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View Full Version : The Novelty And Fear Of Apocalypse. (Small Rant Optional)



Shadow-BOT
09-09-2007, 20:47
I have been reading apocalypse threads for the past month and a half, and I am stocked out of my mind for it. However, recently I began thinking.

Beggining of a small rant, if you want to go to the actual post, go down a bit lower.

Is it anything like cities of death? Which is rarely played? My first thought was "No, Cities of Death did not have such massive hype leading up to it, or all of these great box deals". But how often do you play an Apocalypse game? I myself would get one every week since our club is gigantic. But what about those people who just meet once every couple of months? Would the purchase really justify it?

And what about support? GW said that they would release new datasheets online. But seeing as how slow they even with major things like FAQ's, can we really believe them on this?

I know there are a group of apocalypse "nay-sayers", who wholeheartedly agree that apocalypse is just a money grab.

But what about the fact that Apoc is geared at veterans. Veterans who ALREADY have enough models for apocalypse. I don't know about you, but I never met any rogue trader/ 2nd ed 40k player who did not have a shedload of models that they could not use.

And with all of these "OMFG APOC is gunna take lik3 9 hours".
How do you know? Seeing as everyone who READ the apocalypse book even said that games are going to take around 2-3 hours.

And all of these other groups nitpicking things like tournaments. APOC is not tournament orientated, GW even said so themselves. And the other group who goes "ZOMG Monololith Phalanx o' Doom".

AWESOME, JUST AWESOME, hey guy, do you happen to know a player with 6 monoliths? I sure don't, and I know there are some that do, but that is in the minority of necron players.

And those people saying "Its a dice war". Wait, isn't that what 40k is even about? Dice?
Sure there are those tactics, but in the end, it all comes down to 1 major factor "dice rolls".

I personally would love to shoot 9 eartshaker cannons at a Titan, thats why I love apocalypse. I want to fight some of the things I never would have gotten a chance too normally.

Sure a baneblade will be more common, but since it is nigh unusable in normal games, the little kiddies will have to get enough stuff for 3000 points.

/rant over.

I just had to vent over a few things.

What I really want to ask is, is apocalypse a novelty that will rarely be played bar the first few months? Or will it be a major section of 40k? Will GW support apocalypse by having special "apoc days", and possibly get an apoc game in White Dwarf every few months? Or will it just be that, a way to get rid of stock for christmas?

I think it is the latter, but it could possibly become very popular among veterans and people who have a dice fetish.

If you think my rant is idiotic, then you have your opinion, do not even bother posting, it wastes bandwith.

marv335
09-09-2007, 21:44
Well I'm looking forward to it. I'm working on expanding my Crimson Fist force to a full company.
It's not for everyone. People will need to have room. Big tables are the order of the day here I think. I'm looking to play on 8'x6' at least. use the range of the big guns.
I doubt it'll be played much in the stores. Space and Time will be the hampering factor here, But this game is made for games clubs.
I ordered my Backpack/rulebook/templates/dice today.

Greatoliver
09-09-2007, 21:54
This Thursday, my club are playing a 4,000 (give or take a couple of thousand) point battle which includes all of the member there (about 6-8).

In about six months, the points limit may be up to about 10,000.

Apocalypse will be one of those things that'll be played once in a while inside GW stores, and a lot outside of them. I'll probably get the rulebook just to add flavour to the large battles that we play.

W0lf
09-09-2007, 21:58
apocalype holds not a single ounce of interest to me.

Ive played 40k for six years and tbh i see apoc as more of a hassle then a good thing.

Anyone who cant see its just GW trying to sell more models is blind.

505
09-09-2007, 22:01
Apoc will take 9 hours 4 to set up to play and 3 to tear down :)

just kidding.

I honostly think GW will release a few data sheets right away (3 on the internet and one or two in White dwarf). but when the novelty runs out they will release mabey one a year if they feel like it
(I truly think that they already have 5 or 6 planned to go out right away)

yes Apoc is ment to sell more models but can you fault GW that is thier business no one tells Ford when they come out with a new car "all you want to do is sell more cars" Selling models is all that Warhammer, 40k, LoTR is about. and it is the root of everything they do. do ou think they hold Gamesdays just to spend money or so that people will buy more models? (can someone htink of anything GW did that was not focused on makeing more models sales? I didn't think so)

I do not fault anyone who has no interest in Apoc different strokes for different folks. that is why I tried to avoid getting in these discussions. No matter what GW does half the people will hate it and half the people will love it. me I like it I love huge grand games whenever my wife leavs town I plan one (two if I could) but that does not mean everyone likes them I also enjoy tournaments and friendly 1k point games. heck I just like to play.

the big problem with all these APOc is great/sucky threads is that everyone thinks that thier oppinion is the only right one. that is one of the things I like about Warhammer it gives you options 2 game systems fantasy/40K 30 different armybook/codex each armybook/codex has 20 different options. Why all the options so you can play the games that you want. an you imagine if warhammer was like chess. there is only one army type out there with a specific set of playing peices and nothing you can do will change that. (don't say thats space marines we all know there are 6 different types :) )

so if it aint for you don't expect everyone to not like it and if Apoc is something you really like don't expect everyone to love it

rant over

marv335
09-09-2007, 22:13
Anyone who cant see its just GW trying to sell more models is blind.

That's not a problem for me.
Let them. The same could be said about anything.
I'm going to play, with my friends. I've got about 6000pts of marines anyway.
I am going to buy a few bits and pieces to round out my force to a full company, but I was planning to do that anyway.
Also there are some fantastic deals to be had. I wish I needed more stuff, I could have saved a fortune on what I've already spent over the years.

Hulkster
09-09-2007, 22:22
apocalype holds not a single ounce of interest to me.

Ive played 40k for six years and tbh i see apoc as more of a hassle then a good thing.

Anyone who cant see its just GW trying to sell more models is blind.

well ive been playing for about 12 years and i am really looking forward to it

of course it is GW trying to sell more models, I would be annoyed if they didnt because if they didnt then they would go bust and I wouldnt have my 40k anymore

lord_blackfang
09-09-2007, 22:28
Anyone who cant see its just GW trying to sell more models is blind.

Spoiler: GW is not a charity. Everything they do is about selling more models. That's how they put bread on the table.

On topic, yeah, I think Apocalypse will be a rarely played novelty. But if the bargain kits stay permanently available, it's all good.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-09-2007, 22:48
Well, heres the stickler.

The book, is £30. Thats right, just £30...pretty measily really, when you consider it's potential shelf life!

Whether you play it once in a blue moon, or play it every day, three times a day, it's well worth procuring it, on the off chance you get invited to a Weekends massacre!

As for Cities of Death, I'll only play that. Much more fun than normal 40k!

starlight
09-09-2007, 22:49
Agreed.:p

*OF COURSE* Apocalypse is about selling models, afterall, that's how GW pays the bills...:eyebrows:

I think that it is the long awaited support for Vets we've been demanding for years. The only real question in my mind is *How long will support (big kits, datasheets, etc) last?

If it lasts, then GW is doing a wonderful thing.

If it's just a splash, then they're doing more harm than good.

*saves pennies*;)

robertsjf
10-09-2007, 01:09
As for Cities of Death, I'll only play that. Much more fun than normal 40k!


Mad Doc, I'm going to go out on a limb and make a brave statement:

You like CoD better than 40k because of the level of terrain.

Correct?

It makes sense, most of these types of engagement should be in a built up area. Why not play 40k on a heavily forested board(old jungle fight type theme), or one that represents a mountainous region? Would the loss of the strategems have too much of an overall effect?

Ultimately, I see both sets as rule supplements for the core system and will use and discard what I see fit (I run all my buildings under the CoD terrain rule, even if I'm not playing a CoD game).

boreas
10-09-2007, 01:38
I have been reading apocalypse threads for
Is it anything like cities of death? Which is rarely played?

And with all of these "OMFG APOC is gunna take lik3 9 hours".
How do you know? Seeing as everyone who READ the apocalypse book even said that games are going to take around 2-3 hours.



My gaming group almost exclusively play COD since it came out (and we bought/built 7-10 buildings). Our opinion is that modern warfare has to do with cities. Who cares about a jungle??? Also, the stratagems add some "randomness". Once you've played 234789 games against a Tyranid armies, you've seen what it can do. A genestealer army that can run at you from sewertraps adds another dimension. Also, the "multilevel" play of a city also puts in other factors...

Now, we also already play 4000-5000 pts per side games (most of the time over 2 evenings). That allows us to bring in those models we would rarley use (ie arco-flagellant or penitent engines in my case). In a 1850 pts game, ine tends to bring one's most usefull 1850 pts of models (ie exorcists). As I don't have 3 exorcist, in a 4000 pts games I HAVE to use other stuff...

What does this have to do with Apocalypse. Well, It'll encourage me to do the same, just more!!! It's GW's way of telling me: Phil, you're having fun playing fluffy/mega/weird 40K game. Well now, you have more rules/stratagems/datasheets to expand that fun.


The only thing GW could do to make 40K more fun for us would be to sell some good beer...

Phil

Drasriath
10-09-2007, 02:55
I am very, very, very happy with what I've read from it. I think that GW should altogether move away from competitive play, because it's what's really ruining the game in alot of ways. People are so focused on winning and tournaments and all that, that the whole point of the game (recreating battles from a cool sci-fi world) Totally became lost. Players end up not being able to use 2/3rds of the minis they bought, because this edition some lists just aren't playable, and instead of just being able to appreciate the game in your own way, and make a list true to what you'd /like/ to play, and still be able to enjoy yourself... you're now forced into the same tired "Same old mech Eldar list" or "Same old Godzilla bug list" or "Same old Marine las/plas list" just to be able to win games some of the time.

I hope seriously that Apocalypse will mellow some people out in that respect so gaming can become about fun again.

Bassik
10-09-2007, 05:41
Our gaming club looks forward to it. We have a few players with a real pack-rat mentality, I among them, so models won't be a problem.
(Altough I am considdering the tide of spawn boxed set:evilgrin:)

Even before we heard of apocalypse we had a tendency to play 2-3K games, we're glad GW came with rules for us pack-rats.
And if they make an extra penny out of it... all the better!

sebster
10-09-2007, 06:14
I hope seriously that Apocalypse will mellow some people out in that respect so gaming can become about fun again.

Iím looking forward to it, variety being the spice of life Iím all for GW releasing a range of different ways to play the game. I donít think Apoc will replace my regular games, but help facilitate the occasional mega-game involving a half dozen of us putting all our miniatures on the field, just for a different style of game.

That said, I donít think Apoc will go a long way towards turning competitive gamers into fun gamers. The decision to only play competitive lists and never vary that up is a gamerís own decision. Iím lucky right now that Iím in a group that is happy to play varying lists from game to game, of varying effectiveness. Even still, weíve had new people turn up whoíve taken the same optimum list each and every game, and then wondered why people arenít keen to play the same list they played against the last 3 games. Thatís just their choice, and a new expansion with a couple of goofy rules probably isnít going to change much long term.

alexh
10-09-2007, 06:33
The only thing GW could do to make 40K more fun for us would be to sell some good beer...

Phil

They do at Warhammer World. :D:D

Back on topic though, I think Apocalypse will be played quite often (when you've tasted blood, you want more) considering the fact that it doesn't take much longer to play than a normal game (apparently). I, myself, am looking forward to it and from what I can see, so are most people. If you are in the (seemingly) minority who don't think it is a good thing, the answer is simple, don't play.

Calden
10-09-2007, 08:50
Both supliments are going to be largely a novelty. This is mainly due to the impracticality of the gaming surface. Just about anyone can manage to get a surface between 4'x4' and 4'x6', with normal terrain.

Cities of Death is rarer mainly because of the terrain involved, more is needed, so more storage is needed. Thus fewer people have the available terrain.

As for Apocalypse, it will be rarer due to the table size. Large tables mean that a greater % of the room in use is used up by the Apocalypse game. This fine if a large number of 40k players present are involved in the game, but not so good at gaming clubs that cater to more than just 40k, and also if not every 40k player present wants to play. Also very few people have access to very large gaming spaces at home, apart from playing on the floor.

I think that Apocalypse will be something that most people will play infrequently, and for the pure fun and madness of it. I don't see it becoming a regular way of playing for most people.

IJW
10-09-2007, 09:17
Given a choice, I play CoD over regular 40k almost all the time. Partly for the terrain, but mostly for the extra level of interest and variation that the Stratagems bring to the game.

Apocalypse has even more Stratagems. :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-09-2007, 09:18
I I don't know about you, but I never met any rogue trader/ 2nd ed 40k player who did not have a shedload of models that they could not use.


*raise hand*
Started some time during 2nd ed, and been playing for more than a decade but I don't have apocalypse sized armies. I got an eldar army I used in 2nd that I have no real intention of using with the current book, I got a DA army that would come in at around 2k I guess, maybe a little more if I used everything. Got various bits of old nids and Chaos, nothing much, and not something I plan to use. Of course, I don't have massive armies for WFB either, they are in the 2-3k brand.

I just never had the compulsion to continously expand my armies when I had the stuff I wanted to play with.

Come to think of it, the friend I started playing with don't have larger armies either I believe, I'm not quite sure about some of the older guys at the club, but I don't think they really have either. But then we talked about Apocalypse last month and no one was really all that interested.

IJW
10-09-2007, 09:25
I would suspect that the two go together - the people who do have a ton of models (like yours truly) are the ones who are interested in Apocalypse. Pretty much by definition, any longer-term player who only has small armies isn't that interested in big games.

IncubiLord
10-09-2007, 10:26
I think that it is the long awaited support for Vets we've been demanding for years.
Sure it is.

"Here's how to play an anything-goes game quickly. If you want to play something less insane, make house rules - like you were already doing."

The only real question in my mind is *How long will support (big kits, datasheets, etc) last?
A year, maybe two. After that, GW will completely ignore it - just like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, BFG, Space Hulk, Epic...


In addition to the table-issue already raised, Apocolypse has the further impediment of being more expensive than the starter set. A $50 book, plus the cost of special templates (and possibly unique dice - they don't look special to me, though)? I know a lot of my gaming crowd won't spend that much money for a mega-battles supplement. Maybe if it had been another $20 book and the big templates are available to photocopy from the back, but the up-front cost just to play this variation of 40K is going to be a serious deterrent.

Furthermore, I've not yet seen anything to lure the lightly-armored, close-ranged armies into Apocolypse. Shooting is even more lethal and there's more ground to cross.
Unless I'm going to scratch-build Gargants or Bio-Titans, my Orks and Tyranids seem to be in a world of trouble. Who knows, though? Maybe there'll be some crazy stratagem-thing where everything can arrive via the sewers if you play a small enough army.

To add to the apparent failings of this supplement, it's marketed as a game requiring an army size that will automatically deter new players. Even with these Apocolypse bundle-deals, building a 3000+ army is a steep initial investment in a game you might not end up liking. There are already plenty of people who find 40K an expensive hobby when building towards a 1500-point force.


To the OP:
Yeah, I expect Apocolypse to be a novelty in most locales.

Even if it meets a pretty good reception, I wouldn't expect more than a couple of the books to sell at any given store and I'd be surprised to see mega-battles take over even half of a store's gaming.

GW will probably spam it like it's the best thing since sliced bread for a year, try to push it for another year, and then give up on it, handing it to their "Specialist Games" people to hide in a back corner.

Pretty much everything I've seen for this so far has given the impression that Apocolypse is really designed for the guys with a big collection who really want to play Titans.

I could get 5000 points of Dark Eldar on the table without buying another model, using FOCs. I'm not interested in games with Titans on the table, though. There might be rules in Apocolypse that I'd like to adopt in my gaming group, but the supplement as a whole doesn't seem appealing.

theshadowduke
10-09-2007, 11:20
Incubi from what I understand there is a stratagem that makes your opponent run out of ammo.

Chaos and Evil
10-09-2007, 11:31
I havn't really hated on Apocalypse, but I'm certainly not entirely interested in it. That's largely because it's not targetted at me.

I'm a wargamer, I like balanced games where the words 'tactics' and 'strategy' mean something.

Apocalypse is the antithesis of that, Apocalypse is 'silly fun'. Now maybe that's all 'Veterans' expect from a Wargame due to their experiences with 40k (Which is already tactically shallow), but it's not my cup of tea.

I already play a superior large battles system, set in the 40k universe, with more tactical depth than standard 40k, not less; I play Epic.

Therefore, I have little use for Apocalypse.



EDIT:

Oh, and Epic has had Titans and Baneblades for quite a few years, and the system is designed and balanced with War Engines in mind from the ground up, and it has a modern turn sequence. So yeah, I don't need me no Apokalypce. :D

But I do understand why some people would want to play Apocalypse (Woooo! Lookkat the carnage!!!), and I may play a game or two myself, but on the whole, it's not for me.

Bunnahabhain
10-09-2007, 12:27
@ chaos and evil.

You want to make 40 k more tactical? try this.

1. Remove the turn limit. Nobody wins by parking a Falcon on the objective in turn six, as it gets shot down next turn.

2. A decent sized playing area. Try 1500 pts on a 6x8, so you can have sensible deployments, or even better, no deployments at all. Units not infiltrating/deep striking move on from the board edge in turn 1.


3.A decent mixture of terrain. Not just amount, but mixture of size 1,2 and 3, and wysiwyg. Open ground, and things like roads and rivers are also vital.

You now have time and space to maneuver properly

FigureFour
10-09-2007, 12:38
Anyone who cant see its just GW trying to sell more models is blind.

Like others have said, it's GOOD that GW is trying to sell more models. I want to BUY more models from them. The fact that they are doing so by selling interesting options for their game system makes it even better.

Please, PLEASE, stop complaining about GW selling models. That's what we all want.


Sure there are those tactics, but in the end, it all comes down to 1 major factor "dice rolls".

Oh god. Please don't tell me that dice are more important then tactics in your games . . .


What I really want to ask is, is apocalypse a novelty that will rarely be played bar the first few months? Or will it be a major section of 40k?

It's definatly going to be a novelty and for 90% of GWs customers, won't replace the core 40k game. However, it's probably a novelty that will last for a long time. Sooner or later, everyones going to feel like a huge battle again, so even if a club only plays an Apocalypse game once every few months, it'll still be a fun addition to their games.

Calden
10-09-2007, 12:54
@ chaos and evil.

You want to make 40 k more tactical? try this.

1. Remove the turn limit. Nobody wins by parking a Falcon on the objective in turn six, as it gets shot down next turn.

So objectives become completely meaningless then?

IJW
10-09-2007, 13:25
I assume he means to make the game length random, so that you never know if the current turn is the last one.

Easy E
10-09-2007, 13:26
I'm excited by Apoc so I can scale it DOWN to 40K games. The deployment rules, Objective rules, and strategems will all make any size of 40K better.

More importantly, it is making players talk to each other about what kind of game they want, and what they want out of it. This is a huge change from expecting everyone to want to play tournament styel pick-up games. It is this type of communication that will help players get a better sense of satisfaction from their games. It's not Codex: Tournaments, but it is a step in the proper direction. That is the #1 reason I WILL buy this book direct from GW, as a vote of support for this direction in gaming.

It will be a novelty in GW stores proper. However, I don't think it is aimed at people who only play in stores. For the rookie, this provides a reason to grow beyond 1,850 pts. For the Vet, it allows them to really mix it up and get interesting.

As for continued support, when has GW ever provided that?

I am looking forward to this particular marketing gimmick.

Lt. Co Steel
10-09-2007, 14:08
To the people who think that Apoc is a bland meat grinder, its only a bland meat grinder if YOU make it a bland meat grinder. Shure, marching 500 guardsmen towards another 500 guardsmen is fun, but it can be made so much more interesting. In my clubs first Apoc battle for example we are going to have Imp Vs Tau and elder, with the guard deploying in the center of the table in a city with the Tau and Elder trying to take the city, who ever controls the city wins. Plus we will have the Space Marine players coming on in following turns to reenforce the guard, as well as lots of our own special rules to complement the Apoc ones.

Chaos and Evil
10-09-2007, 15:25
@ chaos and evil.

You want to make 40 k more tactical? try this.

1. Remove the turn limit. Nobody wins by parking a Falcon on the objective in turn six, as it gets shot down next turn.

That just means that the most 'killy' army wins. An objective-based win is thus impossible.


3.A decent mixture of terrain. Not just amount, but mixture of size 1,2 and 3, and wysiwyg. Open ground, and things like roads and rivers are also vital.

Of course... who doesn't do this? 11 year-olds?


You now have time and space to maneuver properly

When there is almost no advantage to manuever, then time and space are pretty much irrelevant.

I'll stick with Epic for a tactically challenging game, and 40k when I want to watch some fun carnage.

boogle
10-09-2007, 18:20
I'm an avid COD player and am looking forward to Apocalypse as i've loved playing big games but never been satisfied with the standard game mechanics, so it's great for me and my gaming friends

Sons of Russ
10-09-2007, 19:29
Sure it is.

"Here's how to play an anything-goes game quickly. If you want to play something less insane, make house rules - like you were already doing."

A year, maybe two. After that, GW will completely ignore it - just like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, BFG, Space Hulk, Epic...


In addition to the table-issue already raised, Apocolypse has the further impediment of being more expensive than the starter set. A $50 book, plus the cost of special templates (and possibly unique dice - they don't look special to me, though)? I know a lot of my gaming crowd won't spend that much money for a mega-battles supplement. Maybe if it had been another $20 book and the big templates are available to photocopy from the back, but the up-front cost just to play this variation of 40K is going to be a serious deterrent.

Furthermore, I've not yet seen anything to lure the lightly-armored, close-ranged armies into Apocolypse. Shooting is even more lethal and there's more ground to cross.
Unless I'm going to scratch-build Gargants or Bio-Titans, my Orks and Tyranids seem to be in a world of trouble. Who knows, though? Maybe there'll be some crazy stratagem-thing where everything can arrive via the sewers if you play a small enough army.

To add to the apparent failings of this supplement, it's marketed as a game requiring an army size that will automatically deter new players. Even with these Apocolypse bundle-deals, building a 3000+ army is a steep initial investment in a game you might not end up liking. There are already plenty of people who find 40K an expensive hobby when building towards a 1500-point force.


To the OP:
Yeah, I expect Apocolypse to be a novelty in most locales.

Even if it meets a pretty good reception, I wouldn't expect more than a couple of the books to sell at any given store and I'd be surprised to see mega-battles take over even half of a store's gaming.

GW will probably spam it like it's the best thing since sliced bread for a year, try to push it for another year, and then give up on it, handing it to their "Specialist Games" people to hide in a back corner.

Pretty much everything I've seen for this so far has given the impression that Apocolypse is really designed for the guys with a big collection who really want to play Titans.

I could get 5000 points of Dark Eldar on the table without buying another model, using FOCs. I'm not interested in games with Titans on the table, though. There might be rules in Apocolypse that I'd like to adopt in my gaming group, but the supplement as a whole doesn't seem appealing.

well said

I agree with all above. However, I will still buy the rule book and will be getting a Vindicator Linebreaker Squadron for my army.

Why?

Imperial Fists love their Vindicators. Even in a regular (wacky) game I could still field all three.

The Vindicator is a gorgeous new plastic model, with extra armour bits and tons of FW-copy detail.

The Linebreaker Squadron is available in less than a month, and at good savings per tank. Single vindi boxes will not be out till Christmas.

I have always been a Marine Treadhead. Yes, our tanks my not be as good as the Guards, but they look so much better...:p

In all seriousness though, I have a solid 2000pt force of mechanized marines that can deal with any threat. It will be cool to be able to use the rest of my points to take all my tanks (2 Landraiders, two Predators, and the aforementioned Line-breaker Squadron) and form a mini armoured company to blitzkreig one side of the board.

I couldn't do this in a regular game because the tanks just can't do the job my mech infantry can in a 2000pts game.

Apocalpse give me an additional reason to completing my Imperial Fist Company; I can field them all at once.

Keichi246
10-09-2007, 19:48
As I've said on other threads...

Apocalypse pretty much *is* designed for me.

I was always one to overbuild my armies - to buy sufficient of cool options to give me flexibility when it came to armylist time. So most of my 8 armies are already over 2k.

I'm also a treadhead - I already had an IG tank company and a half sitting around from the old Armored company rules.

I don't get to play too often, but when we do - we tend to play battles ranging in scale from Kill team (blech!) to Combat Patrol (MUCH better) all the way up to 5k on a side.

For me - Apocalypse is a reason to finish assembling/re-assembling and painting/repainting some models I've had sitting around for a while. My actual purchases probbably won't be much more than the gamers edition backpack.

Killgore
10-09-2007, 20:00
Apocalypse is an excuse for me to field my entire ultramarines 2nd company as well as my Damocles Command Rhino!

all the cool extra options like masters of the chapter add extra spice to the game, if Apoc does turn into a novalty it will be a very good one :)


if GW dont continue supporting apoc then they will be shooting themselfs in the foot with a very large boltgun, for they have the ability to keep us interested in our armys for years with little apoc conversion additions



damit now i want to buy a thunderhawk gunship

Iziuth
10-09-2007, 20:17
I like apocalypse. I think it, like CoD, adds flavor to 40k. Off course it's a novelty and nobody is going to play it exclusively but I think for a lot of players it is what has been missing for a long time. I find 40k has become a bit bland with all the tourney mentality going on.

Also having the Stratagems (from CoD and Apoc) adds to 40k as a whole and makes the game more interesting.

Kriegsherr
10-09-2007, 20:23
Mad Doc, I'm going to go out on a limb and make a brave statement:

You like CoD better than 40k because of the level of terrain.

Correct?

It makes sense, most of these types of engagement should be in a built up area. Why not play 40k on a heavily forested board(old jungle fight type theme), or one that represents a mountainous region? Would the loss of the strategems have too much of an overall effect?


Why then not just play a game of CoD? I mean, its the terrain that makes it so unbelievable cool, but its the stratagems that are the real "Gems" in the CoD Book... just because something like that, AND better missions, is what 40k is in dire need of (and yes, I certainly like the CoD Missions much more than the normal ones... there is only one "march into the middle of the field and park your whole army there" mission in the CoD Book, and even there they are at least honest by saying that it is the mission objective to capture the central building, unlike that awful standart quarter mission on alpha level... god I hate those games, especially against some Armies )

BladeWalker
10-09-2007, 22:03
We will most likely just cannibalize parts of the rules and convert them to lower point games (max of 2000 for us probably due to table size restrictions). Buying a gigantic miniature (baneblade or titan) is just too much of an oxymoron, we play a miniature game so that it DOESN'T take up the whole house. :D

So yeah, we will get the book eventually and take advantage of discounted boxes to share. Apocalypse is such a big release, I'm very excited to see what is done with the 40k campaign...

izandral
10-09-2007, 23:30
I'll stick with Epic for a tactically challenging game, and 40k when I want to watch some fun carnage.

i'm not sure because it's been about 7 years the last epic game i played but to me it seems like apoc's shaping to look quite a bit like it and not only for the miniature but the rules also. The only thing i'm afraid is the size of tables since i already find 4x8 rather small when you get over 2000 pts

i think it's better to wait and see the whole rule set before declaring it's just a slug fest

and i remember epic games that where rather large slugfest themselves, but then again that was a long time ago. perhaps it's not the same anymore

Shadow-BOT
10-09-2007, 23:47
In text it seems that tables like 4X6 r 4X8 are small until you actually play on one.
I know this. I used to think a 5X5 was too small for 1500 until I actually played on one.

izandral
11-09-2007, 00:02
i used to always play 4x8 since 2nd edition , and now once in a while i get on a small 4x6. it is small. i did a 4 player 1250 pts each game on a 4x6 and it was rather crowded

i'd like sometime in apoc to try a table actually large enough to use the extreme range weapons (above 48 '' ). if the rules are properly made it could actually be very interresting

robertsjf
11-09-2007, 00:22
Why then not just play a game of CoD?

Variety? Because you get tired of playing with the same terrain?

Chaos and Evil
11-09-2007, 00:46
i'm not sure because it's been about 7 years the last epic game i played but to me it seems like apoc's shaping to look quite a bit like it and not only for the miniature but the rules also. The only thing i'm afraid is the size of tables since i already find 4x8 rather small when you get over 2000 pts

i think it's better to wait and see the whole rule set before declaring it's just a slug fest

and i remember epic games that where rather large slugfest themselves, but then again that was a long time ago. perhaps it's not the same anymore

Nah, Epic's had two new editions since you last played I think, with the latest edition (Armageddon) being a rewrite from the ground up; These days Epic is the single most tactical wargame GW or SG produce (And I've played every one of the current systems).

Frankly, you could try to play Epic's current edition as a slugfest, but since in the standard meeting engagement scenario only one of the five different objective types is based on killing the enemy (The others are based on taking ground or denying ground to the enemy), then you'd probably only take 1 or 2 points at best, while your opponent is free to manuever, claim all the objectives and win.

To tell a short story, my brother faced off with his Imperial Guard infantry horde against a new player who had a Titan Legion.

My bro spent the entire game getting pounded as the Warlord and Reaver class Titans Sustained Fire (Remain stationary and get +1 to hit) against his army practically all game... only the enemy's Warhound titans advanced.

He lost more than half his army during his charge across the board (Most of his formations were ordered to Double move each turn, which gives -1 to hit), while the opponent lost just a single Warhound Titan in a flanking skirmish.

However, my brother still won, 4 points to nill, because while the Titan Legion player was playing Epic as a slugfest, my brother was snapping up objective markers, denying his side of the board to the Titan player, and generally playing smart.

Essentially, in Epic, the most tactical player is the winning player.


Apocalypse, on the other hand, is expressly non-tactical and non-balanced; Apocalypse is about cloverleaf templates, Vortex grenades and Strength 'D' weapons. Apocalypse is a gigantic slugfest. It's silly and it's fun, but it's not a balanced large-scale wargame.

izandral
11-09-2007, 01:18
it would seem the big problem would be scale. again it might have changed but when i played epic it was on 4x6 tables with much smaller units , which forces movement and strategies since not a lot of weapons will easily be in range. might be something in apoc to use bigger tables

Ebolahond , how many points on each side and how crowded was the table ?(how big was the table?)

Shadow-BOT
11-09-2007, 03:19
That sounds nice. So it has a bit for everyone.

Chaos and Evil
11-09-2007, 08:34
it would seem the big problem would be scale. again it might have changed but when i played epic it was on 4x6 tables with much smaller units , which forces movement and strategies since not a lot of weapons will easily be in range. might be something in apoc to use bigger tables

Ebolahond , how many points on each side and how crowded was the table ?(how big was the table?)

Definitely!

A 6x4 board in Epic gives half a kilometre or so between the opposing armies at the begining of the game.

An 8x6 table in Apocalypse still only gives what, 100 metres between the two armies at the start of the game?

A turn in Epic represents 15 minutes of battle time.

A turn in 40k represents what, 10 seconds?

In Epic terms, a game of Apocalypse is just a short-ranged Fire Fight, with tanks, artillery, Titans and aircraft all crammed into the same small area.

Shadow-BOT
11-09-2007, 21:40
I always wanted to play the same game on 5 different tables, representing islands away from each other, possibly 12". 1 square foot per 100 points? So what, 30 square feet per 3000? Thats a 5X6 board roughly?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-09-2007, 22:17
To add to the apparent failings of this supplement, it's marketed as a game requiring an army size that will automatically deter new players. Even with these Apocolypse bundle-deals, building a 3000+ army is a steep initial investment in a game you might not end up liking. There are already plenty of people who find 40K an expensive hobby when building towards a 1500-point force.


To the OP:
Yeah, I expect Apocolypse to be a novelty in most locales.

Even if it meets a pretty good reception, I wouldn't expect more than a couple of the books to sell at any given store and I'd be surprised to see mega-battles take over even half of a store's gaming.

GW will probably spam it like it's the best thing since sliced bread for a year, try to push it for another year, and then give up on it, handing it to their "Specialist Games" people to hide in a back corner.

Pretty much everything I've seen for this so far has given the impression that Apocolypse is really designed for the guys with a big collection who really want to play Titans.

I could get 5000 points of Dark Eldar on the table without buying another model, using FOCs. I'm not interested in games with Titans on the table, though. There might be rules in Apocolypse that I'd like to adopt in my gaming group, but the supplement as a whole doesn't seem appealing.


You might like to know then, that GW have already had triple the Pre-Orders for the Gamers Edition than they expected.

So yeah. One or two. Per store. Total max. Absolutely. Good evidence there as well.

As for how often it's played, once a month, or once every couple of months will do for me. Face it. Hate it as much as you like. Complain about it as much as you like, it's still going to be a blast.

IJW
11-09-2007, 22:25
I just pre-ordered my Apoc book in the local shop, and there were already 7-8 names on the list. And that's for a city with only 100k population. A couple of books per store is WAY out of line.

Necros
11-09-2007, 22:33
I think at first through the holidays and a few months beyond Apocalypse be heavily supported, then it will taper off.. unless people really, really love it's sales blow away all their expectations and give GW a reason to keep making big stuff. It is all about selling models. That's what every new release is about. But this one seems to be much more well received than any new release they've done that I've noticed. So I guess we'll have to see.

I know in my game group we will probably get a few games in but generally we'll be sticking to the smaller 2000 pt and below games. We only meet once a month, so we try to get a few games in instead of 1 big one :)

Adra
11-09-2007, 22:44
So what if it is a money making gimmick...SALE SALE SALE!!!!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-09-2007, 22:46
What I'd quite like to see is Apoc Datasheets included in your Codex on the next cycle. That way you have your catch all book!

Probably won't happen though. But it might.

And I really don't see it going away. Define how GW are meant to support it? By selling 40k. Same as Cities of Death. Support 40k, support Apoc AND CoD. Simple as that really. Now, for their next trick....bring on the Space Hulk rules! Wooooocha!

Chaplain Ark
11-09-2007, 23:21
one of the sweet things from apocalypse is that with two boxes, you can have a full chapter of SM. A whole chapter!!! 1000 men strong!!!! its ******* nuts.

Sorry, lost control of myself.

Shadow-BOT
12-09-2007, 00:00
Uhh, how do you figure with two boxes?

You get 100 guys in the company box,
last I checked 2x100 did not equal chapter.

IncubiLord
12-09-2007, 00:30
I just pre-ordered my Apoc book in the local shop, and there were already 7-8 names on the list.
Yet my local store hasn't pre-ordered any. See, there's this thing called averages...

I know, it's shocking that a generalization may not cover your exact circumstance, but that's the way generalizations go.

As for MDG's proclamation that GW has sold many more than the pre-orders they expected:

Unless you know exactly how many pre-orders were expected and how many stores carry GW product, you've made no point whatsoever. With as many locations that sell GW products as there are, I would be unsurprised to learn that they don't plan on selling half as many pre-orders as there are stores where you can purchase the product. Triple their projection could still be roughly one per store.

You might also want to consider that your country may have a more entrenched market saturation than some others (especially if you live in official-GW-store-around-every-corner England).

Good job not providing a source and then criticizing others for doing as well as you did, too.

Apocolypse may well be great fun for some players. Necromunda certainly was. That's no insurance against it disappearing from most gaming stores, though.

You yourself have already mentioned that the most appropriate way to support this system (formation datasheets in the new codices) probably won't happen. If you're one of the people who are sure this thing is here to stay, and even you don't think it will be supported properly, why would you expect others to be more optimistic?

Years of experience have taught me that GW doesn't support their side-games, and Apocolypse is indeed a side-game (it has its own pricey rulebook and templates).

GW won't decide how well Apocolypse is doing based on 40K sales, they'll look at how many $50 Apocolypse rulebooks are moving off the shelves after the initial "OMG, I gotta have teh latest GW-made fad" sales are done and gone.

You want to know how GW would support Apocolypse?
They'd put out new and updated formation datasheets, plus ammendments to the rumored VDR-equivalent that take into account changed stats, alongside each new codex.

That requires more work than the codex FAQs, and we've all seen how well GW is doing on that front.


If you take offense to my jaded realism, that's fine - just try not to take it too personally. We can't all be chirpy optimists when the weight of evidence is to the contrary of that outlook.


Shadow-BOT:
I think he was referring to the big-crate-of-models rumor that doesn't officially exist in the release schedule yet.

Shadow-BOT
12-09-2007, 00:52
Hmm, never even heard of that rumour. Incubi Lord is probably right in about the support.

scarletsquig
12-09-2007, 01:47
I'd like to play APOC on a CoD table.

With dense terrain and rules for destroying it, the game would have a fantastic feel to it.. levelling most of the city while playing the game.

Throw a vortex grenade into the mix and enjoy the mayhem :)

IJW
12-09-2007, 02:52
Yet my local store hasn't pre-ordered any. See, there's this thing called averages...
Then don't use wording such as 'at any given store' because that specifically excludes talking about averages.

Shadow-BOT
12-09-2007, 03:01
My local LGS did not get any pre-orders either. It pretty much varies from store to store, I know the store a few blocks down is going to do Apoc battles, while ours will usually focus on Cityfight or in store tourneys.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-09-2007, 13:59
The difference between Necromunda, other Specialist Games and Apocalypse is as follows...ahem!

From a purely financial point of view, Apocalypse is well worth continued support. Why? It brings in money. It's a spectacle. It's also something for Newbies to aspire to, essentially, the carrot on the stick 40k used to be when I started out with Space Hulk. Necromunda et al have a very limited financial gain per player. Some might go mental, sure, and buy 3 of every model, but for the most part, since all you need is a single gang, plus some spares to allow for Gang Expansion, thats all most people aspire to.

Apocalypse on the other hand? Well, thats a different matter. Plus, it can arguably lead to people collecting multiple forces. Take an Imperial Guard player. Currently, he's concentrating on his Guard, buying, modelling, painting then playing. He may have considered doing a small Space Marine army just for a break from painting IG. But he knows once his IG are finished, his Marines aren't likely to get a look in.

BUT! With Apocalypse...he can field *everything* he wants to. So that little diversion of Space Marines gains additional worth, as he's more likely to use it.

The same goes for other armies. As a Tau player, Apoc makes collecting a small IG army as possibility, as I can field them as Human allies in Apoc games, as well as using them for smaller, off the cuff games.

Trust me, Apoc is going to be supported. Time will tell if we see additional Datafaxes in Codecies. We may, we may not. But I doubt we'll see an end to it. If they aren't in Codecies, then I can see additional books being released with collated efforts from WD, Forgeworld etc...

Ddraiglais
12-09-2007, 17:29
I think GW's support of Apocalypse depends on us. If they are selling more miniatures and future supplements, then they will make more. If Apocalypse is a hit for a few months and then fizzles, it will go to specialist games or be discontinued. I hope it's the former. I think Apocalypse sounds more fun than I've ever had in 40K.

For me personally, I don't think I'll play 40K anymore. GW is in the process of making the game very bland and flavorless. On the other side is Apocalypse. I can still field basilisks and other artillery with my Iron Warriors. I can use my Legio Mortis models. I can combine those two armies with my traitor guard. I can come up with new stories/fluff about my grand company AND represent it on the table. I can fight against monstrous creatures or an entire company (or even chapter) of Loyalists. There will be windrider hosts, armored companies, Imperial Navy squadrons, entire kabals, and all sorts of armies that can't be represented by 40K. I can't wait to go up against gargants, stompas, aircraft, Imperial and Eldar titans, etc. I hope people make leviathans, ordinatus weapons, land trains, and all sorts of warmachines. Basically I see 40K losing it's flavor, and Apocalypse putting all the flavor (and then some) back into the game. With their current trend in codex making GW almost lost me as a customer. Apocalypse changed all that. Now all of my extra cash will go to GW. I can't wait to start playing Apocalypse, and I hope it lasts as long as the core games do.

setekhite
12-09-2007, 20:21
I, for one, am actually quite excited by Apocalypse, and that's the first time in years I've said that about a GW product.

Yes, it's a 'gimmick' to sell more figures. But in this case it's a good gimmick because it's based around something players were doing anyway. A big, 8-9000 point 40K game is always a great social fixture among friends and always seems to turn into a memorable game. The rules bring into core all of those lovely forgeworld models people have sat around. Best of all, you can play using existing 40K armies if people team up, and the chosen format ensures that all the wacky cool stuff doesn't upset the 'core' 40K ruleset; so, no-one need worry that the new rules will invalidate their existing armies, or even need to buy new models to play. And unlike a new Codex, this development includes everyone.

It's also a welcome step away from tournament-oriented play within the formal rule structure, and the first new game in years to more openly target more committed gamers (which you have to be to amass 5000+ points of an army!).

All in all, I can't see a downside. Many of those criticizing Apocalypse seem to be engaging in the most puerile form of knee-jerk GW bashing; negative comparisons with Epic are a good example. GW already has Epic for those who want a highly tactical, refined game; Apocalypse is about fun, spectacle and narrative. That's all the reason that's needed.

starlight
12-09-2007, 21:26
The difference between Necromunda, other Specialist Games and Apocalypse is as follows...ahem!

<snip>

Well, that certainly *is* one way of looking at it...

However, another is that with the Specialist Games the cost of entry is so low that more people would be willing to try them out. In addition, they would be interested in trying additional Gangs, Warbands, Fleets, et al. The ROI on Specialist Games *should* be one of the highest in GW, and *would* be if they were treated properly. Instead they are forced into the same mould as the Core Games and expected to perform similarly.

You'd think that if the high paid help at GW can rationalise that *GW* doesn't fit the same moulds as larger companies, that they could apply the same logic to their own lines...:eyebrows:

Ah well...

And as for the idea that Apocalypse *...depends on us...*, well that's actually true of every product that GW or any other company makes...

lanrak
12-09-2007, 21:38
Hi all.
Just a pasing thought.
I can see that Apoc will be a popular 'games club event' type game. Eg not 'regular pick up and play' or featured that much in GW stores due to space restrictions.

So surley only ONE copy of the 'Apocalypse rules' is needed per gaming group?

It is a bit pointless if all gamers in a gaming group ALL buy the Apoc rules isn't it?

Or am I missing something....

TTFN
Lanrak.

IJW
12-09-2007, 21:39
It's a nice book with lots of pretty pictures? ;)

Ddraiglais
12-09-2007, 21:56
Not to mention games go faster when everyone is familiar with the rules. Larger games of Apocalypse will take long enough without having to check the rulebook every time someone wants to do something.

DrDoom
12-09-2007, 23:32
I think it sounds like fun (plus I want an excuse to buy another Titan). I have the army for it already, so I might as well. Seems cheaper than starting a new army.

Althanan
13-09-2007, 01:57
Anyone who cant see its just GW trying to sell more models is blind.

No offense, but durrrr...

They're a large corporation who's income thrives on model sales. Ergo, anything they do is geared towards selling more of them.

Anyways.

I think Apoc is going to be a good thing for the game, meself. It'll encourage people to do more stuff with their armies, make more variations and such.

And while it may not be used a ton, it'd be great for clubs and stores to use for a mega-game or the like every few weeks.

And c'mon, who DOESN'T want to see five or six Titans stomping around the battlefield? :D

Shadow-BOT
13-09-2007, 14:27
Honestly, I would love to see 5 or 6 titans on the battlefield, but will I see it? I doubt that I will other than Games Day.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-09-2007, 14:56
Depends whether the arms race mentality kicks in.

The attraction of any unit is, in my opinion, related more or less directly to how often your going to use it. With Apocalypse, you now have an excuse to use Forgeworld stuff, as the limitations are off, meaning you can do whatever the hell you want! Thus, in normal 40k, your highly unlikely to need, let alone fit in, a Titan at it's points value. But, with Apocalypse, it could see use once a month, if not more so....

This could mean one person in your group procuring a Titan, which someone else counters, or compliments, with another.

Apocalypse is very much a social game. Between two players, it would still be fun, but with 4 players, and thus, 4 budgets, the wackier possibilties come to the fore!

Ddraiglais
13-09-2007, 14:57
Honestly, I would love to see 5 or 6 titans on the battlefield, but will I see it? I doubt that I will other than Games Day.

Why not? Even before any news of Apocalypse came out, there were groups of people playing floor battles. I know of at least four anual events in the US, one in Canada, and one in France. I know of a club in Spain that uses a lot of superheavies/titans in their games. One guy over there has had a warlord for years. If you look hard enough there are events and clubs all over that feature titans. With the advent of Apocalypse, you're only going to see more.

http://www.siegeworld.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4

http://www.lvgamersclub.com/

http://www.tralfazsolutions.com/MegaBattle/

http://www.astronomi-con.com/

http://www.frenchwaaagh.org/fwd/medtour6-2007/galerie/index.htm

http://usuarios.lycos.es/inquisitorweb/inqui46.htm

I could post even more links to where a guy built a plaguetower, someone just built a gargant or titan, or there was a huge game that featured four titans blah blah blah. My point is that if you look hard enough there are mega-battles all over. There are even message groups/booards that have guys who will help you scratchbuild a titan, talk about titan fluff, and help you organize your own mega-battles.

Oh, and some of the groups/links I posted host more than one megabattle. For example Siegeworld will have several "small" 20K-30K or so point battles over the course of the year. Their big event last year featured over 100K points total. The LV gamers host several events a year. Matt in NC wants to host several events a year. There are lots of us that try to use our big expensive toys more than once or twice a year.

Bookwrak
13-09-2007, 15:12
Not to mention games go faster when everyone is familiar with the rules. Larger games of Apocalypse will take long enough without having to check the rulebook every time someone wants to do something.

Or what happens if the one guy with the book doesn't show up?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-09-2007, 15:17
Good point.

Besides, it's the size of the Forgeworld books (from what I've been told) and only costs £30. Thats a one off payment of £30 per player. It's not that expensive really, not if you intend to put it to good use. And I don't mean a doorstop. Just do what everyone else does and pinch a couple of bricks from a building site.

Shadow-BOT
13-09-2007, 15:21
Why not? Even before any news of Apocalypse came out, there were groups of people playing floor battles. I know of at least four anual events in the US, one in Canada, and one in France. I know of a club in Spain that uses a lot of superheavies/titans in their games. One guy over there has had a warlord for years. If you look hard enough there are events and clubs all over that feature titans. With the advent of Apocalypse, you're only going to see more.

http://www.siegeworld.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4

http://www.lvgamersclub.com/

http://www.tralfazsolutions.com/MegaBattle/

http://www.astronomi-con.com/

http://www.frenchwaaagh.org/fwd/medtour6-2007/galerie/index.htm

http://usuarios.lycos.es/inquisitorweb/inqui46.htm

I could post even more links to where a guy built a plaguetower, someone just built a gargant or titan, or there was a huge game that featured four titans blah blah blah. My point is that if you look hard enough there are mega-battles all over. There are even message groups/booards that have guys who will help you scratchbuild a titan, talk about titan fluff, and help you organize your own mega-battles.

Oh, and some of the groups/links I posted host more than one megabattle. For example Siegeworld will have several "small" 20K-30K or so point battles over the course of the year. Their big event last year featured over 100K points total. The LV gamers host several events a year. Matt in NC wants to host several events a year. There are lots of us that try to use our big expensive toys more than once or twice a year.

Sorry, I meant around my area, I know people do have battles, but in my area, even though we have 5 stores that play 40k, only 1 person has a titan, but there are 2 people with baneblades.

unheilig
13-09-2007, 15:36
"anyone can see GW is just trying to sell more models"

newsflash: that's what they are SUPPOSED to do. Give ME more reasons to buy MORE models.

personally, i think tournament style 40k is for anal-retentive rules-lawyers. Me... i plan on ONLY playing Apocalypse... maybe only 3k sometimes... maybe more sometimes... but its truly a throwback to the way 40k USED to play.

If i had MY way, it would kill off tournament style 40k. I'd rather go to an Apocalypse Party type event than a stuffy, bitter tournament anyday.

hey... maybe it will give birth to a whole new type of gathering. and yes... we could have been doing it ourselves all along... but to get product support from GW for this kind of gaming is a heartening inspiration.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-09-2007, 15:38
Hmmm....unheilig...you raise an interesting proposition....

Perhaps we could have a Warseer Apocalypse War Day at Warhammer World? Dunno how to organise such a thing, but it would be one hell of a laugh.

Say, 4-6 people per game (totally my own prejudice there!) with match ups as fair and realistic as possible, as many tables as we need/can fit in, knock seven shades out of each other all day, then all off to Bugmans to toast victory/drown defeat?

One_Second_of_Insanity
13-09-2007, 16:29
Well I have been told that each of the apocalypse sets (linebreaker squad, tide of spawn etc) are only a limited run, they have/will produce an amount that GW see demand for and then leave it at that.

I like the idea of Apocalyse ( I am building a traitor warhound titan and a couple of ork stompas) but beyond buying the book as a resource I cant see myself playing too many games, but I am getting into Epic, thats the game for big battles and lots of super heavies and titans

Shadow-BOT
13-09-2007, 16:37
Does anyone know if the baneblade is a limited run?

Bookwrak
13-09-2007, 16:48
It's not. You're not going to recoup the significant cost of making the production line by only doing a limited release.

EarlGrey
13-09-2007, 16:49
Does anyone know if the baneblade is a limited run?

GW would be crazy to have it as a limited run. Making all the moulds for the sprues would have cost them a lot for one thing.
Excpect it to be available forever!

Uchiha Sasuke
13-09-2007, 17:18
beardy lists and ther beardy players annoy me. I cant wait for apocalypse, i quit playing for a while and it is one of the reasons i started again i always did want to play massiv epoint games.

Captain Micha
13-09-2007, 17:30
mmm vulcan heavy bolter macharius..

and baneblade...

Can you have both in one army for apoc? I hope so.. gw couldn't be possibly so cruel to force me to decide to buy one or the other!

Shadow-BOT
13-09-2007, 18:04
You can have whatever you want in one army for apoc.

Keichi246
13-09-2007, 18:13
You can field whatever floats your boat in Apocalypse...

If you want "Force Org writ Large" - go for it!
If you want a "Superheavy Tank Company versus the world" - do it!
If you want the "Legion of Abaddon clones" - well, you'll probably get away with it once... :D

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you *should* do something. Games really should be fun for both players...

Sometimes you just gotta say - "No!" and use restraint. It reminds me of the three "Geneva Conventions" we set up in various games at various points in my "home" gaming club. Three units/weapons were declared so broken that we all opted to never use them again...

1) We had a "Make the nastiest possible 200 tons worth of warmachines possible in Battletech" competition. My solution - 10 ton "Cruise missile" VTOLS. No armor - just an engine, airframe and the rest filled with machine gun ammo. It would charge at max speed (something ludicrous like 22) into the enemy - take the charge damage and then undoubtedly take a crit on the machine gun ammo - doing an absolutely massive ammo explosion in that hex, sufficent to wipe out any battlemech ever created. The rest of the competition conceded imediately when 60 tons of vtols destroyed destroyed 600 tons of battlemech. We then all shook our heads sadly and ceremoniously burned all my notes on their construction.

2) In "Full Thrust" - we had a "ship design wars" going on for a bit. The Wave Gun was a popular choice - until one dreadful afternoon when 3 destroyer class squadrons equipped only with Wave guns annihilated 10,000+ points of ships in 4 turns. It had taken many hours to negotiate the scenarion, create the ships, etc. It took 45 minutes of absolute one sided wrongness to scar us forever. (Think Napoleonic Firing lines vs enemies that HAD to come in one way.The wave gun templates overlapped right where the enemy ships came on board - so every ship was automatically hit multiple times for ungodly damage) Wave guns were added to the Conventions unanimously.

3) In Silent Death - the ship design rules were broken at the bottom end. I designed a 8 point ultra-light fighter that could carry 8 Mk 10 torps - yet still had reasonable speed and defensive value. Considering the next cheapest torpedo armed fighter was about 25 points and carried only carried two Mk 10s... For a hundred points (about the cost of a heavy fighter) I could drop 80 torps on the battlefield. Yes - officially possible - but with so many torps on my side - even a monkey could win the game. The design was outlawed after one massive game saw almost a 800 torps fired.

I guess my point is - just because you CAN do something - doesn't mean you *should* do something - especially in a game with looser rules that is designed to be "more fun". Remember the goal is not necessarily to win - but to HAVE FUN!

Captain Micha
13-09-2007, 18:47
Both of my friends wanna see me field that.. if nothing else to ridicule me for spending so much money on two tanks *snicker*

Shadow-BOT
23-09-2007, 07:19
Does anyone actually know of a person who has 5 liths?

Remoah
23-09-2007, 07:37
Personally, all the guys i know who play 40k have the following mentality:
Get 2-5 guys together and chip in for the Emperors Fist tank COY.

Ever wanted a couple of russies? No problem, just find a couple of other gamers with the same mentality and chip in together, and get those tanks for cheap.

EDIT:

Apoc gives me reason, however, to field a pair of Vulcan Mega-Bolter Macharius tanks in one game, i mean, HEAVY 15!!!!
Shove that in your farseer's pipe and smoke it.

Ghilleman
23-09-2007, 07:43
Apoc looks interesting to me. At the very least, you cna have as much fun as you want with "what if..." lists.

What if 800 grots got together?
What if a leigon of winged Hive tyrants descended from the skies?
How many conscripts can you kill in one game?
And just to be different...lots of deathworld ambushes.

The possibilities are endless. Of ocurse, I'm expecting to see some people abuse the game, but that happens with vannila 40k anyways.

greenmtvince
23-09-2007, 16:59
Having read through the Apocalypse rulebook yesterday at my FLGS's Ard Boys tournament, I've gotta say I think I'm going from the "z0mG Big Battles!" to the "They want me to spend how much on a rulebook for that?" camp.

Basically, nothing really changes. If you've ever played in well run megabattles or have a stack of Imperial Armour books, you're already at like 70% of what Apocalypse really offers. The rest is the special formations: an interesting novelty pushing folks away from the strict bounds of FOCs, and the strategems: like CoD strategems but not urban themed.

Other than that, there's no mechanics to speed up or streamline game play. There's bigger templates that can wipe out more models, which again are more just fun than anything else. On that note though, this is really GW giving the tournament-focused community permission to play games just for fun, in a big hardback book. Okay, I've been doing that, why do I need to buy this book?


Despite the fact that there's nothing really new with the ruleset for players like me, I am still excited about a few things:

-For those of us with more flyers than sense, the good aspects of the IA flyer rules have been kept, and the wonky turn sequence removed. Our pretty models get to stay on the table and be admired. Also, the VTOLs can now be used as Fast Skimmers as well, so it's possible to hide a Vulture behind terrain and pop out for an attack. Kudos here.

-Splash release boxes. Nuff Said.

-Maybe some folks will get away from the idea that an FoC is mandatory in small games too. I'd definitely like to plonk down a Sentinel Recon Company as a formation in my 1500 point games or maybe try some other themed stuff.

-Vortex Grenades are back!

Killgore
23-09-2007, 17:16
not everyone in a gaming group needs to buy the book!

say a group of 6 gamers want to play apocalypse, all chip in £5 each, they then share the book and most likly photocopy bits that they want lol

my biggest fear about apoc now will be how long will they wait to release datasheets for units not covered in the apoc book, im talking about things like Phantom titans, and other races flyers

Lord_Magellan
23-09-2007, 21:03
It's darkly amusing to me when people criticize a company for being out for money.

Pretty much every company on earth is out for money. Income is how it survives. The more income it generates, the more it can increase the quality of its product and the staff alike. Cheaper production values aren't villainy in the offing; sometimes it's the company struggling to make ends meet while reaching for the brass ring of supply and demand.

Is apocalypse a money grab? Of course it is. And there's nothing really wrong with that at all. 40K is also a money grab. So is fantasy. So is everything generated by commercial companies as a general rule. They want to pique your interest in something cool and get you to buy it so everyone can be happy; you can be happy with what you buy, they can be happy with the income that keeps them alive, and in between, some memorable games can take place.

No company is inheriantly evil for wanting to make money or expanding its catalogue in hopes of bringing more in. It's necessarily a sign of gross avarice and corruption and greed. companies are designed to make money and they can't be blamed for obeying that fundamental law of their nature. I've seen trends on forums for every game company alive today attacking them vehemently for what people think are purely greed driven marketing ploys. I've never thought those responses reasonable or well argued. A company that lives like Robin Hood and does a billion things for free at the expense of its operating capital, dies. Frankly, for the enjoyment I get from 40K, I much prefer seeing the company do new products. We've been living it up with Cities of Death, we're looking forward to this big Apocalypse thing with baited breath, I swallowed the new Dark Angels whole (and haven't regretted it, from the new models to the new codex) and to me, new products mean the company is alive and if not thriving, trying to thrive.

That's no sin by me.

L.M.

ChaosMaster
24-09-2007, 02:19
I truly love Cities of Death and so do the friends I play with. We've used it quite a bit and think it's a blast. Now I had the chance to play in an Apocalypse pre-release game on Friday night with a bunch of other GW customers and a half-dozen or more GW managers. We played with about 8 Baneblades (some were variant types including an Ork Skullhamma) on one side of the table and a ton of other models against them including two Brass Scorpions (my own builds), a Forge World Titan, Chaos Land Raider, Predators, Defiler, Tau Hammerheads, Eldar Falcon, Fire Dragons and Wraithlord and more. It was unbelievably fun, even more than I thought it would be and everyone seemed to have a terrific time. The direction 40K has taken ever since Cities of Death was released last year seems to me to be the best it has ever been and then some and I've been in it since the Rogue Trader days. I hope GW keeps this direction as the models for the most part are terrific and the game, if you play with the right folks, is more fun than ever.

LuciusAR
24-09-2007, 10:32
Having seen and had a good read through the book, effectively the 'rules' are about 5 pages, the rest is nothing more than pretty pictures and pointless filler. There is nothing in this book that couldn't have been put into a White Dwarf article, but hey GW cant make £30 from that!

The idea that this is aimed at veterans is nothing short of laughable, and I honestly find it difficult believe anyone with more than a few years interest in the hobby is falling for line that it is. Its aimed at kids with rich parents. Veterans want well though out, balanced, tactical games with genuine strategic challenges. This book is little more than a guide to the sort of OTT Wargfests that seem to happen at GW stores up and down the country on Saturday afternoons and every player over 15 I know hates with a passion.

If apocalypse was really aimed at veterans there would be rules for things such as proper command and control or supply, perhaps rules for suppressing formations, rules to promote grand strategic maneuvering and would have been sold in a manner similar to the Generals Compendium was for WFB a few years ago (now that was a genuine veteran product!) Apoc however equates big games with 'more templates, more dice!!!'. Even the new vehicle rules are simply a dumbed down version of the forge world IA rules. I am honest of the opinion that the work on a apocalypse has been 95% presentation of the rule book and 5% rules development.

This is a style over substance book for a quantity over quality game. The Rules for Big games have always been there. Veterans have always been able to play big games (many including myself have) but with a big pretty book the purse strings of Tarquins parents can be loosened even tighter! ironically honest believe that many parents will see right through this and stop there kids involvement in the hobby altogether, in this respect Apoc may well backfire.

I have no objection to GW making money per say, I do have a problem when this comes at the cost of the integrity and dignity of the hobby. In this respect Apoc may be the straw that breaks the camels back. I'm just glad that WFB still seems to be primarily aimed at Vets otherwise GW may stop getting any of my hard earned money.

Agamemnon2
24-09-2007, 10:44
Hm.

I think this thread has convinced me to go to GW and ask for a refund on my deposit.

As well as smash my interest in playing in the prerelease game on Saturday.

Edit: It's not that I don't want to play Apocalypse. It's that I feel I'm constantly guilt-tripped for wanting to do so. Comments like "no true Veteran hobbyist would want to play it" make me feel like some kind of retard for wanting a Baneblade and a Reaver of my own.

Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 10:51
You might as well play in the Pre-release game, at least then you've tried it.

Personally I'm with Lucius and others. The 40k rules are simple enough to work in large games as is, why do I need a big expensive book to tell me what I already know.

Plus the rumours that it takes as long as a 1500pts game make me shudder, the only way to achieve that for 3000pts+ is to dumb the game down even more, or cram in a load of uber units so that squads are wiped out in a single turn (wow that's was worth buying and painting- wipes squad off board turn 1).

Agamemnon2
24-09-2007, 10:58
Oh, I probably won't be going anyway, my Malcador isn't ready yet. I think I'll just stay at home and paint some Guardsmen, at least that way I know I'll be having fun.

Chaos and Evil
24-09-2007, 11:12
Plus the rumours that it takes as long as a 1500pts game make me shudder

That's because you're looking for a delicately balanced tactical challenge. If you want that, play Epic.

If you want silly-fun (And sometimes everyone does!), then play Apocalypse. It's *all about fun*.

Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 11:22
I do play Epic (or more precisely I have Epic and very few opponents).

It was said somewhere about GW's new sales pitch of 'now with Apoc you can for the first time field Titans, Baneblades and Flyers all on the same board'.

Yeah, Epic's been doing that better and cheaper for many years.

The greatest factor that makes Epic more tactical/strategic than 40k is that very few units have weapon's ranges that cover most of the board. In 40k most units deployed centrally can shoot the entirety of the board- rendering manouever, transports and flanking absolutely pointless.

Anyway, that's another topic. For those that said it, Apoc will be nothing like Epic, Apoc will be the Saturday Kid's Mega Battle with a price tag.

IJW
24-09-2007, 11:32
It was said somewhere about GW's new sales pitch of 'now with Apoc you can for the first time field Titans, Baneblades and Flyers all on the same board'.
'It was said somewhere' is a bit of a shaky foundation for a rant. :rolleyes:

Agamemnon2
24-09-2007, 11:35
Yeah, but its basically accurate. Epic doesn't really exist for GW except when they want to print a square inch in WD saying the only new model for that year has just been released.

Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 11:45
IJW: I cannot be arsed trawling through GW's Website and/or buying WD's to find the Apoc sales pitch.


Epic doesn't really exist for GW except when they want to print a square inch in WD saying the only new model for that year has just been released.

True, GW want to bury Epic but it keeps clawing to the surface. Epic is an annoying voice saying to customers: "Play Apoc sized games, with a normal person's wallet, and actually rules", that they'd sooner stifle.

But TBH if a game is good, it's good regardless of how much attention a company lavishes on it. I can understand the desire for a constant stream of new models (SM's need that 12th Chaplain model..), but I'd sacrifice that for a game with decent rules.

Agamemnon2
24-09-2007, 11:53
But Epic has good rules now. It has had them for ages. The only thing they have left to want for it is good models. Because, let's face it, scratch-building an Imperator Titan is a lot harder than a 40k scale vehicle.

Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 11:59
Aye, I wouldn't complain about new models being released. Just saying having the constant attention of GW isn't necessary to play a game if you enjoy...and can find opponents.

Agamemnon2
24-09-2007, 12:14
True. The local Epic players are pretty nice people, and I understand the same is true pretty much wherever you go. I guess the game rules function as a dork repellent.

But yeah, some Knights, Ordinatii and properly-armed Warlords wouldn't hurt.

lonepilgrim
24-09-2007, 16:06
The Apocalypse book does not say that games are the same length as 1500 pt regular games of 40k. It says the following:

Less than 3000 pts, 1 player per side, 1-3 hours
3000-6000 points, 1-2 players per side, 1 evening
6000-15000 pts, 2-4 players per side, up to 1 day
16000+, 3+ players per turn, up to a weekend


I really don't understand the negativity from the Epic supporters.

Speaking as a veteran 40k player who appreciates the value in all game systems, I won't play Epic instead of Apocalypse. Why? Because I already have lots of 40k armies and figures and I have already made a significant effort and investment of time to learn the 40k rules. Playing Epic would require me to learn an entirely new set of rules and then buy at least one army. Even once I have done that there is still no guarantee that I can play a game because I would need to find another opponent!

A relatively small outlay for me (buying the Apocalypse rulebook) allows me to play the game in a different way. I personally like playing campaign games and the Apocalpse rules will give me a framework for playing the big battles, just like COD gives me cityfight rules and the old Catachan codex gave me rules for jungle fighting.

I own loads of other GW games, and maybe one day I'll get Epic. The world is big enough for both/all game systems.

sebster
24-09-2007, 16:41
The idea that this is aimed at veterans is nothing short of laughable, and I honestly find it difficult believe anyone with more than a few years interest in the hobby is falling for line that it is. Its aimed at kids with rich parents. Veterans want well though out, balanced, tactical games with genuine strategic challenges.

All the veterans that have expressed interest in Apocalypse on this board were mistaken about their own personal preferences? Or possibly wrong?

Come on mate, you aren't the world.


I do play Epic (or more precisely I have Epic and very few opponents).

It was said somewhere about GW's new sales pitch of 'now with Apoc you can for the first time field Titans, Baneblades and Flyers all on the same board'.

Yeah, Epic's been doing that better and cheaper for many years.

Again, Epic is a really solid game that you can pick up and play with a mate. Apocalypse is a spectacle, the game you play a couple of times a year, take a pile of photos and talk about for a year afterwards.

Just because two things have titans doesn't make them in any way comparable.

Mouldsta
24-09-2007, 17:02
Well as an epic player and a 40K player, I'm stoked about apoc - Epic is brilliant in terms of tactics and consequences, to the point where I would say in my opinion it is one of the most tactical games GW makes and I would happily play anyone almost anywhere at epic as it is probably my favourite game.

Apocalyspe however is more breath taking than epic. Having 3 baneblades in epic equates to a small handful of dice and a secured flank. 3 baneblades in apoc is 3 humongous templates, 3 decent sized templates and a million guns, and it makes me giggle like a small child.

You could say that size of templates doesn't mean anything and that they're the same thing. To me that's like saying playing rollercoaster tycoon is the same as being on a rollercoaster - it's just not true.

Regarding how long the game takes, that's entirely down to you - you play to a time limit rather than a turn limit, so it could last 3 hours or it could last 3 weeks depending on what you wanted.

Bear in mind that apoc is designed to be played against friends rather than pick up opponents - this means you won't have to face uber cheese armies because you simply don't play those people. If your friends are the sort of people that insist on using armies like that then you have lame friends.

Regarding whether or not apoc will be played and supported I know that it will be the system used by GW stores to do big games, so all those sat games, tank battles, end of campaign big battles, half term mini campaigns etc will use apoc as it's easier and better. My local store will actually be adding an apoc table as one of it's intro boards, alongside fantasy, LOTR and a regular 40K board. There's also a datasheet in the october WD (terminus LR), but how many more will come out is unknown.

Chaos and Evil
24-09-2007, 18:01
Well as an epic player and a 40K player, I'm stoked about apoc - Epic is brilliant in terms of tactics and consequences, to the point where I would say in my opinion it is one of the most tactical games GW makes and I would happily play anyone almost anywhere at epic as it is probably my favourite game.

Apocalyspe however is more breath taking than epic. Having 3 baneblades in epic equates to a small handful of dice and a secured flank. 3 baneblades in apoc is 3 humongous templates, 3 decent sized templates and a million guns, and it makes me giggle like a small child.

If I could .sig all of that, I would. It perfectly sums up the two game systems, tactical challenge versus silly-fun.

Some days I fancy pasta, some days I really want pizza. :)