can cleaners, etc.).



I can't believe that anyone would design forcefields/armor to block lasers and forget that someone can throw a rock at them.

Perhaps rocks haven't been thrown at them for so long they've forgotten rocks could be thrown at them. :p

Tanith Ghost
12-09-2007, 21:20
Do you play or have you read any BFG stuff?

The eldar can most certainly take on imperial battleships and win. Their armour isn't very high, but it is virtually impossible to hit them in the first place, and their weaponry is MUCH more advanced than the imperials. A single squadron of escorts can take down a battleship easily, pulsars are nasty.

Hellebore

Actualy yes. I run an Imperial cruiser squadron(Ironicly the retribution class BB
stays home most games). I've found that while I do get hurt badly by eldar weapons (pulsar related flashbacks :eek: ) , I will win if I can just land a hit and do some damage.

You're dead on the money with all points. Getting that damaging hit is like pulling teeth. I personaly cope with mmy disadvantages by keeping the formation tight, the escorts out wide on the flanks, and at least three fighter groups handy to stop ordanance.

Still, my original point was in a one on one fight I'll put mony on the Retribution over the Void Stalker every time.:chrome:

MrBigMr
12-09-2007, 21:53
That sounds interesting, and I'd love to read it when you're finished!
10 parts of it are already up, and as it's a sequel to the other novel, Slayers of Sorrow, you might want to check it out as well. Both have Eldar in it, although I admit the first one doesn't paint all that pretty picture of them. But I don't think outcasts and pirates perform as well as craftworlders.
All in mah sig.


I've always been more interested in what happens off the battlefields of the 41st millennium than what happens on it, which is why most of the current BL books annoy me; reading more like glorified battle reports than true narrative stories. Is it strange to want to know what other Paths exist for the Eldar than the ones described in the Codex (such as painters, architects, songwriters, trash can cleaners, etc.).
Same here. I generally don't like action books, as I'm not a fast reader and it slows the pace down significantly. Fast action is better on screen. Books give more room for thoughts and such.


Perhaps rocks haven't been thrown at them for so long they've forgotten rocks could be thrown at them. :p
Just so all know, it was Emperor's Grace who said it, not me.
But I have an answer for it as well: Kevlar vests. Bulletproof kevlar vest to be accurate. They stop bullets you see, they're designed for it, but did you know you can stick a knife or even a screwdriver through it? Imagine that, a thing that can stop a bullet but not a screwdriver.

True story, saw it in a document once.

Why? Because a bullet and a screwdriver work differently. Then the bullet hits, the kevlar reacts to it, but a screwdriver comes far slower and the material doesn't get to react, so it passes through it.

But the whole point of me saying that is that not all races might have not developed gun powder operated solid slug weapons (and if they have, they might have forgotten them during the last 60 000 000 years. Even the Eldar don't remember everything, even if the Black Library holds the tome of "Ultimate Knowledge on Chemical Propellants and Solid Munition Weapons"), some might have passed it. And once you have a lasblaster, why would you bother with a bolter? It's big, noisy, kicks like a mule and not very pretty either.

Idaan
13-09-2007, 12:23
Not wanting to devolve into a rant once again, but only to point out:

THE ELDAR SPACECRAFT ISN'T AND NEVER WAS MADE OF WRAITHBONE.

Sorry for the capitalics, but even Eldar fans keep forgetting it. All Eldar material since WD 127 says something similar to this:

In this way the Wraithbone skeleton not only performs the mechanical tasks which a bony skeleton would perform in an animal, but also the role of the nervous system and blood stream too.
The Wraithbone core of a spacecraft is surrounded by a structure which is literally grown into the required shapes.
Only Wraithlords and Wraithguard are made entirely of Wraithbone, hence their Toughness.
And it is a fact that it is harder than adamantium.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 15:23
So if GW cannot decide for themselves a 'definitive', or 'canon' background who does know the fluff better?
You weren't cutting me short, Lastie. The point that you make is, ultimately the one that I went on to make, or at least that I've made numerous times before. However, not everyone takes that approach.


Is it strange to want to know what other Paths exist for the Eldar than the ones described in the Codex (such as painters, architects, songwriters, trash can cleaners, etc.).
Not for me, but I'm quirky like that. :D


Perhaps rocks haven't been thrown at them for so long they've forgotten rocks could be thrown at them.
Those damn Ewoks get everywhere! :eyebrows:


Even the Eldar don't remember everything, even if the Black Library holds the tome of "Ultimate Knowledge on Chemical Propellants and Solid Munition Weapons")...
Black Library is warp knowledge, MrBigMr. With that said, I think that you're beating the point to death. A lack of use does not imply a lack of knowledge, and nor does a preference to use one weapon over another imply the same. After all, just because we use modern weaponry doesn't mean that we've forgotten how to produce the older material?

Oh, and bolters do not "kick like mule(s)". That's kind of their 'fluff'.

If you want to believe that the Eldar had no means of storing information efficiently - say, on scrolls if you want to flog the Imperium conformism to death - then cool enough.

Kage

Emperor's Grace
13-09-2007, 18:01
Just so all know, it was Emperor's Grace who said it, not me.
But I have an answer for it as well: Kevlar vests. Bulletproof kevlar vest to be accurate. They stop bullets you see, they're designed for it, but did you know you can stick a knife or even a screwdriver through it? Imagine that, a thing that can stop a bullet but not a screwdriver.

True story, saw it in a document once.

Why? Because a bullet and a screwdriver work differently. Then the bullet hits, the kevlar reacts to it, but a screwdriver comes far slower and the material doesn't get to react, so it passes through it.

But the whole point of me saying that is that not all races might have not developed gun powder operated solid slug weapons (and if they have, they might have forgotten them during the last 60 000 000 years. Even the Eldar don't remember everything, even if the Black Library holds the tome of "Ultimate Knowledge on Chemical Propellants and Solid Munition Weapons"), some might have passed it. And once you have a lasblaster, why would you bother with a bolter? It's big, noisy, kicks like a mule and not very pretty either.

Thank you for the credit :p

Obligatory "Dune" reference: the slow blade penetrates the field

But thats what hard "trauma plates" in the vest are for (amongst other things) and vehicle armor, etc....

Also why Batman (I know, not RL but the tech is) is listed as having "kevlar strike plates" in his suit. Essentially he has a soft flexible layer with strategically placed hard points both to allow bullet shielding but also to take punches and knives.

Also, I must point out that Kevlar is used to make every thing from soft armguards designed specifically to prevent knife (slashing) wounds and helmets that will reduce piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage to car bodies for movie studios.

Using AD+D II damage types (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) here.

BTW, both the bullet and knife are "piercing". I believe the real difference comes in speed and/or the concentration of force. The bullet, though higher velocity, is low mass and "catches" more fibers due to being relatively blunt/spreading. Remember that bullet makers don't want it to pass through the body but to stop when resistance is encountered and transfer kinetic energy in impact. Also keep in mind that sharp and high power rounds do go through bullet proof armor. The knife is lower velocity but higher mass and with a sharp edge that concentrates force onto a very small area and cuts fibers reducing the "net" effect that would trap a bullet.

My point is: It's not that we can't manufacture knife resistant armors. It's that we find the burden to soldier and pocketbook hard to bear. Hard plate costs more and is tougher on heat, weight, and manueverability.

In fact, some of the future soldier projects suggested do contain hard plate armor to stave off both knife and gun. Or better, an armor that functions akin to Eldar mesh (hard scales over gel that hardens on impact but is flexible otherwise).

My second point is: You don't make armor proof against your weapons, you design it to be proof against your enemies weapons... The eldar should be used to the idea of fighting against folks with "primitive" weapons.


A lack of use does not imply a lack of knowledge, and nor does a preference to use one weapon over another imply the same. After all, just because we use modern weaponry doesn't mean that we've forgotten how to produce the older material?

Quite right. And see the ST classic where Kirk makes a primitive cannon to defeat the Gorn. :)



Those damn Ewoks get everywhere!

I couldn't resist the reference. It's always baffled me why they didn't use Kashvyyk (sp?). Wookies rising up against there oppressors with paw and primitive weapons would be one thing ... but teddy bears?

MrBigMr
13-09-2007, 19:03
After all, just because we use modern weaponry doesn't mean that we've forgotten how to produce the older material?
How do we know if we have forgotten something? Both electric batteries and steam engine were devoleped way way back in Babylonia and Greece, and the got forgotten for few thousand years until someone else developed them. Later we found out that "hey, these guys did it too."

I read this book by Andrew Tomas called We Are Not the First. It gave a nice insight on things developed a long time ago and lists various things ancient people discovered or developed and then got lost. Not just inventions, but astronomy and such as well.


Oh, and bolters do not "kick like mule(s)". That's kind of their 'fluff'.
20mm shoulder fired RPG, yes it does. True that the charge is small, only enough to clear the bolt itself from the barrel and cycle the weapon, but it sure as hell has more kick to it than a las or shuriken weapon (which was my point). Even a LAW kicks, and that's a *******' rocket launcher with the gasses shooting out the back.


If you want to believe that the Eldar had no means of storing information efficiently - say, on scrolls if you want to flog the Imperium conformism to death - then cool enough.
Now you're just putting word into my mouth.
What I mean is that YES the Black Library holds everything possible, but NO, NO common Eldar would know it all from top to bottom and use all that knowledge effectively. So just because the Black Library holds the knowledge on Eldar gun powder, doesn't mean some craftworld might even know they've once had gun powder weapons.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 19:45
How do we know if we have forgotten something?
Good example, MrBigMr. In this case I'm going to go with the comment "baby with bathwater" and leave it at that. The problem when fanboys start discussing something, especially when it is based in unbalanced evidence.


20mm shoulder fired RPG, yes it does.
19mm. And there's a difference betwee "kick" and blow-back, I would imagine.


...but it sure as hell has more kick to it than a las or shuriken weapon (which was my point).
Oh, my bad. It was just that "kick like a mule" comment, which is normally employed to imply that the weapon has a significant kick. The relative "kick" between that and a shuriken weapon is, well, debateable. Definitely more than a lasgun, or at least IMO, but confusing terminology to employ.


Now you're just putting word into my mouth.
Actually, it did appear that way, so my apologies even if it was not the intent. To be fair, though, much of the Eldar 'fluff' seems to be a carbon-copy of the Imperial stuff, at least in spirit and intent if not in fact.


What I mean is that YES the Black Library holds everything possible...
Well, just the warp stuff...


Here are the collected tomes, books and codices describing the Eldar studies of the warp. The forbidden lore of the Black Library describes the blandishments, influences, forms, creatures, perils, promises and horrors of Chaos.

...doesn't mean some craftworld might even know they've once had gun powder weapons.
That's one approach but, again, I don't buy into the idea that the Eldar fled without taking the library with them. It's just my opinion, but one I feel reasonably strongly about. That and I really don't need another version of the Age of Strife and the Adeptus Mechanicus for the Eldar, even though that is what is all but required because of the wargame...

Anyway, duel of the fanboys is probably very non-productive.

Kage

Emperor's Grace
13-09-2007, 20:11
How do we know if we have forgotten something? Both electric batteries and steam engine were devoleped way way back in Babylonia and Greece, and the got forgotten for few thousand years until someone else developed them. Later we found out that "hey, these guys did it too."

But even those were only "forgotten" for a few thousand year and then rediscovered. The eldar by that logic should have rediscovered the idea of impact weapons many many times by now. Particularly when confronted by them in war, time and again. Necessity being invention's mother and such.


I read this book by Andrew Tomas called We Are Not the First. It gave a nice insight on things developed a long time ago and lists various things ancient people discovered or developed and then got lost. Not just inventions, but astronomy and such as well.

Pseudoscience? I particularly like the cover on his sequel that shows a UFO as a party hat for the sphinx.

I prefer "Connections" by Burke and "How the Irish Saved Civilization" by Cahill for invention vs. dark ages ideas.

Yes, there are a few primitive examples of certain things but just because something is a battery doesn't mean that they understood it as such. Voltaic piles occur naturally too. If I notice that and build an artificial one from observation, does that mean that I will invent the means to utilize it like a flashlight or do I simply have an interesting toy that I barely understand?

Also please note that we often add our ideas to something much simpler. I remember a program on the Discovery channel where one guy was pointing out that the width of the pyramid side was equal to the circumference of a circle generated by some other method I can't remember (radius = height maybe?). Anyway, he then concluded that they must have known about the Pi ratio and had advanced mathmatics (possibly from Atlantis!). The other guy (a mathemetician) took a wheel and showed that if he marked a place on the wheel and rolled it on the ground from mark to mark the same ratio of measurements occured without a need to understand Pi at all. Notably, the marked rolling wheel is also used to measure distances in surveying, something the Egyptians did know a bit about as they re-established farm borders every year after the Nile flood receded.

Discovery or TLC used to also have a great series on ancient inventions that teamed up an archaeologist with an engineer to try to recreate methods by actually doing them. They showed that Stonehenge was possible with naught but rope, muscle and wood. They even lost their stone on the beaching (same as others are found at the bottom) and so appeared to be making the same errors our ancestors made too. The pyramid one was interesting as well as they showed the the "precision and smoothness" of the stonework was possible even now by the local laborers. I think they used the "dirt ramp" technique, BTW, to raise the blocks. They did note that although possible by ancient method, it would have been a real trick to coordinate the necessary labor and materials (movement and disposal) but the Egyptians had a handle on that too by all accounts.

From a review on Amazon:
"Andrew Tomas presents so many ideas that, if you really take the time to think about it, coincide perfectly with current scientific knowledge. He makes his case, saying that we can't possibly be the first race to have lived on Earth. How else could the pyramids have been built with such perfect precision with their technology, or how could ancient philosophers have known the Earth was a sphere, or that there were planets beyond Saturn?"

From a life history:
"ANDREW TOMAS - Australian UFO pioneer (1906-2001) by Bill Chalker

Andrew Tomas lived in Australia from 1948 to about 1966. His wide interests, particularly in the occult and unusual mysteries came together when he joined Australia's first flying saucer group, Edgar Jarrold's Australian Flying Saucer Bureau (AFSB) formed in 1952. Following a Sydney Morning Herald article on flying saucers and Jarrold's activities, Tomas, an accountant, decided to seek out Jarrold, with a view to joining the group. Jarrold and Tomas discussed for hours the question of life on other planets.

Tomas showed Jarrold a book he had written in China way back in 1935, entitled "The Planetary Doctrine", showing him a passage about "strange shiny objects" in the sky, which facilitated "communication … from planet to planet." Clearly Tomas had been thinking about the question of beings from other worlds long before the modern era began with Kenneth Arnold's sighting in 1947. "

and

"Tomas believed "that a War of Two Worlds is going on and that terrestrial and cosmic forces are arrayed for battle." "Saucers have been known in the East for thousands of years. Their present appearance in mass has been foretold long, long ago. They are only an effect, not the cause, and the cause is the great struggle between the Forces of Good, of Culture, of Enlightenment - and of Evil, of Hate, and Darkness", wrote Tomas in a letter to American researcher Gray Barker in 1956."

So we have a UFO watching, Masonic occultist whose schooling was in accounting.

Yep, not the place that I'd turn for my science.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 20:20
God, I love von Daniken. Every time that I went on a short archaeological excavation through college/university I would always take on of these books. They're hilarious! The arguments are actually quite good if you believe the initial premise.

But there we go.

Kage

MrBigMr
13-09-2007, 21:03
But even those were only "forgotten" for a few thousand year and then rediscovered. The eldar by that logic should have rediscovered the idea of impact weapons many many times by now. Particularly when confronted by them in war, time and again.
Just because they say other races using different weapons doesn't mean they would find a reason to copy that. Can you imagine the Eldar taking tactics and styles from petty alien races? They're far better than anyone else, they should all look up to the Eldar for style and such.


Necessity being invention's mother and such.
Right, that's why a bolter doesn't fit the Eldar style of War as good as a shuriken catapult. They're fast and agile, so a hip fired rapid fire weapon that can be fired on the move is far better than a semi-auto rocket launcher.


Yes, there are a few primitive examples of certain things but just because something is a battery doesn't mean that they understood it as such. Voltaic piles occur naturally too. If I notice that and build an artificial one from observation, does that mean that I will invent the means to utilize it like a flashlight or do I simply have an interesting toy that I barely understand?
Long time ago electricity, tv, phones, etc. were just a toys for people who had nothing better to do. Now we all use them. Even the Greek steam engine was just a fancy thing, but the idea was the same as today. Just because they didn't use it for something amazing doesn't mean they couldn't have used it if they had the need for such things.
Like you said:
Necessity being invention's mother and such.The Greeks didn't have need for a steam engine back then, but in time such innovation became usefull and the idea got developed into a more working order.

For the same reason I have a slight doubt on Eldar gun powder weapons. They got all that pretty tech left over from the War in Heaven, so they might have not had a need to develope some chemical mixture to propell solid slugs as they had gravitational fields and lasers and Warp energy projectors.


Yep, not the place that I'd turn for my science.
Hey, it was the only interesting thing in that army library, so I took it. 24/7 tittymags gets boring after few months. It's not like I didn't take it at an arms length.


Good example, MrBigMr.
What? Could you repeat that into this mic... flower, with your full name, rank and social security number.


The problem when fanboys start discussing something, especially when it is based in unbalanced evidence.
What else can we do? Just take what we have and ignore everything else? Oh, how all my serious army fluff would be interesting.


19mm.
A millimeter here or there. What's the difference to the victim?


And there's a difference betwee "kick" and blow-back, I would imagine.
Both makes the gun move away from the source and if you're holding it, it'll impact you. And if an Eldar has never fired a bolter, he/she'll most likely fumble with it at first. I remember how aching my shoulder was first time at the firing range with my rifle ("this is my rifle, this is my gun / this is for fighting, this is for fun"), but few months later I could fire blanks full auto with one stretched arm.


Oh, my bad. It was just that "kick like a mule" comment, which is normally employed to imply that the weapon has a significant kick. The relative "kick" between that and a shuriken weapon is, well, debateable. Definitely more than a lasgun, or at least IMO, but confusing terminology to employ.
Well, if one can run and fire hundreds of shurikens from the hip with the catapult, but only few ones with the bolters and not even move that rapidly.


That's one approach but, again, I don't buy into the idea that the Eldar fled without taking the library with them.
That brings us down to what they saved. Did they have time and space to take everything possible, or just all they would need, what was worth to be saved and then some. Even Noah couldn't save everything, only 2 of every animal because they could make more animals.


Anyway, duel of the fanboys is probably very non-productive.
I've found this to be more productive than reading BL novels.

Speaking of which, isn't it funny that the company beating on the Eldar is named after an Eldar thing?

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 21:08
What? Could you repeat that into this mic... flower, with your full name, rank and social security number.
My contribution to this thread now ends.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////Kage

Emperor's Grace
13-09-2007, 21:39
Just because they say other races using different weapons doesn't mean they would find a reason to copy that.

It is however an excellent reason to make different armor - which was the point.


Long time ago electricity, tv, phones, etc. were just a toys for people who had nothing better to do.

Not sure long ago = roughly 100 - 200 years (at best) when we were just talking about thousands. And no, they weren't "just toys". They were being studied for practical application the whole time as well.



Like you said:The Greeks didn't have need for a steam engine back then, but in time such innovation became usefull and the idea got developed into a more working order.?

Never said that at all. The Greeks would have had many uses both militarily and civilly for a steam engine. My point was that if they had understood the tech they would have used it.


so they might have not had a need to develope some chemical mixture to propell solid slugs?

Doesn't mean that they wouldn't understand the tech, though.



Even Noah couldn't save everything, only 2 of every animal because they could make more animals.?

Which expains why there are so few non-aquatic plants, now. :rolleyes:


I'll have to end my participation here too as I feel it's leading me toward the verge of trolling now.