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Mordante
10-09-2007, 20:29
So I'm building my beastmen army, and have only played 1 game with them, using a doombull general, mostly because I didn't have enough core without the minotaurs. I was underwhelmed with his performance, and other beast players have told me they never do will with him as well.

I plan to use a shaggoth in my army, and am considering just making him my general and saving the points of the doombull or beastlord and getting more stuff, like some centigors, or chariots.

Anyone have experience using a shaggoth general? I fear the use of war machines greatly, after watching my carnisaurs and stegadons fall to them, so that is the main reservation I have with it.

Also, is there a Chaos specific WFB forum somewhere? I can't find one.

logan054
10-09-2007, 21:03
never worth it, i think i would rather take a unit of unit of dragon ogres or a giant.

W0lf
10-09-2007, 22:12
Shaggoths are crap. The reason?

You need to charge, hit and kill with all your attacks to get +5 cr.

The enemy then gets 3 ranks, standard, outnumber, muscian and wins by one.

They need to charge with another unit.. so its a 300+ pt unit that needs babysitting, eh? not cool.

Shaggoths as lords are still pants..

Khorne: good but no better then on any other character.
Tzeentch: a lord slot that is only lvl2? makes him near 400pts?.. no thanks.
Nurgle: its so-so. Hes still ganna be losing combat...
Slaanesh: best mark but same issue as nurgle.

Generally shaggoths run in, hit 3 times, kill 3 then lose by 2...

Not a good thing..

Oh and point for point 4 dragon ogres are pretty much 3x as effective as a shaggoth.

Vilicate
11-09-2007, 03:36
The shaggoth is NOT meant to go head to head with a ranked up unit.

That's not his purpose. He's there to take flanks, single models, chariots, other monsters, etc. Plus he adds some nice leadership to the army, and he's fast.

I think he's a decent choice, but I like the Doombull better (With a nice big unit of miniotaurs).

Holy Crap! Manticores!
11-09-2007, 05:01
Aside from CR issues listed, it has the following problems:

1. Warmachine magnet.
2. Next-to-no ward save option. (Here you go: Take Shaggoth Champ with MoT. Pray for Yellow Fire. Get spell off. Without getting it dispelled.
3. It's a character, so can be cheesed out in challenges by stuff like Treeman AoN, etc.

On the other hand, if you use it properly, that is, hitting opponents in the flank, you will negate ranks, which helps the CR problem a bit.

They're hardly terrible, but they take a bit of subtlety to use correctly.

Kerill
11-09-2007, 05:42
They are a poor choice for the reasons pointed out above although if I was to run one it would be Tzeentch in a unit with the blasted standard (to get the 5+ ward save) to shore up combat resolution. With a unit of bestigors is an obvious option although its a waste of movement seven although just because the shaggoth starts in the unit doesn't mean he has to stay with it.

A second, albeit somewhat risky, option would be to join a unit of 18+ chaos hounds. They may die a bit easy but a large unit will have massive US, full rank bonus and is still pretty fast. Ld9 helps with panic tests too and your opponent has to decide to shoot the shaggoth or the hounds. Against gunlines though he is doomed to die very quickly unless you hide behind terrain an awful lot which is a waste of a lot of points.

Thats another advantage for Tzeentchy by the way since you can have two units of fliers to take out war machines and they can also get in a rear attack for +2 combat resolution+kills when the Shaggoth charges in.

Yes a shaggoth can negate ranks, but who is going to offer their flank to a shaggoth?

theunwantedbeing
11-09-2007, 09:45
A shaggoth is a support unit.
If your using him to charge units head on,by himself you using him wrong.
Besides,he has plenty of other flaws without using daft tactics to claim as flaws.

Large t5 target that doesnt fly or have a ward save.
And he's over 300points(because you never take one without light armour and a great weapon...well maybe an extra hand weapon against goblin hoardes,still over 300pts regardless).

His t5 means he gets easily gunned down by even bolt throwers.
3+ to wound,large target?
Yes please ^_^
You dont even need cannons to take him down,handguns will remove him pretty damned easily,as will crossbows...st3 shooting is the only thing that tends to bounce off him,most magic spells arent strength 3.

The marks available slaanesh is clearly the best,strikes first just makes him so much scarier,and allows you to stick him infront of knights and he has a reasonable chance of beating them on his own.

Khorne is possibly the worst mark,large frenzied target on foot...he'll be lucky if he kills even 1/3rd his points.

Nurgle...the extra wound is nice,but it doesnt give him extra unit strength,which is a shame..us7 would have been nice,as would cloud of flies,he'de be decent then.

Tzeentch...being level 2 is nice,and its not overly expensive(cheaper than a breay shaman) for basically the same effect.Orange fire on him is definitely very powerful,but unlikely to happen.The magic missles he has access to give him some use from his large target status.

Undivided...well,worse than the khornate mark to be honest.(I take back that the khorne one is the worst)sure its free but I cant see him getting much use out of being able to re-roll failed psychology tests.

You can stick him in a unit at least,which does help in some ways.
Mostly as he gets to benefit from spells that affect units(ie. movement spells).
Being a beasts unit he doesnt get a lot of choice in what he can join though.

Finally,its a cool model.
So thats reason enough to take him.

W0lf
11-09-2007, 16:45
A shaggoth is a support unit.
If your using him to charge units head on,by himself you using him wrong.
Besides,he has plenty of other flaws without using daft tactics to claim as flaws.

id like to point out i wouldnt use a shaggoth to charge head on.. nor would i use him stupidly.

I know how to use a shaggotha nd their purpose. The issue is hes a 300-400pt model that needs to combine charge or get a flank and hes not-so-durable.

Hes not terrible.. but for his points cost.. hes terrible :P

4 DOS beat a shaggoth at everything.

L192837465
11-09-2007, 19:44
how about NOT giving the shaggoth lord status. using him to scare an opponant by a flank charge threat could easily turn a game. EX: a unit of warriors are 7.5" away from a unit of x. the shaggoth is parked at a 45 degree angle to the warriors side (so he's threatening charging the flank after the other guy charges) and is 12" away. the guy bails and you just got yerself a nice charge with a block of warriors. or he charges and you hold, claiming a nice flank charge and beating them into the ground with amazing CR.

or he can go flank hunting. send him off to the right or left and he can scare people hardcore. so what if he gets shot by a bolt thrower? it takes 3 to kill him, and would you rather lose one model or 15 warriors?

plus *ahem* *clears throat*

CAUSES TERROR

people hardly EVER use this amazing skill to good effect. againstanything ld 8 based or with low base ld, that is rediculous! "i'm charging you. take a terror test. passed? ok, take a fear check. aww, am i charging you with a unit of furies and a brick of Dragon Ogres? you're outnumber 16 trillion to one by a fear causing unit. tootles!"

BTW: dragon Ogre Shaggoth in a unit of 3 Dragon Ogres is practically unstoppable. 800 points? ok. thats 17 wounds, 12 at t4 with a 4+ save and 5 at T5 with a 3+ save. have fun with that. and warp lightning cannons don't work against them. and also, 7" MOVEMENT

sulla
11-09-2007, 20:14
Being a beasts unit he doesnt get a lot of choice in what he can join though.


He's not a beasts unit. Only the core choices are beasts units.

theunwantedbeing
11-09-2007, 20:17
He is a beasts unit.
Beasts characters count as beasts units and are only allowed to join beasts units(and non anything units....like dragon ogres and centigor and trolls).

W0lf
11-09-2007, 20:26
'TW: dragon Ogre Shaggoth in a unit of 3 Dragon Ogres is practically unstoppable. 800 points? ok. thats 17 wounds, 12 at t4 with a 4+ save and 5 at T5 with a 3+ save. have fun with that.'

Or for 790 pts you can have 10 DOs.

ok. thats 40 wounds, 40 at t4 with a 4+ save. Unit strength 40 with fear. 12 S7 attacks from the front rank with 6 DOs behind it; meaning you have to do 28 wounds to dent the units fighting capasity... have fun with THAT.



Dos are betetr then Shaggoths pt for pt.

logan054
11-09-2007, 23:25
thats alot of points for a support unit, i think, personally for a rank breaker i would rather take a few units of marauder horsemen (i could have 3/4 units for the price of a shaggoth), hell i think a giant is a far better support unit than a Shaggoth and its ld 10 stubborn.

btw, he isnt a beat unit just a troll isnt a beast unit, its only stuff in the beast section of the book which is a beast unit, for example a mounted exalted can join a unit centigor but know a unit of beastmen.

Kerill
13-09-2007, 01:38
yep if you could field him with knights that would be ideal, but you can't which sucks :)

Also he would be good against non-doombull armies due to the terror, but thats about it. Treemen rock because they have save, ward save and most of all are stubborn. Still word is they will get better in the next edition so keep the model anyway.

A shaggoth will attract a lot of attention, a shaggoth general will attract all the attention which makes them worse. If you are running him alone then Slaanesh is indeed the best mark for him, but slaanesh minotaurs suck (relatively speaking)