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Captain_Ardias
10-09-2007, 22:34
From recent discussions, there isn't and most likely won't be a consensus on the precise sizes of titans. What I want to do here is perhaps start a project to create a set of schematics (partial or full, but most likely starting with the head sections, reactor and weapons levels) to figure out what a 'realistic' -as loosely as that term can be applied in 40k- size would be for them. My major question for you is the crew size of an emperor class titan, both human and servitor. From there, I'll try and figure out the sizes of the head command center and weapons control sections to get a decent idea of proportions. Also, if anything like this has been attempted before, a link would be useful :chrome:

Minister
10-09-2007, 22:51
One minor point: Emperor titans are not battle titans. Of the three classes the Emperor is the largest (battle in the middle, scouts the smallest).

You may be better off trying for a Warlord battle titan rather than one of the Emperor titans (the Imperator or Warmonger).

Captain_Ardias
10-09-2007, 23:16
my mistake, I had the strange thought that the warlord (epic model) was an emperor... But yea, the Warlord class is what I'm aiming for right now, its relatively doable and a decent size to start with, although an Imperator or Warmonger would be interesting in the future.

Ktotwf
10-09-2007, 23:19
The whole distinctions between battle titans and all that has always struck me as some of the nerdiest elements of the Fluff, liked by the same people who get a hard on when they see a King Tiger tank or something. :p

Lord Cook
11-09-2007, 00:30
I don't see how you, being a warhammer hobbysit, could possibly have the right to call anyone nerdy. That would be like Napoleon insulting Hitler for being a dictator.

Ktotwf
11-09-2007, 00:57
I don't see how you, being a warhammer hobbysit, could possibly have the right to call anyone nerdy. That would be like Napoleon insulting Hitler for being a dictator.

:D If I get to be Napoleon then I am cool with that.

Captain_Ardias
11-09-2007, 03:08
well, aside from my initial misnaming (I see you trying to steal my thread :p), I was able to dig up the old adeptus titanicus rulebook but although it had a bit of background on them there weren't any crew lists or even descriptions of what they did. As a second request, are there any pictures of imperators or warmongers?

Hellebore
11-09-2007, 03:23
Their technical names are "Emperor class Imperator/Warmonger titan".



http://www.lanceradvanced.com/Models/Images/Titan.jpg
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperator_Battle_Titan

Although you may not agree with GW's sizes, they do give them.

The arguing over the size of titans is pretty stupid when the numbers are given.

It's like arguing that marines are 10' tall when the background clearly says they are 7-8' tall...

Hellebore

Ktotwf
11-09-2007, 03:28
What Hellebore is trying to say is that size DOES matter.

Captain_Ardias
11-09-2007, 03:43
heh, and cool pics, but the same stuff that gives sizes kinda undermines them as well. The titanicus rulebook lists the imperator as 35-40 meters tall (a fair enough measure, depending on its role and crew) but then in the next sentence says that their armored hides are 'metres thick' which is clearly impossible...

anyways, if I knew the crew sizes and the proportions of the model (pretty definable numbers and unarguable...I hope) which the pictures show, I can give a fairly accurate number as to its sizes.

quick edit: the imperator/warmonger is said to have massive stained glass windows with soaring cathedrals, and carry companies of guardsmen in its legs. At the threat of reopening the debate, it'll be interesting to see how big those things would actually have to be.

Hellebore
11-09-2007, 03:58
Well, I am of the opinion that you can argue with the definition of a company, 'soaring' etc, but you can't argue with the definition of a metre.

Otherwise, as I said, a space marine could be any size. It's not good enough for people to accept some measurments and not others, either all or none.

Selective measuring is not only illogical, it's hypocritical.

Personally, I don't care what size the titans are. HOWEVER, I DO care about what GW says they are.

If GW says they are 60000000000000000000 km tall, then that's how tall they are. If GW says they are 40 metres tall, then that's how tall they are.

As to 'metres thick' it is perfectly feasible for the front of their legs to be 2 metres thick. Also, the sentence is a little misleading, because the whole titan is armour, and I would have no doubt that its shoulders would be more than a few metres thick...

EDIT: I also don't care if people PREFER their titans bigger. What I DON'T like is when people claim their PREFERENCE is gospel truth.

Hellebore

icegreentea
11-09-2007, 04:01
working from smallest size. assuming that the foot carries a small company. so like 120-150 soldiers. i've never actually seen the foot of an emperor class, so im putting them on two levels, with evenly spaced fireslits every meter or so. the foot has a circumference of about 75 meters or something. assuming a circular foot, thats about a 450 square meters of surface area. someone can do the ground loading calculations on that. (450 meters should carry the whole weight of the titan cause of the whole walking thing.

of course this all changes of they have giant companies or something like single or triple levels.

really, in my mind, i just imagine 100 meter tall titans even though i know that wouldn't make any sense at all.

Captain_Ardias
11-09-2007, 04:37
Hellbore, I started doing some calculations and rough drawings of scale, and I'm actually starting to agree with you. I've attached the page with my first sketches, but here are some highlights: the head could conceivably be 5m3, with a single deck and armor for the bridge containing the princept and four bridge crew to manage walking/weapons and communications. The two legs, if hollow, could be up to an average of 15m2 of deck space per deck with three decks for a total of about 45 square meters of floor space per deck, with an integrated cannon on the top level, assault ramps on the first floor between the 'toes' would allow quick dismount for attack.

the 'soaring cathedrals' could still be so (with a loose definition of 'cathedral') to be 10 meter tall spires with baneblade sized battlecannon installed about 5 meters up. Similarly, the top spire would be almost 25 meters tall (almost 8 stories if I did my math right) full of communications gear, relay equipment and a macro cannon to top it all off.

edit: as I look into the warlord class titan, the first account I came across put it at 60m, taller than the warmonger :D

masecase
11-09-2007, 18:25
This might interest you...

http://forum.anargo-sector.net/viewtopic.php?t=261

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 19:16
Which is just an impressive interpretation and is no way canonical, whatever that might mean. As hellebore expresses, GW have stated some numbers and, regardless of whether they make any 'sense' to the individual (or individuals) interpreting the universe, they are the official numbers. Indeed, much like "depleted deuterium." It doesn't mean that you cannot justify it with some furious hand-waving...

Anyway, just thought that I would like to put that in a little bit of perspective before people started jumping up and down on what is otherwise a very pretty and interesting interpretation of a Titan.

Kage

Luthien
11-09-2007, 19:26
I don't see how you, being a warhammer hobbysit, could possibly have the right to call anyone nerdy. That would be like Napoleon insulting Hitler for being a dictator.

Hmm i like this, in the sig it goes

Arkley
11-09-2007, 19:28
One minor point: Emperor titans are not battle titans. Of the three classes the Emperor is the largest (battle in the middle, scouts the smallest).

You may be better off trying for a Warlord battle titan rather than one of the Emperor titans (the Imperator or Warmonger).

I always thought there was 4?

Emperor + Offspring
Warlords inc Chaos Banelords.
Reavers? Are they classed as battle titans?
Warhounds.

Archibald_TK
11-09-2007, 21:11
Yup, Reavers are Battle Titans like the Warlords.

As for the size Hellebore is right, it is canon in Titan Legion with the Warlord types ranging from 10m to 25m and the 3 known types of Imperator Titans ranging from 25m to 40m, the model that we know from the Titan Legion box being the tallest.
Thanks God GW doesn't take it's own fluff as seriously as its customers. The size comparison in Apocalypse depicts the Warlord as 2.4 times bigger than the Warhound, putting him around 60cm tall (that should put it around 40m).
TADA ! Now we have Warlords as tall as the old Imperators !

Fluff is reworked every minute by GW, I wouldn't be surprised if next year Imperator titans will become 60 to 80m tall just cause someone saw a deer cross the road, talked about it at the UK HQ and it was seen as a divine sign. So if you really want to draw schematics it may be wise to wait for the Apocalypse rulebook as it may countain precious informations that will send the old fluff regarding their size the way of the Squats. :)

Captain_Ardias
11-09-2007, 22:18
I hope so, I saw the teaser pics from the rumor section (datafax) but there wasn't anything on it in the way of tech specs aside from the comparison to the warhound and all the pretty weapons it could mount...

Oh, and although I'm sure you all will jump down my throat for saying it, but the pic putting the warlord at 40m is a good thing, as it makes them bigger and a little bit more 'realistic' in my book in terms of size and crew.

As to the cries of realism and taking fluff seriously, I don't consider it over the top. I like the ability to say that the fluff has some backing in reality (and to figure out just what would have to be done to build one), even if the paragraph right after that is of a space marine getting stepped on by said titan and surviving :D

winter has ended
11-09-2007, 22:25
lol but its a space marine, fluff wise you coulddropa space ship on him and he'll be fine lol

Feor
11-09-2007, 22:39
Just for referance, If you go to the Black Library website you can download issues of "Warhammer Monthly" which includes a running comic called, simply "Titan" focusing on a Warlord Titan & a young Moderati forced to take command of it. It shows a bridge crew of 4 and includes some decent images of the interior of the command deck, along with at least one image of the crew through the windows.

May not be gospel, but it can't hurt.

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 22:41
So if you really want to draw schematics it may be wise to wait for the Apocalypse rulebook as it may countain precious informations that will send the old fluff regarding their size the way of the Squats. :)
LOL. A reasonable point. The one problem with this is that if everyone did that there would be no such thing as fan 'fluff.' As you say, GW are continually... erm, evolving background material, thus any bit of fan 'fluff' may contradict any number of future pieces of material that GW may or may not release?

I know that's a bit extreme, but I sometimes feel that way, especially when new material is coming out. "Do not make anything up or you'll be wrong!" :D

Kage

Captain_Ardias
11-09-2007, 23:18
I'm reading the first issue of that comic, and I want to know who they got to illustrate it. Nothing absolutely awful I think, but lets just say I wonder at its authority when the first picture of the warlord attacking something shows a bunch of missiles coming out of the turbolasers...

Archibald_TK
12-09-2007, 05:50
LOL. A reasonable point. The one problem with this is that if everyone did that there would be no such thing as fan 'fluff.' As you say, GW are continually... erm, evolving background material, thus any bit of fan 'fluff' may contradict any number of future pieces of material that GW may or may not release?

I know that's a bit extreme, but I sometimes feel that way, especially when new material is coming out. "Do not make anything up or you'll be wrong!" :D

Kage
Point taken but the Titan size case is a little special so I just thought it may be interesting to wait. We don't have a lot of references for titan sizes, and the most recent usually just blindly repeat what was said ten years ago in the Titan Legion rulebook. Since the Apocalypse rulebook is only a month away, I hope they may remove the dust from what I see as outdated fluff. (Some people will disagree as they feel these size perfectly match their view of the Titans).

Sure the fluff until now is canon and I don't want to disregard that in fear of a horde of flufflawyers falling from the sky onto my head. But that won't change the fact that I feel GW messed the numbers at that time to the point that they don't even feel compeled to respect it themselves now (10m Reaver ? Sure, I don't call that a Titan but a big sentinel. Btw the FW Warhound miniature is already 16m tall, not bad for a Titan that is smaller than a Reaver).

Well the good thing is that we escaped the worse, as GW could have stated ten years ago that Imperator Titans were 10m tall, Warlords 5m, Warhounds 2m, and that SM stands for Space Midgets :p

Hellebore
12-09-2007, 10:26
Yup, Reavers are Battle Titans like the Warlords.

As for the size Hellebore is right, it is canon in Titan Legion with the Warlord types ranging from 10m to 25m and the 3 known types of Imperator Titans ranging from 25m to 40m, the model that we know from the Titan Legion box being the tallest.
Thanks God GW doesn't take it's own fluff as seriously as its customers. The size comparison in Apocalypse depicts the Warlord as 2.4 times bigger than the Warhound, putting him around 60cm tall (that should put it around 40m).
TADA ! Now we have Warlords as tall as the old Imperators !

Fluff is reworked every minute by GW, I wouldn't be surprised if next year Imperator titans will become 60 to 80m tall just cause someone saw a deer cross the road, talked about it at the UK HQ and it was seen as a divine sign. So if you really want to draw schematics it may be wise to wait for the Apocalypse rulebook as it may countain precious informations that will send the old fluff regarding their size the way of the Squats. :)


And as we know how tall a warhound is through FW, (~15 metres) we can guesstimate the warlord to be ~38-40 metres tall.

I've not seen Warlord titan sizes before, only the warhound and imperator. Whenever quoting Imperator sizes, I usually only ever give the highest value, which is 40 metres, despite GW saying between 25 and 40.

Until we see what GW says about the Imperator, it is still between 25 and 40 metres tall - the warlord is now almost the same size.

I would not be adverse to the idea of the Imperator getting up to 60 metres tall (to the top of its towers), but until GW indicate otherwise, it will still be between 25 and 40 metres tall.

CELS has again shown his sketchupfoo is superior:p

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
12-09-2007, 10:58
working from smallest size. assuming that the foot carries a small company. so like 120-150 soldiers.

Something I've never liked - infantry being carried in the legs.



i've never actually seen the foot of an emperor class, so im putting them on two levels, with evenly spaced fireslits every meter or so. the foot has a circumference of about 75 meters or something. assuming a circular foot, thats about a 450 square meters of surface area. someone can do the ground loading calculations on that. (450 meters should carry the whole weight of the titan cause of the whole walking thing.

The legs of the model are about the size of an epic Land Raider (although about half the height again). So if you get 20 people into each one, you're doing well.

Then you've got the fact that you're taking space from structural supports for the transport cabins - whilst the external armour would keep it solid to start with, any armour penetration will radically reduce the strength of the leg - meaning it's likely to collapse under the massive weight (Warhounds are about 400 tonnes IIRC - an Emperor would be 2-3,000 plus - giving a ground pressure of about 10 t/square metre - even with the 75m radius you propose, (they're more like 5-10 m IMO), and whilst you can use AG to offset the weight, if that system fails or is damaged in combat, the titan is in trouble).

Add to that the shockwaves running through the legs when it takes a step will at the very least render anyone in there insensible and in no state to fight, if not break their bones, liquify their organs, and generally kill them in very nasty ways.

The carapace towers are much better places to carry troops.

Archibald_TK
12-09-2007, 11:27
I just removed the dust from one of my old Epic warlords (Mars Pattern, the one from the old Space Marine box set) and compared it to the photos of the most recent one (Lucius pattern, the one we see everywhere, the same type as the one on the Datasheet) from the Epic Armageddon rulebook.

Alas I don't own the most recent in order to compare them back to back but the Lucius pattern strike me as being far taller than the Mars pattern. And I mean really, really taller. I also have to admit I forgot that the old Warlords were not that tall compared to their Reaver and Warhounds counterparts (especially if you don't take into account their carapace weaponry).

Looks like making the Warlord around 40m in the Apocalypse rulebook would not invalidate the Titan Legion fluff (as the Lucius pattern didn't exist at that time).

I now feel the urge to buy a new Epic Lucius pattern Warlord just for the sake of putting it next to my Mars pattern Warlord and my Imperator.

As for the Imperator transport capacity :
- Each leg bastion may hold up to 6 squads (2 per level).
- You have two barracks, one above each leg, wich may hold up to 3 squads each.
- The small towers may hold up to 1 squad each.
- The tall towers may hold up to 2 squads each.
- Everything else including the central tower hold only Adeptus Titanicus personnel.

Remember that by a squad they mean an epic base so that means 5 people.
Also know that 2 squads per leg (those on the middle level) as well as all the squads in the towers may fire outside the Titan.

EDIT -
I found an extremely interesting pic here (http://www.pbase.com/corwinb/image/29255296)
You can see two Lucius pattern Warhounds in front, one Reaver to the right, one Warlord to the left, and a Mars pattern Imperator in the back.
Do you see the size of the Lucius pattern Warlord compared to the Imperator ? It's carapace stand at the same height as the Imperator's head. Well to give you an idea, the old Mars pattern Titan carapace would stop exactly at the same height than the Imperator's groin/bust junction.

As a side note the Lucius pattern Warhounds also appears far bigger than the old Mars pattern. Once again that should point to the fact that despite the new titans being taller, it doesn't contradict the old Titan Legion fluff. I'm also starting to shift my perception of the old Titans size closer to what GW wrote back then and farther away from the gigantic warmachines I had in my memory.

Hellebore
12-09-2007, 12:30
There's nothing wrong with deciding that in your version of the 40k universe, titans are 200 metres tall.

All I've ever cared about is that people understand that that is their opinion rather than fact. GW has NOT said they are 200 metres tall.

Does that mean you can't do it yourself? Of course not, but it DOES mean that just because you prefer something one way, doesn't mean it actually IS that way.

Hellebore

Archibald_TK
12-09-2007, 18:38
There's nothing wrong with deciding that in your version of the 40k universe, titans are 200 metres tall.

All I've ever cared about is that people understand that that is their opinion rather than fact. GW has NOT said they are 200 metres tall.

Does that mean you can't do it yourself? Of course not, but it DOES mean that just because you prefer something one way, doesn't mean it actually IS that way.

Hellebore
I hope you're not directing that at me as I repeated enough time the GW official sizes of the titans to not be reminded about them. I'm also not a preacher myself and don't care that other people see them as 200m, 40m, 25m or 2m high. I also reconsidered my vision of the old Titan size so that it is now more in check with Titan Legion background.

But since you're talking about what is canon and what is not unless I'm mistaken GW never gave the size of the Lucius pattern Warlord in any publication since they didn't exist at the time of Space Marine and Titan Legion. I think I've given enough arguments that the new generation Warlords are taller than the old Mars pattern in my previous post and there is no fluff to contradict me. Please feel free to reread it if you feel my logic is flawed. Let me resume my previous post :

What we know from Titan Legion :
- Mars Pattern Warlords are up to 25m according to fluff, I assume (that's the only debatable point here) that the Warlord miniature from the Space Marine box is the tallest Warlord, thus a 25m model.
- Mars pattern Warlords are the only one existing during the Titan Legion era, Lucius pattern Warlords don't appear in it and as such have no fluff.

What we know from Forgeworld :
- Forgeworld Warhound is ~15m tall.

What we know from Apocalypse :
- The Apocalypse Rulebook compares a Lucius pattern Warlord to the Warhound allowing us to determine that the Lucius pattern is 40m tall.
- Mars pattern Warlords don't appear in Apocalypse and as such the comparison doesn't apply to them.

What we know from Epic Armageddon :
- The Epic Lucius pattern Warlord miniature is taller than the Mars pattern Warlord's one, wich seem in line with both Titan Legion and Apocalypse.

My conclusion :
- The Lucius pattern Warlord is taller than the Mars pattern Warlord.
- The fact that the Mars pattern Warlord is only 25m tall doesn't contradict the fact that the Lucius pattern Warlord is 40m tall. Fluff from Titan Legion makes Mars pattern Warlords 25m tall, fluff from Apocalypse makes Lucius pattern Warlords 40m tall and nothing else.

So current fluff makes the Battle Titans ranging from 10m up to 40m and not 25m. If you feel I'm wrong then please show me some informations coming from the 40k background that will correct me and I'll retract all of my statement. Until then I'll consider that from 10 to 40m is their official size range.
I hope you now understand that I made that statement while retrieving informations from different GW sources and not by creating random numbers for the sake of arguing. So don't hesitate to point mistakes if you see some.

Captain_Ardias
12-09-2007, 21:44
I've never seen the old titan models, but, from what you've said so far size wise comparing the two patterns of titans, GW seems to have upped both of them by about 2/3. If it is indeed the case that Lucius builds bigger titans than Mars (whether because they are more powerful, or mars can just pack more technology into a smaller space), then a Lucius pattern Imperator would be 65-70 meters tall (~ 20 story building if I did that right) or even into the 100m range if they felt like building something truly colossal. The only catch to this would be the mars pattern warhound produced by FW which is the same size as the Lucius, although that could be due to the realization that people couldn't fit into a smaller one and stay in scale (my interpretation).

As to the point about troops being carried in their legs, I would think a strong core construction using pure beams of admantium and shock absorbers would allow crewable 'pods' to be placed around the main mechanisms holding up the titan. With a 65-70m range to play with, pods could actually be a doable feature within the legs and still have the same livable space, not to mention the ability to change the architecture of the legs somewhat in the lucius pattern to make this more feasable.

Personally, until further points come up, I'm going to go with the argument above that GW has realized their mistake regarding titan sizes but are fixing it by introducing a new pattern that are bigger and more 'realistic' (there are those quotes again)... or it could be that it was a happy mistake on GWs part and we got an inadvertent boost to the new titans.

Archibald_TK
12-09-2007, 22:24
Keep in mind that so far, I don't think we've ever seen any Imperator built by the Lucius Forgeworld. The only Imperator model that we know is the old one from Titan Legion.
Also they are quite special as their carapace really end just over their head. Above that there is a small citadel but it's more akin to the mounted weapons atop a Warlord's carapace. It's both part of the Titan and not part of it as it's just a huge amount of weapons systems in the form of a citadel.

Also the huge difference between a Mars pattern Warlord and a Lucius pattern one is that the Mars pattern Warlord is a hunchback. The Mars pattern Imperator does not suffer from such a design so a Lucius pattern Imperator, assuming such a Titan exist, wouldn't be that taller compared to a Mars pattern one.

Some people would easily argue that they really are 40m tall only up to the top of the carapace and that the citadel is not counted in that size measure.
100m tall looks to me as overkill and would require insane technological feats in order for the Titan to support its own weight, let alone move, and few grounds would be able to support its weight. If you really want to guess a size without directly contradicting the old fluff, use a loophole and state that the Imperator is 40 meters up to the citadel ground and add another 25 or so meters for the citadel. That way your interpretation will be harder to attack. :)

EDIT -
This is a Mars pattern Warlord Titan (http://www.ifelix.co.uk/games/images/img008/sf10032.jpg)
Here is its Lucius pattern counterpart (http://www.stephane.info/res/article/magnets/titan.jpg)
To the left you can see the intermediary pattern that existed between the Mars and the Lucius (http://www.ifelix.co.uk/games/images2/img020/ep207.jpg)
Front shot of the Imperator (http://www.pbase.com/corwinb/image/29255300)
As a reminder, same Imperator in the previous group shot with all the Lucius pattern Titans (http://www.pbase.com/corwinb/image/29255296)

Some links seem to have a minimal bandwith, tell me if they don't work for you. At worst You can see some Mars pattern Warlords drawn on the cover of the old Space Marine box (http://www.stephane.info/res/article/ne_history/EPICCOVE.JPG)

Captain_Ardias
12-09-2007, 22:45
The interesting thing about that is the imperator is in a way a hunchback. If you look at the mars pattern warlord and imperator, the head is at the same level as the cannons, whereas the lucius stands more like a person, with the head above the arms and with shoulder cannons mounted 'lower' in relation to it than the mars pattern.

You're most likely right that a 100m tall monstrosity is too big (although I would bet there are special cases) for mass production, but by raising the head and shoulder armor, you could gain a few meters (up to the 70 I mentioned before). If we say though that with a more upright stance and only going up to the shoulder deck (two assumptions I'll make about the Lucius pattern for the sake of argument) is 70m tall, and with a 20m cathedral on top, it comes out to 90m, a little more than half the height of a U.S. cruiser. A Ticonderoga class cruiser weighs in at 9600 tons, which gives our titan a rough weight of 5300 tons and given the dimensions of a mars pattern imperator's foot, about 20 tons per sq. meter ground force (I assume I did that right anyways) which is about twice what was mentioned above.

Archibald_TK
12-09-2007, 23:06
Well if you are designing a Lucius pattern Imperator you are basically free to do anything you want since such a design has yet to be created by GW. And since Lucius patterns don't respect the old Titan Legion size chart even their height is a non issue. :)

But just a thought : Lucius patterns tend to abandon the concept of "Weapons above the carapace" and have more integrated weaponry. So an imperator could very well go the same way.
And if you would gain some height for all the lower part up to the carapace thanks to the Lucius hull design, you would probably lose even more height by integrating the citadel into the carapace as you would lose the Mars pattern citadel's huge towers.

In the end, a Lucius pattern Imperator may very well do the opposite of its Warlord counterpart by ending smaller than the old Mars design !

Captain_Ardias
13-09-2007, 00:18
Maybe, although I think the carapace citadel is one of the signature parts of the titan class (much like the wolf look of the warhound). Considering the differences between the patterns though, I would think that Lucius would do away with much of the overly gothic feel of the architecture and tend more towards a practical design.

On this drawing, I screwed up by starting too far over to the left (his foot goes off the page), but it captures what I think it would look like. The cathedral has been integrated more into the actual carapace and removed the conic spires to more of a castle type crenelation. Also, on the weapons, I like the plasma blastgun look and the cannon instead of just being a bigger version of whats on all the rest of the titans, is instead two of the cannons on the warlord.

The major change is on the legs: with the extra height, I figure that actual armor could be added in front of the troop holds, and the legs are long enough to have several levels of rooms and staging areas with the assault ramps again on the feet dropping down over the front toe.

CELS
13-09-2007, 02:38
CELS has again shown his sketchupfoo is superior:p
*bows* Thank you, grasshopper :D

One of the great things about 40k is that sometimes, it doesn't really matter what GW says. For example, when Black Library decided to make a comic book with Titans in it, they decided to throw all sense of scale out the window and draw Warlord Titans like they were 100 meters tall. And the world didn't end, in fact, the result was a damned cool comic book.

In 40k, the "bigger is better" philosophy can sometimes be a bit cloying, but my personal reason for wanting Titans to be bigger isn't just based on image. From reading the 'fluff', one gets the impression that Titan Legions are immensely powerful and strategically important. Titans are described as being capable of levelling cities and carrying weapons that wouldn't be out of place on Imperial battleships. When a battle Titan is "only" 25 meters tall, that does limit the amount of destructiveness to the point where I don't think it makes sense for Titan Legions to be so highly rated.

In regards to the Emperor class Titans, when these are described as having a frickin cathedral on their shoulders. Now, you can calculate that because the Emperor Titan is maximum 40 meters tall, this 'cathedral' would be 5 meters tall, but come on... An edifice that is 5 meters tall isn't even worthy of being called a church. It's more like a shrine. Now, we crazy cats from the Anargo Sector Project actually decided that it would be interesting to see how big an Emperor class Titan would be with a real cathedral on top. Like, the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris. Here's how that turned out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/CELS83/Anargo%20Sector%20Project/Misc/Titans4.jpg
Oh, and that dot on the left is a Leman Russ battle tank... :o

In retrospect, I guess these sizes are far too much. The Imperator could easily be shrinked down to 100-150 meters and still be quite impressive. However, I will say this; If Titans were actually 100 meters, the fluff describing them would make a lot more sense.

And if you think it's just completely unrealistic to have Titans that are 100 meters tall and above, then perhaps you should stop and think about all the other technological achievements of the Imperium (5 kilometer long starships with a speed and firepower that defies understanding), and reflect on the fact that the Titans are supposed to be some of the most advanced creations in the Imperium. Which is why they're so very rare, and only a couple of dozen Titans may be referred to as a Legion.

But yeah, Hellebore is right. No matter what your interpretation is, and how big they look in the artwork or how big they sound in novels, GW says that they're 40 meters tall. The flip side to the coin is that no matter what GW says, an Emperor class titan is a helluva lot taller than 40 meters in my head :D

Hellebore
13-09-2007, 03:27
Maybe, although I think the carapace citadel is one of the signature parts of the titan class (much like the wolf look of the warhound). Considering the differences between the patterns though, I would think that Lucius would do away with much of the overly gothic feel of the architecture and tend more towards a practical design.

On this drawing, I screwed up by starting too far over to the left (his foot goes off the page), but it captures what I think it would look like. The cathedral has been integrated more into the actual carapace and removed the conic spires to more of a castle type crenelation. Also, on the weapons, I like the plasma blastgun look and the cannon instead of just being a bigger version of whats on all the rest of the titans, is instead two of the cannons on the warlord.

The major change is on the legs: with the extra height, I figure that actual armor could be added in front of the troop holds, and the legs are long enough to have several levels of rooms and staging areas with the assault ramps again on the feet dropping down over the front toe.

Maybe make the turrets look more like:

http://www.clho.net/anime/voltron/castle.jpg
combined with:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fortp.htm

I agree they should be there, but I'm not sure the crenelations suits the hi-tech lucius armour plate look.

The first image above is the castle of lions from Voltron - it has stylings in common with the lucius plate design in my opinion. If you can combine that look with the gothicness of the fortress, I think it will come out looking great.


Hellebore

Archibald_TK
13-09-2007, 07:14
Very nice concept Captain_Ardias, it looks very close to GW current Lucius design and really looks like it could be part of their miniature range.

But I'll side with Hellebore here, the crenelations are the only part that seems out of place, not in line with the rest of the pattern. Maybe something more Moorish would fit more like that kind of tower (http://www.monumentalcity.net/oddsends/druidhill/parkdrui_turktower.jpg) or that one (http://www.italianvisits.com/images/campagna-im/positano/positano-tower2.jpg)

As for your heightened legs I find them quite interesting, especially since with an additional level they could gain the transport capacity that the smallest citadel towers are losing.

Sai-Lauren
14-09-2007, 14:34
As to the point about troops being carried in their legs, I would think a strong core construction using pure beams of admantium and shock absorbers would allow crewable 'pods' to be placed around the main mechanisms holding up the titan. With a 65-70m range to play with, pods could actually be a doable feature within the legs and still have the same livable space, not to mention the ability to change the architecture of the legs somewhat in the lucius pattern to make this more feasable.

Sorry, still don't like it. Simply by having the cabin (and especially the access doors) down there, they're structurally weaker than anything you can compensate for, plus even if the transported personnel don't get killed when it takes a step, there's no inertial dampers in the 40k universe, they'll be unable to launch an assault within a decent time frame of the foot touching down (mainly to get out before defenders reinforce the breach point) simply because they'll have to be secured into the cabin to stop them bouncing around.

I also don't think things like Emperor Titans are fast or mobile enough to act as assault transport units anyway - something like that is much better as a combined firebase/Command and Control centre, with dedicated support units to help defend it.

If you're going to have "Titan Assault Transports", then either a Reaver with a Carapace mounted corvus pod, or even a new design specifically for that purpose (I'd go for quadrapedal to allow for a large transport cabin in the body - for examples, the GDI Mammoth from C&C Tiberian Sun, or an SW AT-AT with shorter legs and a wider stance), with spinal multi-launchers (or maybe an earthshaker) to cover it's assault, and chin heavy flamers/heavy bolters to clear the assault point.

Call it the Warhorse class titan or something similar.

Archibald_TK
14-09-2007, 19:27
Sorry, still don't like it. Simply by having the cabin (and especially the access doors) down there, they're structurally weaker than anything you can compensate for, plus even if the transported personnel don't get killed when it takes a step, there's no inertial dampers in the 40k universe, they'll be unable to launch an assault within a decent time frame of the foot touching down (mainly to get out before defenders reinforce the breach point) simply because they'll have to be secured into the cabin to stop them bouncing around.

I also don't think things like Emperor Titans are fast or mobile enough to act as assault transport units anyway - something like that is much better as a combined firebase/Command and Control centre, with dedicated support units to help defend it.

If you're going to have "Titan Assault Transports", then either a Reaver with a Carapace mounted corvus pod, or even a new design specifically for that purpose (I'd go for quadrapedal to allow for a large transport cabin in the body - for examples, the GDI Mammoth from C&C Tiberian Sun, or an SW AT-AT with shorter legs and a wider stance), with spinal multi-launchers (or maybe an earthshaker) to cover it's assault, and chin heavy flamers/heavy bolters to clear the assault point.

Call it the Warhorse class titan or something similar.
The whole point of the Imperator being able to transport a company is not to deliver them into combat, they are not assault vehicles as you pointed as they will try to stay the farther away from their ennemies in order to use their superior weaponry at its best.
The whole point is that Imperator Titans are weak vs infantry if they manage to come close enough as they would be untargetable by its weapon systems and able to attack from inside the void shields.

The Imperator is able to transport a whole company so that :
1) They can fire at short range from the Titan or disembark and engage oponents on ground level.
2) If the ennemies want to enter the Titan they have to first vanquish the company that is defending it.
That's why the legs have the biggest transport capabilities of the whole hull. I'll quote myself here :


- Each leg bastion may hold up to 6 squads (2 per level).
- You have two barracks, one above each leg, wich may hold up to 3 squads each.
- The small towers may hold up to 1 squad each.
- The tall towers may hold up to 2 squads each.
- Everything else including the central tower hold only Adeptus Titanicus personnel.

The two legs of an Imperator transport as much troops as the whole citadel + carapace.

EDIT -
The NetEpic Adeptus Mechanicus Pdf still have the old Imperator datasheet, you can download it here (http://www.netepic.org/cgi-bin/gdCount/jumpurl.php?id=http://netepic.org/PRIMARCH/04A%20Adeptus%20Mechanicus%20Army%20Book%20v5%20Fi nal.pdf) and look for page 27 for a nice view of the Titan's structure.