PDA

View Full Version : Cloning the Emperor



O'kais
11-09-2007, 13:19
Just a thought that struck me, i assume cloning technology exists in the 41st milennium.

So wouldn't it be perfectly possible to clone the emperor into a less vegetable state?

pookie
11-09-2007, 13:26
Just a thought that struck me, i assume cloning technology exists in the 41st milennium.

So wouldn't it be perfectly possible to clone the emperor into a less vegetable state?

yeah they have the Tech to do that, look at marines...

but to answer your question not really no, a clone wouldnt really have the same 'inteligance' as the person cloned, ( im sure someone is going to come along now and disprove me)

Ikkaan
11-09-2007, 13:46
Basically, cloning probably wouldn´t copy the unique powers of the emperor. And, firstmost, nobody would be allowed to try it, the emperor is (ironically) the most prized relic of the imperium in his current state. Since nobody really knows if he is dead i doubt that anyone with a needle or genetic sampler is allowed near him. The danger of disrupting his fragile state of existence is too grave.

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 13:52
Cloning the Emperor (possible in the 40k universe, though there are some counter-arguments vis-a-vis Horus) would recreate the physical entity of the Emperor, but not the Emperor himself. Beyond the idea that the clone would not share the millennia-long experience of the Emperor, they would also not somehow contain or constrain the powers of the Shaman.

So, what would you have? For me, you would have a psychically very powerful individual (probably Alpha plus), who is genetically a "perfect" specimen (more handsome, stronger and more physically capable than the average human, but not superhuman). Whether they would be functionally immortal? That's a question I cannot decide which way to answer... ;)

Kage

Richter Kless
11-09-2007, 14:30
You do realise that cloning the Emperor is probably the gravest heresy I have ever heard off.
Not only is cloning illegal in the Imperium (yes there is some hypocrycie in this) but you also intend to perform this unholy ritual on the most sacred of beings.

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 14:37
Of course. Chances are that it would never happen, but it's always fun to speculate about things outside of the specific realm of the background. After all, what are the point of the background discussion forums? ;)

(As a pure anecdote, cloning technology was something that I once used as a catalyst for instigating a "civil war" in the Imperium. Fun thread, but there we go.)

Kage

Emperor's Grace
11-09-2007, 14:46
Isn't this the Thorite's dream? Make a new shell to contain him?

Build it and He will come :)

More OnT: Wasn't this attempted in the "cursed founding"?
(Thinking about that research station story with Fabius Bile)
Or am I misrememebering and it was Horus they tried to clone for that?

Dakkagor
11-09-2007, 14:53
the cursed founding was an attempt to create marines from first principals, to recreate the emperors work in creating the primarchs, and build both into a single weapons program capable of producing legions of cloned super soldiers to smash the imperiums enemies. It was then hijacked by Fabius Bile.

Atleast, thats what I like to think :p

Finnith
11-09-2007, 15:16
If you did whats to stop him turning straight to chaos/start flying around blowing stuff up for the hell of it.

The Emperor was born with the knowledge and wisdom of hundreds of shamans which had been reincarnating for generations. That would add up to several thousand if not hundreds of thousands of years worth of knowing:

"Its bad to blow up peoples brains unless you really have to and even then dont laugh or enjoy it."

How could you teach a child or an adult to play by the rules if they dont even apply to them?

O'kais
11-09-2007, 15:59
You do realise that cloning the Emperor is probably the gravest heresy I have ever heard off.
Not only is cloning illegal in the Imperium (yes there is some hypocrycie in this) but you also intend to perform this unholy ritual on the most sacred of beings.

ah yes but anything for the greater good of the imperium righty?

*edit*
Or say, maybe not clone the entire emperor. Just enough for parts to heal him for whatever ailment the GOlden Throne is doing for him.

Obermotz
11-09-2007, 16:11
Just in case they would clone an emperor embryo, wouldnt chaos gods immediately try to corrupt the process. We all know what happened when the last big clone experiments in the imperium were commited...

Dalenator
11-09-2007, 17:22
Or say, maybe not clone the entire emperor. Just enough for parts to heal him for whatever ailment the GOlden Throne is doing for him.

I guess if this happened it would be like the film "Young Frankenstien" ;)

heretics bane
11-09-2007, 17:42
the cursed founding was an attempt to create marines from first principals, to recreate the emperors work in creating the primarchs, and build both into a single weapons program capable of producing legions of cloned super soldiers to smash the imperiums enemies. It was then hijacked by Fabius Bile.

Atleast, thats what I like to think :p
Did they try to re-create the primachs? and old fabi hijacked it? ive never heard of that, could some one explain in greater detail please?

As for cloniing the emporer you'd have to get the permission of the custodians first and they dont talk alot

tangerinealtoid
11-09-2007, 17:47
Actually, the people in charge (the high council of Terra) really wouldn't want to clone the emperor. Cloning the emperor would inevitably cause a major civil war between the high counsel and the cloned emperor.

I can see why some rebel group or radical inquisitor might try it, as it would cause major (lower case "c") chaos in the imperium.

MrBigMr
11-09-2007, 17:53
yeah they have the Tech to do that, look at marines...
How do they fit into cloning?

And the last time the Imperium tried cloning, we ended up with Afriel Strains and they didn't end up very good.

Minister
11-09-2007, 17:59
Marine organs are grown in cloned slave bodies initially. Many (most?) servitors are also vat grown.

MrBigMr
11-09-2007, 18:18
Marine organs are grown in cloned slave bodies initially. Many (most?) servitors are also vat grown.
Don't they stick organs into new marines to grow inside them? As for servitors, not all are clones to my knowledge. Most are made from criminals and such, people who serve better as monkeys than humans.

But yes, the Admech does make vat grown things, but those are far from perfect clones, something you see in sci-fi, but some monstrosities that have a very limited function (as long as the body lives, it can support the geneseeds growing inside it). Afriel Strains were a project to make good clones, and even that crapped out, so no perfect clones.

The Emperor would be a freaky mutant. Reminds me a larp the other weekend where a friend played a less than perfect clone. He shaved his hair and eyebrows off. He did look freaky, but try working with him every day when he looks like a cancer patient.

Kage2020
11-09-2007, 18:34
Don't they stick organs into new marines to grow inside them?
No. Marines are implanted with developed zygotes. The zygotes themselves are grown within the bodies of "test slaves," though that doesn't necessarily mean clones:


Zygotes are then grown in cultures and implanted into human test-slaves. These test-slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious, they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop.
I cannot remember which WD this is a copy/paste from, but there we go. WD98 springs to mind for some reason.

Kage

El_Machinae
12-09-2007, 01:46
Since 40K has an idea of a 'soul', then one could imagine that the soul of the Emperor would be attracted to his new body.

But from a materialistic point of view, a cloned body has an unformed brain and would appear to be a baby in intellect while it learns in whatever society it's born in

pookie
12-09-2007, 09:21
How do they fit into cloning?

And the last time the Imperium tried cloning, we ended up with Afriel Strains and they didn't end up very good.

the 1st marines (or there equivelants pre Great Crusade) were developed with cloning techniques were they not? (iirc) -

Orion Vargus
12-09-2007, 10:43
There are radicalist sections of the Iquistision that want to clone the emperor and even worse some that want to clone horus to be the emperors new vesel...wtf. pretty crazy if you ask me be thats the inquistision for ya

LexxBomb
12-09-2007, 13:06
well if they really wanted to I guess they could always ask the Emperors chilldred (lol) after all they cloned Horus (12 or 13 times)

Emperor's Grace
12-09-2007, 19:11
the 1st marines (or there equivelants pre Great Crusade) were developed with cloning techniques were they not? (iirc) -

yeah but the Emp was there to guide them back then.

Captain Stern
12-09-2007, 19:58
The Emperor has a soul, a giant Chaos God sized one (not that the potency of the soul makes any difference in this argument really). If his body was to be cloned would another identical Chaos God sized soul automatically appear in the Warp to go with it (what good is he without it?)? In real life I always thought that the existence of a clone proves there isn't any such thing as a soul, but in 40K we know that most beings do possess souls, so how can you correlate the two?

Emperor's Grace
13-09-2007, 17:13
In real life I always thought that the existence of a clone proves there isn't any such thing as a soul

Way OffT but - how does that work exactly?

Logically, the existance of a biological clone does nothing to either refute or prove the existance of the soul.

Identical twins are biological clones and they don't seem to be soulless....

And clones can exist whether you believe they have two different souls or no souls at all.

doghouse
13-09-2007, 17:24
I think this'd make an interesting campaign scenario actually. Someone claims to have found the Emperor reborn but it turns out to be a clone supposedly made from some ancient Great Crusade relic (Emperor's toe-nail :D ) and the Ecclesiarchy send forces to kill it. Would make an interesting witch hunters/SOB scenario.

tangerinealtoid
13-09-2007, 17:30
Well, in "real world" terms, GW is probably never going to mess around with any story lines for 40k involving cloning the emperor in any real way, since that would shake up the status quo too much.

They tried it in Warhammer fantasy with Valten, ( the Emperor reborn), and then made him disappear in a vague way to re-set everything back to status quo.

So, the most we'd get is some summer campaign where everyone is fighting to save/kill the vat-born possible emperor. At the end of the campaign, there would be a big explosion and the emperor-clone would disappear, possibly destroyed, possibly not.

TheMartyr451
13-09-2007, 19:29
Blasphemy!!!!

Wyatt
13-09-2007, 19:38
The way I see it it's for the same reason why some people oppose quantum transportation.

Basically, the person is copied, then deleted at one end. (Well, not in those words but sort of like that. Please don't kill me quantum physicists!) People argue that it's murder, or that the "soul" does not get moved.

In cloning the emporer, the origional would end up being killed (most likely). Is the clone still the emporer? Sure he may look like him, may be just as powerful, but he's not actually "the" emporer.

Emperor's Grace
13-09-2007, 20:50
The way I see it it's for the same reason why some people oppose quantum transportation.

Basically, the person is copied, then deleted at one end. (Well, not in those words but sort of like that. Please don't kill me quantum physicists!) People argue that it's murder, or that the "soul" does not get moved.

In cloning the emporer, the origional would end up being killed (most likely). Is the clone still the emporer? Sure he may look like him, may be just as powerful, but he's not actually "the" emporer.

Partly the point though.

Is a clone the same person or is it just biologically identical? Are two cars that are exactly the same - the same car?

Whether or not the soul exists, would a copy be the same person?

There's a great ST:TNG episode about this with the two Rikers (one is a transporter clone as he was recovered from both ends during a difficult transport). Both start the same but ultimately are two very different people due to their variation of experience in the two places.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 20:51
For me it has never been a question of whether it is possible, or what it would do, but whether anyone would believe it if it happened. Trees falling in forests without anyone to hear them and all. And, after all, it's the hearing that is the important thing.

Kage

Ktotwf
13-09-2007, 20:58
It would be pointless to clone the Emperor- he wouldn't have had the experiences or insights that the original Emperor had had, and all you would probably be left with is a Super Space Marine.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 21:01
And therein lies personal preference. My question is, "Why?" Why would it be a "super space marine"? I know the answer, but it needed to be asked.

Kage

Ktotwf
13-09-2007, 21:04
And therein lies personal preference. My question is, "Why?" Why would it be a "super space marine"? I know the answer, but it needed to be asked.

Kage

Well, the Emperor is the genetic fountainhead of the entire Astartes family tree.

He is Papa, and since this is Sci-Fi, that means he iz da best.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 21:10
No, it doesn't mean that at all, more so if it is "sci-fi." It's just what you believe.

For me, though, and if you will forgive this? I cannot help but associate the word "munchkin" with so many of the current approaches to the 40k universe.

Ah well...

Kage

Ktotwf
13-09-2007, 21:13
No, it doesn't mean that at all, more so if it is "sci-fi." It's just what you believe.

Ah well...

Kage

Why doesn't it mean that?

You're not being very clear. Your usual means of argument is, "sigh, I am so frustrated. I want to wistfully make my point, and if everyone doesn't agree I sigh and leave and act like everyone is a douche for not agreeing completely."

EXPLAIN what you mean for once, in terms that can be debated.

Kage2020
13-09-2007, 21:20
Ktotwf. You remember those numerous times that people have pointed out your somewhat aggressive stance to posting? This is one of those points. Rein it in, Ktotwf, please.

With that said? You're right. I was merely pointing out that it is an assumption of some that because of the nature of the Primarchs the Emperor must have been way "better" than a Primarch. Because, well, how can something "better" than a Primarch be lesser than a Primarch? There are a number of possibilities there, but it assumes that you're not starting out with the "best of the best" premise.

Of course, it seems a standard premise of the 40k universe. Doesn't make it a good one, though.

Kage

LexxBomb
16-09-2007, 08:52
lol
i just keep thinking of the photo copy theory.
each time you copy something, the copy is more degraded.

emperor - primarchs - preheresy space marines - current imperial space marines.

with the tech in 40k a copy of the emperor would probably just end up as a normal human with out psychic powers.

Daemonslave
16-09-2007, 09:18
For all we know the Emperor's true body could be that of a puny old man, the only thing that we see is his psychic projections of how he wants to be seen.
Clone the body and, without the psychic power, we get just another feeble human.

Rockerfella
16-09-2007, 10:10
Good point.

I've always wondered if the Emperor was actually a giant primarch type character, or if he was just a 'normal' man able to enhance his own physicality to an enormous degree due to his immense psychic powers.

Sort of like 'I can't lift this boulder with my arms, but i can with my mind' type of thing.

Hmmm.

Born Again
16-09-2007, 10:26
For all we know the Emperor's true body could be that of a puny old man, the only thing that we see is his psychic projections of how he wants to be seen.
Clone the body and, without the psychic power, we get just another feeble human.

Heresy!

Actually, this whole thread is Heresy! Inquisitor!

Yes, it would be possible. It is mentioned in the fluff that Fabius Bile cloned Horus' corpse after stealing it from the Sons of Horus. However, Abaddon didn't look lightly on this and stormed the EC HQ, destroying all the clones. It's likely the Imperium would look at clones of the Emperor the same way.

Real World example: Imagine some archaeologist dug up some bones they said were Jesus', and they were going to clone him. Image the stink that would cause. Same thing, really.

Lord Merlin
16-09-2007, 13:22
They need to just frag the golden throne. The emperor is not immortal. He reincarnates himself after every lifetime he lives. But good ol Rogal had to freeze him so here we are, no emperor and utterly lost. He doesn't need to be cloned.

Emperor's Grace
17-09-2007, 15:37
Good point.

I've always wondered if the Emperor was actually a giant primarch type character, or if he was just a 'normal' man able to enhance his own physicality to an enormous degree due to his immense psychic powers.

Sort of like 'I can't lift this boulder with my arms, but i can with my mind' type of thing.

Hmmm.

My vote is for 'normal' man able to enhance his own physicality to an enormous degree due to his immense psychic powers.

I like to think of it in the terms of Green Lantern/Superman and the theories of how they amplify their body's ability.

"Energy" (psychic, magical, tech made, or sun powered) shaped by enormous "Will" makes almost anything possible.

Having read the end of "Fulgrim" regarding Ferrus, I'm inclined to extend this idea to the primarchs as well on a smaller scale.

<spoiler>

Ferrus appears to release multiple spirits on his death, if I remember correctly.

I'm almost inclined to think that maybe the Emp gave them power beyond his engineering by investing a few souls?

Essentially making them living Avatars? May explain how he found them in the vastness of space if he was "calling" to himself... Could also be interesting if that act was the initial "fracture/chink" of the manymind that furthered into his current state. May also explain why he was so reluctant to destroy them.

I don't know. I'll have to re-read and think about it. It could also just be artistic licence.