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View Full Version : Thousands Sons & GW - I had to laugh



Voodoo Boyz
10-09-2007, 12:59
So last week I went to the GW store to play some games and paint, just like my normal Friday afternoon (I love getting out of work early).

What do I see & hear?

One of the local guys, starting a Chaos army....painting up his new unit of 1kSons.

Another guy comes in, purchases a box of 1kSons, sits down to put them together and chat with the rest of us.

We start talking about how awesome they are now and all that and the first guy brings up the following point: "Yeah, the only downside to 1kSons is that they keep selling out of the box's of them so it's taking me forever to get my stuff together."

And really, I just started laughing. It was a true statement though, ever since the Chaos dex got leaked at most people at the store knew what the new rules were, the Thousand Sons box sets have been out of stock most of the times I came in the store, and I heard someone commenting on wanting to buy a set, but not being able to.

Now this isn't a complaint about 1kSons, awesome new rules, awesome unit now, if people want them I say go for it.

But it so just reinforces the idea that better rules sells more mini's. I wonder how much GW realizes this?

Cill
10-09-2007, 13:05
Im with ya on this one. There was never a single thousand Sons player in my store before the release of the new codex and the boxes had been sitting on the shelf for months.
Now there are 3 people playing them and it seems everyone who already played Chaos are taking a unit of 1k Sons.

Maynard
10-09-2007, 13:07
I went into my local GW the other day. All sold out of TSons. I have to agree with you GW know what's going down

Lord Malek The Red Knight
10-09-2007, 13:19
what you've got to ask yourself though is wheter this is because 1KSons are now (seen as) overpowered (so are attracting more competitive players who want an advantage), or whether they are now balanced (so that players who wated to do them in the past but didnt because they felt they were underpowered are now getting the chance to use them)?

in truth, its probably a bit of both.

something i noticed in the Eldar codex: units that worked well (inc. those that worked too well) were made weaker, and units that didnt work that well were made better. part of me is glad that this prompts people to use the units they wanted to use but couldnt get to work in the past, but another part of me (the cynic) tells me that it is an intentional power shift to get people who already had a competitive army to ditch parts of it and buy new models. my cynical sides also anticpates the next codex/rulebook to shift power in a new direction again, causing the same thing to happen...

~ Tim
p.s. there must be something about the new 1KSons... im planning on grabbing a box too...

leonmallett
10-09-2007, 13:23
I wanted to do a Thousand sons army in the past, but the lack of seeming competitive viability put me off. I'd go with what Tim says, that the unit has been pulled up to have more parity, although I don't by any means think the unit is 'broken'.

Voodoo Boyz
10-09-2007, 13:28
I don't think it has very much to do with 1kSons being overpowered. They're not game winners against top army lists.

What I see is a unit that used to have generally underpowered rules, were very hard to use well in the game, and were pretty unpopular, especially in "undivided" chaos armies, and now got great rules, are an awesome unit on the table, where the models haven't changed at all, but now sell like hot cakes.

I think we all can agree that GW shifts power in a codex from one unit to another throughout releases, but I've never before seen such a profound sales increase before.

I guess it happened with Terminators when the SM dex got released, I'm sure it happened with Eldar & Falcons/Prisms and Harlequins, but I never saw it to the extent where they've been sold out so consistently.

Lemme put it this way, I was out of the US on business for a month, last Friday was the first time I was back at my local GW in a month and the above events happened.

A month ago, when the new dex was leaked but not "out", and people knew the rules, I still saw/heard people come in, looking for box's of 1kSons and they were sold out.

IJW
10-09-2007, 13:33
I'm sure it happened with Eldar & Falcons/Prisms and Harlequins, but I never saw it to the extent where they've been sold out so consistently.
Prisms maybe, but Falcons were already a staple (people complained about them being weaker in the new 'dex), and Harlequins weren't even available off-the-shelf... ;)

EDIT - eBay prices for the old Harlequin models certainly started fluctuating wildly around the time the rumours got firm, then died down a bit once people saw the photos of the new models.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
10-09-2007, 13:37
I don't think it has very much to do with 1kSons being overpowered. They're not game winners against top army lists.
yes, sorry, i Edited my post - i didnt mean that they are overpowered, just seen as such by some people (some of which would find this a good selling point).

looking at the 1KSons: the models look good, you get lots of bits in the box, the fluff is great - i bet all a lot of people were waiting for was a change in the rules.

~ Tim

Voodoo Boyz
10-09-2007, 13:38
Yeah, but I know a few people who started Eldar at our store and aside from the one guy in my own local gaming group who started them (Hi Toxic!), I've not seen an army at play in the store that DIDN'T have 3 Holofield/Stones skimmers in it.

Though a bunch of the people who started Eldar then did talk about getting armies off other people. Since they were "staple" before, I guess it means people didn't need *new* units if other people sold their armies.

1kSons have the advantage of not a lot of people having them, the models being incredibly good looking, and now having great rules.

I dunno why, but the fact that rules driving sales of models has been something I was aware of but I've never seen it in action so directly before that I just find it hilarious.

Reaver83
10-09-2007, 13:43
i think it's fair to say they are now significantly better but i think they're still beatable, i played a 400 point game of world eaters vs 1K sons, stuck my little boys in a rhino and all those wonderfull ap3 shots just bounced off before the close combat mayhem.

Now thats a very vacumeesque setting, but every unit has a drawback, and i think for 1K sons they're not great in close combat

ArtificerArmour
10-09-2007, 13:46
I've always been tempted by 1k sons but their rules were always rubbish. Now they're improved, I'm tempting to try them out, but I'm not so sure about the Tzeetch terminators...:s

Voodoo Boyz
10-09-2007, 13:49
Again, this isn't about them being "unbeatable". Just shoot them with small arms fire and they die like normal T4 3+ save units. Not a problem for Necrons, Orks, or even my own Space Marines to deal with at all.

They are however, still, a VERY good unit that will stand up to dedicated anti-MEQ fire very well (which is common) and at the same time can put a lot of hurt on units with 3+ Saves and especially a Toughness of 3, 4, or 5.

What's funny is seeing the incredible jump in sales from when they had their previous rules to now.

cuda1179
10-09-2007, 13:52
I think that I am one of the few people that has been playign thousand sons for years. I actually found a way to get them to work. GW was right, and army with two wounds does have a lot going for it, lol.

I actually prefer the old rules and I am sorry to see the second wound go. However, the thing that anoys me the most is that Socerers seem to have forgotten how to use a powerfist.:mad: I HATE ripping apart models. I guess in friendsly games I could just claim that they are force gauntlets, but I realy do prefer to be WYSIWYG.

grizzly ruin
10-09-2007, 13:59
But it so just reinforces the idea that better rules sells more mini's. I wonder how much GW realizes this?

Not enough to save the posessed I'm afraid, though they will probably be able to sell on the strength of the models alone.

Then again, with better rules, they'd probably sell even more.

philipc68
10-09-2007, 14:00
I've been playing Thousand Sons since the early 90's and have two squads of the old single-pose models to prove it. None of these fancy-schmancy poseable Sons for me :)

Vesica
10-09-2007, 14:11
I was going to start a thousand sons early last year but decieded with loyalists instead, i am kind of glad now.

Kriegschmidt
10-09-2007, 14:29
yes, sorry, i Edited my post - i didnt mean that they are overpowered, just seen as such by some people (some of which would find this a good selling point).

I think this is a symptom of the same thing as the whining about this and that before any codex comes out - people reacting strongly to a first perception and not putting in the time to really test the validity of it. I mean, it's when you play with an army that you find out how good it is, not when you look at the AP of its weaponry on paper.


looking at the 1KSons: the models look good, you get lots of bits in the box, the fluff is great - i bet all a lot of people were waiting for was a change in the rules.

I agree - I've played ThSons for about three or four years now and have racked up quite a few games. I chose them for the character and fluff, despite the tricky rules, and I've always loved playing with them for the same reason I love playing Deathwing - they're really difficult to use and you have to really think hard about what you're going to do (cos they're too slow to react to you changing your mind :D). So now I'm really pleased that they have a 4+ inv save (not worried about battle cannons any more!) and I may add some more marines to my army (I went for lots of daemons/giants spawns/etc. before).

As an aside, I'm quite worried about having to take psychic tests for my (high number of) sorcerors now! Especially since my regular opponent plays Eldar and can force me to take all my psychic tests on 3D6 with anything over 12 causing a PotW attack!!! But I'll play a load of games and find a way to cope with it.

A truly characterful army with great models and fluff and now interesting enough rules that people have more reasons to buy them.

lord_blackfang
10-09-2007, 14:41
Well duh, obviously stronger models sell better. But as grizzly said, the new Possessed (and Spawn, too) show us that it's really not some sort of GW conspiracy to purposefully overpower new models so they'd sell better.

CitizenNick
10-09-2007, 14:43
I think you also need to point out the opposite trend: formerly pure Thousand Sons players now adding regular CSMs to their lists. I guess GW wins both ways.

superknijn
10-09-2007, 15:27
Damn it, I had plans for a Thousand Sons/Black Legion army, and know it's stigmatised before I've even bought the new codex.

Sureshot05
10-09-2007, 15:30
looking at the 1KSons: the models look good, you get lots of bits in the box, the fluff is great - i bet all a lot of people were waiting for was a change in the rules.

I fall into this camp as well. I've always had a soft spot for them, but lacked a spot in my Chaos Undivided for them. With them moving firmly into troops, its opened up the chance to add a unit to the army, which is really pleasing as they have such great background (though I am notoriously bad with elite units).

Raven1
10-09-2007, 15:34
GW knows exactly what they are doing. im just glad, that I didnt decide that I would do an 1ksons army. With the peoples getting there's now holy cow.

Isolation
10-09-2007, 15:53
*blows the dust off his Thousand Sons army*

Now only if there was actually a store nearby to play....

TheDarkArg
10-09-2007, 16:49
As another longtime Thousand Sons player (I even have a full favored squad of rubric terminators) I was blown away by the number of new kids starting in on my legion this weekend. I stopped by to pick up my pre-order army w/ codex and three grey and pewter 1k sons armies were staring back at me. One of the staffers would have been building his if it hadn't been for the baneblade that the store needed built.

It's fairly amusing to see how folks flock to the new rules even without having played with them yet (US codex first showed up this week with army boxes).

I shudder to think how all the marine gunlines I see are going to handle my new forces, especially given how badly my 2wound wonders used to maul them...

But if GW was trying to get more Tzeentch players, its sure working. And I'm sure adding to my forces since I can now use a lot more units and still keep the cult feel to my army.

redbaron998
10-09-2007, 16:55
I cant really blame the Thousand Sons players now day, alot of people (including myself but I am builing Eldar) love the TS fluff and models, but didnt like the rules. Now the rules are good (though expensive, yet deserving of that expense) so many players who have had TS dreams are now acting on them,

Eldarion
10-09-2007, 16:55
GW have always known Rules sell minitures, An example is fantasy. The High elves are one of the most popular or maybe the popular army. Want to sell loads of them? give em the " always strike first rule". Also look at the chaos special charectors they are now dirt. Everyone wants them in thier armys.

paspinall
10-09-2007, 17:15
Not enough to save the posessed I'm afraid, though they will probably be able to sell on the strength of the models alone.

Then again, with better rules, they'd probably sell even more.

You know, I played my first Chos game with the new Codex the other day, my brother is the normaly chaos player but I am getting a small force for using when I play with some other friends, anyway my Posessed were the best unit I had !!!!!, ok it was against Tau but they ripped through 3 squads and a tank taking only 3 casualties total.

Oh and as for the Thousand sons, well my small army is going to end up rather large from the number of models I love, I want each of the four cult squads plus normal stuff and god worshipping termies and...

The_Outsider
10-09-2007, 17:58
Inv. save and ap3 bolters? nope never once suspected 1ksons would become popular.

10 says most of the players who have started 1k sons because ofthe new codex have done so because of the rules, not that they actually like the 1ksons as a fluff force.

Latro_
10-09-2007, 18:44
dunno what the fuss is about, they're pts expensive (both basic TS's, plus the sorcerer really racks the cost up) and against guard,nids,orks etc ap3 means bum all really.

they're nice but i would of thought vindicators, daemon princes, mail order wings and tenticle pink would be the main out of stocks :P

Grazzy
10-09-2007, 18:59
Thousand sons are definitelt a ''cool'' army (the fluff and models are generally accepted as being pretty awesome) and the improvement of the rules has just meant that everybody who had them before wants more (as they start to play with them because they are more competative) and people who didn't have them because they wern't powerful enough has started collecting them.

Sons of Russ
10-09-2007, 19:05
So last week I went to the GW store to play some games and paint, just like my normal Friday afternoon (I love getting out of work early).

What do I see & hear?

One of the local guys, starting a Chaos army....painting up his new unit of 1kSons.

Another guy comes in, purchases a box of 1kSons, sits down to put them together and chat with the rest of us.

We start talking about how awesome they are now and all that and the first guy brings up the following point: "Yeah, the only downside to 1kSons is that they keep selling out of the box's of them so it's taking me forever to get my stuff together."

And really, I just started laughing. It was a true statement though, ever since the Chaos dex got leaked at most people at the store knew what the new rules were, the Thousand Sons box sets have been out of stock most of the times I came in the store, and I heard someone commenting on wanting to buy a set, but not being able to.

Now this isn't a complaint about 1kSons, awesome new rules, awesome unit now, if people want them I say go for it.

But it so just reinforces the idea that better rules sells more mini's. I wonder how much GW realizes this?


Don't worry, it will be even funnier when people start moaning about how badly TS were nerfed in 5-6 years time...

The ones collecting for fluff and character already know GW's modus operandi.


Anyone who maxes out their troops with lots of TS just for their newfound potency deserves to get hit hard by the nerf-bat.:cheese:

Askari
11-09-2007, 00:21
Thousand Sons are the only Chaos Troops they still sell at GW Manchester hehehe.

But indeed, I agree with the general consensus.

They are great models, great fluff and now being a powerful unit, they would of course sell like freshly cooked... pancakes =\

=)

Shalamar
11-09-2007, 01:00
I haven't played seriously much in a couple years. Tau and 1ksons.

I love my thousand sons. 2 wounds, a couple rhinos, and my pre-heresy FW landraider, with 1kson doors and chaos tracks.

Now I'll likely be accused of jumping on the bandwagon. Alas.

ReDavide
11-09-2007, 01:04
10 says most of the players who have started 1k sons because ofthe new codex have done so because of the rules, not that they actually like the 1ksons as a fluff force.

No one is claiming that the increase is due solely to Sons having great fluff. The people who buy minis just for fluff have been buying Sons for years.

But if you go back into the depths of Warseer and look at those silly polls that pop up almost every week that act as popularity contests among the various Chaos gods/primarchs/legions/whatever, you'll see that Tzeentch usually won them for ages before the new changes were known.

There has been a pool of closeted Tzeentch-lovers who only now can satisfy their secret desires now that decent rules have come out.

Askari
11-09-2007, 01:05
Tau and 1ksons.


That seems to be a scarily common combination of 2 different armies that people collect.

By people, I mean me, or I as would be the case.

Shalamar
11-09-2007, 01:07
That seems to be a scarily common combination of 2 different armies that people collect.

By people, I mean me, or I as would be the case.

I started with Tau, and picked up the 1ksons later. I like the vast differences in the two armies. I did favour the sons over the Tau, but I need to paint up and play Tau again.

Rioghan Murchadha
11-09-2007, 03:21
Heh.. glad that I've been playing em for a while now, so I already have boatloads of rubric marines. It's just sad to see a once proud legion relegated to ZOMG!!! AP3 BOLTERS FOR TEH WINZZORZ!!1ONEONE!

(Before anyone bothers.. I'm familiar with Gav's bullsh!t about how apparently the black legion can create its own rubric marines one at a time.. It's exactly that.. crap.)

jackveneno
11-09-2007, 03:55
the new popularity of 1k sons cannot be attributed to anything else other than the new rules, i need to get this rant off of me as many times as i can.

i like in NYC, here we have 3 GW stores and 1 independent retailer (all in Manhattan) and since the codex started popping up they are having a hard time keeping those boxes on the shelves.

these are all the unimaginative, power gamer cheese balls that expect to get by on rules alone and not the tactics that they are supposed to employ.

Occulto
11-09-2007, 04:00
There has been a pool of closeted Tzeentch-lovers who only now can satisfy their secret desires now that decent rules have come out.

I'm in that camp, but it's got nothing to do with what they've done to the 1ksons.

I like the ability to field a tzeentch aligned army that isn't pure 1ksons.

Rioghan Murchadha
11-09-2007, 04:19
I'm in that camp, but it's got nothing to do with what they've done to the 1ksons.

I like the ability to field a tzeentch aligned army that isn't pure 1ksons.

That's one of the good things about the new codex. I'm glad for people who can field god devoted armies that aren't the 4 dedicated legions. I do however, lament for people like me, who now have to use counts as, and poor substitutes to represent said legions. The Thousand Sons have gone from a once proud Traitor Legion to a single troop choice.. :cries:

And please don't bother replying with 'you can still make legion lists blah blah blah.'... No sorcerors in my terminator squads without wasting an HQ choice, no rubric terminators (If they drop the flag, they ain't tzeentch any more), no chosen sorcerer squads, no posessed sorcerer squads, no better at psychics than an imp guard sanctioned psyker.. just get 1 extra power a turn. etc. etc.

Reflex
11-09-2007, 04:24
alot of 1k sons players i know, that had them before they were 'cool' feel cheated, because the 1k sons had this awsome club style army where it was exclusive and no one else had 1k sons, they were a bit of a rare army. but now everyone wants a slice of the cake.

i was going to start a 1 k sons army about 6 months ago, glad i didnt. i am thinking of doing some salamanders, why, beacuse not alot of people play them.

but yes, i think GW has won over alot of gamers with the new sons rules. although, i can say with confidence that the sons will struggle against guard a bit.

Occulto
11-09-2007, 04:32
I do however, lament for people like me, who now have to use counts as, and poor substitutes to represent said legions. The Thousand Sons have gone from a once proud Traitor Legion to a single troop choice.. :cries:

And please don't bother replying with 'you can still make legion lists blah blah blah.'... No sorcerors in my terminator squads without wasting an HQ choice, no rubric terminators (If they drop the flag, they ain't tzeentch any more), no chosen sorcerer squads, no posessed sorcerer squads, no better at psychics than an imp guard sanctioned psyker.. just get 1 extra power a turn. etc. etc.

Seriously. Was that really necessary? :rolleyes:

We've got it. Legion players are p***ed. Repeating it ad nauseum ain't doing anything except derailing threads.


alot of 1k sons players i know, that had them before they were 'cool' feel cheated, because the 1k sons had this awsome club style army where it was exclusive and no one else had 1k sons, they were a bit of a rare army. but now everyone wants a slice of the cake.

Welcome to DW just after the plastic terminators were released. :p

Though I've got to say that was particularly amusing when the DA codex was released and all the assault cannon spam junkies were gnashing their teeth. They took a cool army, abused the crap out of it, turning it into a lame one trick pony in the process, then got pwn3d shortly afterwards. :D

Merreck
11-09-2007, 04:35
alot of 1k sons players i know, that had them before they were 'cool' feel cheated, because the 1k sons had this awsome club style army where it was exclusive and no one else had 1k sons, they were a bit of a rare army. but now everyone wants a slice of the cake.

i was going to start a 1 k sons army about 6 months ago, glad i didnt. i am thinking of doing some salamanders, why, beacuse not alot of people play them.

but yes, i think GW has won over alot of gamers with the new sons rules. although, i can say with confidence that the sons will struggle against guard a bit.

I jumped around in my loyalties to the gods. After reading Liber Chaotica I knew Tzeentch was my favorite, but I couldn't in good conscience spend money on a list that was gimmicky in that it wasn't quite finished. So I thought I was going Deathguard, bought some models ( i already owned a ton of black legion) and then I saw the new rules when I was over in Ireland and I was like :p

Here's my list, if I can eke out 3 more points I can have an interchangable heavy support choosing from defiler, vindi, 5 HB havocs or 2 more oblits

Heavy Support
225- 3 Oblits
115- Pred- Autocann, heavy bolters, havoc launcher
145- Vindi- Possession
(485)

Troops
558- 18, two squads of 9 Thousand Sons,both with asps of course-
warptime, melta bombs, icon
195- 15 Generic Demons in groups of 8 and 7
100- 2 Rhinos with extra armor
(853)

Elites
310- 6 Terms- 1 Asp with L-claws, 1 RAC/chainfist, 1 combi/chainfist,
3 power/combi
(310)

HQ
145- Lord - DW MoT
205- Prince - MoT wings, warptime, wind of chaos
(350)

1998 points model count 48


:D

Leonidas300
11-09-2007, 06:59
All it means is that there are a lot of power armored opponents out there.

billr
12-09-2007, 02:18
I have had 18 of them in the basement for awhile now. I wanted to play with them a bit in the past but never did much 40k. I had no idea what the new rules were like, and a couple of weeks ago I started base coating them (have the new foundation colors was a factor there too ;) ).

So anyway, I was in the game store the other day and I slid open the battle box and carefully opened the book so as not to break the binding to the Tzeetch section and began to giggle my silly little butt off.

I have a bunch of old (metal) "regular" chaos marines. I might just paint up a couple dozen of them while I'm at it. (click here for evil laugh) (http://members.tripod.com/~JB5353/looneytunes/muhaha.wav)

Meticulous
12-09-2007, 02:47
It's ironic; before, I really wanted to run a whole army of Thousand Sons, but the relative lack of options combined with the annoyance of a new gamer plus a partly-metal army kept me away.

Now, that the list is chock-full of options and I'm savvy enough to be able to assemble part-metal troops with little headache, the lack of specific wargear and whatnot drives me away. I really do hope for a Codex: Cult Legions, or a WD list, or something to pique my interest again.

That doesn't mean I won't convert some Rubrics with DA robes and metal heads/arms, of course. I'm not that idealist XD.

Tzeentch Loyalist
12-09-2007, 03:11
I have a 1k sons army and am a little peeved over the new rules. Tzeentch just needed some new options as well as some new psychic abilities. My army was pretty strong. It couldn't beat necrons, but I kicked the tar out of guard, eldar, and nids. Hell, I even beat a khorne player (stupid collars of khorne). I'm going to miss my flamers, however, the 4+ ward save is nice, especially on termies, and I can now have regular marines in my force that aren't slow and can have an effect in the assault phase. It's just a shame that my converted daemon prince on a disc, rubic termies w/ asp sorcerer, and converted dreadnought will be put to waste. Maybe just the dread, I can still use my daemon prince and termies, just not in the same manner. Oh well, time to learn new tactics.

Heres a link to my Terminator Champion and Daemon Prince
http://www.coolminiornot.com/165298
http://www.coolminiornot.com/148638

dcikgyurt
12-09-2007, 03:16
It's just a shame that my converted daemon prince on a disc, rubic termies w/ asp sorcerer, and converted dreadnought will be put to waste.

Your daemon prince is usable, you can by wings for your DP, and that is as good a way as any to represent it.

toxic_wisdom
12-09-2007, 03:34
...Yeah, but I know a few people who started Eldar at our store and aside from the one guy in my own local gaming group who started them (Hi Toxic!), I've not seen an army at play in the store that DIDN'T have 3 Holofield/Stones skimmers in it...

I'll have that friendly non-skimmer list ready for Saturday.

And I guess its a good thing I've had my KSons for a while now, since most of the newer Tzeentch players are having a difficult time finding the boxed sets: btw saw another new player at the local gw tonite painting the boyz in blue, yellow, and gold.

As for the conspiracy theory - new dex new rules boost sales - I'd like to believe there's something concrete about it as it will give my DE army something to smile about: Scourges and Hellions will rule the battlefield...

Adra
12-09-2007, 08:50
part of the issue with selling out of 1k sons is probably to do with GW stocking very few of a low selling item. That will no dout change.

Scythe
12-09-2007, 09:50
no better at psychics than an imp guard sanctioned psyker.. just get 1 extra power a turn. etc. etc.

You conveniently forgot your +2Ld and the craptacular randomly rolled power sanctioned psykers get?

Yeah, sanctioned psykers walk all over Chaos Tzeentch sorcerers now since they lost auto-cast...:rolleyes:

Reflex
12-09-2007, 10:30
its going to be funny seeing pure 1k sons armies or majority 1k sons armies take on armies like Orks, Nids and Guard, even eldar. there bolters become almost standard again.

although the new sons are powerful. i saw a 750 (or maybe 800 point... not sure) point game today. it was something like 18 or so sons and a sorceror + a predator or something take on a space marine army. the blood angels got absolutly pooned in there attempt to charge the boys in blue.

when you have 16 bolters rapid fire it really hurts.

Voodoo Boyz
12-09-2007, 11:39
I'll have that friendly non-skimmer list ready for Saturday.

And I guess its a good thing I've had my KSons for a while now, since most of the newer Tzeentch players are having a difficult time finding the boxed sets: btw saw another new player at the local gw tonite painting the boyz in blue, yellow, and gold.

As for the conspiracy theory - new dex new rules boost sales - I'd like to believe there's something concrete about it as it will give my DE army something to smile about: Scourges and Hellions will rule the battlefield...

Oh I'm well aware of how new Dex's rules boost sales. I'm already planning on converting some of my existing Slugga Boyz into Shoota Boyz, and any new ones I get will be armed with Shootas instead of Choppas. :D

And I shall be there waiting to play the Shadow Magistrate, I'll be putting the Necrons away for this one, you'll have the honor of being the first person to play the Ultramarines in a long time. ;)

*goes to figure out 2k points of Ultras*

Captain Micha
12-09-2007, 14:43
I've always like the 1k sons, but I steered away from them once I saw their rules. I don't need uber rules for an army to have fun with it but I do enjoy at least being competitive.

Modelling wise I always wanted them, just like I want a little snippet of every army every now and then. I plan on owning some sisters repentia for much the same reason.

Now that there are actual viable rules for them, should I ever turn chaos I would already have some of the purchasing out of the way!

byteboy
12-09-2007, 17:23
Im with ya on this one. There was never a single thousand Sons player in my store before the release of the new codex and the boxes had been sitting on the shelf for months.
Now there are 3 people playing them and it seems everyone who already played Chaos are taking a unit of 1k Sons.

Cill: I too was the only Sons player for years & those Sons boxes had dust on them at my local store till this new book came out. Like you, I now see at least 3 people playing them. Funny that GW beefs up rules for certain models to make $.


That's one of the good things about the new codex. I'm glad for people who can field god devoted armies that aren't the 4 dedicated legions. I do however, lament for people like me, who now have to use counts as, and poor substitutes to represent said legions. The Thousand Sons have gone from a once proud Traitor Legion to a single troop choice.. :cries:

And please don't bother replying with 'you can still make legion lists blah blah blah.'... No sorcerors in my terminator squads without wasting an HQ choice, no rubric terminators (If they drop the flag, they ain't tzeentch any more), no chosen sorcerer squads, no posessed sorcerer squads, no better at psychics than an imp guard sanctioned psyker.. just get 1 extra power a turn. etc. etc.

Rioghan Muchadha: Yeah, I too have to play "counts as" alot for my army now. At times I forget what has what & I really need my opponents to be patient while I figure things out. True its written down, but sometimes you really get into the battle & space out.


alot of 1k sons players i know, that had them before they were 'cool' feel cheated, because the 1k sons had this awsome club style army where it was exclusive and no one else had 1k sons, they were a bit of a rare army. but now everyone wants a slice of the cake.

i was going to start a 1 k sons army about 6 months ago, glad i didnt. i am thinking of doing some salamanders, why, beacuse not alot of people play them.

but yes, i think GW has won over alot of gamers with the new sons rules. although, i can say with confidence that the sons will struggle against guard a bit.

Reflex: Yeah, I feel like them: cheated. No longer do I feel like the "oddball" or "black sheep", underestimated & then people realize that tactics win games and wonder how they lost to me. I really don't feel comfortable playing by the norm. I do know though, that it is super unlikely anyone will have my paint job/paint since its out of production & no longer exists. Gotta love color changing chameleon paint to show just how much Tzeentch loves you. :cool:

Lindworm
12-09-2007, 17:40
I don't know why thousand sons were so "bad" before, I mean, a squad of chosen could all just run into close combat, yell "lol touchy touchy" and start turning EVERYONE into horrible chaos spawns... which then started writhing about and smashing anything that didn't reek of life-threatening mutation.

...That's all you'd need for chaos!

Ravenous
12-09-2007, 17:48
So last week I went to the GW store to play some games and paint, just like my normal Friday afternoon (I love getting out of work early).

What do I see & hear?

One of the local guys, starting a Chaos army....painting up his new unit of 1kSons.

Another guy comes in, purchases a box of 1kSons, sits down to put them together and chat with the rest of us.

We start talking about how awesome they are now and all that and the first guy brings up the following point: "Yeah, the only downside to 1kSons is that they keep selling out of the box's of them so it's taking me forever to get my stuff together."

And really, I just started laughing. It was a true statement though, ever since the Chaos dex got leaked at most people at the store knew what the new rules were, the Thousand Sons box sets have been out of stock most of the times I came in the store, and I heard someone commenting on wanting to buy a set, but not being able to.

Now this isn't a complaint about 1kSons, awesome new rules, awesome unit now, if people want them I say go for it.

But it so just reinforces the idea that better rules sells more mini's. I wonder how much GW realizes this?

Just a bit of a side note here but why the hell dont they just order them off the website? Or any website?

Straight to there door and you get everything you want would make more sense then waiting a week, driving all the way there and then finding out you have to cherry pick the boxes. Or you can go to the store and get them to order it for you and keep them aside, most indy stores will do that.

And on a more on topic post, my store is sold out of Daemon Princes, Sorcerers, and the 3 boxes of thousand sons.

Voodoo Boyz
12-09-2007, 17:55
Order off the website and pay $8 to ship it? Don't think so.

Order off other sites? Probably the same reason I don't do *as* much buying from other sources now that I go to the shop on a weekly basis. I pay where I play, simple as that.

grickherder
12-09-2007, 21:55
Order it from thewarstore.com with 20% off and $5 to ship it?

W0lf
12-09-2007, 22:09
Im sorry but everyone buying them because they are broken. simple as.

Why do you think IWs were so popular last codex and 1k sons are now???

everyone hears 'ap3 boltguns, 4+ inv' and jumps on the band wagon.

Thoth62
12-09-2007, 22:10
To be honest, I'd still rather drive the 20 minutes to get to the store and pay for it there. I don't make a lot of huge purchases, and to just save a couple bucks at the warstore doesn't make much sense to me.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
12-09-2007, 22:22
Im sorry but everyone buying them because they are broken.

everyone hears 'ap3 boltguns, 4+ inv' and jumps on the band wagon.
do you mean people think they are broken, or because they really are (in your opinion)?

~ Tim

Thoth62
12-09-2007, 22:27
I think everyone is buying them primarily because of the rules change. I wouldn't say they are broken, or anything, but they are definitely better, to the point that they have become much more popular than they ever were.

Knowing this was going to happen 3 months ago, I told everybody who would listen that I've played TS for several years and thus no one should ever accuse me of using them because of the new rules.

Rioghan Murchadha
12-09-2007, 22:32
You conveniently forgot your +2Ld and the craptacular randomly rolled power sanctioned psykers get?

Yeah, sanctioned psykers walk all over Chaos Tzeentch sorcerers now since they lost auto-cast...:rolleyes:

Yay for hyperbole...

However, it's not so much the loss of autocast that bugs me, as the vulnerability to perils all of a sudden...

Realistically, you could argue that Chaos Sorcerers ARE perils of the warp.. When a god is granting you the ability to smite his/your foes, he's not all that likely to accidentally stick a spike in your brain..

foehammer888
12-09-2007, 22:32
I have to say I saw the same thing happen with 3 of the 4 god-specific units at stores in my area. As they were now "troops choices" for any army, and each had a very defined use, lots of old/new chaos players bought ksons, plague marines, and emperor's children. Fewer people bought beserkers because I think many people have them already (as they come in most army boxes and battleforces for chaos).

1ksons have lots of disadvantages. One 1ksons player came in and agreed to play a game with another person, neither knowing the other's army. Once they set up the table:

1st guy says - "ok, by the way, I play a 1ksons army"
2nd guy says - "cool, I play Deathwing"
1st guy says - "crap, well there goes my army's primary advantage"

Against 2+ saves or 5+ saves, ksons are really just expensive marines with a 4+ invul.

Foehammer

Lord Malek The Red Knight
13-09-2007, 00:27
However, it's not so much the loss of autocast that bugs me, as the vulnerability to perils all of a sudden...
the same sort of thing happened to Farseers (barring Eldrad) in the new Codex (except the difference is that Farseers used to take a single wound on a D6 roll of 1-3, now the suffer Instant Death on a roll of 1-2).

maybe GW are making a conscious effort to tone down pyskers (in the same way they toned down transports with the Emergency Disembarkation rules)?

~ Tim

Rioghan Murchadha
13-09-2007, 03:22
the same sort of thing happened to Farseers (barring Eldrad) in the new Codex (except the difference is that Farseers used to take a single wound on a D6 roll of 1-3, now the suffer Instant Death on a roll of 1-2).

maybe GW are making a conscious effort to tone down pyskers (in the same way they toned down transports with the Emergency Disembarkation rules)?

~ Tim

Only problem with that, is that It's not like Tzeentch psykers were anything overpowered in the first place.. All they did was act like the heavy/special weapons that their squads weren't allowed to take. (Still do in the new dex too).

I know farseers suffer perils in the new dex, but don't Eldar Warlocks or whatever the lesser guys are autocast? (Which is REALLY odd..)

It also would bug me less if Typhus wasn't a better psyker than Ahriman..

zendral
13-09-2007, 04:48
maybe the sons got better, but I certainly don't think they are broken. I do have qualms with one thing however. I havn't heard a peep so far about runes of warding. I truly think this is a broken peice of equipment against an army that already has a ton of psykers and is now casting them at twice the rate.

In short, I have had 2 games against eldar where they had the runes. I never thought I would see so many heads explode in my army. I know ork psykers explode like zits....but this "roll on 3d6, anything over 12 is still perils of the warp" is really painful. I wouldn't mind it so much if we had something to retaliate with.

Scythe
13-09-2007, 10:12
I think everyone is buying them primarily because of the rules change. I wouldn't say they are broken, or anything, but they are definitely better, to the point that they have become much more popular than they ever were.


Mah, even that is relative. Against pure horde armies, they actually got worse. AP3 and a 4+ inv are worth less as 2W were against those kind of armies. Of course, everybody plays space marines, so that problem is small. :p

But I expect their popularity to dimish again with the upcomming Ork and Daemons/traitors codexes (which are horde based pretty much).


However, it's not so much the loss of autocast that bugs me, as the vulnerability to perils all of a sudden...

Realistically, you could argue that Chaos Sorcerers ARE perils of the warp.. When a god is granting you the ability to smite his/your foes, he's not all that likely to accidentally stick a spike in your brain..

Like said, everyone is becoming quite vulnerable these days. Tough I agree it is kind of strange warlocks do not need a test, farseers are still instant killed if they fail their save. The new standard librarians in the DA and BA codexes are 'only' Ld9...

Any ability to autocast is dubious in my opinion. Chaos shouldn't be above this. Chaos gods do care little about their mortal followers. If a chaos sorceres taps into his patrons power, he might just as well be overwhelmed with power as any other guy. And believing in one 'god' does not protect you from Daemons of another god or other warp entities. Remember, strong psykers can attract anything in the warp, not just their gods attention.

Sorry if I came across as harsh in my first reply. I understand that it is a bit annoying that Tzeentch lost an ability which set its psykers apart from others. However being able to use 2 powers is a conciderable advantage in my opinion (and Ahriman is quite the psychic beast now).

Kriegschmidt
13-09-2007, 10:36
Sorry if I came across as harsh in my first reply. I understand that it is a bit annoying that Tzeentch lost an ability which set its psykers apart from others. However being able to use 2 powers is a conciderable advantage in my opinion (and Ahriman is quite the psychic beast now).

But am I right in thinking that squad-leading Aspiring Sorcerors can only take one power? Whereas before they could take a (familiar was it?) and choose a second power.

Scythe
13-09-2007, 10:43
Well, aspiring sorcerors also come with a force weapon, which counts as a power when used.

And previosuly, you had to sacrifice a familliar to use a second power if I recall correctly.

Snowdog
13-09-2007, 10:50
i've gotta tell ya, as THE ONE 1K in these parts, part of me wants to drop them just becasue their too good.

whatta be peeps spam units of 9 and do no renegades
yeah, that fits the fluff :rolleyes:

Kriegschmidt
13-09-2007, 11:04
Well, aspiring sorcerors also come with a force weapon, which counts as a power when used.

And previosuly, you had to sacrifice a familliar to use a second power if I recall correctly.

I suppose there is the force weapon. But then most of the time the sorceror won't be fighting multi-wound models.

You took a familiar to be allowed to take a second power - this wasn't a separate model. Then if you took Thrall wizards (they were 5pts and were separate models), you could sacrifice one per turn in order to use a second power (and you also got extra wounds/attacks in your squad!). They were great if you took cheap lieutenants with MoT, Thralls wizards and Bolt of Change - you could knock off two BS5 Bolt of Change shots per turn at that pesky Leman Russ tank!

I'm normally not one to moan (and I will of course be playing plenty of games to get to grips with them) BUT I have been playing ThSons for a few years and love them for various reasons. They were really difficult to use and therefore satisfying when they worked... and that was with autocast on the sorcerors. I really don't see how they're not going to be more difficult now, especially against my friend's Eldar army when for a meagre points cost he can take one piece of wargear that makes my 6 sorcerors partially redundant until I somehow manage to kill the farseer!!!! [/rant] :wtf:

Worsle
13-09-2007, 12:02
It also would bug me less if Typhus wasn't a better psyker than Ahriman..

Ahriman can cast 3 powers a turn while Typhus gets to use one of two powers automatically (one is the equivalent a a passive ablity he had before too) I am sorry but that does not make Typhus a better psyker.

As to a chaos god killing your psyker being odd, err no the chaos gods are well known for gifting people with all sorts of "useful" abilities. I am sure Tzeentch who is the lord of change would find it a grand idea if he randomly turned your sorcerers into a group of mice or what ever else takes his fancy.

Scythe
13-09-2007, 12:37
I suppose there is the force weapon. But then most of the time the sorceror won't be fighting multi-wound models.

You took a familiar to be allowed to take a second power - this wasn't a separate model. Then if you took Thrall wizards (they were 5pts and were separate models), you could sacrifice one per turn in order to use a second power (and you also got extra wounds/attacks in your squad!). They were great if you took cheap lieutenants with MoT, Thralls wizards and Bolt of Change - you could knock off two BS5 Bolt of Change shots per turn at that pesky Leman Russ tank!

I'm normally not one to moan (and I will of course be playing plenty of games to get to grips with them) BUT I have been playing ThSons for a few years and love them for various reasons. They were really difficult to use and therefore satisfying when they worked... and that was with autocast on the sorcerors. I really don't see how they're not going to be more difficult now, especially against my friend's Eldar army when for a meagre points cost he can take one piece of wargear that makes my 6 sorcerors partially redundant until I somehow manage to kill the farseer!!!! [/rant] :wtf:

Ahh, yes of course, thrall wizards they were. Still, there was only a finite amount of those...;)
Sure, Eldar have some nifty gear which shuts down a large part of your psychic powers (nids have something similar, tough slightly less powerfull btw). On the other hand, depending on how flexibile you are with your definition of a Thousand Sons army, you could have gained Tzeentch havocs, raptors, etc. Don't get me wrong, I still think a pure Tzeentch/Thousans Sons army is very difficult to play with (as you'd expect from a specialized themed army), and are not as balanced against every possible opposition (again, which you could expect), but they certainly are not completely hopeless imho.

Kriegschmidt
13-09-2007, 12:47
Sure, Eldar have some nifty gear which shuts down a large part of your psychic powers (nids have something similar, tough slightly less powerfull btw). On the other hand, depending on how flexibile you are with your definition of a Thousand Sons army, you could have gained Tzeentch havocs, raptors, etc. Don't get me wrong, I still think a pure Tzeentch/Thousans Sons army is very difficult to play with (as you'd expect from a specialized themed army), and are not as balanced against every possible opposition (again, which you could expect), but they certainly are not completely hopeless imho.

You're right, they're not completely hopeless and I'm certainly not going to "take my bat home" and pack up my ThSons. But having put thought and imagination into creating an interesting ThSons army full of small squads with lots of sorcerors and monsters (daemon prince, greater daemon, spawn...) and devoid of "this sorceror counts as a marine with a lascannon" or "this sorceror counts as a raptor with a flamer", I'm cross that there are now certain armies that can remove one of the two major elements of my army's make-up, i.e. the large number of psychic powers I rely on.

I don't want to add defilers, havocs, etc. because then I'm compromising on what I've created. I certainly don't mind the ThSons still being difficult to play. But I think making it no longer worthwhile or safe for my 6 sorcerors to do anything other than shoot their pistols/wave their cc weapons at Eldar armies is a mistake. ThSons vs. Eldar should be the "clash of the titans" of psychic armies - the two masters of magic/warp energy, surely? Not "bring your runes mate and we're laughing".

Right now I'm looking forward (with trepidation) to playing against most armies with my ThSons but also thinking that I'll never want to play against an Eldar army! What's the point when I'll habitually rely on 6 sorcerors???

Captain Micha
13-09-2007, 13:14
Krieg, really in my experience there are few armies that want to play vs a psychic dar army.....

Scythe
13-09-2007, 13:20
Right now I'm looking forward (with trepidation) to playing against most armies with my ThSons but also thinking that I'll never want to play against an Eldar army! What's the point when I'll habitually rely on 6 sorcerors???

Well, try to play with 'take all commers' armies then. Surely the Eldar player doesn't take the warding runes along against everyone?

We are drifting a bit off topic tough...

grizzly ruin
13-09-2007, 14:11
Like said, everyone is becoming quite vulnerable these days. Tough I agree it is kind of strange warlocks do not need a test, farseers are still instant killed if they fail their save. The new standard librarians in the DA and BA codexes are 'only' Ld9...

Any ability to autocast is dubious in my opinion. Chaos shouldn't be above this. Chaos gods do care little about their mortal followers. If a chaos sorceres taps into his patrons power, he might just as well be overwhelmed with power as any other guy. And believing in one 'god' does not protect you from Daemons of another god or other warp entities. Remember, strong psykers can attract anything in the warp, not just their gods attention.

Sorry if I came across as harsh in my first reply. I understand that it is a bit annoying that Tzeentch lost an ability which set its psykers apart from others. However being able to use 2 powers is a conciderable advantage in my opinion (and Ahriman is quite the psychic beast now).

Instead of autocast, they could have been given a reroll.

And Tzeentch and/or Chaos Sorcerers should have retained some method of affecting enemy psykers.

Scythe
13-09-2007, 14:39
Instead of autocast, they could have been given a reroll.

Then you'd better scrap the rule altogether. Just like the previous daemon weapons. Fail a ld10 test, and you suffer a Sd6 wound, with save. That rule only filled space instead of actually doing something. Perils of the warp is dangerous, and psychic powers do not always work automatically. I think a 2/36 chance of suffering an attack and a 2/36 chance of a power not working is more that reliable enough.


And Tzeentch and/or Chaos Sorcerers should have retained some method of affecting enemy psykers.

I'd rather throw all psychic defense out of the window altogether. Items like a psychic hood or the eldar runes (available to only a few armies, mind) make casting a psychic power nigh impossible unless you have Ld10 (and not one power, but all of them). Throw that nonsense away, it is not like most psychic powers blow your army away completely (and a lot of armies have to live without that precious defense). If you want some kind of anti-psyker rule/ability, base it on the sisters one. A simple 5+ save against any power affecting them. Simple, easy, and doesn't makes powers completely useless.

Kriegschmidt
13-09-2007, 15:37
I'd rather throw all psychic defense out of the window altogether. Items like a psychic hood or the eldar runes (available to only a few armies, mind) make casting a psychic power nigh impossible unless you have Ld10 (and not one power, but all of them). Throw that nonsense away, it is not like most psychic powers blow your army away completely (and a lot of armies have to live without that precious defense). If you want some kind of anti-psyker rule/ability, base it on the sisters one. A simple 5+ save against any power affecting them. Simple, easy, and doesn't makes powers completely useless.

Buy this man a beer! :) I agree. Armies being allowed one piece of wargear that can passively render so much useless is a bit daft IMO. A 5+ chance to nullify a psychic power is reasonable - there's a 1/3 chance that the power may not work, NOT a 1/3 chance that I may have to take an invulnerable save or lose my squad-leading sorceror. And incidentally - I take small ThSons squads in Rhinos so that they can use Wind Of Chaos. When I say small, I mean 5-6 men total. How much damage will 4-5 rapid-firing bolters and a bolt pistol do??

And yes, the "DS obliterators" tactic does work for taking out Farseers. But what if, like me, you have an Iron Warriors army with plenty of Obliterators in it and want to keep your ThSons distinct from that? This is my one day to rant and I will look forward to tacticas coming out with tips on how to get around the "Runes of Warding vs. Tzeentch" question. :mad:

DarthSte
13-09-2007, 16:11
DS obliterators could take out the farseer. Or maybe take some berserkers to draw that nasty Eldar players attention...

...poor loser...

Lord Malek The Red Knight
13-09-2007, 16:56
And yes, the "DS obliterators" tactic does work for taking out Farseers. But what if, like me, you have an Iron Warriors army with plenty of Obliterators in it and want to keep your ThSons distinct from that?
"counts as"?


i'd like to see some massive, mutating, flame spouting Daemons (Spawn crossed with Flamers of Tzeentch type of thing) to "count as" Obliterators. :D

:)

~ Tim

Rioghan Murchadha
13-09-2007, 18:02
Any ability to autocast is dubious in my opinion. Chaos shouldn't be above this. Chaos gods do care little about their mortal followers. If a chaos sorceres taps into his patrons power, he might just as well be overwhelmed with power as any other guy. And believing in one 'god' does not protect you from Daemons of another god or other warp entities. Remember, strong psykers can attract anything in the warp, not just their gods attention.

Sorry if I came across as harsh in my first reply. I understand that it is a bit annoying that Tzeentch lost an ability which set its psykers apart from others. However being able to use 2 powers is a conciderable advantage in my opinion (and Ahriman is quite the psychic beast now).

Being able to use 2 powers but only purchase one is largely useless. Wow.. you have a force weapon.. as someone pointed out, how often do you hit a multi-wound model? Unless you're playing against a nidzilla list, not that often. Now, if they could cast the same power twice in a turn it would be a different story.

Yes the chaos gods are capricious.. doesn't mean they're abject ******. Imbuing a follower with your power so he can smite your foes, and then turning him into a puddle of goo isn't all that bright..

Ahriman isn't that much of a beast. for the cost of a land raider, the only thing that's good about him now, is at least he has an invulnerable save, and a power weapon... He's just as vulnerable to a psychic hood or runes of warding as a regular ass-champ sorc.

grizzly ruin
13-09-2007, 19:14
I'd rather throw all psychic defense out of the window altogether. Items like a psychic hood or the eldar runes (available to only a few armies, mind) make casting a psychic power nigh impossible unless you have Ld10 (and not one power, but all of them). Throw that nonsense away, it is not like most psychic powers blow your army away completely (and a lot of armies have to live without that precious defense). If you want some kind of anti-psyker rule/ability, base it on the sisters one. A simple 5+ save against any power affecting them. Simple, easy, and doesn't makes powers completely useless.

Yeah that would be great.

Except it hasn't happened, and won't be happening.

So my point still stands, they should have left something in for Chaos to interfere with other armies Psykers, since several armies have them and aren't getting them taken away.

Talisman of Tzeentch -1 LD to enemy psyker tests.

This gets removed, but unlimited range, unlimited use per turn like the hood and as well as other hinderances are left to notably the top tier armies - Nids, Eldar, SM - and show no signs of going anywhere.




Buy this man a beer! :) I agree. Armies being allowed one piece of wargear that can passively render so much useless is a bit daft IMO.

Talisman of Tzeentch -1 LD to enemy psyker tests.

This is hardly on the scale of Shdow, Runes or Hoods.

Sovereign
13-09-2007, 19:51
Armies being allowed one piece of wargear that can passively render so much useless is a bit daft IMO.
That depends on the Army and what the wargear does. I'm OK with the Eldar using their Runes.

I think the Psychic Hood is a problem, though. It should be usable *once* per enemy turn, but also grant Sv5+ against Psychic powers used against the wearer.

I think that Khorne should regain Collar, and expect to see it in the Daemon Book.

The rest (Nids, IG, Tau) shouldn't really gain much of anything.

W0lf
13-09-2007, 20:04
do you mean people think they are broken, or because they really are (in your opinion)?

to answer your question tim i believe they are very broken and that is also the general consensus amongst players in my area.

2 long term Tzeentch players dont want to play their 1ks anymore because they feel the list is abusive and 2 players (one nurgle/one khorne) who were fanatic about their armies suddenly sold them to buy 1k son armies...

not to mention a player who hates chaos just started a 1k army.

I feel they are broken but not as broken as Mech eldar.. they will however laugh all over Godzilla (5 wounds 3+ save, eh? your dead) and Mech tau (3s followed by 3s to kill?.. and whats your ld again?)

The ap 3 bolters arnt necessarily broken, nor is the 4+ invul save.. combine them howver and suddenly its very abusive.

Captain Micha
13-09-2007, 20:17
It'll be interesting to see as always how it plays out. Like the supposed uber harlies that turned out to be paper bags pants combat fighters.

*no falcons don't make them better either... *

Thoth62
13-09-2007, 20:23
I don't think it's abusive. Take too many of them, and suddenly, you've got a one trick pony, with a surprising vulnerability to small arms fire. Combine that with a complete lack of heavy weapons, and there isn't really a whole lot broken about that.

That's actually why I think the new rules for them are so brilliant. They are at just about the right cost for them to be good, but they aren't good enough to be able to win games without proper support. Which means that armies taking nothing but TS troops are going to be in a spot of trouble when it comes to dealing with a lot of things.

W0lf
13-09-2007, 20:23
It'll be interesting to see as always how it plays out. Like the supposed uber harlies that turned out to be paper bags pants combat fighters.

I never claimed harlies were uber nor thought they were...

they were hard to target but when you finally did they died horribly.. Plus they are a cc unit making them much easier to counter.

1k sons are a durable ranged unit. Hard to kill and hard to prevent.

You cant really stop them shooting at what they want to..

Captain Micha
13-09-2007, 20:27
what about killing them the good old fashioned way of massed amounts of shots. Like instead of las cannon devs... hb devs.. for example..

I do think Tau might have some serious trouble with them though... We don't really have the ability to take alot of high rate of fire that isn't seriously hurt for range...

Necrons... ugh... Okay.... I think I see your point... because this army period can't muster the high volume of shots to efficiently down 4+ normal savers without making your good stuff right nice targets for his good stuff.... *tau v necrons goes alot like this... warriors all shoot. 1 tau dies... tau shoot no crons die... shoot 1.... heavy destroyers meanwhile shoot at fw.. all fw die.. broadsides open up on destroyers... I think you know what happens there..*

Thoth62
13-09-2007, 20:30
Just look at it this way. Anything that doesn't nullify the 3+ save will be killing them twice as fast as they used to.

I know I have a friend who plays nids and is just itching to get his gaunts stuck in with my rubrics. He didn't like it as much before because it took so long for the combat to end, but now, he can end it twice as quick.

Voodoo Boyz
13-09-2007, 20:37
My god, it's like you people don't know how to play the game.

Thousand Sons will die to massed small arms fire. Necrons will absolutely love fighting them. Sure you can ignore my armor save, but I get my WBB. And I will outnumber you, and I will more than likely get the opening shots, and I will put out enough firepower that will force you to fail 3+ saves.

And as for beating Zilla lists, it's highly debatable. If the Zilla list is built right then the 1kSons will go down and hard. They will have enough Dakka Fex's and Tyrants with Devourers that will just destroy squads at a time.

Thoth62
13-09-2007, 20:43
I hope you weren't talking to me. That's what I've been saying already (just with a little more tact). If I'm not properly supporting my elite units, which in this case are the rubric marines, then I'm going to go down fast and hard. No question. Just like any other unit in the game, rubrics can be a hard unit to deal with, if they are properly supported. If they aren't, than you get what Voodoo Boyz so accurately described.

lord_blackfang
13-09-2007, 20:51
My god, it's like you people don't know how to play the game.

Thousand Sons will die to massed small arms fire. Necrons will absolutely love fighting them. Sure you can ignore my armor save, but I get my WBB. And I will outnumber you, and I will more than likely get the opening shots, and I will put out enough firepower that will force you to fail 3+ saves.

And as for beating Zilla lists, it's highly debatable. If the Zilla list is built right then the 1kSons will go down and hard. They will have enough Dakka Fex's and Tyrants with Devourers that will just destroy squads at a time.

Weren't you the first one to declare Thousand Sons our new bread & butter?

W0lf
13-09-2007, 20:55
Thousand Sons will die to massed small arms fire. Necrons will absolutely love fighting them. Sure you can ignore my armor save, but I get my WBB. And I will outnumber you, and I will more than likely get the opening shots, and I will put out enough firepower that will force you to fail 3+ saves.


Thousand sons will die to massed small arms fire no easier then any other marine, they will merely die 2x less to heavy fire then other marines.

Yes you get WBB but you lose your 3+ save meaning the 1k sons are 66% more effective at killing you compared to normal marines. For how many points more? 5/6?

Oh and they have slow and purposeful, you dont.. we start 24" away min. you cant fire first turn.. 1k sons can move up to 6" and still fire 24".. thus they will be firing first not you.

as to the comment about enough wounds to fail their saves.. well duh. that is how you kill marines. Plus i get a 3+ save.. you get a 4+ (WBB)


And as for beating Zilla lists, it's highly debatable. If the Zilla list is built right then the 1kSons will go down and hard. They will have enough Dakka Fex's and Tyrants with Devourers that will just destroy squads at a time.

a 3+ save means a 5 wound fex needs to be wounded 15 times by ap 4,5,6 to die.. against ap3 its 5 wounds... The 1k sons are 3x better at killing you.

And yes i know how nidzilla plays.


My god, it's like you people don't know how to play the game.

Id argue that as ive got 6 years experience under my belt, several tournys and rought 3x more wins then losses that i can infact play WH40k.

tbh anyone who cant is a bit of a tard.. its not like 40k is a hard game now is it?

oh and i dont play 1k sons, nor do i doubt i can beat them.. im merely saying they are broken..

broken dosnt = unbeatable.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
13-09-2007, 20:58
Thousand sons will die to massed small arms fire no easier then any other marine,
per model yes, but not per point.

~ Tim

Captain Micha
13-09-2007, 20:59
Voodoo, do you realise how hard it is to down 4+ armor save armies with crons?

Much less 3+? sheesh man. See, they might be able to down the t sons... but what about the rest of the list? Necrons have to be very careful in a shooting war, and while the t sons are a high priority target to be sure. *ap3 weapons and all. and probably high pt cost*the real heavy lifters in the army will either assault the crons to death, or just sit em down and blast em one

I don't think they are broken yet.. but some armies are going to be pulling hair out on this one. But adapt and overcome.
Maybe I'll actually start taking wraith up again. Or just do what I always do when I see marines.. (and hope the other guy doesn't have defilers or vindicators) and take monoliths

my tau I suppose will be taking those precious ion guns, stealth teams, finders with rifles and maybe even *gasp* vespid

Voodoo Boyz
13-09-2007, 21:39
Thousand sons will die to massed small arms fire no easier then any other marine, they will merely die 2x less to heavy fire then other marines.

Yes you get WBB but you lose your 3+ save meaning the 1k sons are 66% more effective at killing you compared to normal marines. For how many points more? 5/6?

Oh and they have slow and purposeful, you dont.. we start 24" away min. you cant fire first turn.. 1k sons can move up to 6" and still fire 24".. thus they will be firing first not you.

as to the comment about enough wounds to fail their saves.. well duh. that is how you kill marines. Plus i get a 3+ save.. you get a 4+ (WBB)



a 3+ save means a 5 wound fex needs to be wounded 15 times by ap 4,5,6 to die.. against ap3 its 5 wounds... The 1k sons are 3x better at killing you.

And yes i know how nidzilla plays.



Id argue that as ive got 6 years experience under my belt, several tournys and rought 3x more wins then losses that i can infact play WH40k.

tbh anyone who cant is a bit of a tard.. its not like 40k is a hard game now is it?

oh and i dont play 1k sons, nor do i doubt i can beat them.. im merely saying they are broken..

broken dosnt = unbeatable.

They're 300 points or so (well, just under), per squad. There will not be many of them. If they take other things as part of the list that are vulnerable to all your normal anti-MEQ AP2 guns (Princes, Oblits) shoot them first, and then hit the 1k Sons with lots of firepower from the normal guns.

I don't know, I play some pretty competitive games with Loyalist Marines, Necrons, and Orks. My Orks are the weakest ones and they're not so afraid of the 1kSons because it's just less marines to fight. My marines aren't scared one bit, I can outgun that army easily.

Necrons aren't afraid of pure 1kSons, but they will have a hard time if the Chaos player takes 9 Oblits with their 1kSons. If they go with Preds and whatever else, I'm generally not going to be worried about the 1kSons, just focus fire and watch them go away.

vicious6669
13-09-2007, 22:37
1k sons are nice but must be used effectivly. They are quite expensive and must be used against the right enemy. I would recomend putting them in a landraider or rino so you could move,disembarke,then rapid fire the snot out of the enemy unit(and thats before the asp.sorc. casts his spell). I can easily see why these models would sell so well.

Bolter Bait
13-09-2007, 23:17
Im sorry but everyone buying them because they are broken. simple as.

Why do you think IWs were so popular last codex and 1k sons are now???

everyone hears 'ap3 boltguns, 4+ inv' and jumps on the band wagon.AP 3 bolters? 4+ Invulnerable save? Hidden force weapons? Why these are the things that counter lasp-plas MEq Spam and Nidzilla armies! A unit designed to be a hard(er?) counter to some of the more competitive and over-used armies? Why yes, yes it is. No surprise that they are selling well. And they will continue to sell well until those types of armies stop showing up most of the time (last store tournament I checked out consisted of seven custom Marine chapters that all worshiped the energy weapon duo, three Nidzilla lists, a Mech Eldar list and a very unhappy Ork player). I'm all for fighting cheese with a little extra sharp cheddar.

=======================

Anyway, besides the fact that they're a counter to some of the more powerful choices in the game, 1kSons are just damn fine models. They've got a cool style for their appearance (pseudo-Egyptian) with a tight colour scheme, plus they just got a nice boost in power compared to their older incarnations. You should be asking yourself, "Why is this boxed set still in stock and on the shelf?" and not in the Dark Eldar sense. :angel:

Hell, if it wasn't for my time crunch and the need to finish my Tyranids first, I'd be right out there buying up those sets (Ebay!) and converting a hellish force. Use those new Possessed sprues to convert-up some appropriately mutated Sorcerers to lead some Rubrics, toss in some Oblits for ranged AT, use some Tzneetch marked Raptors as Screamers that don't have to run away (H&R) each turn like idiots. Oh yeah, lots of fun for me. I could spend a year painting up that army without ever playing it.

[edit] Oh, the other possible reason for the boxed sets always being sold out is that someone somewhere at sometime may show up to an Apocalypse match with an entire 1,000 man Rubric Legion. :eek: Wouldn't that be a gas?

Thoth62
13-09-2007, 23:53
If by gas, you mean I gas them and steal their army, then yes. :evilgrin:

FateofChaos
14-09-2007, 01:03
I had 1kson army before it was cool... now I look like just an other 1kson chaos gamer... need a new army now... maybe less nurgle players... but there ugly... khrone.. hate them... and purple is too girly..

Thoth62
14-09-2007, 04:12
What about pink? ;)

Vineas
14-09-2007, 05:34
Real men wear pink!!!!!!!!

I still really don't know what all the fuss is about with 1k Sons. They are expensive as hell, more so if you mount them in Rhinos (35pts/rhino adds up quick). Assume about 325 for a 9 man squad in a naked (no EA or DP) Rhino you are looking at 1300 pts for 4 squads, add in an Hq and in a 1500 pt game that is going to be a craptacular force. My tau would have a field day; 4 rhino mounted squads are more than too easy for a tau army to put onto foot, then from there it's a simple matter for my suits and tanks to stay out of bolter range and shoot them to pieces.

If you want to take a pred or two in 1500 pts well, deduct one squad from that total. 1k Sons are still going to be hard to win with. I have this feeling in about 2-3 months we will suddenly see a boom in Ebay sales from people realizing that what looks good on paper (1k sons) isn't all that uber and auto-winable and getting fed up because of that fact.

As a tau and nid player I will be more annoyed and afraid of tzeentch havocs and chosen than I will be of 1k Sons themselves. 4 or 5 flamer chosen or 4 heavy bolter/autocannons with 5+ saves that nothing can reduce, even my markerlights, is going to annoy the hell out of my Burning Eye suit teams and my Genestealers are going to really hate the aforementioned squads.

DutroX
14-09-2007, 06:10
Either way, GW is always going to take our money.

My friend is a longtime 1k Sons player, been playing them for about 3-4 years. He made them work for him, and was almost unstoppable at our local GW. He was the only 1k Sons player at the store however, which he seemed to enjoy. Reminiscing aside, he seems to be quite excited for the new rules.

"Everyone" may be buying 1k Sons boxes now, but only time will tell about the effectiveness. The rules for the unit aren't all that matters, the abilities of the actual player and how he/she fields his/her units is a huge factor as well.

Kriegschmidt
14-09-2007, 10:34
"Everyone" may be buying 1k Sons boxes now, but only time will tell about the effectiveness. The rules for the unit aren't all that matters, the abilities of the actual player and how he/she fields his/her units is a huge factor as well.

Quite. Which is why I'll give it my best, playing with them and working out how to win with them. But I have to say from what I've seen so far I am convinced that it will be harder to win with a pure ThSons army now than it was before (more expensive asp.sorcerors, no more power fists, having to take psychic tests...). And for me, encorporating more unit types is not the answer.

With a maximum of 16 AP3 bolters and 4 AP3 bolt pistols in my army (and that's at 2000pts), I'm really not expecting AP3 bolters to make much difference to my win tally. Time for more spawn and another daemon prince methinks....

Thoth62
14-09-2007, 16:01
DutroX, I'm in the same boat. I've been playing TS for about 2.5 years now, and in that time, I've only ever seen one other TS player, and he only showed up a couple of times. I was consistently at the top of the challenge board, and before I removed it from my sig, my overall record for this year was about 27-3-3. There are actually members of my gaming group that are scared to death as to what I could put on the table with the new codex. And I'm telling you right now, unless it's over 2000 points, there will only be one squad of Rubric Marines. That's it.

grizzly ruin
14-09-2007, 17:53
They're 300 points or so (well, just under), per squad. There will not be many of them.

Depends on the build.

8 TSons including Sorcerer w/ Doombolt = 231.

10 CSMs ACw/PF 2x PG = 220.

So you'll really only get the CSM squad significantly cheaper if you forego the AC.

Satone
14-09-2007, 17:55
was in my local GW today and they have tonnes of thousand sons boxes, not everyone wants them after all, shocker

Scythe
18-09-2007, 09:06
Depends on the build.

8 TSons including Sorcerer w/ Doombolt = 231.

10 CSMs ACw/PF 2x PG = 220.

So you'll really only get the CSM squad significantly cheaper if you forego the AC.

Erhm, you are comparing 8 to 10 models? Given an equal amount of models, the difference is around 50 points, which is rather significant. And the difference further grows if you take a cheap champion (or not one at all) and cheaper special weapons like meltaguns.

Kriegschmidt
18-09-2007, 10:05
Depends on the build.

8 TSons including Sorcerer w/ Doombolt = 231.

10 CSMs ACw/PF 2x PG = 220.

So you'll really only get the CSM squad significantly cheaper if you forego the AC.

That's not a realistic comparison. Aside from the difference in numbers (already mentioned), the TSons squad you give as an example can't deal with anything higher than AV10 or T7, whereas the CSM squad has the firepower and cc punch to have a chance with anything (even AV14 or T10).

And you can't take it in isolation like that. In order to make up an army (not just one squad out of context) and sticking to the pure TSons model, you'd need some anti-tank, which would mean giving the sorceror BoC. This bumps up the cost a big chunk more. So looking at two, three, four squads that make a functioning army, the total cost would be significantly more than two, three or four CSM squads making up a functional army.

So there :D

grizzly ruin
18-09-2007, 10:29
Erhm, you are comparing 8 to 10 models? Given an equal amount of models, the difference is around 50 points, which is rather significant. And the difference further grows if you take a cheap champion (or not one at all) and cheaper special weapons like meltaguns.

Those are valid points, the TSons also can't deal with a variety of threats.

However, thats if you play with a single unit of TSons in isolation.

Supported by other, less expensive elements they become quite a different unit.

I compare points to points mostly. The CSMs may have 2 extra models, but get no saving throw vs. MEQ killers like Plasma Guns, Battle Cannons, Power Weapons, Power Fists, Rending, etc.


That's not a realistic comparison. Aside from the difference in numbers (already mentioned), the TSons squad you give as an example can't deal with anything higher than AV10 or T7, whereas the CSM squad has the firepower and cc punch to have a chance with anything (even AV14 or T10).

And that's why the two units sitting next to each other (in the codex) are balanced.

And why combining them works well.

And like I mentioned above, the Sons are significantly more resilient vs. common MEQ killers.



And you can't take it in isolation like that. In order to make up an army (not just one squad out of context) and sticking to the pure TSons model, you'd need some anti-tank, which would mean giving the sorceror BoC. This bumps up the cost a big chunk more. So looking at two, three, four squads that make a functioning army, the total cost would be significantly more than two, three or four CSM squads making up a functional army.

So there :D

And there's the flaw.

There are no pure Thousand Sons armies, the designers have gone out of their way to annihilate that.

There are only Thousand Sons heavy forces, or Tzeencth based lists.

Anything else is total imagination.

You have people who play "pure" Thousand Sons armies making army lists on these forums using Obliterators and non-dedicated cult vehicles. Using Possesed with Icons.

Those are not Thousand Sons, those are the fabrications of players clinging to something that no longer exists - cult lists.

So as far as "taking it in isolation" my TSons unit template, backed up with Obliterators, Raptors, DPs and even basic CSMs with 2x PGs and PFs look signifcantly more dangerous and not nearly as overpriced as people make them out to be.

It's all about where you invest points and for what purpose.

lord_blackfang
18-09-2007, 10:33
Erhm, you are comparing 8 to 10 models? Given an equal amount of models, the difference is around 50 points, which is rather significant. And the difference further grows if you take a cheap champion (or not one at all) and cheaper special weapons like meltaguns.

Despite it's smaller size, the Rubric squad has comparable or even superior offensive and defensive capabilities. So why shouldn't they be compared?

In fact, I've never heard anyone compare units based on anything other than an effectiveness/points cost ratio.

AmBlam
18-09-2007, 11:55
1Ksons are the nicest looking unit imo. That may have something to do with it too.

toxic_wisdom
18-09-2007, 13:26
...Necrons aren't afraid of pure 1kSons, but they will have a hard time if the Chaos player takes 9 Oblits with their 1kSons. If they go with Preds and whatever else, I'm generally not going to be worried about the 1kSons, just focus fire and watch them go away...

This is a recap of a recent encounter (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/102914-ahriman-s-coterie-versus-post1918151.html#post1918151) with KSons and Necrons

Scythe
18-09-2007, 13:50
Despite it's smaller size, the Rubric squad has comparable or even superior offensive and defensive capabilities. So why shouldn't they be compared?

In fact, I've never heard anyone compare units based on anything other than an effectiveness/points cost ratio.

As the original remark was about the size of the squad ("there won't be too many of them"), the squad size / points cost was what was primary issue to me here.

Of course, the actual offensive / defensive abilities of Thousand Sons are not taken into account here (which I do not directly call superior; but that might be because I am mainly a Guard/Tyranid player). ;)

Master Jeridian
18-09-2007, 14:06
Of course GW knows the sale effects of rules.

The best example of this is any model with an Assault Cannon before the new SM Codex, and after.

I never saw Tornados, rarely Terminators before. Now they're everywhere.

Perhaps the important question is what powerful units have become so underpowered that sales have gone down?

Perhaps the Rhino from 3rd to 4th Ed.

So GW rules design is as much about getting underselling models up to profit levels as with any concept of balance.

Funnily with every rendition of SM/Chaos Bikes they keep adding additional tricks, special rules and abilities.....and they still to cut it.

pookie
18-09-2007, 14:10
Real men wear pink!!!!!!!!

LOL, can see it now, whats your CSM force called....

"the Metrosexual Legion"

grizzly ruin
18-09-2007, 14:58
As the original remark was about the size of the squad ("there won't be too many of them"), the squad size / points cost was what was primary issue to me here.

Of course, the actual offensive / defensive abilities of Thousand Sons are not taken into account here (which I do not directly call superior; but that might be because I am mainly a Guard/Tyranid player). ;)

I would hardly say that 10 vs. 8 is a case of "there won't be many of them".

2 models short. 2 Models that don't have a 4++ vs. every true MEQ killer in the game.

Yeah Pure TSons armies are possibly vulnerable to tons of small arms fire and while they die as fast as standard CSMs to small arms, standard CSMs don't exactly die that fast to those types of weapons to begin with.

Support the TSons with other units/threats and your opponent has his work cut out for him.

And honestly I don't think we're even going to see many lists without CSM units taking ACs w/powerfists. As CSM armies are short on units, and the mini squads used for gunlines are effectively dead.

So 8 TS w/ Sorcerer + Power of Choice is a solid comparison to 10 CSMs + 2x Special and AC w/ Fist.

They're also cheaper than a unit of PMs similarily armed.

8 PMs 2x PG ACw/PF = 254

Kriegsherr
18-09-2007, 17:24
But of course they know that...

there is no reason to update a game, and do more than some rebalancing, if there wouldn't be that awful "we need to sell some more minis" thing...

Thanks to that, list get thrown out of a codex and new lists are put in their place, codices are combined or splitted, and so on...

agreed, after playing with the exactly same list with just some rebalancing every 5 years for 20 years even the biggest fan would have left the building ;)

The Wraithlord
18-09-2007, 18:25
I cant really blame the Thousand Sons players now day, alot of people (including myself but I am builing Eldar) love the TS fluff and models, but didnt like the rules. Now the rules are good (though expensive, yet deserving of that expense) so many players who have had TS dreams are now acting on them,

That is me exactly. My first army was Tsons (back when they were immune to S4 and under weapons) simply because I loved the models and more importantly the fluff behind them. When the last codex came out and screwed them over I still used them but eventually left off taking them because I was tired of fighting uphill battles for at best a draw (we have some very good players here). Now that my Sons are back to competitive functionality I have dusted them off, stripped them down for repainting, and have begun to play them again with a will. AP3 bolters are evil vs meq's for sure but the high cost of the units balances them out well enough that they aren't overpowered.

And our store here can't sell them to anyone as they have been transferred to direct sales only for quite some time now.