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Nikkolas
10-09-2007, 10:26
Was talking with someone about one factor I'd be with the Imperium and not the Tau is that the God-Emperor would protect my soul upon death. I'd rather not be tortured by Chaos in the Warp.

But he said that if you're a human and a good person who believes in Him, it doesn't matter if you're with the Imperium or the Tau. Your soul is still good for salvation by the Emperor.

True or heresy?

pookie
10-09-2007, 10:48
it would be heresy, you cant be part of a the Tau empire and be loyal to the Emperor, iirc they do let you worship who you like, as long as its for the Tau's Greater Good, i know a certain Ordo of the Inq that wouldnt share that view.

Nikkolas
10-09-2007, 11:04
Why can't you worship the Emperor and be part of the Tau?

Perhaps you think the Emperor is displeased with the Imperium or would not agree with what the Imperium is doing. Thus you have faith and love for your God but not a bloated military beaurocracy.

That's not what the Imperium is but some might hold that view.

DantesInferno
10-09-2007, 11:20
Tau "propaganda" (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/background/4/) says you can worship who you want so long as you play your part in the Greater Good.

But the premise of the whole thread is a bit misguided for me. The conventional view is that normal human souls dissipate in the warp after death anyway, so people don't get posthumously tortured by the Chaos Gods whether they worship the Emperor or not. The Ecclesiarchy, of course, pushes the view that the Emperor really is the only path to a glorious afterlife, but that doesn't make it objectively true in the cosmology of 40k.

fracas
10-09-2007, 11:25
by joining up with aliens, you have essentially renounced the Emperor as your lord. there is no salvation for those renoucing the faith, whether you joined up with the godless or the forces of chaos.

Nikkolas
10-09-2007, 12:21
But the premise of the whole thread is a bit misguided for me. The conventional view is that normal human souls dissipate in the warp after death anyway, so people don't get posthumously tortured by the Chaos Gods whether they worship the Emperor or not

I dunno. it's just something I've always heard. That the unfaithful's souls are dommed to the "terrors of the Warp" upon death unless they have faith in the Emperor. Apparently, such common faith will draw souls together in the Warp.

FigureFour
10-09-2007, 12:28
The Ecclesiarchy, of course, pushes the view that the Emperor really is the only path to a glorious afterlife, but that doesn't make it objectively true in the cosmology of 40k.

It doesn't have to be objectively true, it has to be subjectively true to the people who are debating defecting to the Tau empire.

And you CAN'T worship the Emperor and be part of the Tau Empire (Well, you can, but the Emperor will be deaf to your prayers, you heritic scum.). Even if you think that the Imperium has strayed from the Emperor's light (pure heresy) you can't then go and betray the human race by siding with the Xeno filth and expect the Emperor to forgive you. There is no way that the Emperor's teachings allow for humans to be subjects of the Tau Empire and still remain faithful to their Emperor.

pookie
10-09-2007, 12:32
Why can't you worship the Emperor and be part of the Tau?

you can worship the emp, but wether he cares or not is another matter, if you ally yourself with xenos, then you have renounced your right to be part of the imperium. hence you cant worship the emp if your part of the tau empire.

Iracundus
10-09-2007, 12:36
One has to remember that the Emperor for the average Imperial is akin to God for the medieval present: impossibly remote. The Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy with the High Lords leading the whole edifice are akin to the medieval Church and Pope. While technically both are representatives acting on behalf of their divinity, and while the establishment would like the common person to believe they are always right, the common people may well disagree without disbelieving in their god. The common person may also not believe entirely in every last bit of doctrine of the establishment yet still class themselves as a believer.

ryng_sting
10-09-2007, 17:39
Was talking with someone about one factor I'd be with the Imperium and not the Tau is that the God-Emperor would protect my soul upon death. I'd rather not be tortured by Chaos in the Warp.

But he said that if you're a human and a good person who believes in Him, it doesn't matter if you're with the Imperium or the Tau. Your soul is still good for salvation by the Emperor.

True or heresy?

There's little left of a human soul to protect after death. With a few exceptions, unless you're an exceptionally powerful psyker or an Eldar, your soul just evaporates, leaving a sediment of strong emotion behind. A warp-power could, in theory, get to the soul as it enters and welcome it, but it's unlikely, and certainly not practical to do en masse.

Belief in the Emperor and what he represents still has an input in the warp, however, regardless of which regime a person finds himself under.

LordXaras
10-09-2007, 18:48
The only way to serve the Emperor is to strengthen His Imperium and destroy His enemies.

FigureFour
10-09-2007, 18:52
Belief in the Emperor and what he represents still has an input in the warp, however, regardless of which regime a person finds himself under.

Unless said regime runs counter to the Emperor's will. Unless the act of belief in the Emperor has nothing to do with the power of the Emperor himself and instead comes from someone's strength of conviction. But if that was the case, who cares what you believe in because it's all true.


The common person may also not believe entirely in every last bit of doctrine of the establishment yet still class themselves as a believer.

But the Emperor himself was the one who declared war on anything not human. While a person could BELIEVE that they are still devout and beloved in the eyes of the Emperor, despite them betraying the Emperor and his people to blasphemous alien scum, the truth is that they are wretched and unworthy of his sight. He has turned his back upon them and they can never again know his grace, regardless of how much they believe.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 22:44
Yes, this whole "all xenos must die, and humans must rule supreme" idea is what I find most suspect about the Emperor as the supposed ultimate "good guy". Yeah sure, he wants humanity to survive, but does it really need to be at the cost of everything else in the universe, friendly or hostile? :wtf:

And yes I'll admit the majority of aliens in 40K are hostile, but not all. Do the Imperials give a damn? No. I'm reminded of a story in the old BGB:

Not only sub-human civilizations await the explorer. In our years of travel we encountered a single planet that harboured life that owed nothing to the expansion of mankind. Our first envoy to the planet came back reporting a noble civilization worthy of contact. While this heretic was chastised for his blasphemies, we dispatched Confessor Golav who was horrified by the tentacled beasts who greeted him in a most savage fashion. I ordered the planet fusion bombed, but as our weapons were brought to bear, the despicable heathen scum unleashed their planetary defences, totally vapourising the Sword of Retribution and the capital ships Emperor'sMercy and Emperor's Judgement. We were forced to retreat from this baseless attack and sowed quarantine markers before dropping into the Immaterium.


Extract from General Sejanus' 'Breaching the Darkness'
Warhammer 40K: Third Edition, pg 101

That made me smile. Served the self-righteous bunch of xenophobic bastards right.

palmtree
10-09-2007, 23:13
The Emperor is the god of humanity, not the "ultimate good guy". The starch anti-xenos creed does seem like bigoted Ecclesiarchy doctrine more than the actual will of the Emperor but on the other hand it seems unlikely that the Emperor would care what was done to xenos species in the name of humanity. The Emperor's will is for mankind to dominate the stars. That doesn't leave much place for any xenos.

Add to that the constant threat posed by xenos. The Emperor himself fought the Orks and the discovery of new and possibly even more dangerous xenos species since then would make the Imperium predisposed to extreme xenophobia.

Ktotwf
10-09-2007, 23:13
Yes, this whole "all xenos must die, and humans must rule supreme" idea is what I find most suspect about the Emperor as the supposed ultimate "good guy". Yeah sure, he wants humanity to survive, but does it really need to be at the cost of everything else in the universe, friendly or hostile? :wtf:


This is where people just don't get the picture: the Emperor isn't so much a "good guy" as a "leader of the protagonists." Some people apparently can't think subtly enough to understand THAT distinction.

He is a good guy because the Imperium is the primary focus of the story, and wisely, instead of GW giving us a Wink Wink every now and then about how bad the Imperium is, most BL fiction and Fluff takes the Imperium's values as objectively "good" - in other words it takes the morals of the characters at face value.

Thus, while we would probably see the Emperor as a power hungry dictator, they see him as a salvational God (which he does seem to be a God in the more restricted sense; he is VERY powerful, but not Omni-anything.) who represents their morality in its full embodiment - which is that Humanity is to reign supreme over the galaxy over the dead bodies of anyone who objects.

As to the OP: No, no salvation outside of the Imperium - simple as that. To kneel before disgusting Xenos is to be against everything the Emperor stood for - human autarky,human purity, and above all human dominance.

Decius
10-09-2007, 23:29
As far as I know, a human soul simply evaporates upon death (or gets eaten, if there are daemons nearby). That's what I like about 40K, all these people worship the Emperor without knowing that it actually does them no good. So, to answer the OP's question, it doesn't matter because it's pointless either way. However, I'm sure it's a significant matter of contention among the population of a newly annexed world of the Tau Empire. Imperial Loyalists would argue that joining a xeno empire is a violation of fundamental doctrine, mostly because church and state are so closely intertwined in the Imperium. The Gue'la (if my spelling is correct) would maintain that the Emperor is a protector of humanity no matter what. This whole thing reminds me of the catholicism verses protestantism "situation" in European history, the Reformation I think it was called.

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 23:29
This is where people just don't get the picture: the Emperor isn't so much a "good guy" as a "leader of the protagonists." Some people apparently can't think subtly enough to understand THAT distinction.


I do understand this distinction, I just get fed up with the frequent portrayals of him as such. But then, I also understand that most of it is written from the Imperium's PoV...gah, maybe I just lose patience with the mon-keigh too easily, but for some reason it annoys me. :P

Ktotwf
10-09-2007, 23:33
I do understand this distinction, I just get fed up with the frequent portrayals of him as such. But then, I also understand that most of it is written from the Imperium's PoV...gah, maybe I just lose patience with the mon-keigh too easily, but for some reason it annoys me. :P

Well, I hate portrayals that seem to show him as buddy buddy with the Eldar, which is completely ridiculous (like Hitler hanging out at Temple), but c'est la vie.

Drogmir
10-09-2007, 23:41
There's an illusion that Faith in the Emperor is still faith no matter what, but in truth you have to do everything the Emperor wants you to do and die if you cannot do it instead.

DantesInferno
10-09-2007, 23:51
There's an illusion that Faith in the Emperor is still faith no matter what, but in truth you have to do everything the Emperor wants you to do and die if you cannot do it instead.

Or what, exactly?

FarseerMatt
10-09-2007, 23:52
Well, I hate portrayals that seem to show him as buddy buddy with the Eldar, which is completely ridiculous (like Hitler hanging out at Temple), but c'est la vie.

Good grief, you've got that one right. The closest the Eldar and the Emperor came to being "buddy buddy" was when Eldrad came up and said "See look here, mate - you should probably be keeping a closer eye on that boy Horus..."

Did he listen? Did he hell.

EDIT - Ktotwf beat me to it... :P


Or what, exactly?

Or you can take your pick of being shot by the Space Marines, the Arbites, the Sisters of Battle, the local Commissar, or of course your friendly neighbourhood Inquisitor

Ktotwf
10-09-2007, 23:53
Or what, exactly?

Or the Inquisition will show you that there are MUCH MUCH MUCH worse things than death, presumably.

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 00:03
Or the Inquisition will show you that there are MUCH MUCH MUCH worse things than death, presumably.

Yeah, presumably. The implication in Drogmir's post seemed to me to be that faith in the Emperor and acting as the Emperor would want is the only way to prevent your soul being tortured for all eternity by the Chaos Gods, and that seems a little far-fetched to me.

Temporal retribution is what's going to happen.

Tanith Ghost
11-09-2007, 00:04
If the chaos gods can claim souls, I see no reason why the Emperor's faithful are not saved by Him.

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 00:10
If the chaos gods can claim souls, I see no reason why the Emperor's faithful are not saved by Him.

Sure, the Chaos Gods can "claim" souls. But what does that actually mean, given that the vast majority of human souls dissipate upon death?

You have to realise that there's a whole lot of religious propaganda going on on both sides of the isle in the 40k universe.

redbaron998
11-09-2007, 00:15
In the book "Farseer" there is a reference to an old pack between the navigator (dont remember what house) and the Eldar of Ulthwe, it was stated the pack was made in agreement to the Emperor (though he probably would not have announced it pubically) I for one would agree that a person could still have thier salvation fighting for the Tau, I think the High Lords are corrupt and not at all what the Emperor envisioned.

I can see the Medieval Protestant Debabate undertones here

Tanith Ghost
11-09-2007, 00:28
To my mind, instead of eternal tourture by daemons as would happen to heretics, the soul in question would be able to(whatever is left, of the biggest bit) find their way to the Emperor's soul in the warp and join with it. Thus standing by His side for eternity.

dr.oetk3r
11-09-2007, 04:24
Sorry m8, but this is the umpteenth thread on the subject.

...and yes you would go to hell.

Decius
11-09-2007, 05:20
Assuming the Emperor's soul/star child essence could in fact absorb souls like the chaos gods can, can it tell the difference between worship on an imperial world and worship on a Tau world?

khorne666
11-09-2007, 05:44
you can worship the emp, but wether he cares or not is another matter, if you ally yourself with xenos, then you have renounced your right to be part of the imperium. hence you cant worship the emp if your part of the tau empire.

Then surely that would mean that the entire military imerium is no longer part of the imperium? I was under the impression that they had an uneasy alliance with the tau, on the taus side "for the greater good" and on tht of the imperium "we need more soldiers, and for the present these aliens will help us as we all have the same objectives". Much like when the guard allied with the hated eldar to brig down the orks and chaos in the winter assault campaign.

palmtree
11-09-2007, 09:45
The Imperium has no alliance with the Tau and is in direct conflict with them over several worlds. As for alliances of conveniance with Eldar or Tau it is certainly possible, if improbable, for a beleaguered Imperial commander to seek aid against a common enemy. The action of isolated Imperial commanders should not be counted against the Imperium as a whole since even seeking contact with xenos is likely to result in summary execution from the closest commisar.

As for the original question, what would actually happen to the souls of humans living in the Tau empire compared to those living in the Imperium is not answered anywhere in the background and as such is entirely a matter of speculation. What is not speculation is that any Imperial cult practiced in the Tau empire must make a sharp break with the faith as practiced inside the Imperium. The orthodox Imperial cult expressly forbids interacting with xenos and proclaims mankinds supremacy. For those humans now at the mercy of the Tau expressing such sentiments is, well, unwise. I expect such creeds would be excised or reinterpreted into less threatening versions such as proclaiming mankinds spiritual supremacy as something distinct from the earthly supremacy of the Tau.

And then there would be some die-hard Imperial Orthodox humans who see such tamperings with the words of the Ecclesiarchy as the worst kind of heresy, living in the middle of the mostly Tau-loyal congregations.

Iracundus
11-09-2007, 10:12
As I believe some have already mentioned, it must be distinguished between what is objectively true about the Emperor and the souls, versus what the Ecclesiarchy believe happens. If it were merely about what the Emperor wanted, well he didn't want to be worshipped so if going purely by that logic the entire Ecclesiarchy and general Imperium are going against the Emperor's wishes and have been doing so for millenia.

pookie
11-09-2007, 11:02
Then surely that would mean that the entire military imerium is no longer part of the imperium? I was under the impression that they had an uneasy alliance with the tau, on the taus side "for the greater good" and on tht of the imperium "we need more soldiers, and for the present these aliens will help us as we all have the same objectives". Much like when the guard allied with the hated eldar to brig down the orks and chaos in the winter assault campaign.

ok, maybe i wasnt too clear, i mean if you choose to join with another race ( ie support the german army during either WW), rather than Ally ( like we did with the americans in the WW's).

bit clearer?

ryng_sting
11-09-2007, 17:54
well he didn't want to be worshipped so if going purely by that logic the entire Ecclesiarchy and general Imperium are going against the Emperor's wishes and have been doing so for millenia.

The rather cruel irony of 40k. And yet the Emperor was also a pragmatist. Since he is now a warp power, fed by belief and expectation, he might as well put it to good use, since it's one of the few things he CAN do.

Nikkolas
12-09-2007, 07:10
The Emperor can do all.

stormblade
12-09-2007, 07:58
The Emperor can do all.

Except not get horribly mutilated by his progeny:evilgrin:

Nikkolas
12-09-2007, 08:54
It comes back to the whole "can Jesus micorwave a burito so hot, that he himself can not eat it?"

Not that the Emperor is Jesus but it's a question puzzling over the mystery of Omnipotence.

pookie
12-09-2007, 09:30
It comes back to the whole "can Jesus micorwave a burito so hot, that he himself can not eat it?"

Not that the Emperor is Jesus but it's a question puzzling over the mystery of Omnipotence.

no Jesus cant ;)

LexxBomb
12-09-2007, 13:12
dont take this serious


the emperor isn't a god as he isn't completely dead yet. so he cant protect any human soul.
so hurry up cypher and plunge the lion sword into its original owner

dr.oetk3r
12-09-2007, 23:54
Then surely that would mean that the entire military imerium is no longer part of the imperium? I was under the impression that they had an uneasy alliance with the tau, on the taus side "for the greater good" and on tht of the imperium "we need more soldiers, and for the present these aliens will help us as we all have the same objectives". Much like when the guard allied with the hated eldar to brig down the orks and chaos in the winter assault campaign.

It's kinda like how the US and the Soviet Union never attacked each other. They don't have an alliance, just a mutual understanding that if they walk into eachothers territory they are going to pay. I also feel that the Imperium and the Tau Empire are both throroughly crapping themselves at the prospect of a galactic invasion by Tyranids. The Nids' have distracted them somewhat.