PDA

View Full Version : Iron hands chapter organisation



darknar
10-09-2007, 20:27
As many avid iron hand players know we lack a bit of real in depth background for our chosen chapter

So far all we know that there are 10 clan companies and each leader of theses companies is part of a council which in effect make up the 10 chapter masters

I would call them Clan Councillors but thatís can be up for discussion as well

The 10 companies bit is the only thing that the iron hands follow in term of following Codex doctrine.

And as each company fends for itself recruitment wise itís hard to say how many Iron hand space marines and scouts are in each company. As the iron hands donít necessarily follow the codex they may have several hundreds if not thousands of space marines in each company.

And in effect could effectively have 10 chapters worth of space marines.

Another thing I have noticed is that the Black Templers have a similar philosophy when it comes to recruitment and I was thinking that the Iron Hands may do something similar to that of the black templers and go out on crusades. As in the minimal amounts of background given in there index astartes article in white dwarf issue 262 pages 64 to 71 or one of the other dedicated books.

So. What do people think. I like the whole idea that the iron hands have a council and I also like the idea that each company could be as large as any other space marines chapter.

And as the iron hands chapter is so mysteries to the inquisition and there lack of trust to any other race, space marine chapter and even humans wouldnít they have something a bit different

What are your thoughts players of 40k

spacemonkey
11-09-2007, 02:36
While yes each Clan Company is its own seperate entity, I doubt that anyone of them would get much larger than a standard company in size. Functionally they all work as Battle Companies and the Irons Hands are still a codex chapter in essence.

Khaine's Messenger
11-09-2007, 03:13
As many avid iron hand players know we lack a bit of real in depth background for our chosen chapter

They're egocentric, genocidal cyborgs with an inferiority complex and a streak of pride a mile wide. I think there's not really much more to say.... :chrome:


So far all we know that there are 10 clan companies and each leader of theses companies is part of a council which in effect make up the 10 chapter masters

I find it much more interesting to think of the Clans, as entities, as the "members" of the Great Clan Council. Whoever is there to represent them represents them; there is no set membership, no elect within the chapter beyond the Iron Fathers or the Venerable Dreadnoughts (who can't always be around to tend to such matters, but who are the preferred emissaries). Much easier to prevent singular power that way. Keeping in mind that it is Iron Hands tradition to duplicate commander positions (Iron Hands).


As the iron hands donít necessarily follow the codex they may have several hundreds if not thousands of space marines in each company.

Nah. The Iron Hands were firm supporters of Roboute Guilliman's decree to limit the power of the Space Marine chapters (well, at least according to legend). It would defeat the purpose of the Second Founding to have the Iron Hands be able to field such numbers.


Another thing I have noticed is that the Black Templers have a similar philosophy when it comes to recruitment

Er? No they don't. The Black Templars recruit from anywhere they have a fortress monastery (in the galactic sense), and some places they don't--the Iron Hands recruit only from Medusa, and the one documented case we have (Iron Father Gdolkin) relates how the Iron Hands don't even come among the tribes, but rather scavenge amongst the survivors of an annual death trek into the shadow-lands.


go out on crusades.

All Marine chapters do this. Just not with the frequency or fervor of the Black Templars....


I also like the idea that each company could be as large as any other space marines chapter.

Why, out of curiosity?


And as the iron hands chapter is so mysteries to the inquisition and there lack of trust to any other race, space marine chapter and even humans wouldnít they have something a bit different

How would exactly emulating another chapter be different? Even the Marines Malevolent can't hold a candle to the coldness of the Iron Hands.

Captain Cortez
11-09-2007, 04:43
You do know your stuff Khaine.

What I was wondering is if Red Scorpions and Marine Malevolent are somehow part of the Iron Hands. The Scorpions are very cautiuos about an allies and support (they even put Whirlwind Turrents on there Land Raiders:wtf:). As the Marines Malevolent are just plain don't care for humans but the accomplishment of a mission disragarding civilians(this got them in trouble with the Salamanders).

DantesInferno
11-09-2007, 05:42
They're separate Chapters, they're not part of the Iron Hands at all. They may have ideological similarities (or even use IH geneseed, though I'm reluctant to mention that possibility since the idea that if two Chapters have anything in common whatsoever, they must have the same geneseed seems far too prevalent, and gets used as a storytelling crutch all the time), but they're not the same Chapter, part of the same Chapter or anything like that.

darknar
11-09-2007, 10:11
They're egocentric, genocidal cyborgs with an inferiority complex and a streak of pride a mile wide. I think there's not really much more to say.... :chrome:

that much i agree on. but apart from that i belive the iron hands are lacking.



I find it much more interesting to think of the Clans, as entities, as the "members" of the Great Clan Council. Whoever is there to represent them represents them; there is no set membership, no elect within the chapter beyond the Iron Fathers or the Venerable Dreadnoughts (who can't always be around to tend to such matters, but who are the preferred emissaries). Much easier to prevent singular power that way. Keeping in mind that it is Iron Hands tradition to duplicate commander positions (Iron Hands).


so what your saying is that each company is in effect the great clan council and that any representative at the moment take leadership.regradless of if they are a venerable drednaught, iron father, or captin, just who is available at the time.
admitidly it sounds good but i belive that fragments the chapter too much with so many potatial leaders. unless the leaders have a command structour



Nah. The Iron Hands were firm supporters of Roboute Guilliman's decree to limit the power of the Space Marine chapters (well, at least according to legend). It would defeat the purpose of the Second Founding to have the Iron Hands be able to field such numbers.

they "were" a firm supporter of roboute guillimans's decree. thats not to say that they found weakness in the decree and opted to change it for the good.
the iron hands were reluctant to fragment there chapter to begin with(if i recall correctly)



Er? No they don't. The Black Templars recruit from anywhere they have a fortress monastery (in the galactic sense), and some places they don't--the Iron Hands recruit only from Medusa, and the one documented case we have (Iron Father Gdolkin) relates how the Iron Hands don't even come among the tribes, but rather scavenge amongst the survivors of an annual death trek into the shadow-lands.


what i mento to say is that they dont have a dedicated company to recruit too. instead they recruit directly into the company that they where found by
and yes. i fegot to mention the whole medusa only thing. tanks for reminding me :)



Why, out of curiosity?

i think i just dont like the idea that 100 marines seperate from any support from any of the other companys can sustai itself.

i would of thought that each company is in effect got something similar to that of chapter organisation

with battle companys and reserve companys within the company. it does not have to be a total of 1000 marines it could range from 200 to 700 depending on how recruitment is going and how many marines have been lost in battle.

any how would the iron hands go about with a master of the fleet, master of the forge and all the other masters. does each clan represent one of those aspects or does each clan company have one each.

pookie
11-09-2007, 12:17
i always imagined that the Clan Companys were a little like the SW great Companys, over 100 marines, but less than 200, each with there own individual support elements,a rmour, recon etc, not to mention a large 'Leviathan' type command vehicle.

spacemonkey
11-09-2007, 13:32
I see the Clan Companys being in the 120 to maybe 130 members range including recruited scouts, veterans, and various commanders. Then there are any Dreadnaughts of the Company. Then there would be all the chapter serfs and servitors to help out with everything else the company needs to do to be self-sufficent.

Khaine's Messenger
12-09-2007, 01:08
that much i agree on. but apart from that i belive the iron hands are lacking.

I do not think they are lacking as such. Room for expansion, sure, since their organizational structure is pretty unique and unexplored, but not lacking.


so what your saying is that each company is in effect the great clan council and that any representative at the moment take leadership.regradless of if they are a venerable drednaught, iron father, or captin, just who is available at the time.

Something like that. It would look more like this: whoever is around who has the highest seniority and is trusted to speak for the Clan is on the council. Most of the time, if a Venerable Dreadnought is there, that's him.


admitidly it sounds good but i belive that fragments the chapter too much with so many potatial leaders. unless the leaders have a command structour

That was the point of the Clan Council, however. And keep in mind that Space Marines are of much closer goals and agendas than the bickering High Lords.


they "were" a firm supporter of roboute guillimans's decree. thats not to say that they found weakness in the decree and opted to change it for the good.

Since legend suggests it was directly supported by their Primarch (per the discussion on the Codex from the BT IA article), that would take quite a bit of convincing.


i think i just dont like the idea that 100 marines seperate from any support from any of the other companys can sustai itself.

Since each Clan Company is "operationally" the same as a Battle Company, I would give them some margin of error, say 20-50 extra marines max (before scouts), to account for the possibility of reserves. However, asking how a Battle Company alone can "sustain" itself is an interesting question regardless of which chapter you're looking at, because even reserve companies are deployed with some regularity. Idle Space Marines are expensive do-nothings.


any how would the iron hands go about with a master of the fleet, master of the forge and all the other masters. does each clan represent one of those aspects or does each clan company have one each.

I would imagine each clan company has its own segment of the whole, but that they all compare notes and speak as a body when in conference with outsiders. Amongst the brotherhood of top-ranking Clan officials, there will be a known and acknowledged "best in the 'biz" who is effectively top dog, but his position is just as tenuous as the membership of the Clan Council.