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Snarkling
29-08-2005, 23:48
Hi there,

I'm in the process of building a new Welf army, and I find myself faced with a conomdrum. I want to maximize the inherant mobility of the army by using exlusively fast cav and skirmishers, but I also want to include a strong magical base to the army. Here's what I'm working with...

4 units of glade riders
3 units of dryads
2 units of wardancers
1 unit of wild riders
spell weaver
spell singer
alter combat noble

The question is, how can I keep the mages safe without any units to stick them in? The only idea I've come up with is stick em' in a woods with the deepwood sphere, but then I'm hampered by the relative short range of their spells. If anyone has any ideas, please share them.

Thanks
Snarkling

Lord Anathir
30-08-2005, 01:24
put the mages on horse and have em ride beside the glade riders, i suppose. Its difficult in an army like welves.

Snarkling
30-08-2005, 03:28
I thought of that, but wouldn't that make them more vulernable to psychology from panic, not to mention hampering flees and redirects, as fast cav are wont to do?

shadowprince
30-08-2005, 05:13
put them near the wardancers so they can't be singeled out and remember hide them behind the skirmishes and calvary becuase most of their spells are cast upon frindly units.

Eldacar
30-08-2005, 07:59
Can mages even join a Wardancer unit? It seems blatantly unfluffy to me, but meh. No big deal, I suppose. It's not like they'd be any good in a Wardancer unit anyway, too dangerous for them. Scouts would work just as well as Wardancers.

You could put the mage on a unicorn, give them the Glamourweave Kindred, and stick him/her in a Forest Spirit unit like the Wild Riders. That'd be pretty good protection, I guess. Woodies have it a bit more difficult when it comes to placing mages, but it can be done.

Sinew
30-08-2005, 09:39
Woodies have it a bit more difficult when it comes to placing mages, but it can be done. I think this is why so many provisional lists are including a level 1 Branchwraith with a cluster of radiants as their backup magic user! She provides a couple of handy dispel dice and another power die, but has reasonable combat stats and can go in a unit of dryads.
As for keeping spellweavers/spellsingers safe it partly depends on the army you're playing against. My instinct would be to keep them out of combat units like Wild Riders - I'm not even sure if they can join them anyway - because it weakens the unit having a wizard take up a model in the front rank. If you're not facing cannon (or other artillery that can snipe) or magic that ignores targetting restricitons I'd say sticking mages on steeds is the way to go with short range elf magic. Use your high Movement and Leadership to keep them out of trouble.
If you are facing artillery/magic that can target lone characters you're only choice is to put the mages into units until you have nobbled the offending units. This isn't so hard with Wood Elves I'd say, you have plenty of fast, maneuverable units that can attack enemy mages and war machines, so you could easily deploy your mages with 2 units of glade riders and hang back. Then by about turn 3 when enemy mages are dead and war machines are wrecked, you can move them out and free up the units of glade riders you were using as bodyguard.

Eldacar
30-08-2005, 10:04
I think this is why so many provisional lists are including a level 1 Branchwraith with a cluster of radiants as their backup magic user!
Probably, yes. It works well, and provides decent magic defence.


My instinct would be to keep them out of combat units like Wild Riders - I'm not even sure if they can join them anyway - because it weakens the unit having a wizard take up a model in the front rank.
They can join them, but they just need to have the Glamourweave Kindred (which makes them a Forest Spirit, basically). Then mount them on a Unicorn, and you've got a mage who can stand up to a lot of what people might throw at him.

Scythe
30-08-2005, 12:18
I thought of that, but wouldn't that make them more vulernable to psychology from panic, not to mention hampering flees and redirects, as fast cav are wont to do?

Panic doesn't hurt mages that much. Remember panic tests are usually taken in the enemy magic phase or shooting phase, in both cases you've already added your dispel dice to the dispel pool. As long as you regroup next turn, you can cast spells as normal.

For fleeing from charges, it's a bit more tricky, since you lose the dispel dice in the enemy magic phase, but at least you can still cast in your own magic phase if you regroup (and have moved to a good position for your spells ;)).

Sinew
30-08-2005, 13:26
They can join them, but they just need to have the Glamourweave Kindred (which makes them a Forest Spirit, basically). Then mount them on a Unicorn, and you've got a mage who can stand up to a lot of what people might throw at him. Cool, that's a good idea in that case. The Unicorn will go some way to making up for the fact that the mage is pretty poor in combat, particularly on the charge.

Of course there is still danger in having a caster in a combat unit; both because he/she might die, and also might end up unable to cast spells some of the time because of positioning/LOS. Plus, the unicorn combo makes for quite an expensive level 2.

samw
30-08-2005, 13:58
I don't think a unicorn will help particularly. It's on a monster base so, while the MR2 will protect you from magic, it will make you a prime target for warmachines and missile fire.

Sinew
30-08-2005, 14:43
True but it's a forest spirit, so it has a 5+ ward...

Yanos
30-08-2005, 14:58
This is true. Your Mage gets the protection of (a) Randomisation and (b) 5+ Ward Save, which also extends to their T4 monster mount.

Do Unicorns not come on the same base size as Elven Steeds (ie don't they benefit from the 5" rule)?

samw
30-08-2005, 15:05
Nope, all monsters come on bigger bases now. This is GW intention. The older model came on a cav base but the newest available (that of the Fey Enchantress) is on a monster base, 50mm I believe. Im just thinking of the look on you face when the Wild Riders get into perfect position, and your opponent kills the unicorn reducing the unit's charge to 10".

Snarkling
30-08-2005, 15:18
Thanks for all of the advice so far everyone. I'm definately condering the branch wraith idea but am holding back due to the lost power dice. I'll only be able to field 8 with the archmage and his lacky as it is. More plausible to me seems Shadow Prince's idea of hiding them behaind the skirmishers, although won't they still be vulnerable to fast mage hunters that way?

samw
30-08-2005, 15:39
I think the simplest answer is to put your free wood as far forward as possible and in the middle of the board. Then sprint to it as fast as you can, and carry the deepwood sphere to ensure no pesky skirmishers come to flush you out. I'm doing magic heavy too and think this will be may main tactic.

Eldacar
31-08-2005, 07:15
Nope, all monsters come on bigger bases now. This is GW intention. The older model came on a cav base but the newest available (that of the Fey Enchantress) is on a monster base, 50mm I believe.
But the Wood Elves haven't recieved their Unicorn model, so it might not be on a monster base. It's most likely a false hope (and besides, there are other methods of defence), but it's an idea. A note, though: You don't have to put the mage on a unicorn. They can go onto an elven steed as well, which isn't on a monster base.

Scythe
31-08-2005, 09:37
Indeed. Until the WE receive a model or a FAQ I'm not entirely convinced. The Fey Enchantress is after all a special character, and there are some characters who received a monstrous base instead of a normal one (like Valten, or Tyrion). Probably not much hope, but still. And like Eldacar said, you don't have to use an Unicorn.

Sinew
31-08-2005, 14:18
The unicorn has however gone from 1W in the previous Ravening Hordes/revision list to 3W in the army book, and every other 3W steed has a large base not a cavalry base. Also there was a (fairly accurate) list released in White Dwarf ages back which clarified the base sizes for all warhammer troops/mounts etc, and the Unicorn was clarified in this to have a 50 x 50mm base.

Yanos
31-08-2005, 14:48
Groovy. On top of that, I've just managed to dredge from the online FAQ (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf) (shouldn't they replace that with the more recent one?) that any mount with more than one wound is counted as being larger than cavalry for the purposes of shooting. Elven steed it is then ;) !

mad dog
31-08-2005, 18:30
When you are going for a largely combat based fast moving army, why put so much offensive magic in the army ?? The spell weaver looks a bit out of place in such a fluid list, surely more combat oriented characters would be better

Snarkling
31-08-2005, 22:18
I think that an archmage is almost mandetory to provide majic defense for the army. Also, the Lore of Athel Loren really compliments assult armies due to its beef up spells

Eldacar
01-09-2005, 09:21
I think that an archmage is almost mandetory to provide majic defense for the army. Also, the Lore of Athel Loren really compliments assult armies due to its beef up spells
I disagree. A Branchwraith with Level 1 and the extra dispel dice from one of the Spites is just as good for magic defence as an Archmage. One or two Branchwraiths and a mage with the re-roll failed Dispel attempts item should be plenty of magic defence for little games. In big ones, you'll want to max out more, but in small games, the above is fine.

Sinew
01-09-2005, 10:09
One or two Branchwraiths and a mage with the re-roll failed Dispel attempts item should be plenty of magic defence for little gamesI agree, however that takes you back to the original question: where do you hide the scroll caddy? Against some opponents it's not a problem, the mage can just skulk out of sight. Against anyone with sniping artillery/weapons, or certain magic (life, Big Waaagh, heavens) that's not so safe. Against these foes I reckon the best route is to either go in a unit of wild riders on a steed (gives you a ward save, look out sir and Magic Resistance 1) or hide in a unit of Glade Guard/Glade Riders until you've knobbled the offending enemy units.

Scythe
01-09-2005, 10:16
Wild Riders usually engage the enemy head on, not the nicest position for a mage. Glade Riders keep their distance with their longbows most of the time, so I'd rather put a mage there.

Eldacar
01-09-2005, 10:21
I agree, however that takes you back to the original question: where do you hide the scroll caddy? Against some opponents it's not a problem, the mage can just skulk out of sight. Against anyone with sniping artillery/weapons, or certain magic (life, Big Waaagh, heavens) that's not so safe. Against these foes I reckon the best route is to either go in a unit of wild riders on a steed (gives you a ward save, look out sir and Magic Resistance 1) or hide in a unit of Glade Guard/Glade Riders until you've knobbled the offending enemy units.
Glamourweave, Elven Steed, hide in Woods for the mage. If somebody gets near you, just do a runner with your high movement. The Branchwraiths can just do what they normally do, which is run around with the Dryads, or if you want, they can hide in forests as well.

Sinew
01-09-2005, 10:41
Does Glamourweave give you any protection against magic? I'm just worried my level 2 hiding in the wood will get Master of the Woods cast on him and take 2D6 S5 hits. Granted I could dispel it, but if you have to throw dice into dispelling a 7+ spell to keep your mage alive it makes it harder to stop the other spells that hurt your army.

Scythe
02-09-2005, 09:23
I believe not... only a ward and the standard other forest spirit rules. It might be worth to note tough that Glamourweave does make you immuune to psychology, which means you can't flee from charges.

Eldacar
02-09-2005, 10:00
The ability to re-roll your dispels should be able to protect him. Just make sure that Master of the Wood never gets off. You could always put him on a unicorn and hide him in there, however, for the MR2 bonus.

Denryuu7777
02-09-2005, 13:51
Its worth noting, that points allowances, only an archmage is able to take the re-roll dispel item.

I'm sticking an archmage on a unicorn, which will hide behind other units, as Lore of Athel Loren only requires you to be in proximity to your own units, and Lore of Life lets you attack from terrain, making a moving screen as effective as i need.

The scroll caddy will just hide in woods.