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Bazzal
09-09-2007, 20:37
an old question im sure but does anyone know for def is lord kroak has 8 wounds or 10. my argument is basically that on his profile it has 8. then syas he counts as a 2nd gen slann so he should get +2. now normally special characters are set but on his stats he has 0 Attacks but it says he has Contemplation. meaning he actually does have 1 attack added to the stats so the wounds should aslo get added. yes no? opinions?

as requested i have added a poll to this thread to see what the common answer is

GranFarfar
09-09-2007, 20:45
I would say that, yes he gets 2 additional wounds. No question about it.
The attack on the other hand, I am not so sure about that one.
Page 24 only states "its single attack is made by its Skink attendant...", assuming the slann already has one attack. It does not say that he gets an additional attack. It is not clear cut, but I would say no to the extra attack.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-09-2007, 20:48
Ummm...no. He has 8 wounds. Pure and simple. And no attacks.

The profile is there for a reason.

Bazzal
09-09-2007, 20:49
oh no i didnt mean the slann gets an extra attack, i know its the skink servent that makes only a single attack. its just that lord kroak has A0.

but im happy that he would get the 10 wounds makes him a bit more worth the 1k plus points lol

Finnigan2004
09-09-2007, 20:56
I think that RAW would give him 10 wounds because it does say all of the abilities of a 2nd gen. slann. There is no indication that he should have any attack, so I would say definitely no on that.

Crube
09-09-2007, 20:56
Normally, special characters profile are as stated... but it depends on the exact wording... I dont have the lizzie book to hand, so anyone care to enlighten us...




Or someone like the encyclopedic T10 to point us in the right direction...?


Personally, I say W8, but....

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-09-2007, 20:56
But, as I said he doesn't.

Look at it this way. Lord Kroak is not a Slaan. Lord Kroak is a Lord Kroak.

His statline in the book, is his statline. This is not modified in anyway.

GranFarfar
09-09-2007, 21:02
Ummm...no. He has 8 wounds. Pure and simple. And no attacks.

The profile is there for a reason.

"Lord Kroak has all the abilites of a Second Generation Slann..." p.67

A second generation slann gets two additional wounds as part of it's upgrade. p 49

Some exceptions to those abilities are stated on Kroak, and none of those is that he don't gets any extra wounds.

He may not be may not be a slann, even if I think this is a stretch. But it is clearly stated that he has the same abilities.
Is there a rule stating that special characters can't have their statline changed, in any way at all?

Edit: On the attack thing, this is purely fluff. He don't have a skink attendant, it is dead.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-09-2007, 21:05
HE doesn't get the additional wounds added to his profile. They will already be on there.

Indeed, Slaan start on 6. Third Gen have 7, 2nd Gen have 8.

Lord Kroak has 8 on his profile. Ergo, the bonus wounds are already added.

Bazzal
09-09-2007, 21:10
p.67 also states that 'Contemplation. like other slann, lord kroak does not actively engage in combat (see page 24)'

page 24 says ' contemplation . . . if engaged in combat, its single attack is made by its skink attendent darting foward to strike before retreating...'

this indicates that lord croaks attendent will also make 1 atack, thus making lord kroaks attack 1 on his profile, like a regular slann. and the argument is since this attack isnt included on his stats then neither are the extra wounds thus he should gain the extra 2 wounds.

another note



Look at it this way. Lord Kroak is not a Slaan. Lord Kroak is a Lord Kroak.


no where does it say lord croak is a level 4 wizard just he is a slann by all rights (making him level 4 slann)
else he gets the 1 power dice he gets with the amulet. and i doubt that lord kroak gets 1 pd lol

Axel
09-09-2007, 21:11
Hmm. A special character using two handweapons will get +1 attack, it is not included in his profile (unless especially noted). So there might be a point in assuming that the 2nd generation Slann also gives the +2 Wounds benefit, not only the others.

Chaos and Evil
09-09-2007, 21:19
Stop trying to rules-lawyer Lord Kroak (An already overpoweringly good character) into even greater heights of power.

He's quite good enough already.

Baindread
09-09-2007, 21:27
If the extra wounds are already in his stats it will say so. You can't give any solid reasons for the case not being so so just letīs get this discussion over with.

Prophet of Quetzl
09-09-2007, 21:32
W8 A0 - less of the rules-lawyering as Chaos&Evil says

Bazzal
09-09-2007, 21:36
so if lord kroak stats have no attacks whats the point saying he has contemplation? which says that the skink attendent will attack for him. thus giving 1 atack to kroak, which means his stats go from 0 attacks to 1 attack? else contemplation has no meaning

sowi for draggin this on but iv had the same argument with my friends and they wont let me use kroak unless i have a def answer.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-09-2007, 21:41
Right, contemplation states that....

If engaged in combat, *it's* single attack is made by it's Skinka attendant'

Not, *a* single attack. ITS single attack.

Lord Kroak has no attacks on his profile, ergo, he has no Skink (the dead one is dead, not Undead) to attack with.

So, he has 8 wounds, and no attacks. Nice try, but reading the rules would have shown this to be the case.

EvC
09-09-2007, 21:42
I don't think it's rules lawyering. A character has a set profile, and then special rules sometimes add extra abilities, so it would confuse some people as to whether or not you add the extra wounds on top. It doesn't seem odd to me that an undead 1st Gen Slann might have more wounds on his profile than a regular 2nd Gen Slann.

Having said that, for an example I'd look at the Vampire Counts Special Character Zacharias the Everliving. He is a Necrarch Vampire, which means he has -2WS. However, his profile lists his WS as 6 (Regular Vamp Lord WS = 8), so I think it's safe to assume that all modifications to a Special Character's profile are included in the statline.

NB this doesn't account for regular GW rules botching ;)

Prophet of Quetzl
09-09-2007, 21:59
The contemplation rule on p24 states "its single attack is made by its Skink attendant" this rule refers to the regular slann's single attach as per the profile. Kroak does not have any attacks on his profile so his Skink attendant makes zero attacks - reasonable considering he too is mummified! The only part of the contemplation rule of any real application to Kroak is that he himself will not fight - so no flaming swords etc.

Wounds is 8. read the end of the middle paragraph under second generation on p49. between the ()'s it states that the +2 wounds is additional to the 4th and 5th gen slann profile, which has 6 wounds - therefore a 2nd gen has 8 wounds.

Now take a look at Kroaks profile... 8 wounds... this because he has the 2nd gen abilities and therefore has 8 wounds like any other Slann with 2nd gen abilities.

Jonke
09-09-2007, 22:06
I find this far from clear. Usually the designers in cases like this writes if any bonuses are included in the profile. Unfortunately they haven't done that in this case, possibly meaning the bonuses aren't included.

The question if he may attack is clear though imo. A nrmal slann has 1 attack (fluffwise made by the skink) nowhere does the contemplation rule imply that slanns has 1 extra attack because of the skink attacking. Kroak has 0 attacks (fluffwise his skink is dead). This means the contemplation rule is meaningless on Kroak, he may not purchase any other magical items besides those he comes with.

Finally, how many extra victory points are awarded for killing Kroak? 200 or 400 (200 for being a 2nd gen slann + 200 for being lord Kroak)?

I'd say Kroak has got 10 wounds, 0 attacks and is worth 400 extra victory points.

Peace!

EvC
09-09-2007, 22:46
Would you also say that the Vampire Special Character's stat penalty of -2WS hasn't been included in his profile, and play that he only has WS4?

Jonke
09-09-2007, 22:55
Uhm, no. Don't think so, but not familiar with teh vc book so really can't say. Inconsistency ftw! :evilgrin:

gerrymander61
09-09-2007, 23:50
Zacharias is just some joe Necharach though, and it doesn't make any sense at all that he's weaker than regular Necharach. But lord Kroak transcends the regular level of slannitude, besides, GW was sillier back then, now it's super strict on the wording and interpretation. It also makes sense fluffwise that K-sauce would be tougher than regular slann.

I don't see that this is hard, the rulebook is quite clear int that he gets all the bonuses of a regular Slann, which includes +2 wounds. There's nothing to suggest otherwise. I do also believe however that he does give +400 victory points as well.

EvC
10-09-2007, 00:19
Mannfred von Carstein also has lower WS than a typical Vampire Lord of his bloodline as well, so clearly the argument that "it doesn't make any sense at all that he's weaker" is not valid at all. So either both special characters get the stat bonus/ penalty that their special rules dictate on top of their individual statline, or neither does. Or you can just be inconsistent ;)

Baindread
10-09-2007, 00:26
I would rule that Kroak gets +2 wounds and that GW was a bit sloppier....what? 6-7 years ago?

The Pale Lady
10-09-2007, 00:28
This seems strange to me, Lord Kroak's stats are as his stat's say. Obviously you could argue the other way, but thats just looking for loopholes. 8 wounds because he is an ancient mummified slann. 0 attacks because he is an ancient mummified slann.

TPL

Nargrakhan
10-09-2007, 03:03
I've always seen him played as the stats list: 8 wounds and 0 attacks. :confused:

He's powerful as it is. :p

Spoonie
10-09-2007, 03:47
GW was sillier back then, now it's super strict on the wording and interpretation.

Ahahaha, ahahahahahahaha.

And just to stay on topic - 8 wounds, 0 attacks.

GranFarfar
10-09-2007, 08:33
HE doesn't get the additional wounds added to his profile. They will already be on there.

Indeed, Slaan start on 6. Third Gen have 7, 2nd Gen have 8.

Lord Kroak has 8 on his profile. Ergo, the bonus wounds are already added.

But he wasn't a slann you said, so how is it then possible to assume that the bonus is already added?
Besides, it is one interpetation that the wounds are already added, but it is not stated anywhere that this is the case. Therefore you can't assume that this is true, if you ask me.

And to those screaming rule-lawyering, none of the others. Who atleast presents arguments. Is that the best argument you have? Claiming a 1.2k point character is already strong enough? Just because a interpetation of the rules dosn't suits you. I might aswell say, stop disregarding the rules.

Griefbringer
10-09-2007, 10:41
I would rule that Kroak gets +2 wounds and that GW was a bit sloppier....what? 6-7 years ago?

Lizardmen book came out in 2003, so only 4 years ago.

Bazzal
10-09-2007, 11:48
so basicaly the general vote is that so far lord kroak has 0 attacks wich everyone agrees on. woo we're getting somewhere.

so whats the point in lord kroak having contemplation?

i know this doesnt give lord kroak an attack, but it does give the skink attendent one? yes? no?

Masque
10-09-2007, 11:57
so whats the point in lord kroak having contemplation?

As someone already pointed out, Contemplation prevents him from attacking even if he gains attacks from some special effect or spell such as Flaming Sword of Rhuin.

EvC
10-09-2007, 12:11
Well it's just there to justify the 0 attacks and guarantee that he never gets to attack or use magic weapons, even in dodgy situations like Masque refers to, I should think.


Lizardmen book came out in 2003, so only 4 years ago.

I think he means in comparison with the VC book that I brought up, to justify the entirely arbitrary rationale that the more recent special character gets his special rules bonuses added to his stats on top of the statline, while the older special character's special rules are not applied to further modify his stats.

Nargrakhan
10-09-2007, 14:18
Is it too late to turn this into a poll? ;)

Jedi152
10-09-2007, 14:33
W8. Special characters have had all stat modifications taken into account, they can only ever be fielded as written.

GranFarfar
10-09-2007, 15:24
W8. Special characters have had all stat modifications taken into account, they can only ever be fielded as written.

And if the written rules tells us to add 2 wounds?

EvC
10-09-2007, 18:18
Then they've already been added if it's a special character ;)

Prophet of Quetzl
10-09-2007, 19:32
The main problem I have in proving my argument (W8, A0) is that the regular Slann just has one entry in the main army list and effectively refers you to the 'bestiary' section for 4th-2nd gen Slanns (or whatever the plural of Slann is!).

However, if the full profiles of the 4th-2nd gen slann were included in the main army list section then I doubt we would be having a debate about whether the the 2nd gen gets 8 or 10 wounds.

Should I ever use him, I will play Kroak as W8, A0.

GranFarfar
10-09-2007, 19:36
Then they've already been added if it's a special character ;)

Of course, how silly of me! :p

Jedi152
11-09-2007, 08:07
And if the written rules tells us to add 2 wounds?
The rules for Kroak nowhere mention that you should start adding wounds.

Special characters don't adhere to the 'standard' rules, even if they are a Slann. Their rules are always separate and can't be combined with any others in any way.

GranFarfar
11-09-2007, 08:40
The rules for Kroak nowhere mention that you should start adding wounds.

Special characters don't adhere to the 'standard' rules, even if they are a Slann. Their rules are always separate and can't be combined with any others in any way.

Is this from the BRB? I am asking, causs I am not to familiar with the special character part. The only thing the army books tells us is that they must be fielded as presented, with no magic items or equipment.

The slann 2 gen. rule is listed on his page, and it is neither equipment, nore items.

And it does tell you to start adding wounds, through the slann rule.

Bernardinatti
11-09-2007, 13:08
Hi all,

This is my first post but i must say i feel rather strongly about this. I believe that Lord Kroak would not get the extra two wounds making him W10.

Most of the arguments have been made both for and against this, yes he does get all the rules of a second gen slann on top of his own special rules. However i believe that if GW desired him as a 10 wound lord they would have listed him as such.

I know that a Special Character's stats can be changed (Teclis being a main case in point) but i believe it would only be because of special circumstances during the battle (spells, items (in the case of Teclis)).

The stats listed in their respective army books are the stats they start the battle with. (In MY opinion of course)

theunwantedbeing
11-09-2007, 13:14
Teclis stats dont change though.....
He has 2 seperate profiles which he may switch between.

Thorgrimm has his additional wounds included in his profile.
A bloodthirster has his might of khorne included in his profile.
Zacharias has his reduced weaponskill included in his profile.

It seems very odd that kroak would be the sole exception to this rule.

mattjgilbert
11-09-2007, 13:36
A profile is a profile and those presented for special characters already include any bonuses or modifications their equipment/skill/abilities confer.

Note however that this is a convention and not a rule so you are not going to find it stated anywhere in the BRB.

If the profile says A0 and W8 he has A0 and W8.

Atrahasis
11-09-2007, 14:17
Kroak has the abilities of a 2nd generation Slann. The increase in wounds is a bonus.

Compare the text on page 49 to that on page 67 - page 49 says that each older generation has all the "abilities and bonuses" of younger generations, while page 67 says that Kroak has the "abilities" of a 2nd gen slann.

Finnigan2004
11-09-2007, 15:10
While I prefer your interpretation Atrahasis and I do think that this is rules lawyering at it's worst, I think that the wounds increase is technically correct because for your interpretation to work the book would have to deliniate which increases were bonuses and which were abilities. Under your interpretation would Kroak get a bonus casting dice? Are extra casting dice a bonus or an ability?

That said, I do not think that it would be in the spirit of the game to try to claim the wounds because the failure to state that the bonus wounds were already included in the profile was an oversight. If someone insisted I'd let them do it, but they would certainly not be a person that I would like to play again (only my personal opinion).

@unwanted being-- you are very right about the bloodthirster, but the chaos book does include the original stat beside the modified one to show the increase. The lizardman book does not do this, or otherwise note that the wounds are already included (although it probably should). I'm not sure if they have it noted in the profile or description of the other two that bonuses are included (and I'm way too lazy to walk downstairs to look in the books-- I'll check it after work and edit if I rememeber), but in kroak's description there is no note to say bonuses are included-- quite the contrary in fact.

Prophet of Quetzl
11-09-2007, 19:47
So in summary:

-VP situation is pretty clear. Kroak's rules state "+200 Victory Points (see page 49)" not "+200 Victory Points (in addition to those given on page 49)". So 1225+200 = 1445VP's for Kroak.

-The attacks question seems to be agreed now; A=0 as per the profile for Kroak on page 67.

-Only the Wounds issue remains. I can only repeat what I wrote earlier ie. Read the end of the middle paragraph under second generation on p49. between the ()'s it states that the +2 wounds is additional to the 4th and 5th gen slann profile, which has 6 wounds. Now take a look at Kroaks profile... 8 wounds (which is 6+2).

That's good enough for me but if you want to play it W10 go ahead.:rolleyes:

Lord Tzeentch
11-09-2007, 20:52
I think if you use him with 10 wounds then he would take up 1 lord choice 2 heroes slots and 2 rare slots. Also as Prophet said that it states that a 2nd gen has 2 more wounds than the 4th and 5th gens, and Kroak has the same abilities as a 2nd gen with the following additions.

Also that would mean that Zacharias is WS4 now that would be a hard sale as he takes up a lord and 3 heroes.

Masque
11-09-2007, 21:17
I'm not sure which camp I'm in concerning Lord Kroak. But, to all those people trying to use Zacharias as some kind of counter-example I have this to say. Nowhere in Zacharias' rules does it say he uses all the rules for Necrarchs. It lists some that he does use but that does not include the -2WS rule. In fact it doesn't even say he is a Necrarch or even that he is a Vampire. If you wanted to get really, really rules lawyerish (and I know some of us do) then you could argue that he doesn't prevent you from selecting a different Bloodline for your other Vampires.

Lord Tzeentch
11-09-2007, 21:22
(Reads the book of the dead) yek Gods your right!! My apologies dear sir/lady.

Bob5000
11-09-2007, 22:04
"Lord Kroak must be fielded as presented here" on page 67
Edit : this alone should mean W8

An extra wound is not an ability .

The 2nd Gen Slann has one more wound than a third gen , even if we were to accept the extra wound is an ability ( which I dont ) , then Lord Kroak would have the abilities of a 2nd Gen , which would mean +1 wound than a third gen .

EvC
12-09-2007, 00:22
I'm not sure which camp I'm in concerning Lord Kroak. But, to all those people trying to use Zacharias as some kind of counter-example I have this to say. Nowhere in Zacharias' rules does it say he uses all the rules for Necrarchs. It lists some that he does use but that does not include the -2WS rule. In fact it doesn't even say he is a Necrarch or even that he is a Vampire. If you wanted to get really, really rules lawyerish (and I know some of us do) then you could argue that he doesn't prevent you from selecting a different Bloodline for your other Vampires.

Well, it's really just me who's used this as a counter-example, and the rules do indeed refer to him as a Necrarch, which is a type of Vampire... but you are correct to point out that it doesn't say he uses the standard Necrarch abilities (And indeed specifically says to give him +1 to cast spells) so I guess he's not a valid counterpoint after all!

RapidKiller
12-09-2007, 01:53
I say he has 10 wounds because, as Atrahasis says, kroak has all the abilities of a second gen which includes +2 wounds.

the only counter arguments i have seen here are other armies characters and that 6+2=8. go figure.

Krankenstein
12-09-2007, 09:11
I think if you use him with 10 wounds then he would take up 1 lord choice 2 heroes slots and 2 rare slots.

I don't anything about Lizards, but special rules as they apply to special characters is a universal issue. So could you spell this argument out in detail?

Cheer Up Mike
12-09-2007, 16:05
I don't anything about Lizards, but special rules as they apply to special characters is a universal issue. So could you spell this argument out in detail?

The arguement is that Lord Kroak gets the +2 wounds for having all the abilities of a 2nd Level Gen, and a 2nd Gen takes up a lord, hero and rare choice. So adding the 2 wounds on then the extra Lord, Hero and Rare choice ontop of Kroaks Lord, Hero and Rare choice

I play with Kroak every now and then, and I dont use him as 10W, its stated in the profile as 8, a normal 2nd Gen has 8 wounds, I dont see any need for Kroak to have 10. He may have once been a beasty Slann, but he is dead! Dead!

Kroak ftw!

Abduction
12-09-2007, 21:31
The rules says that he counts as a 2nd generation Slann, and that gives him 2 more wounds to his profile. And in his profile there are 8, so 8+2=10 wounds.

Prophet of Quetzl
12-09-2007, 21:46
The rules says that he counts as a 2nd generation Slann, and that gives him 2 more wounds to his profile. And in his profile there are 8, so 8+2=10 wounds.

It says +2 wounds is additional to the 4th and 5th gen slann profile. I know I am starting to sound like a broken record but no-one seems to be able to grasp this :rolleyes: It is W8 as in the Kroak profile.

Again, as Bob5000 below, I am a Lizardman player and have no reason to underpower Kroak.

Bob5000
12-09-2007, 22:03
Lizzie book summarises that a 2nd Gen Slann has 2 more wounds than a 4th or 5th gen Slann , as a 2nd Gen gets + 1 W than a 3rd , who gets one more than a 4th
Its a summary of the cumulative effect of the + 1 wound at each gen step from 3rd gen folks ! .

If one was to accept the basic incorrect premise that additional Wounds were added for Kroak , then why would it be +2 W ? it would be + 1 more wound , making it W 9 if one made the erroneous stretch that each gen above 3rd gets a cumulative extra wound , or that Kroak would get the extra +1 that 2nd Gen have in relation to 3rd gen

However you have to take the stats printed on the Kroak page .

BTW , I have no anti Kroak vested interest , as I have him in my Lizzie Army