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Bortus
29-08-2005, 07:37
Ok, a buddy of mine says that the Beasts of Chaos book says that a Centigor can benifit from the use of an extra weapon but that there is no option to arm a Centigor in this way. Anybody got an idea about this? I don't have the codex and my Army Builder program doesn't give the option for an extra hand weapon either so maybe a typo in the codex? I don't know. Thanks for the help people.

Atrahasis
29-08-2005, 08:14
Ok, a buddy of mine says that the Beasts of Chaos book says that a Centigor can benifit from the use of an extra weapon but that there is no option to arm a Centigor in this way. Anybody got an idea about this? I don't have the codex and my Army Builder program doesn't give the option for an extra hand weapon either so maybe a typo in the codex? I don't know. Thanks for the help people.

By the letter of the rule, a Centigor may use a throwing axe as a second hand weapon for +1 attack.

That's almost certainly not the intent, however.

Sylass
29-08-2005, 09:03
Ooooh, we had that discussion on Portent and I still disagree with what the letter of the rules here is. ;)

Throwing weapons != add. hand weapons.


Q: Can Centigors armed with throwing axes count as having two hand weapons in close combat?
A: No! They are throwing axes.

(-> GW Q&As)

Atrahasis
29-08-2005, 09:05
Ooooh, we had that discussion on Portent and I still disagree with what the letter of the rules here is. ;)

Throwing weapons != add. hand weapons.

There is no such thing as an "additional hand weapon". Additional is an adjective and not a part of a compund noun.

I knew there was a Q&A on iot somewhere, but do you know where? I couldn't see it in the PDF.

Festus
29-08-2005, 09:17
Again...

Additional Hand weapon is qualified in the army list entries for those units which are able to be equipped with one.
This holds true for characters as well as troops.

Only if your army list entry allows you to take an additional handweapon as an option, or you come readily equipped with two handweapons, you may use it.

The Centigors issue arises twofold:
1. Throwing axes can be used as a handweapon (as every mini comes equipped with one - minus Orcs)
2. as not-quite cavalry, Centigors are basically able to use two hand weapons (as opposed to cavalry or mounted models, who cannot) but don't gain the +1 cavalry save modifier, do count as US2 each,...

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
29-08-2005, 10:15
Centigors cannot have additional hand weapons.

The point of the special rule is that the design team is hopefully planning to re-use in future for possible centauric type units, some of which might be able to have additional hand weapons.

Avian
29-08-2005, 11:16
Such as Chaos Dwarf Bull Centaurs, in which case it's good to have a consistent description of the unit type.
Or they might have a variant list where Centigors could have additional hand weapons. In this case you would also benefit from not having to rewrite the rule.

Consistency is good and should not be taken further than the text goes. For example: an Ogre Hunter has the Bull Charge rule, even if he cannot benefit from it.

T10
29-08-2005, 11:24
I agree with Griefbringer.

Centigor can benefit from additional hand weapons, but at the present they simply do not have the option of using them.

They are a bit like High Elf archers who can also use addtional hand weapons but do not have the option of taking them.


-T10

Griefbringer
29-08-2005, 13:59
They are a bit like High Elf archers who can also use addtional hand weapons but do not have the option of taking them.


Or orcs and hand weapon + shield rule - they would benefit from that, if they just could get hold of a hand weapon somewhere!

T10
29-08-2005, 14:20
Or orcs and hand weapon + shield rule - they would benefit from that, if they just could get hold of a hand weapon somewhere!

Indeed!

Now, if there was some way of using both an additional hand weapon and a shield, like maybe ditching the choppa and keep the additional hand weapon! But then the addtional hand weapon would just be a hand weapon again, and for Orcs that's just a choppa.

Hmf. It seems it cannot be done. :)

-T10

Atrahasis
29-08-2005, 17:05
Again...

Additional Hand weapon is qualified in the army list entries for those units which are able to be equipped with one.
This holds true for characters as well as troops.

Some units come with "Two hand weapons". Does this mean they don't get +1 attack?


Only if your army list entry allows you to take an additional handweapon as an option, or you come readily equipped with two handweapons, you may use it.On what do you base this leap? The rules require only that you have 2 hand weapons, not that one of them is intrinsically "additional".

Festus
29-08-2005, 18:37
Hi

units with two handweapons benefit from the +1 attack, as can units that can buy additional handweapons as an option, of course, this includes characters.

A throwing weapon can be used as a handwepon, but it doesn't qualify ....


... on second thought: Nevermind.
You play the way you feel is right, and I do too.

We probably never meet each other anyway.

Festus

Atrahasis
29-08-2005, 18:40
A throwing weapon can be used as a handwepon, but it doesn't qualify ....

Why not? It says right there in black and white that it counts as a hand weapon.



... on second thought: Nevermind.
You play the way you feel is right, and I do too.

We probably never meet each other anyway.


I don't play Beasts (often), and my centigors are still unpainted. This discussion is largely hypothetical on my part. The rules allow Centigor +1 attack from hand weapon + throwing axe. Whether that is intended (I don't believe it is) is another matter entirely. If someone were to face me and do it, then I could have no qualm with him doing so, as the rules support it and I'm not about to judge someone for following the rules.

Festus
29-08-2005, 20:49
Hi

If someone were to face me and do it, then I could have no qualm with him doing so, as the rules support it and I'm not about to judge someone for following the rules.
Well, obviously *to follow the rules* means something different entirely from *following the rules*. :(

I for one would not object during the game, as the benefit of it is only marginal (what? about a 10 point difference with a normal unit of centigors?).
But I surely would not want to play a game against that particular oponent any time soon....

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
30-08-2005, 07:18
Well, obviously *to follow the rules* means something different entirely from *following the rules*. :(

How so? The rules allow anyone with a hand weapon in each hand +1 attack. Centigors have hand weapons, and if the player pays the points, they get throwing axes as well. Throwing axes can be used as hand weapons, so the Centigors are capable of using a hand weapon in each hand and thus gaining +1 attack.

If you know of any rules (ie not your opinion of how things should work) that contradict this, then please, lets hear them.

Griefbringer
30-08-2005, 08:18
Throwing axes can be used as hand weapons

This is somewhat questionable, as the rulebook (page 92) says:

"Note that throwing axes cannot be used in close combat - or if used they simply count as hand weapons."

Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

Atrahasis
30-08-2005, 08:25
This is somewhat questionable, as the rulebook (page 92) says:

"Note that throwing axes cannot be used in close combat - or if used they simply count as hand weapons."

Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

It is merely making clear that wielding them in CC does not grant the normal +1S for using a throwing axe.

Yanos
30-08-2005, 09:26
I don't see why the extra hand weapon rule should apply. The points have been paid for a missile weapon, whose rules state what it can and can't do. When we're arguing over a piece of obscure wording I generally think it's safest to stick to what we know.

To put it another way, pistols can be used in the Shooting and Combat phases. But they have a different entry in the Weapons section of the BRB for each. My take is that throwing axes are for throwing.

Atrahasis
30-08-2005, 09:59
My take is that throwing axes are for throwing.

But they can be used as hand weapons. And hand weapons can be used in either hand, if you've got two, then you get +1 attack.

Yanos
30-08-2005, 10:40
I really can't fault your logic :D, even though I still think you should only get what you pay the points for (a missile weapon). Sadly there'll be no solid, official resolution to this until the BRB text that Griefbringer quoted gets clarified one way or the other :rolleyes:. First it says they can't be used for CC, but then again... :wtf:. Ah, it's why we all love the Rules Forum!